Speaker 1: It's the big take from Bloomberg News and iHeart Radio.
Speaker 1: I'm West Caasoba today. Green bonds. They're selling billions of
Speaker 1: dollars worth of them, but just how green are they really?
Speaker 1: It sounds like a noble enough IDEA company, or maybe
Speaker 1: a government needs money to pay for a big solar
Speaker 1: power project, or to replace dirty diesel school buses with
Speaker 1: electric ones, so they issue what's called a green bond.
Speaker 1: Green bonds worked like any other bond. Investors buy them
Speaker 1: to finance a project. The investors are paid back with interest,
Speaker 1: and they get to feel good about themselves for putting
Speaker 1: their money into a cleaner future. The increasing demand for
Speaker 1: this kind of ethical investing has led to an explosion
Speaker 1: in the number of green bonds of every description. The
Speaker 1: thing is, it's not always easy to tell if projects
Speaker 1: described as green really are or if it's just clever marketing.
Speaker 1: That's what we're digging into today, and we'll start with
Speaker 1: the basics. My colleague Aaron Rutcoff joins me now he
Speaker 1: oversees climate and environmental coverage at Bloomberg Green. Aaron, thanks
Speaker 1: for coming on the show, Thanks for having me with
Speaker 1: what is a green bond? Green bond is you're borrowing money,
Speaker 1: you're taking on debt, and you're spending that money on
Speaker 1: an explicitly pro climate, pro environmental energy transition oriented project.
Speaker 1: And who's issuing these bonds, Like who's borrowing and who's
Speaker 1: looking for this money? You could be a sovereign government,
Speaker 1: so you know, you could be the government of India
Speaker 1: who just entered the green bond market for the first time,
Speaker 1: and you're trying to use this money on you know,
Speaker 1: big infrastructure projects on solar farms. Controversially, you could be
Speaker 1: a fossil fuel company and you're trying to lower the
Speaker 1: emissions with some of your refineries, or you could be
Speaker 1: trying to build renewable energy infrastructure for a big company
Speaker 1: that's trying to put solar panels on the roof of
Speaker 1: its warehouses. All of that would follow every bonds. So
Speaker 1: you're issuing these bonds, you're saying, hey, buy these bonds,
Speaker 1: you'll get a return on them, and the money is
Speaker 1: going to be used for good right right, And it
Speaker 1: has to have dedicated green purpose. It can't just be
Speaker 1: an all purpose debt instrument to raise money for your company.
Speaker 1: It's got to be or your government. It's got to
Speaker 1: be going directly to some explicitly named green project. And
Speaker 1: so that's the difference between say a green and in
Speaker 1: regular bond because governments and companies they issue bonds all
Speaker 1: the time to pay for projects, and the deal is sure,
Speaker 1: you give us the money and you'll get a return, right.
Speaker 1: And I think one of the reasons why green bonds
Speaker 1: are appealing is because people who might invest in your
Speaker 1: debt can be the people who just like your government
Speaker 1: or your company as an investment, right, like your normal
Speaker 1: people who would be interested in such a thing. But
Speaker 1: you also open up a whole wider world of people
Speaker 1: that are interested in marketing themselves as having invested in
Speaker 1: e s G. E s G is environmental, social and
Speaker 1: governance criteria for investing. It's hugely popular now in addition
Speaker 1: to everyone else who might have previously been interested in
Speaker 1: your debt, you now have e s G investors. These
Speaker 1: green bands have become very popular. How big is the
Speaker 1: worldwide green bond market right now? So, uh, it's only
Speaker 1: been around since two thousand seven. So if you want
Speaker 1: to go lifetime two thousand seven and now you're at
Speaker 1: three point eight trillion dollars, And if you want to
Speaker 1: look at a more recent According to Bloomberg, in e
Speaker 1: F in the first half of this year there was
Speaker 1: four and ninety two billion dollars and and every month,
Speaker 1: you know, it goes up and down, but you're seeing
Speaker 1: tens of billions of dollars of new green bond activity.
