WEBVTT - Hereditary with Puloma Ghosh 0:00:01.000 --> 0:00:02.160 On the Bechdel Cast. 0:00:02.240 --> 0:00:05.680 The questions asked if movies have women and them, are 0:00:05.840 --> 0:00:08.440 all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they 0:00:08.440 --> 0:00:13.720 have individualism? It's the patriarchy, z Ephyn bast start changing 0:00:14.000 --> 0:00:15.320 with the Bechdel Cast. 0:00:16.360 --> 0:00:22.520 Hale, Caitlon, Yeah, Hale, James Amon. 0:00:24.640 --> 0:00:27.760 It actually works pretty well, a little too well, a 0:00:27.800 --> 0:00:32.520 little too well, too well, a little suspicious, I think. 0:00:32.680 --> 0:00:40.960 Well, welcome to the Beymon Cast. My name's jaymon Leyman and. 0:00:40.920 --> 0:00:45.600 My name is Kymon Deraymon. 0:00:46.440 --> 0:00:50.760 Well, yeah, wow, look at us, and this is the 0:00:50.920 --> 0:00:54.520 show where we talk about your favorite movies from an 0:00:54.520 --> 0:00:59.800 intersectional feminist perspective, using the Bechdel Test as a jumping 0:01:00.200 --> 0:01:05.880 point for discussion. But Kaitlyn, what the hell? Cape? Sorry, 0:01:06.040 --> 0:01:09.760 I'm so sorry, came on, came on? Came on, Deraimon? 0:01:10.000 --> 0:01:14.400 What is that? It's not gonna stop being funny to me? 0:01:14.640 --> 0:01:18.080 Buckle in for an episode? Uh, came on, Deraymond. What 0:01:18.280 --> 0:01:19.640 is the Bechdel Test? 0:01:20.200 --> 0:01:24.360 It is a media metric created by Alison Bechdel. I 0:01:24.400 --> 0:01:27.920 almost tried to make Alison Bechdel's name demonic as well. 0:01:27.800 --> 0:01:30.040 But she just leave her out of it. 0:01:30.040 --> 0:01:32.880 It's not Yeah, I'm so sorry, two days out. 0:01:32.720 --> 0:01:36.000 Of Pride Month and you're demonizing Alison Bechdel. 0:01:36.120 --> 0:01:41.800 Come on, damn anyway. It's a media metric, first appearing 0:01:42.000 --> 0:01:44.640 in her comic Dicks to Watch Out For in the 0:01:44.720 --> 0:01:48.680 nineteen eighties. It's often called the Bechdel Wallace test because 0:01:48.800 --> 0:01:52.040 it was co created by Alison Bechdel and her friend 0:01:52.080 --> 0:01:54.560 Liz Wallace. It was kind of created as a bit. 0:01:54.640 --> 0:01:57.960 It appears in the comic as as a bit specific. 0:01:58.040 --> 0:02:01.040 Yeah that like more references how few queer women there 0:02:01.040 --> 0:02:04.280 are in media. It's always more complicated that it's presented 0:02:04.320 --> 0:02:06.000 in the mainstream. 0:02:05.680 --> 0:02:08.720 Indeed, and there are many different versions of it. The 0:02:08.760 --> 0:02:12.280 one that we use is this, do two characters of 0:02:12.320 --> 0:02:16.000 a marginalized gender have names? Do they speak to each other? 0:02:16.080 --> 0:02:19.600 And is there conversation about something other than a man 0:02:19.840 --> 0:02:23.880 or about something other than Peymon? If so, it passes 0:02:24.000 --> 0:02:24.679 the Bechdel test. 0:02:24.840 --> 0:02:27.440 I guess are we to believe? I mean, Peymon is 0:02:27.480 --> 0:02:31.720 pretty aggressively gendered. I guess, yeah, yeah, so tell me 0:02:31.760 --> 0:02:35.040 about it. We can't like really talk like many like, 0:02:35.040 --> 0:02:37.800 we can't be like Paymon is a genderless entity. In fact, 0:02:38.720 --> 0:02:41.640 that's part of the whole thing, all right, never mind. 0:02:41.440 --> 0:02:43.320 The whole and yeah, we'll talk about it. 0:02:43.600 --> 0:02:47.840 Fuck what I was about to say. And today we 0:02:47.880 --> 0:02:50.200 are covering a movie that I am pretty sure we 0:02:50.280 --> 0:02:53.600 have gotten pretty consistent, especially during like horror movie season, 0:02:53.600 --> 0:02:57.240 We've gotten pretty consistent requests for since it came out, 0:02:57.960 --> 0:03:04.359 and that is our Asters twenty eighteen movie, Hereditary. And 0:03:04.440 --> 0:03:08.000 we have with us not just an incredible writer, not 0:03:08.040 --> 0:03:12.440 just an incredible person, but number one Hereditary fan. Let's 0:03:12.440 --> 0:03:13.160 get her in here. 0:03:13.840 --> 0:03:18.040 Let's she's a writer and author of the short story 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:21.360 collection entitled Mouth, which just came out, so check it out. 0:03:21.680 --> 0:03:26.000 It's Paloma Ghosh, Hello, Hi, Hello, come. 0:03:26.680 --> 0:03:29.280 So my name actually does start with a pece so. 0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:34.160 Pala mon wow, pala, and it has a lot of 0:03:34.160 --> 0:03:38.360 the same letters as Peymon. So I kind of fucked 0:03:38.400 --> 0:03:42.760 that intro up. So it's Peymon gosh Hello, Hi. 0:03:43.840 --> 0:03:47.000 Although as a long suffering Digimon fan, I just I'm 0:03:47.120 --> 0:03:50.119 envisioning this as everyone's Digimon names right now. 0:03:50.280 --> 0:03:51.520 Oh, it kind of is. 0:03:52.360 --> 0:03:52.600 Wow. 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:55.680 I was a Pokemon girl. I was basic. Oh I 0:03:55.760 --> 0:04:01.720 was basic. I know. Yeah, And the rivalry begins quick pivot. 0:04:02.400 --> 0:04:08.080 So we're re covering Hereditary Caitlin came on is under Duress. 0:04:08.440 --> 0:04:10.440 I'm really excited. I feel like we have a real 0:04:10.680 --> 0:04:16.200 range of opinions in the chat about Hereditary twenty eighteen. 0:04:16.279 --> 0:04:19.880 So let's start with you, Paloma. What is your connection 0:04:20.000 --> 0:04:22.880 to this movie? What is your history with Hereditary? 