WEBVTT - Domino Effect: How Tesla Is Winning the Charging War 0:00:00.680 --> 0:00:03.480 This is Dana Perkins and you're listening to Switched on 0:00:03.720 --> 0:00:08.039 the BNEF podcast. When it comes to public electric vehicle chargers, 0:00:08.160 --> 0:00:11.240 the US has nearly one hundred and fifty eight thousand 0:00:11.360 --> 0:00:13.480 in the whole country. Now, this might seem like a 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:15.880 big figure, but when you set it against Europe's six 0:00:16.040 --> 0:00:19.320 hundred and ninety three thousand and China's colossal two point 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:22.439 one million, well then you start to realize the scale 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:24.760 of the task that lies ahead as the US readies 0:00:24.800 --> 0:00:28.680 itself for the upcoming electric vehicle era of transport. So 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:32.559 looking back, in twenty twenty one, the Biden administration announced 0:00:32.600 --> 0:00:37.040 the National Electric Vehicle Infrastructure Formula Program or NEV for short. 0:00:37.240 --> 0:00:40.720 They had the intention of aiding the installation of charging infrastructure, 0:00:40.800 --> 0:00:43.320 which would be required for the mass rollout of electric 0:00:43.400 --> 0:00:47.360 vehicles across the States. However, complicating matters in the US 0:00:47.600 --> 0:00:50.960 included the charging network itself. It's a patchwork quilt of 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:53.840 different entities competing against one another, and at the heart 0:00:53.880 --> 0:00:55.960 of the battle has been an issue around whether your 0:00:56.040 --> 0:00:59.280 vehicle is compatible either with the Combined Charging System or 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:03.200 CCS can not, or Tesla's own North American Charging Standard 0:01:03.200 --> 0:01:06.880 equivalent now. Tesla was early in its national role out 0:01:06.920 --> 0:01:09.800 of charging stations in ultrafast chargers, so it became a 0:01:09.840 --> 0:01:13.520 dominant player. But with other electric vehicle brands now gaining 0:01:13.520 --> 0:01:16.959 in popularity, this begs the question can anyone compete with 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:19.960 Tesla's charging network or will they have to join them? 0:01:20.240 --> 0:01:22.800 To find out more, on today's episode, I speak with 0:01:22.840 --> 0:01:26.200 beanuf's head of electric vehicle charging, Ryan Fisher, as well 0:01:26.200 --> 0:01:29.000 as a senior associate on our EV team, Corey Kanter. 0:01:29.360 --> 0:01:31.800 The topics that we discuss include the number of fast 0:01:31.880 --> 0:01:35.560 and slow chargers across a variety of different US charging networks, 0:01:35.640 --> 0:01:38.800 who owns them, their failings and also their successes, and 0:01:38.840 --> 0:01:41.319 the subsidies on offer at the federal level as a 0:01:41.319 --> 0:01:44.440 part of the Nevy scheme. And lastly, Tesla's competitors and 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:48.320 whether anyone can actually really challenge them or will their 0:01:48.400 --> 0:01:51.920 rivals need to accept the North American charging standard as 0:01:51.960 --> 0:01:55.200 the national standard. As always, if you like this podcast, 0:01:55.280 --> 0:01:58.080 if you subscribe, you're going to receive updates on future episodes, 0:01:58.160 --> 0:01:59.800 and if you give us a review, it'll make us 0:01:59.840 --> 0:02:02.560 more discoverable by others. But right now, let's jump into 0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:16.360 our conversation with Ryan and Corey. Corey thank you for joining. 0:02:16.200 --> 0:02:18.240 The show today, Thanks Dana, happy to be. 0:02:18.200 --> 0:02:19.880 Here, and Ryan, thank you for being here. 0:02:20.040 --> 0:02:20.560 Thanks Diana. 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:24.320 So we're going to talk about charging networks, specifically in 0:02:24.360 --> 0:02:26.600 the United States, where there's a lot of activity going 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:29.200 on at the moment. So can you first explain what 0:02:29.240 --> 0:02:32.720 the NEVY is and then let's get into what that 0:02:32.800 --> 0:02:34.400 means for charging in the US. 0:02:34.880 --> 0:02:37.880 So, yeah, it's seven point five billion of funds from 0:02:37.919 --> 0:02:42.040 the government, split into two main funds, five billion for 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:46.160 highway largely highways fast charging, and then another two point 0:02:46.200 --> 0:02:51.120 five billion for initiatives in other areas called the Discretionary Grant. 