Speaker 1: This is Gavin Newsom and this is the Daily Shows.
Speaker 1: Jordan Klepper. Jordan, welcome, Thank you for being on the podcast.
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: Jesus. So what I mean we were you know, we
Speaker 1: were just commenting full disclosure right before you came on
Speaker 1: the air. Just a lot of stress, a lot of anxiety,
Speaker 1: a lot of you know, people feeling the more pessimistic.
Speaker 1: We talk about doom scrolling, but just this notion like
Speaker 1: feeling like things are way out of control, particularly this week.
Speaker 1: So many contemporary things to talk about, and then I
Speaker 1: want to talk about your career and all the extraordinary
Speaker 1: things you're doing, but we'd be remiss if not talking
Speaker 1: about this week in the United States, what's going on
Speaker 1: in Texas and redistricting, what's happening in states like California, Illinois,
Speaker 1: New York as it relates to that is subject, but
Speaker 1: particularly on the issue that really struck a chord with
Speaker 1: a lot of folks, and that's on stats, on labor, stats,
Speaker 1: on this notion that we can fire the messenger, the
Speaker 1: issue of truth and trust and feeling like America, as
Speaker 1: Tom Freeman wrote today, is being deconstructed. I mean, where
Speaker 1: are you as someone that you know is deeply ameshed
Speaker 1: in the body politic and crosses over into points of
Speaker 1: view that are not often shared, and you have a
Speaker 1: deeper understanding of the world we're living in. Where are
Speaker 1: you in terms of this you know moment we're living in.
Speaker 1: Are you pessimistic or more optimist?
Speaker 2: Well, I mean I'm looking for a big enough rock
Speaker 2: to hide under. More often than not, it's hard to
Speaker 2: get caught up in the news cycle. And when I
Speaker 2: go out there and talk to people as well, not
Speaker 2: only on the road and talk to people of different
Speaker 2: political stripes, but I do a lot of stand up
Speaker 2: and I do a lot of talking with an audience, and.
Speaker 3: People are scared, and I get that you are not wrong.
Speaker 2: It is infuriating to turn on the news and hear
Speaker 2: that suddenly, you know, reporting the stats and numbers can
Speaker 2: get you fired. It's not a terrible surprise, I will
Speaker 2: tell you what. I'm out in the field and talking
Speaker 2: with a lot of MAGA supporters, and numbers come out.
Speaker 2: Everybody sort of has their own statistician at that point,
Speaker 2: everybody has their own guide they can reference. And in
Speaker 2: so many ways, I think this Trump administration feels like
Speaker 2: a reflection of the Internet itself. And this might be
Speaker 2: the ludite in me, but it's so easy for us
Speaker 2: now to go search out the facts that make us
Speaker 2: feel comfortable and reinforce the worldview that we have. And
Speaker 2: the conversations I have with people on theline, which is
Speaker 2: the worst place to have conversations with people, are often
Speaker 2: footnoted with websites and numbers and data that don't check out,
Speaker 2: because that's what you do. Now you have a conversation,
Speaker 2: you find the thing to make you right. And I'd
Speaker 2: like to have hope in the higher levels that those
Speaker 2: conversations are based on fact I don't have a lot
Speaker 2: of that help. And so seeing the firing that took
Speaker 2: place this week is infuriating. It scares a lot of
Speaker 2: people in my orbit, but it's not surprising. It feels
Speaker 2: like an extension of the Internet.
Speaker 1: So what I mean, what do you do in that instance?
Speaker 1: I mean, it's interesting when you say it's not surprising.
Speaker 1: So often I hear that, and that's infuriating as well,
Speaker 1: because then it's almost a permission slip that it's sort
Speaker 1: of acceptable because the normal we've allowed a normalization of deviancy,
Speaker 1: and so nothing then becomes surprising, and then it becomes
Speaker 1: we're sort of complicit in it all of a sudden
Speaker 1: sort of manifests uh. And I think that's the great
Speaker 1: struggle that we're all having, is that we're seeing American reverse.
Speaker 1: We're seeing you know, we're seeing truth and trust, We're
Speaker 1: seeing historical facts being rewritten. We're seeing the sort of
Speaker 1: cultural purge happening, the shock and awe overwhelming us. Uh,
Speaker 1: and the zig and the zag that is the distractions
Speaker 1: day in and day out. So how do you I mean,
Speaker 1: it's I love that you say, sort of manifestation of
Speaker 1: what's online is becoming offline with Trump. How do you
Speaker 1: start to navigate that? I mean, is that the work
Speaker 1: you're doing to sort of distill the essence of that
Speaker 1: in using comedy as an entry way to have that conversation,
Speaker 1: or what is your diagnosis beyond that in terms of
Speaker 1: what you do to address it?
Speaker 2: Well, I think we're all living under the fire hose
Speaker 2: of information and news and chaos, and some of that
Speaker 2: can be argued as strategy from a Trump administration, some
Speaker 2: I think as an extension of a mindset I do
Speaker 2: think as reclient made an interesting point recently that was
Speaker 2: I think a lot of people give the Trump administration
Speaker 2: credit for their diversions and their tangents, and I think
Speaker 2: there's credence in something like that. But I think also
Speaker 2: it's a manifestation of a mindset that he has that
Speaker 2: is constantly distracted. And he's been given the ability to
Speaker 2: be distracted and to lose interest in Elon Musk and
Speaker 2: to jump into something else. And so again it feels
Speaker 2: like we're living in a world that is a manifestation
Speaker 2: of his mindset, an internet mindset, a selfish mindset, and
Speaker 2: there is this fire who's.
Speaker 3: Fire hose of news that.
Speaker 2: Is politically advantageous when you want to get your own
Speaker 2: things across that might not be popular from a comedic standpoint,
Speaker 2: when we show up at work and we have this
Speaker 2: fire hose, like, our job is not to solve it.
Speaker 2: Our job is to find the chaos, see where the
Speaker 2: bullshit is, try to make some sense of it and
Speaker 2: some humor of it. I think, at its at its
Speaker 2: clearest and best, satire can boil down a feeling and
Speaker 2: a moment into something that's digestible and fast.
Speaker 3: And so for us we try to.
Speaker 2: Wave wade through the fire host find what is important
Speaker 2: and also find what we can stick our pov onto
Speaker 2: with something that hopefully is funny and connects. But it's
Speaker 2: a constant conversation that we're having day in and day
Speaker 2: out as to like, how do you deal with this?
Speaker 2: And what what is a distraction? Again, we are legislating.
Speaker 2: Our job is not to fix the solution. Our job
Speaker 2: is as a media satire to look at it and
Speaker 2: find the humor within it. But we are constantly having
Speaker 2: to make game time calls as to like, are we
Speaker 2: covering what happened in the Oval office? Are we covering
Speaker 2: what's happening with these ice raids? Where does humors have
Speaker 2: a place, where is it best utilized? And how do
Speaker 2: we make that work for us at our audience.
Speaker 1: It's interesting you say that because you know it's interesting
Speaker 1: with the Daily Show generally, and you know John Stewart
Speaker 1: had sort of peak and I remember being ready, and
Speaker 1: I honestly I'm not. I think I told John this
Speaker 1: when we sat down we did something on the death
Speaker 1: penalty a few years ago, and I think I told him,
Speaker 1: I said, I'm really pissed at you. You walked away
Speaker 1: from your show with peak influence where folks were tuning
Speaker 1: in and particularly young folks, but people like me that
Speaker 1: were washing and everything going on in cable that wanted
Speaker 1: you to distill the essence using the lens of comedy,
Speaker 1: but also sort of guide us in a deeper understanding,
Speaker 1: distill through that wit and witticism and satire where we
Speaker 1: are and where we need to go. And I remember
Speaker 1: he retired right when at the beginning of that election, like, no,
Speaker 1: you don't get to go John, that you don't. You
Speaker 1: have a responsibility. So I'm interested. You know people, I
Speaker 1: think you know, particularly you Jordan. We're going to get
Speaker 1: to you specifically. I mean your your improvisational skills, your
Speaker 1: capacity and and sort of legendary capacity to go in
Speaker 1: and to show empathy and compassion humanity to people you
Speaker 1: disagree with, to go to these Trump rallies, to meet
Speaker 1: with people they still feel comfort level to you. That
Speaker 1: attracts folks that are looking for guidance, looking for direction.
Speaker 1: And I wonder, you know, in a world where you
Speaker 1: just you're watching the cable networks and it's just a
Speaker 1: lot of noise, don't you feel And I'm curious if
Speaker 1: you do, But do you feel that comedy and the
Speaker 1: work you're doing actually is now more important uh in
Speaker 1: terms of providing the way uh and and not just
Speaker 1: distilling a moment of understanding, but also providing a light
Speaker 1: in some direction.
