Speaker 1: In case you're just recently joining us, or however long
Speaker 1: you've been a listener of the show. You may not
Speaker 1: realize that we have over seven years of incredible episodes
Speaker 1: in our archive. We've had so many wonderful guests that
Speaker 1: we've decided to hand pick one of our favorites that
Speaker 1: may be new to you, but if not, it definitely
Speaker 1: is worth another liston. We hope you'll enjoy this episode
Speaker 1: with Susan Piper. You can't think your way into intuition
Speaker 1: or inspiration or knowing, but if you make space, it
Speaker 1: arises Welcome to the one you feed. Throughout time, great
Speaker 1: thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have,
Speaker 1: quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what
Speaker 1: you think, ring true. And yet for many of us,
Speaker 1: our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
Speaker 1: self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
Speaker 1: have instead of what we do. We think things that
Speaker 1: hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
Speaker 1: just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent
Speaker 1: and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
Speaker 1: podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
Speaker 1: the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks
Speaker 1: for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Susan Piver,
Speaker 1: who is here for the second time. She's a New
Speaker 1: York Times best selling author of nine books, including the
Speaker 1: award winning How Not to Be Afraid of Your Life
Speaker 1: and the Wisdom of a Broken Heart. Susan has been
Speaker 1: a practicing Buddhist since and graduated from a Buddhist seminary
Speaker 1: in two thousand four. Her work has been featured on
Speaker 1: The Oprah Show, Today, CNN, and in The New York Times,
Speaker 1: Wall Street, Turn Money, and others. Her new book is
Speaker 1: The Four Noble Truths of Love, Buddhist Wisdom for Modern Relationships. Hi, Susan,
Speaker 1: Welcome back to the show. Him so glad to be here.
Speaker 1: Thank you. Yes, we have had you on before. I
Speaker 1: don't remember which episode number it was, but it's been
Speaker 1: a while. But you have a new book out that
Speaker 1: we will explore in depth. But let's start like we
Speaker 1: always do with the parable. In the Parable, there's a
Speaker 1: grandfather who's talking with his granddaughter and he says, in life,
Speaker 1: there are two wolves inside of us that are always
Speaker 1: at battle. What is a good wolf, which represents things
Speaker 1: like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is
Speaker 1: a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred
Speaker 1: and fear. And the granddaughter stops, and she thinks about
Speaker 1: it for a second, looks up at her grandfather, and
Speaker 1: she says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says,
Speaker 1: the one you feed. So I'd like to start off
Speaker 1: by asking you what that parable means to you in
Speaker 1: your life and in the work that you do. Well,
Speaker 1: thank you, and I love that parable. And as you
Speaker 1: were saying it, I thought about it in a different
Speaker 1: way than I ever had before, which is I was
Speaker 1: thinking about the bad wolf and the I'm a longtime
Speaker 1: Buddhist practitioner, as I think you know, and in certain
Speaker 1: schools of Buddhism, there's this idea that afflictive emotions have
Speaker 1: a positive flip side, And so I was thinking of
Speaker 1: what is the flip side of hatred, ingreeed, and anger
Speaker 1: the three qualities you named, and what is the vulnerable
Speaker 1: part in those qualities, and how can we touch those
Speaker 1: vulnerable parts instead of running in fear from the bad wolf?
Speaker 1: Can we somehow uncover the goodness of the bad wolf?
Speaker 1: In some way. I love that idea, and it makes
Speaker 1: me think of something that you say in the book
Speaker 1: that sort of caught my attention, and it was that
Speaker 1: underneath other emotions like anger or rage and fear and
Speaker 1: all that is sadness, and that sadness is a more
Speaker 1: tender emotion that we can work with. And what I
Speaker 1: wanted to ask you about that is that my experience
Speaker 1: seems to be that sadness is the emotion that is
Speaker 1: relatively easy for me to access, and that certainly I
Speaker 1: have had people say before that my depressive condition looks
Speaker 1: more like anger toward turned inward. And so I'm just
Speaker 1: kind of interested in what you think about about what
Speaker 1: I just said, because they're kind of different approaches to
Speaker 1: that thing, are a different way of looking at sadness
Speaker 1: versus anger. I think certain people have a tendency towards
Speaker 1: one or the other, or neither. You and I apparently
Speaker 1: both tend towards a depressive response to unhappiness. Some people
Speaker 1: respond with anger, but just their their first response, and
Speaker 1: I think in both cases a similar emotion underlies the response,
Speaker 1: which is some kind of fear or some kind of
Speaker 1: being hurt. Because the truth is we're we're vulnerable, and
Speaker 1: we're fragile, and we're sensitive, I think is a better
Speaker 1: word than fragile. And when something upsets us, we want
Speaker 1: to turn it into something we can work with as
Speaker 1: as opposed to just feeling the pain directly. And anger
Speaker 1: is something you can work with, is something you can
Speaker 1: turn on others, It's something that you can express. It
Speaker 1: obliterates everything, actually, And I just want to differentiate between
Speaker 1: depression and sadness because depression, I think does something similar
Speaker 1: as anger does. Anger turns it outward, and like you said,
Speaker 1: depression turns it inward, but it's also sort of calcifies it.
Speaker 1: I think of depression as a kind of calcified sadness.
Speaker 1: In both cases, anger and depression could be thought of.
Speaker 1: This is my experience. I'm not a therapist, but this
Speaker 1: is my observation as unfelt sadness, because sadness makes you
Speaker 1: feel so well honorable. I once someone was interviewing Gloria
Speaker 1: Steinam the Feminist Icon. I think I mentioned this in
Speaker 1: the book even I'll never forget what she said when
Speaker 1: an interviewer asked her she was depressed over the recent
Speaker 1: death of her husband. They've only been married a few
Speaker 1: years and she said, I'm paraphrasing, I'm not depressed, I'm sad.