0:04:23.440 --> 0:04:28.200 So I am a fan of horror movies and try 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:32.359 to watch like every horror movie that is supposedly good, 0:04:32.440 --> 0:04:35.800 even the ones that are supposedly not good. So when 0:04:35.839 --> 0:04:37.839 this came out, all of the talk about it was 0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:41.080 really exciting. People were like, I left the theater and 0:04:41.160 --> 0:04:45.080 like threw up or whatever. So I had to see it, 0:04:45.120 --> 0:04:47.040 and I saw it in theaters and it scared the 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:50.760 shit out of me. I had trouble sleeping. I had nightmares. 0:04:50.839 --> 0:04:53.279 I had like, you know, wake up in the middle 0:04:53.279 --> 0:04:57.640 of the night, gasping nightmares. And I was so scared. 0:04:57.800 --> 0:05:02.160 And so I was like, this movie rules, because if 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:04.560 you watch a lot of horror, when something genuinely like 0:05:04.680 --> 0:05:09.839 scares the shit out of you, it's exciting and not revolting. 0:05:10.720 --> 0:05:13.400 And as a writer, I was like, Okay, this was 0:05:13.440 --> 0:05:16.960 successful for me. I must immediately pull it apart and 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:19.560 figure out why. So I watched it over and over. 0:05:19.880 --> 0:05:24.880 I have outlined it, I have like tracked scares. I've 0:05:24.920 --> 0:05:28.920 tried to figure out like the mechanics of how this 0:05:29.040 --> 0:05:32.600 movie fucked me up like badly, and a lot of 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:34.400 people I know as well for a while. 0:05:34.800 --> 0:05:37.719 Yeah, whether you like this movie or you don't like it, 0:05:38.080 --> 0:05:39.960 I feel like it's almost import you have to be 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:43.640 so hardened to the worlds for it to not fuck 0:05:43.720 --> 0:05:47.120 you up truly. But I'm curious about how Yeah, I mean, 0:05:47.240 --> 0:05:50.520 we'll talk about it, but like, I'm getting so amped 0:05:50.600 --> 0:05:53.200 and terrified to talk about this movie. Caitlin came on, 0:05:53.440 --> 0:05:55.560 what is your history with Hereditary? 0:05:56.000 --> 0:05:59.680 Okay? I saw it in theaters and it was probably 0:05:59.839 --> 0:06:05.440 the the most unpleasant movie theater going experience I've ever had. 0:06:05.839 --> 0:06:08.440 I remember, I think you maybe texted me after you 0:06:08.480 --> 0:06:11.039 saw this and you were just like, I've just had 0:06:11.400 --> 0:06:14.080 I've just had a hell of a night. Yeah. 0:06:14.120 --> 0:06:18.920 So I don't seek out horror movies as much as 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:22.040 most other genres. It's not that I don't like horror. 0:06:22.120 --> 0:06:25.640 There are many horror movies I love, but I'm very 0:06:25.720 --> 0:06:29.839 easily startled and scary movies. Even when they're not very 0:06:29.839 --> 0:06:32.400 scary and not very good, they still make me so 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:38.440 nervous and just like stricken with anxiety. And I'm pretty 0:06:38.480 --> 0:06:41.159 squeamish when it comes to like guts and gore and 0:06:41.200 --> 0:06:45.000 blood and body horror. So the odds are just stacked 0:06:45.040 --> 0:06:48.279 against me. So I struggle with a lot of horror movies, 0:06:48.600 --> 0:06:51.839 but I still see a lot of them. And I 0:06:51.880 --> 0:06:54.200 went to go see Hereditary because I heard that it 0:06:54.279 --> 0:06:57.200 was so scary and so well done and like very 0:06:57.240 --> 0:07:00.800 well directed, and there were incredible performances. So I went 0:07:00.920 --> 0:07:05.080 to see the movie and I walked away from it 0:07:05.160 --> 0:07:09.600 in full body pain because I was so clenched up, 0:07:10.200 --> 0:07:14.160 just like shoulders to my ears, like plugging my ears 0:07:14.160 --> 0:07:16.920 the whole time. It's just so tight and tense. 0:07:17.040 --> 0:07:17.920 So it worked. 0:07:18.280 --> 0:07:21.160 It worked. It was a very effective horror movie. There 0:07:21.200 --> 0:07:25.880 aren't that many jump scares. There's maybe only two or 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:30.400 three things that might startle you, but it just fills 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:33.240 you with well, I won't speak for everyone. It filled 0:07:33.280 --> 0:07:36.680 me with such dread such. 0:07:36.640 --> 0:07:40.360 I felt fine. I felt fine the whole movie, so just. 0:07:40.240 --> 0:07:43.200 But like dread that I've never felt before, Like other 0:07:43.280 --> 0:07:45.880 movies will be like, oh, I feel horrible for now, 0:07:46.080 --> 0:07:48.440 but here's another scene where I can kind of breathe 0:07:48.440 --> 0:07:52.000 a sigh of relief before the tension ramps up again. 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:56.200 This movie was just constant dread and tension and scariness. 0:07:56.320 --> 0:07:59.280 So I walked away in pain. But I was also like, wow, 0:07:59.640 --> 0:08:02.840 that was like a beautifully crafted movie as far as 0:08:02.880 --> 0:08:07.320 like technical cinematography, editing, sound design, all that kind of stuff. 0:08:07.400 --> 0:08:10.280 The performance is incredible, Tony Kolett give the woman an 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:14.360 oscar unbelievable. But also I was like, I never want 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:16.280 to see that movie again. I refuse to cover it 0:08:16.320 --> 0:08:18.480 on the Bechdel Cast. It's the one movie that I 0:08:18.480 --> 0:08:21.360 won't do. I've publicly said this on the show, and 0:08:21.440 --> 0:08:24.320 yet here we are, Here we are, and I've watched 0:08:24.360 --> 0:08:26.760 the movie two more times to prep for this episode. 