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Speaker 1: This is Gavin Newsom and this is the Daily Shows.

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Speaker 1: Jordan Klepper. Jordan, welcome, Thank you for being on the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: Jesus. So what I mean we were you know, we

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Speaker 1: were just commenting full disclosure right before you came on

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Speaker 1: the air. Just a lot of stress, a lot of anxiety,

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Speaker 1: a lot of you know, people feeling the more pessimistic.

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Speaker 1: We talk about doom scrolling, but just this notion like

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Speaker 1: feeling like things are way out of control, particularly this week.

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Speaker 1: So many contemporary things to talk about, and then I

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Speaker 1: want to talk about your career and all the extraordinary

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Speaker 1: things you're doing, but we'd be remiss if not talking

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Speaker 1: about this week in the United States, what's going on

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Speaker 1: in Texas and redistricting, what's happening in states like California, Illinois,

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Speaker 1: New York as it relates to that is subject, but

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Speaker 1: particularly on the issue that really struck a chord with

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Speaker 1: a lot of folks, and that's on stats, on labor, stats,

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Speaker 1: on this notion that we can fire the messenger, the

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Speaker 1: issue of truth and trust and feeling like America, as

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Speaker 1: Tom Freeman wrote today, is being deconstructed. I mean, where

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Speaker 1: are you as someone that you know is deeply ameshed

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Speaker 1: in the body politic and crosses over into points of

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Speaker 1: view that are not often shared, and you have a

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Speaker 1: deeper understanding of the world we're living in. Where are

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Speaker 1: you in terms of this you know moment we're living in.

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Speaker 1: Are you pessimistic or more optimist?

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean I'm looking for a big enough rock

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Speaker 2: to hide under. More often than not, it's hard to

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Speaker 2: get caught up in the news cycle. And when I

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Speaker 2: go out there and talk to people as well, not

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Speaker 2: only on the road and talk to people of different

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Speaker 2: political stripes, but I do a lot of stand up

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Speaker 2: and I do a lot of talking with an audience, and.

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Speaker 3: People are scared, and I get that you are not wrong.

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Speaker 2: It is infuriating to turn on the news and hear

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Speaker 2: that suddenly, you know, reporting the stats and numbers can

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Speaker 2: get you fired. It's not a terrible surprise, I will

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Speaker 2: tell you what. I'm out in the field and talking

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Speaker 2: with a lot of MAGA supporters, and numbers come out.

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Speaker 2: Everybody sort of has their own statistician at that point,

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Speaker 2: everybody has their own guide they can reference. And in

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Speaker 2: so many ways, I think this Trump administration feels like

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Speaker 2: a reflection of the Internet itself. And this might be

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Speaker 2: the ludite in me, but it's so easy for us

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Speaker 2: now to go search out the facts that make us

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Speaker 2: feel comfortable and reinforce the worldview that we have. And

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Speaker 2: the conversations I have with people on theline, which is

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Speaker 2: the worst place to have conversations with people, are often

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Speaker 2: footnoted with websites and numbers and data that don't check out,

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Speaker 2: because that's what you do. Now you have a conversation,

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Speaker 2: you find the thing to make you right. And I'd

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Speaker 2: like to have hope in the higher levels that those

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Speaker 2: conversations are based on fact I don't have a lot

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Speaker 2: of that help. And so seeing the firing that took

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Speaker 2: place this week is infuriating. It scares a lot of

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Speaker 2: people in my orbit, but it's not surprising. It feels

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Speaker 2: like an extension of the Internet.

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Speaker 1: So what I mean, what do you do in that instance?

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's interesting when you say it's not surprising.

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Speaker 1: So often I hear that, and that's infuriating as well,

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Speaker 1: because then it's almost a permission slip that it's sort

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Speaker 1: of acceptable because the normal we've allowed a normalization of deviancy,

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Speaker 1: and so nothing then becomes surprising, and then it becomes

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Speaker 1: we're sort of complicit in it all of a sudden

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Speaker 1: sort of manifests uh. And I think that's the great

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Speaker 1: struggle that we're all having, is that we're seeing American reverse.

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Speaker 1: We're seeing you know, we're seeing truth and trust, We're

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Speaker 1: seeing historical facts being rewritten. We're seeing the sort of

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Speaker 1: cultural purge happening, the shock and awe overwhelming us. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and the zig and the zag that is the distractions

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Speaker 1: day in and day out. So how do you I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's I love that you say, sort of manifestation of

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Speaker 1: what's online is becoming offline with Trump. How do you

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Speaker 1: start to navigate that? I mean, is that the work

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Speaker 1: you're doing to sort of distill the essence of that

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Speaker 1: in using comedy as an entry way to have that conversation,

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Speaker 1: or what is your diagnosis beyond that in terms of

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Speaker 1: what you do to address it?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think we're all living under the fire hose

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Speaker 2: of information and news and chaos, and some of that

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Speaker 2: can be argued as strategy from a Trump administration, some

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Speaker 2: I think as an extension of a mindset I do

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Speaker 2: think as reclient made an interesting point recently that was

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Speaker 2: I think a lot of people give the Trump administration

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Speaker 2: credit for their diversions and their tangents, and I think

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Speaker 2: there's credence in something like that. But I think also

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Speaker 2: it's a manifestation of a mindset that he has that

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Speaker 2: is constantly distracted. And he's been given the ability to

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Speaker 2: be distracted and to lose interest in Elon Musk and

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Speaker 2: to jump into something else. And so again it feels

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Speaker 2: like we're living in a world that is a manifestation

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Speaker 2: of his mindset, an internet mindset, a selfish mindset, and

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Speaker 2: there is this fire who's.

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Speaker 3: Fire hose of news that.

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Speaker 2: Is politically advantageous when you want to get your own

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Speaker 2: things across that might not be popular from a comedic standpoint,

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Speaker 2: when we show up at work and we have this

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Speaker 2: fire hose, like, our job is not to solve it.

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Speaker 2: Our job is to find the chaos, see where the

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Speaker 2: bullshit is, try to make some sense of it and

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Speaker 2: some humor of it. I think, at its at its

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Speaker 2: clearest and best, satire can boil down a feeling and

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Speaker 2: a moment into something that's digestible and fast.

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Speaker 3: And so for us we try to.

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Speaker 2: Wave wade through the fire host find what is important

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Speaker 2: and also find what we can stick our pov onto

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Speaker 2: with something that hopefully is funny and connects. But it's

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Speaker 2: a constant conversation that we're having day in and day

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Speaker 2: out as to like, how do you deal with this?

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Speaker 2: And what what is a distraction? Again, we are legislating.

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Speaker 2: Our job is not to fix the solution. Our job

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Speaker 2: is as a media satire to look at it and

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Speaker 2: find the humor within it. But we are constantly having

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Speaker 2: to make game time calls as to like, are we

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Speaker 2: covering what happened in the Oval office? Are we covering

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Speaker 2: what's happening with these ice raids? Where does humors have

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Speaker 2: a place, where is it best utilized? And how do

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Speaker 2: we make that work for us at our audience.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting you say that because you know it's interesting

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Speaker 1: with the Daily Show generally, and you know John Stewart

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Speaker 1: had sort of peak and I remember being ready, and

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Speaker 1: I honestly I'm not. I think I told John this

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Speaker 1: when we sat down we did something on the death

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Speaker 1: penalty a few years ago, and I think I told him,

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Speaker 1: I said, I'm really pissed at you. You walked away

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Speaker 1: from your show with peak influence where folks were tuning

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Speaker 1: in and particularly young folks, but people like me that

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Speaker 1: were washing and everything going on in cable that wanted

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Speaker 1: you to distill the essence using the lens of comedy,

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Speaker 1: but also sort of guide us in a deeper understanding,

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Speaker 1: distill through that wit and witticism and satire where we

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Speaker 1: are and where we need to go. And I remember

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Speaker 1: he retired right when at the beginning of that election, like, no,

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Speaker 1: you don't get to go John, that you don't. You

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Speaker 1: have a responsibility. So I'm interested. You know people, I

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Speaker 1: think you know, particularly you Jordan. We're going to get

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Speaker 1: to you specifically. I mean your your improvisational skills, your

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Speaker 1: capacity and and sort of legendary capacity to go in

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Speaker 1: and to show empathy and compassion humanity to people you

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Speaker 1: disagree with, to go to these Trump rallies, to meet

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Speaker 1: with people they still feel comfort level to you. That

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Speaker 1: attracts folks that are looking for guidance, looking for direction.

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Speaker 1: And I wonder, you know, in a world where you

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Speaker 1: just you're watching the cable networks and it's just a

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Speaker 1: lot of noise, don't you feel And I'm curious if

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Speaker 1: you do, But do you feel that comedy and the

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Speaker 1: work you're doing actually is now more important uh in

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Speaker 1: terms of providing the way uh and and not just

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Speaker 1: distilling a moment of understanding, but also providing a light

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Speaker 1: in some direction.

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Speaker 2: I mean that's well as a as a person in

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Speaker 2: the entertainment industry and an actor, I do have a

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Speaker 2: sense of self importance that does make me think, Yes,

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Speaker 2: I'm more and more important every single day. Cover reduce

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Speaker 2: him every single day. I'm more important to the general

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Speaker 2: politic of it all. Yes, I mean, I will say,

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Speaker 2: like going back to when I connected to The Daily Show,

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Speaker 2: I used to watch it in college. I wasn't interested

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Speaker 2: in politics. I wasn't connected, I wasn't locked in. Quite frankly,

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Speaker 2: I don't know how college students do it today. Like

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Speaker 2: I had the luxury of being naive about the world

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Speaker 2: around me and just focusing on improv comedy and drinking

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Speaker 2: a forty ounce and not throwing up like that was

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Speaker 2: like my journey as a twenty one year old. And

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Speaker 2: now a twenty one year old has to be so

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Speaker 2: connected to the world around them. But I watched John

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Speaker 2: on The Daily Show, and this guy was able to

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Speaker 2: distill ideas quickly. He wasn't the end of information, but

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Speaker 2: he was a conduit to learning more about something, and

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Speaker 2: I trusted him. I didn't think he was bullshitting. I

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Speaker 2: think media has bias on it. Every media has biased

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Speaker 2: on it. I want every person who watches television to

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Speaker 2: understand what bias is there. It doesn't mean there's not

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Speaker 2: great people who are trying to tell you the truth

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Speaker 2: as they know it, but like there's bias in the

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Speaker 2: structures and the institutions and the places that tell us

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Speaker 2: the things that we have. I think what a lot

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Speaker 2: of people get out of the Daily Show. What I

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Speaker 2: got out of the Daily Show was like, I get

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Speaker 2: Jon Stewart.

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Speaker 3: He's a comedian.

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Speaker 2: He's trying to tell us something funny, and I think

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Speaker 2: bullshit is his barometer, and when he sees something that

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Speaker 2: doesn't sit right with him, he goes at it, and

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Speaker 2: so you knew his bias.

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Speaker 3: I think a lot of people.

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Speaker 2: When they watch our stuff, they watch my stuff, they

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Speaker 2: know my bias. I'm not an unbiased journalist trying to

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Speaker 2: go out there and get What I want to do

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Speaker 2: is find something funny, find hypocrisy, find irony.

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Speaker 3: I care about things. I'm progressive in nature.

