1 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News. Hey Ryan, hiwan, how 2 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:10,520 Speaker 1: are you. 3 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 2: I'm good? Thanks. So what are we doing this morning? 4 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 1: We're going to take a look at the Chinese version 5 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:20,160 Speaker 1: of BING and assess the censorship that Microsoft has built 6 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 1: into it. 7 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 2: Ryan Gallagher is Bloomberg's investigative reporter on cybersecurity. He's asking 8 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:30,480 Speaker 2: me to do an experiment on Microsoft's search engine BING. 9 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:33,479 Speaker 2: So let's start. What do we have to do? 10 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:35,879 Speaker 1: First of all, we're going to go to the Chinese 11 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 1: version of BING, So you're going to need to load 12 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:42,240 Speaker 1: up your VPN and you can simulate a Chinese Internet 13 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 1: connection and then you go to cn dot bing dot com. 14 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 2: All right, got that search. 15 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:50,200 Speaker 1: For Tianaman Square massacre. 16 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 2: Okay? 17 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 1: And I will search on my end and I'm in 18 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 1: the UK, so I get an international version of BING 19 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 1: that doesn't have this censorship integrated within it. So we 20 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 1: can compare the results that both of us are seeing. 21 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 2: Ooh, this will be interesting. So what do you see there? 22 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 1: Yeah? Well, I see the top link here as to 23 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 1: Wikipedia and it's an article in nineteen eighty Ninetyanamen Square 24 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: protests and massacres the title of it. I can also 25 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:25,320 Speaker 1: see images and links to videos on YouTube and other 26 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:30,679 Speaker 1: websites showing footage from the protests and the incidents at 27 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:31,640 Speaker 1: Tianamen Square. 28 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 2: The Tienamen Square massacre was a student led protest that 29 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 2: was brutally repressed in Beijing in nineteen eighty nine. Demonstrators 30 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 2: called for economic and political reform peacefully for weeks, but 31 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 2: in the end, the Chinese military was brought in and 32 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 2: killed the protesters in mass It is one of the 33 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 2: most sensitive and heavily censored topics in China, one that 34 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 2: the Chinese government wants nobody to remember. Just to be clear, 35 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 2: on my page, there's nothing that alludes to massacre or violence, 36 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 2: or student protests or certainly deaths. And the top search 37 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 2: that shows up on being in China is the ballast 38 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 2: for the arc of world peace and justice. 39 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:16,959 Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is what you find is very very 40 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: striking difference between the version that I could see in 41 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 1: the version that you can see. What's actually happened with 42 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 1: the version of being in China, according to the sources 43 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:30,520 Speaker 1: that we've talked to, is a deliberate censorship system that 44 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: has been created in compliance with what the Chinese government wants. 45 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 2: Today. On our show, Microsoft's decade long compliance with China's 46 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 2: censorship regulations and an inside account of the system the 47 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 2: companies built. This is the big take from Bloomberg News. 48 00:02:53,680 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 2: I'm wan ha. To be clear, Microsoft's Bing is not 49 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 2: the Google of China. The market is dominated by a 50 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 2: Chinese search engine called bay Do, but Bing has been 51 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:11,639 Speaker 2: gradually growing its market share. 52 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 1: According to the statistics that we have, you know is 53 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: now the second most popular search engine, even if it 54 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: has a much smaller market share than buy Do. So 55 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:23,239 Speaker 1: that's significant. 56 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:27,080 Speaker 2: And while other Western search engines such as Google are 57 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 2: completely blocked by China, Microsoft's Being stands out because it's 58 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 2: still accessible on the mainland. 59 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 1: Being is the only Western search engine that's available in China. 60 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 1: So that there is an American search engine operating in 61 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: China and complying with Chinese censorship in this way just 62 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 1: as really significant, especially in the currency of political environment. 63 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 1: There is a lot of tension between China and the 64 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 1: United States. 65 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 2: Microsoft's compliance in China has been known for years, but 66 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 2: Ryan's reporting in BusinessWeek is one of the first comprehensive 67 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 2: inside accounts of the sophisticated censorship system the company has 68 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 2: in place. 69 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, the story is based on years of reporting and 70 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: cultivating all kinds of sources to current informer people who 71 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:20,479 Speaker 1: work from Microsoft right up to the executive level. 72 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:24,599 Speaker 2: Throughout Ryan's reporting, he found that censorship on being China 73 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 2: covers an array of topics way beyond politics. 