WEBVTT - Vaccine Hesitancy Persists Despite Delta Variant 0:00:01.800 --> 0:00:04.440 This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Carol Masser and I'm 0:00:04.480 --> 0:00:07.280 Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stanovk. We're here every day bringing 0:00:07.320 --> 0:00:09.799 you the latest news from the world to business and finance, 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:13.640 plus technology, politics, economics, all partnising the power of Business 0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:17.159 Week reporters and editors, not to mention our journalists and 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:19.640 analysts in more than one and twenty countries. You can 0:00:19.640 --> 0:00:23.239 download Bloomberg Business Week and iTunes, SoundCloud, or Bloomberg dot Com. 0:00:23.400 --> 0:00:25.200 You can also listen to our radio show at two 0:00:25.200 --> 0:00:27.880 pm Eastern Time on Bloomberg Radio or watch us on 0:00:27.920 --> 0:00:31.840 YouTube search Bloomberg Global News. We mentioned some of the 0:00:31.880 --> 0:00:35.680 COVID headlines about Texas dispatching people to Walmart's to get 0:00:35.720 --> 0:00:39.160 them to get vaccinations. Some sevent tim of New York 0:00:39.200 --> 0:00:41.159 City residents they have received at least one dose of 0:00:41.159 --> 0:00:44.040 the vaccine. Looking out, that's pretty good compared to where 0:00:44.080 --> 0:00:45.440 we are in the world, and of course we're in 0:00:45.440 --> 0:00:48.400 the United States. Some other numbers here globally, cases topping 0:00:48.400 --> 0:00:50.760 a hundred nine two point two million deaths exceeding four 0:00:50.800 --> 0:00:53.440 point one million. As far as vaccines look, more than 0:00:53.479 --> 0:00:56.320 three point seven one billion doses administered. Remember a lot 0:00:56.360 --> 0:01:00.000 of these vaccines required two doses. Yeah, absolutely, and everybody 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:01.320 day has been out are a lot of people, i 0:01:01.320 --> 0:01:04.640 should say, from the Biden administration out there talking about 0:01:04.680 --> 0:01:09.119 the importance of vaccinations and also understanding uh information, factual 0:01:09.160 --> 0:01:11.960 information when it comes to getting that vaccine well. Earlier 0:01:12.040 --> 0:01:14.399 this week on Monday, Dr Anthony Faucci caught up with 0:01:14.400 --> 0:01:18.720 our David Weston of Bloomberg about the rising cases and 0:01:18.880 --> 0:01:25.200 about accessing factual information. The best way to counter misinformation 0:01:25.440 --> 0:01:31.440 and disinformation is by providing a lot of correct information. 0:01:31.959 --> 0:01:34.800 And that's the reason why you have to get trusted 0:01:35.440 --> 0:01:39.840 messengers out there, the people who people in the community 0:01:40.040 --> 0:01:43.360 look to and trust. That could be a family physician 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:49.040 or a healthcare provider. A clergy person is another group 0:01:49.080 --> 0:01:53.360 of individuals that are highly respected or community leaders that 0:01:53.480 --> 0:01:57.080 people in the community look up to, much better than 0:01:57.160 --> 0:02:00.680 having government officials always doing it. And of course that's 0:02:00.760 --> 0:02:05.240 Dr Anthony Fauci, the nation's top infectious disease doctor on COVID, 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:08.200 speaking earlier this week to David Weston. Well. Joining us 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:11.960 now is Rupauli LeMay, Associate Director for Behavioral Research at 0:02:12.000 --> 0:02:15.520 the Institute for Vaccine Safety at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School 0:02:15.560 --> 0:02:18.679 of Public Health joining us on the phone from Falls Church, Virginia. 0:02:18.840 --> 0:02:21.120 The Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health is supported 0:02:21.160 --> 0:02:26.040 by Michael R. Bloomberg, founder of Bloomberg LP and Bloomberg Philanthropies. Reply, 0:02:26.120 --> 0:02:28.680 it's great to have you back on the program. My 0:02:28.760 --> 0:02:33.080 question is about getting people who haven't been vaccinated vaccinated. 