Speaker 2: I mean that's well as a as a person in
Speaker 2: the entertainment industry and an actor, I do have a
Speaker 2: sense of self importance that does make me think, Yes,
Speaker 2: I'm more and more important every single day. Cover reduce
Speaker 2: him every single day. I'm more important to the general
Speaker 2: politic of it all. Yes, I mean, I will say,
Speaker 2: like going back to when I connected to The Daily Show,
Speaker 2: I used to watch it in college. I wasn't interested
Speaker 2: in politics. I wasn't connected, I wasn't locked in. Quite frankly,
Speaker 2: I don't know how college students do it today. Like
Speaker 2: I had the luxury of being naive about the world
Speaker 2: around me and just focusing on improv comedy and drinking
Speaker 2: a forty ounce and not throwing up like that was
Speaker 2: like my journey as a twenty one year old. And
Speaker 2: now a twenty one year old has to be so
Speaker 2: connected to the world around them. But I watched John
Speaker 2: on The Daily Show, and this guy was able to
Speaker 2: distill ideas quickly. He wasn't the end of information, but
Speaker 2: he was a conduit to learning more about something, and
Speaker 2: I trusted him. I didn't think he was bullshitting. I
Speaker 2: think media has bias on it. Every media has biased
Speaker 2: on it. I want every person who watches television to
Speaker 2: understand what bias is there. It doesn't mean there's not
Speaker 2: great people who are trying to tell you the truth
Speaker 2: as they know it, but like there's bias in the
Speaker 2: structures and the institutions and the places that tell us
Speaker 2: the things that we have. I think what a lot
Speaker 2: of people get out of the Daily Show. What I
Speaker 2: got out of the Daily Show was like, I get
Speaker 2: Jon Stewart.
Speaker 3: He's a comedian.
Speaker 2: He's trying to tell us something funny, and I think
Speaker 2: bullshit is his barometer, and when he sees something that
Speaker 2: doesn't sit right with him, he goes at it, and
Speaker 2: so you knew his bias.
Speaker 3: I think a lot of people.
Speaker 2: When they watch our stuff, they watch my stuff, they
Speaker 2: know my bias. I'm not an unbiased journalist trying to
Speaker 2: go out there and get What I want to do
Speaker 2: is find something funny, find hypocrisy, find irony.
Speaker 3: I care about things. I'm progressive in nature.
Speaker 2: And I do my research when I go out there
Speaker 2: and I think people can connect to me in no
Speaker 2: wa that about what I'm doing out in the field,
Speaker 2: and quite frankly, when I'm doing the man on the
Speaker 2: street stuff in the field, like I have the luxury
Speaker 2: of not being a journalist in some ways pretending just
Speaker 2: to be unbiased in their conversations, I can have a
Speaker 2: goal and a hypocrisy that I'm trying to put forward.
Speaker 2: I can be relentless in the ways in which I
Speaker 2: go after somebody to try to find that hypocrisy there,
Speaker 2: and hopefully I can be also empathetic within that that
Speaker 2: that not only gets me something revealing about somebody, but
Speaker 2: also has some sort of connection. So for me, that's
Speaker 2: sort of how I see the work that we do there.
Speaker 2: And you know, the level of import I think that
Speaker 2: will be on an audience to decide. But where I
Speaker 2: always get from the satirist that I love, quite frankly,
Speaker 2: John Stewart, Stephen Colbert, like the people I grew up with,
Speaker 2: the people I get to work with like, is that
Speaker 2: you understand they're biased, you understand their tenacity, and because
Speaker 2: of that they can cut to the quick and my
Speaker 2: faith quote about humor George Saunders, the author says like
Speaker 2: humor is what happens when we're told the truth more
Speaker 2: swiftly and quickly than we're accustomed to. And I think
Speaker 2: like at it best, like in those moments where you
Speaker 2: have a fire hose of trump bs, like that quick
Speaker 2: crystallized joke or revelation, like can articulate through the through the.
Speaker 1: Chaos, love it? Were you, by the way you look
Speaker 1: at Robin Williams, George Carlin, I may were there folks
Speaker 1: in the political frame that you I mean particularly, I
Speaker 1: mean you mentioned obviously Colbert and will get to that
Speaker 1: in a moment, and John himself obviously. But when you
Speaker 1: were growing up, when you were that twenty one year
Speaker 1: old hanging out in college, it wasn't that. Were you
Speaker 1: attracted to political comedy? Were you pacted to that sort
Speaker 1: of wit and witticism, that capacity to distill the essence
Speaker 1: of a moment I loved?
Speaker 2: In college, I found Muddy Python, which was political in
Speaker 2: a different sense, I think, absurdist political comedy, and that
Speaker 2: drew me to the Second City in Chicago, which was
Speaker 2: political and social satire. And so once I jumped into
Speaker 2: the world of like the Second City comedy, I learned
Speaker 2: about like Nichols and May who were doing such great
Speaker 2: political satire in the fifties, and then Stephen Colbert, Steve Carell,
Speaker 2: Tina Fey, the people at Second City, Like even if
Speaker 2: they were overtly political at the time, like the stuff,
Speaker 2: the work they were doing in Chicago, that they would
Speaker 2: eventually go on and do it SNL in other places
Speaker 2: like was all very much commentary on the world around them,
Speaker 2: even if that's just social dynamics. Extending that into political
Speaker 2: stuff like that to me was like, oh, the the
Speaker 2: real marrow of this comedy thing is like use these
Speaker 2: tools of absurdism and wit but go at like articulating
Speaker 2: these these cultural trends. And so that was sort of
Speaker 2: always my world. And then John comes in and Colbert
Speaker 2: comes in, and I can see like them articulating a
Speaker 2: worldview and speaking to what people were talking about. And
Speaker 2: so I became more more a political comedian as I
Speaker 2: became older, and those people also started to flourish in
Speaker 2: ways that they hadn't when I was coming up.
Speaker 1: What is I mean obviously would would be remissive speaking
Speaker 1: of coming up, we didn't bring up the Cobert issue.
Speaker 1: I mean that that kind of took people. I mean,
Speaker 1: it took me by complete surprise, also pissed me off.
Speaker 1: I think it pissed a lot of people off. And
Speaker 1: back to sort of how we started this, I mean,
Speaker 1: it was alarming beyond words. I mean, because back to
Speaker 1: truth and trust. I mean, is are they letting this
Speaker 1: guy go and eliminating this show because it costs too much?
Speaker 1: Or is it about something else? And I know it
Speaker 1: puts you in a tough spot, so mindful of that. Man,
Speaker 1: I don't mean to put you on the spot just
Speaker 1: to Comedy Central, et cetera. But I mean, how did
Speaker 1: I'm curious, what when you first heard that news? Where
Speaker 1: were you? How did you take it? And what went
Speaker 1: through your mind? What was sort of the initial reaction
Speaker 1: I was.
Speaker 2: I was. I was hosting the Daily Show that week,
Speaker 2: and we had a we had a big week, and
Speaker 2: we had a great week of shows. And as I
Speaker 2: walked off on our last show on Thursday, I got
Speaker 2: the news that the Colbert was Show was ending. And
Speaker 2: I have a lot of friends who work over there,
Speaker 2: and Steven is a family member of the Daily Show.
Speaker 2: You know, he's he lives in Lore over there and
Speaker 2: was a Daily Show member for so long, and so
Speaker 2: we love Steven and yeah, immediately it's a gut punch.
Speaker 2: I think like his voice I think is important right
Speaker 2: now at a time where it feels like a lot
Speaker 2: of people are stepping down when they could be stepping up.
Speaker 2: Stephen Colbert is somebody who's stepping up, and to see
Speaker 2: an organization push back on that is alarming. I know
Speaker 2: there are economic things that play here, I think where
Speaker 2: I get frustrated beyond just not being able to see
Speaker 2: Steven Colbert, and quite frankly, I think Stephen Colbert is
Speaker 2: going to find ways to be part of the conversation.
Speaker 2: So I think he's going to be He's going to
Speaker 2: be around. I know that for sure. I think there
Speaker 2: became such a conversation around the economics of Late Night
Speaker 2: and the end of Late and I think you can
Speaker 2: make arguments about like whether or not the advertising structure
Speaker 2: on linear television works at eleven and thirty slot. Okay,
Speaker 2: have that business conversation, but I think the effect of
Speaker 2: Late Night of a John Stewart, of a Stephen Colbert,
Speaker 2: of a Jimmy Kimmel, like people are interacting with this
Speaker 2: content and this information more than they ever have before.
Speaker 2: I know, with the daily Show, our reach online and
Speaker 2: all the different spaces. I do stuff at the desk,
Speaker 2: I do stuff at the field, I do specials that
Speaker 2: go out across the globe. They're part of the conversation.
Speaker 2: You have the President of the United States who's pissed
Speaker 2: at the things that are being said on late night. Like,
Speaker 2: to me, that is not a reflection of an industry
Speaker 2: that has no connection. In fact, to feel like a
Speaker 2: reflection of an industry that is part of the larger conversation.
Speaker 2: And quite frankly, like a couple of days later, Steven's
Speaker 2: first show back like John Colbert. John went on Colbert,
Speaker 2: so did Oliver, Seth Myers, Jimmy Fallon. What gave me
Speaker 2: a sense of pride in this this space where we
Speaker 2: are seeing institutions and people who have a microphone, we're
Speaker 2: seeing them.
Speaker 3: Take a step back.
Speaker 2: I was really proud to see these comedians who are
Speaker 2: in different networks, different places and have different priorities like
Speaker 2: coming together and standing behind Stephen, speaking truth to power
Speaker 2: and supporting a guy that they think should have a voice,
Speaker 2: wherever that may be. And so that that to me
Speaker 2: was like a little sense of pride. And also I
Speaker 2: really wish they asked me to be a part of that,
Speaker 2: it would be it would have been nice.