74 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 1: Almost every facet of society is touched by this human 75 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:36,040 Speaker 1: rights or climate change or you know Nobel Peace Prize winners, 76 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:39,600 Speaker 1: or corruption within the Communist Party, or some political scandal 77 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 1: or even about the Dalai Lama or you know, it's 78 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:45,599 Speaker 1: very broad censorship. 79 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 2: Back in nineteen ninety two, Microsoft was one of the 80 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 2: first American companies to set up such a big business 81 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 2: operation in China. 82 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: They really went all in, and Bell Gates, the co founder, 83 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 1: has always been a very big proponent of investing in 84 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 1: China and growing his business in China. 85 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:11,919 Speaker 2: The company spent years cultivating and building connections and finally 86 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 2: one government approval to run the search engine. But the 87 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:20,040 Speaker 2: timing of Bing's China launch was peculiar. It went live 88 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 2: on June first, two thousand and nine, just three days 89 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 2: before the twentieth anniversary of the Tienaman Square massacre. 90 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:31,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, pretty bad time. And because every year when the 91 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 1: anniversary happens, the government has a tendency to try to 92 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:40,839 Speaker 1: suppress any kind of outpouring of support for what happened 93 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty nine, so tensions always ramp up. 94 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 2: At this period, the Chinese government was on high alert 95 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:55,599 Speaker 2: for anything on the internet related to the Tieneman Square protests. Meanwhile, 96 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 2: at Microsoft, they. 97 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 1: Have everything set up. They've got all the the approvals 98 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 1: in place, they have all the infrastructure, a really big infrastructure, 99 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:08,840 Speaker 1: all the servers. It's already to go online. And when they, 100 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 1: you know, finally pushed the button to make it go 101 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 1: live so that people in China can finally access this 102 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: heavily anticipated new search engine. Quite quickly, it's suddenly just gone. 103 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:24,599 Speaker 1: Anyone trying to visit the site is getting an error page, 104 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: you know that, It's like it vanishes. 105 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 2: Microsoft was dumbfounded. Initially, they thought there was a technical 106 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 2: problem on their site, maybe the server had crashed, maybe 107 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:41,360 Speaker 2: there was too much traffic, but everything was running fine. 108 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:45,480 Speaker 2: And after floria phone calls between Microsoft's lawyers and Chinese 109 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 2: government officials and explanation emerged. 110 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 1: The Chinese government was feeling so worried about the launch 111 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 1: of this search engine. Just before the anniversary of the 112 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 1: Turnament Square massacred that they actually just blocked the traffic 113 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:02,479 Speaker 1: to Bing, so they pulled it offline before it really 114 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 1: got a chance, and then Microsoft had to renegotiate with 115 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:07,279 Speaker 1: the government to get it back up again. 116 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 2: And the blocking of being wasn't just about sensitivities around 117 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 2: the Tieneman Square massacre. 118 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 1: Well, I think it was probably a very deliberate strategy 119 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 1: by the Chinese government to kind of show who was 120 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 1: boss in a way, and they were, you know, they 121 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 1: were trying to say it, we're in control here, not you. 122 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 2: That message was heard loud and clear at Microsoft. Ryan 123 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 2: says the tech company had already planned to integrate the 124 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 2: censorship requested by the Chinese government, but his sources told 125 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 2: him that the company went above and beyond. 126 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 1: A lot of the censorship that we see on Being 127 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 1: China is self censorship, is Microsoft choosing which topics to remove. 128 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 1: What I was told was that their possession was that 129 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 1: they would just over censor, they would overfilter because that 130 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 1: was the easier thing to do, rather than having been 131 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 1: pulled offline again. 132 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 2: In response to Ryan's story, Microsoft said in a statement 133 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 2: quote Bing is the least censored search engine in China 134 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 2: and is often the only accessible source for volumes of 135 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 2: information there. The statement goes on to say Microsoft only 136 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 2: censors results in response to a narrow legal order and 137 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 2: regularly pushes back. And just as Microsoft was getting used 138 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 2: to operating under China's restrictions, Google was giving up. In 139 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 2: twenty ten, following an attack on its infrastructure, Google decided 140 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 2: to quit China, citing the censorship and cybersecurity concerns. 141 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 1: And it was a really massive cyber attack that Google 142 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 1: said was intended to gather information from Google servers about 143 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:54,199 Speaker 1: certain Chinese dissidents who were using like Gmail and other 144 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 1: Google services. And also later they said the censorship that 145 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:00,680 Speaker 1: they were being forced to comply with on Chinese version 146 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:06,680 Speaker 1: of Google was just increasing exponentially and they couldn't tolerate that. 147 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 1: So Google ended up leaving and Bang was left there. 