0:02:33.360 --> 0:02:37.200 If you haven't been vaccinated yet, despite the availability, despite 0:02:37.200 --> 0:02:40.799 the sense that they're actually free, are you actually going 0:02:40.840 --> 0:02:43.320 to go get vaccinated? There anything that public health officials are, 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:47.560 clergy members or family members can tell you to get vaccinated. Yeah, 0:02:47.560 --> 0:02:49.440 thanks so much for having me. It's great to be back. 0:02:49.480 --> 0:02:51.680 I think a couple of things that we're seeing in 0:02:51.760 --> 0:02:55.160 terms of the proportion of folks that are unfascinated. These 0:02:55.200 --> 0:02:58.360 typically are individuals that have had hesitant fee in the 0:02:58.480 --> 0:03:01.960 past and have concerns that just haven't been addressed. And 0:03:02.000 --> 0:03:04.320 a huge issue that we are seeing with welks that 0:03:04.320 --> 0:03:08.320 are still not vascinated is really the exposure to misinformation. 0:03:08.520 --> 0:03:11.160 And a doctor of at she said, the disinformation and 0:03:11.200 --> 0:03:14.520 that's really informing I think their decision making process. What 0:03:14.600 --> 0:03:16.640 can we do? I think we have to continue to 0:03:16.720 --> 0:03:19.640 have one on one conversations with people. We need to 0:03:19.680 --> 0:03:22.400 make sure that we're empathetic when people have concerns and 0:03:22.400 --> 0:03:26.240 not be dismissive of those concerns. And really, in my mind, 0:03:26.320 --> 0:03:28.280 this is really public healthy one on one right, it's 0:03:28.280 --> 0:03:30.440 sort of having boots on the ground. It's talking to 0:03:30.520 --> 0:03:33.520 people to where to meeting them where they are, and 0:03:33.560 --> 0:03:36.440 making sure that they feel comfortable with the information that 0:03:36.480 --> 0:03:39.360 you're providing to them in a way that is accessible, 0:03:39.400 --> 0:03:42.800 that's understandable, and that is trustful. Well, you know, I 0:03:42.800 --> 0:03:46.360 think part of the problem is to that general public 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:52.200 doesn't always maybe trust government or trust big pharma, And 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:55.800 so it's I guess a feeling of everybody's kind of 0:03:55.800 --> 0:03:58.160 talking their book, and I guess how do we get 0:03:58.200 --> 0:04:00.960 to a point where it isn't about that, it's about 0:04:00.960 --> 0:04:03.920 their science behind things. And so you know, where do 0:04:04.000 --> 0:04:09.040 we go? Where does someone go um to really get 0:04:09.080 --> 0:04:11.440 the truth about something? Right? I mean, we're so also 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:13.640 quick when we've got an ailment right to go online 0:04:13.640 --> 0:04:17.120 and google and and read about things, But there are 0:04:17.160 --> 0:04:19.760 sources that are better than others. What's your advice to 0:04:19.800 --> 0:04:22.279 the general public? And I agree that going to health 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:25.200 providers that you trust. Um, what else would you suggest? 0:04:26.320 --> 0:04:28.200 I think you make a really good point. There has 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:31.040 been a decline in trust in the healthcare system here 0:04:31.040 --> 0:04:33.640 in the United States, and we saw this free COVID 0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:36.080 and then I think it has continued to decline, and 0:04:36.120 --> 0:04:39.360 I think that has been exacerbated by social media. One 0:04:39.400 --> 0:04:41.760 thing to think about is that the person that you 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:45.320 trust the most with regards to information about vaccines might 0:04:45.360 --> 0:04:47.719 not be a health care provider. And a lot of 0:04:47.720 --> 0:04:51.760 states have done an excellent job leveraging these different trusted voices, 0:04:51.800 --> 0:04:57.040 if you will, such as clergy for example, civic leaders, teachers, um. 0:04:57.080 --> 0:04:59.360 And so I think it's not just about you know, 0:04:59.560 --> 0:05:03.120 going you if you trust your healthcare provider, definitely, but 0:05:03.200 --> 0:05:05.600 it seems like people that are hesitant tend to not 0:05:05.680 --> 0:05:07.719 trust their health care provider. And so I think the 0:05:07.839 --> 0:05:10.680 key here is leveraging some of these other voices to 0:05:10.760 --> 0:05:13.080 really come forward and talk about their experience with a 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:16.760 vaccine and you know, a recommendation as to whether or 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:19.239 not they