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Speaker 1: Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heeart Radio podcast.

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Speaker 2: Okay, this week's special guests, We've got Amy Alexander on

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Speaker 2: The Refuge Center for Counseling began in two thousand and

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Speaker 2: five and provides forty one thousand counseling sessions for over

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Speaker 2: four thousand clients annually.

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Speaker 3: Is that correct?

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Speaker 4: Yes?

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Speaker 3: Okay, great.

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Speaker 2: Amy Alexander is not only mining Kristen's therapist, but she is.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you started Refuge, co founder, co founder, so

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Speaker 2: and we want to talk about E M, D R DV.

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Speaker 2: So thank you Amy for coming in and sitting down

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Speaker 2: on our couch today.

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Speaker 5: You're welcome.

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Speaker 2: You know, I gotta say, I'm it's a weird spot

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Speaker 2: to be and when you're excited about some an episode,

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Speaker 2: but you're also it's also heavy the topic of it.

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Speaker 3: And but I do.

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Speaker 2: I gotta say. I like Amy being on our couch

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Speaker 2: this time, Kristen, we.

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Speaker 3: Have sat on her couch.

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Speaker 4: Actually for you, We actually have we have a for you, Amy,

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Speaker 4: Amy like the most protective therapist in the history of therapists.

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Speaker 4: Like I'll group chat Jana and Amy and say, you know,

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Speaker 4: even about today, like you know, just really praying over

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Speaker 4: us over and over again, and I felt like even

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Speaker 4: then she was going to sign and with.

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Speaker 3: Like her response was going to be a.

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Speaker 5: Can deny always.

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Speaker 4: I'm like, hey, Jana said she was just here, and

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Speaker 4: she was like, I cannot confirm or deny that, and

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Speaker 4: I'm like, no, I literally just saw her. You want

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Speaker 4: to facetimeer She'll say it too, butting us always, we

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Speaker 4: appreciate you coming here and sitting on our couch because

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Speaker 4: we have obviously spared our soul on your couch and

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Speaker 4: you've helped us through so much.

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Speaker 2: So thank you for coming and bringing your your wisdom,

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Speaker 2: your your words that have helped us so much. And

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Speaker 2: you know, I think for me, one of the main

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Speaker 2: reasons that I want to talk to you and you

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Speaker 2: have helped me get to a place where when I

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Speaker 2: was going through abuse was to trust myself. And I

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Speaker 2: think that's the hardest piece to get to because it's

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Speaker 2: so much of it is crazy making and you know,

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Speaker 2: I there's so much there's like, there's so many questions,

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Speaker 2: and I think for me, one of my biggest ones

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Speaker 2: is just I don't want to say like the definition,

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Speaker 2: but so many people go, well, he wasn't physical, so

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Speaker 2: but I'm like, but verbal abuse is just as abusive

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Speaker 2: as physical. And I said so many times to you

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Speaker 2: that the hands that were laid on me didn't hurt

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Speaker 2: as much as the words that were said to me.

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Speaker 2: And you know, how, how can someone go because I

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Speaker 2: think it's hard for people to say it's abuse when

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Speaker 2: it's not physical. You can speak on that piece of it.

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Speaker 2: That would be hopefully helpful, I think for others too.

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Speaker 1: But well, first and foremost, it is an honor for

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Speaker 1: me to be here with you, guys, And more than anything,

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Speaker 1: what I want to do is highlight and commend your

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Speaker 1: courage and your bravery. You are two ladies that show

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Speaker 1: up and do the hard work. Frequently you get to

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Speaker 1: my office and tell a really hard truth and do

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Speaker 1: very difficult work. But you keep showing up, and you

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Speaker 1: keep showing up, and you keep showing up, and you

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Speaker 1: should have a platform to speak to people because you've

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Speaker 1: done the hard work. There's a lot of people that

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Speaker 1: want to talk and give advice and give wisdom, but

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Speaker 1: they're not really behind a closed door bearing their soul.

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Speaker 1: And I just want to testify to the fact that

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Speaker 1: that's what you guys do. You are congruent in that way,

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Speaker 1: you're not asking people to do things you're not doing yourself.

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Speaker 1: So think that should be commended. So yes, in terms

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Speaker 1: of how do we define abuse, So I'm going to

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Speaker 1: talk today about intimate partner terrorism. Okay, Intimate partner terrorism

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Speaker 1: is high levels of coercive control. It is power over

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Speaker 1: top down, and oftentimes there's a.

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Speaker 5: Great deal of fear.

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Speaker 1: There are other types of violence that occur in relationships.

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Speaker 1: There's situational violence. So that might be Gosh, every time

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Speaker 1: we talk about this one topic, maybe it's our oldest

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Speaker 1: child or money, things just escalate, they intensify, and we

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Speaker 1: get it gets aggressive, you know, physically, emotionally, we're just

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Speaker 1: not nice to each other.

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Speaker 5: That's situational violence.

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Speaker 1: There is also sort of a reactive violence, which is,

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Speaker 1: if someone puts their hands on me again this weekend,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to fight back. I am no longer going

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Speaker 1: to not take care of myself now. The intention behind

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Speaker 1: someone who is fighting back is not to establish power

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Speaker 1: and control and dominance over their partners to protect themselves.

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Speaker 1: But what we're talking about today is a specific and

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Speaker 1: strategic set of behaviors that is intended to establish power

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Speaker 1: and control over someone. So what I would introduce you

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Speaker 1: to is something called the power and control wheel, and

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Speaker 1: that was developed out of the Duluth Project in Minnesota

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Speaker 1: in the mid eighties. And if you can picture a wheel,

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Speaker 1: maybe you can put it in the show notes even

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Speaker 1: but if you can picture a wheel, on the outside

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Speaker 1: is physical and sexual violence. So those are the things

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Speaker 1: that we know are abusive. We could tell a friend

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Speaker 1: and they would say that's abusive.

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Speaker 5: We could go to the law.

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Speaker 1: The lot would say yes, that's abusive, and you'd probably

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Speaker 1: be eligible for a restraining order of protection. The hard

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Speaker 1: part is that by the time we're experiencing physical or

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Speaker 1: sexual abuse, there's a lot of other things that have

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Speaker 1: been happening, usually for quite some time, that we knew

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Speaker 1: felt bad, but we didn't know to call it abuse. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so I'm going to quickly go through those things. One

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Speaker 1: of those things is intimidation, making you afraid with looks, actions, gestures.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it's blocking doorways during arguments so that you can't

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Speaker 1: leave the bathroom or the kitchen. Maybe it's holding up

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Speaker 1: a knife while we're cooking dinner together and no one

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Speaker 1: lunged at you. There's been no curse words, but just

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Speaker 1: the look on your partner's face tells you this could

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Speaker 1: get bad. Okay, emotional abuse, calling someone names, making them

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Speaker 1: feel bad about themselves, blaming them for things. I've worked

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Speaker 1: with many people who would say that the bruises that

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Speaker 1: don't heal are the names and the words that were

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Speaker 1: used to describe me, And.

