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Speaker 1: So it's always a pleasure, it's always an honor. It's

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Speaker 1: a planner to welcome Tim Sanderford, Tim the lawyer of

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Speaker 1: the Goldwater Institute. Is there something or other? His title

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Speaker 1: isn't on the screen? Hansen? Why is the title not

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Speaker 1: on the screen? Anyway? Tim joins us. Now, Hello, Tim,

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Speaker 1: how are you hey? It's a planner to be here.

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Speaker 1: What is your title? By the way, I can't remember.

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Speaker 1: I'm the vice president for litigation, so I'm in charge

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Speaker 1: of our lawyers fabulars keeping them in line. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: they stayed pretty well. I'll bet y'all are pretty enthused

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Speaker 1: about your work there. I have so many questions for you,

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Speaker 1: Tim um that are just kept popping into my head,

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Speaker 1: including I remember you tweeting once last year about what

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Speaker 1: the best years of the Simpsons were. It was from

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Speaker 1: when to win seasons? First eight seasons and then why

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Speaker 1: did you cut it off after eight seasons? And did

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Speaker 1: something happen? Oh? It just went into gradual decline. So

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying that that that those other seasons are

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Speaker 1: are necessarily bad, but those are the cream of the crop.

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Speaker 1: The first seasons off putting Lee different, like a lot

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Speaker 1: of shows are um, and I would argue that the

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Speaker 1: pace of the early seasons, as delightful as they were,

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Speaker 1: is notably slower than you know, the last because better. Oh,

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Speaker 1: absolutely true. It's you know, I was watching a documentary

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Speaker 1: the other day and it just blew me away. How

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Speaker 1: short an attention span the directors nowadays give give us

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Speaker 1: credit for. They don't assume that we're able to sit

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Speaker 1: still and think about something for more than sixty seconds

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Speaker 1: at a time. So most of your documentaries nowadays seem

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Speaker 1: to consist of recapping what they just told you before

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Speaker 1: the commercial break and then telling you what's coming up

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Speaker 1: after the next commercial break. It's unbelievable. Yeah, it's troubling

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Speaker 1: in the music industry that they say, you've got what,

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Speaker 1: four seconds to grab people before they'll jump out of

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Speaker 1: the song, So you have to have something good in

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Speaker 1: that first four seconds. And I I refused to believe that.

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Speaker 1: I I My view is that they're giving us two

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Speaker 1: little credit that if Hollywood producers are music producers, would

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Speaker 1: give us the opportunity. I think they would be surprised

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Speaker 1: by the fact that people are willing to sit still

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Speaker 1: and listen for more than six months. Blah blah, blah,

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Speaker 1: too long, didn't listen see Game of Thrones, complex long,

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Speaker 1: all that sort of stuff, and people love it anyway.

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Speaker 1: The question I actually wanted to ask you because you

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Speaker 1: texted me a while back recommending a book Heaven on

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Speaker 1: Earth about socialism, and I think this presidential election, while

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Speaker 1: they're way too long in the modern world and way

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Speaker 1: too much about the personalities for like two years before

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Speaker 1: we can get the voting and all that sort of stuff,

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Speaker 1: having a national debate that I think we're going to

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Speaker 1: have about socialism, what it is, what it isn't, how

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Speaker 1: much of it do we want? All that sort of stuff.

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Speaker 1: I'm really excited about. Um, you won't be so excited

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Speaker 1: when you lose the argument, but well, I do think

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Speaker 1: we're gonna lose the argument. I'm on the non socialism side.

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Speaker 1: Why did you recommend the book on Heaven on Earth,

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Speaker 1: which is about the history of socialism? That's right. It's

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Speaker 1: by a guy named Joshua morav Chick who himself grew

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Speaker 1: up in a family of committed communists and then became

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Speaker 1: familiar with the history of socialism. And it's a very

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Speaker 1: objective and thorough history, really well written, describing how socialism

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Speaker 1: originated in different countries and the results of it, and

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Speaker 1: really that it's a secular version of a religion. It's

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Speaker 1: the idea that we can create heaven on earth with

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Speaker 1: with our our if only we believe strongly enough. Rather

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Speaker 1: than following the laws of economics that are natural laws,

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Speaker 1: just like the laws of physics and medicine, no, No,

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Speaker 1: Socialism tells us that we can rearrange those laws to

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Speaker 1: suit what we desire, which is a hopeless and potentially

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Speaker 1: disastrous tasks. You can actually redesign the desires and goals

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Speaker 1: of humanity and have the human being that's right, alter

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Speaker 1: human nature. That's right. Yeah, and I'll tell you it's

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Speaker 1: I'm into it, and it's really good heaven on earth

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Speaker 1: and it's not super thorny at least I haven't found

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Speaker 1: it to be so far. I think that's the conversation

