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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust that's.

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Speaker 2: Three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight, or.

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Speaker 1: Showed us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust me, Trust trust me.

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Speaker 4: I'm like a squat person.

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Speaker 5: I've never lived.

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Speaker 2: To you, I've never If you think that one person

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Speaker 2: has all the answers, don't welcome to trust Me. The

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Speaker 2: podcast about cults, extreme belief and manipulation from two poorly trained,

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Speaker 2: unmarried people who've actually experienced it. I am Lola Blanc

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Speaker 2: and I'm Megan Elizabeth, and today is part two of

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Speaker 2: our interview with Tia Leving's, author of a Well Trained

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Speaker 2: Wife and former fundamentalist christian So last week we talked

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Speaker 2: about how she became involved with this type of Christianity

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Speaker 2: and married a man who abused her with no recourse

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Speaker 2: for her when she went to the church for help.

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Speaker 2: This week, we're going to talk about how motherhood began

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Speaker 2: to change her beliefs, initially making her actually more zealous.

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Speaker 2: She'll talk about the trauma of losing her baby in

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Speaker 2: the children's hospital, how it was hell on earth, and

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Speaker 2: how seeing women doctors and nurses in the hospital planted

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Speaker 2: seeds to help her imagine a world that wasn't completely

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Speaker 2: run by men.

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Speaker 1: Truly, such a fascinating story. She'll tell us about moving

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Speaker 1: somewhere even more isolated and joining an even more extreme

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Speaker 1: church as her husband became more and more authoritarian and terrifying.

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Speaker 1: You're going to have to read the book to hear

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Speaker 1: the details of how she escaped, but for today, we

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Speaker 1: will also explore her recovery process, as well as the

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Speaker 1: growing danger of Christian nationalism in the US. And it

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Speaker 1: should be stated that there is a very heavy trigger

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Speaker 1: warning for this episode.

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Speaker 3: It is a lot.

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Speaker 2: We will be discussing loss of a child and the

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Speaker 2: trauma that comes with that, as well as abuse as

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Speaker 2: well as abuse. So heads up, where are we get

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Speaker 2: in to it all with Tia.

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Speaker 6: Megan?

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Speaker 2: Please, can you kindly tell me your cultiest thing of

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Speaker 2: this week?

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Speaker 1: Okay, so I'm going with the cultiest thing this week.

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Speaker 1: That's a little bit lighter than normal because of our

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Speaker 1: heavy material this week. So I went to Disneyland on Friday. Yes,

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Speaker 1: you did the biggest cult of all freaking time, number one,

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Speaker 1: Like statues of Walt Walter Elias Disney everywhere, like they

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Speaker 1: you know, they would like turn down the lights and

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Speaker 1: his voice would become booming over the loudspeaker and be

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Speaker 1: like you must dream, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, Favery l Ron Hobbert.

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Speaker 1: Listen. All I am saying is the lines to get

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Speaker 1: food are so long, the like rides don't close until midnight,

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Speaker 1: so you're there till one a m. They're keeping us

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Speaker 1: hungry and tired and crazy and delusional off of love.

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Speaker 1: And by the end of the night you would do

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Speaker 1: anything that they.

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Speaker 6: Asked to be.

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Speaker 2: I mean, listen, it's a fun cult, but there are

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Speaker 2: certainly there, there is certainly way to take being a

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Speaker 2: Disney adult to an extreme, as we have discussed before.

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Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, the Disney adult thing doesn't bother me.

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Speaker 1: It's it's more just like, uh, how deep this Disney

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Speaker 1: thing has rooted into our psyche?

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Speaker 7: Is?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: I mean it's shaped how we yeah, totally, how we

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Speaker 2: think of love, how we think of society.

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Speaker 6: What about you?

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Speaker 1: What was the culziest thing that happened to you this week?

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Speaker 2: Mine is also light. Oh good, we're doing some light

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Speaker 2: in a in a dark world. Okay, So I've been

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Speaker 2: catching up on The Bachelorette nice, which I originally was

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Speaker 2: not gonna watch this season because, like, let's be honest,

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Speaker 2: if anyone watches The Bachelorette, I wanted Maria to be

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Speaker 2: the Bachelorette. But I know what you're talking about. But

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Speaker 2: I know my Bachelorette fans will understand. But I got

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Speaker 2: on board and I'm into Gen. Now I'm not into Gen.

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Speaker 2: I support Jen as the Bachelorette, but so so in

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Speaker 2: the episode I just watched, which I'm late to the party,

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Speaker 2: you guys, so forgive me. But in the episode that

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Speaker 2: I just watched, there's a guy who whose name I

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Speaker 2: don't remember so I won't.

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Speaker 7: Say it who.

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Speaker 2: He's like clearly very insecurity, seems super inexperienced, he's never

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Speaker 2: been in love. And then at some point he starts

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Speaker 2: talking about manifestation, and then that whole day he literally

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Speaker 2: starts wearing a leather jacket, starts being really assertive, keeps

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Speaker 2: calling her his wife. They have never like hung out

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Speaker 2: one on one. At this point, he already had like

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Speaker 2: professed that he was starting to fall in love with

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Speaker 2: her when he had talked to her for like thirty

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Speaker 2: minutes Max, and he's like walking around and like stealing

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Speaker 2: her away, and like he writes on his jacket like

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Speaker 2: Jen's husband, and like gives her one that says his

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Speaker 2: name's wife. And it is so it's so embarrassing because

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Speaker 2: like clearly, like somehow he was giving himself a pep

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Speaker 2: talk because he's feeling low, and he was like, you

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Speaker 2: just have to manifest it. If I just like act

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Speaker 2: like she's my wife, she'll be my wife. And you

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Speaker 2: can see his like eyes getting wider and he's like

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Speaker 2: it's like it feels like almost like psychotic levels of believing.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and you can just got a little manic with

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Speaker 1: it maybe, And I'm sure the producers were all too happy.

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Speaker 2: I am sure the producers' yes, Like like I cannot

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Speaker 2: imagine what is happening to your psyche when you were

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Speaker 2: in that environment and the only people you have to

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Speaker 2: talk to their producers or like your competition. So like

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Speaker 2: I do not blame him, but it was fascin I

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Speaker 2: mean I kind of blame him. It was crazy and

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Speaker 2: all the other guys, what you're doing, this is so weird.

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Speaker 2: But it was like it immediately turned her off and

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Speaker 2: she was like, you know what, like I'm just.

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Speaker 5: To her.

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Speaker 6: Just being like you're my wife.

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Speaker 2: Now turns out that doesn't work, and it just it

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Speaker 2: just made me think how much we get entrenched in

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Speaker 2: these various beliefs, and I know there's a lot of

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Speaker 2: different opinions on manifestation, and how much of it is

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Speaker 2: just like, you know, influencing how you go about your

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Speaker 2: day and like priming yourself. I personally don't believe in

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Speaker 2: the magical version of manifestation. He very much did, and

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Speaker 2: it came back to bite him in the ass.

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Speaker 6: And on this timeline I'm just.

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Speaker 2: Kidding, Yes, the one we're in, the only one we

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Speaker 2: know of. Yes, he made it added the opposite effect

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Speaker 2: that he was intending you guys just be real people,

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Speaker 2: just be real.