have gotten a vaccine and why their folks 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:21.479 and people that they know should get the vaccine. I 0:05:21.480 --> 0:05:24.080 think that is the other piece to all of this 0:05:24.160 --> 0:05:25.599 is that I think it's going to take a long 0:05:25.640 --> 0:05:27.800 time to rebuild this trust. I think part of the 0:05:27.839 --> 0:05:30.560 issue with all of this is that recommendations to have 0:05:30.640 --> 0:05:33.320 changed over time to keep up with the science. From 0:05:33.360 --> 0:05:35.960 a public health perspective, that means that science is working 0:05:36.000 --> 0:05:38.760 in public health is working. The public may not see 0:05:38.760 --> 0:05:41.159 it like that, right, They see it as like a 0:05:41.200 --> 0:05:44.400 flip flop, right exactly, And so that has also led 0:05:44.440 --> 0:05:47.599 to even I think more distrust of the health care 0:05:47.600 --> 0:05:51.120 system in the CDC um and generally public health in general. 0:05:51.480 --> 0:05:53.400 So I think the other piece of all of this 0:05:53.640 --> 0:05:55.680 is how do we explain to folks that, you know, 0:05:55.760 --> 0:05:57.920 we're just trying to follow the science. And then that's 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:01.039 coupled with this whole rise of anti science, and I 0:06:01.080 --> 0:06:05.200 think a number of outlets and I won't name them, 0:06:05.240 --> 0:06:08.560 are really sewing information that's not correct and that I 0:06:08.600 --> 0:06:12.400 think fuel this anti science sentiment that we have seen increased, 0:06:12.600 --> 0:06:16.640 especially over the last year related to cod behavioral research. 0:06:16.920 --> 0:06:21.520 This understanding people is not easy, but fortunately Rupoli's that's 0:06:21.520 --> 0:06:25.760 what that's what POLLI does. I'm wondering about really effective 0:06:25.800 --> 0:06:29.159 ways beyond clergy. I mean, I'm thinking, like, are we 0:06:29.240 --> 0:06:32.640 to a point where we're going to be seeing people 0:06:33.000 --> 0:06:36.440 officials go door to door to actually provide vaccines to 0:06:36.480 --> 0:06:40.920 those who haven't gotten them yet. RUPOLLI. Yeah, there there 0:06:40.920 --> 0:06:43.360 are many different approaches that have been tested in trude 0:06:43.480 --> 0:06:46.440 within individuals that are vaccine hesitant and have been able 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:49.279 to nudge the needle, if you will, right towards vaccination. 0:06:49.600 --> 0:06:53.280 So some of those are things using presumptive communication. One 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:55.760 thing I think people forget from a behavioral perspective is 0:06:55.760 --> 0:06:58.640 that getting the vaccine is the norm. It's not an anomaly. 0:06:59.040 --> 0:07:01.000 And so I think you love veraging the power of 0:07:01.000 --> 0:07:03.719 that and essentially saying that you know what everyone around 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:06.320 you is getting the vaccine everyone has gotten. Is that 0:07:06.440 --> 0:07:08.560 Is that the case though? Sorry to interrupted that the 0:07:08.600 --> 0:07:11.680 case in in all communities? Are there some communities where 0:07:11.680 --> 0:07:14.720 that's still you're sort of the outlier if you do 0:07:14.800 --> 0:07:17.440 get the vaccine, it's not And I think part of 0:07:17.440 --> 0:07:19.280 the issue though, if you think about this from a 0:07:19.360 --> 0:07:22.880 national standpoint, we are doing relatively well. The issue that 0:07:22.920 --> 0:07:25.760 we're seeing in the reasons that we're seeing continuing outbreaks 0:07:26.160 --> 0:07:28.520 is because we have those pockets right, so it's not 0:07:28.560 --> 0:07:31.840 evenly distributed with regards to vaccine coverage. So from a 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:35.000 behavioral perspective, though it's very important to talk about this 0:07:35.080 --> 0:07:37.560 from the normative and say, essentially, you know, folks in 0:07:37.560 --> 0:07:39.679 the United States, if we look at our overall numbers, 0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:42.240 we're doing really well. But the reasons that we are 0:07:42.240 --> 0:07:46.160 seeing outbreaks because it is uneven and so within these pockets, 0:07:46.200 --> 0:07:49.120 I think, you know, social norms are very, very, very important. Right, 0:07:49.160 --> 0:07:51.000 So if you think about these pockets, and the reason 0:07:51.040 --> 0:07:54.360 it's not homogeneous and there is so much heterogeneity within 0:07:54.400 --> 0:07:58.160 these different communities is because norms are very powerful. People 0:07:58.200 --> 0:08:01.120 are using their social networks Terman, whether or not they 0:08:01.120 --> 0:08:03.600 want to get the vaccine. That social network can be 0:08:03.720 --> 0:08:06.400 through social media, right, which is a huge issue because 0:08:06.400 --> 0:08:09.600 of all the misinformation. But we're also seeing is that 0:08:09.680 --> 0:08:13.000 there has been a strong polarization relative to vaccine attitude. 