Speaker 3: I'm in town.
Speaker 2: It could have written a small part like I you know,
Speaker 2: there's there's an it could have been slightly better. But
Speaker 2: for the most part, I I it made me feel
Speaker 2: a sense of pride for like the late night comedians
Speaker 2: who are who are not going quietly into the night.
Speaker 1: It's interesting just you know, sort of breaking down the
Speaker 1: reach that it punches way above its weight outside that
Speaker 1: time slot, and how and all of these mediums and
Speaker 1: all this capacity to communicate and obviously that's you know,
Speaker 1: a big part of what you've been doing. And you're
Speaker 1: not just doing the correspondent work. You're not just hosting
Speaker 1: on nights the Daily Show, but you obviously branched out
Speaker 1: as well. You do these deeper sort of specials, but
Speaker 1: you're also doing a bunch of podcasts as well. Is
Speaker 1: this I mean at the end of the day, is
Speaker 1: I mean? No, it seems to me even seen it
Speaker 1: on MSNBC. Everybody it's on MSNBC seems to have a podcast.
Speaker 1: Sean Hannity's always had his radio shows for years and
Speaker 1: years and years. I mean, the multifacet nature, No longer
Speaker 1: linear as you say, what what's what's that landscape look
Speaker 1: like today and what do you sort of where do
Speaker 1: you anticipate that going.
Speaker 3: I mean it's wild.
Speaker 2: I mean you're the governor of a state right now
Speaker 2: and you're we're talking on your podcast.
Speaker 1: Yeah enough a late night you know hosts that otherwise
Speaker 1: it would have to go on your damn show to
Speaker 1: have a conversation five. I mean everything about.
Speaker 2: It, right this is this, This landscape is so strange.
Speaker 2: You're like, oh, I guess I also have to have
Speaker 2: a podcast. This is yeah, this is wow. I do
Speaker 2: think from like an entertainment standpoint, you have to be
Speaker 2: able to connect to people where they are, and so
Speaker 2: like late night is a great space for that. You know.
Speaker 2: What I'm proud of with the Daily Show is like
Speaker 2: we have evolved and we've always been able to like
Speaker 2: I can go into the field and doing those pieces
Speaker 2: connect with people in a different way, and there's a
Speaker 2: curiosity with people in their heads about like what do
Speaker 2: actually people think out in the middle of America. And
Speaker 2: a lot of this content is made on the coasts.
Speaker 2: And so for me to be able to go to
Speaker 2: you know, Florida, to Pennsylvania, wherever and talk to somebody
Speaker 2: is compelling in a way that isn't seen on other
Speaker 2: other venues.
Speaker 3: And then you have podcasts, and then you have.
Speaker 2: Other spaces that that really are the way people are
Speaker 2: starting to get their information and have these conversations. So
Speaker 2: it is important for comedians, for politicians to meet people
Speaker 2: where they are to expand with those kind of conversations.
Speaker 2: Arm Quite frankly, what I like about the podcast medium
Speaker 2: is that it is it's elongated. I'm everything else is shortening,
Speaker 2: and the attention span is shortening, and the context shortens,
Speaker 2: and that's where I get worried in the comedy space,
Speaker 2: I'm sure as well in the political space, like once
Speaker 2: you shorten everything to just that clip, you lose the context,
Speaker 2: You lose the ability to have any kind of depth
Speaker 2: of conversation or awareness of an issue that has more
Speaker 2: than than one easy digestible side. And in a format
Speaker 2: like a podcast, at least i'm i'm, i'm, i'm. I'm
Speaker 2: happy to hear that people listen to things for an
Speaker 2: hour or two hours and digest that and and wherever
Speaker 2: that space exists, I think you have to kind of
Speaker 2: go to that and have those conversations.
Speaker 1: You speaking of go to, I mean you and in
Speaker 1: your go to has been I mean, your brand, it's
Speaker 1: just next level. And I was, man, I realized, I
Speaker 1: think I watched every damn clip before when I was
Speaker 1: sort of anticipation of meeting with you for this.
Speaker 2: You've got shit to governor. You know, I'm aren't you
Speaker 2: trying to Aren't you trying to double Jerrymander California? Right now?
Speaker 1: We're gonna get so we're gonna get to what we're doing.
Speaker 1: In reaction too, I.
Speaker 2: Was gonna say, like, instead of my videos, you could
Speaker 2: take more Republican votes away?
Speaker 3: Is that what's happening?
Speaker 1: What's going on about? Hey? We all have capacity to
Speaker 1: do more and be more, and that's the spirit of
Speaker 1: what you've done. You've read how many damn Trump rallies
Speaker 1: have you been to? Have you counted?
Speaker 2: I've lost count it has been. I mean I started
Speaker 2: doing in twenty fifteen.
Speaker 1: What was it? What was the and I We'll get
Speaker 1: to the count in a second, But what was the
Speaker 1: inspiration for that first Trump rally?
Speaker 2: Oh? I mean I can't it was. I mean I
Speaker 2: think back in the time it was Can you believe it?
Speaker 3: A reality?
Speaker 2: Star is running for president. We should we should get
Speaker 2: out there and talk to people before this goes away.
Speaker 1: Where it goes away.
Speaker 2: You know what was compelling that first rally, what stood
Speaker 2: out to me, like the first which was very early
Speaker 2: in Trump announcing his presidency, the conspiracy of the moment,
Speaker 2: of the Trump moment was the Barack Obama birth certificate,
Speaker 2: which which feels like forever ago, but at that time
Speaker 2: in American history, to walk up with the camera and
Speaker 2: a microphone and ask somebody if you think Barack Obama
Speaker 2: was born in America, nine out of ten people would say,
Speaker 2: of course he was born in America, even if they
Speaker 2: didn't believe that Barack Obama was born in America culturally.
Speaker 2: That's not only insensitive, it is racist. And you're not
Speaker 2: going to say that in front of a camera, in
Speaker 2: front of a microphone. It'd be acidine to think that
Speaker 2: I would get somebody on camera saying no, Barack Obama
Speaker 2: is a secret Muslim. Like that was the beginning, and
Speaker 2: I remember talking to people about that and nobody would
Speaker 2: mention that. A few months later, that number became at
Speaker 2: a at a MAGA rally, it became six seven and
Speaker 2: ten people were unafraid to call Barack Obama a secret musclm.
Speaker 2: You could just I was like, oh my god, this
Speaker 2: was months ago. This seemed like it was an impossibility.
Speaker 2: Not that racism doesn't exist in America, but at least
Speaker 2: that there was an understanding to hide your racism or
Speaker 2: an understanding that like that was a that was an unpopular,
Speaker 2: untoward opinion that maybe you hadn't vetted enough in your
Speaker 2: mind to actually articulate in front of a stranger. And
Speaker 2: yet the power of that man saying that over and
Speaker 2: over and over again, it just moved that line in
Speaker 2: such a dramatic and swift fashion that I that I've
Speaker 2: seen happen over and over and over again to this day.
Speaker 1: So that was And I want to get to the
Speaker 1: communication because it's interesting. I mean, use the frame over
Speaker 1: and over and over and again, this notion of repetition
Speaker 1: in terms of communication frame. But twenty fifteen sort of
Speaker 1: launched that the Birther issue, which created a lot of
Speaker 1: your content and what ninety hundred rallies later.
Speaker 2: Probably about that, Yeah, I think that's about ninety hundred. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, what is what's been the through line for you?
Speaker 1: What's been the most sort of, you know, as you
Speaker 1: sort of reflect on the journey of all these interactions,
Speaker 1: and anybody that hasn't taken the time to see these
Speaker 1: clips you really should because you know, I use the
Speaker 1: word empathy, your ability to engage people and create that
Speaker 1: space of trust. And they may be embarrassed at the
Speaker 1: end of the day, they may not even be embarrassed
Speaker 1: because they're situationally unaware of the contradictions, which are fascinating.
Speaker 1: And I don't know how much editing you do we
Speaker 1: can get to that in a moment, or how many
Speaker 1: things we don't see, of course, how many it tries,
Speaker 1: the complete disasters and you just go with the one.
Speaker 1: But it seems to me a lot of really good
Speaker 1: people and it breaks my heart. I feel more empathetic
Speaker 1: watching your interactions. Feel I feel really badly for people
Speaker 1: that they've been so lied to, so misled, and they
Speaker 1: feel they feel You can feel the emotion, the anger
Speaker 1: of being contradicted or themselves contradicting themselves and when the
Speaker 1: facts are presented and the facts that can't be because
Speaker 1: my beliefs are so strong. Anyway, what has been your
Speaker 1: sort of group? But what have you learned on this
Speaker 1: over the course of least many many years, these rallies.
Speaker 2: Well, I think you are you are spot on in that,
Speaker 2: you know when a lot of people, often from the left,
Speaker 2: come up and ask about MAGA rallies, and many people
Speaker 2: from that never went to a Trump rally, and I
Speaker 2: highly recommend it. What I think is so enjoyable and
Speaker 2: empathetic about those events is like they're like a parade
Speaker 2: coming into town. And when I talk like, even if
Speaker 2: you aren't on board, you go to the parade coming
Speaker 2: into town, and for the most part, a giant group
Speaker 2: of those folks are there because they want community and
Speaker 2: they get it. They get it immediately, and they want meaning.