Speaker 1: And the interviewer said, what's the difference, and she said,
Speaker 1: the most beautiful thing. When you're depressed, nothing has any meaning,
Speaker 1: and when you're sad, everything does. So when we turned
Speaker 1: towards sadness, we can enter the realm of reality, I
Speaker 1: think a little bit more directly than when we turn
Speaker 1: it into something else, whether it's anger or depression. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I've always loved that quote, and I think it's interesting
Speaker 1: because my willingness to be sad. I think you're probably right,
Speaker 1: is a more recent phenomenon in my life, and probably
Speaker 1: as I was younger, that wasn't something I was I
Speaker 1: was looking to do. I like that idea of calcification.
Speaker 1: That's a good word for what depression feels like. It's
Speaker 1: it's almost like this really tight calcification. I like that.
Speaker 1: But let's turn to your book, which is called The
Speaker 1: Four Noble Truths of Love, Buddhist wisdom for Modern relationships.
Speaker 1: And as most listeners know, the Buddha expounded four Noble
Speaker 1: truths about life, and you have reinterpreted those two relationships.
Speaker 1: And so I thought, why don't we just start with
Speaker 1: talking about what those four noble truths are. The four
Speaker 1: noble truths of love, just as you suggest, are based
Speaker 1: on the Buddhist Buddha's very first teachings upon attaining enlightenment.
Speaker 1: He taught four things, and the entire Buddhist path is
Speaker 1: based on these four things. And at one point in
Speaker 1: my marriage we had hit a really bad period. And
Speaker 1: anybody who's been in a relationship knows what this is like.
Speaker 1: Everything seems okay and then suddenly you can't get along.
Speaker 1: And we were in one of those phases where whatever
Speaker 1: one did, the other one took offense, and we couldn't
Speaker 1: tell why. We argued about the silliest things. We couldn't
Speaker 1: get along, and this went on for months. One day
Speaker 1: I was sitting at my desk. I was crying because
Speaker 1: I didn't know what to do. I had thought we
Speaker 1: loved each other, and I thought I still did, but
Speaker 1: it seemed that there was nothing but coldness between us.
Speaker 1: So I was crying, and I had this thought, upon wondering,
Speaker 1: I don't even know where to begin. I had this
Speaker 1: thought that said, begin at the beginning, at the beginning
Speaker 1: of foreign noble truths, and as a Buddhist practitioner, like
Speaker 1: I say, that meant something to me, but I wasn't
Speaker 1: sure what, because what do the four noble truths have
Speaker 1: to do with my relationship? So I sat and thought
Speaker 1: about it, and this is what I came up with.
Speaker 1: The first noble truth of love is that relationships are uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: They just are. If you've never met the person you're
Speaker 1: about to go on a blind date, it's uncomfortable. What
Speaker 1: if they don't like me, or what if they do
Speaker 1: like me, or what if I repeat all my old
Speaker 1: relationship patterns and you have met the person, and it's
Speaker 1: already very uncomfortable. And if you fall in love, I
Speaker 1: mean that's heavenly, literally heavenly, but it's also oddly uncomfortable
Speaker 1: because it's so intense, and every moment is so fraught,
Speaker 1: and every look and every word could have some extraordinary
Speaker 1: kind of meaning, and you can spend a lot of
Speaker 1: time wondering what that expression meant and worrying that this
Speaker 1: is just going to disappear. And then if you're in
Speaker 1: a long term relationship, it just so happens. Nobody really
Speaker 1: told me this that there's a lot of irritation people
Speaker 1: have habits. People do things that trigger you, and they
Speaker 1: do them over and over again, and you just sort
Speaker 1: of live with this sense of it's just hard to
Speaker 1: live with another person, even if it's you know, there's
Speaker 1: certainly matters of degree, but it's just it's hard. So
Speaker 1: that that's the first noble truths. Relationships are uncomfortable. I
Speaker 1: want to ask you a question here about this because
Speaker 1: this is a point that I am struggling with in
Speaker 1: my own life, and it's it's this. I get the
Speaker 1: general idea that we should you resistance causes us a
Speaker 1: great deal of trouble. Right now. I am somebody that
Speaker 1: that wrestles with being irritated, particularly by sounds and things
Speaker 1: that are around me. And I have this happen semi
Speaker 1: often where I will find myself very irritated, and then
Speaker 1: I find myself thinking I should not be irritated, and
Speaker 1: I do this. I go back and forth between these
Speaker 1: two things. One is that I try and go just
Speaker 1: allow the sound to be whatever it is, just let
Speaker 1: it be right. So I'm trying to decrease my resistance
Speaker 1: there and just let it go right. So that's one approach,
Speaker 1: and then I sometimes that works, and often it doesn't,
Speaker 1: and then I go, Okay, what I'm going to try
Speaker 1: and do then is just let my irritation be. And
Speaker 1: I never know which of those is more effective, and
Speaker 1: maybe the answer is the one that works at that moment.
Speaker 1: But I'm just kind of curious on your thoughts because
Speaker 1: that's a dilemma that shows up often in when you're
Speaker 1: when you're talking about not resisting what's happening. So I
Speaker 1: guess just your thoughts on that, yeah, and I share that.
Speaker 1: By the way, I'm auditorially very sensitive, and if two
Speaker 1: people start talking to me at once, I actually feel
Speaker 1: temper flare. They're not doing anything wrong, but it does
Speaker 1: something to my nervous system and that is uncomfortable. So
Speaker 1: I would say my approach and is if you get irritated,
Speaker 1: it does not help to become irritated by the fact
Speaker 1: that you're irritated. You're just still irritated. You just change
Speaker 1: the object. So I would say, be irritated. But the
Speaker 1: key here is without the story of the irritation, because
Speaker 1: it's the story that actually causes more pain and suffering
Speaker 1: then the original the presenting issue. So feel the irritation,
Speaker 1: like what does it feel like in your body. That's
Speaker 1: where most people feel it, like their chest gets tight
Speaker 1: or there they feel their shoulders hunch. Some people feel
Speaker 1: it in the environment, like the actual environment feels different.
Speaker 1: It feels combative or dark or whatever. It might be.
