1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class, A production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. Hello and Happy Friday, and I'll 3 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 1: say it again because we're still in it. Happy New 4 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:21,320 Speaker 1: Year to Yeah, I'm Holly Fry, I'm Tracy V. Wilson. 5 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:24,920 Speaker 1: This week we talked about blood transfusions a whole bunch 6 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 1: shirt did. One of the reasons that I wanted to 7 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:34,559 Speaker 1: cover this topic, uh and really revisit this narrative in 8 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:37,159 Speaker 1: a deeper sort of way is because I read I 9 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 1: read Holly Tucker's book a while back, and I really 10 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: loved it at the time, and UM was looking for 11 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 1: a way to talk about Jean Baptiste Denny. But the 12 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 1: other thing that came up that really propelled this up 13 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: my list was that I, you know, would occasionally stumble 14 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: across mentions of him, and there was so much wrong stuff. UM. 15 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: As we mentioned, things that are sensationalized get retold often 16 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: in ways that maybe aren't as um rigorously researched as 17 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 1: one might normally love and so there were aspects of 18 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 1: his case that would come up that we're just completely wrong, 19 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 1: Like a lot of articles say that he was the 20 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 1: King Louis the fourteenth doctor, which was not the case, 21 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 1: like the people that we're working for, kay I thought 22 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:30,960 Speaker 1: he was a heritage like that, he was this upstart. 23 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:35,319 Speaker 1: So um, all of that becomes an impulse from that 24 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:38,319 Speaker 1: helps drive my impulse to cover those subjects because I 25 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: know no one is intending to do anything wrong with that. 26 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:43,399 Speaker 1: But it's like those kinds of little details that get 27 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:46,399 Speaker 1: shifted in the retellings of things can often change the 28 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 1: meanings of things, and that tends to then erase all 29 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 1: of the things, all of the ideologies that were in 30 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 1: play and in debate at the time between that older 31 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 1: guard of physicians and scientists in pairs US and people 32 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: like Denny who were right or wrong in their methodology 33 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 1: trying to propel science forward. UM as well as you 34 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 1: know that other bigger story if you widen out the 35 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 1: circle of focus to France and England and their conflicts 36 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 1: at the time ideologically and how this was part of that, 37 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 1: that one little detail changes that all around. UM. As 38 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 1: I said, I was also really as much as it's 39 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 1: uncomfortable to talk about some of these experiments and their 40 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: um their ethics, it does open the door to talk 41 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 1: about how people viewed animals and science in a way 42 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: that is always important to me as much as I 43 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:48,240 Speaker 1: don't I don't love imagining things. But um, like I, 44 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 1: as I mentioned during the empisodes, I had never really 45 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 1: thought about that idea that animals lived purer lives and 46 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 1: we're not as tainted by the behaviors that humans indulge in. 47 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 1: That cracked me up a lot, because yes, sure, sure 48 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 1: the animals are not going out and having like a 49 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 1: drunken party at a c D tavern, but they are 50 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 1: licking their own behinds right right right, Which then gets 51 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:18,960 Speaker 1: to the uh. It opens that door again to discussing 52 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 1: what was really considered problematic. Right like actual germ theory, 53 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:30,080 Speaker 1: filth was not as problematic as moral filth, which is 54 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 1: just an interesting way to kind of frame any of 55 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 1: the things that we look at from those periods of time. 56 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 1: One thing that I didn't talk about that is also 57 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 1: religious in nature, related to the work Denny was doing 58 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 1: that is kind of follows on that idea of animals 59 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 1: having a purity about them, was that he was, in 60 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 1: some ways, with some of his choices, trying to gain 61 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 1: the trust of the religious community. Um. That choice of 62 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 1: using a lamb in that first transfusion with the teenage 63 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 1: boy was not accidental because he recognized the symbolism of 64 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 1: the lamb as related to Jesus Christ, like it is 65 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:16,599 Speaker 1: life giving. I am just using science as a way 66 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 1: to manifest something that we talked about all the time 67 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:22,599 Speaker 1: is important in religion, which was kind of an interesting, 68 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:26,679 Speaker 1: um way to frame that. Now that you said that, 69 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:35,719 Speaker 1: that makes perfect sense. Oh so much so much blood talk, 70 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: which I I am lucky enough to not be particularly 71 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 1: squeamish about medical so I don't think I could ever 72 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:47,479 Speaker 1: do it. I could never be a doctor. Um, but 73 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 1: the ideas of it are pretty fascinating. Like I will 74 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 1: watch surgeries find them fascinating. Um. But yeah, um, I 75 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 1: love to watch the TV show Gray's Anatomy and uh, 76 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: and my spouse does not watch the show, but is 77 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: sometimes in the room with me when I have it 78 