0:08:27.000 --> 0:08:29.280 It took half a decade, you know. It's like we 0:08:29.960 --> 0:08:32.599 slowly wore you down. We covered Midsummer a couple of 0:08:32.679 --> 0:08:35.240 years ago on the Matreon and. 0:08:35.360 --> 0:08:37.160 Now even we're here. 0:08:37.559 --> 0:08:40.200 So what was it? Did you feel any differently revisiting it? 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:44.440 I felt the same because I forgot enough stuff that 0:08:44.600 --> 0:08:48.720 everything was pretty fresh upon the rewatch. The jump scares 0:08:48.840 --> 0:08:51.680 still scared the hell on me. The dread was still there, 0:08:52.520 --> 0:08:56.120 and I feel horrible right now. I just want everyone 0:08:56.559 --> 0:08:59.839 to know. Hell yeah, well the listeners out there, please 0:08:59.840 --> 0:09:01.800 get me your sympathy. Thank you so much. 0:09:02.280 --> 0:09:05.280 I thought on the sixth watch, I was like, it's 0:09:05.280 --> 0:09:07.959 not gonna scare me anymore. I've seen it so many times. 0:09:08.200 --> 0:09:11.280 It was Hubris. Still last night, I was just like 0:09:11.320 --> 0:09:12.880 in the dark, like, oh God. 0:09:12.840 --> 0:09:17.040 It's happening again. Literally, I mean, yeah. 0:09:16.920 --> 0:09:19.959 Jamie, what's your relationship with the movie. 0:09:20.240 --> 0:09:22.480 I feel like it's been a while since we've had 0:09:22.520 --> 0:09:24.559 an episode like this, but this feels like a classic 0:09:24.559 --> 0:09:27.680 Bechdel cast dynamic where I think I'm somewhere in the 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:30.880 middle here where I didn't see this movie when it 0:09:30.920 --> 0:09:33.520 first came out, but I saw it shortly after, and 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:36.720 I think came on. I was coming, oh, there's a 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:39.400 cat pull on the cat sighting pull. Him and I 0:09:39.440 --> 0:09:41.000 both have a black cat and a gray. 0:09:40.800 --> 0:09:45.079 Cat and the hot girls special it really is. 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:48.640 It's a sacred bot. So, yeah, I didn't see it 0:09:48.679 --> 0:09:50.760 in theaters. I wish I had. I would like to 0:09:50.800 --> 0:09:53.000 see this movie in theaters, would you? 0:09:53.679 --> 0:09:53.959 Yeah? 0:09:54.000 --> 0:09:57.520 I mean truly, because I haven't seen Bo's Afraid Because 0:09:57.600 --> 0:09:59.280 no matter how much I like a director, if the 0:09:59.320 --> 0:10:02.560 movie's too long, I'm not seeing it in theaters so long, 0:10:02.720 --> 0:10:06.240 I just couldn't. But but ari Astor's first two movies 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:10.199 I think are genuinely really good, and especially with Hereditary, 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:12.720 even though I've seen it fewer times than I've seen Midsummer, 0:10:12.880 --> 0:10:15.640 it's I mean, whether you like it or not, it's 0:10:15.679 --> 0:10:21.320 a very special, uniquely terrifying movie. The fact that it's 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:25.120 his first feature is absolutely wild. I was watching it 0:10:25.120 --> 0:10:29.559 with my boyfriend last night, and it it's almost frustrating 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:33.040 that this, like you know, this like male Otur who 0:10:33.360 --> 0:10:35.200 from what we can tell at the time this movie 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:37.960 came out, nothing meaningfully traumatizing has happened to him. He 0:10:38.040 --> 0:10:41.720 talks about that in interviews and then he makes this 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:46.120 and you're like, and it's good, Like that's so fucked, 0:10:46.360 --> 0:10:48.000 But I think it is. I think it's like a 0:10:48.040 --> 0:10:50.480 really special movie. Yeah. The first time I saw it, 0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:53.000 I sort of was like, I've seen it all, like 0:10:53.160 --> 0:10:56.679 fucking shock me. And it does. And it's like, kind 0:10:56.720 --> 0:11:00.600 of in a campy sense, fun to rewatch, where it's like, 0:11:01.480 --> 0:11:03.920 you know, on even the first rewatch, it is so 0:11:04.080 --> 0:11:07.920 obvious the horrible thing that's going to happen. He hints 0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:11.719 at it like a humorous amount of times to the 0:11:11.760 --> 0:11:13.520 point where it's like, I think this was my third 0:11:13.600 --> 0:11:16.480 viewing of it, and I did laugh when they do 0:11:16.559 --> 0:11:20.520 the set of like, and here's this poll in the street? Interesting? 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:25.439 And do you have your EpiPen? Interesting? Everything I like 0:11:25.600 --> 0:11:28.640 and dislike about ari Astors in this movie. I've watched 0:11:28.679 --> 0:11:33.240 this I've watched it now in three very different emotional spaces. 0:11:33.280 --> 0:11:35.560 I was having like a harder time with it this time, 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:38.360 but not because of the movie itself, just because of 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:41.000 sort of like some of the themes of grief and processing. 