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Speaker 2: And I do my research when I go out there

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Speaker 2: and I think people can connect to me in no

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Speaker 2: wa that about what I'm doing out in the field,

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Speaker 2: and quite frankly, when I'm doing the man on the

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Speaker 2: street stuff in the field, like I have the luxury

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Speaker 2: of not being a journalist in some ways pretending just

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Speaker 2: to be unbiased in their conversations, I can have a

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Speaker 2: goal and a hypocrisy that I'm trying to put forward.

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Speaker 2: I can be relentless in the ways in which I

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Speaker 2: go after somebody to try to find that hypocrisy there,

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Speaker 2: and hopefully I can be also empathetic within that that

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Speaker 2: that not only gets me something revealing about somebody, but

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Speaker 2: also has some sort of connection. So for me, that's

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Speaker 2: sort of how I see the work that we do there.

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Speaker 2: And you know, the level of import I think that

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Speaker 2: will be on an audience to decide. But where I

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Speaker 2: always get from the satirist that I love, quite frankly,

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Speaker 2: John Stewart, Stephen Colbert, like the people I grew up with,

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Speaker 2: the people I get to work with like, is that

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Speaker 2: you understand they're biased, you understand their tenacity, and because

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Speaker 2: of that they can cut to the quick and my

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Speaker 2: faith quote about humor George Saunders, the author says like

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Speaker 2: humor is what happens when we're told the truth more

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Speaker 2: swiftly and quickly than we're accustomed to. And I think

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Speaker 2: like at it best, like in those moments where you

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Speaker 2: have a fire hose of trump bs, like that quick

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Speaker 2: crystallized joke or revelation, like can articulate through the through the.

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Speaker 1: Chaos, love it? Were you, by the way you look

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Speaker 1: at Robin Williams, George Carlin, I may were there folks

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Speaker 1: in the political frame that you I mean particularly, I

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Speaker 1: mean you mentioned obviously Colbert and will get to that

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Speaker 1: in a moment, and John himself obviously. But when you

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Speaker 1: were growing up, when you were that twenty one year

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Speaker 1: old hanging out in college, it wasn't that. Were you

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Speaker 1: attracted to political comedy? Were you pacted to that sort

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Speaker 1: of wit and witticism, that capacity to distill the essence

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Speaker 1: of a moment I loved?

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Speaker 2: In college, I found Muddy Python, which was political in

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Speaker 2: a different sense, I think, absurdist political comedy, and that

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Speaker 2: drew me to the Second City in Chicago, which was

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Speaker 2: political and social satire. And so once I jumped into

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Speaker 2: the world of like the Second City comedy, I learned

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Speaker 2: about like Nichols and May who were doing such great

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Speaker 2: political satire in the fifties, and then Stephen Colbert, Steve Carell,

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Speaker 2: Tina Fey, the people at Second City, Like even if

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Speaker 2: they were overtly political at the time, like the stuff,

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Speaker 2: the work they were doing in Chicago, that they would

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Speaker 2: eventually go on and do it SNL in other places

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Speaker 2: like was all very much commentary on the world around them,

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Speaker 2: even if that's just social dynamics. Extending that into political

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Speaker 2: stuff like that to me was like, oh, the the

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Speaker 2: real marrow of this comedy thing is like use these

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Speaker 2: tools of absurdism and wit but go at like articulating

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Speaker 2: these these cultural trends. And so that was sort of

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Speaker 2: always my world. And then John comes in and Colbert

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Speaker 2: comes in, and I can see like them articulating a

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Speaker 2: worldview and speaking to what people were talking about. And

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Speaker 2: so I became more more a political comedian as I

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Speaker 2: became older, and those people also started to flourish in

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Speaker 2: ways that they hadn't when I was coming up.

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Speaker 1: What is I mean obviously would would be remissive speaking

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Speaker 1: of coming up, we didn't bring up the Cobert issue.

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Speaker 1: I mean that that kind of took people. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it took me by complete surprise, also pissed me off.

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Speaker 1: I think it pissed a lot of people off. And

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Speaker 1: back to sort of how we started this, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it was alarming beyond words. I mean, because back to

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Speaker 1: truth and trust. I mean, is are they letting this

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Speaker 1: guy go and eliminating this show because it costs too much?

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Speaker 1: Or is it about something else? And I know it

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Speaker 1: puts you in a tough spot, so mindful of that. Man,

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Speaker 1: I don't mean to put you on the spot just

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Speaker 1: to Comedy Central, et cetera. But I mean, how did

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Speaker 1: I'm curious, what when you first heard that news? Where

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Speaker 1: were you? How did you take it? And what went

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Speaker 1: through your mind? What was sort of the initial reaction

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Speaker 1: I was.

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Speaker 2: I was. I was hosting the Daily Show that week,

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Speaker 2: and we had a we had a big week, and

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Speaker 2: we had a great week of shows. And as I

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Speaker 2: walked off on our last show on Thursday, I got

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Speaker 2: the news that the Colbert was Show was ending. And

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Speaker 2: I have a lot of friends who work over there,

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Speaker 2: and Steven is a family member of the Daily Show.

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Speaker 2: You know, he's he lives in Lore over there and

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Speaker 2: was a Daily Show member for so long, and so

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Speaker 2: we love Steven and yeah, immediately it's a gut punch.

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Speaker 2: I think like his voice I think is important right

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Speaker 2: now at a time where it feels like a lot

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Speaker 2: of people are stepping down when they could be stepping up.

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Speaker 2: Stephen Colbert is somebody who's stepping up, and to see

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Speaker 2: an organization push back on that is alarming. I know

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Speaker 2: there are economic things that play here, I think where

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Speaker 2: I get frustrated beyond just not being able to see

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Speaker 2: Steven Colbert, and quite frankly, I think Stephen Colbert is

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Speaker 2: going to find ways to be part of the conversation.

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Speaker 2: So I think he's going to be He's going to

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Speaker 2: be around. I know that for sure. I think there

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Speaker 2: became such a conversation around the economics of Late Night

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Speaker 2: and the end of Late and I think you can

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Speaker 2: make arguments about like whether or not the advertising structure

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Speaker 2: on linear television works at eleven and thirty slot. Okay,

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Speaker 2: have that business conversation, but I think the effect of

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Speaker 2: Late Night of a John Stewart, of a Stephen Colbert,

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Speaker 2: of a Jimmy Kimmel, like people are interacting with this

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Speaker 2: content and this information more than they ever have before.

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Speaker 2: I know, with the daily Show, our reach online and

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Speaker 2: all the different spaces. I do stuff at the desk,

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Speaker 2: I do stuff at the field, I do specials that

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Speaker 2: go out across the globe. They're part of the conversation.

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Speaker 2: You have the President of the United States who's pissed

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Speaker 2: at the things that are being said on late night. Like,

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Speaker 2: to me, that is not a reflection of an industry

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Speaker 2: that has no connection. In fact, to feel like a

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Speaker 2: reflection of an industry that is part of the larger conversation.

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Speaker 2: And quite frankly, like a couple of days later, Steven's

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Speaker 2: first show back like John Colbert. John went on Colbert,

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Speaker 2: so did Oliver, Seth Myers, Jimmy Fallon. What gave me

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Speaker 2: a sense of pride in this this space where we

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Speaker 2: are seeing institutions and people who have a microphone, we're

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Speaker 2: seeing them.

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Speaker 3: Take a step back.

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Speaker 2: I was really proud to see these comedians who are

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Speaker 2: in different networks, different places and have different priorities like

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Speaker 2: coming together and standing behind Stephen, speaking truth to power

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Speaker 2: and supporting a guy that they think should have a voice,

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Speaker 2: wherever that may be. And so that that to me

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Speaker 2: was like a little sense of pride. And also I

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Speaker 2: really wish they asked me to be a part of that,

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Speaker 2: it would be it would have been nice.

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Speaker 3: I'm in town.

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Speaker 2: It could have written a small part like I you know,

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Speaker 2: there's there's an it could have been slightly better. But

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Speaker 2: for the most part, I I it made me feel

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Speaker 2: a sense of pride for like the late night comedians

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Speaker 2: who are who are not going quietly into the night.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting just you know, sort of breaking down the

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Speaker 1: reach that it punches way above its weight outside that

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Speaker 1: time slot, and how and all of these mediums and

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Speaker 1: all this capacity to communicate and obviously that's you know,

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Speaker 1: a big part of what you've been doing. And you're

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Speaker 1: not just doing the correspondent work. You're not just hosting

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Speaker 1: on nights the Daily Show, but you obviously branched out

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Speaker 1: as well. You do these deeper sort of specials, but

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Speaker 1: you're also doing a bunch of podcasts as well. Is

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Speaker 1: this I mean at the end of the day, is

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Speaker 1: I mean? No, it seems to me even seen it

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Speaker 1: on MSNBC. Everybody it's on MSNBC seems to have a podcast.

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Speaker 1: Sean Hannity's always had his radio shows for years and

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Speaker 1: years and years. I mean, the multifacet nature, No longer

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Speaker 1: linear as you say, what what's what's that landscape look

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Speaker 1: like today and what do you sort of where do

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Speaker 1: you anticipate that going.

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Speaker 3: I mean it's wild.

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Speaker 2: I mean you're the governor of a state right now

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Speaker 2: and you're we're talking on your podcast.

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Speaker 1: Yeah enough a late night you know hosts that otherwise

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Speaker 1: it would have to go on your damn show to

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Speaker 1: have a conversation five. I mean everything about.

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Speaker 2: It, right this is this, This landscape is so strange.

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Speaker 2: You're like, oh, I guess I also have to have

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Speaker 2: a podcast. This is yeah, this is wow. I do

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Speaker 2: think from like an entertainment standpoint, you have to be

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Speaker 2: able to connect to people where they are, and so

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Speaker 2: like late night is a great space for that. You know.

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Speaker 2: What I'm proud of with the Daily Show is like

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Speaker 2: we have evolved and we've always been able to like

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Speaker 2: I can go into the field and doing those pieces

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Speaker 2: connect with people in a different way, and there's a

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Speaker 2: curiosity with people in their heads about like what do

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Speaker 2: actually people think out in the middle of America. And

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Speaker 2: a lot of this content is made on the coasts.

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Speaker 2: And so for me to be able to go to

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Speaker 2: you know, Florida, to Pennsylvania, wherever and talk to somebody

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Speaker 2: is compelling in a way that isn't seen on other

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Speaker 2: other venues.

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Speaker 3: And then you have podcasts, and then you have.

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Speaker 2: Other spaces that that really are the way people are

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Speaker 2: starting to get their information and have these conversations. So

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Speaker 2: it is important for comedians, for politicians to meet people

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Speaker 2: where they are to expand with those kind of conversations.

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Speaker 2: Arm Quite frankly, what I like about the podcast medium

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Speaker 2: is that it is it's elongated. I'm everything else is shortening,

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Speaker 2: and the attention span is shortening, and the context shortens,

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Speaker 2: and that's where I get worried in the comedy space,

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Speaker 2: I'm sure as well in the political space, like once

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Speaker 2: you shorten everything to just that clip, you lose the context,

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Speaker 2: You lose the ability to have any kind of depth

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Speaker 2: of conversation or awareness of an issue that has more

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Speaker 2: than than one easy digestible side. And in a format

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Speaker 2: like a podcast, at least i'm i'm, i'm, i'm. I'm

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Speaker 2: happy to hear that people listen to things for an

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Speaker 2: hour or two hours and digest that and and wherever

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Speaker 2: that space exists, I think you have to kind of

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Speaker 2: go to that and have those conversations.