148 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 2: The leaders at Microsoft took a completely different view from Google. 149 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:18,200 Speaker 2: Here's co founder Bill Gates on ABC News responding to 150 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:22,440 Speaker 2: Google's departure from China. Listen to how he frames China's 151 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 2: censorship of being Well. 152 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:27,440 Speaker 3: It's a complex issue. The role of the Internet in 153 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 3: every country has been very positive, letting people speak out 154 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 3: in new ways, and fortunately the Chinese efforts to censor 155 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 3: the Internet have been very limited. You know, it's easy 156 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:41,200 Speaker 3: to go around it, and so I think keeping the 157 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:44,319 Speaker 3: Internet thriving there is very important. 158 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 2: A spokesperson for the Chinese Embassy in Washington, DC said 159 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 2: in a statement that China's Internet is quote free, open, 160 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 2: and orderly, and that it welcomed foreign companies to operate 161 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 2: in the country. It added that foreign invested enterprises in 162 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 2: China should quote abide by China's laws and regulations, respect 163 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 2: the interests, culture, and traditions of the general public, and 164 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 2: assume the corresponding social responsibilities. Ryan, why is China so 165 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:16,320 Speaker 2: obsessed with censoring the Internet. 166 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 1: Well, you know, it's authoritarian government is run by the 167 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:23,679 Speaker 1: Chinese Communist Party, so it's just about you know, they 168 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 1: want their version of events to be the only version 169 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 1: of events. The bigger picture, of course, is that they 170 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 1: don't want a challenge to their power. They don't want 171 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 1: people to have information that might lead them to question authority. 172 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 1: So it's fundamentally about control, and it's about power. 173 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:46,199 Speaker 2: And really giving people access to only a slice of reality, right, 174 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:47,680 Speaker 2: not everything that's out there. 175 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, and beyond I think beyond a slice of reality, 176 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 1: it's like an alternative reality as a reality that is 177 00:10:55,760 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 1: filtered through Chinese Communist party glasses if you like, you know, 178 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: is their worldview which they create for themselves. It's oftentimes 179 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 1: a completely false impression of the truth. And so what 180 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 1: bing is doing here is helping to reinforce that alternative 181 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 1: reality through its version of being in China. 182 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 2: After the break, how Microsoft helps feed an alternative reality 183 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 2: on the Chinese web and why now? The technology that 184 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 2: enables web censorship in China is generic and neutral. It's 185 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:43,239 Speaker 2: the same technology that filters out child pornography or copyrighted 186 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 2: music in searches. 187 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 1: So the technology behind the filtering system we were told 188 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 1: involves a combination of machine learning, so kind of automated 189 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 1: systems that will be able to assess different content and 190 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 1: stop it from getting through to the search engine, and 191 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:06,199 Speaker 1: also human reviewers, so just people who will actually review 192 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 1: the content on the search and flag anything that they 193 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 1: think shouldn't be there. 194 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:16,200 Speaker 2: Over the years, censorship in China has increased exponentially and 195 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 2: the blacklist has only gotten longer. And with that, scrutiny 196 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:25,959 Speaker 2: and criticism of Microsoft's operation in China has gotten louder. 197 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 1: Independent groups like the Citizen lab and they've possessed upwards 198 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:35,560 Speaker 1: of one hundred thousand different phrases and terms, and they're 199 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 1: seeing those removed from Bing. And actually, the researchers said 200 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 1: that in some cases, on political issues in particular, Bing 201 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 1: was actually more aggressive in its censorship than the domestic 202 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 1: Chinese search engines like Baydu, which I found extraordinary. You 203 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:54,840 Speaker 1: know that in an American search engine would be censoring 204 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:56,679 Speaker 1: more than the domestic Chinese ones. 205 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 2: Even inside Microsoft, Bloomberg's reporting found that employees had become 206 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 2: disturbed with how far reaching Bing's censorship was. They raised 207 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:11,560 Speaker 2: red flags over the company's practice in China and called 208 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:16,559 Speaker 2: out Microsoft for acting against its own stated principles. On 209 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 2: some occasions, Microsoft did push back on government censorship. In 210 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 2: twenty thirteen, it stopped operating a blacklist that blocked people 211 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 2: from using certain words in its Chinese version of Skype 212 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 2: that prompted China to ban the service, And in twenty 213 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 2: twenty one, Microsoft shut down the Chinese version of LinkedIn 214 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 2: after criticism that it blocked reporters' profiles. Ryan, is it 215 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 2: plausible that Microsoft would ever shut down Bing? 216 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 1: It's such a good question, and really I've been scratching 217 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 1: my head trying to figure this out, and I've talked 218 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 1: to a lot of people about it, and you know, 219 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 1: the general consensus form my sources is that the reason 220 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:02,320 Speaker 1: they're still operating it is simply because BING is heavily 221 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 1: integrated into other Microsoft products like Windows and also the 222 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 1: Microsoft Edge Internet browser in China. You know, Bing is 223 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 1: the default search engine on that, so it's like it's 224 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 1: baked into other products that it makes it more complicated 225 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 1: for them to just get rid of it. 226 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 2: And then there's the issue of labor. 