0:11:41.160 --> 0:11:44.160 Like I was having a difficult time with it, but 0:11:44.480 --> 0:11:48.360 I also think, Wow, another cat, and that's flee who's 0:11:48.360 --> 0:11:52.760 on one? Because Casper is in my bedroom and he's 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:54.680 going to knock things down until he can be with 0:11:54.720 --> 0:11:57.240 his brother, until he can be with his other paym on. 0:11:58.480 --> 0:12:01.200 But yeah, no, I I feel like this movie has 0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:05.240 hit me different every single time. It's always terrifying. This 0:12:05.280 --> 0:12:07.760 is the first time I've seen this movie since I 0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:12.280 have done a lot of research like Field and books 0:12:13.520 --> 0:12:16.760 with spiritualism, we don't read books, not for this show. 0:12:17.320 --> 0:12:22.320 But Caitlyn, I'm sorry, I'm so sorry. I've been cheating 0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:22.560 on you. 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:26.240 I've read You've been reading this whole time, this whole time. 0:12:26.720 --> 0:12:29.600 Yes, I released a podcast about the history of spiritualism 0:12:29.600 --> 0:12:31.920 two years ago and I hadn't watched it since and 0:12:32.000 --> 0:12:34.600 so like it was interesting to engage with on that level. 0:12:35.080 --> 0:12:38.640 I don't know, this movie is fucking terrifying, and I 0:12:38.880 --> 0:12:41.360 it's so it's so hard to talk about for this 0:12:41.480 --> 0:12:44.520 specific show because so many things I get to I'm like, 0:12:44.880 --> 0:12:48.640 I don't know. On this viewing, I think it's fascinating 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:51.680 and there's so much to talk about about how women 0:12:52.040 --> 0:12:57.440 and intergenerational trauma is shown in this story. And I 0:12:57.600 --> 0:13:01.240 still feel like it's weirdly a little left something to 0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:04.000 be desired and felt like a little trophy on the 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:08.200 on the witch side for me. But the family side 0:13:08.280 --> 0:13:09.600 was like, I mean, I feel like that's what ari 0:13:09.679 --> 0:13:15.000 Astor does best, is like terrifying family horror dynamics. When 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:17.760 it gets into the witchy stuff, it kind of loses 0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:21.640 me a little more. But I'm willing to be swung. 0:13:22.000 --> 0:13:25.160 I'm swayable here, Okay, But yeah, I like this movie. 0:13:25.240 --> 0:13:28.240 I just but every time I watch it, I feel differently. 0:13:29.559 --> 0:13:32.360 Well, I'm excited to dig in. No, I'm not I 0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:34.480 want to go watch Paddington instead. 0:13:34.640 --> 0:13:38.000 Well, fun fact listeners, Caitlin and I are going to 0:13:38.040 --> 0:13:42.280 see a twelve one am screening of Despicable be four. 0:13:42.960 --> 0:13:47.000 That's right today, So any any dread or sadness is 0:13:47.040 --> 0:13:49.440 about to be wiped clean. Your brain will never be 0:13:49.520 --> 0:13:53.199 smoother than at two oh one am. 0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:57.079 The best palette cleanser. Imaginable, little guys, but no, I 0:13:57.120 --> 0:13:59.239 think this will be a very interesting discussion. 0:13:59.400 --> 0:14:00.000 I'm excited. 0:14:00.280 --> 0:14:03.280 I do have a quick anecdote about the first time 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:04.640 that I saw in theaters. 0:14:04.960 --> 0:14:05.640 Oh yeah, yeah. 0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:09.440 So there is like this very good like it's not 0:14:09.480 --> 0:14:11.880 really a jump scare, but like a slow scare of 0:14:11.920 --> 0:14:15.600 like something in the background that slowly comes into focus 0:14:15.720 --> 0:14:16.720 towards the end of the movie. 0:14:16.880 --> 0:14:19.920 Yes, Tony Kollet hovering around the ceiling. 0:14:20.200 --> 0:14:23.400 Yeah yeah, yeah that. And when I saw it in 0:14:23.440 --> 0:14:27.360 the theaters, around that scene, there is a fly buzzing 0:14:27.640 --> 0:14:31.000 through the house and in the like surround sound of 0:14:31.040 --> 0:14:34.040 the theater, I literally thought there was a fly in 0:14:34.080 --> 0:14:37.440 the theater. So I was looking around being like, where 0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:40.600 is this fly? And I missed the first time I 0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:43.360 watched it, I missed the initial jump scare, and then 0:14:43.480 --> 0:14:46.760 everybody in the theater started gasping, and then I looked 0:14:46.760 --> 0:14:49.160 and I was like, what happened? And I was so 0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:52.840 mad about that. But I saw it later. 0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:55.920 But this is why I want to see it in theaters, 0:14:55.960 --> 0:14:58.440 because it's like, you can enjoy this movie and you 0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:02.440 can be terrified this movie at home on your humble roku. 0:15:02.520 --> 0:15:04.600 But I feel like you do. And I feel like 0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:07.280 that that's true of all of his or all two 0:15:07.360 --> 0:15:09.600 of his movies I've seen. It's like the sound design 0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:11.080 is very much a part of it. 0:15:11.880 --> 0:15:15.880 The soundtrack as well. Colin Stepson really committed to that. 0:15:16.480 --> 0:15:20.920 Unreal It's so good. Oh, this is like Mammy Trauma 0:15:21.000 --> 0:15:24.600 the movie, and I like it. 