Speaker 2: You have the most powerful person on the freaking planet
Speaker 2: who's like this, you can be a patriot, you can
Speaker 2: do this thing stand up. That is such a it's
Speaker 2: such a it's an amazing promise to give to people.
Speaker 2: And the desire to have meaning and community in your
Speaker 2: life is such a universal desire. It's something that I'm
Speaker 2: constantly searching for and I feel it there and I
Speaker 2: like it. I yearned for it. I'm a Michigan football
Speaker 2: fan and I go to the Big House and I
Speaker 2: see the exact same thing happen like it's what we do.
Speaker 2: We buy a hat. There's a reason you put on
Speaker 2: a hat. I put on a Michigan hat. They put
Speaker 2: on a Maga hat, that red hat. Because as soon
Speaker 2: as you put that on, you feel like you're part
Speaker 2: of this team. You see ten thousand other people who
Speaker 2: share something in common with you, and that I see
Speaker 2: and that I understand, and I yearn for more of
Speaker 2: that in my own life. It's the manipulation of that
Speaker 2: these people are vulnerable and open to this and the
Speaker 2: lies and the bs that is fed to these folks.
Speaker 2: I think when I have these conversations with people, more
Speaker 2: often than not, I'm confronting them with information that is
Speaker 2: new to them. They have to articulate their opinion that
Speaker 2: they've shared with their friends over and over again. They
Speaker 2: have to articulate why for the first time in real
Speaker 2: time with me. And I think that's what you start
Speaker 2: to realize. It's like, oh, they haven't stressed tested this idea.
Speaker 2: And the old days, you'd have your friends at the
Speaker 2: bar who don't believe what you believe, and you'd have
Speaker 2: to tell them why you believe that wild thing? What
Speaker 2: facts you have to prove the birtherism lie. But now
Speaker 2: you're your six pals that you see, they're not going
Speaker 2: to press you on it. The Internet that you're on
Speaker 2: is gonna press you on it. The Fox News that
Speaker 2: you're listening to is just reinforcing it. And so when
Speaker 2: you go out into a field and you talk to
Speaker 2: me and I ask you something like that, you assume
Speaker 2: this has already been stress tested and perfect. You haven't
Speaker 2: even thought thought through why you believe it so surely.
Speaker 2: And then when this dumb lanking guy asks you, but
Speaker 2: why over and over again, you start to see those
Speaker 2: those cracks. And for me, that is what is most revelatory.
Speaker 2: Is like you see you see the propaganda and how
Speaker 2: it how it seeps its way into people. You see
Speaker 2: how identity is something that forces people to cling on
Speaker 2: to things even though they may see the cracks in
Speaker 2: the logic. But you also see people haven't haven't thought
Speaker 2: through the logistics of that, They've just trusted. And I
Speaker 2: think that's such a loving, loving attribute for most people
Speaker 2: to have this trust that this person who garnered so
Speaker 2: much fame and attention for his entire career came here
Speaker 2: and told me it was true. So why isn't it.
Speaker 2: I think that's on the left. You can kind of forget.
Speaker 2: It's like what happened on January six, like is crazy
Speaker 2: and I was there. You were there, but I was there.
Speaker 2: But when like the president tells you to do these things,
Speaker 2: that person is so powerful and to believe in that person,
Speaker 2: like you understand where that comes from. And it's so
Speaker 2: infuriating that he has the power and the ability to
Speaker 2: get those points across. But I think the humanity in
Speaker 2: the MAGA supporters that I find is in just the
Speaker 2: trust and the faith that this community that they've found
Speaker 2: couldn't possibly be steered wrong by somebody who's accrued so
Speaker 2: much power and success.
Speaker 1: What you know, And I want to go back to
Speaker 1: January six, because I don't think people fully appreciate you
Speaker 1: when you say you were there, you were.
Speaker 3: Work there, I was working governor working there.
Speaker 1: Recently. Pardon Jordan Klipper, Yes he is joining us today
Speaker 1: on the podcast. Uh, yes, you were just there. It
Speaker 1: was a peaceful rally.
Speaker 2: Peace it was it was just it was a traditional
Speaker 2: tourist visit.
Speaker 1: It was Yeah. Let me ask you, though, did I
Speaker 1: mean you must have I mean we saw the images
Speaker 1: of your cameraman kind of getting tripped up, this sort
Speaker 1: of intentional effort to become a victim the person that
Speaker 1: that tripped him to say, oh he ran into me,
Speaker 1: to sort of create these conditions through our welling in
Speaker 1: nature of that. But what you must have there was
Speaker 1: I imagine points where you started to realize that this
Speaker 1: thing's getting real, that this is getting a little out
Speaker 1: of control. We need to get the hell out of here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was, I mean, we were We had been
Speaker 2: to the million Maga March a month before, which was
Speaker 2: the Stop the Steal March. Yep uh. They said a
Speaker 2: million that was their numbers, but there was forty thousand
Speaker 2: people there perhaps, And it was tense. And there's been
Speaker 2: a shift in like you know, as contentious as some
Speaker 2: of the interviews I can I have can get for
Speaker 2: the most part, people want to have a conversation. They
Speaker 2: don't get testy. Post that Trump election loss, people were
Speaker 2: testy and they're frustrated in the art, and they were argumentative.
Speaker 2: And we had a few situations where security had to
Speaker 2: step in. And so for January sixth, we sort of
Speaker 2: knew people are going to be angry, and Trump had
Speaker 2: been telling people be there will be wild. When you
Speaker 2: show up, the mall is full of people wearing very
Speaker 2: aggressive T shirts with guns on them, and when you
Speaker 2: talk to people, there was nothing but talk about revolution
Speaker 2: and what have you. So we were very strategic about
Speaker 2: where we wanted to be, and we also quite literally
Speaker 2: knew the game plan for the crowd was going to
Speaker 2: be listen to the Trump speech and then move on
Speaker 2: to the Capitol and stop the vote. So we positioned
Speaker 2: ourselves to be there in the front when the boat
Speaker 2: was taking place, and we watched Proud Boys march by
Speaker 2: us and we saw everything happen. I think from our
Speaker 2: own perspective it was it was intense. We didn't think
Speaker 2: they would get inside. At some point, you're like, we
Speaker 2: think this is coming, so I'm sure there's enough structures
Speaker 2: in the way to stop this from from going as
Speaker 2: far as some people would like it to be. And
Speaker 2: when they broke down those first barriers, what was so
Speaker 2: fascinating was like the mix. You had the Proud Boys
Speaker 2: and the oath keepers, the people.
Speaker 3: Who were dressed for war.
Speaker 2: They were there, they were upfront, and they were they
Speaker 2: pushed through and they were attacking. And then you also
Speaker 2: had this second wave of MAGA supporters who've been pretending
Speaker 2: to be dressed for war for years and dressed like
Speaker 2: tourists in the Capitol, standing on top of barriers like
Speaker 2: echoe movements from war movies to get people up there,
Speaker 2: and like that day to me such it's it's sort
Speaker 2: of like this Trump administration in general. Like it was
Speaker 2: so heartbreaking and sad and absurd at the same time.
Speaker 2: I'm interviewing a man on a segue going up trying
Speaker 2: to overthrow the government, and also people with zip ties.
Speaker 2: I interviewed people who I would later find out brought
Speaker 2: weapons into the Capitol, and you just you there was
Speaker 2: real danger and threat and ludicrous absurdity at the same time.
Speaker 2: And flash bangs started going off, people started breaking inside,
Speaker 2: and we had a security detail with us that was like,
Speaker 2: it's time to go. We don't know what the situation is,
Speaker 2: we can't control it, and we got out of there.
Speaker 2: But it was it was it was heartbreaking and ridiculous
Speaker 2: and and everything all in one and and in so
Speaker 2: many ways predictable. I think that's part of what is
Speaker 2: so got to start infuriating.
Speaker 1: Was it predictable to you that Trump would find his
Speaker 1: way back? I mean at that moment, you must thought this,
Speaker 1: this is over ever and now it's I mean he's toasted.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's this news cycle. You know, it
Speaker 2: eats its own tail so quickly. But watching watching Republican
Speaker 2: Congress folks stand up and talk about January sixth, the
Speaker 2: day after talking Lindsay Graham articulate being done, like go
Speaker 2: back and watch those I did recently, and it was like, wow,
Speaker 2: this certainty, the bipartisan nature of seeing chaos and a
Speaker 2: reality in front of our own eyes and calling it out.
Speaker 2: I mean the most it's the most photographed crime in
Speaker 2: human history. If we as Americans can't watch that and
Speaker 2: say we don't support this, this is the line. And
Speaker 2: it felt like there was a moment where that was
Speaker 2: the narrative and that was discussed, and so yes, I
Speaker 2: thought that was the end of the Trump chapter, at
Speaker 2: least in terms of being president. That there this this
Speaker 2: MAGA movement is still looking for a leader and that
Speaker 2: won't die out. I didn't think it would end quite
Speaker 2: that quick, But the fact that it has resurfaced like
Speaker 2: this and he's found his way back into office, I
Speaker 2: don't think I fully saw it coming. Although as I
Speaker 2: started to go back on the trail. The numbers steem lower,
Speaker 2: But it didn't seem like it was impossible for it
Speaker 2: to happen.