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Speaker 5: That's the stuff that sticks. That's the most painful.

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Speaker 1: Isolation is controlling where someone goes, what they can do.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it's I have access to all of your text

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Speaker 1: messages and emails. I'm tracking the mileage on your car.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you're not even aware of it. A lot of

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Speaker 1: times you find a tracking device on your car. Now,

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Speaker 1: the thing I will say about isolation is that when

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Speaker 1: we know that the only way to stay safe in

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Speaker 1: a relationship is to keep the peace right at all

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Speaker 1: of our waking breaths are about keeping the peace, we

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Speaker 1: slowly become disconnected from ourselves. So we lose touch with

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Speaker 1: do I like yoga or not? Do I want to

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Speaker 1: go to church or not? Do I like red lipstick?

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Speaker 1: What are my hobbies, my passions, my interests. That's not

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Speaker 1: a priority anymore. It's keeping my partner happy. So when

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Speaker 1: we first go to therapy, our therapist might ask us

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Speaker 1: very basic questions like well, how do you feel about that?

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Speaker 1: Or what does your gut say? Or what do you

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Speaker 1: want to do? But the self that could answer those

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Speaker 1: questions has become atrophied. Our self muscle has atrophied. And

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Speaker 1: the truth is, we don't know. We don't know, and

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Speaker 1: so it's a very patient process of finding my way

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Speaker 1: back to me in a place where it's safe enough

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Speaker 1: for you know, I get priorities and I get needs. Okay.

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Speaker 1: The next thing is minimizing denying and blaming. So that

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Speaker 1: would be every time you try to address an issue

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Speaker 1: with your partner, they immediately point the finger back at

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Speaker 1: you and it's your fault.

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Speaker 5: So the abuse isn't that bad.

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Speaker 1: It's not happening, you're making it up, or it's your

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Speaker 1: fault if it happens in the first place.

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Speaker 5: Okay.

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Speaker 1: The next part of the wheel would be using kids,

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Speaker 1: putting kids in the middle, making them feel like they

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Speaker 1: have to relay messages. Hey, Johnny, would you put the

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Speaker 1: dishes in the dishwasher? Note Johnny, sit down in this house.

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Speaker 1: Men don't do the dishes right, undermining your authority, perhaps

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Speaker 1: as a parent. So there's a lot of ways that

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Speaker 1: children can be engaged. The next one is privilege or entitlement.

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Speaker 1: And listen, this dynamic occurs if females can be abusive

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Speaker 1: just as males can. It also occurs in same sex relationships.

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Speaker 1: But this is basically saying that because of.

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Speaker 5: My gender, or the amount of money I.

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Speaker 1: Make, or the title I have at work, I am

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Speaker 1: the master of this castle, and I will make the

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Speaker 1: decisions about what you get to know and not know.

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Speaker 1: I'll decide how much you get or don't get. I

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Speaker 1: decide who takes care of the kids or the chores.

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Speaker 1: They make all the decisions because they feel entitled to

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Speaker 1: do that. Now with that, this person is also generally

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Speaker 1: pretty concerned with image management, so they really want to

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Speaker 1: look good to people in authority, okay, and that could

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Speaker 1: include pastors and therapists. So then when you go to

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Speaker 1: try to address the issue with someone you trust, it's

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Speaker 1: tough because if you tell the truth, you've made them

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Speaker 1: look bad in front of someone with authority, and there

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Speaker 1: is usually a consequence for that, and there's a price

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Speaker 1: to pay, and you just start to say less and

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Speaker 1: less of the truth. Two more here economic abuse. So

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Speaker 1: that's preventing you from getting a job or keeping a job,

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Speaker 1: not letting you know about certain accounts or funds, not

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Speaker 1: aware that there's money you should have access to. And

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Speaker 1: then the final thing would be coercion and threats, the

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Speaker 1: most powerful of which is probably if you leave me,

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Speaker 1: I'll kill myself. I mean, that is quite a load

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Speaker 1: to carry. How scary is it to think about having

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Speaker 1: to make that decision. Sometimes these are veiled threats, and

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Speaker 1: it could be threats to turn you in for something,

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Speaker 1: or to harm the children, or to come after you.

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Speaker 1: But listen, all of these things contribute to the power

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Speaker 1: and control dynamic. So it's so much more than physical

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Speaker 1: and sexual abuse.

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Speaker 5: It's so much more.

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Speaker 3: I'm a little.

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Speaker 5: Take your time, take your time.

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Speaker 3: Pretty wild to me to hear.

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Speaker 4: How many of those applied to what was modeled to

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Speaker 4: me growing up. Yeah, I would say almost all. Okay, okay,

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Speaker 4: And I think what's wildly clarifying is I do not

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Speaker 4: blame either parent.

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Speaker 3: I don't and I.

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Speaker 4: Have had a really exceptional therapist walk with me through

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Speaker 4: these times. So I think what's interesting is when you

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Speaker 4: strip it down and it gets by definition, it loses

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Speaker 4: the power, The shame and the gas lighting lose their

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Speaker 4: fuel for me. So like, I mean, almost everything you

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Speaker 4: named I saw modeled. Okay, it's your story, and that

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Speaker 4: is pretty powerful. You and I haven't really talked a

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Speaker 4: ton about that part of my life, you know, it's

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Speaker 4: a piece of it. Like we have worked a lot through,

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Speaker 4: like the deaths and the you know, relationship with my dad,

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Speaker 4: but we've never like talked in depth. I not for

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Speaker 4: any reason, maybe just it just has come up a

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Speaker 4: lot lately. But I have never, by definition, seen anything

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Speaker 4: outline my parents' relationship. So clearly, if you add an

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Speaker 4: alcohol and drug abuse layer to that, I check probably

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Speaker 4: every box.

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Speaker 3: So it's just wildly clarifying. When you're reading that. I

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Speaker 3: just kept going, like unbelievable.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, here it is right.

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Speaker 1: So many people will say, you know, my partner just

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Speaker 1: struggles with anger, and if they could just do like

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Speaker 1: a you know, sixteen week anger management class and learn

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Speaker 1: how to journal and take deep breaths and walk away,

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Speaker 1: this wouldn't be a problem. Or they say, my partner

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Speaker 1: drinks too much, and if they could just do twenty

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Speaker 1: eight days in rehab and stop drinking, this wouldn't happen anymore.

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Speaker 1: And one thing I really want to clarify is this

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Speaker 1: is not necessarily about anger substances. Those can escalate situations,

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Speaker 1: but it is about someone's values and their belief system.

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Speaker 1: If I believe that this is how I get my

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Speaker 1: needs met, that it's okay for me to treat my

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Speaker 1: partner like this.

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Speaker 5: That this is acceptable.