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:52.639 Some more details on that to come. 0:02:53.040 --> 0:02:56.760 And to add to Ryan's point, the NEVY funding in 0:02:56.800 --> 0:02:59.160 the kind of five billion dollar pot is controlled a 0:02:59.200 --> 0:03:02.320 lot by the state, and so they've already begun setting 0:03:02.320 --> 0:03:04.680 out their plans and we're beginning to see the early 0:03:04.760 --> 0:03:08.400 stages of charging companies actually be selected by state, so 0:03:08.440 --> 0:03:11.040 Ohio and May and there are two examples. And so 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:14.800 even though the infrastructure law that began the funding of 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:17.640 the NEVY program passed almost two years ago, as of 0:03:17.680 --> 0:03:20.560 this November, we haven't really seen any chargers built out 0:03:20.600 --> 0:03:22.919 yet so there's still a lot of work to do. 0:03:23.400 --> 0:03:27.680 So before we get into any source of details about 0:03:27.680 --> 0:03:29.840 what we think will have in for the future of 0:03:30.240 --> 0:03:33.120 charging networks in the US, because there is so much 0:03:33.160 --> 0:03:35.720 focus on this at the moment, let's talk about the 0:03:35.760 --> 0:03:39.480 current state of play. So what does the existing charging 0:03:39.520 --> 0:03:42.120 infrastructure look like in the US, and you know what 0:03:42.240 --> 0:03:43.280 companies dominate it? 0:03:43.640 --> 0:03:46.119 Yeah, So the infrastructure in the US, I think there's 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:49.520 around one hundred and fifty hundred and sixty thousand connections. Now, 0:03:49.640 --> 0:03:51.839 if you think about this kind of fast versus slow charging, 0:03:51.880 --> 0:03:53.320 I want to take an hours, am I taking minutes 0:03:53.360 --> 0:03:55.560 to charge? Something like one hundred and twenty five thousands 0:03:55.640 --> 0:04:00.320 or thirty five thousand split. California maybe unsurprisingly dominate in 0:04:00.400 --> 0:04:04.080 terms of the total states. I think New York is second, 0:04:04.160 --> 0:04:06.640 but quite far behind. In terms of the company, Teslar 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:09.160 is kind of the key one out there installing, spending 0:04:09.200 --> 0:04:11.920 the money putting in that fast infrastructure. And obviously we've 0:04:11.920 --> 0:04:13.760 heard a lot about the deals with the other auto 0:04:13.800 --> 0:04:16.240 makers and I'm sure we'll talk about that later today. 0:04:16.279 --> 0:04:20.040 And then you've got others EVgo also putting in charges. 0:04:20.080 --> 0:04:23.720 Electrify America, who's funded by VW and then Chardpoint, who 0:04:23.880 --> 0:04:25.880 is kind of this weird mix in that they're selling 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:28.240 the hardware and the software but they're not ultimately the 0:04:28.320 --> 0:04:31.280 operators of that infrastructure. But many other examples, but they're 0:04:31.320 --> 0:04:31.839 the big ones. 0:04:32.400 --> 0:04:34.240 So Corey, maybe you could shed some light on what 0:04:34.279 --> 0:04:36.520 the current state of play is in California from a 0:04:36.600 --> 0:04:37.720 charging standpoint. 0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:41.839 Yeah, I mean, in terms of California specifically, what's interesting 0:04:42.000 --> 0:04:45.800 is the fact that it's a fairly robust EV ecosystem. 0:04:46.120 --> 0:04:48.440 For listeners of the show, to give you a sense, 0:04:48.520 --> 0:04:51.640 California in the first half of this year saw about 0:04:51.680 --> 0:04:54.960 a twenty five percent nearly one in four vehicles sold 0:04:54.960 --> 0:04:57.120 as electric, and so at BNF when we talk about 0:04:57.160 --> 0:04:59.919 electric vehicles, we're talking battery, electric and plug and how 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:03.760 productric vehicles. California has about one third of all of 0:05:03.800 --> 0:05:08.440 the electric vehicle chargers public charging connectors built as of 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:10.760 the end of twenty twenty two. I've been