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Speaker 1: You speaking of go to, I mean you and in

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Speaker 1: your go to has been I mean, your brand, it's

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Speaker 1: just next level. And I was, man, I realized, I

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Speaker 1: think I watched every damn clip before when I was

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Speaker 1: sort of anticipation of meeting with you for this.

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Speaker 2: You've got shit to governor. You know, I'm aren't you

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Speaker 2: trying to Aren't you trying to double Jerrymander California? Right now?

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Speaker 1: We're gonna get so we're gonna get to what we're doing.

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Speaker 1: In reaction too, I.

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Speaker 2: Was gonna say, like, instead of my videos, you could

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Speaker 2: take more Republican votes away?

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Speaker 3: Is that what's happening?

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Speaker 1: What's going on about? Hey? We all have capacity to

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Speaker 1: do more and be more, and that's the spirit of

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Speaker 1: what you've done. You've read how many damn Trump rallies

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Speaker 1: have you been to? Have you counted?

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Speaker 2: I've lost count it has been. I mean I started

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Speaker 2: doing in twenty fifteen.

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Speaker 1: What was it? What was the and I We'll get

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Speaker 1: to the count in a second, But what was the

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Speaker 1: inspiration for that first Trump rally?

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Speaker 2: Oh? I mean I can't it was. I mean I

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Speaker 2: think back in the time it was Can you believe it?

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Speaker 3: A reality?

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Speaker 2: Star is running for president. We should we should get

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Speaker 2: out there and talk to people before this goes away.

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Speaker 1: Where it goes away.

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Speaker 2: You know what was compelling that first rally, what stood

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Speaker 2: out to me, like the first which was very early

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Speaker 2: in Trump announcing his presidency, the conspiracy of the moment,

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Speaker 2: of the Trump moment was the Barack Obama birth certificate,

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Speaker 2: which which feels like forever ago, but at that time

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Speaker 2: in American history, to walk up with the camera and

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Speaker 2: a microphone and ask somebody if you think Barack Obama

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Speaker 2: was born in America, nine out of ten people would say,

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Speaker 2: of course he was born in America, even if they

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Speaker 2: didn't believe that Barack Obama was born in America culturally.

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Speaker 2: That's not only insensitive, it is racist. And you're not

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Speaker 2: going to say that in front of a camera, in

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Speaker 2: front of a microphone. It'd be acidine to think that

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Speaker 2: I would get somebody on camera saying no, Barack Obama

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Speaker 2: is a secret Muslim. Like that was the beginning, and

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Speaker 2: I remember talking to people about that and nobody would

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Speaker 2: mention that. A few months later, that number became at

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Speaker 2: a at a MAGA rally, it became six seven and

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Speaker 2: ten people were unafraid to call Barack Obama a secret musclm.

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Speaker 2: You could just I was like, oh my god, this

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Speaker 2: was months ago. This seemed like it was an impossibility.

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Speaker 2: Not that racism doesn't exist in America, but at least

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00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:11,000
Speaker 2: that there was an understanding to hide your racism or

437
00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:14,800
Speaker 2: an understanding that like that was a that was an unpopular,

438
00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:17,640
Speaker 2: untoward opinion that maybe you hadn't vetted enough in your

439
00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:20,399
Speaker 2: mind to actually articulate in front of a stranger. And

440
00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:24,760
Speaker 2: yet the power of that man saying that over and

441
00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,760
Speaker 2: over and over again, it just moved that line in

442
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:30,920
Speaker 2: such a dramatic and swift fashion that I that I've

443
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:35,080
Speaker 2: seen happen over and over and over again to this day.

444
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,040
Speaker 1: So that was And I want to get to the

445
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:40,560
Speaker 1: communication because it's interesting. I mean, use the frame over

446
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:42,959
Speaker 1: and over and over and again, this notion of repetition

447
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:48,200
Speaker 1: in terms of communication frame. But twenty fifteen sort of

448
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:51,720
Speaker 1: launched that the Birther issue, which created a lot of

449
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:55,120
Speaker 1: your content and what ninety hundred rallies later.

450
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,320
Speaker 2: Probably about that, Yeah, I think that's about ninety hundred. Yeah.

451
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,640
Speaker 1: I mean, what is what's been the through line for you?

452
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:04,520
Speaker 1: What's been the most sort of, you know, as you

453
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,840
Speaker 1: sort of reflect on the journey of all these interactions,

454
00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:10,040
Speaker 1: and anybody that hasn't taken the time to see these

455
00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:12,399
Speaker 1: clips you really should because you know, I use the

456
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,560
Speaker 1: word empathy, your ability to engage people and create that

457
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,600
Speaker 1: space of trust. And they may be embarrassed at the

458
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:20,240
Speaker 1: end of the day, they may not even be embarrassed

459
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,879
Speaker 1: because they're situationally unaware of the contradictions, which are fascinating.

460
00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:25,720
Speaker 1: And I don't know how much editing you do we

461
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:27,400
Speaker 1: can get to that in a moment, or how many

462
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,320
Speaker 1: things we don't see, of course, how many it tries,

463
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:34,359
Speaker 1: the complete disasters and you just go with the one.

464
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:37,800
Speaker 1: But it seems to me a lot of really good

465
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:42,199
Speaker 1: people and it breaks my heart. I feel more empathetic

466
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:46,159
Speaker 1: watching your interactions. Feel I feel really badly for people

467
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:50,200
Speaker 1: that they've been so lied to, so misled, and they

468
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,320
Speaker 1: feel they feel You can feel the emotion, the anger

469
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:57,480
Speaker 1: of being contradicted or themselves contradicting themselves and when the

470
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,760
Speaker 1: facts are presented and the facts that can't be because

471
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:03,360
Speaker 1: my beliefs are so strong. Anyway, what has been your

472
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:05,199
Speaker 1: sort of group? But what have you learned on this

473
00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:08,560
Speaker 1: over the course of least many many years, these rallies.

474
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 2: Well, I think you are you are spot on in that,

475
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,520
Speaker 2: you know when a lot of people, often from the left,

476
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,480
Speaker 2: come up and ask about MAGA rallies, and many people

477
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:20,560
Speaker 2: from that never went to a Trump rally, and I

478
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:23,680
Speaker 2: highly recommend it. What I think is so enjoyable and

479
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:27,399
Speaker 2: empathetic about those events is like they're like a parade

480
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,639
Speaker 2: coming into town. And when I talk like, even if

481
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:32,920
Speaker 2: you aren't on board, you go to the parade coming

482
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 2: into town, and for the most part, a giant group

483
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,879
Speaker 2: of those folks are there because they want community and

484
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,600
Speaker 2: they get it. They get it immediately, and they want meaning.

485
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 2: You have the most powerful person on the freaking planet

486
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,440
Speaker 2: who's like this, you can be a patriot, you can

487
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:51,520
Speaker 2: do this thing stand up. That is such a it's

488
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:53,960
Speaker 2: such a it's an amazing promise to give to people.

489
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,520
Speaker 2: And the desire to have meaning and community in your

490
00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 2: life is such a universal desire. It's something that I'm

491
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:04,720
Speaker 2: constantly searching for and I feel it there and I

492
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 2: like it. I yearned for it. I'm a Michigan football

493
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 2: fan and I go to the Big House and I

494
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 2: see the exact same thing happen like it's what we do.

495
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:15,359
Speaker 2: We buy a hat. There's a reason you put on

496
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:17,280
Speaker 2: a hat. I put on a Michigan hat. They put

497
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 2: on a Maga hat, that red hat. Because as soon

498
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 2: as you put that on, you feel like you're part

499
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:23,640
Speaker 2: of this team. You see ten thousand other people who

500
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,800
Speaker 2: share something in common with you, and that I see

501
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 2: and that I understand, and I yearn for more of

502
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:32,920
Speaker 2: that in my own life. It's the manipulation of that

503
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:37,399
Speaker 2: these people are vulnerable and open to this and the

504
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,720
Speaker 2: lies and the bs that is fed to these folks.

505
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 2: I think when I have these conversations with people, more

506
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 2: often than not, I'm confronting them with information that is

507
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 2: new to them. They have to articulate their opinion that

508
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 2: they've shared with their friends over and over again. They

509
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 2: have to articulate why for the first time in real

510
00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 2: time with me. And I think that's what you start

511
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 2: to realize. It's like, oh, they haven't stressed tested this idea.

512
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 2: And the old days, you'd have your friends at the

513
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 2: bar who don't believe what you believe, and you'd have

514
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 2: to tell them why you believe that wild thing? What

515
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 2: facts you have to prove the birtherism lie. But now

516
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 2: you're your six pals that you see, they're not going

517
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:18,199
Speaker 2: to press you on it. The Internet that you're on

518
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:20,199
Speaker 2: is gonna press you on it. The Fox News that

519
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 2: you're listening to is just reinforcing it. And so when

520
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:24,679
Speaker 2: you go out into a field and you talk to

521
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,160
Speaker 2: me and I ask you something like that, you assume

522
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 2: this has already been stress tested and perfect. You haven't

523
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 2: even thought thought through why you believe it so surely.

524
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,399
Speaker 2: And then when this dumb lanking guy asks you, but

525
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 2: why over and over again, you start to see those

526
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,720
Speaker 2: those cracks. And for me, that is what is most revelatory.

527
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 2: Is like you see you see the propaganda and how

528
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 2: it how it seeps its way into people. You see

529
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:56,199
Speaker 2: how identity is something that forces people to cling on

530
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 2: to things even though they may see the cracks in

531
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 2: the logic. But you also see people haven't haven't thought

532
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,359
Speaker 2: through the logistics of that, They've just trusted. And I

533
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:09,879
Speaker 2: think that's such a loving, loving attribute for most people

534
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 2: to have this trust that this person who garnered so

535
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 2: much fame and attention for his entire career came here

536
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 2: and told me it was true. So why isn't it.

537
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,200
Speaker 2: I think that's on the left. You can kind of forget.

538
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 2: It's like what happened on January six, like is crazy

539
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,360
Speaker 2: and I was there. You were there, but I was there.

540
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 2: But when like the president tells you to do these things,

541
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,119
Speaker 2: that person is so powerful and to believe in that person,

542
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:36,679
Speaker 2: like you understand where that comes from. And it's so

543
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,479
Speaker 2: infuriating that he has the power and the ability to

544
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,679
Speaker 2: get those points across. But I think the humanity in

545
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 2: the MAGA supporters that I find is in just the

546
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,920
Speaker 2: trust and the faith that this community that they've found

547
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 2: couldn't possibly be steered wrong by somebody who's accrued so

548
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:55,360
Speaker 2: much power and success.

549
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 1: What you know, And I want to go back to

550
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,359
Speaker 1: January six, because I don't think people fully appreciate you

551
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:03,600
Speaker 1: when you say you were there, you were.

552
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 3: Work there, I was working governor working there.

553
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:12,119
Speaker 1: Recently. Pardon Jordan Klipper, Yes he is joining us today

554
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: on the podcast. Uh, yes, you were just there. It

555
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:17,919
Speaker 1: was a peaceful rally.

556
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,879
Speaker 2: Peace it was it was just it was a traditional

557
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 2: tourist visit.