Speaker 1: Again, finding that meaning and community once again. But I
Speaker 1: mean you also had to find your way back. I
Speaker 1: think the interesting thing about you is it's one thing
Speaker 1: to go back. During COVID, you got a mask on.
Speaker 1: There's some anonymity. People know you but don't really know you.
Speaker 1: I mean, how in the hell do you show up
Speaker 1: at a Trump rally nowadays? I mean, you're too well known, Sorry,
Speaker 1: my friend. You have security, I mean now that security
Speaker 1: is not just there for a moment like January sixth.
Speaker 1: I mean, and you've got infamous examples of people that
Speaker 1: will see you, call you out, call you fake news,
Speaker 1: the bricksuit man will get to him in a minute,
Speaker 1: among others. There's sort of these infamous interactions that you've
Speaker 1: had over the years. But how is it, I mean,
Speaker 1: how is how is that journey now in terms of
Speaker 1: ricond out or you get to know all these people
Speaker 1: and they love you, like, hey, George, I go to
Speaker 1: see you, buddy.
Speaker 2: I I I have friends that I see at these
Speaker 2: rallies now and I know all of the all the
Speaker 2: T shirt salesmen were pals. We see each other every
Speaker 2: every week. I do have multiple friends who I've talked
Speaker 2: to over the years that it's it's nice to like
Speaker 2: reconnect with and see how their thoughts have changed or
Speaker 2: if they haven't. And it is remarkable, like sometimes people
Speaker 2: will seek out to talk to me, sometimes people will
Speaker 2: say no way. I think the thing that was both
Speaker 2: eye opening and disheartening was I went to Seapack a
Speaker 2: couple of years ago and assumed, assume going to sea Pack,
Speaker 2: that no one would want to talk to me, that
Speaker 2: that's it's sort of ridiculous that we got credentials to
Speaker 2: be there, but we'll see who would want to talk
Speaker 2: to me. I was a rock star at Seapack and
Speaker 2: and it and for two reasons, like there was a
Speaker 2: line of young Republican Congress hopefuls who wanted to talk
Speaker 2: to me.
Speaker 3: We're desperate to talk to me.
Speaker 2: And literally you saw it. I saw Marjorie Taylor Green
Speaker 2: walk through the hall with ten press behind her, and
Speaker 2: you see these young congress folks, these hopefuls from the
Speaker 2: middle of Indiana who are watching her, and they're like,
Speaker 2: oh my god, that's the attention. What do I need
Speaker 2: to do. What do I need to do? Let me
Speaker 2: talk to this guy. Let me talk to this guy.
Speaker 2: And so there was the line literally handing my producer cards,
Speaker 2: please talk to me. I would love to talk to you.
Speaker 2: You're just like, oh, these are And I talked to
Speaker 2: a few people. These are moderate, good, young, nice people
Speaker 2: running for office. But you see their head shifting where
Speaker 2: they're like, oh, that's not the game. The game I
Speaker 2: have to be big. I have to court a fight
Speaker 2: with this guy. I got to own the libs. I
Speaker 2: have to do this. And then secondarily I ran into
Speaker 2: a maga fans at Seapack, specifically like this eighteen or
Speaker 2: nineteen year old boy who is a Trump super fan,
Speaker 2: and he showed me pictured in his home of Trump
Speaker 2: cutouts and posters, pictures with Trump he loved. His whole
Speaker 2: identity was Donald Trumpy. And he sought me out. He
Speaker 2: was like, I want to talk to you to get pictures.
Speaker 2: I asked to point Blake. I was like, you know
Speaker 2: who I am, you know what I want to talk about,
Speaker 2: you know my point of view. Why do you want
Speaker 2: to talk to me? And he's like, you're part of it,
Speaker 2: You're part of the world. You're one of the bad guys,
Speaker 2: get a picture with me, and it's I'm the heel
Speaker 2: like like in the UFC world. These guys they don't
Speaker 2: like me, but I'm the bad guy to them in
Speaker 2: this world, so they want to picture with it. And
Speaker 2: it's a game and it's a performance, so collect all
Speaker 2: the characters try to get their autographs.
Speaker 3: It's it's just a game to be played.
Speaker 1: Any You have no idea how much that resonates with
Speaker 1: me and how much I appreciate that. I mean, have
Speaker 1: so many similar experiences on those lines. It's so what
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I well, let me go back,
Speaker 1: because idea of people are like, what the hell is
Speaker 1: he talking about with this brick suit man. But yes,
Speaker 1: I think it goes to the essence of what you
Speaker 1: just described as well, which is your ability to connect
Speaker 1: with the other side and the challenges that we all
Speaker 1: have connecting with people that we vehemently disagree with in
Speaker 1: terms of world view and points of view. Just you know,
Speaker 1: with so many people's just I don't understand how hot
Speaker 1: what's going on in my Linde. It just makes no sense,
Speaker 1: et cetera. And you had an interesting infamous and I
Speaker 1: don't want to beliebor it because it's it's well chronicle.
Speaker 1: But you know, like this three and a half hour
Speaker 1: conversation with someone that was going after you at one
Speaker 1: of the Trump rallies and the two of you just
Speaker 1: happened to get stuck in an airport I think in
Speaker 1: Green Bay, Wisconsin, my memory serves, and you guys are
Speaker 1: stuck together waiting for a damn plane. Just the lucky
Speaker 1: You know, what are the chances of this? And so
Speaker 1: you had nothing else to do, So he ended up
Speaker 1: spending all that time well, shitting back and forth.
Speaker 2: What happened, Yeah, it's we we got to know each
Speaker 2: other as humans and not as performers in front of
Speaker 2: a medium, and it was it was a remarkable day.
Speaker 2: Like like you said, he spent the entire shoot day
Speaker 2: heckling our camera crew. And he's sort of an infamous
Speaker 2: maga celebrity that Trump brings on stage because he's dressed
Speaker 2: like the border wall. And when I see him at
Speaker 2: the airport, the last thing I wanted to do was
Speaker 2: spend three and a half hours talking and fighting with
Speaker 2: this guy over politics. But it was remarkable in that,
Speaker 2: like I joke that we're away from our mediums. But
Speaker 2: it is true, like our guards were down, Like he's
Speaker 2: he's not performing for a camera and playing a part
Speaker 2: of the bricksuit guy. That doesn't mean that he's not
Speaker 2: He doesn't believe many of the things that he talks about.
Speaker 2: I don't think he's insincere in that, but I think
Speaker 2: he's a larger version of certainty that exists in his
Speaker 2: heart as am I as a person who was in
Speaker 2: front of the camera as well, and with no cameras,
Speaker 2: no microphones. When we got past like is this person
Speaker 2: recording something to try to make the other person look
Speaker 2: bad like, then we just started talking about his certainties
Speaker 2: around Trump. I think what was surprising to me, Like
Speaker 2: he talked about like again is he's in some ways
Speaker 2: the manifestation of like a Trump supporter. But he would
Speaker 2: articulate to me was that he wears the bricksuit because
Speaker 2: he sees it as a meme and memes our attention
Speaker 2: getting and he wants the attention of a camera and
Speaker 2: he wants to articulate that maga vision because he sees
Speaker 2: himself as more articulate in the ways of Trump than
Speaker 2: other people.
Speaker 3: And I don't think he's wrong.
Speaker 2: I think that's.
Speaker 3: Probably a savvy move.
Speaker 2: But as we talked beyond the cameras, like he talked
Speaker 2: about how he didn't think Trump won the last election,
Speaker 2: which is bonkers. Not to believe the big lie if
Speaker 2: you are the big face. They told me he wished
Speaker 2: he'd move on. He had political disagreements with him. He
Speaker 2: had more of a libertarian streak and loved to be
Speaker 2: an online troll. That seemed to be most of his personality,
Speaker 2: and he would be open about that. He loved to
Speaker 2: go on Reddit boards, stir shit up and get people upset.
Speaker 2: That's sort of what he thought was funny and comedic,
Speaker 2: and so like, I got it. It wasn't my thing.
Speaker 2: He was way into history. He was a smart guy.
Speaker 2: This is the thing that I always think about when
Speaker 2: progressive people, when Democrats come up to me and they
Speaker 2: want to say, like, oh, all those crazy people you
Speaker 2: talk to, Like I talk to people who believe crazy things,
Speaker 2: and you need to understand those are separate things and
Speaker 2: bricksuit guy. I don't agree with the things he talks about.
Speaker 2: But the man who has a handlebar mustache and five
Speaker 2: bespoke brick suit that he goes up on stage and
Speaker 2: talks about you'd like to think he's an idiot, and
Speaker 2: he's not. He's smart. He's smart. And we talked. We
Speaker 2: had good conversations. We found if not common ground, like
Speaker 2: we softened on some of the certainties that we had
Speaker 2: around issues that we were less aware of than perhaps
Speaker 2: we would perform in front of a camera. When I
Speaker 2: say this, the moment that sticks with me is like
Speaker 2: we got on the train of the plane, still talking,
Speaker 2: and I was in an exit row and was asked
Speaker 2: if I wanted to took on the responsibilities of being
Speaker 2: in an exit row, and I took to him, and
Speaker 2: I mischievously say, I hope this freaks you the fuck out, man,
Speaker 2: and he laughs, and and in retrospective, like that's it.