working recently 0:05:10.839 --> 0:05:12.960 on a piece that folks should expect to see sometime 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:16.279 this month around different EV state markets, and California actually 0:05:16.320 --> 0:05:19.000 looks quite good in terms of EV's per charging connector, 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:21.359 around twenty seven to twenty eight or so and so 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:24.479 it's not perfect. California has its own challenges to deal 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:26.240 with in terms of the grid and in terms of 0:05:26.560 --> 0:05:29.839 ensuring that higher level of EV adoption can coexist with 0:05:29.920 --> 0:05:33.640 a grid that's fairly reliable on renewable energy. But they 0:05:33.680 --> 0:05:37.440 have a robust charging build out, including a state sponsor 0:05:37.520 --> 0:05:40.400 of charging infrastructure, and they're even thinking ahead about what 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:42.360 the NEV program means for them. So one thing that 0:05:42.400 --> 0:05:45.560 California does that's interesting with NEV is at the kind 0:05:45.600 --> 0:05:48.560 of national level. NEV has a minimum requirement of one 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:52.480 hundred and fifty kilowatts for many of their highway fast chargers. 0:05:52.560 --> 0:05:54.800 California is even looking at some sites where they're going 0:05:54.800 --> 0:05:57.560 to require three hundred and fifty kilowatts for high volume 0:05:57.839 --> 0:06:01.520 EV charging sites. So California, just like any country, has 0:06:01.560 --> 0:06:04.400 its challenges, but they've been fairly robuts with their EV 0:06:04.560 --> 0:06:05.320 charging build out. 0:06:05.560 --> 0:06:07.400 The other thing about California we dicussed this when I 0:06:07.400 --> 0:06:08.919 was on the podcast with Jay last time, but is 0:06:09.120 --> 0:06:12.920 the Low Carbon Fuel Standard. The LCFS basically credits deficits 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:15.360 built by the kind of oil and gas majors having 0:06:15.400 --> 0:06:18.359 to then buy them off people who saw low carbon fuels. 0:06:18.400 --> 0:06:22.200 So if you're producing or selling electricity for charging, you 0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:24.360 basically can generate these credits and they are about ten 0:06:24.400 --> 0:06:26.640 percent of revenues for some of these charging companies, which 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:28.760 kind of is cyclical, and then people were more likely 0:06:28.800 --> 0:06:31.720 to build infrastructure, so kind of plays into why California 0:06:31.760 --> 0:06:32.640 house more charges. 0:06:32.760 --> 0:06:35.279 So when we think about these chargers, are the new 0:06:35.360 --> 0:06:38.200 ones going in, are they largely superchargers or is there 0:06:38.200 --> 0:06:43.039 an even split between these slower versus much quicker charging stations. 0:06:43.279 --> 0:06:46.120 When you look most of the markets, you really see 0:06:46.160 --> 0:06:49.400 percentage wise, it's kind of eighty percent the slower chargers 0:06:49.480 --> 0:06:51.800 on a total number basis. If you then start to 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:54.240 look at investment or the number of electrons that are 0:06:54.279 --> 0:06:56.800 being delivered from the chargers, it's really these fast and 0:06:56.800 --> 0:06:58.719 more powerful ones that are taking the line share of 0:06:58.720 --> 0:07:01.000 money and just cotributing electricity. 0:07:01.120 --> 0:07:04.440 And we're talking specifically about public chargers at the slow range, 0:07:04.480 --> 0:07:07.360 not in people's homes as they're setting them up directly 0:07:07.440 --> 0:07:09.480 in their home after they've bought an electric vehicle. 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:12.520 Yeah, that's right, So they could be anywhere. Golf courses 0:07:12.600 --> 0:07:16.240 might have slow charges, hotels, these kind of destinations. But 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:18.920 more so when you think shopping centers were competing for 0:07:19.400 --> 0:07:22.560 slow chargers. Now actually people are realizing, well, fast chargers 0:07:22.560 --> 0:07:25.600 are also suitable there. We're seeing more competition. Walmart is 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:27.560 now getting in the game themselves, so. 0:07:27.440 --> 0:07:30.440 They've recognized that essentially, if you're staying at a hotel, 0:07:30.480 --> 0:07:32.280 you're more than likely to stay overnight and you have 0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:34.360 enough time to get a charge, whereas if you're going 0:07:34.400 --> 0:07:37.440 to Walmart, you may not be spending your entire day there. 