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Speaker 6: That's all.

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Speaker 7: That's all.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, you know, weird believes whatever, it's fine. I'm sure

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Speaker 2: it'll be fine.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he'll be fine, he'll be fine.

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Speaker 2: Good luck to him. Whatever his name was that I forgot,

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Speaker 2: let's call him many Manny. I hope you find real

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Speaker 2: love and are your real, true, honest self without having

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Speaker 2: to manifest someone into loving you.

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Speaker 1: Do you know who is her real honest self?

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Speaker 6: Who TiO lovings?

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Speaker 3: Should we talk to her?

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Speaker 2: Yes, let's do it. I would love to hear about

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Speaker 2: motherhood and how that sort of transformed you as a person.

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Speaker 2: Before Clara, you were taught to not listen to your intuition,

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Speaker 2: not listen to your instinct. Talk about that experience and

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Speaker 2: how that shaped you.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, motherhood's a very interesting piece of tea. I think

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Speaker 4: it's the thing that saved me. I think it's probably

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Speaker 4: the undoubtedly the most important vein in my life. I

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Speaker 4: always wanted to be a mother, like I remember being

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Speaker 4: this very small child dreaming about being a mother. And

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Speaker 4: so it's really convenient when you want what the patriarch

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Speaker 4: he wants for you. I leaned into that for a

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Speaker 4: good many years of like, well, I want what they

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Speaker 4: want anyway, you know, So it's it's okay to do

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Speaker 4: what they say because I we're compatible. I knew how

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Speaker 4: to be a mom like tactically speaking, I'd been a

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Speaker 4: babysitter since I was eleven. I was certified. I babysat

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Speaker 4: for lots of kids. I made lots of money. I

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Speaker 4: worked as a nanny. I was familiar with newborns and

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Speaker 4: infant care, and so I knew how to take care

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Speaker 4: of babies. I knew what kind of mother I wanted

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Speaker 4: to be. I had rehearsed this for nineteen years. I

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Speaker 4: wasn't worried about any of that high control religion through

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Speaker 4: a wrench into it, because what I considered perfectly fine

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Speaker 4: and normal a baby is going to cry at night

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Speaker 4: when it's a newborn because they don't sleep for very

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Speaker 4: long because they need to eat, like that's just normal

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Speaker 4: humanity was a problem in high control religion because now

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Speaker 4: you have a man who has to sleep, and he's

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Speaker 4: already violent, and if he gets overtired and grouchy, and

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Speaker 4: if you have this like unpredictable factor in your home,

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Speaker 4: you're going to increase violence. And so my maternal instinct

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Speaker 4: to protect my baby was what originally drove me to

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Speaker 4: find a solution for something that hadn't been a problem.

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Speaker 4: In a hell your situation, it would have just been

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Speaker 4: me and my baby. I would have gotten up and

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Speaker 4: fed him, would have been no big deal. So that

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Speaker 4: led us to this program called baby Wise, which was

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Speaker 4: preparation for parenting at the time, and it's gary as

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Speaker 4: I was growing kids God's Way, and it's an infant

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Speaker 4: feeding schedule routine, but it is also predicated on this

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Speaker 4: idea of original sin and that the baby is manipulating

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Speaker 4: you by crying, and so it's it's got a really hateful,

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Speaker 4: dark theology in it, but it's also the gateway book

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Speaker 4: that lead sets the stage is John MacArthur's Church, and

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Speaker 4: it's it sets the stage for the rest of the

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Speaker 4: parenting materials that come on down the line. It's what

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Speaker 4: put me into contact with the women who became my

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Speaker 4: mentors and ultimately changed the kind of mother I always

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Speaker 4: saw myself being and wanted to be like I didn't.

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Speaker 4: It turned me into this high control person that was

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Speaker 4: like regulating my children in ways that I never wanted

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Speaker 4: and that changes to when you know, when you get

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Speaker 4: past the infant management stages, it changes the reallylationship that

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Speaker 4: you have with your children. And that became a really

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Speaker 4: big point of contention in my heart because I didn't

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Speaker 4: want to have this dynamic with my children and I

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Speaker 4: didn't want to be indoctrinating them and molding them for

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Speaker 4: an ideology. I wanted them to become self actualized, fully developed,

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Speaker 4: healthy children that became adults and went on their own

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Speaker 4: way and knew what they wanted for themselves, And so

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Speaker 4: I could already tell by the time they were young

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Speaker 4: children that what I want for them is that odds

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Speaker 4: for with recipe that we're following, that's not the cake.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I feel like it's so important to note

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Speaker 1: how much fear had become a part of your life

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Speaker 1: at this point, Like if you know there's an empty

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Speaker 1: house when you're younger, you've been left behind. Jesus came

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Speaker 1: back and you've been left behind, and that was a

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Speaker 1: big fear for me as well. So I totally relate

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Speaker 1: to you there. And so this is somebody might say, well,

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Speaker 1: just don't do that stuff to your children, but you're

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Speaker 1: being taught that this is how you save their souls.

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Speaker 1: They will go to hell if you don't do this

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Speaker 1: stuff in a very real, non metaphorical way.

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Speaker 5: You know.

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Speaker 1: So that must have just been so much cognitive dissonance.

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Speaker 1: I can't even imagine.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, until I would say, that really stuck with me

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Speaker 4: until I actually experienced what I would consider hell on Earth,

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Speaker 4: and when the when the actual suffering became so bad

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Speaker 4: tangibly that the eternal promise of it faded because I

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Speaker 4: couldn't contend with what what my reality had become.

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Speaker 6: Right, Well, let's talk about that. So yeah, tell us

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Speaker 6: about Clara.

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Speaker 4: So Clara Bara, my little sweetie. She was three, three

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Speaker 4: under three. She was going to be my third pregnancy

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Speaker 4: in a year.

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Speaker 5: I was terrified to have.

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Speaker 4: Three under three because I knew I was going to

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Speaker 4: be outnumbered my baby I got. My second baby was

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Speaker 4: only eight months when I got pregnant, and so all

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Speaker 4: of it was just very overwhelming, and.

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Speaker 5: I was trying so hard.

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Speaker 4: I was in the home birth movement at that time,

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Speaker 4: and my mentors were really pushing to have no pediatricians

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Speaker 4: or kind ofcologists involved, no vaccines, any kind of mandatory reporters.

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Speaker 5: So if you know my work.

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Speaker 4: Online, I have a series of videos called ordinary Parenting Things.

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Speaker 4: My Gothired funding mentors said I could skip in order

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Speaker 4: to have a quiver full.

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Speaker 5: And this is that period of time.

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Speaker 4: They were my mentors in Bill Gothard, and they were

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Speaker 4: telling me, you don't need to go to the doctor.

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Speaker 5: You don't need to like the doctors are just going

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Speaker 5: to tell you it's not safe to have the baby

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Speaker 5: at home. And doctors are just going to tell you that.

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Speaker 4: You shouldn't have your babies so close together, and you

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Speaker 4: really need to be using contraception, and so just don't

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Speaker 4: go to the doctor because you don't want to hear

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Speaker 4: that kind of messaging and that's anti God.

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Speaker 5: And so I was trying so hard.