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Speaker 1: If I believe that, then I can be sober and

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Speaker 1: I can have all the anger management techniques in the world,

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Speaker 1: but the thing that drives the behavior will not change.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, what's wild is that hasn't even been a conversation

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Speaker 4: in my family. So it wasn't if he gets sober.

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Speaker 4: If he did that, it's just yeah, do not talk

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Speaker 4: about it, Okay, avoid it, pretend it doesn't exist. And

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Speaker 4: so then imagine that is the base level. And then

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Speaker 4: you've got two little kids that come under and they're all,

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Speaker 4: we're just trying to figure out where we belong. Obviously

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Speaker 4: we are loved, right that we were told we were loved.

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Speaker 4: We always had a roof over our head, we always

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Speaker 4: had food. But when you're operating and growing a nervous

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Speaker 4: system in this situation where literally all of those things

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Speaker 4: have been a check mark, that's a lot for a little.

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Speaker 1: Kids, a lot it's a lot for anybody.

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Speaker 3: I just have that.

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Speaker 4: That was a very like, a very clarifying because I

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Speaker 4: know what I know to be true about the things

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Speaker 4: I've seen and I've heard and I witnessed. I know

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Speaker 4: it and I deal with it. But I deal with

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Speaker 4: it by myself most of the time, meaning it is

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Speaker 4: not common. It's not talked about in my family system.

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Speaker 4: And the minute I try to take some ground, it's,

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Speaker 4: you know, villainized. I'm I'm just the villain.

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Speaker 1: So you'd like to talk about it, you'd like to

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Speaker 1: create a space to have some conversations.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, because I also, you know, I came to a

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Speaker 4: point in my adult life where I realized my dad

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Speaker 4: was just a little boy, a hurt little boy. And

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Speaker 4: this is the most I've ever talked about any of this.

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Speaker 6: On here specifically, I keep it pretty like thirty thousand feet.

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Speaker 6: So I love him and care about him, and I

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Speaker 6: felt sad for the little boy that felt that he

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Speaker 6: didn't have a choice, and for a little boy who

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Speaker 6: grew up and tried to get control wherever he could

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Speaker 6: get it. So my frustration is not ever for the

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Speaker 6: things I can't change. I gave a lot of grace

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Speaker 6: and a lot of and not public grace.

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Speaker 3: And not even.

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Speaker 4: Vocal grace to my mom. I just knew she was

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Speaker 4: operating in a system that probably chipped away at her,

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Speaker 4: and she was doing the best she could do. She

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Speaker 4: was young, and we did the best he could do.

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Speaker 4: But I was really the only one to stand up

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Speaker 4: to him, and that I think was a point of

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Speaker 4: contention for him and I and a point of unspoken understanding.

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Speaker 4: I was not afraid of him, and that was terrifying

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Speaker 4: to him. So as a little kid to have witnessed

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Speaker 4: domestic violence as an adult, to be underminded when I

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Speaker 4: say things like that, You know, I've got family members

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Speaker 4: that have spoken on several different occasions to say, is

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Speaker 4: sweeping it under the rug not acknowledging or gaslighting people

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Speaker 4: that didn't live in my house. I want to be

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Speaker 4: really clear about that. You know. That's always wild to

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Speaker 4: me when someone has such an outward opinion about the

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Speaker 4: things that happened in a home they didn't live in.

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Speaker 3: But I think it's really important.

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Speaker 4: To speak on all of it because I know there's

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Speaker 4: women that are moms, or women that are career women,

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Speaker 4: or women that listen to us in bathtubs or on

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Speaker 4: walks or in cars that still feel like they can

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Speaker 4: can't speak up, or if they do, like it's just

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Speaker 4: an isolating feeling to be.

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Speaker 3: A child of this and it's never been acknowledged.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's there's risks and implications to acknowledging it, right,

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Speaker 1: because if I acknowledge that's true for you and that

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Speaker 1: that happened to you, what then do I have to

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Speaker 1: look at in my own life? Right, there's a right,

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Speaker 1: there's work that's to be done there. But I you're

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Speaker 1: a truth teller, you always have been. You see things

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Speaker 1: very very clearly, and then it's just drumming up the

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Speaker 1: courage to trust yourself and tell the truth. And I'm

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Speaker 1: really proud of you today talking about what you grew

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Speaker 1: up with and how hard it felt to be the

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Speaker 1: child who's very fragile and vulnerable and yet you're having

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Speaker 1: to take on the bully in the house.

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Speaker 5: That's hard.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And it's weird too, because.

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Speaker 4: There's been times in my adult life where I'm like, oh, well,

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Speaker 4: it wasn't like it's almost like I judge having a

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Speaker 4: feeling about it, you know, it wasn't until like it's

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Speaker 4: really been difficult. I don't know if there is a

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Speaker 4: correlation the fact that love is now at an age

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Speaker 4: where I vividly remember things.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I'm parenting this little.

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Speaker 4: Young version of me, you know, and I don't project

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Speaker 4: onto her, but I fiercely protect them being kids and

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Speaker 4: getting to keep childhood and deal with things that come

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Speaker 4: at an age appropriate level. And so you know, like

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Speaker 4: I had shared with Janna that I watched an episode

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Speaker 4: of a TV show recently, and I don't think Preston

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Speaker 4: even really understands. I don't talk about it, you know,

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Speaker 4: like it's what's kind of what's the point I guess

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Speaker 4: in my brain, Like I don't share that every day.

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Speaker 4: It's not like, oh and then I saw, you know,

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Speaker 4: my dad hit my mom or grab her by the throat,

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Speaker 4: like you know, like that isn't but that's a really

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Speaker 4: powerful image to have in your brain for a girl

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Speaker 4: who then.

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Speaker 3: Wants to try to grow up and trust a man

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Speaker 3: and build a home.

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Speaker 2: And well it's interesting too, like you sharing that story

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Speaker 2: is a because I grew.

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Speaker 3: Up with volatile illusions.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and where I went was I then, like I

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Speaker 2: don't believe that from that experience for me, I ended

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Speaker 2: up then dating abusers because that's what was modeled to

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Speaker 2: me to stay in that chay.

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Speaker 1: This concept of repetition, compulsion or trauma re enactment. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so our brains are hardwired for resolution. We really want

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Speaker 1: to make sense of the story and we want to

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Speaker 1: put the pieces back together again. There's a book called

349
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Speaker 1: Betrayal Bond, and essentially what's described there is that I

350
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Speaker 1: keep returning. This is unconscious, right, this is an unconscious

351
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Speaker 1: thing that's happening. But I keep returning to the scene

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Speaker 1: of the accident again and again, this time thinking from

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Speaker 1: a place of power, I can change the ending, but

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00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:08,800
Speaker 1: the wound only deepens, So I keep going back to

355
00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,560
Speaker 1: the same profile of person. Or I keep going back

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Speaker 1: to that toxic well of water and I keep drinking,

357
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Speaker 1: hoping I'll be nourished and hydrated, and I get sicker

358
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Speaker 1: and sicker. Yeah, we're trying to work it out. And

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Speaker 1: one thing that's really important is the cycle because.