0:07:37.680 --> 0:07:40.000 Yeah, exactly, and you kind of want to come out 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:42.560 and have your car full. So even though there was 0:07:42.600 --> 0:07:44.200 this thing of oh, we'll have slow so people stay 0:07:44.200 --> 0:07:45.800 in the store forever, like, there's a limit to how 0:07:45.800 --> 0:07:48.320 long people probably want to stay in the in the store. 0:07:48.360 --> 0:07:50.520 And I think that forty five minutes. With the battery 0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:52.800 sizes we've got today on one hundred and fifty kilo, 0:07:52.840 --> 0:07:55.200 what charge, which is kind of in that fast range, 0:07:55.240 --> 0:07:57.480 would go from zero to eighteen ninety percent. 0:07:57.760 --> 0:07:59.920 I mean, Corey and I both have these recent EXPERI 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:04.320 variances where we've rented Tesla's actually in different states. So Corey, 0:08:04.320 --> 0:08:05.840 where were you when you rented your Tesla? 0:08:06.120 --> 0:08:08.880 Yeah, my girlfriend and I were at a wedding in California, 0:08:09.120 --> 0:08:11.840 and it felt like the perfect opportunity to rent an 0:08:11.840 --> 0:08:14.800 EV given how many chargers again are in California. So 0:08:14.840 --> 0:08:16.800 we rented the Tesla Model three and when we're staying 0:08:16.800 --> 0:08:20.920 at a hotel that advertised free charging. Unfortunately, Dana, that charger, 0:08:20.960 --> 0:08:24.840 while offered and advertised, was so good that other people 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:26.960 were using it for pretty much the entire time that 0:08:27.000 --> 0:08:29.360 we were there, So we ended up useeing fast charging 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:32.520 as a part of Tesla's supercharging network. But again, it 0:08:32.600 --> 0:08:34.880 is a nice perk. I wish the hotel had more chargers. 0:08:35.160 --> 0:08:39.800 So I rented Tesla why in Massachusetts and ended up 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:42.600 using it for three weeks across Massachusetts, New York State, 0:08:42.640 --> 0:08:44.600 and Rhode Island and did a bit of a road 0:08:44.600 --> 0:08:49.959 trip around there. And was definitely the stereotypical supercharger. Well 0:08:50.160 --> 0:08:52.560 the person that they're looking for, which essentially pulls into 0:08:52.559 --> 0:08:55.400 the parking lot, charges the car, and probably goes into 0:08:55.440 --> 0:08:58.880 every store that's in that particular parking lot they were at. 0:08:59.000 --> 0:09:02.280 But the more important thing was that we exclusively use 0:09:02.360 --> 0:09:06.440 Tesla superchargers, and I am very interested to learn that 0:09:06.559 --> 0:09:09.640 those superchargers are actually now open to a number of 0:09:09.679 --> 0:09:12.640 other different types of car owners. Let's delve into that 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:16.200 a little bit. What other companies now have access to 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:18.040 Tesla superchargers in the US. 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:21.240 Oh, there's quite a few signed up, and it almost 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:23.840 makes it seem like a landslide win that everybody's going 0:09:23.880 --> 0:09:28.120 to Tesla. So gm Ford were the first two, Mercedes 0:09:28.240 --> 0:09:31.040 Is on their Rivian, Fiska, Volvo. The list goes on. 