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Speaker 4: To be obedient, but I had this nagging feeling that

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Speaker 4: something was wrong with this baby or was going to

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Speaker 4: be wrong with the birth, or something something was going

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Speaker 4: to be off, and that I needed a doctor.

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Speaker 5: And I'll skip through all those.

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Speaker 4: Details, but long story short is that she was born

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Speaker 4: with a heart defect and she did end up in

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Speaker 4: spent her whole life in a hospital, which was two months,

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Speaker 4: and when she died, I it was the first time

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Speaker 4: I'd lost somebody. It was the first time I had

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Speaker 4: come really face to face with all the promises and

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Speaker 4: platitudes that they had offered me had failed, and also

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Speaker 4: their rejection of the actual experience. They wanted me to

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Speaker 4: move on. I could have like an appropriate grieving period,

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Speaker 4: but then I was supposed to get pregnant again, move on,

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Speaker 4: give God the glory that she was in heaven, and

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Speaker 4: just pick up where I left off and continue.

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Speaker 5: And I could not do that.

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Speaker 8: The chapter in which you describe the experience of being

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Speaker 8: in the hospital with her and then finally getting the

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Speaker 8: news is just absolutely devastating, and I can't imagine that

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Speaker 8: would just change anyone's life completely.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that chapter.

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Speaker 1: I'm dehydrated just from crying from reading it again. It's

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Speaker 1: funny that you said earlier that it kind of had

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Speaker 1: you doubled down on your beliefs, because how I read

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Speaker 1: it was like, oh, she you came to break you

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Speaker 1: free from all of it a little bit.

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Speaker 4: She really did. She broke me free, and that it

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Speaker 4: wasn't under I wasn't passively under their control anymore. And

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Speaker 4: I think that I have to be honest about and

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Speaker 4: contend with that. When you're in patriarchy, they're breeding perpetuators,

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Speaker 4: and I became I have a season of my time

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Speaker 4: where I was a perpetuator and I thought I was

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Speaker 4: in control of it. I thought I had the freedom

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Speaker 4: that Clara offered me. It had given me a spine

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Speaker 4: and had given me a power and a backbone to

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Speaker 4: stand up for what was important for me to me,

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Speaker 4: but that I could also manage it. And I think

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Speaker 4: a lot of women are in a place where they

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Speaker 4: know that there are some abusive practices, but they are

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Speaker 4: in control of picking and choosing what those are and

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Speaker 4: it's not going to hurt them the way that it

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Speaker 4: hurt other women.

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Speaker 5: It's a lie.

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Speaker 4: You're not You can't be that effective against an abusive system,

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Speaker 4: and it is sinking into your family in ways that

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Speaker 4: you aren't aware of right now, and you are, you're

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Speaker 4: complicit in a systemic harm that will come for you

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Speaker 4: one day. But yeah, my immediate years after Clara, I really.

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Speaker 5: Thought I was.

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Speaker 4: I thought I was in control a little more than

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Speaker 4: I was. But where I was able to see clearly

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Speaker 4: and her name does mean clarity, is all of that

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Speaker 4: sheep following that happened beforehand, that was done. I was

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Speaker 4: no longer just following along in a blind spell. I

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Speaker 4: was taking charge where I could and questioning things and

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Speaker 4: rebelling and talking online to women.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, before we get into that, which is one of

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Speaker 1: my favorite parts, it's like you say in the book,

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Speaker 1: like the children's hospital is a completely different world. It's

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Speaker 1: a completely different universe, and you're no longer like, it's

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Speaker 1: no longer like what are my bills? Did I get

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Speaker 1: a speeding ticket? As my husband not at me? It's like,

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Speaker 1: who give us a shit, I'm going to save this baby.

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Speaker 1: So it feels like in that moment, like so much

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Speaker 1: in doctrination was just kind of stripped from you and completely.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: When I was surrounded by women who had not been indoctrinated,

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Speaker 4: which was the first time in my life I had

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Speaker 4: been in an environment where women were doctors and nurses

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Speaker 4: and social workers, and they didn't know what I was

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Speaker 4: talking about. When I was just like, I don't know,

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Speaker 4: quote something off scripture, and everybody would resonate with it.

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Speaker 5: In my old life, they'd be like, what what did

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Speaker 5: you just say?

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Speaker 4: I don't know where that's from, right, I was like,

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Speaker 4: wait a minute, in the world out here and no

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Speaker 4: one's burning up and dying, and yeah, these are not Jessabelle's.

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Speaker 2: That glimpse into the outside community that you've been told

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Speaker 2: is so bad is so important for so many people,

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Speaker 2: even though obviously it came in the most harrowing way

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Speaker 2: possible for you.

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Speaker 6: One thing that I.

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Speaker 2: Want to note, because I think it's really interesting, is

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Speaker 2: that you guys actually changed churches.

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Speaker 6: Multiple times, multiple times.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's important to say, only because there

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Speaker 2: tends to be so much fixation on like, oh, this

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Speaker 2: church is the bad church. Oh that church is the one,

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Speaker 2: you know, But you're right within this like larger patriarchal

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Speaker 2: fundamentalism ideology, and you're moving around and going to more

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Speaker 2: high control churches as you go, but they're all kind

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Speaker 2: of in the same sphere.

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Speaker 6: And Alan was like hunting for more structure.

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Speaker 2: Is that right?

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Speaker 5: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: And if you choice it backwards, there's some common denominator

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Speaker 4: theologians Rushdoony in the Seven Mountain Mandate that says where

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Speaker 4: Christians are to have dominion over these seven pillars in

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Speaker 4: society that includes like government and entertainment, education. I don't

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Speaker 4: know all the seven off the top of my head,

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Speaker 4: but that's who Gothard built his ministry on. And then

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Speaker 4: Gothard's ministry was multi denominational, so that's very important for

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Speaker 4: the spread of fundamentalism in America. And then the spinoff

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Speaker 4: pastors each went in their own vein in. A hallmark

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Speaker 4: of evangelical patriarchy is that men get involved in this

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Speaker 4: high control, but they also don't want to be controlled themselves,

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Speaker 4: and so when they bought up against each other, they

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Speaker 4: split and form another church.

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Speaker 5: And so it's like this and then in the middle

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Speaker 5: of it you have the.

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Speaker 4: Family integrated church movement, which is like more Dale, Partridge

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Speaker 4: and Home church, where people are going home because they

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Speaker 4: can't even find a congregation that's like minded enough.

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Speaker 5: They and the head of the household is also the

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Speaker 5: spiritual leader of the home.

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Speaker 4: So you don't really need a pastor at that point

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Speaker 4: because Dad's got you covered, right.

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Speaker 2: So how much of the control that you are experiencing

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Speaker 2: do you attribute to Alan versus the churches versus fundamentalism

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Speaker 2: in general.