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Speaker 2: Well, and that's what I wanted to speak on, was

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Speaker 2: because breaking up with the abuser is probably the hardest

362
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Speaker 2: piece that I had to deal with multiple times with therapy,

363
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Speaker 2: because it's you know, it's I've always not loved admitting

364
00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,159
Speaker 2: that pieces, but you know, the first time that I

365
00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:46,920
Speaker 2: had called the cops on my first abuser, I went

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Speaker 2: back to him that night and slept with him because

367
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Speaker 2: I was the one that I thought it was my

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Speaker 2: fault and I was made to feel crazy. And you know,

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Speaker 2: he had taken pictures of the dogs on the one

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Speaker 2: to one freeway, saying, if you don't come home, I'm

371
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Speaker 2: releasing you know, your dog on the freeway, and it

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Speaker 2: was like the picture of him trying to commit suicide.

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Speaker 2: So I was like, I have to get back. And

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Speaker 2: then I come back and it's like I'm so sorry,

375
00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:09,840
Speaker 2: like it's my fault, and you know, it was. I

376
00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:12,639
Speaker 2: was made to feel crazy, and then it becomes that cycle,

377
00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:14,640
Speaker 2: which is what I wanted you to talk about, because that,

378
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:17,639
Speaker 2: to me was always the hardest cycle to break with,

379
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Speaker 2: either a physical abuser or the verbal abuser that I've

380
00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:27,320
Speaker 2: have had in history's past. And you know, even sitting

381
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,480
Speaker 2: with you trying to work through that piece of abuse

382
00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:33,920
Speaker 2: and just going back to it, but it's always it's

383
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:38,680
Speaker 2: them making us feel like we're the problem and we're crazy.

384
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:43,119
Speaker 2: That I think has what kept me in the cycle

385
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Speaker 2: of having repeated abusive relationships and staying in them. So

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Speaker 2: I would love for you to speak on that cycle

387
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Speaker 2: that you helped me so much see and heal from.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because from the outside, what would be the common question, like,

389
00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:00,600
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, why doesn't she leave?

390
00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:01,080
Speaker 2: Right?

391
00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:02,200
Speaker 5: She walk away?

392
00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:06,679
Speaker 1: Okay, So most relationships start out in some sort of

393
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:11,280
Speaker 1: honeymoon seduction or peacemaking faith. In the beginning, it's really good.

394
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Speaker 1: In fact, it might be the best it's ever been.

395
00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,520
Speaker 1: A lot of times, this profile of individual can be

396
00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:22,600
Speaker 1: charming and charismatic. They're very interested in you, they want

397
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:24,239
Speaker 1: to spend a lot of time with you, get to

398
00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:28,520
Speaker 1: know you. They're passionate about moving the relationship to the

399
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:31,440
Speaker 1: next stage, and gosh, you're thinking, this is everything I've

400
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,840
Speaker 1: ever wanted my whole life. I've been waiting for this person,

401
00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:40,000
Speaker 1: and it's really really good. But at some point in

402
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:43,440
Speaker 1: the relationship, it might be six months in. I can't

403
00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:45,359
Speaker 1: tell you how often I hear it happens on the

404
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,520
Speaker 1: honeymoon or right after the wedding. But at some point

405
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:54,560
Speaker 1: something shifts and we start feeling this tension. Okay, a

406
00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:56,880
Speaker 1: lot of people say I feel like I'm walking on eggshells.

407
00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:00,920
Speaker 1: Lundy Bancroft in his book, Why does he do that?

408
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,520
Speaker 1: He talks about it's like my partner is tilling away

409
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:08,240
Speaker 1: at negative grievances against me, stockpiling them to be used

410
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,119
Speaker 1: later as weapons. But it's like, all of a sudden,

411
00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,520
Speaker 1: you're getting everything wrong. Dinner was too cold, the kids

412
00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:17,240
Speaker 1: were too loud, your skirt was too short, pick a thing.

413
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:20,240
Speaker 1: But on any given day you are just upsetting your

414
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,080
Speaker 1: partner about all these things, and half the time you

415
00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:24,920
Speaker 1: can't guess what it's going to be tomorrow. You're trying

416
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:26,920
Speaker 1: to figure it out, like why am I upsetting them?

417
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:31,760
Speaker 1: And then at some point there is a violation or explosion.

418
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:35,760
Speaker 1: So this could be physical or sexual abuse. It could

419
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:37,800
Speaker 1: be berating you in the bed in the middle of

420
00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:40,040
Speaker 1: the night. It could be holding you down on the

421
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:43,760
Speaker 1: ground and calling you names, any number of things. But

422
00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,160
Speaker 1: at some point, if the relationship was ever here, if

423
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:50,479
Speaker 1: it was ever equitable, once that explosion has occurred, that

424
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,919
Speaker 1: power dynamic shifts, and as hard as we might try

425
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,880
Speaker 1: to get it back, we know that there's the capacity

426
00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:01,000
Speaker 1: for this right and if it just in did it explosion?

427
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:03,960
Speaker 1: If it was linear, I mean we'd be out right.

428
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,520
Speaker 1: But it's cyclical, So what do we circle right back

429
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:10,560
Speaker 1: to honeymoon seduction, peacemaking, and for some people in the

430
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:12,880
Speaker 1: nineteen sixties they would call this like the hearts, flowers

431
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,840
Speaker 1: and candy face. So I'm so sorry, this will never

432
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:20,960
Speaker 1: happen again. Here's flowers, gifts, I'm changing diapers in the

433
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,720
Speaker 1: middle of the night. There's a new pickup truck in

434
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:27,800
Speaker 1: the driveway for you. The thing is, your partner knows

435
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 1: your language of seduction. They know the thing that's going

436
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:35,880
Speaker 1: to hook you back in the cycle, and so that's

437
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:37,480
Speaker 1: the thing they're going to do. The hard part is

438
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:39,800
Speaker 1: they know it before you do, so, so part of

439
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 1: the work is figuring out how am I seduced back

440
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,040
Speaker 1: into this cycle. So around and around we go, and

441
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:47,800
Speaker 1: each time we move through the cycle it increases in

442
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:52,520
Speaker 1: intensity and frequency. Now, even if it happens once a

443
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 1: year or once a day, we're tracking is this a cycle?

444
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:59,000
Speaker 1: But here's here's the part you reference, Jenna. The same

445
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:03,480
Speaker 1: person it tortures me is the same person who rescues me.

446
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:07,280
Speaker 5: And that makes me.