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:15.600 Meaning if you are pro vaccine and if you get 0:08:15.600 --> 0:08:18.880 the vaccine, it's very it's not likely that you're hanging 0:08:18.880 --> 0:08:21.560 out with friends in your close social network that aren't 0:08:21.560 --> 0:08:24.040 getting the vaccine. The issue with that is that means 0:08:24.040 --> 0:08:27.320 that you're essentially hearing what you're leading to an echo chamber, right, 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:29.960 You're talking to people that have the same type right, 0:08:30.000 --> 0:08:31.840 and have the same type of attitude, what you do 0:08:31.840 --> 0:08:34.320 you know, it's sorry, go ahead? No? No? No? You finished? Please? 0:08:34.360 --> 0:08:37.200 Please please sorry no? And I think no, it's okay. 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:39.320 I think in terms of the clergy piece and yeah, 0:08:39.360 --> 0:08:41.360 and going door to door, I think that is an option. 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:44.000 But I do think that the social network piece is 0:08:44.080 --> 0:08:47.959 more prevalent and more persuasive with regards to changing behavior 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:50.640 in this context. And so it's important to identify opinion 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:54.560 leaders within these clusters that are unvaccinated that might be 0:08:54.640 --> 0:08:58.080 willing and open to get vaccinated and have them really 0:08:58.160 --> 0:09:00.760 serve as the spokesperson and to say this is what 0:09:00.840 --> 0:09:03.360 I decided, this is why I made this decision, This 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:05.319 is why I first didn't want to get the vaccine, 0:09:05.320 --> 0:09:07.080 but then I decided to get the vaccine. Because what 0:09:07.120 --> 0:09:10.520 we are hearing, especially from qualeagues that are frontline workers, 0:09:10.640 --> 0:09:14.240 is that as people are putting back unfortunately on ventilators 0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:17.600 or in ICU, they are then begging for the vaccine. Right, 0:09:17.640 --> 0:09:20.640 So it's sort of retrospective, like I really wish I 0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:23.040 would have gotten it um. And so I think there 0:09:23.120 --> 0:09:24.760 is a way in which we can leverage really that 0:09:24.840 --> 0:09:28.400 power of social networks and really opinion leaders within these 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:32.200 social networks that might be not only well regarded, but 0:09:32.360 --> 0:09:36.880 might also have influence over those that are unvaccinated. Probably 0:09:36.920 --> 0:09:39.000 what's interesting too, is I think about the things that 0:09:39.040 --> 0:09:40.840 we all do, or if I went to a doctor 0:09:40.840 --> 0:09:43.319 and gave me a prescription, I would probably not look 0:09:43.400 --> 0:09:45.480 up that prescription and look at the science because it 0:09:45.520 --> 0:09:47.160 came from a doctor. Because it came from a doctor, 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:49.040 I would just do it. Like think about the things 0:09:49.080 --> 0:09:53.319 we eat, the things we use cosmetics or consumer products, 0:09:53.360 --> 0:09:56.040 and we don't even who you know, not everybody looks 0:09:56.040 --> 0:09:58.000 at the ingredients, you know what I mean. There's a 0:09:58.000 --> 0:10:00.240 lot of stuff that we just do it. What is 0:10:00.280 --> 0:10:03.080 it about? This? Is it because it became so politicized 0:10:03.080 --> 0:10:07.080 And forgive me, because we've only got about thirty seconds left. Sorry, 0:10:07.160 --> 0:10:09.400 I'll make it sure. I think it's a couple of things. 