558
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 1: It was Yeah. Let me ask you, though, did I

559
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 1: mean you must have I mean we saw the images

560
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 1: of your cameraman kind of getting tripped up, this sort

561
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,440
Speaker 1: of intentional effort to become a victim the person that

562
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 1: that tripped him to say, oh he ran into me,

563
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 1: to sort of create these conditions through our welling in

564
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 1: nature of that. But what you must have there was

565
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 1: I imagine points where you started to realize that this

566
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 1: thing's getting real, that this is getting a little out

567
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 1: of control. We need to get the hell out of here.

568
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was, I mean, we were We had been

569
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 2: to the million Maga March a month before, which was

570
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 2: the Stop the Steal March. Yep uh. They said a

571
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 2: million that was their numbers, but there was forty thousand

572
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 2: people there perhaps, And it was tense. And there's been

573
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 2: a shift in like you know, as contentious as some

574
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 2: of the interviews I can I have can get for

575
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 2: the most part, people want to have a conversation. They

576
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 2: don't get testy. Post that Trump election loss, people were

577
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 2: testy and they're frustrated in the art, and they were argumentative.

578
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 2: And we had a few situations where security had to

579
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 2: step in. And so for January sixth, we sort of

580
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 2: knew people are going to be angry, and Trump had

581
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 2: been telling people be there will be wild. When you

582
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 2: show up, the mall is full of people wearing very

583
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 2: aggressive T shirts with guns on them, and when you

584
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 2: talk to people, there was nothing but talk about revolution

585
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 2: and what have you. So we were very strategic about

586
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 2: where we wanted to be, and we also quite literally

587
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 2: knew the game plan for the crowd was going to

588
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 2: be listen to the Trump speech and then move on

589
00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 2: to the Capitol and stop the vote. So we positioned

590
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 2: ourselves to be there in the front when the boat

591
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 2: was taking place, and we watched Proud Boys march by

592
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 2: us and we saw everything happen. I think from our

593
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 2: own perspective it was it was intense. We didn't think

594
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 2: they would get inside. At some point, you're like, we

595
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 2: think this is coming, so I'm sure there's enough structures

596
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 2: in the way to stop this from from going as

597
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 2: far as some people would like it to be. And

598
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 2: when they broke down those first barriers, what was so

599
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 2: fascinating was like the mix. You had the Proud Boys

600
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 2: and the oath keepers, the people.

601
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 3: Who were dressed for war.

602
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 2: They were there, they were upfront, and they were they

603
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 2: pushed through and they were attacking. And then you also

604
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 2: had this second wave of MAGA supporters who've been pretending

605
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 2: to be dressed for war for years and dressed like

606
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 2: tourists in the Capitol, standing on top of barriers like

607
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 2: echoe movements from war movies to get people up there,

608
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:01,719
Speaker 2: and like that day to me such it's it's sort

609
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 2: of like this Trump administration in general. Like it was

610
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 2: so heartbreaking and sad and absurd at the same time.

611
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 2: I'm interviewing a man on a segue going up trying

612
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 2: to overthrow the government, and also people with zip ties.

613
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 2: I interviewed people who I would later find out brought

614
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 2: weapons into the Capitol, and you just you there was

615
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 2: real danger and threat and ludicrous absurdity at the same time.

616
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 2: And flash bangs started going off, people started breaking inside,

617
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 2: and we had a security detail with us that was like,

618
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 2: it's time to go. We don't know what the situation is,

619
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 2: we can't control it, and we got out of there.

620
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 2: But it was it was it was heartbreaking and ridiculous

621
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 2: and and everything all in one and and in so

622
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 2: many ways predictable. I think that's part of what is

623
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 2: so got to start infuriating.

624
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 1: Was it predictable to you that Trump would find his

625
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 1: way back? I mean at that moment, you must thought this,

626
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 1: this is over ever and now it's I mean he's toasted.

627
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's this news cycle. You know, it

628
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 2: eats its own tail so quickly. But watching watching Republican

629
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 2: Congress folks stand up and talk about January sixth, the

630
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:22,960
Speaker 2: day after talking Lindsay Graham articulate being done, like go

631
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 2: back and watch those I did recently, and it was like, wow,

632
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 2: this certainty, the bipartisan nature of seeing chaos and a

633
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 2: reality in front of our own eyes and calling it out.

634
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 2: I mean the most it's the most photographed crime in

635
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 2: human history. If we as Americans can't watch that and

636
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 2: say we don't support this, this is the line. And

637
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 2: it felt like there was a moment where that was

638
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 2: the narrative and that was discussed, and so yes, I

639
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 2: thought that was the end of the Trump chapter, at

640
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 2: least in terms of being president. That there this this

641
00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 2: MAGA movement is still looking for a leader and that

642
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 2: won't die out. I didn't think it would end quite

643
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 2: that quick, But the fact that it has resurfaced like

644
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 2: this and he's found his way back into office, I

645
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 2: don't think I fully saw it coming. Although as I

646
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 2: started to go back on the trail. The numbers steem lower,

647
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 2: But it didn't seem like it was impossible for it

648
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 2: to happen.

649
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 1: Again, finding that meaning and community once again. But I

650
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 1: mean you also had to find your way back. I

651
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 1: think the interesting thing about you is it's one thing

652
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 1: to go back. During COVID, you got a mask on.

653
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 1: There's some anonymity. People know you but don't really know you.

654
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 1: I mean, how in the hell do you show up

655
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 1: at a Trump rally nowadays? I mean, you're too well known, Sorry,

656
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 1: my friend. You have security, I mean now that security

657
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 1: is not just there for a moment like January sixth.

658
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 1: I mean, and you've got infamous examples of people that

659
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 1: will see you, call you out, call you fake news,

660
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 1: the bricksuit man will get to him in a minute,

661
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 1: among others. There's sort of these infamous interactions that you've

662
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 1: had over the years. But how is it, I mean,

663
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 1: how is how is that journey now in terms of

664
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 1: ricond out or you get to know all these people

665
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 1: and they love you, like, hey, George, I go to

666
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 1: see you, buddy.

667
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 2: I I I have friends that I see at these

668
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 2: rallies now and I know all of the all the

669
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 2: T shirt salesmen were pals. We see each other every

670
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,839
Speaker 2: every week. I do have multiple friends who I've talked

671
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 2: to over the years that it's it's nice to like

672
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 2: reconnect with and see how their thoughts have changed or

673
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:23,840
Speaker 2: if they haven't. And it is remarkable, like sometimes people

674
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 2: will seek out to talk to me, sometimes people will

675
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:28,840
Speaker 2: say no way. I think the thing that was both

676
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 2: eye opening and disheartening was I went to Seapack a

677
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 2: couple of years ago and assumed, assume going to sea Pack,

678
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 2: that no one would want to talk to me, that

679
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 2: that's it's sort of ridiculous that we got credentials to

680
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:44,719
Speaker 2: be there, but we'll see who would want to talk

681
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 2: to me. I was a rock star at Seapack and

682
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 2: and it and for two reasons, like there was a

683
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:57,279
Speaker 2: line of young Republican Congress hopefuls who wanted to talk

684
00:34:57,320 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 2: to me.

685
00:34:58,280 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 3: We're desperate to talk to me.

686
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 2: And literally you saw it. I saw Marjorie Taylor Green

687
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 2: walk through the hall with ten press behind her, and

688
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 2: you see these young congress folks, these hopefuls from the

689
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 2: middle of Indiana who are watching her, and they're like,

690
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:13,960
Speaker 2: oh my god, that's the attention. What do I need

691
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:15,400
Speaker 2: to do. What do I need to do? Let me

692
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 2: talk to this guy. Let me talk to this guy.

693
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:21,799
Speaker 2: And so there was the line literally handing my producer cards,

694
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,239
Speaker 2: please talk to me. I would love to talk to you.

695
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 2: You're just like, oh, these are And I talked to

696
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 2: a few people. These are moderate, good, young, nice people

697
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 2: running for office. But you see their head shifting where

698
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 2: they're like, oh, that's not the game. The game I

699
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 2: have to be big. I have to court a fight

700
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 2: with this guy. I got to own the libs. I

701
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:42,839
Speaker 2: have to do this. And then secondarily I ran into

702
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 2: a maga fans at Seapack, specifically like this eighteen or

703
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:49,839
Speaker 2: nineteen year old boy who is a Trump super fan,

704
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 2: and he showed me pictured in his home of Trump

705
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:56,879
Speaker 2: cutouts and posters, pictures with Trump he loved. His whole

706
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 2: identity was Donald Trumpy. And he sought me out. He

707
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:00,760
Speaker 2: was like, I want to talk to you to get pictures.

708
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:02,799
Speaker 2: I asked to point Blake. I was like, you know

709
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 2: who I am, you know what I want to talk about,

710
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:08,279
Speaker 2: you know my point of view. Why do you want

711
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:10,759
Speaker 2: to talk to me? And he's like, you're part of it,

712
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 2: You're part of the world. You're one of the bad guys,

713
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:15,760
Speaker 2: get a picture with me, and it's I'm the heel

714
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,959
Speaker 2: like like in the UFC world. These guys they don't

715
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 2: like me, but I'm the bad guy to them in

716
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 2: this world, so they want to picture with it. And

717
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 2: it's a game and it's a performance, so collect all

718
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 2: the characters try to get their autographs.

719
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 3: It's it's just a game to be played.

720
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 1: Any You have no idea how much that resonates with

721
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 1: me and how much I appreciate that. I mean, have

722
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:42,319
Speaker 1: so many similar experiences on those lines. It's so what

723
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I well, let me go back,

724
00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:46,800
Speaker 1: because idea of people are like, what the hell is

725
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:48,879
Speaker 1: he talking about with this brick suit man. But yes,

726
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 1: I think it goes to the essence of what you

727
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,400
Speaker 1: just described as well, which is your ability to connect

728
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 1: with the other side and the challenges that we all

729
00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,400
Speaker 1: have connecting with people that we vehemently disagree with in

730
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:01,719
Speaker 1: terms of world view and points of view. Just you know,

731
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 1: with so many people's just I don't understand how hot

732
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 1: what's going on in my Linde. It just makes no sense,

733
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 1: et cetera. And you had an interesting infamous and I

734
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:13,320
Speaker 1: don't want to beliebor it because it's it's well chronicle.

735
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 1: But you know, like this three and a half hour

736
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 1: conversation with someone that was going after you at one

737
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 1: of the Trump rallies and the two of you just

738
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 1: happened to get stuck in an airport I think in

739
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 1: Green Bay, Wisconsin, my memory serves, and you guys are

740
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:29,280
Speaker 1: stuck together waiting for a damn plane. Just the lucky

741
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:31,239
Speaker 1: You know, what are the chances of this? And so

742
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 1: you had nothing else to do, So he ended up

743
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 1: spending all that time well, shitting back and forth.

744
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 2: What happened, Yeah, it's we we got to know each

745
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 2: other as humans and not as performers in front of

746
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:48,319
Speaker 2: a medium, and it was it was a remarkable day.

747
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:52,799
Speaker 2: Like like you said, he spent the entire shoot day

748
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:56,319
Speaker 2: heckling our camera crew. And he's sort of an infamous

749
00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,239
Speaker 2: maga celebrity that Trump brings on stage because he's dressed

750
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:01,719
Speaker 2: like the border wall. And when I see him at

751
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 2: the airport, the last thing I wanted to do was

752
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,759
Speaker 2: spend three and a half hours talking and fighting with

753
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:10,799
Speaker 2: this guy over politics. But it was remarkable in that,

754
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:14,360
Speaker 2: like I joke that we're away from our mediums. But

755
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 2: it is true, like our guards were down, Like he's

756
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 2: he's not performing for a camera and playing a part

757
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 2: of the bricksuit guy. That doesn't mean that he's not

758
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 2: He doesn't believe many of the things that he talks about.