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:35.960 I think what's important is who's not on there, so Stalantis, Toyota, BMW, 0:09:36.160 --> 0:09:38.400 High on Ikea. There's still some big hitters who have 0:09:38.480 --> 0:09:40.920 not quite signed up yet, and they, whilst accounting for 0:09:40.960 --> 0:09:43.160 maybe a small percent of EV sales, account for a 0:09:43.160 --> 0:09:45.240 lot of car sales. So let's say some of their 0:09:45.800 --> 0:09:48.160 strategy about how many evs they're going to sell comes true. 0:09:48.280 --> 0:09:50.520 Then they're still splitting from Tesla and maybe being a 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:53.160 bit aware of the dominance and the strategic win that 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:54.840 they may hand by signing up with them. 0:09:55.000 --> 0:09:58.240 Connect Okay, at one point, Ryan, and to just about 0:09:58.280 --> 0:10:03.920 the Tesla dominance. So Tesla has rebranded its supercharging connector 0:10:04.080 --> 0:10:07.880 as next the North American Charging Standard as an effort 0:10:07.960 --> 0:10:11.400 to sort of broad in the reach of the network 0:10:11.840 --> 0:10:16.000 and position themselves really as the leading charging connector type 0:10:16.040 --> 0:10:18.760 here in the US and Canada. There's one stat you 0:10:18.880 --> 0:10:21.560 use in a lot of your presentations that I really 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:24.640 appreciate because I think it really illustrates how much dominance 0:10:24.679 --> 0:10:27.960 Tesla actually has. It was the installation of new superchargers 0:10:28.040 --> 0:10:30.480 last year, which I believe was around like three thousand 0:10:30.559 --> 0:10:32.920 or so, and these other networks are more, I think 0:10:32.960 --> 0:10:35.880 in the five hundred or so range in terms of 0:10:35.920 --> 0:10:39.080 new installations. And so there's a reason why these automakers 0:10:39.080 --> 0:10:41.800 have been unhappy with some of the charging build out 0:10:41.840 --> 0:10:43.840 to date, and I think that the numbers show it. 0:10:43.880 --> 0:10:46.679 But also all of these announcements you just highlighted Ryan 0:10:46.840 --> 0:10:50.319 really drive the point that it's not necessarily that everyone 0:10:50.360 --> 0:10:52.760 wants to kind of jump on board with Tesla. It's 0:10:52.800 --> 0:10:55.120 just they're so far out ahead of the competition over 0:10:55.120 --> 0:10:57.520 here in the US that really the ev charging story 0:10:57.559 --> 0:11:00.000 in the US is Tesla and then there's everyone else. 0:11:00.760 --> 0:11:03.840 Yeah, And like anecdotal stories are sometimes the best. And 0:11:03.920 --> 0:11:05.520 I was kind of sat on my sofa and I 0:11:05.559 --> 0:11:08.000 don't usually have Twitter, but a Twitter spaces pops up 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:10.360 and it's Mary Barrow and it's Elon Musk, and I'm thinking, like, 0:11:10.360 --> 0:11:12.120 what is this, it's got to be some kind of 0:11:12.120 --> 0:11:14.400 big announcement. And this comes on the back of Tesla 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:17.080 buying Twitter, GM not going on Twitter at all for 0:11:17.200 --> 0:11:19.360 like seven eight months as the first time. They've never 0:11:19.400 --> 0:11:22.200 posted anything in the whole time. And GM is maybe 0:11:22.200 --> 0:11:26.480 the typical corporate car manufacturer, very organized, very explicit about 0:11:26.480 --> 0:11:28.440 what they're doing. I'm pretty sure Elon Musk was in 0:11:28.480 --> 0:11:30.560 his car. You could almost sound like you could hear 0:11:30.559 --> 0:11:32.880 a child in the back seat muffling around, and it 0:11:32.920 --> 0:11:36.320 was just so casual. So this massive strategic shift for GM. 0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:38.160 It just showed that they were almost having to bow 0:11:38.240 --> 0:11:40.520 down to Tesla, and surely they didn't want to do it, 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:42.840 but they just noticed all of the importance that was 0:11:42.880 --> 0:11:45.400 in it, and that setting did show that they really 0:11:45.440 --> 0:11:47.679 needed it. And Musk maybe was lauding it up a 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:48.200 little bit. 0:11:48.240 --> 0:11:52.160 And then Ford actually followed the very similar trajectories GM. 0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:55.959 I guess they predated it. So when did Ford sign 0:11:56.000 --> 0:11:57.240 on for this charging network? 