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 1: on and has this uncanny of ability to look at 79 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 1: the screen exactly when somebody is like arm deep into 80 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 1: an abdomen and he's so horrified every time. Oh yeah, 81 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 1: I also could not be a doctor because I cannot 82 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: I cannot deal with the vomit, right, Yeah. I mean 83 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 1: we didn't go into the descriptions, but I will say 84 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 1: some of the descriptions of like the scenes where these 85 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:38,119 Speaker 1: things are taking place by the time they are over. 86 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 1: As much as I don't think of myself as squeamish 87 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 1: about blood at all, those were a little like, I 88 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 1: don't know how you would stand there and not just 89 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:53,279 Speaker 1: like yeah, uh, have a break with reality, lose your 90 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: mind or lunch there are you know? Certainly some yeah, 91 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 1: whenever I'm getting a physical and you know, I'm I'm 92 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 1: at the Phlebottomus station getting my blood drawn, I'm always 93 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:10,839 Speaker 1: watching because I'm fascinated me too. Sometimes it kind of 94 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: freaks out the person he's doing it, like are you okay? Yes, 95 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 1: I'm totally fine. But that's also a way more controlled, 96 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 1: less chaotic situation than the ones that we described in 97 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 1: the episode. Oh it's spa like by comparison, right right, 98 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 1: I mean, um. The thing to think about two and 99 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:33,040 Speaker 1: I didn't mention it here, but we have talked about 100 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: the development of it on the show before, is that 101 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 1: anesthesia was not in the mix, so no one was 102 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 1: getting any assistance in that regard, unless you count the 103 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:49,480 Speaker 1: dog that was given wine after the procedure, which still 104 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:58,040 Speaker 1: is like oh man, what uh that's another thing though, too, right, 105 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:02,599 Speaker 1: We talked about these instances where people were crowding around 106 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:05,600 Speaker 1: and watching these things being done, which also seems a 107 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 1: bit ghoulish, and culturally there was a comfort with that 108 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 1: kind of gore for lack of a better word than 109 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 1: we have today. But the more overriding thing was I 110 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 1: think that they thought like I might be witnessing like 111 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 1: a turning point in history. I might be part of 112 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 1: something huge in this moment, or something might go terribly 113 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 1: wrong and I will get to watch that too, Right. 114 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: I don't think those are necessarily two different. People can 115 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 1: feel both of those thoughts. I will either get to 116 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 1: be part of medical history or I will be entertained 117 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: by something kind of gross, which has its own appeal 118 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: for a lot of people. Yeah. Also, knowing just a 119 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 1: minimum of facts about blood transfusion that we know now, 120 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 1: the first time I read through this outline, especially in 121 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 1: part one, every time it got to another dog transpusion, 122 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 1: I was like, this is the one where it's going 123 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 1: to go wrong. Yeah, I mean that's also worth noting. Right. 124 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 1: Denny mostly was pretty successful, um, which is why he 125 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: really thought like, you guys are knee capping the development 126 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 1: of important science with these rulings. I'm showing you that 127 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 1: this can be done and that it can work. Now, 128 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 1: there are lots of other questions about that, right, like 129 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 1: questions always coming about okay, but exactly how much blood 130 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 1: were they actually transfusing. It may have often been less 131 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 1: than they thought. Right, We didn't have anticoagulants at the time, 132 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: so things would get very slow, almost instantly, So those 133 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: numbers of ounces that are transferred are kind of guesswork. Um. 134 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 1: On the one hand, he clearly add a bit of 135 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 1: the show boater in him, like he completely welcomed even 136 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 1: the detractors because he definitely came from the school of um. 137 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:17,320 Speaker 1: Any publicity is good publicity. But he also did seem 138 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 1: pretty driven to actually like make progress, which is you know, 139 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: those are also sometimes hard to hold those two ideas 140 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 1: in one's mind about a person because we tend to 141 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 1: want to make them good guys are bad guys, which 142 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 1: we learn every week is not realistic because that's not 143 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 1: how humans work. Anyway. Here at the beginning of I 144 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: hope no one needs a transfusion, but if you do, 145 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 1: I'm glad we have figured it out. On that happy note, 146 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 1: we hope you have a Marvelous Weekend uh. If you 147 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:00,839 Speaker 1: would like to subscribe to the pie Cast, you can 148 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:02,559 Speaker 1: do that on the I heart Radio app, at Apple 149 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 1: podcast or wherever it is you listen. Stuff you Missed 150 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 1: in History Class is a production of I heart Radio. 151 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:16,200 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the i 152 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:19,440 Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 153 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:20,320 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.