759
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:27,680
Speaker 2: I don't think he's insincere in that, but I think

760
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 2: he's a larger version of certainty that exists in his

761
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 2: heart as am I as a person who was in

762
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 2: front of the camera as well, and with no cameras,

763
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 2: no microphones. When we got past like is this person

764
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:42,879
Speaker 2: recording something to try to make the other person look

765
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 2: bad like, then we just started talking about his certainties

766
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 2: around Trump. I think what was surprising to me, Like

767
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:53,239
Speaker 2: he talked about like again is he's in some ways

768
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 2: the manifestation of like a Trump supporter. But he would

769
00:38:56,600 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 2: articulate to me was that he wears the bricksuit because

770
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 2: he sees it as a meme and memes our attention

771
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 2: getting and he wants the attention of a camera and

772
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:07,919
Speaker 2: he wants to articulate that maga vision because he sees

773
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:10,880
Speaker 2: himself as more articulate in the ways of Trump than

774
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:11,400
Speaker 2: other people.

775
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:12,439
Speaker 3: And I don't think he's wrong.

776
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:13,319
Speaker 2: I think that's.

777
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 3: Probably a savvy move.

778
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:19,279
Speaker 2: But as we talked beyond the cameras, like he talked

779
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:21,320
Speaker 2: about how he didn't think Trump won the last election,

780
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:24,120
Speaker 2: which is bonkers. Not to believe the big lie if

781
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:27,239
Speaker 2: you are the big face. They told me he wished

782
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 2: he'd move on. He had political disagreements with him. He

783
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:32,360
Speaker 2: had more of a libertarian streak and loved to be

784
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 2: an online troll. That seemed to be most of his personality,

785
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:37,239
Speaker 2: and he would be open about that. He loved to

786
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 2: go on Reddit boards, stir shit up and get people upset.

787
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 2: That's sort of what he thought was funny and comedic,

788
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:46,759
Speaker 2: and so like, I got it. It wasn't my thing.

789
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 2: He was way into history. He was a smart guy.

790
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:51,160
Speaker 2: This is the thing that I always think about when

791
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:53,799
Speaker 2: progressive people, when Democrats come up to me and they

792
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 2: want to say, like, oh, all those crazy people you

793
00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:59,400
Speaker 2: talk to, Like I talk to people who believe crazy things,

794
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:02,840
Speaker 2: and you need to understand those are separate things and

795
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 2: bricksuit guy. I don't agree with the things he talks about.

796
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 2: But the man who has a handlebar mustache and five

797
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 2: bespoke brick suit that he goes up on stage and

798
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 2: talks about you'd like to think he's an idiot, and

799
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:19,000
Speaker 2: he's not. He's smart. He's smart. And we talked. We

800
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:23,359
Speaker 2: had good conversations. We found if not common ground, like

801
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 2: we softened on some of the certainties that we had

802
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:28,720
Speaker 2: around issues that we were less aware of than perhaps

803
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 2: we would perform in front of a camera. When I

804
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:33,400
Speaker 2: say this, the moment that sticks with me is like

805
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:36,280
Speaker 2: we got on the train of the plane, still talking,

806
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:39,840
Speaker 2: and I was in an exit row and was asked

807
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:42,799
Speaker 2: if I wanted to took on the responsibilities of being

808
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:44,839
Speaker 2: in an exit row, and I took to him, and

809
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 2: I mischievously say, I hope this freaks you the fuck out, man,

810
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 2: and he laughs, and and in retrospective, like that's it.

811
00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 2: Every conversation I have with so many other people, you

812
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:02,240
Speaker 2: don't to the point where you're actually laughing together, because

813
00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 2: your identity is at stake, because any challenge to your certainty,

814
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 2: any challenge to a thing you have said, is seen

815
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:11,799
Speaker 2: as like an existential attack on who you are. But

816
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 2: I knew who this guy was. I spent three and

817
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:17,360
Speaker 2: a half hours with him. We connected on some stuff,

818
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:21,480
Speaker 2: and so when I poked him, he didn't crumble. Didn't

819
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:26,239
Speaker 2: just explode into just dust. He laughed, and I laughed back,

820
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 2: and I'm like, oh, that still exists. That exists in America.

821
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:33,440
Speaker 2: We're not as polarized as some people would say that

822
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:35,879
Speaker 2: the conversation pulls us that way, and it looks that way.

823
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 2: But if you can spend three and a half hours

824
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:40,839
Speaker 2: with somebody in a Green Bay airport, you're gonna at

825
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 2: least at least get to the point where you believe

826
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:46,440
Speaker 2: the same premise of the joke, and that to me

827
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:50,920
Speaker 2: speaks to not separate realities, but at least a generalized understanding.

828
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 1: No, well, I thank you for sharing that story. I

829
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:56,959
Speaker 1: think it's incredibly important. It's what we need to hear

830
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:01,040
Speaker 1: right now, because I mean, I keep saying a divorce

831
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:03,399
Speaker 1: is not an option, and at the end of the day,

832
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:06,799
Speaker 1: we've got to live together across our differences, and it's exhausting.

833
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 1: I mean, it is this zero sum thinking, this notion.

834
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 1: You know that you know everybody's just at each other

835
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:15,319
Speaker 1: twenty four to seven. You feel like you know you're

836
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:17,920
Speaker 1: waking up and you know people are trying to put

837
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:20,120
Speaker 1: a crowbar in the spokes of the wheels of your front

838
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:22,880
Speaker 1: tire and trip you up. And so this notion that we,

839
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 1: you know, are all better off, We're all better off,

840
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 1: this notion that we all want to be loved and

841
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:29,800
Speaker 1: need to be loved is so foundational. But at the

842
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:33,239
Speaker 1: same time, I imagine for you it's still a struggle in

843
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 1: terms of changing minds, because I've seen so many clips

844
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 1: with you where you've presented something, you know, just a

845
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 1: perfect example, you had a woman who was very upset

846
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:46,319
Speaker 1: that a notion that a woman I think Kamala Harris

847
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:49,000
Speaker 1: at the time may have been Hillary, but I think

848
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:51,360
Speaker 1: it was commona was going to be president because she said,

849
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:53,920
Speaker 1: as a woman, she says, too many hormones, she's going

850
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:56,759
Speaker 1: to get us into a war. And your immediate retort is, well,

851
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 1: haven't all the wars been started by men? And she

852
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:04,040
Speaker 1: paused and still went on. I mean, you didn't change

853
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:08,200
Speaker 1: her mind in this notion of changing minds, changing hearts,

854
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:12,439
Speaker 1: changing behaviors. I imagine that's been a struggle for you

855
00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 1: with all of these interactions.

856
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. I mean, I will say the intention

857
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:21,759
Speaker 2: of these interactions is not to change. The intention is

858
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 2: like again, my bias is towards comedy, finding hypocrisy and irony,

859
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:31,319
Speaker 2: and more often than not, it's like, I'm curious as

860
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:33,959
Speaker 2: to how far the propaganda has spread and how deep

861
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 2: it is inside these people's mindsets, and so I don't

862
00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 2: find people's minds being changed being confronted with information, and

863
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:44,520
Speaker 2: frankly across the board in my personal life as well,

864
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 2: it's like, oh, this idea that, oh, if I have

865
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:51,280
Speaker 2: the information and give this person, that mind will get changed.

866
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:55,359
Speaker 2: I think one of my favorite interactions was I was

867
00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:58,279
Speaker 2: talking to a woman during Trump's first impeachment and she

868
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 2: was talking about how Trump is innocent and this was

869
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 2: the time when he was blocking testimony from John Bolton

870
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 2: amongst other peoples.

871
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 3: And I said, well, if he.

872
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 2: Was innocent, he wouldn't be blocking people from testifying. And

873
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:13,920
Speaker 2: she's like, exactly, he's innocent. He wants everybody to speak,

874
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:15,719
Speaker 2: he wants everybody to testify. And I was like, well,

875
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 2: so if he was blocking people, that would be like

876
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaker 2: proof of his guilt.

877
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:20,880
Speaker 3: He was like, of course, of course, but he's not

878
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:21,399
Speaker 3: doing that.

879
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:24,360
Speaker 2: I say, he is doing that, and she takes this

880
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:26,480
Speaker 2: really long beat and she thinks about it, she really

881
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 2: hears me, and then she goes, I don't care and

882
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:33,719
Speaker 2: that's I was like, thank you, because more often than not,

883
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:37,080
Speaker 2: the conversations that I have out there, the politics is

884
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:39,960
Speaker 2: the pretense, it's the fun, it's the paying that people have.

885
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:43,319
Speaker 2: This is an identity for so many people, and they

886
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 2: will jump into the abortion debate and some people believe

887
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:48,080
Speaker 2: it vehemently, but more often than not, it's just the

888
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:52,840
Speaker 2: the tools you use to play the identity. And so

889
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:55,280
Speaker 2: when it comes to like changing people's minds, changing people's

890
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:58,360
Speaker 2: identity is hard. Once you put on that hat, people

891
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:00,200
Speaker 2: see you in that hat. And it's not just that

892
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:02,640
Speaker 2: you can take the hat off, because your whole community

893
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 2: saw you as the guy with that hat. And that's

894
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:08,279
Speaker 2: a hard thing. It's beyond just buying it. It's how

895
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:10,880
Speaker 2: you are perceived. It's how now your families see you.

896
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,239
Speaker 2: It's I think about like families who have now lived

897
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:14,880
Speaker 2: in this this Trump era.

898
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 3: For twelve years.

899
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:20,360
Speaker 2: You've lost friendships, family members based on it. Like, to

900
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:23,920
Speaker 2: change your mind is a big, big, big ask.

901
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:26,239
Speaker 3: And so I don't I don't think it. I don't.

902
00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:27,480
Speaker 3: I don't think it happens.

903
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:31,360
Speaker 2: With just facts, but I do think, Like, to me,

904
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 2: what I'm always on and on about is this certainty

905
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 2: that we have that I think is so unbecoming.

906
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 3: And it is.

907
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:42,280
Speaker 2: It is. It is a necessary trait in the world

908
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:45,840
Speaker 2: of social media and online engagement to be the most certain,

909
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 2: loudest version of yourself. But the only way that I've

910
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:54,440
Speaker 2: seen any kind of movement and change or like with

911
00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:57,719
Speaker 2: the bricksuit guy, like a moment or a space for that,

912
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:02,200
Speaker 2: it comes with with uncertainty that I bring to the table,

913
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 2: and then he can match it. And so for all

914
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:09,400
Speaker 2: of my well meaning, thoughtful progressive folks who are like,

915
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:11,480
Speaker 2: if I just get the right information an article to

916
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:14,719
Speaker 2: give to my cousin, it will be fine. Like I

917
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:17,320
Speaker 2: don't think it's going to do it, give it a shot.

918
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:21,239
Speaker 2: But to me, the only stopping I've seen is when

919
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:24,560
Speaker 2: you enter the conversation with an I don't know or

920
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:28,320
Speaker 2: something you are uncertain about, which is a scary place.