Speaker 1: Placed your attention on that, and when a story tries
Speaker 1: to arise, it says, well, if only people would be quieter,
Speaker 1: or I shouldn't be irritated. Those are all thoughts. Just
Speaker 1: put those aside to turn towards the felt sense of
Speaker 1: the irritation that tends to be more expeditious and also
Speaker 1: kinder to yourself. That part that doesn't involve any condemnation
Speaker 1: or you know, self improvement. You just feel it and
Speaker 1: eventually it dissipates. Yeah, I think that's really good advice.
Speaker 1: It's funny. That is the one emotion I've I've just
Speaker 1: recognized this very recently, but it is the one emotion
Speaker 1: that I am absolutely the most uncomfortable with because I think,
Speaker 1: you know, sadness is sadness even anger, you know, it's
Speaker 1: not one of my most comfortable. But usually if I'm angry,
Speaker 1: there's a reasonable, at least in my own brain, a reason, right.
Speaker 1: I could say, like, well, this person is doing X
Speaker 1: or y and this causes that. But with irritation, it's
Speaker 1: just this, like you said, the person isn't doing anything.
Speaker 1: I mean, they're doing absolutely nothing wrong, and I'm seething,
Speaker 1: you know, and it and it's so it's the one
Speaker 1: that I am uncomfortable with because it feels completely unjustified
Speaker 1: to me. And I guess, you know, I get that
Speaker 1: my emotions have to be justified. Is that the root
Speaker 1: of part of that problem. I've just I really like,
Speaker 1: in the last week or two, have noticed this. I
Speaker 1: don't think I've ever been able to put it quite
Speaker 1: together what happens to me in those situations and how
Speaker 1: much worse I might be making it by the storyline,
Speaker 1: which is this is not okay. Well, I have something
Speaker 1: that I want to suggest, and this is my theory
Speaker 1: based on nothing, which should be the title of my
Speaker 1: next book. I think could be the title of all
Speaker 1: my books. But my theory based on nothing, is that
Speaker 1: the irritation that you feel and that I feel, it's
Speaker 1: not the same as being angry at someone for ignoring
Speaker 1: you or hurting you or doing something that you think
Speaker 1: is wrong. It comes from a different part of the organism.
Speaker 1: There's a psychological and emotional heart of someone doing something
Speaker 1: upsetting to you. That's not the case here. I feel
Speaker 1: like this is a limbic system response in your nervous
Speaker 1: system just fires and then you attach a story to it.
Speaker 1: But I think sound, and you're I mean, look what
Speaker 1: we're doing right now. Your life so much of it,
Speaker 1: I imagine, revolves around sound, and there's a threat. I
Speaker 1: think your olympic system perceives a threat. And so when
Speaker 1: I get irritated like that, I try to think. Not,
Speaker 1: of course, I think, well I shouldn't be irritated, or
Speaker 1: why can't I be a nicer person, But I also
Speaker 1: try to think, well, something some although it does not
Speaker 1: make any sense, and there is nothing threatening me right now,
Speaker 1: so part of me perceives a threat. So can I
Speaker 1: turn towards that part and just go everything's okay, sweetie,
Speaker 1: let's just relax. You read about like highly sensitive people,
Speaker 1: and that's the one thing like when I read about
Speaker 1: highly sensitive people, I went that one is me right there.
Speaker 1: When they say that like that, incidental noises just I
Speaker 1: really do have a very difficult time if like there's
Speaker 1: a TV on in one room in another room, or
Speaker 1: somebody's talking, or I just when there's multiple sounds coming
Speaker 1: at me, I get, like you said, I almost just
Speaker 1: quickly get angry. Yeah. I think we had just finished
Speaker 1: the first noble truth of relationships and we're about to
Speaker 1: hit the second. Yes, yes, relationships are uncomfortable, as the
Speaker 1: first noble truth because they never stabilize. That's something else
Speaker 1: no one ever tells you. And the second noble truth
Speaker 1: is that thinking they should be comfortable and stable is
Speaker 1: actually what causes them to be uncomfortable and unstable. In
Speaker 1: other words, instability and change. That's that's a part of life.
Speaker 1: There's no feeling that is solid. Love and connection are
Speaker 1: always pulsing in and out of existence. They don't it's
Speaker 1: not solid. So okay, we have to live with that,
Speaker 1: we have to figure out a way to deal with that.
Speaker 1: But then we think, well, there's a problem here that
Speaker 1: we have to fix. And when we fix this problem,
Speaker 1: either something small like you're always late, please be on time,
Speaker 1: which may not be that small for some people, or
Speaker 1: something really big like I don't know, we don't seem
Speaker 1: to have much romance in our life, or I don't know,
Speaker 1: whatever you would want to call it. And if we
Speaker 1: could solve that problem, everything would be okay, and that's
Speaker 1: not true. We should all try to all of our problems,
Speaker 1: and we're not just say the status quo with things
Speaker 1: that are upsetting. But the idea that if we solve
Speaker 1: this we will be happy is I think the root
Speaker 1: of the most difficult discomfort. I just want to read
Speaker 1: something you wrote because I think it says this very eloquently.
Speaker 1: But we're always trying to get rid of the problems
Speaker 1: in our relationships. This is only human. However, expecting that
Speaker 1: upon doing so, you will finally be happy can cause
Speaker 1: a lot of confusion. Thinking that a relationship will finally
Speaker 1: come to rest in a peaceful place is actually what
Speaker 1: makes it uncomfortable. When that expectation is softened, an enormous
Speaker 1: space opens up. Yeah, an enormous space opens up, is
Speaker 1: the thing, because we stop holding each other sort of hostage.
Speaker 1: I think two something some idea about the way things
Speaker 1: should be, and turned towards each other, which is the
Speaker 1: third novel truth of love, That meeting the discomfort and
Speaker 1: instability together is love. So instead of like, okay, you
Speaker 1: need to perfect this, you need to change that. I
Speaker 1: need to work on this. Okay, that's cool, all that's fine.