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Speaker 4: Oh, it's interesting to tease a part because he was

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Speaker 4: mentally ill, and the church teaches things that feed off

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Speaker 4: of a narcissistic model and authoritarian model. There is a

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Speaker 4: part of this that's just like a perfect soup. But

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Speaker 4: when you talk to survivors and you hear that those

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Speaker 4: are actually traits and features, they're not bugs. Covert narcissism

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Speaker 4: and authoritarian abuse and all of that seems to be

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Speaker 4: in almost every dynamic. And when you couple that with

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Speaker 4: lack of mental health care and lack of psychological awareness. Sure,

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Speaker 4: we can look at this and say, well, this is

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Speaker 4: an example of an extreme It gets less extreme when

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Speaker 4: you listen to other people say that happened to me too,

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Speaker 4: or so much of this was relatable, or I see

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Speaker 4: how my situation could have easily become yours because the

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Speaker 4: ramp up was the same, you know, just just swap

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Speaker 4: out a few factors.

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Speaker 2: And there's no accountability within these systems, right, it's essentially

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Speaker 2: enabling this abuse.

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Speaker 6: So whatever, if it were a healthy.

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Speaker 2: System, if it weren't like a high control patriarchy, there

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Speaker 2: might be some breaks in place that are like, hey,

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Speaker 2: you're not supposed to do that, go to counseling.

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Speaker 6: But instead of everyone's like, good job, keep doing that

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Speaker 6: abuse thing.

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Speaker 3: We love it.

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Speaker 4: Yes, yes, And they also took away counseling and created

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Speaker 4: new andthetical counseling. But the biblical counseling movement is running

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Speaker 4: in parallel to this. So even when pastors say we

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Speaker 4: will send you to counseling, they mean we'll send you

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Speaker 4: to another gatekeeper that will reflect back into the system.

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Speaker 5: You're not stepping out of this world for therapy.

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Speaker 4: So they spend a lot of time shunning licensed therapists

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Speaker 4: and psychology and mental health services in general because they

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Speaker 4: want you to stay in their world. And so biblical

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Speaker 4: counseling is a whole other lane we could talk about,

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Speaker 4: but it just points you right back in keeps you

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Speaker 4: in the fold.

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Speaker 1: I want to get into how much stricter things got

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Speaker 1: with Tulip and how your clothing changed and.

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Speaker 6: Stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: But one of my favorite parts of the book is

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Speaker 1: when your friend says to you, like you guys are

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Speaker 1: talking and everything, it seems like you're kind of in

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Speaker 1: a play, which is also how I felt growing up

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Speaker 1: and a religion like that. Like I remember when I

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Speaker 1: read the book The Emperor's New Clothes.

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Speaker 3: Do you remember that.

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Speaker 1: I remember feeling like I can't believe I'm allowed to

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Speaker 1: read this because this is what I feel like.

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Speaker 3: The world is offering around me. But your friend, you know,

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Speaker 3: everybody's just like keeping up the thing. They're never cracking.

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Speaker 3: The women are like, yep, this is great.

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Speaker 1: And one of your friends, you you call it, broke

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Speaker 1: the fourth wall and turned to you and was like,

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Speaker 1: don't go off a grid with your husband.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And that gave me goosebumps.

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Speaker 1: That like, at the end of the day, we're all

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Speaker 1: just kind of like playing into it and when it

436
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Speaker 1: really comes to danger, like I believe there was a

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Speaker 1: moment when you were giving birth and you needed like

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Speaker 1: actual women's knowledge and advice that we have, like we

439
00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,360
Speaker 1: have to like snap out of it to actually survive

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Speaker 1: and take care of ourselves and be like, just for

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Speaker 1: a second, I'm gonna dip out of the patriarchy so

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Speaker 1: I can actually do some shit.

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00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:34,880
Speaker 4: And then.

444
00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:45,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, not really interesting, but yeah, what was tulip?

445
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:49,440
Speaker 1: And how did you get deeper and moved to Tennessee?

446
00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:50,439
Speaker 3: And what did that look like?

447
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:51,160
Speaker 5: Yeah?

448
00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,679
Speaker 4: So tulip And it's just Calvinism. It's the it's the

449
00:21:54,720 --> 00:22:02,000
Speaker 4: tenets of cabalism. It's total depravity, unlimited atonement, irresistible grace. Uh,

450
00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:04,760
Speaker 4: limited God, I'm gonna I'm gonna choke on it.

451
00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:05,840
Speaker 6: We haven't written somewhere.

452
00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:09,280
Speaker 2: Yeah we have it, Oh, preservation of the saints.

453
00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:11,080
Speaker 5: What's the l limited?

454
00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:14,120
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, you got it all right.

455
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:16,080
Speaker 2: Which to me it sounds like just a collection of

456
00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:18,320
Speaker 2: random words, like I'm staring.

457
00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:19,640
Speaker 6: At them all trying to understand.

458
00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:24,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, the gist is that human beings are completely depraved.

459
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:28,680
Speaker 5: Jesus God chose some of us to be saved. If

460
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:31,600
Speaker 5: you're chosen, you can't resist it, even if you wanted to.

461
00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:34,600
Speaker 4: He only died for the ones that are going to

462
00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,399
Speaker 4: ultimately accept him. He didn't waste any blood, and that

463
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:39,320
Speaker 4: if you have a problem with it, you'll be preserved

464
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:41,560
Speaker 4: until the end and you'll get through it. If you

465
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:43,800
Speaker 4: have a problem with what with all of it, with

466
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:48,480
Speaker 4: with being depraved, with life, with suffering, those are good

467
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:50,440
Speaker 4: because you'll be preserved.

468
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:53,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, dying to self is what we call that. Not fine.

469
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:58,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, Cavinism gets really dark really fast. It's it's the

470
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,720
Speaker 4: theology of the Reformation Catholics, you know, Protestants, so it's

471
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:06,280
Speaker 4: really old. There are some, i would say, less diabolical

472
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:10,000
Speaker 4: expressions of Calvinism, like say in maybe some liberal Lutheran

473
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:14,679
Speaker 4: churches and the USA Presbyterians are also technically Calvinists, but

474
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:19,280
Speaker 4: they don't really emphasize the doctrine. That's different in Covenant

475
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:26,360
Speaker 4: Reformed Presbyterian or Orthodox Performed PCA Presbyterian. They all deeply

476
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:29,679
Speaker 4: espouse that theology. And so what was happening is my

477
00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:33,520
Speaker 4: husband was looking again for more solutions for his out

478
00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 4: of control life. It was always always felt out of

479
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:39,400
Speaker 4: control for him, and he discovered that at the same

480
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,280
Speaker 4: time that the evangelical movement was kind of moving towards

481
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:46,199
Speaker 4: Reformation and towards towards this reformed doctrine. We see it

482
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 4: reflected in a Ginger's book Counting the Cost, because she

483
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:53,720
Speaker 4: her book is called Becoming Free Indeed, and what she

484
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:57,719
Speaker 4: did was she and her husband moved from Gothard's Baptist

485
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:02,520
Speaker 4: doctrine to Reform doctrine, and she it feels like freedom

486
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:06,520
Speaker 4: to her because they read books, they're more intellectual, they

487
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:08,960
Speaker 4: get to wear pants, some of the women get to work,

488
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:12,119
Speaker 4: and they feast, they drink alcohol, and so some of

489
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:15,320
Speaker 4: the liberations are there that make it feel like freedom.

490
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:17,960
Speaker 5: But actually the theology is way darker.

491
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 4: And in my story, that's definitely when it got it

492
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:26,879
Speaker 4: got more bleak. Total depravity is an awful thing to

493
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 4: think of yourself when you already have no self worth.