921
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 2: The internet doesn't want you to start that way, but

922
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 2: like that invitation has been the only way to get

923
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:38,319
Speaker 2: somebody else to at least like like, at least bring

924
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:41,480
Speaker 2: the barricades down a bit, to let some new light

925
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:44,319
Speaker 2: in and see.

926
00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:50,280
Speaker 1: I love the words you're using. You talk about meaning,

927
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:53,880
Speaker 1: You talk about community and the power of identity and

928
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:57,120
Speaker 1: how you shake that identity but with humility and grace.

929
00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:00,720
Speaker 1: And I think it begs the question hardly the words

930
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:05,240
Speaker 1: you would use typically with this topic. But the Epstein issue,

931
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:09,880
Speaker 1: I mean that invites what to you in this whole conversation,

932
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:12,840
Speaker 1: what does Epstein mean in relationship to everything you just said.

933
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:16,040
Speaker 2: Well, it's fascinating to watch it play out on the

934
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 2: right because it does feel like it feels like a

935
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:26,719
Speaker 2: promise broken right now. It's Epstein and this idea of

936
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 2: this conspiracy that would come out with something I heard

937
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 2: on the trail for the last eight years, and and

938
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:36,520
Speaker 2: I do think to me, like we've we've talked a

939
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:38,920
Speaker 2: little bit about this in some off camera about like

940
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:43,080
Speaker 2: about the difficulty of governing. And I think so many people,

941
00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:45,839
Speaker 2: so many people who go to a Trump rally and

942
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:49,799
Speaker 2: are there are there just for the show and the community.

943
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 2: I think part of it's because there's a disconnect between

944
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 2: what they see governing as and what politics is. Like

945
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:00,440
Speaker 2: I think like they have they feel disconnected from what

946
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:03,239
Speaker 2: government can do for them, and so therefore they might

947
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:05,040
Speaker 2: as well have fun with the game of the politics.

948
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:06,360
Speaker 2: And Trump is like, well, let me just play the

949
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 2: politics part and when he gets into the governing part

950
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 2: where I'm curious about right now, I was like, well,

951
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:14,200
Speaker 2: there's a connection. Now. Now this person actually has the

952
00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:16,520
Speaker 2: power that you have given them. Do you like this big,

953
00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:19,279
Speaker 2: beautiful bill. Do you like your healthcare options right now?

954
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:21,600
Speaker 2: Do you like what's happening at the border? Do you

955
00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:24,200
Speaker 2: like the information that you're getting or not getting about

956
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:27,080
Speaker 2: Jeffrey Epstein? But Trump is done a good job of

957
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:31,120
Speaker 2: living in the chasm between politics and governing, and so

958
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:33,400
Speaker 2: I do think there is a real disconnect with so

959
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:36,000
Speaker 2: many people who voted for Trump, not with a true

960
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:38,440
Speaker 2: idea that they thought he would change things, but that

961
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:40,880
Speaker 2: he was the most interesting version to be in a

962
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:43,719
Speaker 2: system that they thought could never change. So I think

963
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:48,200
Speaker 2: we're in that right now. And the Epstein thing is

964
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:51,680
Speaker 2: cracks in a bit, because if you really, if you've

965
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:54,560
Speaker 2: really bought into this conspiratorial mindset which a lot of

966
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:58,080
Speaker 2: people have, and that these people can deliver this truth

967
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:01,400
Speaker 2: to you, it's hard not to see the writing that

968
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:04,879
Speaker 2: is on the wall Ockham's razor is super sharp here

969
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:09,520
Speaker 2: about why some of this information might be withheld, why

970
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:11,640
Speaker 2: you're not getting all the things you were promised. And

971
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:13,520
Speaker 2: I think we're going to see all the shucking and

972
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:15,799
Speaker 2: driving from the Trump administration trying to get you to

973
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:18,959
Speaker 2: focus on something else. But it is an inherent lie

974
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:23,440
Speaker 2: towards the Trump brand that I don't know what the

975
00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 2: long term effects of it will be, but I think

976
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:30,480
Speaker 2: his success will be in the fact that if he's

977
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 2: created a populace that is so pessimistic about the effect

978
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:39,120
Speaker 2: of the government, then he may win out in this.

979
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:42,319
Speaker 2: But if there's actually some faith left in that these

980
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:44,719
Speaker 2: people can do good for you, he's gonna have a

981
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:46,680
Speaker 2: hard time writing that circle.

982
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:51,279
Speaker 1: Before we close. Or I'm interested and I want to

983
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:54,160
Speaker 1: connect back to that eighteen nineteen year old guy that

984
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 1: you know, just his identity, speaking of identity was all

985
00:49:56,680 --> 00:50:00,239
Speaker 1: attached to yeah, to Trump, but also to you in

986
00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:03,440
Speaker 1: some respects that that's all part of this sort of

987
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:07,840
Speaker 1: dialectic and this game is you describe it and everything's

988
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:11,000
Speaker 1: everyone's relationship to one another, the good versus the bad,

989
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:14,120
Speaker 1: you know, the truth all that. What you know if

990
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:18,879
Speaker 1: you've seen just through your journey, you look at young

991
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:22,200
Speaker 1: folks and you you know you've done a lot on masculinity.

992
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:24,680
Speaker 1: You've talked about you know, we're we talk so much

993
00:50:24,719 --> 00:50:27,440
Speaker 1: about telling boys what not to be. We don't talk

994
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:30,839
Speaker 1: about what they should be. And there's the andrew Tates

995
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:33,280
Speaker 1: of the world that infamously sort of fill that void.

996
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:36,000
Speaker 1: And and we've seen that weaponize with trump et cetera.

997
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:38,359
Speaker 1: And you see that eighteen nineteen year old, you see

998
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 1: your own son. Where are we in terms of the

999
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:46,320
Speaker 1: generational shift on all of this, even in the distinction

1000
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:50,680
Speaker 1: you just made around campaigning versus governing and the relationship

1001
00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:52,960
Speaker 1: to Epstein in that, but is there? Do you see

1002
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:57,799
Speaker 1: any generational changes underway? Do you see any hope in

1003
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:02,720
Speaker 1: that distinction young versus old, new versus you know what's

1004
00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:04,000
Speaker 1: I mean?

1005
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:04,279
Speaker 3: I do.

1006
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:08,640
Speaker 2: I think your podcast with Richard Reeves I thought was great,

1007
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:11,439
Speaker 2: and I think there's a lot of people talking really

1008
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:14,279
Speaker 2: in depth about this crisis of masculinity that's happening right now,

1009
00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:17,799
Speaker 2: which I'm seeing echoed in all the places that I

1010
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:21,399
Speaker 2: go to this I did especial recently that was looking

1011
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:26,040
Speaker 2: at sort of the new MAGA movement, and where I

1012
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:28,360
Speaker 2: found hope was sort of in a surprising place. I

1013
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:30,600
Speaker 2: went to a Turning Points event, I went to a

1014
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:34,880
Speaker 2: UFC event, and I think I was in my mind

1015
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:39,719
Speaker 2: I think, especially at like the Turning Points, Texas A

1016
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:42,640
Speaker 2: and m event, I was expecting maybe the most extreme

1017
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:46,200
Speaker 2: of the MAGA movement to be echoed in these eighteen

1018
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:49,040
Speaker 2: year olds. And when I went down down there and

1019
00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:52,160
Speaker 2: talked to the students, I think what I was surprised by.

1020
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:57,440
Speaker 2: They were conservative. Most of them also are very very religious.

1021
00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:01,120
Speaker 2: But when I talked to them about like, they didn't

1022
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:04,400
Speaker 2: they didn't care about the cultural war stuff. Now it

1023
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:07,640
Speaker 2: doesn't mean Charlie Kirk, who is you know, one hundred

1024
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:09,319
Speaker 2: feet away, I know you've spoke it to as well,

1025
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:11,520
Speaker 2: like he will get on that culture war stuff and

1026
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:13,600
Speaker 2: he wants to talk about that stuff. And it doesn't

1027
00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:17,080
Speaker 2: mean that these students won't hear that, I won't glomb

1028
00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:19,680
Speaker 2: onto it. But it wasn't top of mind for folks,

1029
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:24,840
Speaker 2: and I naively assumed a cruelty that did not exist

1030
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:27,000
Speaker 2: in the eighteen year olds that I talked to. I

1031
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:30,560
Speaker 2: thought when we talked about deportations that they would chomp

1032
00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:33,920
Speaker 2: on the bit. I thought we talked about trans athletes

1033
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:37,480
Speaker 2: or LGBTQ rights, that like a wall would go up

1034
00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:41,560
Speaker 2: or cruelty would emerge, And frankly, it didn't happen the

1035
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:44,680
Speaker 2: people I talked to were interested in jobs, They were

1036
00:52:44,680 --> 00:52:50,920
Speaker 2: interested in the country, patriotic talking about like defense security,

1037
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:56,120
Speaker 2: but they didn't they didn't care about LGBTQ not They

1038
00:52:56,160 --> 00:52:58,799
Speaker 2: didn't care about LGBTQ issues as a way to like

1039
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:01,439
Speaker 2: to fight over or to be upset about. They wanted

1040
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:05,040
Speaker 2: people to have equal rights and protections and and and

1041
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:06,800
Speaker 2: I think it be keep aware to me, I was like,

1042
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:09,960
Speaker 2: I'm projecting a cruelty that exists within this movement that

1043
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:12,040
Speaker 2: I think it does exist. I think the Trump administration

1044
00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:16,759
Speaker 2: thrives on the cruelty, uh and and and that as

1045
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:21,279
Speaker 2: a tool to to create obedience. But when I talk

1046
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:25,480
Speaker 2: to the youth, they are looking for attention and also

1047
00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:28,360
Speaker 2: meaning and community. And I saw turning points as an

1048
00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:31,400
Speaker 2: interesting example of like, oh, they're like, oh, what is

1049
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:34,800
Speaker 2: this thing over here? This thing that's popular online? Oh, online,

1050
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:39,480
Speaker 2: the place that everybody either becomes an influencer or doesn't

1051
00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:41,160
Speaker 2: like that. That's the sphere I want to be a

1052
00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:43,800
Speaker 2: part of. Let me go pay attention to that. And

1053
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:46,520
Speaker 2: weren't interested in the cruelty of that message, but they

1054
00:53:46,520 --> 00:53:48,719
Speaker 2: were interested in the performance of that message. They were

1055
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:51,600
Speaker 2: interested in the popularity of that message. But at their core,

1056
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:54,840
Speaker 2: these were these were nice kids who were still forming

1057
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:58,200
Speaker 2: their own worldview in a in a kind space. And

1058
00:53:58,239 --> 00:54:01,880
Speaker 2: so when I think of that younger generation and I think,

1059
00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:04,319
Speaker 2: I think there there is a kindness there that is

1060
00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:07,120
Speaker 2: not that that that is that is different than the hardened,

1061
00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:10,520
Speaker 2: older maga uh generation that we see right now. And

1062
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:12,680
Speaker 2: I and I hope, I hope there's space for them

1063
00:54:12,719 --> 00:54:15,839
Speaker 2: to find find what they care about and do good

1064
00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:18,120
Speaker 2: in this world and not sort of be manipulated by

1065
00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:21,239
Speaker 2: these these older generations who want nothing more than to

1066
00:54:21,239 --> 00:54:24,399
Speaker 2: to weaponize these these points of view and these these

1067
00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:25,280
Speaker 2: malleable minds.