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Speaker 1: we should have anyway over the next two years, especially

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Speaker 1: if Bernie is the candidate, which you very well maybe anyway, Well,

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Speaker 1: like I just said, unfortunately, it will probably take place

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Speaker 1: in the form of fifteen second blip verts instead of

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Speaker 1: an actual sustained argument between people who know what the

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Speaker 1: hell they're talking. Well, if you had a simple message

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Speaker 1: to friends. To say, a young adult who has fallen

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Speaker 1: for the sirens song of socialism thinks it's all about

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Speaker 1: justice and equality. What is your brief retort? It is

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Speaker 1: this government gets paid even when it's wrong. It's the

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Speaker 1: most important thing you can know about government. Government still

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Speaker 1: gets its paycheck even if it makes the wrong decision.

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Speaker 1: If I go to Taco Bell and I order a

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Speaker 1: burrito and they give me the wrong burrito, or they

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Speaker 1: give me something that I didn't order, I don't go

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Speaker 1: to that Taco Bell anymore. I go to some other

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Speaker 1: restaurant instead, and those people don't get paid because they

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Speaker 1: did a bad job. But if government does a bad job,

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Speaker 1: it still gets its money anyway. In fact, it probably

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Speaker 1: gets more money because they can go and complain and

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Speaker 1: say that the reason why they did the wrong thing

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Speaker 1: was because their budgets weren't big enough. So if government

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Speaker 1: gets paid even when it makes the wrong choice, why

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Speaker 1: in the world would you trust it to make any

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Speaker 1: choices at all. If you think that people are are

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Speaker 1: too stupid or lazy or whatever to run their own lives,

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Speaker 1: you certainly cannot trust them with the authority to run

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Speaker 1: other people's lives. But socialism ignores all of that and

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Speaker 1: says that if only we believe strongly enough, if only

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Speaker 1: we have enough faith, and if only we're willing to

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Speaker 1: sacrifice enough of ourselves on behalf of some abstract general good,

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Speaker 1: give up the greatness that belongs to each individual human

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Speaker 1: being for the sake of the state. But somehow we can,

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Speaker 1: you know, transcend material needs and become some sort of

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Speaker 1: huge superhuman beings where there will be no poverty and

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Speaker 1: no sadness and no risk, etcetera, etcetera. So that would

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Speaker 1: be my lesson, in short, have an on Earth. Indeed,

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Speaker 1: Tim Standerford is the Vice president for Litigation Goldwater Institute too,

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Speaker 1: besides litigating important cases for economic liberty, private property rights,

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Speaker 1: and free speeches, also the author of several terrific books,

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Speaker 1: including the recent Frederick Douglas Self Made Man and A

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Speaker 1: Faith of Mine Cornerstone of Liberty Property Rights in twenty

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Speaker 1: first Century America co authored with his lovely bride, Christina,

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Speaker 1: which points out that indeed, property rights are at the

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Speaker 1: corner stone of all liberty in spite of the messages

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Speaker 1: you hear otherwise anyway, So Tim, y'all have been fighting

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Speaker 1: against ridiculous regulations, particularly in Arizona recently tell us all

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Speaker 1: about it. Yeah, we actually we've had two really really

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Speaker 1: wonderful victories recently, one big one and one little bit

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Speaker 1: fun one. So the little bit fun one is this um.

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Speaker 1: In Arizona, as in many states, you have to have

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Speaker 1: a license to be a makeup artist or a barber

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Speaker 1: or cosmetologist, and of course to get that license can

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Speaker 1: take thousands of hours in training and cost tens of

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Speaker 1: thousands of dollars. In fact, it takes longer to become

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Speaker 1: a licensed cosmetologist in Arizona than to become an airline

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Speaker 1: a professional airline pilot. You know. I remember my my

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Speaker 1: cousin was interested in being a cosmetologist, and for the

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Speaker 1: first several months she was working, she would just jab

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Speaker 1: women right in the eye with the mass because she

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Speaker 1: didn't understand you're not supposed to jab people in the

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Speaker 1: eye until she was taught that. See. And the absurdity

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Speaker 1: of it all is that we all know that these

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Speaker 1: licensing laws actually don't exist to protect the public in

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Speaker 1: most cases most of the time. What they really are

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Speaker 1: our prohibitions on free economic competition that are in place

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Speaker 1: to protect those who already have licenses against having to

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Speaker 1: compete but from others. And so it's just like if

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Speaker 1: Walmart were to try to outlaw target, you know, it

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Speaker 1: could make a lot of money by doing that. And

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Speaker 1: so a lot of the time businesses go to the

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Speaker 1: government asked to them to create these licensing laws so

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Speaker 1: that they don't have to compete against people, so that

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Speaker 1: they can then raise their prices. Well, it's become very