0:11:57.400 --> 0:11:59.480 I think Ford was a little bit earlier, maybe two 0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:02.360 three weeks earlier, and you could almost a bit of 0:12:02.360 --> 0:12:04.920 a scramble really for GM to sign up. And I 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:07.240 think that falls through when you think about some of 0:12:07.240 --> 0:12:09.640 the things the issues that may be caused by this. 0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:12.000 You've got multiple connectors now in the US, some people 0:12:12.120 --> 0:12:15.360 using CCS, some people using Tesla's. If I'm buying a car, 0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:16.960 do i want to buy a car knowing that I'm 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:18.520 going to have an adapter when I go to a 0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:21.480 different network. There's a reason why you don't want to 0:12:21.480 --> 0:12:23.640 have these because they could be unsafe. Like you clip 0:12:23.640 --> 0:12:26.760 it in and you can largely if it's the automaker 0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:28.959 manufactured one not on clip it while you're charging. You're 0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:30.320 not going to get an electric shot. But if you 0:12:30.320 --> 0:12:32.240 buy one of the cheap ones online, it doesn't have 0:12:32.280 --> 0:12:34.760 the safety catch and somebody might get electrocuted. So there's 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:37.000 all of these things coming out of it that are 0:12:37.040 --> 0:12:39.360 just not not exactly ideal. So it isn't like a 0:12:39.400 --> 0:12:41.320 straight switch. Some of these are saying we're going to 0:12:41.320 --> 0:12:44.200 adopt this in two years on our vehicles, So it 0:12:44.240 --> 0:12:46.480 doesn't give the best gloss for the OEMs. 0:12:46.840 --> 0:12:49.760 Now you mentioned CCS, No, Ryan, this just shows me 0:12:49.960 --> 0:12:52.000 that you have been working in the electric Vehicle team 0:12:52.040 --> 0:12:55.600 for a very very long time because CCS means something 0:12:55.679 --> 0:12:58.400 a little different to many of us at BNEF. What 0:12:58.440 --> 0:13:00.520 does CCS mean to you in this car text? 0:13:00.679 --> 0:13:03.640 So I think the acronym is combined charging system. But 0:13:03.840 --> 0:13:05.680 essentially you can think of it if you go from 0:13:05.880 --> 0:13:08.400 a europe or to the US, or US to Europe. 0:13:08.440 --> 0:13:10.720 It's just a slightly different connector standard in terms of 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:12.880 how the pins look and then maybe some of the 0:13:12.920 --> 0:13:16.640 actual software and communications behind it. So moving over to Tesla, 0:13:16.679 --> 0:13:18.920 once it works perfectly today you plug a Tesla into 0:13:18.920 --> 0:13:21.120 a Tesla supercharger. If you actually with one of these 0:13:21.120 --> 0:13:23.600 other OEMs, there isn't any real guarantee that it's going 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:25.120 to fully work. Are they going to be able to 0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:26.720 implement it the same? Are they going to want to 0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:28.679 implement it the same? So the problem for the other 0:13:28.720 --> 0:13:31.600 OEMs is you buy a Volkswagon and you go and 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:33.920 charge somewhere it doesn't work. It's because everybody's using the 0:13:33.960 --> 0:13:36.319 same thing. They maybe not implemented the standard correctly, or 0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:39.040 they've all implemented it slightly different. And whilst the gloss 0:13:39.040 --> 0:13:40.760 of what Tesla is doing is there and like this 0:13:40.880 --> 0:13:42.800 ultimate oh, it's going to be the same pinnacle, the 0:13:42.800 --> 0:13:44.720 same experience. I have to admit there's a bit of 0:13:44.760 --> 0:13:46.920 pessimism from me as to whether that will actually be 0:13:46.960 --> 0:13:50.360 the case when these other charge manufacturers go And Corey 0:13:50.440 --> 0:13:52.120 was maybe more in the detail on this, but there's 0:13:52.160 --> 0:13:54.439 a series on Charge TV, which is like a magazine. 0:13:54.440 --> 0:13:57.000 Somebody's gone out and they're discussing four part series on 0:13:57.280 --> 0:13:59.440 this experience. They've gone out and they've interviewed a lot 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:02.160 of people, and when you look in some of those details, 0:14:02.160 --> 0:14:05.160 it almost seemed like top down they decided at exec level, 0:14:05.160 --> 0:14:07.000 we're going to move to the Tesla charging connector, and 0:14:07.000 --> 0:14:09.600 some of the engineers maybe didn't quite know. And nobody's 0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:11.280 going to come out and say that full well, but 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:13.520 that there was like a little bit of that appearing 0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:15.880 in the text and the sentiment of those articles. 