447
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:13,640
Speaker 1: Feel crazy, Yes, me feel crazy. So why the heck

448
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 1: do we stay? Well, I mean, we probably really love

449
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:20,000
Speaker 1: this person. We love them, We've given and given and given,

450
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 1: have built a life and maybe have children. There's the

451
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,000
Speaker 1: hope that dreams and the possibility that if I can

452
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 1: just figure out what's upsetting them, it'll be better, because

453
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:31,159
Speaker 1: it's so good when it's good. And then there's the

454
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,640
Speaker 1: denial that it's not that bad, you know, I don't

455
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 1: get hit all the time, and the fear of can

456
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 1: I raise these kids alone? Can I support myself? I

457
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:42,879
Speaker 1: haven't had a job in ten ten years. Who's going

458
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 1: to protect them when they're with my partner on weekends

459
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,880
Speaker 1: and there's nobody to stand in front And frankly, will

460
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 1: anyone believe me? Because there's a real doctor Jekyl mister

461
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 1: hide to this and so nobody else has seen this

462
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,879
Speaker 1: side of them except me? Will anyone believe me that

463
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:00,359
Speaker 1: this is really happening.

464
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,440
Speaker 2: If someone is in that cycle that's listening right now.

465
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:20,120
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously therapy is the one of the best things,

466
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:24,199
Speaker 2: but what would be like, what do you I know

467
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 2: what you tell them, but what do you tell the

468
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 2: person that sits on your couch to help? Because it's hard,

469
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:34,920
Speaker 2: right because you're clearly hearing the stories that this person

470
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,679
Speaker 2: is being abusive. You want them and I think our

471
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:41,160
Speaker 2: biggest work has always been for me to trust myself,

472
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 2: and in that trust would then be the answer that

473
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:47,400
Speaker 2: I would know that I would what I would need

474
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,719
Speaker 2: to do. But how do you walk that with someone

475
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 2: when they're in that cycle?

476
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 1: Okay, this is important, and I hope friends and family

477
00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:00,200
Speaker 1: and ministers and everybody's listening. When you're sitting in front

478
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:02,440
Speaker 1: of someone who's been told what to think, what to feel,

479
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 1: and what to do, and they come to you for

480
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 1: help and support you with really good intentions, what do

481
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 1: you do tell them what to do? You tell them

482
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 1: what to think, what to feel, and what to do.

483
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:20,440
Speaker 1: And in this dynamic, that's revictimizing, okay, because you are

484
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 1: just one more person who has power that they want

485
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 1: to keep happy. So they're going to tell you what

486
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:27,920
Speaker 1: they think you want to hear, or they're going to

487
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 1: leave because you said they should.

488
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 5: So that's not.

489
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:36,679
Speaker 1: What we do here. We listen more and talk less.

490
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 1: We think with someone, not for them. We provide solutions

491
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 1: and resources and options, but we don't have an agenda

492
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 1: or a timeline. My success of that a therapist is

493
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 1: not dependent on whether you stay or leave. I don't

494
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,200
Speaker 1: have ego in the game. I'm here no matter what

495
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,439
Speaker 1: you decide, as long as it's your decision. Okay, So

496
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 1: that's the flavor of what we're going for.

497
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,240
Speaker 2: But how do you get them to find that truth

498
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 2: in them? And I mean, again, I know we've done

499
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:09,880
Speaker 2: the cards and EMDR, which I really want to get.

500
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 2: One of my main questions and people that wrote in

501
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 2: on the What to Ask You was about EMDR and

502
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 2: how does it work? And I think it's a huge

503
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:24,399
Speaker 2: part of how I've worked through anxiety and trauma. But

504
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 2: it's like, what, what is the thread with helping them

505
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 2: break that's because it is the hardest cycle to break.

506
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,200
Speaker 2: It truly is, especially when you're in it and you're

507
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:37,479
Speaker 2: just like made to think you're just crazy.

508
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 3: So think you deserve it, And yeah.

509
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 5: I know, I know kind of takes a long time.

510
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 4: Mine's a piggyback on that too, and I know you'll

511
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 4: probably do it both, but like, what is a step

512
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 4: one for someone who's listening and going like listening to

513
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 4: the wheel and you're going check, check, check check. It's

514
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 4: not my relationship personally, but that qualifies and validates me.

515
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 4: But someone's listening and they're checking even one of those boxes,

516
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 4: it feels impossible. I witnessed that. I witnessed the impossibility

517
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 4: of getting out, and so what is a step one?

518
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 4: It's a very overwhelming if they can't maybe afford therapy,

519
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 4: or or if there's control over their time and they

520
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 4: can't get to therapy. Therapy can be a threat to

521
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 4: abusers as well.

522
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're asking, you're really asking two different questions for

523
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 1: someone who this is resonating with. First of all, I

524
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 1: know all of our hearts are with that person. I

525
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 1: don't know what that feeling is in your body right

526
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 1: now as you're hearing this information and you're thinking, oh,

527
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 1: my goodness, I didn't realize it, but I might be

528
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 1: in an abusive relationship. I think that the very first

529
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 1: step is educating yourself, and that could be through a

530
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 1: list of books and resources, you know, Getting Free by

531
00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 1: Jennin McCarthy, the verbally abusive relationship, You do that, all

532
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 1: those things. I just need to start understanding the dynamic

533
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 1: of what I live in. I might say I might not,

534
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 1: but I need to educate myself on how this happens

535
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 1: and why it happens, and even looking at things like

536
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 1: the profile of an abuser, so I understand is my

537
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 1: abuser leaning more towards a victim, the player, the terrorists,

538
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 1: the water torture, like, there's different flavors of this. So

539
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 1: step one is education and almost every city is going

540
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 1: to have support groups, free support groups, shelters if need be,

541
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 1: legal advocates. There's a lot of free resources of therapy's

542
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 1: not on the table. So maybe I get one of

543
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 1: these books and I start attending the free support group

544
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 1: on Thursday nights. I'm just understanding what my choices are. Okay,

545
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 1: So that's an option in therapy. Think of a three

546
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 1: legged stool. You've got this stool of three legs. The

547
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 1: first leg is the same. It's safety planning in psycho education.

548
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 1: So we're just going to learn about this and then

549
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 1: your receptivity to it, your interest in it. Almost think

550
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 1: of like if we had built a fire in my

551
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 1: office and we're looking at this fire. It's big and

552
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 1: it's hot. There's a part of you that might want

553
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 1: to step towards it because it warms you, and another

554
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 1: part of you that might want to step back from

555
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 1: it because it feels so hot. I'm not here to

556
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 1: tell you what to do with that fire. It's in

557
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 1: front of us, and now you get to do with

558
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 1: it as you feel ready. And what am I doing

559
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 1: as a therapist. I'm building autonomy. I'm trusting your decisions

560
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 1: and your timeline, and I'm showing you that you can

561
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 1: make good decisions. So I'm not playing out an agenda

562
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 1: for you in my room, but safety planning and psycho education.

563
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:37,720
Speaker 5: Okay.

564
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 1: If I'm going to stay, I have a safety plan.

565
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 1: If I'm going to leave, I need a safety plan.

566
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 1: I need a good attorney, I need a po box,

567
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 1: I may need pepper sprat, you know all those things.