Speaker 1: You know in any given month right now? Is there
Speaker 1: any standard that you have to meet for a green band,
Speaker 1: like you have to fulfill these requirements or can anyone
Speaker 1: just claim that their bond is green? So wes If
Speaker 1: you want to do a green bond in Europe, there
Speaker 1: are standards there. Europe was the first one to go
Speaker 1: into green bonds in a big way. There's still the
Speaker 1: biggest market for it, and they're the furthest along in regulations,
Speaker 1: so they're in the process of adopting very clearly defined
Speaker 1: standards and most of the time those standards are being
Speaker 1: observed right now, even if they don't have the full
Speaker 1: force of law because they're not finalized yet. But if
Speaker 1: you're doing it in the US, it's gonna be like
Speaker 1: so many climate things under a voluntary standards, So there's
Speaker 1: a standard setting body you're supposed to be complying with
Speaker 1: their rules and there's certain you know, processes, like your
Speaker 1: most bonds, you don't have to report on the activity
Speaker 1: that's going into the bonds. Like if you're doing standard
Speaker 1: corporate debt, you don't have to do any special reporting
Speaker 1: to meet that bond criteria going forward. But with green bonds,
Speaker 1: under the voluntary standards in the US, you're gonna be
Speaker 1: making statements about, you know, how's that hydro electric project going,
Speaker 1: or how's that battery project that you took the bond
Speaker 1: out for. And that makes it easier for people like
Speaker 1: a journalist to look into what's happening. But you know,
Speaker 1: in the U s, if you want to know what's
Speaker 1: truly happening in a green bond, you know you're gonna
Speaker 1: need to look into it. A regulator that's going to
Speaker 1: come in and penalize you if you're if you're not
Speaker 1: following the rule. I imagine you spend a lot of
Speaker 1: time with the Bloom Green team trying to find out
Speaker 1: whether these projects are green. Do you find a lot
Speaker 1: of them that claim to be that aren't. Yes, Yes,
Speaker 1: there was recently some work we were doing looking at
Speaker 1: data centers in the US as a particular user of
Speaker 1: green bond Now I'm not the standard setting body by
Speaker 1: any means, and I certainly wouldn't be making like a
Speaker 1: one size all decree here. But data centers produce a
Speaker 1: lot of emissions, and so it's not obvious if you're
Speaker 1: just looking at it on the service that that would
Speaker 1: be the greenest of all possible investments. Are the results
Speaker 1: being seen from all this money being spent? So, like,
Speaker 1: can you measure it in the atmosphere in terms of
Speaker 1: like is carbon dioxide going down because we have green bonds?
Speaker 1: I think there's been a lot of capital that's moved
Speaker 1: into green projects in a way that you know, a
Speaker 1: good amount of it is is positive. It's brought a
Speaker 1: lot of finance into renewable energy. Now there's an economic
Speaker 1: basis for renewable energy in a way there wasn't before.
Speaker 1: The cost of building solar or wind is often going
Speaker 1: to be the cheapest new source of energy anywhere that
Speaker 1: you go. So if the question is, like our green
Speaker 1: bonds transforming the planet so that it's much more sustainable,
Speaker 1: is it going to the places that are the hardest
Speaker 1: city carbonize and bringing a lot of money in, I
Speaker 1: think they're The answer is a little more difficult to
Speaker 1: see guidelines on really what is a green bond and
Speaker 1: what is not, so that you don't just slap that
Speaker 1: label on for a good look. We tend to see
Speaker 1: a lot of green bond activity going into things that
Speaker 1: are already very safe and established, and what you're not
Speaker 1: seeing is green bonds as a way to say, decarbonize
Speaker 1: the Asian industry or some other kind of heavy industry
Speaker 1: that's really difficult right now to solve where we really
Speaker 1: do need more capital to bring about climate solutions. So
Speaker 1: right now you're seeing a lot of it go to
Speaker 1: things that are already very successful and maybe not as
Speaker 1: much going into the big innovations that we need for
Speaker 1: like the next step of decarbonization. I hear this phrase
Speaker 1: greenwashing a lot when it comes to green bonds. What
Speaker 1: is greenwashing? Greenwashing is just making a claim of climate
Speaker 1: impact or de harbonization or environmental positivity that's really a
Speaker 1: mask for business as usual or a practice that isn't
Speaker 1: helping very much. Do you see a lot of greenwashing
Speaker 1: in green bonds? Yes, I mean you can very easily
Speaker 1: find projects that don't seem to really map onto a
Speaker 1: very effective or measurable decarbonization. Drawing green bonds. You can
Speaker 1: find things where the money is going to places that
Speaker 1: aren't positive at all, that might be negative. I mean
Speaker 1: that the example of a data center drawing green bonds,
Speaker 1: You're gonna have a lot of questions, so you're gonna
Speaker 1: want to ask about that project. There are fossil fuel
Speaker 1: companies that are drawing green bonds while they're still building
Speaker 1: new fossil fuel resources. You know, still the green bond
Speaker 1: might not be going to that, but it's going to
Speaker 1: the same company that's also expanding it's fossil fuel. You're
Speaker 1: going to have a lot of questions you're gonna want
Speaker 1: to ask. And in the world where in right now
Speaker 1: you're going to have to really look closely at each
Speaker 1: project before you you can feel absolutely certain that it's
Speaker 1: not connected to green washing. Therein Rudcoff, thanks for coming
Speaker 1: on the show. Thanks for having me. West one country
Speaker 1: putting that green label on all kinds of projects China.