Speaker 1: I know. I'm not trying to say that that's there's
Speaker 1: anything wrong with that. But when things happen in a
Speaker 1: relationship that caused pain, instead of looking at each other
Speaker 1: like what did you do to cause this? Or what
Speaker 1: did I do to cause this, to turn away from
Speaker 1: each other and look at the problem itself, look at
Speaker 1: the sort of weather front that you are in currently,
Speaker 1: and to see it together. Oh look, now we don't
Speaker 1: like each other, Now we really do. Now I like you,
Speaker 1: but you don't seem to like me. I'm not saying
Speaker 1: all of those are equally good, because they're not. But
Speaker 1: to look at the cycling and be on the ride together,
Speaker 1: I would say that is loving a loving thing to do. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I want to read something else that you say
Speaker 1: about that, because I think that one is so they're
Speaker 1: all powerful, but that one really resonates with me. Um
Speaker 1: to that idea, and you say, what if instead of
Speaker 1: looking at each other accusingly, you shifted your gaze to
Speaker 1: the conflict itself together? What if instead of telling the
Speaker 1: other how they need to change so that this will
Speaker 1: never happen again, you could look at the problem as
Speaker 1: a kind of third entity that somehow landed in your
Speaker 1: house and is sitting on the couch next to you,
Speaker 1: And I just think that can be so transformative. Another
Speaker 1: way to say that, in a slightly different way is
Speaker 1: that like you guys are now on the same team
Speaker 1: and it's you as a team against the problem, or
Speaker 1: you know, looking at the problem right, and just that
Speaker 1: metaphor of like, okay, we're back on the same team. Um.
Speaker 1: I've just found that one to be really very helpful myself,
Speaker 1: and it's also the sort of thing that I've seen
Speaker 1: really transform a lot of other people. So I just
Speaker 1: wanted to read that because I just think it's such
Speaker 1: a powerful thing. That's awesome, And I love the way
Speaker 1: you said it that we're on the same team. That's
Speaker 1: exactly the spirit of it. Yeah, it's so free. It
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that you don't have the problem, doesn't mean
Speaker 1: that doesn't hurt. It just means that you're on the
Speaker 1: same team, just like you say. So. The fourth noble
Speaker 1: truth is that there's a way to do all of this.
Speaker 1: The Buddhist force noble truth is called the eightfold path,
Speaker 1: right view, right intention, and so on. What I made
Speaker 1: up because I want everyone to know I made this up.
Speaker 1: This is these teachings are in no sutra or contra.
Speaker 1: These are my interpretation, so they must be vetted very carefully.
Speaker 1: The fourth novel Truth of Love is that there's a
Speaker 1: threefold path and it is based on the sort of
Speaker 1: qualities that one cultivates in a sitting meditation practice. And
Speaker 1: it's one of the reasons why I think meditation and
Speaker 1: love are such natural allies. So the three sort of
Speaker 1: steps on, well, how do you actually do these things?
Speaker 1: And that sounds like a good idea, how do you
Speaker 1: do it? The first step is called precision, like you
Speaker 1: have to create use some sense of precision to create
Speaker 1: a foundation for your relationship, for your meditation practice. In
Speaker 1: meditation practice, the precision is that you focus on your
Speaker 1: breath or whatever your object is, but in most cases
Speaker 1: it's the breath, and that that establishes the foundation for
Speaker 1: your meditation. If you're not trying to place attention on
Speaker 1: the breath, and of course it's strays and cool you
Speaker 1: bring it back, you're not meditating, you're doing something else.
Speaker 1: So what is the corollary in a relationship that if
Speaker 1: you're not doing those things, even though you may be
Speaker 1: in the same house together, you're not having a relationship.
Speaker 1: The precision here is two have good manners. I know
Speaker 1: that may sound kind of superficial, but I don't mean
Speaker 1: no which work to use. I mean be cognizant of
Speaker 1: the other person's presence, think of them, develop some awareness
Speaker 1: of them, and then some idea about what might be
Speaker 1: helpful to them, loving to them, kind to them, or
Speaker 1: that you don't want to do those things because you're
Speaker 1: mad at them, but at least you still have the awareness.
Speaker 1: Good manners as a very profound gesture of compassion, I think.
Speaker 1: And then also, of course, precision involves honesty doesn't mean
Speaker 1: blurting what you think whenever you think it. Skillful honesty
Speaker 1: means knowing the truth yourself and then knowing when you
Speaker 1: don't know it and so shutting up or I'm not
Speaker 1: trying to make something up. So if you can't have
Speaker 1: good manners, meaning thoughtfulness and you can't be honest, I
Speaker 1: don't think you can have a relationship. You can have
Speaker 1: something else, but I don't think you can have a relationship. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I was really struck by that in the book about
Speaker 1: good manners, because I've often felt like good manners are
Speaker 1: really important, but I've never been able to articulate it
Speaker 1: like and again we're not talking about which fork to use,
Speaker 1: but you said, the ground level of good manners maybe
Speaker 1: among the most important of the qualities of person can
Speaker 1: have that make a successful relationship. True good manners are
Speaker 1: far from superficial. There's one that you're really paying attention
Speaker 1: to the other person and showing evidence of that in
Speaker 1: the way you act and speak. And I just I
Speaker 1: love that because, like I said, I've always had this
Speaker 1: feeling about like that's really important, but I could never
Speaker 1: really articulate it. I think it's hugely important, and it's
Speaker 1: great that you have that sensitivity to good manners because honestly,
Speaker 1: I think of all the qualities you can bring to
Speaker 1: a relationship to make it successful, you know, you might think, oh, well,
Speaker 1: self knowledge or compassion or good sense of human or whatever.
Speaker 1: I don't know, but honestly, I think good manners is
Speaker 1: the most important thing. It's certainly one of those things that, um,
Speaker 1: if you don't have it may not you know, I
Speaker 1: don't know, you know, ranking things in importance, but it's
Speaker 1: certainly a baseline qualification for it to work. It seems like,
Speaker 1: you know, it's like one of those foundational skills absolutely.
Speaker 1: And again we're not talking about the fork, as we
Speaker 1: both said. We were talking earlier before this, and I
Speaker 1: told you I ever broken foot, and it's it's not
Speaker 1: a big deal. But at the same time, you can't
Speaker 1: do very much because you can't walk and your hands
Speaker 1: are engaged in moving your body on crutches or in
Speaker 1: a scooter or whatever. So I can't really cook food.