Speaker 2: Every conversation I have with so many other people, you
Speaker 2: don't to the point where you're actually laughing together, because
Speaker 2: your identity is at stake, because any challenge to your certainty,
Speaker 2: any challenge to a thing you have said, is seen
Speaker 2: as like an existential attack on who you are. But
Speaker 2: I knew who this guy was. I spent three and
Speaker 2: a half hours with him. We connected on some stuff,
Speaker 2: and so when I poked him, he didn't crumble. Didn't
Speaker 2: just explode into just dust. He laughed, and I laughed back,
Speaker 2: and I'm like, oh, that still exists. That exists in America.
Speaker 2: We're not as polarized as some people would say that
Speaker 2: the conversation pulls us that way, and it looks that way.
Speaker 2: But if you can spend three and a half hours
Speaker 2: with somebody in a Green Bay airport, you're gonna at
Speaker 2: least at least get to the point where you believe
Speaker 2: the same premise of the joke, and that to me
Speaker 2: speaks to not separate realities, but at least a generalized understanding.
Speaker 1: No, well, I thank you for sharing that story. I
Speaker 1: think it's incredibly important. It's what we need to hear
Speaker 1: right now, because I mean, I keep saying a divorce
Speaker 1: is not an option, and at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: we've got to live together across our differences, and it's exhausting.
Speaker 1: I mean, it is this zero sum thinking, this notion.
Speaker 1: You know that you know everybody's just at each other
Speaker 1: twenty four to seven. You feel like you know you're
Speaker 1: waking up and you know people are trying to put
Speaker 1: a crowbar in the spokes of the wheels of your front
Speaker 1: tire and trip you up. And so this notion that we,
Speaker 1: you know, are all better off, We're all better off,
Speaker 1: this notion that we all want to be loved and
Speaker 1: need to be loved is so foundational. But at the
Speaker 1: same time, I imagine for you it's still a struggle in
Speaker 1: terms of changing minds, because I've seen so many clips
Speaker 1: with you where you've presented something, you know, just a
Speaker 1: perfect example, you had a woman who was very upset
Speaker 1: that a notion that a woman I think Kamala Harris
Speaker 1: at the time may have been Hillary, but I think
Speaker 1: it was commona was going to be president because she said,
Speaker 1: as a woman, she says, too many hormones, she's going
Speaker 1: to get us into a war. And your immediate retort is, well,
Speaker 1: haven't all the wars been started by men? And she
Speaker 1: paused and still went on. I mean, you didn't change
Speaker 1: her mind in this notion of changing minds, changing hearts,
Speaker 1: changing behaviors. I imagine that's been a struggle for you
Speaker 1: with all of these interactions.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. I mean, I will say the intention
Speaker 2: of these interactions is not to change. The intention is
Speaker 2: like again, my bias is towards comedy, finding hypocrisy and irony,
Speaker 2: and more often than not, it's like, I'm curious as
Speaker 2: to how far the propaganda has spread and how deep
Speaker 2: it is inside these people's mindsets, and so I don't
Speaker 2: find people's minds being changed being confronted with information, and
Speaker 2: frankly across the board in my personal life as well,
Speaker 2: it's like, oh, this idea that, oh, if I have
Speaker 2: the information and give this person, that mind will get changed.
Speaker 2: I think one of my favorite interactions was I was
Speaker 2: talking to a woman during Trump's first impeachment and she
Speaker 2: was talking about how Trump is innocent and this was
Speaker 2: the time when he was blocking testimony from John Bolton
Speaker 2: amongst other peoples.
Speaker 3: And I said, well, if he.
Speaker 2: Was innocent, he wouldn't be blocking people from testifying. And
Speaker 2: she's like, exactly, he's innocent. He wants everybody to speak,
Speaker 2: he wants everybody to testify. And I was like, well,
Speaker 2: so if he was blocking people, that would be like
Speaker 2: proof of his guilt.
Speaker 3: He was like, of course, of course, but he's not
Speaker 3: doing that.
Speaker 2: I say, he is doing that, and she takes this
Speaker 2: really long beat and she thinks about it, she really
Speaker 2: hears me, and then she goes, I don't care and
Speaker 2: that's I was like, thank you, because more often than not,
Speaker 2: the conversations that I have out there, the politics is
Speaker 2: the pretense, it's the fun, it's the paying that people have.
Speaker 2: This is an identity for so many people, and they
Speaker 2: will jump into the abortion debate and some people believe
Speaker 2: it vehemently, but more often than not, it's just the
Speaker 2: the tools you use to play the identity. And so
Speaker 2: when it comes to like changing people's minds, changing people's
Speaker 2: identity is hard. Once you put on that hat, people
Speaker 2: see you in that hat. And it's not just that
Speaker 2: you can take the hat off, because your whole community
Speaker 2: saw you as the guy with that hat. And that's
Speaker 2: a hard thing. It's beyond just buying it. It's how
Speaker 2: you are perceived. It's how now your families see you.
Speaker 2: It's I think about like families who have now lived
Speaker 2: in this this Trump era.
Speaker 3: For twelve years.
Speaker 2: You've lost friendships, family members based on it. Like, to
Speaker 2: change your mind is a big, big, big ask.
Speaker 3: And so I don't I don't think it. I don't.
Speaker 3: I don't think it happens.
Speaker 2: With just facts, but I do think, Like, to me,
Speaker 2: what I'm always on and on about is this certainty
Speaker 2: that we have that I think is so unbecoming.
Speaker 3: And it is.
Speaker 2: It is. It is a necessary trait in the world
Speaker 2: of social media and online engagement to be the most certain,
Speaker 2: loudest version of yourself. But the only way that I've
Speaker 2: seen any kind of movement and change or like with
Speaker 2: the bricksuit guy, like a moment or a space for that,
Speaker 2: it comes with with uncertainty that I bring to the table,
Speaker 2: and then he can match it. And so for all
Speaker 2: of my well meaning, thoughtful progressive folks who are like,
Speaker 2: if I just get the right information an article to
Speaker 2: give to my cousin, it will be fine. Like I
Speaker 2: don't think it's going to do it, give it a shot.
Speaker 2: But to me, the only stopping I've seen is when
Speaker 2: you enter the conversation with an I don't know or
Speaker 2: something you are uncertain about, which is a scary place.
Speaker 2: The internet doesn't want you to start that way, but
Speaker 2: like that invitation has been the only way to get
Speaker 2: somebody else to at least like like, at least bring
Speaker 2: the barricades down a bit, to let some new light
Speaker 2: in and see.
Speaker 1: I love the words you're using. You talk about meaning,
Speaker 1: You talk about community and the power of identity and
Speaker 1: how you shake that identity but with humility and grace.
Speaker 1: And I think it begs the question hardly the words
Speaker 1: you would use typically with this topic. But the Epstein issue,
Speaker 1: I mean that invites what to you in this whole conversation,
Speaker 1: what does Epstein mean in relationship to everything you just said.
Speaker 2: Well, it's fascinating to watch it play out on the
Speaker 2: right because it does feel like it feels like a
Speaker 2: promise broken right now. It's Epstein and this idea of
Speaker 2: this conspiracy that would come out with something I heard
Speaker 2: on the trail for the last eight years, and and
Speaker 2: I do think to me, like we've we've talked a
Speaker 2: little bit about this in some off camera about like
Speaker 2: about the difficulty of governing. And I think so many people,
Speaker 2: so many people who go to a Trump rally and
Speaker 2: are there are there just for the show and the community.
Speaker 2: I think part of it's because there's a disconnect between
Speaker 2: what they see governing as and what politics is. Like
Speaker 2: I think like they have they feel disconnected from what
Speaker 2: government can do for them, and so therefore they might
Speaker 2: as well have fun with the game of the politics.
Speaker 2: And Trump is like, well, let me just play the
Speaker 2: politics part and when he gets into the governing part
Speaker 2: where I'm curious about right now, I was like, well,
Speaker 2: there's a connection. Now. Now this person actually has the
Speaker 2: power that you have given them. Do you like this big,
Speaker 2: beautiful bill. Do you like your healthcare options right now?
Speaker 2: Do you like what's happening at the border? Do you
Speaker 2: like the information that you're getting or not getting about
Speaker 2: Jeffrey Epstein? But Trump is done a good job of
Speaker 2: living in the chasm between politics and governing, and so
Speaker 2: I do think there is a real disconnect with so
Speaker 2: many people who voted for Trump, not with a true
Speaker 2: idea that they thought he would change things, but that
Speaker 2: he was the most interesting version to be in a
Speaker 2: system that they thought could never change. So I think
Speaker 2: we're in that right now. And the Epstein thing is
Speaker 2: cracks in a bit, because if you really, if you've
Speaker 2: really bought into this conspiratorial mindset which a lot of
Speaker 2: people have, and that these people can deliver this truth
Speaker 2: to you, it's hard not to see the writing that
Speaker 2: is on the wall Ockham's razor is super sharp here
Speaker 2: about why some of this information might be withheld, why
Speaker 2: you're not getting all the things you were promised. And
Speaker 2: I think we're going to see all the shucking and
Speaker 2: driving from the Trump administration trying to get you to
Speaker 2: focus on something else. But it is an inherent lie
Speaker 2: towards the Trump brand that I don't know what the
Speaker 2: long term effects of it will be, but I think
Speaker 2: his success will be in the fact that if he's
Speaker 2: created a populace that is so pessimistic about the effect
Speaker 2: of the government, then he may win out in this.