Speaker 1: We talk about that after the break. Rebecca Jung Willins
Speaker 1: joins me now. She is a government reporter for Bloomberg
Speaker 1: based in Hong Kong. Rebecca, you and our colleagues Caroline Khan,
Speaker 1: Shirley and Adrian Lung have written this big story taking
Speaker 1: a look at China's green bands and where that money
Speaker 1: is really going. That's not always an easy thing to
Speaker 1: find out, is it. China has built one of the
Speaker 1: world's biggest screen bond markets. It's raised more than three
Speaker 1: hundred billion since twenty fifteen, and it's really sort of
Speaker 1: focused on trying to rain in some of the environmental
Speaker 1: problems in China. But like many parts of the world
Speaker 1: that have tried to develop these sort of queen financing markets,
Speaker 1: that have been real concerns about disclosure and gaps and
Speaker 1: issues with transparency. So they built a three hundred billion
Speaker 1: dollar green band market in really just seven years, and
Speaker 1: it's central because President ju and Ping has made this
Speaker 1: a very important part of China's sort of green energy transition.
Speaker 1: Is that right? Absolutely? So, China's sort of green ambitions
Speaker 1: have been a central part of Season Ping's policy. He's
Speaker 1: placed at the heart of a lot of what the
Speaker 1: central government has sought to do over the past decade,
Speaker 1: and he's really done more than any other leader. He
Speaker 1: said to be a true believer in the environmental cause,
Speaker 1: and a lot of that initially focused on trying to
Speaker 1: curb really excessive pollution in many of China's megacities. She's
Speaker 1: Pink's ambitions for China's environmental policies sort of continue to
Speaker 1: be dominated by phrases that he has, including this one
Speaker 1: that mountain and river green are mountains of silver and gold,
Speaker 1: and that's not going to be cheap. And the reason
Speaker 1: why they're issuing these bands in part is because by
Speaker 1: their own estimates, it's going to cost just like an
Speaker 1: astronomical amount of money. Absolutely as so, by their own projections,
Speaker 1: it could cost upwards of eighteen trillion US dollars to
Speaker 1: fund this green transition. So it is an immense amount
Speaker 1: of money, and in that context, China's green bond market
Speaker 1: so far is just a small sliver of that. So
Speaker 1: you looked at a bunch of different, big, ambitious projects
Speaker 1: that some of these green bands are going to fund.
Speaker 1: In your question was how green are they? What are
Speaker 1: some of these projects? So one of the interesting projects
Speaker 1: that we looked at was this Herbey Iron and Steel company,
Speaker 1: and it was initially intended this bond to sort of
Speaker 1: help with pollution provincial and control, but it was actually
Speaker 1: in part used to fund the relocation of a factory
Speaker 1: that had already happened, so the factory was moved from
Speaker 1: Herbe's provincial capital, and residents there were of course pleased
Speaker 1: um and said it had helped with pollution. But the issue,
Speaker 1: I think is that the plant's new neighbors are skeptical
Speaker 1: about the green credentials or the environmental friendliness of that project.
Speaker 1: So we spoke to one man who runs a private
Speaker 1: bus line in the area where the new factory has
Speaker 1: been built, and he suspects that the pollution prevention system
Speaker 1: is actually turned off when nobody's watching, and he noted
Speaker 1: that the smoke you can see smoke from the factory
Speaker 1: better at night. He also pointed to the dilapidated buildings
Speaker 1: that belonged to former villages in the new areas and
Speaker 1: said that he was planning to leave soon and that
Speaker 1: nobody lives there anymore, saying that one more transparent element
Speaker 1: about the project is that it did include its targets
Speaker 1: for emission and pollution reduction. So, for example, set out
Speaker 1: to try and save more than a hundred and fifty
Speaker 1: thousand tons of coal and more than eight hundred thousand
Speaker 1: tons of water and more than eighty thousand tons of
Speaker 1: c O two emissions, so it did lay out some
Speaker 1: explicit targets. You tried to sort out which of these
Speaker 1: big projects funded about green bands were in fact green projects.