0:10:09.440 --> 0:10:12.840 I think one's under an emergency youth authorization, So I 0:10:12.880 --> 0:10:15.280 think there is concerned that it was developed very quickly, 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:18.079 even though no corners were cut with purs because that's 0:10:18.160 --> 0:10:21.240 one too. It's become very polarized because the administration, there 0:10:21.240 --> 0:10:23.720 was an administration change. There was a lot of blame 0:10:23.880 --> 0:10:26.040 with regards to the rollout in the process. And I 0:10:26.120 --> 0:10:28.400 think three the issue is that social media has played 0:10:28.440 --> 0:10:31.880 a huge role in this with regards to against polarizing people. Further, 0:10:32.240 --> 0:10:34.160 that might have been open to the idea of vaccines, 0:10:34.240 --> 0:10:36.280 but now we've essentially put them in echo chambers and 0:10:36.320 --> 0:10:38.800 people are now just kind of, you know, in their 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:41.640 own little infolo world. If you will, I would love 0:10:41.679 --> 0:10:44.720 to talk to you on another at some point about 0:10:45.200 --> 0:10:48.439 social media and behavior, you know, the impact it's had 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:50.520 on us as a society, because I can I bet 0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:52.400 you have some interesting perspective, So you have to come 0:10:52.400 --> 0:10:55.160 back at another time and talk about that. Rue Poli, 0:10:55.240 --> 0:10:57.680 Thank you so much to Polly LeMay. She's Assassiate Director 0:10:57.720 --> 0:11:00.360 for Behavioral Research at the Nstitute for Vaccine in Safety 0:11:00.360 --> 0:11:02.439 at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, of course, 0:11:02.440 --> 0:11:06.280 supported by Michael R. Bloomberg. You're listening to Bloomberg Business 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:10.199 Week with Carol Messer and Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stinovic 0:11:10.640 --> 0:11:13.920 on Bloomberg Radio. When for a president Donald Trump demanded 0:11:13.960 --> 0:11:17.079 a big, beautiful wall be built along the US southern border, 0:11:17.440 --> 0:11:19.880 a guy from North Dakota, Tim spent millions to build 0:11:19.920 --> 0:11:22.959 a three mile stretch on the Rio Grand and now 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:25.240 he's kind of in a funny situation. Yeah, he's spent 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:28.120 a lot of money doing it and hasn't gotten paid yet. 0:11:28.360 --> 0:11:31.040 It's the cover of this week's Bloomberg Business Week. Joining 0:11:31.120 --> 0:11:33.600 us now is Joel Webber, editor at Bloomberg Business Week. 0:11:33.760 --> 0:11:36.480 He joins us on the remote access line. Jeremy keene 0:11:36.760 --> 0:11:39.200 is Features editor for Bloomberg Business Week, on the phone 0:11:39.520 --> 0:11:42.800 from New York City. Joel, Uh, this is a wild, 0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:47.800 wild story. It involves Steve Bannon, uh, some legal issues 0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:52.079 as well. First of all, who is Tommy Fisher? So 0:11:52.559 --> 0:11:57.319 Tommy Fisher is a builder, and the story really is 0:11:57.559 --> 0:12:00.840 an amazing one, uh, in part because it just shows 0:12:01.000 --> 0:12:06.000 this entrepreneurial spirit that that Tommy Fisher has. Um. He 0:12:06.679 --> 0:12:10.720 has basically managed to build three miles of wall um 0:12:11.640 --> 0:12:15.319 in one project. He also had another project, uh that 0:12:15.720 --> 0:12:19.280 that's longer. But the three million, the three mile one, 0:12:19.400 --> 0:12:22.280 which he spent thirty million dollars his own money on, 0:12:23.200 --> 0:12:26.599 is the one that the story really centers on. And 0:12:26.880 --> 0:12:30.360 he basically did it, and you know it's on spec 0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:33.280 and that's the part that sort of amazes me. And 0:12:33.400 --> 0:12:36.319 I'll bring Jeremy in on that, Like, Jeremy, like, what 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:40.320 possessed someone to build a three mile, thirty million dollar 0:12:40.400 --> 0:12:44.079 wall on spec Yeah, I mean Tommy Fisher is like, 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:47.559 that's in North Dakota originally, and he, you know, he's 0:12:47.640 --> 0:12:50.199 long dreamed of building an epic piece of infrastructure and 0:12:51.360 --> 0:12:54.360 he's built I believe one of the longest cathedral large 0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:57.960 bridges out there. Um And but you know, that didn't 0:12:57.960 --> 0:12:59.560 really bring him the kind of renown he was after. 