568
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 1: Leg two is trauma processing, So that's where we would

569
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 1: do things to cathart the energy from your body of

570
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 1: the painful experiences you've had. It's very difficult to do

571
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:00,040
Speaker 1: that when you're going to leave at three o'clock and

572
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 1: go home to the same situation. So that's a dance

573
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,479
Speaker 1: about when is it time to do trauma therapy?

574
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 5: Okay?

575
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 1: And the third leg, which is so fun, is self discovery.

576
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 1: So I've cleared the channels of all the stuff. I

577
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 1: understand what has happened to me, and now I get

578
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 1: to figure out who the heck do I want to be?

579
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 3: And what do you want?

580
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 5: What do you want?

581
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and it's so beautiful and remarkable, and I

582
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 1: think of it like going into a dark library, and

583
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 1: for all these weeks I've been like shining a flashlight

584
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:34,280
Speaker 1: and look at this book over here, and look at

585
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 1: this resource, and then one day you like turn the

586
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,960
Speaker 1: lights on. Yeah, oh my gosh, this was here all along.

587
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think one of my favorite moments with you

588
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 2: in therapy was when I was, you know, with my

589
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 2: axe and I'm obviously not in a good place, and

590
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 2: we're laying out these cards of where I'm at, sad, lonely, scared,

591
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 2: all the things, and then where I want to be,

592
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 2: and you're like, okay, how do we get there?

593
00:32:57,840 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 3: You know, just.

594
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 2: Like you know, and then having that realization of what

595
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 2: I need to do, and it was like I saw,

596
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 2: it has to be hard as a therapist to sit

597
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 2: with the amount of stuff that we do bring that

598
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 2: you know, everyone has, but that has to be also

599
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 2: a moment for you too to be happy for the

600
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 2: person that's in front of you that you've been helping

601
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:26,719
Speaker 2: walk through it with. You know, I can't imagine how

602
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 2: that is as a therapist to go, you know, to

603
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 2: watch someone suffer and then find their truth in a room.

604
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 1: I used to think about what's a metaphor for how

605
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 1: it feels to care for someone in a domestic violence situation.

606
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 1: And I didn't know anything about boxing as a sport,

607
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 1: but I, you know, I knew enough to know. A

608
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 1: couple of people get in a ring and they hit

609
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 1: each other and punch, and somebody goes to the ground,

610
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 1: and then this bell rings and they go to their corners.

611
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 1: And this guy called a cutter, I think, I hope

612
00:33:58,000 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 1: that's the right term. But he jumps in the ring

613
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 1: and there's an ice pack and they're wiping off blood

614
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 1: and sweat, and then the bell rings and they go

615
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 1: back in. And I will tell you, at times I

616
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,399
Speaker 1: feel like a cutter as a therapist, like I get

617
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,480
Speaker 1: fifty minutes a week to wipe off the blood and

618
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:15,359
Speaker 1: the sweat and to put an ice pack on it,

619
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 1: and then you're back in it again. But I would say, Janet,

620
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 1: it's not actually hard for me, because twenty twenty four

621
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:31,279
Speaker 1: years I've been doing this, I have pockets full of

622
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:36,440
Speaker 1: stories of how people have survived and been resilient and

623
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:38,759
Speaker 1: took a path I never could have imagined for them.

624
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,760
Speaker 1: It certainly wasn't my path, but they found their voice

625
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 1: and they found their way. And most people wake up

626
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 1: one morning and on that morning they say, I want

627
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 1: to live and I don't want to live like this anymore.

628
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 1: And on that day they're ready for something to change.

629
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 1: And I just get to be a witness to this.

630
00:34:57,280 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 1: It's amazing.

631
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:13,239
Speaker 2: Can we talk about em DR because a lot of

632
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 2: people will come in. We were talking about it as

633
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:19,760
Speaker 2: I was dealing with not being able to sleep and

634
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,560
Speaker 2: having that anxiety come back. And the reason I got

635
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,359
Speaker 2: recommended to you in the very beginning was because when

636
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:27,839
Speaker 2: I was married to my ex, I was having really

637
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 2: bad anxiety again and the therapist that I was working

638
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 2: with said, you need to go go to refuge and

639
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 2: speak with Amy, and I was introduced to em d R.

640
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:41,720
Speaker 2: I'd done it a couple times before, but didn't really

641
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 2: stick with it. And to be honest, you know, the

642
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,880
Speaker 2: one time it was just the person using their pencil.

643
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:52,759
Speaker 2: I didn't really believe in it at the time. If

644
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:57,440
Speaker 2: it's just felt a little hokey to me. But at

645
00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 2: that point I'm like, I will do anything. So it

646
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,319
Speaker 2: was like there and you're in your office, let's give me, Well,

647
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 2: give me the pencil. You know, what are we doing here?

648
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 2: So can we just kind of talk through that? And

649
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 2: then there was another good question in there too is

650
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 2: can you do it virtually? So two things about EMDR.

651
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, pain and desperation are pretty big motivators, aren't they.

652
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 3: It's in my experience, which is not a bad thing.

653
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:28,279
Speaker 1: It's a decent place to start. So EMDR stands for

654
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:34,880
Speaker 1: ie movement desensitization processing. We became familiar with it in

655
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties through a woman named Francy and Shapiro.

656
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:44,959
Speaker 1: And the bilateral movement is mimicking of something that also

657
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,279
Speaker 1: happens in our rim sleep cycle, although that's in a

658
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:50,880
Speaker 1: sleep state. EMDR is not hypnosis, it's not a sleep state,

659
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:56,799
Speaker 1: but it is addressing multiple things. One is where the

660
00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 1: physiological distress is locked in our body. Okay, because when

661
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 1: you're thinking about that thing that happened, you're probably like,

662
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 1: my throat is closing up. I had this, not in

663
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 1: my stomach. I feel like I'm going to throw up.

664
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:09,839
Speaker 1: I just want to run, right. There's a physiological response

665
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:15,239
Speaker 1: to the distress, but it's also addressing the negative beliefs

666
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 1: that have resulted, as you know, as a byproduct of

667
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:22,800
Speaker 1: the trauma. So I thought one way to talk about

668
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 1: it here would be to give an example. So let's

669
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:29,839
Speaker 1: imagine someone comes to my office. They were referred to

670
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:33,600
Speaker 1: me because they're afraid of water. They would love to

671
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 1: go to the lake with their kids. They have a

672
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:39,399
Speaker 1: pool in their backyard, but every time they're near water,

673
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 1: they just get sick to their stomach. They just want

674
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 1: to run, and they don't really know why. So they're

675
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:47,279
Speaker 1: sent to me at refuge and they come in and

676
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:49,439
Speaker 1: they're telling me, I have this really weird fear of water,

677
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 1: and I want to get over it. It's impairing my

678
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 1: life and some fun things I want to do. So

679
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 1: I might say, okay, take me back to the earliest

680
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 1: time that you can recall feeling afraid of water. They

681
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:06,840
Speaker 1: might say, well, there was this time we had a

682
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:10,319
Speaker 1: backyard in the pool, a pool in the backyard growing up,

683
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 1: and there was this one time I was down deep

684
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,280
Speaker 1: swimming and all of a sudden, my brother jumped into

685
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 1: the pool and he was on my back for a

686
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 1: long time, and I'm looking at the bottom of the

687
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:23,880
Speaker 1: pool and I can't breathe, and I don't know if

688
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 1: he's going to let me up, and ever since then,

689
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 1: I just have this feeling in my body of drowning

690
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:34,439
Speaker 1: or helplessness, like okay, okay, So when you now think

691
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,719
Speaker 1: of water, what are the body sensations that you have,

692
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:40,799
Speaker 1: Like I'm choking, I feel like I can't get a

693
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 1: deep breath. It feels like drowning. What are the emotions

694
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:52,920
Speaker 1: that go with that? Well, the emotions are terror, anger, helplessness.