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:18.240 Well, because this is why I keep harping on about 0:14:18.520 --> 0:14:21.360 when the dates were that these agreements were made, and 0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:24.840 GM and Ford were fairly recent, but perhaps the other 0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:27.720 companies were quite a bit before that. And then I mean, 0:14:27.800 --> 0:14:29.920 maybe you can answer that question for me, because the 0:14:29.960 --> 0:14:32.200 reason I am fixated on is the fact that I 0:14:32.240 --> 0:14:34.680 did not see anything other than a Tesla on a 0:14:34.720 --> 0:14:37.160 Tesla supercharger, and trust me, I went to quite a 0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:38.960 few of them over the course of three weeks and 0:14:39.000 --> 0:14:41.280 I'm thinking maybe the owners of these other cars just 0:14:41.320 --> 0:14:44.240 don't know, or as you're inferring, maybe the experience isn't 0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:46.920 as seamless as we might think it will be. 0:14:47.160 --> 0:14:49.880 Oh, so it was Ford was first. I must have 0:14:49.880 --> 0:14:51.880 been May, mid May, back end of May. That then 0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:54.280 GM in the June, I think, and then all of 0:14:54.320 --> 0:14:56.720 these other ones then followed over the preceding weeks. 0:14:56.960 --> 0:14:59.880 So this is really extremely recent. 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:01.840 Yeah, extremely recent. So none of these are the cars. 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:04.000 They've all still got the CCS connector. There's probably no 0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:06.480 adapters that you can buy yet, so they physically probably 0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:09.520 can't many of them go Some of the charger manufacturers 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:11.760 have put Tesla's connector on the thing, so you went 0:15:11.800 --> 0:15:14.120 to a charge point one, it might now have the 0:15:14.160 --> 0:15:16.160 Tesla or Next connector as it's called. 0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:18.760 So now when I go home next summer, it might 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:20.840 be a very different experience, and I might be waiting 0:15:20.840 --> 0:15:23.520 in the queue for other cars to get off of 0:15:23.560 --> 0:15:26.400 these chargers, because that does happen when they get completely flooded. 0:15:26.520 --> 0:15:27.920 You have to kind of sit there and wait five 0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:29.640 minutes for somebody else to vacate the charger. 0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:31.080 Yeah, and one of the things of this deal that 0:15:31.120 --> 0:15:33.360 didn't get well highlighted was that they only actually access 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:36.800 twelve thousand of the superchargers and there's nineteen thousand in 0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:39.320 the system. So they're actually doing a little bit of 0:15:39.320 --> 0:15:42.720 probably analysis to say which ones have low utilization and 0:15:42.800 --> 0:15:45.720 can take other people, which one of the premium locations 0:15:45.800 --> 0:15:48.720 for Tesla drivers that we want to keep, So they're 0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:50.320 not giving access to everything. Now. 0:15:50.360 --> 0:15:52.680 I want to talk about this in terms of profitability 0:15:52.720 --> 0:15:56.720 because when I thought about chargers a couple of years 0:15:56.720 --> 0:16:00.520 ago was when Tesla was initially launching this exclusive network. 0:16:00.680 --> 0:16:02.480 In many respects, I think a lot of this were 0:16:02.520 --> 0:16:05.400 thinking about the chargers as a way to facilitate Tesla 0:16:05.480 --> 0:16:09.320 ownership and that they themselves were not the business. But clearly, 0:16:09.440 --> 0:16:13.280 if Tesla's out there now selling the superchargers, it's not 0:16:13.360 --> 0:16:17.600 an exclusive use situation anymore. And this begs the question 0:16:17.880 --> 0:16:20.840 what are the margins like for these chargers and are 0:16:20.920 --> 0:16:23.520 these themselves a business in their own right? And is 0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:27.000 the game really very much changed to being about cars 0:16:27.160 --> 0:16:31.200 and charging rather than focus specifically on selling the vehicles. 