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Speaker 1: fashionable in certain circumstances to have what they call blow

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Speaker 1: dry bars, which is these are not barber shops. You

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Speaker 1: don't get your hair cut there, but you get what's

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Speaker 1: called a blowout. This is something This was all new

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Speaker 1: to me being a man. This isn't something I have

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Speaker 1: to deal with. This is something women. This isn't Robert

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Speaker 1: Kraft thing. Is it that the owner who went to

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Speaker 1: get the rubb and tug and flo different? It's a

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Speaker 1: different thing. Okay, who who knows why these fads come

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Speaker 1: and go. But the new thing is to have these

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Speaker 1: they do your hair with just a blow dry well

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Speaker 1: in Arizona that was illegal without a cosmetology life. Oh

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Speaker 1: my god. These people aren't cutting hair or or or

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Speaker 1: shampooing or anything like that. They're just using a blow dryer,

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Speaker 1: and it's illegal to use a blow dryer without government

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Speaker 1: permission in the state of Arizona. Are important constitutional issues

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Speaker 1: at stake here. But so they just like, wet your

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Speaker 1: hair then dry it. They just oh, they don't, haven't

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Speaker 1: necessarily wet your hair, just they just blow it and

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Speaker 1: then comb it and it makes it look in a

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Speaker 1: different way. I don't know. This is magic in my mind,

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Speaker 1: breeding illegal pandas in the back or something. This is

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Speaker 1: the front exactly. So, so fortunately the governor has just

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Speaker 1: signed a bill that says, no, you don't have to

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Speaker 1: get government permission to use a blow dryer on somebody's hair.

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Speaker 1: People already use blow dryers in their own homes. It's

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Speaker 1: already you're allowed to use blow dryers or hair irons

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Speaker 1: in a demonstration, in a store, in a shopping mall

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Speaker 1: in Arizona. So why can't we just allow people to

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Speaker 1: do blow drying if that's something that people want to do.

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Speaker 1: And you will not believe how controversial this was one

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Speaker 1: of one of the most controversial pieces of legislation to

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Speaker 1: pass in Arizona in recent years. Well, I understand it

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Speaker 1: didn't get a single Democratic vote in the House exactly right.

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Speaker 1: The powerful cronies. And you wouldn't think that the cosmetology

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Speaker 1: industry would be like this, but in fact, they are

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Speaker 1: very powerful, politically influential cronies in the state of Arizona.

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Speaker 1: They lobbied hard to prohibit this because they don't want

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Speaker 1: to face fair economic competition. And I'm glad to say

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Speaker 1: the good guys won, and the governor has signed that bill.

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Speaker 1: So Sean had the question, what's to stop them from

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Speaker 1: blow drying directly into their someone's eyes and dogs and

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Speaker 1: cats living together mass hysteria? He knew not there was

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Speaker 1: testimony in the state legislature that people would die if

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Speaker 1: this bill pass. Okay, So I I the funny question,

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Speaker 1: but the legitimate for people saying, well, maybe maybe there

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Speaker 1: should be a reason that a makeup artist gets a license.

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Speaker 1: Is there a decent argument for that? No, I don't

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Speaker 1: see one either. But and and we already let people

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Speaker 1: you put makeup on themselves or their children or their

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Speaker 1: loved ones at home. So if it's safe enough to

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Speaker 1: do there, it also should be safe enough to do professionally.

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Speaker 1: If it's so dangerous, then you need to outlaw it

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Speaker 1: in the home. Also, well, and I know, and Milton

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Speaker 1: Friedman was always making the argument, and he's one of

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Speaker 1: my favorite writers of libertarian freedom and stuff, is that

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Speaker 1: even if you're gonna have these sorts of things, you

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Speaker 1: don't want them to be a government organization exactly because again,

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Speaker 1: government gets paid even when it's wrong. Now, the second

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Speaker 1: there was a second piece of legislation that got passed

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Speaker 1: I also want to talk about this is this is

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Speaker 1: a bigger deal, and that is our Universal Recognition Bill.

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Speaker 1: And that is a piece of legislation that says that

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Speaker 1: if you got a professional license in some other state

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Speaker 1: and you move to Arizona, you don't have to get

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Speaker 1: that license in Arizona. We will recognize your out of

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Speaker 1: state license period. And that is a huge benefit to

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Speaker 1: the Arizona economy and to the freedom of people who

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Speaker 1: want to move to this state. Arizona has been bringing

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Speaker 1: in a lot of population lately, people fleeing the People's

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Speaker 1: Republic of California, among other things, and they're they're coming

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Speaker 1: here bringing their skills in their knowledge, and they shouldn't

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Speaker 1: be locked out of jobs absent some government bureaucrats permission.