0:12:59.679 --> 0:13:02.160 So you know, when Trump started talking about a wall, 0:13:02.640 --> 0:13:04.960 he got him full fun. Fisher got himself on Fox 0:13:05.040 --> 0:13:07.360 News and kind of got his name out there and 0:13:07.600 --> 0:13:11.800 ended up hooking up with Steve Bannon and Brian Cole 0:13:11.880 --> 0:13:16.880 flags We Build the Wall organization. They built one quick, 0:13:17.280 --> 0:13:21.319 small wall and then came to this project and just 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:23.160 as the money was starting to come in for it, 0:13:24.000 --> 0:13:26.959 Mr Bannon and Mr Caulflage run into some legal issues 0:13:27.160 --> 0:13:30.400 that you know around that around that same year that 0:13:31.480 --> 0:13:33.920 fort To scuttled the project. So Fisher said, well, I'm 0:13:33.960 --> 0:13:37.079 gonna keep doing the wall and struct him deals with 0:13:37.120 --> 0:13:39.840 Texas landovers put what he says is thirty million bucks 0:13:39.880 --> 0:13:43.040 into it, and off he went, Yeah, it's I feel 0:13:43.080 --> 0:13:45.720 like this is a story to some extent of a wall, 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:49.480 a builder, a radio host, the journalist. Like I love 0:13:49.520 --> 0:13:54.200 the way he's told and how it unfolds. Um, what's 0:13:54.440 --> 0:13:55.959 you know? I always wonder about the pitch that you 0:13:56.040 --> 0:13:59.880 guys got for this story. Um, Joel, what can you 0:14:00.000 --> 0:14:01.880 tell us about? I mean, obviously we've all been obsessed 0:14:01.920 --> 0:14:04.120 with this ball. We know the President was obsessed with 0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:06.520 this wall. I think we were all a little surprised 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:08.240 that there was to find that there was some that 0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:10.040 was built. But then you've got this guy who wants 0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:12.920 to like sell it. You know. I think that the 0:14:13.040 --> 0:14:16.800 element um that really drew us in, uh when when 0:14:16.920 --> 0:14:20.920 Simon um pitched it to us, is this idea that 0:14:21.040 --> 0:14:23.680 I mean, I did not know that Tommy Fisher existed. 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:26.920 I didn't know that he had built a wall, you know, 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:30.960 like you know literally and like the feat that he 0:14:31.160 --> 0:14:33.960 was able to accomplish here worked is worth discussing a 0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:36.560 little bit, which is, you know, there's plenty of wall 0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:40.640 that's already been built, and President Trump rebuilt a lot 0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:44.880 of existing wall. What what he What Fisher's accomplished here 0:14:45.280 --> 0:14:49.200 was to actually put three miles of wall on private 0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:52.760 land in Texas, which is really this is along the 0:14:52.880 --> 0:14:55.320 Rio Grand which will probably talk about a little bit 0:14:55.360 --> 0:14:59.040 more here in a second. In doing so and accomplishing 0:14:59.080 --> 0:15:03.000 this on private land, that has always been the thing 0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:04.960 that sort of anybody who wanted to build a wall 0:15:05.400 --> 0:15:07.600 couldn't quite figure out a way to do it. And 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:09.560 so the fact that he was able to crack it, 0:15:10.360 --> 0:15:14.440 um is why I think as he got you know, 0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:16.360 part of his pitch here is and I think he's 0:15:16.400 --> 0:15:18.360 looking at the state of Texas at this point because 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:20.680 Governor Abbott there is seems to be the one who's 0:15:20.720 --> 0:15:25.160 willing to probably do something um. But but the fact 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:27.520 that he was able to do this on private land 0:15:28.080 --> 0:15:31.200 and on a river is sort of I think there's 0:15:31.360 --> 0:15:33.920 a little bit more discussion, and Jerry want why don't 0:15:33.920 --> 0:15:36.120 you talk about that, because the fact that he was 0:15:36.200 --> 0:15:38.040 able to do this so close to the river is 0:15:38.080 --> 0:15:43.280 actually like where a lot of the controversy stems from. Right. So, 0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:47.000 you know, Simon was curious about this part. You don't 0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:50.360 really began with his curiosity about all this talk about 0:15:50.400 --> 0:15:52.600 walls and whether they work and that kind of thing. 