494
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:31,359
Speaker 6: Yeah.

495
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:36,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, So you guys moved and became way more isolated,

496
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 2: and he became way more controlling of you in the

497
00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 2: church that you were in now was way more controlling.

498
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 6: What was that experience like for him?

499
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:47,200
Speaker 5: He was so happy, like this was the pursuit of.

500
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:52,879
Speaker 3: He was doing great.

501
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,600
Speaker 5: He was doing great. It was the pursuit of having

502
00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,000
Speaker 5: like minded believers. You know. So he had found this

503
00:24:59,119 --> 00:24:59,880
Speaker 5: church in Tennessee.

504
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,399
Speaker 4: You've kind of sabotaged our lives so that we had

505
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:04,359
Speaker 4: no choice but to move. We end up in this

506
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:06,120
Speaker 4: congregation that I didn't.

507
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:07,159
Speaker 5: Know was what it was.

508
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,200
Speaker 4: What it was was a bunch of very conservative, high

509
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:15,680
Speaker 4: discipline homeschooling families. Everybody homeschooled there. Everybody thought the same,

510
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 4: dressed the same, behave the same. They openly discussed wife's banking.

511
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:22,919
Speaker 4: I didn't know any of this until after we signed

512
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 4: a covenant of membership that we were like in for life,

513
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:31,200
Speaker 4: and he felt like we were living like Martin Luther's

514
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:36,680
Speaker 4: best time. We celebrated Reformation Day in Luther costumes, we

515
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:45,720
Speaker 4: raised mugs of beer. We had this beautiful, very manly

516
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:49,439
Speaker 4: boys and very feminine girls, and it was it just

517
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 4: looked kind of like a utopia on the surface. And

518
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 4: ironically we met on the grounds of an asylum. Always

519
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 4: it was the Seventh Day Adventist Mental Hospital. Wow, and

520
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:12,960
Speaker 4: they in the asylum was in the name, So yeah, yeah,

521
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 4: I was.

522
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 5: In so deep.

523
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 4: I call it the cult without walls. This entire movement,

524
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,080
Speaker 4: I call it the cult without walls because it does

525
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:25,080
Speaker 4: expand beyond denominational lines. But this part of my story,

526
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 4: I was in the closest to what people traditionally think

527
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 4: of as a cult because we had walls, we had

528
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 4: a covenant membership, we had strict rules, and we had

529
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 4: a membership that was separate from the rest of our community.

530
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:42,119
Speaker 1: I can't even imagine what it's like to try to

531
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 1: submit to that level. Alan even had you sign a

532
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 1: contract that was like, if you know, a judge gets involved,

533
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,359
Speaker 1: we agreed that I can spank you. And a woman

534
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 1: that you knew went roller skating naked through a hurricane

535
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:55,160
Speaker 1: and everyone.

536
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 3: Was like, why would you do that? And You're like,

537
00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 3: why wouldn't she? Like fine, mine.

538
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,399
Speaker 1: What's interesting and what's a silver lining kind of is

539
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 1: that you did have this beginning in Michigan where you're

540
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:16,960
Speaker 1: out in nature, you're connected to your authentic self and

541
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:21,159
Speaker 1: that's so amazing. But then you also have these childbirths

542
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:25,199
Speaker 1: that also connect you to your body and get you

543
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 1: to trust yourself, and that was just such a beautiful

544
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 1: juxtaposition to me. I guess it was just interesting that

545
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 1: this quiverfall, which just means have as many kids as

546
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 1: you can. I think movement was also helping you keep

547
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 1: connecting back to self.

548
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 5: Yeah.

549
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,920
Speaker 4: I think those were experiences that were outside of patriarchal control,

550
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:48,679
Speaker 4: and because I chose alternative birth methods, I was not

551
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 4: surrounded by that. If I had had I did have

552
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 4: two hospital births, and they were pretty pretty male dominant

553
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:59,480
Speaker 4: experiences that didn't quite get into the graphic details in

554
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 4: the book with But my home births especially were women centric,

555
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:08,360
Speaker 4: and they were beyond the realm of traditional birth practices,

556
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:12,360
Speaker 4: which are very focused on the physicians, comfort needs, structure,

557
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:13,920
Speaker 4: hospital system, you.

558
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 5: Know, external.

559
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 4: And so because they were these windows of empowerment for me,

560
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,200
Speaker 4: they built upon one another, you know, like I had

561
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:24,399
Speaker 4: had a reference in my mind to go through, like,

562
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,120
Speaker 4: but you did that thing, but you can do this,

563
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,359
Speaker 4: like loo, look at what you can do, which I

564
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 4: would not have had if we'd chosen other ways. So

565
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 4: I'm grateful for them.

566
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's such an amazing takeaway that could go differently.

567
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 2: I feel like if someone felt pressured into having children

568
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 2: or did not have any good experience with the birth itself,

569
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 2: I mean, it's amazing that it at least like gave

570
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 2: you a glimpse back into nature, into like connection with

571
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 2: your body and.

572
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 6: Who you are at your core, beautiful, How did you

573
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,520
Speaker 6: begin to question and deconstruct.

574
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 4: Well, we have this big escape which I guess we

575
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 4: won't spoil here on the show.

576
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 5: You read the book, this is very big, very big.

577
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 5: Catharsis parting of.

578
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 4: The ways and I ended up in full trauma recovery.

579
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 4: I mean it was it was a visceral experience, which

580
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 4: I think the physicality probably needs more discussion, like I

581
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 4: really think we should. We talk a lot about religious

582
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 4: trauma online these days, and it can get easy to

583
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 4: toss it around just as a phrase without realizing that

584
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 4: comes with a body body count that has like shock,

585
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 4: traumatic shock is its own thing to contend with.

586
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 5: It has an impact on the body.

587
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 4: The decisions that are made, the reflexes that we go

588
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 4: through when we're in shock and shot can last a

589
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 4: very long time. I think I was probably in shock

590
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 4: for easy year and a half and it was sort

591
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 4: of a daze and a lot of things were happening

592
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 4: as a result of the escape and the divorce itself

593
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 4: that I was having to contend with while trying to

594
00:29:56,160 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 4: recover and mother my children, and you know they were

595
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 4: there were very active ages. They were ten and ten

596
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 4: to two, and so it was very demanding time I

597
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 4: had to learn. I have no education in my story,

598
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 4: so I don't know if you picked up on that.

599
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 4: I never went to college. So I had to make

600
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 4: up a career. I had to find work, I had

601
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 4: to parent my kids. I had to fight off of

602
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 4: a violent man who didn't take well to being left.

603
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 4: I had to fight the legal system and to detangle

604
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 4: the things that got me there in the first place,

605
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 4: you know. And I think again, the Internet came and swept.

606
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 4: I was just at This happened in a miraculous time

607
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 4: for me, because the vocabulary around trauma, recovery and trauma

608
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 4: in general was expanding. Religious trauma was expanding. At the

609
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 4: same time, deconstruction was becoming a hashtag. Social media was

610
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 4: on the scene, like a lot of things that had

611
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 4: not been available to me five years before even were

612
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 4: And so I healed kind of in tandem with this recovery.