Speaker 1: It's really irritating. Um So when my husband thinks of
Speaker 1: that when he's coming home and plans something, knowing that
Speaker 1: I have this, I cannot prepare the food because I
Speaker 1: work at home. So I often do that anyway that
Speaker 1: to me is and then make some plan for that
Speaker 1: because I just find that to be so loving. And
Speaker 1: so that's what I mean by good manners. Thinking of
Speaker 1: the other person and making some accommodation, some space for
Speaker 1: them in your actions and your words. I think it's
Speaker 1: really loving. So the second piece here is called openness.
Speaker 1: And in your meditation practice, if you have one, you
Speaker 1: sit and you place your attention on your breath and
Speaker 1: then that's it. You don't try to do anything else.
Speaker 1: You just allow yourself to be as you are. You
Speaker 1: open to yourself when you're speedy, when you're relaxed, when
Speaker 1: you're boring, when you're violent, you know in your mind
Speaker 1: you've experienced all of that. You make room for yourself
Speaker 1: in this very un American way of just being with
Speaker 1: yourself as you are and in a relationship that translates
Speaker 1: to something quite shocking. I was quite surprised to find
Speaker 1: this eric that, oh there's another person here. This relationship
Speaker 1: isn't just about me. But openness here means considering the
Speaker 1: other person as having at least equal importance to yourself
Speaker 1: in the relationship. And it's easy for people that are
Speaker 1: very self sacrificing to think that means they should be
Speaker 1: more self sacrificing. I really don't mean that you should
Speaker 1: put yourself second. I do not mean that at all.
Speaker 1: I just mean to see, oh, we both are important here.
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean so me too. I'm important and so
Speaker 1: are you. And having that willingness to look at the
Speaker 1: other person not as a a vice that you have
Speaker 1: somehow are trying to craft in the name of your
Speaker 1: own happiness, but as a as a being who you're
Speaker 1: sharing space with, sharing life with, feelings with a date
Speaker 1: with to open to them as they are. Of course,
Speaker 1: that is a very loving thing to do. And the
Speaker 1: third piece is called going beyond, which is evoked in
Speaker 1: a meditation practice when you notice you're absorbed in thought,
Speaker 1: which is fine, it's not a big deal. You're not
Speaker 1: trying to stop thinking when you're meditating. Yeah, you get
Speaker 1: absorbed in thought. You see the notice that some kind
Speaker 1: of light goes off, and you notice that and you
Speaker 1: let go. You let go, and when you let go,
Speaker 1: there's a space and you come back, you come back
Speaker 1: to your breath. In meditation practice, and you are constantly
Speaker 1: putting down conventional thought to return to a felt experience
Speaker 1: of the present moment, which is called the spiritual path.
Speaker 1: And it deepens every time you let go of thought
Speaker 1: to come back to the present. Something deepens in a relationship.
Speaker 1: We look at everything that happens to us as we
Speaker 1: often put it in a plus or minus column. Good
Speaker 1: things are good, bad things are but agreed, totally agreed.
Speaker 1: But it so happens that everything that happens, the good,
Speaker 1: the bad, and the in between can be used I've
Speaker 1: discovered to deepen. Not romance, which always has an end
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, may come back, but it'll end again. But intimacy,
Speaker 1: which has no end. There is no way that you
Speaker 1: can be we know each other now completely. Intimacy can
Speaker 1: always go deeper. You can always reveal more, you can
Speaker 1: always discover more. And I find that to be very
Speaker 1: inspiring and heartening because I can commit to that. I
Speaker 1: can't commit to love because sometimes I feel it and
Speaker 1: sometimes I don't, But I can commit to intimacy. That
Speaker 1: makes me That is a vow that I can honor.
Speaker 1: So that's the third quality of going beyond conventional ideas
Speaker 1: of love to deepen intimacy. But I want to make
Speaker 1: a very important caveat here, just for my own sake, probably,
Speaker 1: which is to say this does not include problems that
Speaker 1: are beyond the pale, which includes things like abuse and addiction.
Speaker 1: And it was really careful in the book, and I
Speaker 1: really don't want anyone to think that, oh, I should
Speaker 1: tolerate any form of discomfort because that will make me
Speaker 1: good at love. There are certain things that are not
Speaker 1: included because not only can you not control them, but
Speaker 1: the person themselves probably has no say over them. So
Speaker 1: addiction and abuse, emotional, physical, not included in this picture
Speaker 1: of love. No. I think that's really important to point out,
Speaker 1: and it brings up sort of a bigger question around
Speaker 1: approaching relationships in this manner, And I think it's a
Speaker 1: bigger question that just comes to how we approach life
Speaker 1: in general. Right, And I'm sure listeners are tired of
Speaker 1: me touting how important the Serenity prayer is, right, But
Speaker 1: in a relationship, it's that idea of like what do
Speaker 1: I want to allow and deepen into and allow to
Speaker 1: be the way it is? And in what circumstances does
Speaker 1: something need to be changed, whether that be the relationship
Speaker 1: as a whole, like I should not be here, or
Speaker 1: all gradations of that right and that and that wisdom
Speaker 1: to know those two things can be I think it's
Speaker 1: the thing that drives a lot of people crazy in
Speaker 1: a relationship or a particularly people that are in a
Speaker 1: challenging relationship. Is that constant trying to figure out what
Speaker 1: should I do here? And near the end of the
Speaker 1: book you have some questions from listeners and in one
Speaker 1: of them you quote your mother when it comes to
Speaker 1: making decisions that big decisions make themselves. And you know,
Speaker 1: I mentioned you before. I had been in a difficult
Speaker 1: marriage and what I realized was I think I knew
Speaker 1: this isn't the right thing right. But I was always
Speaker 1: in this spot of sort of evaluating in that and
Speaker 1: the only way I could stay saying at points because
Speaker 1: I would look at and go, Okay, I'm not ready
Speaker 1: to go. So what I'm gonna do is be here
Speaker 1: for this period of time. I'm going to pick three months, right,
Speaker 1: and if no new information, you know, new information comes in,
Speaker 1: that changes things. But in general, for this period of
Speaker 1: three months, I'm not going to pick this question up
Speaker 1: eight times a day, you know, I'm gonna let that
Speaker 1: question sit and I'll revisit it again. And that was
Speaker 1: so helpful to me because that constant trying to figure
Speaker 1: it out. And that's part of what you're getting at
Speaker 1: with the four Noble truths. Right. Relationships never stabilize the
Speaker 1: thing us thinking that we should And so for me,
Speaker 1: thinking I should know the answer to some of these
Speaker 1: questions and relationships which are incredibly difficult, thinking I should
Speaker 1: know the answer was a cause of great pain to me.