695
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 1: And on a scale of zero to ten, how intense

696
00:38:57,760 --> 00:38:59,719
Speaker 1: are you feeling that in your body right now? Even

697
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 1: thinking about being near water? I mean it's a ten

698
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:06,840
Speaker 1: ten plus Okay. So what is the belief you have

699
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:10,279
Speaker 1: developed as a result of that negative experience? What's an

700
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 1: im statement? I am helpless? I can't save myself.

701
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 2: Okay.

702
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:19,480
Speaker 5: Do you find that that.

703
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 1: Belief permeates into other parts of your life?

704
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:23,720
Speaker 5: Yeah?

705
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 1: Actually, right now I need to have a hard conversation

706
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 1: with my boss and I'm feeling really helpless and powerless

707
00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 1: to do that. I don't stand up for myself in

708
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:33,800
Speaker 1: my marriage, right Okay, So now you can see this thread,

709
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:38,879
Speaker 1: this negative belief that's affecting other channels.

710
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:38,279
Speaker 5: And what is it?

711
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 1: I know it feels a long ways off, it feels

712
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:43,600
Speaker 1: far away, But what is it you would hope or

713
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 1: prefer to believe instead that I'm not helpless and I

714
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 1: can save myself. Okay, So now we're going to go back.

715
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 1: I'm going to give you your bilateral devices, all right,

716
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 1: So we have tappers that you're going to hold in

717
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 1: your hand. There are little things that buzz left to right.

718
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 1: It's very gentle. It's like a cell phone buzz. We

719
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:05,719
Speaker 1: may put in earbuds that make a gentle tone. It's

720
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 1: kind of a beep beep, just like that, very very soft.

721
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:11,799
Speaker 1: And then some form of an eye movement so that

722
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 1: moves your eyes from right to left, and we can

723
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 1: set the speed to that. I want you to go

724
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 1: back to that memory of the pool, and we're going

725
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 1: to see what you notice from a place of safety.

726
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 1: Because you're here in my office. You've already survived this.

727
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 1: You're safe. Oh, come back, but go back and see

728
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:30,880
Speaker 1: what you notice. So we begin the bilateral movements, and

729
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:36,080
Speaker 1: you're gonna walk through those scenes knowing that you've survived it,

730
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:39,920
Speaker 1: but seeing maybe what you didn't see before, and maybe

731
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 1: you remember, gosh, I threw an elbow in the pool,

732
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 1: and come to think of it, I shoved him and

733
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:49,759
Speaker 1: I was able to swim to the surface. Wait, I

734
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:54,240
Speaker 1: saved myself, right, and you're gonna remember things you didn't

735
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:56,759
Speaker 1: know before. So what we're doing is we're looking to

736
00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 1: shift those negative beliefs that have permeated into your day

737
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:03,560
Speaker 1: to day life and also clear out the energy in

738
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 1: your body.

739
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:07,719
Speaker 2: When I think to what I loved about EMDR is

740
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:10,920
Speaker 2: I've we've used it in multiple areas, not just anxiety.

741
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,040
Speaker 2: It's been something that I brought to that I am

742
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:15,360
Speaker 2: just so angry about that I can't get over, and

743
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 2: you're like, let's do EMDR, and it's it lessens the

744
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 2: the impact that's in my body, like intensity, the intensity, Yeah,

745
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:25,319
Speaker 2: the intensity that's in my body. It's like, when I'm

746
00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 2: done doing EMDR, it's like, huh, I'm actually I feel

747
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 2: so much better.

748
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:33,240
Speaker 4: And I think because it isn't like a switch that's flipped,

749
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:36,240
Speaker 4: like you walk through it. It's not like you follow

750
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:41,239
Speaker 4: the lights one time you stop us and you'll say

751
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:42,200
Speaker 4: tell me what what.

752
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:42,720
Speaker 5: Are you noticing?

753
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 4: Yeah?

754
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:43,840
Speaker 3: What are you noticing?

755
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 5: Yeah?

756
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:48,959
Speaker 4: So you it's like a guided a guided walk through.

757
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 4: And that's what I've always appreciate because it matters to

758
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:55,720
Speaker 4: me to say that because every step in every pause,

759
00:41:55,960 --> 00:42:01,280
Speaker 4: there's something really wonderful that I gain at every little step.

760
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:04,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, negative off, positive on. Is kind of the thing

761
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:07,839
Speaker 1: as where trains moving down the tracks, and many people

762
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,400
Speaker 1: are terrified to go back to those moments. They think

763
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:12,800
Speaker 1: it's going to consume me if I have to remember that,

764
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:14,759
Speaker 1: or I'm going to start crying and I won't be

765
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:17,759
Speaker 1: able to stop. But the reality is looking at it

766
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:20,640
Speaker 1: from adult eyes and looking at it from a place

767
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:25,360
Speaker 1: of safety. Many times there's a beautiful reframe. And for you, specifically, Jenna,

768
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:28,239
Speaker 1: as you're telling more about your own experience, I'm thinking

769
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 1: about how sometimes that process is helpful to you in

770
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 1: identifying what it is you're really mad about and what

771
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 1: you need and then what.

772
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:39,720
Speaker 5: You want to do something about.

773
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:44,239
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yeah, no, for sure. Can someone do it

774
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 2: over telehealth?

775
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:50,319
Speaker 1: There are virtual protocols. I have never used it that way,

776
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 1: but certainly helpful. If you live in a remote community,

777
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:57,760
Speaker 1: you don't have a therapist near you, you're homebound because

778
00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 1: of physical imitation, do't let that stop you.

779
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 4: Also, you can do it in a visit and then

780
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:06,920
Speaker 4: do it again in another visit. Like I was always

781
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 4: intimidated by doing or to do it because I thought, oh,

782
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:12,360
Speaker 4: this is like the big path, Like, this is the

783
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:15,440
Speaker 4: heavy lifting. So if I start it now, I have

784
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 4: to do it every day or every week for.