Speaker 2: But if there's actually some faith left in that these
Speaker 2: people can do good for you, he's gonna have a
Speaker 2: hard time writing that circle.
Speaker 1: Before we close. Or I'm interested and I want to
Speaker 1: connect back to that eighteen nineteen year old guy that
Speaker 1: you know, just his identity, speaking of identity was all
Speaker 1: attached to yeah, to Trump, but also to you in
Speaker 1: some respects that that's all part of this sort of
Speaker 1: dialectic and this game is you describe it and everything's
Speaker 1: everyone's relationship to one another, the good versus the bad,
Speaker 1: you know, the truth all that. What you know if
Speaker 1: you've seen just through your journey, you look at young
Speaker 1: folks and you you know you've done a lot on masculinity.
Speaker 1: You've talked about you know, we're we talk so much
Speaker 1: about telling boys what not to be. We don't talk
Speaker 1: about what they should be. And there's the andrew Tates
Speaker 1: of the world that infamously sort of fill that void.
Speaker 1: And and we've seen that weaponize with trump et cetera.
Speaker 1: And you see that eighteen nineteen year old, you see
Speaker 1: your own son. Where are we in terms of the
Speaker 1: generational shift on all of this, even in the distinction
Speaker 1: you just made around campaigning versus governing and the relationship
Speaker 1: to Epstein in that, but is there? Do you see
Speaker 1: any generational changes underway? Do you see any hope in
Speaker 1: that distinction young versus old, new versus you know what's
Speaker 1: I mean?
Speaker 3: I do.
Speaker 2: I think your podcast with Richard Reeves I thought was great,
Speaker 2: and I think there's a lot of people talking really
Speaker 2: in depth about this crisis of masculinity that's happening right now,
Speaker 2: which I'm seeing echoed in all the places that I
Speaker 2: go to this I did especial recently that was looking
Speaker 2: at sort of the new MAGA movement, and where I
Speaker 2: found hope was sort of in a surprising place. I
Speaker 2: went to a Turning Points event, I went to a
Speaker 2: UFC event, and I think I was in my mind
Speaker 2: I think, especially at like the Turning Points, Texas A
Speaker 2: and m event, I was expecting maybe the most extreme
Speaker 2: of the MAGA movement to be echoed in these eighteen
Speaker 2: year olds. And when I went down down there and
Speaker 2: talked to the students, I think what I was surprised by.
Speaker 2: They were conservative. Most of them also are very very religious.
Speaker 2: But when I talked to them about like, they didn't
Speaker 2: they didn't care about the cultural war stuff. Now it
Speaker 2: doesn't mean Charlie Kirk, who is you know, one hundred
Speaker 2: feet away, I know you've spoke it to as well,
Speaker 2: like he will get on that culture war stuff and
Speaker 2: he wants to talk about that stuff. And it doesn't
Speaker 2: mean that these students won't hear that, I won't glomb
Speaker 2: onto it. But it wasn't top of mind for folks,
Speaker 2: and I naively assumed a cruelty that did not exist
Speaker 2: in the eighteen year olds that I talked to. I
Speaker 2: thought when we talked about deportations that they would chomp
Speaker 2: on the bit. I thought we talked about trans athletes
Speaker 2: or LGBTQ rights, that like a wall would go up
Speaker 2: or cruelty would emerge, And frankly, it didn't happen the
Speaker 2: people I talked to were interested in jobs, They were
Speaker 2: interested in the country, patriotic talking about like defense security,
Speaker 2: but they didn't they didn't care about LGBTQ not They
Speaker 2: didn't care about LGBTQ issues as a way to like
Speaker 2: to fight over or to be upset about. They wanted
Speaker 2: people to have equal rights and protections and and and
Speaker 2: I think it be keep aware to me, I was like,
Speaker 2: I'm projecting a cruelty that exists within this movement that
Speaker 2: I think it does exist. I think the Trump administration
Speaker 2: thrives on the cruelty, uh and and and that as
Speaker 2: a tool to to create obedience. But when I talk
Speaker 2: to the youth, they are looking for attention and also
Speaker 2: meaning and community. And I saw turning points as an
Speaker 2: interesting example of like, oh, they're like, oh, what is
Speaker 2: this thing over here? This thing that's popular online? Oh, online,
Speaker 2: the place that everybody either becomes an influencer or doesn't
Speaker 2: like that. That's the sphere I want to be a
Speaker 2: part of. Let me go pay attention to that. And
Speaker 2: weren't interested in the cruelty of that message, but they
Speaker 2: were interested in the performance of that message. They were
Speaker 2: interested in the popularity of that message. But at their core,
Speaker 2: these were these were nice kids who were still forming
Speaker 2: their own worldview in a in a kind space. And
Speaker 2: so when I think of that younger generation and I think,
Speaker 2: I think there there is a kindness there that is
Speaker 2: not that that that is that is different than the hardened,
Speaker 2: older maga uh generation that we see right now. And
Speaker 2: I and I hope, I hope there's space for them
Speaker 2: to find find what they care about and do good
Speaker 2: in this world and not sort of be manipulated by
Speaker 2: these these older generations who want nothing more than to
Speaker 2: to weaponize these these points of view and these these
Speaker 2: malleable minds.
Speaker 1: And two final questions, I want to I'll go, I
Speaker 1: want to go back as we began on Redistrict for
Speaker 1: different reasons perhaps, and so may think, but I want
Speaker 1: to pick up just what you said. You know, if
Speaker 1: someone's listening to this, they're saying, Okay, we're we're now
Speaker 1: in sort of the megasphere, we're talking about the manosphere.
Speaker 1: We're in that zeigeist but without the situational awareness that
Speaker 1: a lot of this sort of ideological identity politics, the
Speaker 1: sort of notion of community and meaning also finds its
Speaker 1: way on the left as well, uh not denied that.
Speaker 1: What you know in terms of that to the extent
Speaker 1: that does exist and what has to stipulate it does?
Speaker 1: What is the What have you learned about Maga? We
Speaker 1: talked about repetition, We talked about that sense, that broader
Speaker 1: sense of community. What Trump has provided people in that space?
Speaker 1: Any prescription for Democrats, any prescription for my party that's struggling.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, the Wall Street Journal lowest you know.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, there's no doubt you look at
Speaker 1: the polling on the Democratic Party. Some don't like it,
Speaker 1: referred to as toxic, but it's toxic for a lot
Speaker 1: of people. People sort of immediately are moving away from it.
Speaker 1: What's your over under in terms of what we can
Speaker 1: do differently or better? Are there lessons that we can
Speaker 1: learn from the MAGA movement? There, I say, or suggests
Speaker 1: from the experiences you've had in those hundred rallies ninety
Speaker 1: two hundred rallies with humility and grace that I think
Speaker 1: a party that is out of power needs.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean I think there's there's like there's functional things,
Speaker 2: which is like meeting people where they are, and I
Speaker 2: think like literally we joke about this, but it is
Speaker 2: it is podcast the internet, like understand the conversation where
Speaker 2: you need to have those conversations. I think that's like,
Speaker 2: that's that's baseline. But a big part of what I
Speaker 2: see a younger generation connecting to is authenticity. And it
Speaker 2: feels it took me a while to see what was
Speaker 2: authentic about Donald Trump in so many ways, a very
Speaker 2: authentic human being who's constantly projecting things that are untrue.
Speaker 2: But the feeling of Donald Trump is one that I
Speaker 2: think is received as authentic for so many people there.
Speaker 2: He feels like, if not a true teller, somebody who
Speaker 2: says it like it is, who's not beholden two other
Speaker 2: things again, the veracitor, the of that I don't stand for,
Speaker 2: but I do see people like, oh, they don't see
Speaker 2: him as a politician. Where they connect with him is
Speaker 2: on an authentic space. And I do when I hear
Speaker 2: the Democratic Party to talk about you know who is,
Speaker 2: who are the next space is? And how do we
Speaker 2: do this? And I know you're a part of that conversation.
Speaker 2: The aocs are part of the conversation.
Speaker 3: In New York.
Speaker 2: Mamdani is such an interesting part of the conversation, right.
Speaker 3: Now where that on a local level was.
Speaker 2: Really fascinating to watch, Like all the prognosticators said like, oh,
Speaker 2: this isn't how New York works, this is how politics works.
Speaker 2: But then there's this guy who's like, ah, I want
Speaker 2: to talk about stuff that I think is important, which
Speaker 2: is like jobs and people are hurting. Jobs, people are hurting.
Speaker 2: How can we give them something to look forward to?
Speaker 2: And I know how to do that in a way
Speaker 2: that doesn't feel political, it feels authentic, And that broke
Speaker 2: through in a way that I think a lot of
Speaker 2: New Yorkers are like, huh, everybody told us this wouldn't
Speaker 2: break through. I think this next wave of democratic leadership
Speaker 2: and this party needs to needs to one to know people.
Speaker 2: People want action and they want people who authentically want
Speaker 2: to make change. I don't know how, Like I do
Speaker 2: think what the Republican Party has done so well is
Speaker 2: create a party of like pointing at them and they
Speaker 2: are the problems. And I think you're seeing now, like
Speaker 2: what can they solve in GOUM.