Speaker 1: And relaxing into Okay, I'm here now, and I'm gonna
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be here for this period of time was
Speaker 1: was ultimately really helpful to me. That sounds so smart
Speaker 1: and so kind to yourself and to your to your situation.
Speaker 1: You sort of gave yourself some space because I totally
Speaker 1: get what you're saying, and it is so I must
Speaker 1: have been so painful and it's so difficult when you're
Speaker 1: in a situation where it just doesn't feel right and
Speaker 1: you don't know what to do. That everything that happens
Speaker 1: you put in the pro or con column. You stop
Speaker 1: seeing the subtleties of your world and you just see
Speaker 1: stay or go. But inspiration and knowing, knowing, nous and
Speaker 1: interestinct come from space. They come when you make space.
Speaker 1: You can't think your way into intuition or inspiration or knowing,
Speaker 1: but if you make space, it arises, and you're very smart.
Speaker 1: Idea to just say, well for three month, I'm not
Speaker 1: going to pick up the question creates that space. So
Speaker 1: that that's an awesome story. We've all been stuck inside
Speaker 1: for a year, living amidst the really difficult conditions of
Speaker 1: this pandemic. We've had to change a lot about who
Speaker 1: we are in order to adapt, and maybe we've developed
Speaker 1: some behaviors in ways of thinking that aren't really serving
Speaker 1: us very well. This time has also brought up some
Speaker 1: fundamental questions about who we are, what matters to us,
Speaker 1: and how we want to live our lives. These are
Speaker 1: spiritual questions and they have a newfound sense of importance
Speaker 1: to many of us as things are starting to open
Speaker 1: back up. Now is the time for us to reevaluate
Speaker 1: where we are and rethink our habits and goals. We
Speaker 1: need positive, supportive and intentional paths forward to do that.
Speaker 1: We could benefit from some support. We need to reconsider
Speaker 1: how our habits are helping us to become these new
Speaker 1: versions of ourselves. And that's why I've decided to again
Speaker 1: offer the Spiritual Habits group program, and it's open for
Speaker 1: enrollment from May four through May. Go to Spiritual Habits
Speaker 1: dot net to learn all about it and sign up
Speaker 1: to join us. Translating what we know into what we
Speaker 1: do requires intentionality and skill, especially in the realm of
Speaker 1: spiritual principles like mindfulness, compassion, and perspective. When you use
Speaker 1: behavior change principles to put powerful spiritual wisdom into practice,
Speaker 1: the result is a set of transformational spiritual habits. Spiritual
Speaker 1: habits are things you do throughout your day to remember
Speaker 1: and take action on the things that really matter, thereby
Speaker 1: experiencing greater meaning and connection. Spiritual habits build the bridge
Speaker 1: to a life where we thrive. Importantly, we learned spiritual
Speaker 1: habits best when we work with others. That is one
Speaker 1: of the core orienting principles of this program. When we
Speaker 1: work alongside other people who are building their own habits,
Speaker 1: we find inspiration, hope, and support for our own practices.
Speaker 1: In this program, we support one another. Because of how
Speaker 1: we structured the program, you'll build real connections, community, and friendships.
Speaker 1: We offered this program a year ago, and I know
Speaker 1: of deep friendships that started at that time which still
Speaker 1: exists today. Small groups that met then are still meeting now.
Speaker 1: Members of that community are still connected, still supporting each other.
Speaker 1: That's the type of community we're talking about here. So,
Speaker 1: whether you're looking to develop a consistent daily meditation practice,
Speaker 1: or implement mindfulness practices into your life, or just to
Speaker 1: connect more deeply to what really matters the spirit, your
Speaker 1: Habits Group program will give you the tools you need
Speaker 1: to turn this wisdom into daily and sustainable practice, and
Speaker 1: you'll do so in a community where you belong and
Speaker 1: feel connected. If you joined by Sunday, May ninth, you'll
Speaker 1: get access to the early Bird bonus. I'm offering, which
Speaker 1: is an additional live sixty minute session with me on Sunday,
Speaker 1: May sixte During this bonus session, I'll be teaching how
Speaker 1: to make time for Spiritual Habits no matter how busy
Speaker 1: you are or what you've got going on in your life.
Speaker 1: To learn all about the program and sign up, head
Speaker 1: to spiritual Habits dot net. That spiritual habits dot net.
Speaker 1: I hope you'll join us. The other thing that you
Speaker 1: mentioned in the book, and I want to go back
Speaker 1: to kind of what you said before I sort of
Speaker 1: took us on a slight tangent, which was that intimacy
Speaker 1: is something that can always go deeper. And I love
Speaker 1: that idea that there's no end to that that you know,
Speaker 1: love is this thing, and you know a lot of
Speaker 1: times we think about romance, etcetera. And I want to
Speaker 1: read something that you wrote about passion, because I think
Speaker 1: this is really great. Passion between two people will constantly arise, abide,
Speaker 1: and dissolve. Though this is a very difficult thing to navigate,
Speaker 1: I don't think it is a problem wishing that you
Speaker 1: were in a different arc of the cycle, however, can be.
Speaker 1: When I read that, I was really really struck by it.