0:15:52.720 --> 0:15:54.720 And so he went down there and got the Big 0:15:54.840 --> 0:15:56.800 four and you know, one of the things he drove 0:15:56.840 --> 0:16:00.400 around with some of some of fisher subcontract actors. The 0:16:00.520 --> 0:16:04.560 Fisher talked to some next border agents, talked to residents, 0:16:05.240 --> 0:16:09.000 talk to people who really opposed the wall, and um, 0:16:09.240 --> 0:16:11.200 you know, one of the things that's really unusual about 0:16:11.240 --> 0:16:13.920 it is where there's federal wall in Texas, it tends 0:16:13.960 --> 0:16:16.320 to be built quite a ways away from the actual border. 0:16:16.360 --> 0:16:18.280 There the Rio Grand and the Rio Grand Valley, and 0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:22.360 that's because it's privately held land. Fisher struck all these 0:16:22.400 --> 0:16:25.640 deals with private landowners, managed to build the wall where 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:28.320 there's only you know, a few hundred feet or something 0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:31.720 like that separating the wall from the actual border. And 0:16:31.800 --> 0:16:33.920 that you know, the border patrol guys sort of say 0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:35.920 that's made it a little easier to patrol that one 0:16:36.160 --> 0:16:39.600 three mile stretch. Um. As the cover shows you, you know, 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:42.280 you can literally walk around it if once you reach 0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:47.160 the end of it. Um. But um, you know that. 0:16:47.360 --> 0:16:49.960 What what ended up happening though, is you know, uh, 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:53.600 Fisher got sued lawsuits that these that he's contesting, um, 0:16:53.840 --> 0:16:57.360 the National Butterfly Center, who you know, sort of claiming 0:16:57.440 --> 0:16:59.760 that um, that that there was going to be sort 0:16:59.760 --> 0:17:04.000 of mental damage caused by flooding. Um if you know, 0:17:04.080 --> 0:17:05.960 in the event of heavy rain. Because of the way 0:17:05.960 --> 0:17:10.040 the wall was built. Um and uh, the US government 0:17:10.080 --> 0:17:14.280 actually ironically launched a suit, the Boundary and Water Commission, 0:17:15.000 --> 0:17:19.800 because it argued that that it's illegal to actually move 0:17:20.280 --> 0:17:23.440 the border in a physical sense, and they argued that 0:17:23.520 --> 0:17:26.919 the wall itself could displace the borderline because the river 0:17:27.040 --> 0:17:29.960 would get, would get the banks would change like that 0:17:30.119 --> 0:17:33.600 kind of thing. And so, um, yeah, it's created. I mean, 0:17:34.160 --> 0:17:35.640 you know, there's a lot of controversy over that. There's 0:17:35.640 --> 0:17:38.960 controversy over whether it's actually going to accomplish the thing 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:42.320 that you know, all the pass governments have tried to 0:17:42.359 --> 0:17:45.760 accomplish and building border wall elsewhere. Hey, Jeremy, where does 0:17:46.160 --> 0:17:48.440 Steve Bannon come into all of this? And the foundation 0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:52.399 that he started with brand Cole Fedge, Right, so we 0:17:52.520 --> 0:17:55.560 built the wall. They were these guys who basically were 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:57.359 just like, well, you know, it's so hard to get 0:17:57.400 --> 0:18:01.120 it all done federally, then then just get down there 0:18:01.119 --> 0:18:03.119 and funded and they got they got people to fund it. 0:18:03.200 --> 0:18:06.120 You know, I think Simon puts it that it's ordinary 0:18:06.200 --> 0:18:11.040 cable news watching types, and you know, they they got donations, 0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:16.640 um based on um just based on this call through 0:18:16.920 --> 0:18:20.640 Fox News and that kind of thing. Um. But then 0:18:20.920 --> 0:18:24.840 in August um the US, the Turns Office and some 0:18:25.080 --> 0:18:28.080 just New York indicted Ben and a couple of other 0:18:28.160 --> 0:18:30.880 figures from the group, saying that they had enriched themselves 0:18:31.040 --> 0:18:35.080 with with money that they stored donors for the wall constructed. 