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:28.360 Mama Trauma. Let's take a quick break and then we'll 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:44.920 come back for the recap and we're back spooky times. 0:15:45.120 --> 0:15:45.880 Thank you Kman. 0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:51.160 Okay, here's the recap. I will place a content warning 0:15:51.400 --> 0:15:59.480 here for every suicide, for mental illness discussions. There are cults, 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:02.800 there's all kinds of scary things. There's lots of graphic violence. Yeah, truly, 0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:05.920 everything that might upset anyone. 0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:08.560 That is one of the things that this movie also 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:10.280 does that I kind of forgot about because it had 0:16:10.320 --> 0:16:13.720 been at least three years since I've seen it. That 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:17.800 always bothers me about Midsommar, a movie I generally really 0:16:17.840 --> 0:16:22.320 really like. But just like ari Astor loves to prescribe 0:16:22.360 --> 0:16:27.040 a specific mental illness to something that he doesn't know 0:16:27.080 --> 0:16:30.360 what he's talking about. He's done it at least twice. 0:16:30.480 --> 0:16:32.960 I yeah, sound off if he also does it in 0:16:33.000 --> 0:16:36.360 bo Is Afraid, but he does it with dissociative identity disorder. 0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:38.560 In this movie. He does it with bipolar disorder in 0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:41.440 the first couple of minutes of Midsommer, and I just 0:16:41.560 --> 0:16:45.120 wish he would stop stop that, because that's like a 0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:49.440 horror trope that is very subvertible that he has not done. 0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:52.120 I don't know, well, I mean, I think there's a 0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:55.680 much larger discussion to be had around mental illness as 0:16:55.720 --> 0:17:00.120 it's depicted in this movie, and how it conflates meant 0:17:00.280 --> 0:17:04.600 illness with evil oil. But we'll get there. 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:05.080 Sorr. 0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:08.520 Yeah, okay. So in this recap, also, I left out 0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:11.479 some stuff just because there's so much detail in this 0:17:11.560 --> 0:17:14.040 movie that I had to kind of leave some stuff out. Also, 0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:18.080 I realized when I was reading a piece about this 0:17:18.160 --> 0:17:22.240 movie that's like summarizing the plot, I'm like, Oh, there's 0:17:22.280 --> 0:17:24.560 a whole thing that I didn't even understand or that 0:17:24.680 --> 0:17:30.040 didn't connect for me, So this recap might be kind 0:17:30.040 --> 0:17:30.520 of shitty. 0:17:31.240 --> 0:17:34.520 Well, Pulam, You're welcome to jump in whenever too. 0:17:35.040 --> 0:17:40.879 Yes. So we open on text on the screen, which 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:44.800 is an obituary of Eileen Lee saying that she is 0:17:45.080 --> 0:17:49.600 survived by her daughter Annie, her son in law, and 0:17:49.920 --> 0:17:53.320 their two kids. We meet this family at their home. 0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:58.720 Annie is played by Tony Kolett, her husband Steve is 0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:05.840 gabriel Byrne. Their seventeen year old son Peter played by 0:18:05.960 --> 0:18:07.000 Alex Wolfe. 0:18:06.800 --> 0:18:10.760 Aka one half of The Naked Brother's Band Pluma. Did 0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:13.399 you watch that show when we were kids? No? 0:18:13.520 --> 0:18:13.960 I did not. 0:18:14.840 --> 0:18:19.560 Oh my god, there was a Nickelodeon tween show called 0:18:19.560 --> 0:18:23.119 The Naked Brothers Band starring Alex Wolf and his brother 0:18:23.280 --> 0:18:28.000 Nat and my brother and I were so invested in 0:18:28.040 --> 0:18:31.160 the Naked Brother's Band. Very weird that they called it that. Yeah, 0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:34.280 but it was about like two young brothers and like 0:18:34.320 --> 0:18:36.840 Alex Wolf is literally I think like eight or nine 0:18:36.880 --> 0:18:39.080 in the series, and he's like, I want to play 0:18:39.119 --> 0:18:41.560 the drums. And so that was the only thing i'd 0:18:41.600 --> 0:18:43.720 ever seen him in, and then he was in Hereditary. 0:18:43.960 --> 0:18:47.040 So he's got range, which. 0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:51.560 I know him as kid from Jumanji, the newer Jumanji movies. 0:18:51.840 --> 0:18:54.800 Oh see, I kind of forgot about that. Yeah, so yeah, 0:18:54.920 --> 0:18:57.639 he's he's got range. She's in all kind I hear though, 0:18:57.880 --> 0:19:00.480 based on what Tony Kollett said about working with him, 0:19:00.560 --> 0:19:04.479 if I'm recalling correctly, he's an asshole. Oh no, what 0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:06.919 can you do? Damn? What can you do? 0:19:07.200 --> 0:19:10.320 So that's Peter played by Alex Wolf, and then their 0:19:10.359 --> 0:19:15.320 thirteen year old daughter, Charlie played by Millie Shapiro. They 0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:20.160 are getting ready to head to Annie's mother's funeral. We 0:19:20.240 --> 0:19:24.119 cut to the funeral where Annie gives a eulogy about 0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:29.680 her mother, how Eileen was a very private, secretive person, 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:32.639 and the vibes are weird. At the funeral, there's a 0:19:32.640 --> 0:19:36.840 lot of people who Annie doesn't recognize and a strange 0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:41.520 symbol on a necklace that Eileen is wearing. And it's 0:19:41.560 --> 0:19:46.320 also here where it's established that Charlie has a nut allergy. 