Speaker 1: Can you tell us what you found? So we took
Speaker 1: this sort of case study of thirty five of some
Speaker 1: of China's biggest green bonds from more than a thousand
Speaker 1: of the securities that have been issued so far, and
Speaker 1: of the ten of the biggest bonds, about half of
Speaker 1: them didn't have any disclosures about what type of projects
Speaker 1: they were going to, and one of the biggest bonds,
Speaker 1: although it disclosed more than two twenty different projects, didn't
Speaker 1: really specify what types of projects and what actual projects
Speaker 1: they were going to. So we did find there were
Speaker 1: these transparency issues with that case study. One of the
Speaker 1: criticisms of green bands is that buyers don't really have
Speaker 1: a very good idea of how green the project actually is,
Speaker 1: and with China that seems to be an especially big problem.
Speaker 1: So until relatively recently, green got bonds could actually be
Speaker 1: used to fund so called clean coal. That was something
Speaker 1: that was very controversial, particularly with international investors. That's no
Speaker 1: longer now acceptable as part of the green bond framework,
Speaker 1: and it's just one of the things that authorities have
Speaker 1: laid out to try and bring the standards of China's
Speaker 1: environmental bonds closer to international standards and closer in particular
Speaker 1: to Europe set US. Instead, some of those companies, those
Speaker 1: coal companies, could in turn try to issue transition bonds
Speaker 1: which would help with that movement to an alternative source
Speaker 1: of energy or to find cleaner ways of producing energy.
Speaker 1: So who is buying all of these bands? If they
Speaker 1: have just eventually have trillions of dollars of investors, they're
Speaker 1: not all in China? Who is investing in bands where
Speaker 1: it's not always clear where the money is going? So
Speaker 1: about Chinese green bonds are denominated in U n so
Speaker 1: those that were so known as local bonds, and they're
Speaker 1: largely really accessible to local investors. That leaves about thirty
Speaker 1: percent of bonds which are denominated in hard currencies, typically
Speaker 1: in US dollars, and these are the ones that are
Speaker 1: much easier for international investors to buy. So the bulk
Speaker 1: of the bonds that Chinese companies issues are are actually
Speaker 1: predominantly bought and sold by local investors, and particularly really
Speaker 1: by financial institutions and authorities themselves have urged the market
Speaker 1: to step in and try and boost am on for
Speaker 1: these types of notes. One way to boost a MAN,
Speaker 1: I suppose, would be to increase the transparency around what
Speaker 1: an investor's money is being spent on. Absolutely, so China has,
Speaker 1: for example, try to increase and improve standards around green bonds,
Speaker 1: particularly trying to introduce these taxonomys, systems of classification and
Speaker 1: make them sort of closer to European standards, which are
Speaker 1: sort of considered. I think that the best in show here,
Speaker 1: and that's essential to attracting particularly international investors, who typically
Speaker 1: have higher standards when it comes to fulfilling the requirements
Speaker 1: of their green mandates on funds. For example, you mentioned
Speaker 1: that of the buyers of these bands are local investors
Speaker 1: paying in yuan. It's not at all clear that they're
Speaker 1: all buying these bands because they're green. What other reason
Speaker 1: would they be buying these bands for. So it's not
Speaker 1: really clear that we're seeing many local investors choosing to
Speaker 1: buy lots of these bonds because of their green credentials.
Speaker 1: A lot of them seem to be bought and sold
Speaker 1: by financial institutions themselves, so I think there is an
Speaker 1: imperative felt from these financial institutions. Many of which are
Speaker 1: state banks to meet these sort of policies that are
Speaker 1: set out at the top to try to buy, sell,
Speaker 1: and engage in these green financing markets. But it's not
Speaker 1: really clear if the market itself has been motivated to
Speaker 1: engage to buy green debt because of the environmental goals. So,
Speaker 1: for example, we haven't seen a massive rush of green
Speaker 1: credit funds where the mandate or the requirement of the
Speaker 1: fund is to focus specifically on environmental debt. That's different
Speaker 1: from say in Europe, where we have seen more of
Speaker 1: that kind of activity. And does it look good for
Speaker 1: them to be investing in something that the presidentcy Jimping
Speaker 1: has publicly said is important to him. Authorities do seem
Speaker 1: to be aware that they need to encourage the market
Speaker 1: itself to try and fill the gap when it comes
Speaker 1: to investing in this type of product and try and
Speaker 1: sort of generate demand from the market itself. But we
Speaker 1: have certainly seen companies looking to try and meet these
Speaker 1: green goals and selling debt, possibly even when it isn't
Speaker 1: necessarily something which would obviously fulfill some kind of green requirement.