1068
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:28,880
Speaker 1: And two final questions, I want to I'll go, I

1069
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:30,880
Speaker 1: want to go back as we began on Redistrict for

1070
00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:34,040
Speaker 1: different reasons perhaps, and so may think, but I want

1071
00:54:34,040 --> 00:54:36,319
Speaker 1: to pick up just what you said. You know, if

1072
00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:38,920
Speaker 1: someone's listening to this, they're saying, Okay, we're we're now

1073
00:54:38,920 --> 00:54:41,680
Speaker 1: in sort of the megasphere, we're talking about the manosphere.

1074
00:54:42,440 --> 00:54:45,480
Speaker 1: We're in that zeigeist but without the situational awareness that

1075
00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:49,080
Speaker 1: a lot of this sort of ideological identity politics, the

1076
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:52,440
Speaker 1: sort of notion of community and meaning also finds its

1077
00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:56,080
Speaker 1: way on the left as well, uh not denied that.

1078
00:54:56,680 --> 00:54:59,440
Speaker 1: What you know in terms of that to the extent

1079
00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:02,279
Speaker 1: that does exist and what has to stipulate it does?

1080
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:06,640
Speaker 1: What is the What have you learned about Maga? We

1081
00:55:06,719 --> 00:55:10,040
Speaker 1: talked about repetition, We talked about that sense, that broader

1082
00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:14,040
Speaker 1: sense of community. What Trump has provided people in that space?

1083
00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:20,920
Speaker 1: Any prescription for Democrats, any prescription for my party that's struggling.

1084
00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:24,000
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, the Wall Street Journal lowest you know.

1085
00:55:24,040 --> 00:55:26,440
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, there's no doubt you look at

1086
00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:29,440
Speaker 1: the polling on the Democratic Party. Some don't like it,

1087
00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:31,600
Speaker 1: referred to as toxic, but it's toxic for a lot

1088
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:34,839
Speaker 1: of people. People sort of immediately are moving away from it.

1089
00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:37,879
Speaker 1: What's your over under in terms of what we can

1090
00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:41,480
Speaker 1: do differently or better? Are there lessons that we can

1091
00:55:41,560 --> 00:55:44,640
Speaker 1: learn from the MAGA movement? There, I say, or suggests

1092
00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:48,520
Speaker 1: from the experiences you've had in those hundred rallies ninety

1093
00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:52,759
Speaker 1: two hundred rallies with humility and grace that I think

1094
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:55,400
Speaker 1: a party that is out of power needs.

1095
00:55:55,480 --> 00:55:59,200
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean I think there's there's like there's functional things,

1096
00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:01,279
Speaker 2: which is like meeting people where they are, and I

1097
00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:03,880
Speaker 2: think like literally we joke about this, but it is

1098
00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:07,279
Speaker 2: it is podcast the internet, like understand the conversation where

1099
00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:09,360
Speaker 2: you need to have those conversations. I think that's like,

1100
00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:12,400
Speaker 2: that's that's baseline. But a big part of what I

1101
00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:19,719
Speaker 2: see a younger generation connecting to is authenticity. And it

1102
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:22,000
Speaker 2: feels it took me a while to see what was

1103
00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:24,520
Speaker 2: authentic about Donald Trump in so many ways, a very

1104
00:56:24,719 --> 00:56:29,239
Speaker 2: authentic human being who's constantly projecting things that are untrue.

1105
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:33,080
Speaker 2: But the feeling of Donald Trump is one that I

1106
00:56:33,120 --> 00:56:36,160
Speaker 2: think is received as authentic for so many people there.

1107
00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:39,399
Speaker 2: He feels like, if not a true teller, somebody who

1108
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:41,560
Speaker 2: says it like it is, who's not beholden two other

1109
00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:44,520
Speaker 2: things again, the veracitor, the of that I don't stand for,

1110
00:56:44,719 --> 00:56:47,640
Speaker 2: but I do see people like, oh, they don't see

1111
00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:50,279
Speaker 2: him as a politician. Where they connect with him is

1112
00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:52,400
Speaker 2: on an authentic space. And I do when I hear

1113
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:55,799
Speaker 2: the Democratic Party to talk about you know who is,

1114
00:56:56,040 --> 00:56:57,920
Speaker 2: who are the next space is? And how do we

1115
00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:00,600
Speaker 2: do this? And I know you're a part of that conversation.

1116
00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:02,560
Speaker 2: The aocs are part of the conversation.

1117
00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:03,480
Speaker 3: In New York.

1118
00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:07,200
Speaker 2: Mamdani is such an interesting part of the conversation, right.

1119
00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:10,120
Speaker 3: Now where that on a local level was.

1120
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:14,160
Speaker 2: Really fascinating to watch, Like all the prognosticators said like, oh,

1121
00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:16,520
Speaker 2: this isn't how New York works, this is how politics works.

1122
00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:18,680
Speaker 2: But then there's this guy who's like, ah, I want

1123
00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:20,360
Speaker 2: to talk about stuff that I think is important, which

1124
00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:24,160
Speaker 2: is like jobs and people are hurting. Jobs, people are hurting.

1125
00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:26,480
Speaker 2: How can we give them something to look forward to?

1126
00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:28,320
Speaker 2: And I know how to do that in a way

1127
00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:32,880
Speaker 2: that doesn't feel political, it feels authentic, And that broke

1128
00:57:32,920 --> 00:57:34,160
Speaker 2: through in a way that I think a lot of

1129
00:57:34,200 --> 00:57:36,360
Speaker 2: New Yorkers are like, huh, everybody told us this wouldn't

1130
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:41,120
Speaker 2: break through. I think this next wave of democratic leadership

1131
00:57:41,160 --> 00:57:44,120
Speaker 2: and this party needs to needs to one to know people.

1132
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:48,240
Speaker 2: People want action and they want people who authentically want

1133
00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:51,240
Speaker 2: to make change. I don't know how, Like I do

1134
00:57:51,320 --> 00:57:54,240
Speaker 2: think what the Republican Party has done so well is

1135
00:57:54,280 --> 00:57:56,400
Speaker 2: create a party of like pointing at them and they

1136
00:57:56,400 --> 00:57:58,320
Speaker 2: are the problems. And I think you're seeing now, like

1137
00:57:58,520 --> 00:57:59,919
Speaker 2: what can they solve in GOUM.

1138
00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:02,680
Speaker 3: Governing is hard. I don't need to tell you that.

1139
00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:07,800
Speaker 2: I understand the difficulties within it all and that how

1140
00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:11,040
Speaker 2: slow it is. But I think big action by Democrats

1141
00:58:11,600 --> 00:58:16,200
Speaker 2: to really go after those core issues of health and

1142
00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:19,680
Speaker 2: of jobs, by somebody who feels like they're talking man

1143
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:23,680
Speaker 2: on man with the Democratic populace. I feel like that's

1144
00:58:23,680 --> 00:58:25,520
Speaker 2: where it's going to live. And so much of the

1145
00:58:25,520 --> 00:58:27,720
Speaker 2: party I hear talking about like are we too left,

1146
00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:28,880
Speaker 2: are we too moderate?

1147
00:58:28,920 --> 00:58:29,920
Speaker 3: Are we this way or this way?

1148
00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:32,680
Speaker 2: I'm like that gets in the way, Like you need

1149
00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:37,160
Speaker 2: to be a person Like right now, all of these kids,

1150
00:58:37,240 --> 00:58:40,040
Speaker 2: these younger generations, they are staring at phones with a

1151
00:58:40,080 --> 00:58:42,560
Speaker 2: person that they feel connected to, who tells them to

1152
00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:45,120
Speaker 2: buy this lipstick, They tell them to vote this way,

1153
00:58:45,280 --> 00:58:47,120
Speaker 2: They tell them this is cool or this is not cool,

1154
00:58:47,160 --> 00:58:50,240
Speaker 2: and they listen. You need to be an authentic person

1155
00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:52,600
Speaker 2: who can communicate. And that's why you can look like

1156
00:58:52,600 --> 00:58:55,400
Speaker 2: Bernie Sanders or could look like aot to very different

1157
00:58:55,400 --> 00:58:58,640
Speaker 2: people of different generations, but who feel authentic to an audience.

1158
00:58:58,920 --> 00:59:01,600
Speaker 2: It's like, I think that mess just has to feel authentic,

1159
00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:05,520
Speaker 2: be authentic, and be one of like of change, because

1160
00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:10,320
Speaker 2: people feel so scared right now and so nervous right now.

1161
00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:13,440
Speaker 2: Like this idea of who has a vision for change

1162
00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:15,440
Speaker 2: that I can believe and trust, I think that's what

1163
00:59:15,480 --> 00:59:18,280
Speaker 2: people want everybody, and even on the right where cracks

1164
00:59:18,280 --> 00:59:20,560
Speaker 2: in the MAGA movement. It's like, tell me that you

1165
00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:23,600
Speaker 2: see a way that this can be better and bigger

1166
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:26,400
Speaker 2: and fairer. I think that is a populis message that

1167
00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:28,200
Speaker 2: like the Dems can can own.

1168
00:59:29,640 --> 00:59:32,400
Speaker 1: I want to end there, but I want to get

1169
00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:36,920
Speaker 1: to redistricting because the tactics of that and what Donald

1170
00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:39,560
Speaker 1: Trump I mean, he was on CNBC today and he

1171
00:59:39,680 --> 00:59:42,800
Speaker 1: was asked about the Texas redistrict and he said that

1172
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:46,760
Speaker 1: he's earned the right to have those five seats. I mean,

1173
00:59:46,840 --> 00:59:49,560
Speaker 1: it's analogous to the hour long phone call with the

1174
00:59:49,560 --> 00:59:52,840
Speaker 1: Secretary of State in Georgia. Find me eleven thousand, however

1175
00:59:52,880 --> 00:59:55,640
Speaker 1: many twelve thousand votes. Now, he says to Greg Abbott,

1176
00:59:55,680 --> 00:59:58,160
Speaker 1: the governor of Texas, find me five seats. And he said,

1177
00:59:58,200 --> 01:00:01,440
Speaker 1: I won Texas overwhelmingly, so tho are my seats? And

1178
01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:03,640
Speaker 1: in order to make everything else possible to have that

1179
01:00:03,680 --> 01:00:07,320
Speaker 1: conversation about health care and about affordability, and about being

1180
01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:11,120
Speaker 1: able to even introduce yourself as the authentic self when

1181
01:00:11,120 --> 01:00:14,960
Speaker 1: we're rigging a system or changing the game mid census

1182
01:00:15,000 --> 01:00:17,920
Speaker 1: in this case, that's pretty damn alarming. You were there

1183
01:00:17,960 --> 01:00:21,800
Speaker 1: on January sixth. Now this guy realizes in eighteen months

1184
01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:27,200
Speaker 1: he may have some oversight with a different majority, the

1185
01:00:27,200 --> 01:00:31,040
Speaker 1: Democratic majority in Congress, in the House in particular, and

1186
01:00:31,080 --> 01:00:33,080
Speaker 1: so he wants to rewrite the rules. What is your

1187
01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:37,720
Speaker 1: sense of that in relationship to everything else? And what

1188
01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:41,840
Speaker 1: does it mean to you? Is it about power, dominance

1189
01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:45,240
Speaker 1: and aggression? Is it the brand MAGA? Is it? Is it?