0:19:46.720 --> 0:19:51.320 There's also a lot of adults smiling weirdly at Charlie. 0:19:51.680 --> 0:19:54.679 Yes, yes, there are I love this movie is like 0:19:54.880 --> 0:19:58.560 so I liked it this time, Like this movie is 0:19:58.680 --> 0:20:03.440 so paranoi at every level, and the fact that everyone's 0:20:03.480 --> 0:20:06.880 paranoia or like all of the characters who's were invested 0:20:06.920 --> 0:20:10.199 in really like they're paranoia and everyone's worst fear is 0:20:10.320 --> 0:20:15.239 true and then some and it almost feels, I don't know, 0:20:15.760 --> 0:20:18.760 it felt cathartic on this watch to be like, yeah, 0:20:18.880 --> 0:20:21.560 the most fucked up thing I could imagine is going 0:20:21.640 --> 0:20:24.680 to happen tomorrow. It's true for everyone. 0:20:24.840 --> 0:20:27.080 It tells you exactly what it is going to be 0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:30.879 the entire time, but then does something a little bit 0:20:30.880 --> 0:20:33.000 different than what you think it's going to do at 0:20:33.000 --> 0:20:34.200 each turn, right. 0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:38.399 It does subvert a lot of horror movie troupes. Like 0:20:38.440 --> 0:20:43.640 there's a dog in the movie, Rex the dog icon who. 0:20:43.320 --> 0:20:44.000 He makes it? 0:20:44.000 --> 0:20:44.560 Survives? 0:20:44.760 --> 0:20:45.439 No he doesn't? 0:20:46.040 --> 0:20:48.600 Does not? Wait what happened to the dog? 0:20:49.119 --> 0:20:50.040 No? Is it? 0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:52.800 Viewing number six where you figure out that Rex. 0:20:52.760 --> 0:20:54.800 Didn't make it at the very end, And I was 0:20:54.880 --> 0:20:58.040 laughing about this when I was watching it last night. 0:20:58.359 --> 0:21:00.960 They just like show Rex's body like in like the 0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:03.919 last scene, like very in passing being like just so 0:21:03.960 --> 0:21:05.680 you know, we killed the dog too. 0:21:07.119 --> 0:21:09.919 I kind of do think that, like you're I don't know, 0:21:10.400 --> 0:21:12.600 arist he's kind of a real one for that, he's 0:21:12.640 --> 0:21:16.080 a fake dog, so I know that whatever. I think 0:21:16.080 --> 0:21:18.600 that's kind of funny. I thought that, Yeah, like this 0:21:18.960 --> 0:21:22.719 the thing that feels like on the rewatch, you're like, oh, 0:21:22.760 --> 0:21:25.399 like all of the normal fake outs of like is 0:21:25.440 --> 0:21:29.159 this the creepy person but it's never the creepy person 0:21:29.200 --> 0:21:31.639 in the first scene, but in this movie, it is 0:21:31.680 --> 0:21:34.560 the creepy person in the first scene. They're also the 0:21:34.560 --> 0:21:35.879 creepy person in the last. 0:21:36.280 --> 0:21:36.520 Yeah. 0:21:37.400 --> 0:21:39.280 Well, it's all many creepy people. 0:21:39.520 --> 0:21:40.240 Yeah, in general. 0:21:41.359 --> 0:21:43.800 Oh, poor Rex the Dog. I well, I'm glad I 0:21:43.840 --> 0:21:46.480 missed it. I did not see the demise of Rex 0:21:46.520 --> 0:21:46.880 the Dog. 0:21:46.960 --> 0:21:48.879 And there's a lot of other things going on. 0:21:51.160 --> 0:21:56.760 There. Yes, yeah, Gabriel Burn is fully engulfed in flames 0:21:56.800 --> 0:22:00.119 at one point. That's the Those are the moment we're 0:22:00.119 --> 0:22:03.119 going to discuss shortly, and that are the two moments 0:22:03.119 --> 0:22:05.879 where I still gasp even when I know it's coming. 0:22:06.320 --> 0:22:07.000 Yeah. 0:22:07.160 --> 0:22:11.919 Oh okay, So the funeral is weird, and then the 0:22:11.960 --> 0:22:15.880 family returns home. We learn that Annie is an artist 0:22:15.960 --> 0:22:21.840 who creates miniatures, mostly depicting scenes from her life, her 0:22:21.880 --> 0:22:26.880 past and present. That night, Annie tucks Charlie in. They 0:22:26.920 --> 0:22:31.919 talk about Charlie's relationship with her grandmother, how Charlie was 0:22:31.960 --> 0:22:35.960 her grandmother's favorite, though she wanted Charlie to be a boy, 0:22:36.760 --> 0:22:40.360 and this is the beginning of a conversation revolving around 0:22:41.320 --> 0:22:50.120 gender and payman, so we'll examine that later. Finally, finally, finally, 0:22:50.880 --> 0:22:54.560 then Annie goes through some of her mother's things, like 0:22:54.760 --> 0:22:59.000 a book called Notes on Spiritualism, and there's a cryptic 0:22:59.119 --> 0:23:04.320 note inside to Annie from her mother about sacrifice and reward, 0:23:04.560 --> 0:23:08.240 and we're like, what's this about. Then Annie thinks she 0:23:08.280 --> 0:23:12.760 sees her mother's ghost. Then we see this miniature that 0:23:12.800 --> 0:23:17.440 Annie made depicting her mother trying to breastfeed baby Charlie, 0:23:17.600 --> 0:23:20.840 something that Annie had referenced a few moments before, but 0:23:20.880 --> 0:23:23.000 we didn't really know to what extent. And then we 0:23:23.040 --> 0:23:25.040 see this dirama. 