0:18:35.160 --> 0:18:36.959 And so that's where Fisher kind of picked it up, 0:18:37.000 --> 0:18:40.040 and you know what ended up happenings and the other defendants. 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:43.119 We did not guilty, Ben and had we did not guilty, 0:18:43.119 --> 0:18:48.520 and then he got this pardon from that. Well, there 0:18:48.640 --> 0:18:51.040 is a lot to this story, including you'll learn about 0:18:51.080 --> 0:18:54.200 form and Mike was kicked off the site. But you're 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:56.879 gonna have to read the story. Check it out in 0:18:56.960 --> 0:18:59.959 the new issue of Bloomberg business Week Magazines, also online 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:03.320 on the Bloomberg terminal our thanks to Jeremy Keen, Features editor, 0:19:03.440 --> 0:19:05.600 Bloomberg Business Week on the phone in New York, kill Webber, 0:19:05.640 --> 0:19:08.800 our editor here at Bloomberg Business Week on the access 0:19:08.880 --> 0:19:11.600 line in Brooklyn. It's not actually a wall to its offense. 0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:15.000 It's offense, but there's so yeah, so boarder agents can 0:19:15.000 --> 0:19:16.399 actually see through it and see what's going on the 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:19.280 other side exactly. All right, you're listening to Bloomberg Business Week. 0:19:19.280 --> 0:19:23.600 Call Master Tim Stanovic. This is Bloomberg. This is Bloomberg 0:19:23.680 --> 0:19:27.280 Business Week with Carol Masser and Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim 0:19:27.400 --> 0:19:31.520 Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio. As we mentioned earlier, a wait 0:19:31.600 --> 0:19:33.400 what moment for us all today? As a chip bell 0:19:33.480 --> 0:19:36.720 Weather this week warned about semi demand peaking. Yes, you 0:19:36.840 --> 0:19:40.200 heard it right, and it's the wait what is because Tim, 0:19:40.240 --> 0:19:42.720 we've been talking so much about chips shortages, right, and 0:19:42.800 --> 0:19:47.240 chip shortage is affecting everything from cars to refrigerator smartphones. Yeah, 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:49.359 so let's get into it making sense of it all, 0:19:49.400 --> 0:19:50.960 as he always does for us when it comes to 0:19:51.119 --> 0:19:54.320 anything on the semi conductor industry. In King he is 0:19:54.440 --> 0:19:57.679 u S semi Conductor and Networking reporter here at Bloomberg News. Uh, 0:19:57.760 --> 0:20:00.840 and he is in our San Francisco Up. You're in 0:20:01.480 --> 0:20:08.200 help get us some chips we have and you understand 0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:10.640 the cycle. So what's going on here? Yeah? I mean 0:20:10.680 --> 0:20:15.080 the underlining, the underlying concern is the issue here today. 0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:18.520 That's why Texas Instrument stock is down more than five percent. 0:20:18.680 --> 0:20:22.040 That's why the Philadelphia semi Conductor index is down and 0:20:22.160 --> 0:20:24.640 it's not a case of all things went terribly wrong. 0:20:24.720 --> 0:20:27.200 T I did not say that. What they didn't do 0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:29.960 was come out and some their chest and talk about 0:20:30.280 --> 0:20:34.600 a path of things getting more wonderful. What analysts and 0:20:34.640 --> 0:20:36.879 investors look for is when a company like t I 0:20:37.440 --> 0:20:41.520 post revenue increase in the quarter, is this the peak? 0:20:41.640 --> 0:20:43.200 Is this? It is this as good as it gets? 0:20:43.800 --> 0:20:46.200 And they pested and pested t I about this, and 0:20:46.320 --> 0:20:48.119 t I were like, look, it is what it is. 0:20:48.600 --> 0:20:50.560 You know, we're not going to help you out here 0:20:50.600 --> 0:20:51.880 one way or the other. We're just going to run 0:20:51.920 --> 0:20:55.800 our company as best we can. And the numbers that 0:20:55.880 --> 0:20:58.840