1190
01:00:45,560 --> 01:00:48,680
Speaker 1: Is it about strength versus weakness? You know sort of

1191
01:00:48,680 --> 01:00:52,640
Speaker 1: that framework? Is that? Is that a paradigm that's you

1192
01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:56,640
Speaker 1: know that you've observed Democrats, Republicans? What MAGA? What Trump represents?

1193
01:00:56,760 --> 01:00:59,160
Speaker 1: What does it redistrictly mean at this moment? Yours from

1194
01:00:59,160 --> 01:00:59,680
Speaker 1: your respect?

1195
01:00:59,720 --> 01:01:02,800
Speaker 2: I mean, honestly, I think this moment is so fascinating.

1196
01:01:02,840 --> 01:01:05,120
Speaker 2: It's I'm you know, I'm I'm honored to get to

1197
01:01:05,120 --> 01:01:07,440
Speaker 2: talk to you about it in this this time we

1198
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:10,120
Speaker 2: are in because I'm I'm reading this nude right now.

1199
01:01:10,720 --> 01:01:14,360
Speaker 2: It's it's such a such an obvious power grab, and

1200
01:01:14,360 --> 01:01:20,120
Speaker 2: it's scary, it's authoritarian, it's it's anti democratic and and

1201
01:01:20,160 --> 01:01:22,640
Speaker 2: to me, where I see it in Omaga movement is

1202
01:01:23,280 --> 01:01:24,400
Speaker 2: it will be lauded.

1203
01:01:24,160 --> 01:01:25,320
Speaker 3: As a success.

1204
01:01:25,520 --> 01:01:27,800
Speaker 2: You know, I do think we talk about the cruelty

1205
01:01:27,800 --> 01:01:29,880
Speaker 2: that is inherent there. But I think, like so much

1206
01:01:29,960 --> 01:01:33,880
Speaker 2: a part of this identity is in making other people

1207
01:01:33,960 --> 01:01:36,680
Speaker 2: pay that like to the victor, go the spoils. It's

1208
01:01:36,680 --> 01:01:39,320
Speaker 2: it's you know, I'm It's been Trump's brand forever, like

1209
01:01:39,360 --> 01:01:41,680
Speaker 2: it's it's capitalism one o one. It's like, I get

1210
01:01:41,680 --> 01:01:43,560
Speaker 2: this because I work the hardest, screw you work a

1211
01:01:43,600 --> 01:01:46,120
Speaker 2: little bit harder. And so I feel like that is

1212
01:01:46,160 --> 01:01:50,080
Speaker 2: like a new framing device for democracy, which I wish

1213
01:01:50,360 --> 01:01:53,120
Speaker 2: I I I wish we were able to push back

1214
01:01:53,160 --> 01:01:55,680
Speaker 2: against that. And so you have what you guys are

1215
01:01:55,960 --> 01:01:59,520
Speaker 2: talking about doing here too, which I will say I have,

1216
01:01:59,640 --> 01:02:02,520
Speaker 2: like I don't know how to feel about it. I

1217
01:02:02,560 --> 01:02:06,320
Speaker 2: am so scared as to what Trump is doing and

1218
01:02:06,360 --> 01:02:09,200
Speaker 2: it is so unfair and so undemocratic and and just

1219
01:02:09,240 --> 01:02:11,960
Speaker 2: a powagram. And on one hand, I'm like, I want

1220
01:02:12,000 --> 01:02:15,240
Speaker 2: to see I want to see democratic governors and democrats

1221
01:02:15,360 --> 01:02:17,720
Speaker 2: fight back, fight fire with fire. I think that is

1222
01:02:17,760 --> 01:02:20,040
Speaker 2: what there is a real yearning for. And at the

1223
01:02:20,040 --> 01:02:23,600
Speaker 2: same time, I am scared to run into like an

1224
01:02:23,680 --> 01:02:28,760
Speaker 2: undemocratic arms race, and so I don't I don't know,

1225
01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:32,160
Speaker 2: like even walking into this podcast, I'm like, man, I

1226
01:02:33,200 --> 01:02:36,120
Speaker 2: respect that something that you do well as I think

1227
01:02:36,120 --> 01:02:38,480
Speaker 2: you step up to the plate with Donald Trump and

1228
01:02:38,680 --> 01:02:40,440
Speaker 2: you punch a bully in their chin. And I think

1229
01:02:40,480 --> 01:02:43,280
Speaker 2: that is a big part of where the Democratic base

1230
01:02:43,280 --> 01:02:46,680
Speaker 2: can find success in this movement. And yet I worry about, like,

1231
01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:49,360
Speaker 2: where are the norms that we have to keep in

1232
01:02:49,480 --> 01:02:51,320
Speaker 2: place and where are the norms that we have to

1233
01:02:51,360 --> 01:02:54,080
Speaker 2: throw out in order to be in a place where

1234
01:02:54,120 --> 01:02:55,000
Speaker 2: norms can exist?

1235
01:02:56,120 --> 01:02:59,480
Speaker 1: Well said, I mean it's as someone that's supported independent

1236
01:02:59,480 --> 01:03:02,920
Speaker 1: redistrict as an elected official. When at first was presented

1237
01:03:02,960 --> 01:03:05,520
Speaker 1: to the voters of California, it took me a little

1238
01:03:05,520 --> 01:03:06,960
Speaker 1: bit to get on the other side of this. But

1239
01:03:07,000 --> 01:03:10,760
Speaker 1: now I'm realizing to your point the existential nature of

1240
01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:13,200
Speaker 1: this moment and the other side there are no rules.

1241
01:03:13,200 --> 01:03:15,680
Speaker 1: There are assassins in this respect in terms of the

1242
01:03:15,880 --> 01:03:20,760
Speaker 1: approach they take to power and to ultimately control. And

1243
01:03:20,840 --> 01:03:22,960
Speaker 1: so you know, we're not only going to fight fire

1244
01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:25,840
Speaker 1: with fire, We're gonna punch above our weight. California is

1245
01:03:25,840 --> 01:03:29,440
Speaker 1: the size of twenty one state populations combined. We have

1246
01:03:29,520 --> 01:03:33,280
Speaker 1: an independent redistricting. We have not jerry mandered our state.

1247
01:03:33,960 --> 01:03:39,280
Speaker 1: No state has more to give to this contribution of

1248
01:03:39,440 --> 01:03:42,240
Speaker 1: the counter offensive than the state of California. So we'll

1249
01:03:42,280 --> 01:03:45,040
Speaker 1: neuter what they're doing in Texas, but we'll one up

1250
01:03:45,040 --> 01:03:49,240
Speaker 1: that because we'll take some of the more competitive districts

1251
01:03:49,680 --> 01:03:53,360
Speaker 1: and they'll be less competitive as a consequence. And your point,

1252
01:03:53,640 --> 01:03:56,440
Speaker 1: it's an arms race. I'm not naive about that, but

1253
01:03:56,520 --> 01:03:59,000
Speaker 1: it's also you know, we're raced to two point fifty

1254
01:03:59,120 --> 01:04:01,600
Speaker 1: next year. Is that found the celebration of the Founding

1255
01:04:01,640 --> 01:04:05,160
Speaker 1: Fathers in the vision that the Founding Fathers laid out

1256
01:04:05,200 --> 01:04:08,439
Speaker 1: the best of Roman republic, Greek democracy, system of checks

1257
01:04:08,440 --> 01:04:12,320
Speaker 1: and balances, the rule of law, popular sovereignty, it's all

1258
01:04:13,120 --> 01:04:16,800
Speaker 1: all at risk. And so forgive me for belaboring the point.

1259
01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:19,880
Speaker 1: But I think the point you're making is a difficult one.

1260
01:04:19,960 --> 01:04:22,240
Speaker 1: Is how you reconcile those two things. You want to

1261
01:04:22,280 --> 01:04:24,320
Speaker 1: do the right thing, you want to you know, sort

1262
01:04:24,360 --> 01:04:27,240
Speaker 1: of aspire to the you know, the better angels, but

1263
01:04:27,320 --> 01:04:30,200
Speaker 1: we also have to be accountable to this moment.

1264
01:04:31,200 --> 01:04:32,840
Speaker 3: To be clear, you think we're gonna make it to

1265
01:04:32,960 --> 01:04:33,959
Speaker 3: two fifty.

1266
01:04:34,520 --> 01:04:36,400
Speaker 1: We're gonna, we have no choice, but we of course

1267
01:04:36,400 --> 01:04:37,560
Speaker 1: we're gonna build the hell.

1268
01:04:39,360 --> 01:04:39,720
Speaker 3: I don't know.

1269
01:04:39,760 --> 01:04:42,200
Speaker 2: I'm looking at property in Montreal, just trying to get

1270
01:04:42,200 --> 01:04:43,840
Speaker 2: a sentence of like, Okay, do you think.

1271
01:04:44,000 --> 01:04:46,040
Speaker 1: You give us worry about singularity and AI?

1272
01:04:46,400 --> 01:04:49,080
Speaker 2: So you're a get all everything, cover to everything.

1273
01:04:49,200 --> 01:04:53,080
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we didn't even get to AI, thank god.

1274
01:04:53,160 --> 01:04:57,360
Speaker 1: But enough of the anxiety, hey, Jordan, Uh, thank you man.

1275
01:04:57,480 --> 01:05:00,120
Speaker 1: This was this was a great not good This was

1276
01:05:00,160 --> 01:05:04,439
Speaker 1: a great conversation. Uh it was. And you know what, uh,

1277
01:05:04,560 --> 01:05:07,880
Speaker 1: you know, keep doing what you're doing. But also, you know,

1278
01:05:08,000 --> 01:05:12,240
Speaker 1: if you need a you need another job. If if

1279
01:05:12,280 --> 01:05:14,560
Speaker 1: these sons of bitches figure out a way to cancel

1280
01:05:14,680 --> 01:05:18,000
Speaker 1: the Daily Show uh and try to cancel you, you're

1281
01:05:18,040 --> 01:05:21,120
Speaker 1: going to be in the political consulting business soon. So

1282
01:05:21,200 --> 01:05:22,520
Speaker 1: you're fine, my friend.

1283
01:05:22,320 --> 01:05:24,480
Speaker 2: Are you are you offering me one of these Congress seats?

1284
01:05:24,520 --> 01:05:26,280
Speaker 2: Is that what you're doing?

1285
01:05:26,320 --> 01:05:28,240
Speaker 1: Oh? I know, that's been your dream in life, that's

1286
01:05:28,280 --> 01:05:31,480
Speaker 1: been your aspiration. You see a little improv on the

1287
01:05:31,600 --> 01:05:36,919
Speaker 1: on the house. Then you get Gnarley what but what's

1288
01:05:36,920 --> 01:05:37,240
Speaker 1: her name?

1289
01:05:37,320 --> 01:05:37,480
Speaker 2: Mark?

1290
01:05:37,520 --> 01:05:38,560
Speaker 1: Marjorie Taylor Green?

1291
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Speaker 2: Every day of the week, I'm gonna say, what what

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Speaker 2: a what a lovely workplace to walk into.

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Speaker 1: Jesus, And we didn't even get to mac Gates to

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Speaker 1: be continued.

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, Yes, Well, I got plenty of stories,

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Speaker 2: so have me on for around two This was this

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Speaker 2: was this was truly a delight.

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Speaker 1: I appreciate it, I appreciate Thanks so much, man, that

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Speaker 1: was great. Thank you Rob.

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Speaker 2: Them located at