Speaker 1: Do you think that China will ultimately mirror Europe and
Speaker 1: other Western band markets which have greater, if not terrific transparency,
Speaker 1: or do you think they'll stay the same and other
Speaker 1: nations will start to mimic China in issuing a lot
Speaker 1: of bands without a lot of transparency. Well, China certainly
Speaker 1: has a different challenge to more developed countries. It's essentially
Speaker 1: trying to sort of still grow and develop its economy,
Speaker 1: move out of industrial phase, and meet these very ambitious
Speaker 1: environmental targets at the same time. But I do think
Speaker 1: that China ultimately is trying to move towards these better
Speaker 1: standards that we see in Europe and other Western bond
Speaker 1: markets which have much greater transparency. So for example, moving
Speaker 1: away from using green bonds to find the clean coal,
Speaker 1: which is very controversial among international investors, plus now saying
Speaker 1: that all of the use of proceeds from bonds have
Speaker 1: to go to green projects. Are two ways where China
Speaker 1: is trying to align its standards more closely with European standards.
Speaker 1: Do you anticipate that China will begin to really aggressively
Speaker 1: court outside investors to try to get international buyers for
Speaker 1: these bands. Well, on the one hand, I think the
Speaker 1: move to adopt some of these international standards does suggest
Speaker 1: it is trying to create more integrated system. We have seen,
Speaker 1: of course, about a third of the bonds issued in
Speaker 1: offshore currency, that they are sold outside of mainland China,
Speaker 1: where it's much easier for international investors to access them,
Speaker 1: saying that the bulk of China's credit market, which is
Speaker 1: has been historically used to fund the enormous amount of
Speaker 1: its development, really is in the onshore market where it's
Speaker 1: they're really dominated by local investors and local financial institutions.
Speaker 1: So the bulk of China's nineteen trillion dollar credit market
Speaker 1: is in fact onshore. Rebecca Jing Wilkins, thanks so much
Speaker 1: for talking to me. Thanks you very much for having me.
Speaker 1: What does a green band project that's actually green look like?
Speaker 1: Our producer in London, Frederica Romagnello, took a stroll down
Speaker 1: the Thames River to find out. I'm in London. I'm
Speaker 1: standing just underneath Blackfriars Bridge. It's the average London rainy day.
Speaker 1: There is a little bit of sunshine, there's quite a
Speaker 1: lot of rain coming down, and I'm standing in a
Speaker 1: construction site with Camill Cocken High Camille, Fredrika Camille, you
Speaker 1: are the interim head of Treasury a tide way. Could
Speaker 1: you tell me a bit more about tideway and why
Speaker 1: of all places today we're standing in a construction site.
Speaker 1: London relies on a sewer built for a population less
Speaker 1: than half its current size, and as a result there's
Speaker 1: millions of tons, roughly fourteen million a year they get
Speaker 1: pumped into the River Thames. We we're building a giant
Speaker 1: sewer which is going to intercept these bills, and I've
Speaker 1: lurned them into our into our super sewer. This will
Speaker 1: then we carried these words across the sewer. Treatments worked
Speaker 1: in Beckton out to the east of London, so Mill.
Speaker 1: We are standing now in the construction side of black Friers.
Speaker 1: Black Frier Station is just behind us. The tent is
Speaker 1: just a few meters in front of us. Obviously we
Speaker 1: cannot go underwater into the actual tunnel, but what does
Speaker 1: that look like? The Thames Tideway Tunnel that we're building
Speaker 1: is a twenty five kilometers along long tunnel seven point
Speaker 1: two m with so enough to get three London buses
Speaker 1: side by side inside it. Just you can picture that
Speaker 1: it stretches from Acton in the west to Abbey Mills
Speaker 1: in the east. It will be capturing the forty million
Speaker 1: tons of raw sewage that's pubbed into the Thames every year.
Speaker 1: What about now, because now this tunnel is not operational,
Speaker 1: So where is that waste going at the moment? Currently
Speaker 1: that waste is going into the Thames every year. Um,
Speaker 1: where we're standing here a Black Friers bridge. This is
Speaker 1: this is by the fleets here. So the combined mind
Speaker 1: sewerage overflowed, this alone pumps half a million tons of
Speaker 1: raw sewage into the Thames on average every single year.