613
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 5: Language, and.

614
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 4: It became a long process, you know, and certainly didn't

615
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 4: involve in a bubble. It was and I reached out

616
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 4: all the time and found other people like me. But

617
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 4: I also took a very adamant, stubborn approach to my

618
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 4: healing of I had given enough of my life to this.

619
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 5: I'm not gonna I'm not gonna.

620
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 4: Allow whatever I have to do to put a dividing

621
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:22,719
Speaker 4: line between then and now so that I can have

622
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 4: the rest of my life be the way I want

623
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 4: it to be. I was willing to do, and I

624
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 4: don't hear that reflected a lot in the survivor community.

625
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 4: To hear more of an acquiescence to being broken. And

626
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 4: that's my new fight now. I don't accept that they

627
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 4: do not get to have you. And you have more

628
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 4: autonomy and agency than you realize. So that's where I

629
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 4: put all my energy now is into reclamation.

630
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 2: I so love that, and I agree with you. I

631
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 2: think once we start to understand that something that happened

632
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 2: to us was traumatic, it can be so easy to

633
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 2: be looking backwards for so long and forget to be

634
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 2: living and growing. And obviously there's a grieving period and

635
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 2: there's a recovery period and you have to heal, but

636
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:06,959
Speaker 2: it is so important to reclaim your life and not

637
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 2: let the rest of your life be defined by those experiences.

638
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 6: Obviously everyone's timeline is different.

639
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 2: Though, without giving anything away, I just also want to

640
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 2: say how much your story is a testament to the

641
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 2: power of community and having support when you are exiting

642
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 2: a group or a high control.

643
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 3: Situation, especially a group of women, especially.

644
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 6: A group of women.

645
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 2: And it is really, really beautiful, and I hope everybody

646
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 2: reads the book.

647
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:29,960
Speaker 6: I want to.

648
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 2: Talk about Christian fundamentalism in politics because you have a

649
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 2: lot to say on this front. And to somebody who

650
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 2: might not have grown up in a community like this,

651
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 2: why do you think it is genuinely dangerous?

652
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 6: And not stopping with the reversal of Rob Wade.

653
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 4: Oh okay, well, let's work backwards. It's not stopping with

654
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 4: Roe v. Wade, because there's never enough in the patriarchy.

655
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 4: There is never a point where you will be small enough,

656
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 4: quiet enough, obedient enough, dutiful enough. They need us to

657
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 4: go backwards. They need they need that strictness. And you

658
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 4: can always look to the way the house is. Their

659
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 4: model for leadership is how they govern families. So all

660
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 4: they do is scale it up. So if you want

661
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 4: to know how they're going to govern the country, you

662
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 4: just need to look at how they govern their homes.

663
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 5: And there's no abortion in those homes.

664
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:26,000
Speaker 4: There's no queerness, there's no mommy doesn't have a job,

665
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 4: there's no autonomy, there's no let's discuss this as a family.

666
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:34,480
Speaker 4: There's none of that. There's no democracy, there's none of that.

667
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 4: So I spent a lot of time pointing back to

668
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:37,720
Speaker 4: the family example.

669
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 8: Roe v.

670
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 4: Wade was never going to be the thing because it

671
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 4: on the next thing underneath it is contraception. And the

672
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 4: thing that one's alongside contraception is divorce, and underneath that

673
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 4: is suffrage. And so in suffrage, divorce, and contraception have

674
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 4: all been in the conversation in the past four years.

675
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 4: They that's what they're moving towards, and so we have

676
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 4: to look like beyond personalities. This is not just about

677
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 4: one candidate. This is about in a fifty year structure

678
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:11,399
Speaker 4: to make America a dominionist Christian theocracy that starts way

679
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:12,720
Speaker 4: back at the beginning of my story.

680
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 5: I mean, I so went there on purpose.

681
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 4: The evangelical movement was politicizing and becoming more fundamentalists back

682
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:22,360
Speaker 4: in the eighties, and what we're experiencing today is the

683
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 4: fruit of that. They raised the generation of politicians. They

684
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 4: raised a network and an infrastructure and a scaffolding that

685
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 4: can be in place, and the manifestation of that is

686
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 4: Project twenty twenty five and the one hundred and ten

687
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 4: conservative organizations that helped architect it, so you have the

688
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 4: frameworks in place regardless of who's the candidate.

689
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,279
Speaker 5: If they swap out Trump, they'll swap.

690
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 4: Him out with somebody that they can get their patriarchal

691
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 4: practices through. They have depth in the court, they have

692
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 4: depth in Congress. Their checks and balances have been removed.

693
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 4: Democracy has been degraded again. Why there's no democracy in patriarchy?

694
00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 4: And they've spent time with One of my little hills

695
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 4: to die on this week has been the argument that

696
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:07,320
Speaker 4: we're a constitutional republican not a democracy. Is a perfect

697
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 4: line that's been fed to evangelicals their whole life, and

698
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 4: it's technically there's a truthness to that. We are a

699
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:17,480
Speaker 4: constitutional republic, which is a kind of democracy.

700
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 5: There are more than one kind of democracy.

701
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 4: We have a democratic process that elects our representatives.

702
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 5: But they don't get that deep with that.

703
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:29,279
Speaker 4: What they're doing is they're offering a paradigm, a little platitude,

704
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 4: so that they can dismiss the depth behind it, and

705
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 4: they will degrade your confidence in an election, so they

706
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 4: don't really want you voting, and they don't I was

707
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 4: not allowed to vote, so I totally one hundred percent

708
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 4: believe that women will lose the vote if the patriarchy

709
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,879
Speaker 4: comes to power. They've already floated it. The RNC with

710
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 4: in twenty twenty floated the concept of head of household voting,

711
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:54,920
Speaker 4: and so they've been introducing it and getting people acclimated

712
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:57,839
Speaker 4: to the idea to where it's now a serious conversation

713
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 4: that people have now on social media. I mean, one

714
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:02,800
Speaker 4: of the weirdest things is that the stuff that I

715
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,719
Speaker 4: used to talk about in secret is hashtagged now and

716
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 4: just talked about in the open, like it's totally normal

717
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 4: that we would be talking about women not having contraception

718
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 4: in twenty twenty four.

719
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:13,239
Speaker 5: Are you kidding me?

720
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 7: How?

721
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:15,760
Speaker 5: How did that happen?

722
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 1: And people are talking about it in like a positive way,

723
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 1: like no birth control?

724
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 3: Right.

725
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:24,360
Speaker 4: Yes, there's this other movement, this this whole Elon Musk

726
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 4: thing with the.

727
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 3: Populators and populate.

728
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,959
Speaker 4: It's the same thing, but the trad wife movement. Again,

729
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,799
Speaker 4: there's another. What I used to think was like my

730
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:37,399
Speaker 4: secret special Christians in my church is now on Instagram

731
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 4: being hawked as an ideal lifestyle and being defended as

732
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 4: a positive. And they're number one, They're fools. They don't

733
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:46,840
Speaker 4: understand the roots of that, where it came from and

734
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:49,800
Speaker 4: who was there first. But number two, they're not listening

735
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,360
Speaker 4: to the survivors and outcomes and those that's all available.