227 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 1: Also, another reason that cited to me from our sources 228 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 1: was that actually a surprising number of the sort of 229 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 1: core engineering team that the key people in Microsoft who 230 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 1: are developing being that's actually being done by people in China. 231 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 1: So they're not just working on the Chinese version, they're 232 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 1: working on the international version. So if you get rid 233 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: of being in China, it would leave them in this 234 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 1: really difficult situation because the key people who are working 235 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 1: on it are all still in China. 236 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 2: Outside of China, Microsoft's Chinese model has set a precedent 237 00:14:56,360 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 2: for other governments that want to control access to information online. 238 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 2: In recent years, the Russian government has asked Microsoft to 239 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 2: remove thousands of pieces of content from Bing, including links 240 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 2: to political, opposition and news websites, and according to what 241 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 2: the employees told Bloomberg, the company has often complied, and 242 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 2: as that censorship intensifies, it's also left room for mistakes. 243 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 2: In twenty twenty one, shortly before the anniversary of the 244 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 2: Tieneman Square massacre, Microsoft accidentally applied the Chinese censorship filter globally. 245 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 2: So when someone, no matter where they were in the world, 246 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 2: tried to search for the quote tank man on Bing, 247 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 2: that's the iconic image of the loan protester blocking a 248 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 2: row of tanks, they were unable to find anything. 249 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 1: It shows how difficult it can be for them to 250 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 1: kind of have this dual system where they have this 251 00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 1: really heavily censored version in China and then the rest 252 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 1: of the world trying to operate a more open search 253 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 1: engine that isn't filtered. It's difficult to do both because 254 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 1: it seems like the censorship can sometimes pollute the nonsensored versions, 255 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 1: whether accidentally or otherwise. 256 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 2: Ran If Microsoft wants to stay in China, does it 257 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 2: really have any better options? I mean, do they absolutely 258 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 2: have to censor and even over sensor. 259 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 1: This is the type rope that Microsoft has been trying 260 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 1: to walk. You know, this is the dilemma that they've 261 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 1: been trying to navigate. I don't believe for a second 262 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 1: that in an ideal world, Microsoft would want to be 263 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 1: doing this, but they're choosing to do it because they 264 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 1: want to be in China. And the question is has 265 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 1: it gone too far? And a lot of people, certainly 266 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: in the human rights community, think that has gone far 267 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 1: too far. You know, you just have to look at 268 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 1: the extent of the censorship and it's actually shocking. So 269 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 1: the question of you know, is it possible to have 270 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 1: a more moderated version of it, I think the answer 271 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:07,479 Speaker 1: is probably no, because that's what has been tried. Google 272 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,520 Speaker 1: tried to do it. Being that they've tried to do it, 273 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:14,200 Speaker 1: and what you would really need is for a fundamental 274 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 1: change in the government itself, because really the root of 275 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 1: this is is the government, and Microsoft isn't in control 276 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:23,400 Speaker 1: of what the Chinese government is doing. 277 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 2: And for now they seem to be okay with it. 278 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:29,640 Speaker 1: Well yeah, I mean they're still there, they're still doing it, 279 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 1: they're still defending it. So, you know, I think there's 280 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 1: a lot of people in Microsoft, frankly, who are deeply 281 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:38,600 Speaker 1: uncomfortable with it, but you know, the powers that be 282 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:40,719 Speaker 1: within the company want to be there, and so as 283 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:42,680 Speaker 1: long as that is the case, they're going to be there. 284 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 2: This is the Big Take from Bloomberg News. I'm oneh 285 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 2: This episode was produced by Young Young and Naomi Ryan 286 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 2: Gallagher part of the story. It was mixed by Young 287 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:07,119 Speaker 2: Young and Rishi but Jay Gold. Our senior producers are 288 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 2: Naomi Shaven and Elizabeth Ponso. Nicole Beemster Bower is our 289 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:14,680 Speaker 2: executive producer, and Sage Bauman is Bloomberg's head of podcast. 290 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to the Big Take. We'll be back tomorrow.