Speaker 1: So the reason why we're talking about this specific project
Speaker 1: during this episode about green bonds is because part of
Speaker 1: the funding for this project has come from brain bonds.
Speaker 1: Could you tell me more about who is financing this
Speaker 1: project where the money is coming from. So the money
Speaker 1: is coming from a combination of of equity and debt.
Speaker 1: So first of all, we've we've had the support from
Speaker 1: shareholders who have invested one point three billion of their
Speaker 1: own money of equity into the company and that's been
Speaker 1: injected as cash and used for the construction of the tunnel.
Speaker 1: We've had a further one point eight billion in green
Speaker 1: bonds of the total three billion of that issued, all
Speaker 1: going into the construction of this asset, and when it
Speaker 1: comes to those grain bunds. In twenty seventeen you publish
Speaker 1: a framework for the issues of said green bunds, which
Speaker 1: was later updated in twenty twenty and also earlier the
Speaker 1: CEO is heabrary. What does the framework entail? Concretely? That
Speaker 1: framework is there to ensure that proceeds of the bonds
Speaker 1: are being used correctly. Now, in Tideway's case, every single
Speaker 1: penny that we receive is going into a project that's
Speaker 1: delivering massive environmental benefits. When it comes to the actual
Speaker 1: building of this tunnel, what sort of green policies and
Speaker 1: green strategies that are you're putting in place as a
Speaker 1: company during the building phase. One example of that is
Speaker 1: runs fronts us here with the barge Tideways, a massive
Speaker 1: construction project going through the heart of London along the
Speaker 1: River Thames and impacting some of the business business areas
Speaker 1: and with with twenty four construction sites. Now on a
Speaker 1: project of this scale, there's a lot of material being excavated,
Speaker 1: the lots of material needed and enjoying the construction process.
Speaker 1: And what these barges have been doing is taking taking
Speaker 1: a lot of that traffic off of the roads and
Speaker 1: moving it by river. That brings multiple benefits. So in
Speaker 1: terms of safety for people in the street, there's there's
Speaker 1: fewer fewer vehicles on the road. That's also taking pollution
Speaker 1: off of the road, delivered in a more environmentally friendly way. Um.
Speaker 1: Some of these bargets are being run on hydrogenated vegetable oil. Now,
Speaker 1: lots of this material that's been excavated. It's it's good
Speaker 1: quality material and in rain Um in Essex we've actually
Speaker 1: used it to create a wetland area for birds. When
Speaker 1: is this project going to be finished and what does
Speaker 1: that mean for you know, the esthetic of the tense
Speaker 1: really So we're entering a new phase in Tyler. So
Speaker 1: with most of the construction complete, all the all the
Speaker 1: type primary tunneling has completed with we've done the majority
Speaker 1: of the secondary lining UM. So the new phase that
Speaker 1: we're entering now is the commissioning. So it's the over
Speaker 1: the next couple of years we'll be doing all the testing,
Speaker 1: making making sure it's operational. Where we're standing here at
Speaker 1: Black Friars, this is one of the places where we'll
Speaker 1: have the last thing visible legacy of the project. We
Speaker 1: expect the project to become operational in camil cockin Entrinum,
Speaker 1: head of Treasury at Tideway, Thank you so much for
Speaker 1: joining me. Thank you, Federica, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: That was our producer Federica roman Yellow and you can
Speaker 1: read the China Green Bond story Rebecca Chung Wilkins talked
Speaker 1: about at Bloomberg dot com. Thanks for listening to us
Speaker 1: here at The Big Take, the daily podcast from Bloomberg
Speaker 1: and I Heart Radio. For more shows from my Heart Radio,
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Speaker 1: Read today's story and subscribe to our daily newsletter at
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Speaker 1: Big Take at Bloomberg dot net. The supervising producer of
Speaker 1: The Big Take is Vicky Burgalina. Our senior producer is
Speaker 1: Katherine Fink. Our producer is Frederica Romaniello. Our associate producer
Speaker 1: is ZENEB Sidiki. Raphael M. Seeley is our engineer. Original
Speaker 1: music by Leo Sidrin. I'm West Cassova. We're taking a
Speaker 1: pause for the Thanksgiving holiday here in the US, and
Speaker 1: we'll be back on Monday with another big Take. Enjoy
Speaker 1: your weekend,