785
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:19,320
Speaker 3: Six weeks and it will be heavy.

786
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 4: And it's probably one of the lightest and most freeing

787
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 4: things that we've done together.

788
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:26,279
Speaker 3: We've done a lot of things together.

789
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:31,759
Speaker 1: Well for you specifically, Often you hear the Lord. I

790
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:35,440
Speaker 1: mean you hear you know, yeah, really clearly.

791
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:37,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, which is amazing.

792
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 3: I'm like, Amy, do you think I'm crazy?

793
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:39,399
Speaker 2: No?

794
00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 3: Every time?

795
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:43,880
Speaker 1: No, No, like Amy, this is crazy. No, we're not

796
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:44,879
Speaker 1: alone in the room.

797
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 2: No, we never are for someone that is just going

798
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 2: through a difficult time. I think one of my favorite

799
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 2: things about when I was post divorce was your light

800
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 2: in helping me find chase joy.

801
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:00,600
Speaker 3: That was a whole thing.

802
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 2: Was like, go chase joy when someone is in that darkness,

803
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:08,840
Speaker 2: because you're just so well spoken with finding that light Again,

804
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:13,440
Speaker 2: what is your what is your biggest tip for people

805
00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:16,240
Speaker 2: finding that joy when there is so much darkness?

806
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:22,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, and things can get very dark, can't they. I

807
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:24,719
Speaker 1: mean you can feel like I don't know that I

808
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:26,440
Speaker 1: have the strength to go on or get out of

809
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:31,799
Speaker 1: bed or fight this person who tells people terrible things

810
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:34,400
Speaker 1: about me, or I don't know how to stand in

811
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:38,879
Speaker 1: a courtroom. I mean, it can be so daunting. There

812
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 1: is always hope, and the most important thing is that

813
00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:48,279
Speaker 1: you not feel alone. Don't do it alone. I've got

814
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:50,400
Speaker 1: a coffee table in my office. I call it my

815
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:54,000
Speaker 1: truth table, and I tell my clients there's only one

816
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 1: job you have here, one job.

817
00:44:56,880 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 5: Show up and tell the truth. Show up and tell

818
00:44:59,520 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 5: the truth.

819
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:04,319
Speaker 1: And when we can tell our truth, when we can

820
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 1: really unpack this backpack of things we've been carrying for

821
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:12,280
Speaker 1: a long time, and someone acknowledges us and has empathy

822
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 1: and compassion, then we start to create space for hope.

823
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:17,800
Speaker 1: And I think that's even what you're talking about, is

824
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:21,919
Speaker 1: joy and hope all mixed together, that someone will love

825
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 1: me again and that I can rebuild a life that

826
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:25,880
Speaker 1: I'm proud of.

827
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:28,719
Speaker 2: It's interesting you say that piece because I think one

828
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:30,799
Speaker 2: of the hardest things to do is sit and tell

829
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 2: the truth. Like there have been things that I've recently

830
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 2: said of late, and I was like, I don't want

831
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:35,840
Speaker 2: to admit this to you, but I have to to

832
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:39,320
Speaker 2: hold myself accountable to be a better version of myself

833
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:41,000
Speaker 2: and it's like, I don't want to say it because

834
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,080
Speaker 2: I don't want you to be disappointed in me, but

835
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:46,279
Speaker 2: you hold space for not making me feel like I'm

836
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:48,920
Speaker 2: a bad person for having said or done or whatever

837
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:49,319
Speaker 2: it was.

838
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:53,440
Speaker 1: You know, I'm never more proud of you than on

839
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:57,960
Speaker 1: the days you come in and do that. Those are

840
00:45:58,000 --> 00:45:59,240
Speaker 1: the most proud days.

841
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, because I know that you.

842
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 2: Because I have done that in past, and you have

843
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:09,439
Speaker 2: still looked at me and said, Okay, let's break this down.

844
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:12,480
Speaker 2: Like you didn't shame me. You didn't make me feel

845
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:15,879
Speaker 2: like I'm messed up. You're like, yeah, that's not right,

846
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:17,600
Speaker 2: but let's let's figure out how to.

847
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:21,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I keep coming back to this isn't who

848
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:24,200
Speaker 1: you really are, right, Like, this isn't your true self.

849
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:26,440
Speaker 1: And my goal always is to be a champion for

850
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:28,440
Speaker 1: your best and true self.

851
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:31,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, you do that so well for both of us.

852
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 5: It's easy to do it.

853
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 2: Can you tell us about refuge and then especially the

854
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 2: sliding scale of it too?

855
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 5: Sure.

856
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 1: My friend Jennifer and I co founded Refuge Center in

857
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:45,560
Speaker 1: two thousand and fives. We're twenty years in. We have

858
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:48,839
Speaker 1: seventy six therapists who provide services on a sliding fee

859
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:52,200
Speaker 1: scale based on income, So our lowest fee for those

860
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:55,000
Speaker 1: below the poverty line and uninsured, they come for free.

861
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:57,839
Speaker 1: And then our highest fee is one sixty five and

862
00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 1: for some people that's you know, very doable. But on

863
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:04,600
Speaker 1: average our clients pay about seventy seven dollars per appointment.

864
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:07,200
Speaker 1: We want to be sure that no matter who you are,

865
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:11,080
Speaker 1: where you live, job is zip code, what you've done,

866
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:13,720
Speaker 1: what's been done to you when you walk through our doors,

867
00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 1: you deserve the very best access to care and healing.

868
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 1: And so we not only do typical therapy, but we

869
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:22,880
Speaker 1: have a music therapist, we do neuro feedback, we have

870
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:25,719
Speaker 1: art and yoga classes and so it's a pretty comprehensive

871
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:30,360
Speaker 1: holistic thing. But what you know, our theme is everyone matters.

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Speaker 1: And again, no matter what you can pay, when you

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Speaker 1: come through our doors, you deserve good care.

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Speaker 2: Well, thank you for holding space for so many people,

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Speaker 2: and I mean refuse. Refuge has changed my life and

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Speaker 2: you know I love even now. I'm still learning and

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00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:48,359
Speaker 2: growing and we just I walked the labyrinth with you

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Speaker 2: in our last session, and there's so much beauty in

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Speaker 2: the healing work. It's hard work, but it's thank you

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00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:59,880
Speaker 2: for holding the space for the moments to continue to go.

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Speaker 5: It's my greatest honor. It's such a joy.

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Speaker 2: Amy Alexander, thank you so much for coming on wind Down.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, I feel like you've answered so many of

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Speaker 2: the questions through everything that you've talked about, So just

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Speaker 2: thank you for bringing awareness to DV and anything you

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Speaker 2: want to leave the listeners with.

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Speaker 3: I love that there is hope.

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Speaker 5: M m oh, yeah, that's so important. Trust yourself.

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Speaker 3: Yep, sure so I love that.

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Speaker 5: Thank you, Amy, Thank you