0:23:25.400 --> 0:23:30.439 Basically Anne, I wrote this, Dad that like, if Annie 0:23:30.520 --> 0:23:33.320 were a real life artist, I would for sure have 0:23:33.400 --> 0:23:38.199 written an annoying paper about her in college, like I 0:23:38.200 --> 0:23:40.920 would have been like it would have been some sort 0:23:40.920 --> 0:23:45.400 of interesting gateway like miniatures as women experience. Anyone ever 0:23:45.440 --> 0:23:48.240 think of this one before? And but I love, I 0:23:48.280 --> 0:23:51.160 mean that's like a recurring theme in ari Astro's work too, 0:23:51.280 --> 0:23:55.560 is like miniatures inside of miniatures. And I also love 0:23:55.680 --> 0:23:59.879 Tony Kollett's like little I don't know, scary magne. 0:23:59.720 --> 0:24:02.280 Like glasses, magnifying glasses. 0:24:02.359 --> 0:24:05.639 Yeah, her like steampunk I thing I don't know. 0:24:07.160 --> 0:24:12.320 Okay. So then some more freaky stuff happens at school. 0:24:12.560 --> 0:24:16.280 Charlie cuts the head off of a dead bird. She 0:24:16.560 --> 0:24:20.560 will later make a doll type thing with it. Charlie 0:24:20.920 --> 0:24:23.480 takes after her mother as far as like being creative 0:24:23.680 --> 0:24:28.119 and artistic expression. Charlie has a whole collection of her 0:24:28.560 --> 0:24:35.359 mostly disturbing creations in her room. Also, there are creepy 0:24:35.440 --> 0:24:40.160 people lurking around at school and in the woods near 0:24:40.200 --> 0:24:43.560 their house. Strange symbols and words are popping up on 0:24:43.880 --> 0:24:48.040 the floors and walls of the house. The grandmother's grave 0:24:48.560 --> 0:24:53.480 apparently was desecrated. There's also this like light shimmer thing 0:24:53.800 --> 0:24:57.280 that we'll see now and then that kind of moves 0:24:57.320 --> 0:25:02.360 about autonomously. We don't really know what it is at first. 0:25:03.080 --> 0:25:06.919 Is it Payman? I don't know. Then Annie goes to 0:25:07.440 --> 0:25:11.119 a grief support group. We learn that Annie had a 0:25:11.200 --> 0:25:16.160 very strained relationship with her mother, and that Annie's mother, father, 0:25:16.280 --> 0:25:22.720 and brother all had pretty severe mental illnesses. Peter then 0:25:22.800 --> 0:25:26.520 gets invited to a party and Annie makes him take 0:25:26.800 --> 0:25:31.800 Charlie along. It seems like Charlie might have difficulty socializing 0:25:31.840 --> 0:25:34.679 with other kids, so Annie is like insistent that she 0:25:34.960 --> 0:25:35.960 go and socialize. 0:25:36.280 --> 0:25:40.680 Right, She's thirteen, so like, show me a socially functional 0:25:40.760 --> 0:25:41.560 thirteen year old. 0:25:41.760 --> 0:25:44.600 This is also after she's been like caught just like 0:25:45.040 --> 0:25:50.560 following a light barefoot in the yard and Annie needs 0:25:50.600 --> 0:25:53.679 to do this like project for this gallery and she's like, 0:25:53.760 --> 0:25:56.120 oh my god, why are you outside barefoot? I can't 0:25:56.119 --> 0:25:56.960 deal with this right now? 0:25:57.440 --> 0:26:01.320 Yeah, like, someone take charge of her. Although every time 0:26:01.359 --> 0:26:05.440 with Annie in this seed, I'm like, come on, mom, 0:26:05.760 --> 0:26:10.120 where she's she's like, okay, my seventeen year old stoner 0:26:10.200 --> 0:26:15.440 son definitely don't smoke weed. And You're like, I mean, 0:26:15.600 --> 0:26:19.200 I know it happens, but I'm like, come on, come on, 0:26:19.680 --> 0:26:23.960 I mean you know the consequence is outsized, but yeah, 0:26:24.000 --> 0:26:26.360 what you know, right, I don't know how she expected 0:26:26.400 --> 0:26:28.240 a neutral result. 0:26:28.480 --> 0:26:33.280 Right, Okay. So at the party, Charlie eats cake that 0:26:33.440 --> 0:26:36.800 turns out to have nuts, and she has a severe 0:26:36.920 --> 0:26:42.280 allergic reaction. So Peter rushes her out. He's speeding to 0:26:42.359 --> 0:26:48.560 a hospital, and then we get the scene where Charlie 0:26:48.560 --> 0:26:51.840 can't breathe, so she rolls down the window and sticks 0:26:51.840 --> 0:26:54.639 her head out of the window. There's something in the 0:26:54.720 --> 0:26:58.040 road at that very moment, so Peter swerves to miss it, 0:26:58.240 --> 0:27:03.040 causing Charlie to be decapitated by a telephone poll. 0:27:03.359 --> 0:27:05.320 And then this is the point where everyone in the 0:27:05.359 --> 0:27:09.800 movie is like, oh, oh, so it's that kind of movie. 0:27:10.440 --> 0:27:13.160 Yeah, the rules have changed, the shift has happened. 0:27:13.400 --> 0:27:17.880 Yeah, I mean, because these are fake people, I feel 0:27:17.960 --> 0:27:21.440 comfortable saying that's fucking awesome, Like you just don't see 0:27:21.440 --> 0:27:25.120 it coming, and it's just like it's so no matter 0:27:25.119 --> 0:27:27.400 how many times you see it, it's shocking the way 0:27:27.400 --> 0:27:30.680 that it's done. I like, I don't know, because I 0:27:30.720 --> 0:27:33.119 didn't I've of the three times i've seen it, I 0:27:33.160 --> 0:27:36.120 only actually watched that the first time because I didn't 0:27:36.160 --> 0:27:37.960 know it was coming. Now I know to look away, 0:27:38.760 --> 0:27:41.200 But my memory of it is that it's very it's 0:27:41.240 --> 0:27:46.240 like almost campy practical effectie, which is probably the smarter decision, 0:27:46.280 --> 0:27:48.920 But I honestly don't know, because when I watched it yesterday, 0:27:49.000 --> 0:27:50.720 I was like ah No. 0:27:50.640 --> 0:27:53.960 It's not that camp. I mean maybe, but it also 0:27:54.000 --> 0:27:59.360 gets such a visceral, horrific response that it feels. 