736
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:57,760
Speaker 4: The survivors of trad traditional homes of the nineties are

737
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:00,440
Speaker 4: active and online now and their parents to and they

738
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 4: know what it's like to be a prinified older daughter,

739
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:06,280
Speaker 4: for example, or what it's like to have strict obedience

740
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:09,279
Speaker 4: culture and purity culture rampant in your homes. We have

741
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:11,840
Speaker 4: proofs for that now that maybe we didn't have in

742
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:14,840
Speaker 4: the nineties because we thought we were being trailblazers. But

743
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 4: they're definitely there and so we don't have to rely

744
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:18,759
Speaker 4: on the promises.

745
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 2: It is very scary to me how quickly it seems

746
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 2: the Overton window of what we are used to politically, socially,

747
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 2: culturally changes, Like it was kind of unthinkable that Roe

748
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 2: would be overturned, and not only has it been overturned,

749
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 2: but now there's a very serious political discussion about limiting

750
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:44,400
Speaker 2: contraception or removing contraception, never mind the medical necessity of

751
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 2: abortion for so many women whose lives.

752
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:47,319
Speaker 3: It will save.

753
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 2: It feels dystopian, but is actually really happening like these

754
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 2: are actual policies being put forth by actual lawmakers who

755
00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:58,320
Speaker 2: actually have these beliefs.

756
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:01,880
Speaker 4: They actually are and I have memory of being thirteen

757
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 4: fourteen in the pew hearing them preach on Sunday, we

758
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 4: need to elect the right people to office who will

759
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,799
Speaker 4: appoint the right Supreme judges Supreme Court judges, so that

760
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:14,920
Speaker 4: we can overturn row. I mean, they would preach that

761
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:18,120
Speaker 4: openly on Sunday. So all I'm seeing is the thing

762
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:20,600
Speaker 4: that they've been telling us they would do for forty

763
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 4: years is what they did.

764
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:24,840
Speaker 5: And one of the reasons why they get.

765
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:27,920
Speaker 4: Away with that is because we tell ourselves they're not

766
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:30,000
Speaker 4: going to do the thing they say they're going to do.

767
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:32,640
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, it seems like they will. It seems like

768
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 3: will receivable.

769
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 2: Yeah.

770
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,279
Speaker 1: What would you suggest to women who were in the

771
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 1: spot that you are in? Is there any advice you

772
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:42,040
Speaker 1: can give looking back?

773
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 5: Yeah?

774
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,440
Speaker 4: Two a woman who is like me. One of the

775
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 4: reasons why I do this work is so that there

776
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:51,839
Speaker 4: will be a voice, There will be a hand reaching back,

777
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 4: there will be an example of how you can get

778
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:57,200
Speaker 4: out and how worth it it is to get out.

779
00:38:57,239 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 4: And that's still a voice that you hear inside of

780
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:01,840
Speaker 4: you that's telling you this is off, this is wrong,

781
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:04,440
Speaker 4: this is not good for your children. You are becoming

782
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:06,480
Speaker 4: the person you don't want to be listened to her,

783
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 4: and that there are women out here who will catch you,

784
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,360
Speaker 4: and that you will you will be okay, And point

785
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 4: for point, everything they told me would.

786
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 5: Happen that was bad hasn't happened.

787
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 4: I've had community, have had support, I've had acceptance, had opportunities.

788
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:20,320
Speaker 5: My children are fine.

789
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 4: We've are definitely fallout issues from recovery, but they're not patriarchs.

790
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:28,280
Speaker 4: My children are not fundamentalists, and they're and my daughter

791
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 4: has opportunities and she has the life that I wanted

792
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 4: her to have, which was a life on her own terms.

793
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,360
Speaker 4: And so I try to be like a proof text

794
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 4: for that of like, you can do it. What I

795
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 4: tell other women who are watching people. And I think

796
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 4: we're going to see this as we see more of

797
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:51,359
Speaker 4: a collective awakening. You mentioned the Emperor's New Clothes. There's

798
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 4: a point in the Emperor's New Clothes story where the

799
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:57,840
Speaker 4: crowd wakes up and realizes, oh, yeah, the Emperor is naked.

800
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:00,840
Speaker 5: So they collective catch on.

801
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:05,240
Speaker 4: And I think it's really important as people who are

802
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 4: informed about this and know about this world and what

803
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 4: they're really up to, that we try to be non

804
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 4: judgmental to the people waking up and just relate that

805
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:17,840
Speaker 4: we all sometimes fall under spells, we all sometimes getting

806
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:20,800
Speaker 4: caught up in systems that are they feel out controlling,

807
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 4: and that we are all trying to come out of

808
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 4: it and just be gracious and accepting and helpful and

809
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 4: ask how can we help be a friend to those

810
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:32,560
Speaker 4: who need to need it, and also space to change

811
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 4: your mind. I mean, the people that I reached out

812
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 4: to the most often were the ones I knew probably

813
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 4: wouldn't have agreed with everything that I was living, but

814
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 4: they were safe, they didn't judge me, and if I

815
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:45,719
Speaker 4: asked them for help, they would be there to help.

816
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:48,720
Speaker 4: So like, try to keep the lines of communication open.

817
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:51,880
Speaker 4: Slip my book where you can. You know, people have

818
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:54,480
Speaker 4: joked they're taking the jacket off and they're slipping it.

819
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:56,279
Speaker 3: Into people's Really.

820
00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 4: Yes, it's been mentioned to be in women's study programs,

821
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 4: gender studies.

822
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 3: It should be everyone should read this book.

823
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:07,440
Speaker 1: A well trained wife, A well trained wife, and then

824
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 1: just one loss off the cough question. It's crazy, but

825
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:13,479
Speaker 1: you know we go through this experience with you where

826
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:17,280
Speaker 1: you are living a life that is just so controlled,

827
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 1: you feel so empty. What has been your biggest moment

828
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:23,280
Speaker 1: of freedom since leaving all of this behind?

829
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:26,360
Speaker 4: Ooh, that's a great question and so hard to quantify.

830
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 4: I will say a big one, A a big giant

831
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:30,759
Speaker 4: freedom was one.

832
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:32,120
Speaker 5: Well, I'll just list a couple.

833
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 4: Marching at the Women's March in twenty sixteen was massive

834
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:38,840
Speaker 4: because I had not even been allowed to vote, and

835
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 4: now I was like holding a sign about democracy and

836
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,360
Speaker 4: screaming it was so great. My check Taylor's on and

837
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 4: I was just so chummed, so good. Another big one

838
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:50,919
Speaker 4: was when the book arrived and I got to hold

839
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:55,359
Speaker 4: it in my hands. It's a tangible milestone, like this

840
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:57,440
Speaker 4: is my story and I can hold this period of

841
00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:00,200
Speaker 4: time in a tangible format. And then I read the

842
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:05,040
Speaker 4: audio book in my own voice. I realized I've externalized

843
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:06,960
Speaker 4: the story in a way that I don't have to

844
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 4: carry it inside my body anymore. I felt like one

845
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 4: hundred pounds went away. It was just like I just

846
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:16,440
Speaker 4: it just left me, and it and it's it exists.

847
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 4: It's like if anything happens to me, it exists. I

848
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 4: don't have to be the guardian of this story anymore.