Speaker 1: Because again going back to your noble truths, all this
Speaker 1: stuff is always changing, and that's not a problem unless
Speaker 1: I'm only okay with a little part of the whole experience,
Speaker 1: and I and I'm determined that that's the part that
Speaker 1: has to stick around or there's a problem, right. And
Speaker 1: of course, you know, different parts of the cycle feel
Speaker 1: better than other parts of the cycle. And if you're
Speaker 1: upset because you're in a part that you don't like,
Speaker 1: I don't think that's a problem either. But I don't
Speaker 1: think you should deny that or it's I don't think
Speaker 1: it's wrong to feel sad or upset or lonely or
Speaker 1: or whatever you might feel. But I think this actually
Speaker 1: relates to what we were just talking about. Two, because
Speaker 1: I love that you chow is that quote because it's
Speaker 1: sort of saying relax, you can relax with what is,
Speaker 1: and in so doing a space will open up and
Speaker 1: then something interesting can happen. But when we're constantly driving
Speaker 1: toward an outcome or you know, sort of pounding an agenda,
Speaker 1: that space is gone and so it's very limiting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the quote that has come up in so many of
Speaker 1: the recent interviews, um, just because it just seems so
Speaker 1: relevant all the time right now is the I think
Speaker 1: it's shin Zhen Young who said it, But it's a
Speaker 1: variation on something that you know, thousands of people have said,
Speaker 1: which is that suffering equals pain times resistance. And when
Speaker 1: you were talking about you know, there are parts of
Speaker 1: that cycle that are more pleasant than other parts. Right,
Speaker 1: So there's a pleasant part and there's a less pleasant part.
Speaker 1: The less pleasant part is less pleasant, but it really
Speaker 1: starts to become suffering when I resisted. In Buddhism. There
Speaker 1: are many ways to talk about suffering, and one way
Speaker 1: is just ordinary suffering that is unavoidable where human beings
Speaker 1: we have losses, we have disappointments that you cannot avoid
Speaker 1: those things. But then there's something called the suffering of suffering,
Speaker 1: which is what you add on to it by the
Speaker 1: way you react to it or the way you think
Speaker 1: about it. So ordinary suffering hurts unavoidable. But the part
Speaker 1: that we add onto it of making up stories about
Speaker 1: it or strategies for never having it never happened again
Speaker 1: and pondering it, and that is a kind of suffering
Speaker 1: that is optional, makes me think of um. We interviewed
Speaker 1: someone named Tony Bernhard, and she's a Buddhist teacher who's
Speaker 1: dealt with chronic illness her whole life, and she talks
Speaker 1: about physical pain and she says, there's really three components
Speaker 1: to it. There's the sensation itself, right, then there is
Speaker 1: what I'm telling myself about the sensation, and then there's
Speaker 1: what I'm telling myself about what it means, and that
Speaker 1: two of those three you can work with. You can't
Speaker 1: affect the sensation, but two of the three types of
Speaker 1: things that would happen there that we consider to be
Speaker 1: suffering can be worked with. And that same sort of
Speaker 1: analogy applies to everything I think on the show. We've
Speaker 1: tended to say that's the difference between pain is unavoidable,
Speaker 1: it's what happens in life, and then suffering is that
Speaker 1: that extra layer, whereas in your case you're calling it suffering,
Speaker 1: and then you know suffering and suffering it's it's about
Speaker 1: the same thing. And this leads me to something that
Speaker 1: you wrote that I really wanted to talk about because
Speaker 1: I'm not a Buddhist teacher, but Buddhist ideas have influenced
Speaker 1: me mean very very deeply. And one of the things
Speaker 1: that people will say about Buddhism is that, you know,
Speaker 1: they'll hear the word nonattachment or detachment and they will say, well,
Speaker 1: that's a cold thing, like what is life if you're
Speaker 1: not attached? You know what kind of life is to
Speaker 1: just be sort of about everything. And I'm gonna let
Speaker 1: you elaborate on what you wrote here, but I'm just
Speaker 1: gonna write what you wrote because I think it's a
Speaker 1: great place to start. And I never am able to
Speaker 1: answer this with people. Well, which is why I grabbed me.
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I should remember that. But um,
Speaker 1: non attachment does not mean you do not feel the
Speaker 1: joy and suffering of being human. Rather, it means to
Speaker 1: recognize that everything, every experience, moment, idea, emotion, and form
Speaker 1: will arise, abide, and dissolve. Non Attachment is about staying
Speaker 1: on the ride, no matter what exactly. Well, I said that,
Speaker 1: so just of course mean to sound that way, But
Speaker 1: I I know exactly what you mean because I hear
Speaker 1: that to people wondering, saying, oh, you shouldn't be so
Speaker 1: attached when people get you know, when someone gets upset
Speaker 1: about something which really pisces me off. Um, And we
Speaker 1: think that non attachment means sort of converting everything into
Speaker 1: an equal tone like a mid range, or not getting
Speaker 1: upset by upsetting things. And actually non attachment means the opposite.
Speaker 1: It means feeling everything fully, directly on the spot, and
Speaker 1: then moving on when with it, not not too soon
Speaker 1: and not too late. But it means opening and feeling
Speaker 1: everything fully. It means the opposite of what most people think.
Speaker 1: This is my interpretation, which is a kind of reserve.
Speaker 1: It means going way towards what you're experiencing, not being
Speaker 1: reserved about it. And I have to say I also
Speaker 1: noticed that people that tout non attachment as an important
Speaker 1: strategy and marker of spiritual progress are very attached to
Speaker 1: their ideas about non attachment. So it's possible to be
Speaker 1: attached to the idea of non attachment. And you know
Speaker 1: that's a misstep. I'm guilty as charged on that when
Speaker 1: it points in my life. You know, like you know,
Speaker 1: your reaction is is too much. You should be more.
Speaker 1: I like the idea everything should be the same tone.
Speaker 1: A spiritual teacher I really admire says it in the
Speaker 1: way of you know, this is not freedom from things,
Speaker 1: this is freedom to experience them. So it's not freedom
Speaker 1: from experience. It's freedom to have experience fully to go
Speaker 1: into it, you know, And I just love that's a
Speaker 1: slight twist on like one word, but it really gets
Speaker 1: to kind of what we're we're talking about, which is
Speaker 1: that a spiritual practice done right, at least for me,
Speaker 1: means that I can experience life. I don't have to hide.