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Speaker 1: What's the argument behind that one. Well, once again, you know,

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Speaker 1: we Oh my gosh, it's public safety, public safety, except

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Speaker 1: it's not really public safety. What it really is is

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Speaker 1: existing industries not wanting to face their competition. I love

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Speaker 1: this list. Contractors, contractors, home inspectors, massage therapists, exterminators, more titians,

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Speaker 1: childcare workers, and many others. If you've got a bad mortician,

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Speaker 1: is he going to kill somebody? That the fear and

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Speaker 1: the governor. The governor signed this bill into law as

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Speaker 1: a as sort of a publicity stunt on the hood

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Speaker 1: of a U haul tractor to show people that you know,

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Speaker 1: Arizona is open for business. All of you suckers still

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Speaker 1: sitting there in California waiting for the taxman to show up.

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Speaker 1: You know, you're all welcome out here. It's real nice

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Speaker 1: er in the wintertime. So I've always wondered, so if say,

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Speaker 1: say I'm doing something where there is some possible danger, Um,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, you're using chemicals or something like that

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Speaker 1: for fixing people's hair or something like that. If I

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Speaker 1: if I, if I do something wrong and hurt them,

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Speaker 1: I'm are Aren't I just subject to the same laws

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Speaker 1: that would would exist with anybody that's for hurting them? Already?

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Speaker 1: So I mean there's already there's already a deterrent. Not

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Speaker 1: only is it gonna kill my business that I've put,

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Speaker 1: you know, money and effort into, I'm liable already. And

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Speaker 1: you know there's plenty of ways for people to find

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Speaker 1: that out too. You know, back in the day before

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Speaker 1: Yelp and Amazon and Craigslist and Angie's List and all

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Speaker 1: these sorts of things, people couldn't necessarily get information about

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Speaker 1: a barber before they went down to his barbershop. But

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Speaker 1: nowadays you can check, you can find out this information

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Speaker 1: is this guy a good barber or not before you

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Speaker 1: go down there. So there's even less need for licensing

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Speaker 1: than there was in the past. Now, you're right, if

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Speaker 1: it's a threat, if the person is using dangerous chemicals,

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Speaker 1: then that person should have to be competent before engaging

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Speaker 1: in that trade. And we don't disagree that. But when

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Speaker 1: a person is just using a blow dryer that you're

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Speaker 1: already allowed to use at home or Another example that

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Speaker 1: came up in recent years is um teeth whiteners. There's

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Speaker 1: people who, for for money, will whiten your teeth by

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Speaker 1: applying a one of those plastic strips to your teeth

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Speaker 1: and then they pull it off and your teeth look wider.

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Speaker 1: And the government in several states tried to shut that

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Speaker 1: down saying people were engaging dentistry without a license. Dentist

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Speaker 1: license did, but you can go and buy these things

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Speaker 1: over the counter at the store. You're a bit of

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Speaker 1: a more on paying someone to do it, but it's

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Speaker 1: your choice, right. Well, it shows that licensing laws are

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Speaker 1: used not to protect consumers but to protect established businesses

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Speaker 1: against fair competition. Tim, We've got about ninety seconds left.

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Speaker 1: But I remember one of our favorite cases was the

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Speaker 1: one involving moving companies. Was it in Washington State or Oregon?

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Speaker 1: But it was in several states, but that the one

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Speaker 1: you're thinking. It was in Kentucky. But in a lot

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Speaker 1: of states you have to get permission from all the

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Speaker 1: existing moving companies before you're allowed to run a moving couch. Hilarious.

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Speaker 1: We did this case in in Kentucky a few years

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Speaker 1: ago and got that struck down as unconstitutional. Very proud,

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Speaker 1: always always getting Kentucky and Oregon mixed up, which totally

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Speaker 1: ruined my Kentucky Derby vacation. Honestly, I was there in

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Speaker 1: Medford just waiting forcing at all, yeah, it was terrible

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Speaker 1: good stuff. Tim Lawyer. Tim Sanderford is the vice president

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Speaker 1: for Litigation the Goldwater Institute. Frederick Douglass Self Made Man,

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Speaker 1: the most recent book. It's terrific for adults and uh

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Speaker 1: and really teens or particularly bright nine year olds. It's

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Speaker 1: just a fabulous read. Tim. It's always great, always stimulating.

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Speaker 1: It's been too long. Let's talk again soon. Absolutely, guys,

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Speaker 1: thanks all right, our pleasure. And even if you decide

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Speaker 1: there should be some sort of regulating body, it doesn't

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Speaker 1: need to be a government institution. It could be a

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Speaker 1: private institution that everybody you know joins or pays into

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Speaker 1: or whatever. And furthermore, if Kentucky said you're a p

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Speaker 1: thickly good exterminator, you don't need a new license just

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Speaker 1: because you cross the state line, right,