849
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 5: It was huge.

850
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:25,839
Speaker 6: That's inspiring. You're making me want to write more. I'm

851
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:28,520
Speaker 6: answer definitely.

852
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:30,759
Speaker 5: The answer to that question is always yes.

853
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:32,160
Speaker 1: Yes.

854
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:35,320
Speaker 2: Where can people find you and your book?

855
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:35,879
Speaker 5: Yes?

856
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:39,240
Speaker 4: Okay, so finding me is easy online. I'm Tia Leving's

857
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:42,360
Speaker 4: writer on all the social platforms, my websites Tia levings

858
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:42,960
Speaker 4: dot com.

859
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 5: My book is.

860
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:48,800
Speaker 4: Available anywhere you buy books, uh in audible, hardcover and digital.

861
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:53,760
Speaker 4: And my substack, where I deconstruct fundamentalism in our headlines

862
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:57,400
Speaker 4: culture in the family is Tia Leving's dot substack dot com.

863
00:42:57,520 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 2: All right, y'all go buy the book. It is called

864
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:03,799
Speaker 2: A Well Trained Wife, My Escape from Christian Patriarchy, and

865
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:07,840
Speaker 2: once again it is beautifully written and absolutely worth the read. Megan,

866
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 2: what are your because we know these are not the

867
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:12,279
Speaker 2: ones you would These are not your cults that you

868
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:15,600
Speaker 2: would join. No, what are your takeaways from this episode?

869
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:18,719
Speaker 1: I mean, I think we touch on it briefly in

870
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:23,720
Speaker 1: this episode, but just how different things can be different

871
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 1: triggers for different people. So to put that better, having children,

872
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 1: I think doubles down religion for a lot of women,

873
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:36,520
Speaker 1: or losing a child might make them depend more on

874
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 1: their faith. That's a story we've seen several times doing

875
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:44,920
Speaker 1: this podcast. But for her, having children was one of

876
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 1: the things that really connected her to her body. And

877
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:51,600
Speaker 1: she had that midwife who was kind of like a hippie,

878
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 1: growing herbs and like speaking this language that she unconsciously

879
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:01,800
Speaker 1: recognized as truth. And and you know, having these children

880
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 1: just connected her to our body in a way that

881
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:09,879
Speaker 1: nothing this brainwashing around her could from.

882
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 3: It's so wild.

883
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:12,799
Speaker 6: I know, I loved hearing that.

884
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:14,839
Speaker 2: It made so much sense when she said it, like

885
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 2: that is the most in touch you can be with

886
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:22,279
Speaker 2: like yourself, your body, nature, like the feeling connected to

887
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 2: all things, you know, because you're a part of this

888
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:29,040
Speaker 2: like natural process. But of course, like when for so

889
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:32,400
Speaker 2: many other people, when you're told forever that this is

890
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:35,080
Speaker 2: your calling, this is what you were meant to do

891
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 2: on this earth, that can deepen your faithor and for

892
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:41,839
Speaker 2: her it did at first. And Yeah, some of these

893
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 2: things it can be so easy to want to generalize

894
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:47,320
Speaker 2: how they impact people, but truly it's such an individual

895
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 2: experience of what leads people to indoctrination and what.

896
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 6: Leads people out of indoctrination.

897
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:56,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, there was one line in the book that she

898
00:44:56,520 --> 00:45:00,920
Speaker 1: said that was just I don't know, it broke my brain.

899
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:03,520
Speaker 1: Or she was talking about giving birth and her husband

900
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 1: was like over her and you know, watching her and

901
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:10,600
Speaker 1: controlling the situation. And then when there started to be

902
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 1: kind of a complication, all of the women had to

903
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 1: like give each other these looks of like, oh, it's

904
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:18,799
Speaker 1: time for like us to really do the work now,

905
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:20,680
Speaker 1: like we have to get rid of him. But before that,

906
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:23,920
Speaker 1: they were all willing to like play into this illusion

907
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 1: that he had all the answers, you know what I mean.

908
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 1: But like it was kind of she explained it as

909
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:32,440
Speaker 1: like a fourth wall, like breaking it and being like, Okay,

910
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:34,560
Speaker 1: thank you, we have to do this now for.

911
00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:36,440
Speaker 2: Real, right, you know.

912
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 1: It's just so interesting. So I can't recommend this book

913
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 1: highly enough. I think it's one of the most beautiful

914
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:44,799
Speaker 1: things I've ever read.

915
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 2: I just love stories of like this, like implicit unspoken

916
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:56,799
Speaker 2: sisterhood among women who like understand the needs and the moment,

917
00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 2: and like, obviously, like this is not always the case.

918
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:01,359
Speaker 6: For women or ever.

919
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:04,920
Speaker 2: Women are people, and yeah there's always you know, people

920
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:08,320
Speaker 2: of conflict. But I just love, I do love those stories,

921
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 2: and I love that that feeling that like okay, it's

922
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:17,680
Speaker 2: time for the men to go now, yeah, we gotta focus.

923
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, and of course like yeah, my dad delivers babies

924
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 1: and he's very good at.

925
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:25,600
Speaker 2: It, and there's you know, of course of course.

926
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:29,160
Speaker 1: But yeah, this story in particular was just like well,

927
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:31,600
Speaker 1: well woa, uh it was perfect.

928
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:35,279
Speaker 2: It feels almost like mystical, you know, mystical completely yeah,

929
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:39,719
Speaker 2: completely witchy. Yeah yeah yeah, yeah, just yes, I love it.

930
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:43,200
Speaker 2: That's the kind of uh, that's the kind of peak

931
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:45,960
Speaker 2: experience that that I that I enjoyed.

932
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:52,880
Speaker 6: Yeah yeah yeah, So hopefully to get more about it.

933
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:57,200
Speaker 2: So all I let's same for that, y'alls. You know, sisterhood,

934
00:46:57,360 --> 00:46:59,440
Speaker 2: I don't know, let's do it.

935
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening to another episode. Please

936
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:05,080
Speaker 1: remember to read us five stars and leave a review

937
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:05,759
Speaker 1: if you love us.

938
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 6: If you don't, don't worry about.

939
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:10,520
Speaker 2: It say away. Also remember you can buy merch from

940
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:13,279
Speaker 2: us at bit dot l y slash trust me Merch.

941
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:16,200
Speaker 2: There are some really fun T shirts on there, as

942
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:18,719
Speaker 2: well as other products, so go check it.

943
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:22,600
Speaker 1: Out please, and as always, remember to follow your gut,

944
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:25,000
Speaker 1: watch out for red flags.

945
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:27,360
Speaker 2: And never ever trust me.

946
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:38,480
Speaker 7: Bye bye.

947
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:44,960
Speaker 2: Trust me is produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and

948
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:46,320
Speaker 2: Steve Delemator.

949
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:47,880
Speaker 1: With special thanks to Stacy Para.

950
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:50,239
Speaker 2: And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

951
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:53,319
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

952
00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:56,879
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at

953
00:47:56,920 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 1: trust Me Cult Podcast.

954
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:02,080
Speaker 2: I'm Ula Lola on Intagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

955
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:05,400
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Abraham

956
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:06,640
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.

957
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word