Speaker 1: And so I I just was really struck by the
Speaker 1: way you worded non attachment and that idea of that.
Speaker 1: We think making everything an even tone is what non
Speaker 1: attachment is. So um, it was a good thing to
Speaker 1: have to to be able to answer people, because that
Speaker 1: is the most confounding question I get. And that's almost
Speaker 1: always the criticism of boot. Isn't that I hear from people.
Speaker 1: It's it's that one, you know, it's about not feeling like,
Speaker 1: what's life? If you don't feel anything? Yeah, well, good
Speaker 1: luck with that. It's also it's very misplaced, but I understand,
Speaker 1: I understand how it's easy to interpret it that way.
Speaker 1: But when you say the spiritual path done right, and
Speaker 1: the first thing that I thought of was a spiritual
Speaker 1: path done right in the Buddhist view as I understand it,
Speaker 1: which is limited is your life. There's no difference between
Speaker 1: the spiritual path and your life. Your life is the
Speaker 1: spiritual path. So ideas about non attachment and detachment and
Speaker 1: some notion that you should become somewhat inhuman is the
Speaker 1: opposite of the Buddhist teachings, which says fully human, fully here.
Speaker 1: My friend Michael Carroll, a wonderful teacher and writer, says
Speaker 1: in meditation, we're not trying to get anywhere, which of
Speaker 1: course is sometimes hard to swallow because we have an
Speaker 1: agenda for our meditation practice. But no, he says, we're
Speaker 1: not trying to get anywhere, and this I think is
Speaker 1: true of the entire path. We're trying to be somewhere.
Speaker 1: That is a beautiful, beautiful thing that he said. And
Speaker 1: non attachment means non attachment to everything except for where
Speaker 1: you are. Yeah. I love that being. You know, it's
Speaker 1: not about trying to go somewhere, it's about trying to
Speaker 1: be somewhere. That's really really resonates, and I think, you know,
Speaker 1: my meditation practice has really transformed and it continues to
Speaker 1: transform the more that I learned to do this, which
Speaker 1: is to really let it be. And the challenge with
Speaker 1: that is it's very counterintuitive. On one level, because what
Speaker 1: I do most of the days, I just let my
Speaker 1: mind be and it runs all over creation and all
Speaker 1: kinds of bad patterns. I mean, just like doing absolutely
Speaker 1: nothing right isn't exactly what works, you know, for for
Speaker 1: a lot of people. So I think when we go
Speaker 1: into meditation, we get this sense like, Okay, now the
Speaker 1: job is to kind of pin this thing down and
Speaker 1: get it into this space. And I've really been working
Speaker 1: with learning how do you do both those things? How
Speaker 1: do you like? And I love the precision and the openness,
Speaker 1: you know, how do you have the precision of staying
Speaker 1: with that thing and the openness that allows everything else
Speaker 1: to happen around it? And it's it really has deepened
Speaker 1: my meditation practice and my appreciation for what we're really
Speaker 1: trying to do. And I read meditation books for a
Speaker 1: lot of years, and I know people were saying this.
Speaker 1: I am not saying that this was like not written.
Speaker 1: I just didn't hear it for a long time, right,
Speaker 1: I know what you mean, You know what you mean?
Speaker 1: Chuckym Trump tobean meditation master who brought the Shambala teachings
Speaker 1: the lineage that I practice in. I was just reading
Speaker 1: rereading an incredible book that you wrote called Cutting through
Speaker 1: Spiritual Materialism, which is actually the very first book I
Speaker 1: ever read when I started meditating, and actually have it
Speaker 1: right here so I can read you this one sentence quote.
Speaker 1: Meditation is not a question of forcing the mind back
Speaker 1: to some particular object, but of bringing it back down
Speaker 1: from the dream world into reality. Oh that was a
Speaker 1: Mic Drob moment for me. Yeah, we're not trying to
Speaker 1: get somewhere. We're not trying to even be good at meditating,
Speaker 1: because who cares. If you're the world's best follower of
Speaker 1: the breath, it doesn't matter. We're trying to be good
Speaker 1: at being here and coming down from the dream world
Speaker 1: into reality, which is fierce and beautiful and horrifying and
Speaker 1: confounding and joyous. Yeah. That's a great line. So we
Speaker 1: are at the end of our time here. You and
Speaker 1: I are going to go have a little bit more
Speaker 1: of a post show conversation that is available to our
Speaker 1: Patreon supporters, so if you're interested, folks, check that out.
Speaker 1: And I think what we're going to talk about is
Speaker 1: the I'm never going to say this right, Uh, it's
Speaker 1: the psychoanalyst Karen Horney, the Hornevian directional theory, so I've
Speaker 1: actually pronounced horn i, which saves us the embarrassment of
Speaker 1: saying horny parents horn i, and then Hornevian directional theory,
Speaker 1: which I love talking about, so forward to that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I read it and I was like, how
Speaker 1: have I never heard this before? Because it it is
Speaker 1: really a powerful thing. So we're going to do that
Speaker 1: in the post show conversation. But Susan, thanks so much
Speaker 1: for taking the time to come back on and writing
Speaker 1: another wonderful book. Oh thank you. It's always such a
Speaker 1: pleasure to talk to you. Thank you so much for
Speaker 1: allowing me to do so. Okay, bye. If what you
Speaker 1: just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a
Speaker 1: monthly donation to support the one You Feed podcast. When
Speaker 1: you join our remember Ship community with this monthly pledge,
Speaker 1: you get lots of exclusive members only benefits. It's our
Speaker 1: way of saying thank you for your support. Now. We
Speaker 1: are so grateful for the members of our community. We
Speaker 1: wouldn't be able to do what we do without their support,
Speaker 1: and we don't take a single dollar for granted. To
Speaker 1: learn more, make a donation at any level and become
Speaker 1: a member of the one you Feed community. Go to
Speaker 1: one you feed dot net slash join The One you
Speaker 1: Feed podcast. Would like to sincerely thank our sponsors for
Speaker 1: supporting the show