Speaker 3: Governing is hard. I don't need to tell you that.
Speaker 2: I understand the difficulties within it all and that how
Speaker 2: slow it is. But I think big action by Democrats
Speaker 2: to really go after those core issues of health and
Speaker 2: of jobs, by somebody who feels like they're talking man
Speaker 2: on man with the Democratic populace. I feel like that's
Speaker 2: where it's going to live. And so much of the
Speaker 2: party I hear talking about like are we too left,
Speaker 2: are we too moderate?
Speaker 3: Are we this way or this way?
Speaker 2: I'm like that gets in the way, Like you need
Speaker 2: to be a person Like right now, all of these kids,
Speaker 2: these younger generations, they are staring at phones with a
Speaker 2: person that they feel connected to, who tells them to
Speaker 2: buy this lipstick, They tell them to vote this way,
Speaker 2: They tell them this is cool or this is not cool,
Speaker 2: and they listen. You need to be an authentic person
Speaker 2: who can communicate. And that's why you can look like
Speaker 2: Bernie Sanders or could look like aot to very different
Speaker 2: people of different generations, but who feel authentic to an audience.
Speaker 2: It's like, I think that mess just has to feel authentic,
Speaker 2: be authentic, and be one of like of change, because
Speaker 2: people feel so scared right now and so nervous right now.
Speaker 2: Like this idea of who has a vision for change
Speaker 2: that I can believe and trust, I think that's what
Speaker 2: people want everybody, and even on the right where cracks
Speaker 2: in the MAGA movement. It's like, tell me that you
Speaker 2: see a way that this can be better and bigger
Speaker 2: and fairer. I think that is a populis message that
Speaker 2: like the Dems can can own.
Speaker 1: I want to end there, but I want to get
Speaker 1: to redistricting because the tactics of that and what Donald
Speaker 1: Trump I mean, he was on CNBC today and he
Speaker 1: was asked about the Texas redistrict and he said that
Speaker 1: he's earned the right to have those five seats. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's analogous to the hour long phone call with the
Speaker 1: Secretary of State in Georgia. Find me eleven thousand, however
Speaker 1: many twelve thousand votes. Now, he says to Greg Abbott,
Speaker 1: the governor of Texas, find me five seats. And he said,
Speaker 1: I won Texas overwhelmingly, so tho are my seats? And
Speaker 1: in order to make everything else possible to have that
Speaker 1: conversation about health care and about affordability, and about being
Speaker 1: able to even introduce yourself as the authentic self when
Speaker 1: we're rigging a system or changing the game mid census
Speaker 1: in this case, that's pretty damn alarming. You were there
Speaker 1: on January sixth. Now this guy realizes in eighteen months
Speaker 1: he may have some oversight with a different majority, the
Speaker 1: Democratic majority in Congress, in the House in particular, and
Speaker 1: so he wants to rewrite the rules. What is your
Speaker 1: sense of that in relationship to everything else? And what
Speaker 1: does it mean to you? Is it about power, dominance
Speaker 1: and aggression? Is it the brand MAGA? Is it? Is it?
Speaker 1: Is it about strength versus weakness? You know sort of
Speaker 1: that framework? Is that? Is that a paradigm that's you
Speaker 1: know that you've observed Democrats, Republicans? What MAGA? What Trump represents?
Speaker 1: What does it redistrictly mean at this moment? Yours from
Speaker 1: your respect?
Speaker 2: I mean, honestly, I think this moment is so fascinating.
Speaker 2: It's I'm you know, I'm I'm honored to get to
Speaker 2: talk to you about it in this this time we
Speaker 2: are in because I'm I'm reading this nude right now.
Speaker 2: It's it's such a such an obvious power grab, and
Speaker 2: it's scary, it's authoritarian, it's it's anti democratic and and
Speaker 2: to me, where I see it in Omaga movement is
Speaker 2: it will be lauded.
Speaker 3: As a success.
Speaker 2: You know, I do think we talk about the cruelty
Speaker 2: that is inherent there. But I think, like so much
Speaker 2: a part of this identity is in making other people
Speaker 2: pay that like to the victor, go the spoils. It's
Speaker 2: it's you know, I'm It's been Trump's brand forever, like
Speaker 2: it's it's capitalism one o one. It's like, I get
Speaker 2: this because I work the hardest, screw you work a
Speaker 2: little bit harder. And so I feel like that is
Speaker 2: like a new framing device for democracy, which I wish
Speaker 2: I I I wish we were able to push back
Speaker 2: against that. And so you have what you guys are
Speaker 2: talking about doing here too, which I will say I have,
Speaker 2: like I don't know how to feel about it. I
Speaker 2: am so scared as to what Trump is doing and
Speaker 2: it is so unfair and so undemocratic and and just
Speaker 2: a powagram. And on one hand, I'm like, I want
Speaker 2: to see I want to see democratic governors and democrats
Speaker 2: fight back, fight fire with fire. I think that is
Speaker 2: what there is a real yearning for. And at the
Speaker 2: same time, I am scared to run into like an
Speaker 2: undemocratic arms race, and so I don't I don't know,
Speaker 2: like even walking into this podcast, I'm like, man, I
Speaker 2: respect that something that you do well as I think
Speaker 2: you step up to the plate with Donald Trump and
Speaker 2: you punch a bully in their chin. And I think
Speaker 2: that is a big part of where the Democratic base
Speaker 2: can find success in this movement. And yet I worry about, like,
Speaker 2: where are the norms that we have to keep in
Speaker 2: place and where are the norms that we have to
Speaker 2: throw out in order to be in a place where
Speaker 2: norms can exist?
Speaker 1: Well said, I mean it's as someone that's supported independent
Speaker 1: redistrict as an elected official. When at first was presented
Speaker 1: to the voters of California, it took me a little
Speaker 1: bit to get on the other side of this. But
Speaker 1: now I'm realizing to your point the existential nature of
Speaker 1: this moment and the other side there are no rules.
Speaker 1: There are assassins in this respect in terms of the
Speaker 1: approach they take to power and to ultimately control. And
Speaker 1: so you know, we're not only going to fight fire
Speaker 1: with fire, We're gonna punch above our weight. California is
Speaker 1: the size of twenty one state populations combined. We have
Speaker 1: an independent redistricting. We have not jerry mandered our state.
Speaker 1: No state has more to give to this contribution of
Speaker 1: the counter offensive than the state of California. So we'll
Speaker 1: neuter what they're doing in Texas, but we'll one up
Speaker 1: that because we'll take some of the more competitive districts
Speaker 1: and they'll be less competitive as a consequence. And your point,
Speaker 1: it's an arms race. I'm not naive about that, but
Speaker 1: it's also you know, we're raced to two point fifty
Speaker 1: next year. Is that found the celebration of the Founding
Speaker 1: Fathers in the vision that the Founding Fathers laid out
Speaker 1: the best of Roman republic, Greek democracy, system of checks
Speaker 1: and balances, the rule of law, popular sovereignty, it's all
Speaker 1: all at risk. And so forgive me for belaboring the point.
Speaker 1: But I think the point you're making is a difficult one.
Speaker 1: Is how you reconcile those two things. You want to
Speaker 1: do the right thing, you want to you know, sort
Speaker 1: of aspire to the you know, the better angels, but
Speaker 1: we also have to be accountable to this moment.
Speaker 3: To be clear, you think we're gonna make it to
Speaker 3: two fifty.
Speaker 1: We're gonna, we have no choice, but we of course
Speaker 1: we're gonna build the hell.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 2: I'm looking at property in Montreal, just trying to get
Speaker 2: a sentence of like, Okay, do you think.
Speaker 1: You give us worry about singularity and AI?
Speaker 2: So you're a get all everything, cover to everything.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we didn't even get to AI, thank god.
Speaker 1: But enough of the anxiety, hey, Jordan, Uh, thank you man.
Speaker 1: This was this was a great not good This was
Speaker 1: a great conversation. Uh it was. And you know what, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, keep doing what you're doing. But also, you know,
Speaker 1: if you need a you need another job. If if
Speaker 1: these sons of bitches figure out a way to cancel
Speaker 1: the Daily Show uh and try to cancel you, you're
Speaker 1: going to be in the political consulting business soon. So
Speaker 1: you're fine, my friend.
Speaker 2: Are you are you offering me one of these Congress seats?
Speaker 2: Is that what you're doing?
Speaker 1: Oh? I know, that's been your dream in life, that's
Speaker 1: been your aspiration. You see a little improv on the
Speaker 1: on the house. Then you get Gnarley what but what's
Speaker 1: her name?
Speaker 2: Mark?
Speaker 1: Marjorie Taylor Green?
Speaker 2: Every day of the week, I'm gonna say, what what
Speaker 2: a what a lovely workplace to walk into.
Speaker 1: Jesus, And we didn't even get to mac Gates to
Speaker 1: be continued.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, Yes, Well, I got plenty of stories,
Speaker 2: so have me on for around two This was this
Speaker 2: was this was truly a delight.
Speaker 1: I appreciate it, I appreciate Thanks so much, man, that
Speaker 1: was great. Thank you Rob.
Speaker 2: Them located at