0:16:31.480 --> 0:16:33.920 I mean, in one of the tweets Musk did, he 0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:35.560 said it was about we're not looking to make much 0:16:35.600 --> 0:16:38.400 profitabilities about ten percent margin we're looking for. Some of 0:16:38.400 --> 0:16:40.480 the companies are now if you look across Europe or 0:16:40.520 --> 0:16:43.760 Lego is one that is on the stock exchanges, and 0:16:44.000 --> 0:16:46.160 they do fast charging, and that's one of the main 0:16:46.200 --> 0:16:47.920 things they're now aiming at. They're saying, we can pay 0:16:47.960 --> 0:16:50.280 back these chargers in four years and the IRR can 0:16:50.360 --> 0:16:53.160 be twenty five percent. So certainly there's glimpses of it. 0:16:53.200 --> 0:16:57.480 In BP's investor presentation recently, maybe three weeks ago, Bernard 0:16:57.560 --> 0:17:01.280 Loney was saying that a bit DA positive for Germany 0:17:01.320 --> 0:17:04.840 and China. So there's certainly signs that this is going 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:06.600 in the right direction. If you look at some of 0:17:06.640 --> 0:17:08.920 the charge point operators though, so eve Goo is one 0:17:08.960 --> 0:17:11.880 in the US, they're selling electricity. They have made their 0:17:11.880 --> 0:17:14.399 revenues have grown quite a lot, but if you look 0:17:14.400 --> 0:17:16.320 at the percentage of revenues, they've had to move into 0:17:16.320 --> 0:17:18.800 the game instead of selling electricity, building the chargers for 0:17:18.840 --> 0:17:21.720 other people, So sixty six percent of their total revenues 0:17:21.720 --> 0:17:23.960 were actually instead of their original business model, we're going 0:17:24.000 --> 0:17:26.400 to sell electricity, they're now making most of their revenue 0:17:26.400 --> 0:17:28.520 from building chargers for other networks. 0:17:28.600 --> 0:17:33.359 Oh well, okay, so now, Corey, you have this experience 0:17:33.440 --> 0:17:37.199 recently in California using the Tesla network in where it 0:17:37.240 --> 0:17:41.000 is actually most prevalent. Did you go to any other chargers? 0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:44.320 No? And you know what, it's more so because it's 0:17:44.320 --> 0:17:47.639 so integrated into the car experience and knowing what you 0:17:47.800 --> 0:17:49.960 do as a US driver. I mean the number of 0:17:49.960 --> 0:17:52.920 newspaper articles that pop up on a monthly or quarterly 0:17:52.960 --> 0:17:57.320 basis saying Electrify America charger down or four out of 0:17:57.359 --> 0:17:59.720 five down. It just makes you now want to even 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:02.560 con h those options. And Tesla makes it really easy 0:18:02.600 --> 0:18:04.800 with the app integration, so much so that when we 0:18:04.800 --> 0:18:07.520 were talking about the NEV program before, part of NEV 0:18:07.640 --> 0:18:10.640 requires all of the other charging operators, the charge Point, 0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:13.320 ev GO, Electrifi America to kind of come together to 0:18:13.720 --> 0:18:17.199 have a common app experience. Tesla was exempt from that 0:18:17.240 --> 0:18:20.439 requirement because when the Biden administration struck a deal with 0:18:20.520 --> 0:18:23.600 Musk to get those superchargers open that Ryan was talking about, 0:18:23.680 --> 0:18:26.200 they basically said, Tesla, you can kind of keep your 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:28.520 own app and keep your own data to yourself. So no, 0:18:28.680 --> 0:18:32.280 it wasn't a consideration, and frankly, without being confident in 0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:34.600 the uptime, it's hard to make that decision. My dad 0:18:34.680 --> 0:18:37.480 also drives or drives a Tesla for his day to 0:18:37.560 --> 0:18:40.320 day life, and it was hard to even direct him 0:18:40.320 --> 0:18:41.800 when he was in a bit of a charging desert 0:18:41.880 --> 0:18:44.680 towards one of those other charging companies, just because if 0:18:44.680 --> 0:18:46.680