0:27:59.119 --> 0:28:03.160 Well as a horror head. Is it goofy or is it? 0:28:03.880 --> 0:28:05.800 I feel like, so this is not the thing that 0:28:06.080 --> 0:28:08.840 I also feel like what scares people is really subjective, 0:28:08.880 --> 0:28:11.719 So what scares me is not like what scares all 0:28:11.720 --> 0:28:14.680 horror people. But this did not scare me. This wasn't 0:28:14.680 --> 0:28:17.520 the I was like, oh, but I feel like it 0:28:17.600 --> 0:28:20.600 was effective because and I've thought about this a lot. 0:28:21.040 --> 0:28:25.359 Why people get shocked, it's because I think you have 0:28:25.440 --> 0:28:29.920 so much anxiety from the like allergic reaction, anaphylactic shock, 0:28:29.960 --> 0:28:32.800 whatever's happening with the nuts, and you're worried that that 0:28:33.000 --> 0:28:35.120 is going to kill her, and you're really really focused 0:28:35.160 --> 0:28:37.120 on is she going to make it to the hospital. 0:28:37.240 --> 0:28:40.600 The music is also going off, and so this thing 0:28:41.120 --> 0:28:45.320 is now like a second not forecasted, well forecasted if 0:28:45.320 --> 0:28:48.360 you have seen it, but not otherwise forecasted thing that 0:28:48.480 --> 0:28:52.240 just like happens really suddenly. And I think the scariest 0:28:52.320 --> 0:28:55.520 part is because you don't see it. You just see 0:28:55.560 --> 0:28:57.880 his reaction and you feel like the weight of it, 0:28:58.480 --> 0:29:01.600 and then you get to hear and see everyone's reactions. 0:29:01.920 --> 0:29:05.200 And then the jump scare is when they show you 0:29:05.400 --> 0:29:07.080 the rotting head on the street. 0:29:07.200 --> 0:29:09.920 Yes, that does happen too, which is which is somehow 0:29:10.000 --> 0:29:13.080 like I don't know why that was like less. I 0:29:13.120 --> 0:29:15.280 don't know. Maybe it's because I saw this movie after 0:29:15.320 --> 0:29:19.400 I'd already seen Midsommar and it's just like, yeah, he's 0:29:19.440 --> 0:29:22.959 gonna do this. He loves fly on head. And they 0:29:23.040 --> 0:29:26.680 keep returning to that image too, of like the symbolism 0:29:26.760 --> 0:29:29.560 of like a rotting person. 0:29:29.880 --> 0:29:32.560 Well also the answer like a paymon thing. 0:29:33.120 --> 0:29:37.240 Like there's so much I don't so many references. I 0:29:37.280 --> 0:29:40.440 don't get. You do see her head come off, though, 0:29:40.960 --> 0:29:44.840 unless I watched like a director's cut or something, you 0:29:44.880 --> 0:29:48.720 see like her her head hit the pole and come off. 0:29:49.080 --> 0:29:50.360 I thought it was like a silhouette. 0:29:50.760 --> 0:29:54.240 I mean, it's enough that you like, definitely see what happens. 0:29:54.800 --> 0:29:58.480 Sure I haven't. I haven't voluntarily watched it in five years, 0:29:58.520 --> 0:30:01.960 so I cannot speak. I just but I know whatever 0:30:02.000 --> 0:30:04.160 I saw the first time was enough that I was like, look, 0:30:04.200 --> 0:30:06.720 I can't, I'm not gonna do it. But that's part 0:30:06.760 --> 0:30:09.200 of why I like watching card movies is the parts 0:30:09.240 --> 0:30:12.800 that are impossible to watch right right. 0:30:13.480 --> 0:30:16.840 The point is though, that Peter is in utter shock 0:30:17.080 --> 0:30:20.400 after this, and he just kind of drives home and 0:30:20.480 --> 0:30:24.480 goes to bed, hoping that it didn't actually happen. But 0:30:24.560 --> 0:30:28.719 the next morning Annie discovers Charlie's body in the car. 0:30:28.920 --> 0:30:31.560 That's the most horrific moment of the movie to me 0:30:31.720 --> 0:30:34.440 is watching that long shot of Peter in bed and 0:30:34.600 --> 0:30:38.360 just like seeing him internally count down the moments until 0:30:38.360 --> 0:30:43.320 his life is over. Basically, yes, it's just so horrible. 0:30:43.560 --> 0:30:46.720 It's so horrible. And then you see the shot of 0:30:47.040 --> 0:30:51.480 Charlie's severed head. There's ants crawling all over it. It's 0:30:51.520 --> 0:30:54.280 truly like one of the most haunting images I've ever 0:30:54.320 --> 0:30:55.440 seen in a movie. 0:30:55.600 --> 0:30:58.160 I hope Millie Shapiro, if she wanted it. 0:30:58.200 --> 0:31:00.960 Got that head about the prop head. 0:31:01.160 --> 0:31:03.840 If I was her, if I was like a child 0:31:03.920 --> 0:31:06.280 actor in a horror movie, I'd be like, give me 0:31:06.360 --> 0:31:08.040 the head. I want the head. 0:31:09.160 --> 0:31:13.080 Also, like that guttural scream is like something that Ari 0:31:13.160 --> 0:31:16.680 Astor used again in Midsommar, and it is like so 0:31:17.880 --> 0:31:22.960 effective because it touches like the deepest, like animal part 0:31:23.080 --> 0:31:27.480 of you that like feels aversion to like the warning 0:31:28.160 --> 0:31:29.840 scream of another human. 0:31:30.640 --> 0:31:35.880 Yeah, for sure. I mean that without Tony Kollett's like ability, Like, 0:31:36.080 --> 0:31:41.760 this movie is way less effective if anyone's half assing 0:31:41.800 --> 0:31:45.360 that role because it's like she in like however, many 0:31:45.440 --> 0:31:50.880 scenes she's like making sounds and expressions that like almost 0:31:51.160 --> 0:31:56.360 feel inhuman but also but really human or maybe superhuman 0:31:56.480 --> 0:31:59.480 whatever it is, like, it's just it's it's terrifying. 0:32:00.120 --> 0:32:04.360 Like again, give her an Oscar such an incredible performance. 0:32:04.520 --> 0:32:06.440 She's awesome, and this was an even I mean I 0:32:06.520 --> 0:32:09.560 thought of I guess, like you know, Tony Kleett was 0:32:09.600 --> 0:32:12.960 such a successful character actor at this time, I think 0:32:13.000 --> 0:32:16.320 you would rarely see her outside of TV in like 0:32:16.440 --> 0:32:19.160 leading roles. But I think I first saw her in 0:32:19.200 --> 0:32:21.800 The Sixth Sense, where she was also playing a horror 0:32:21.800 --> 0:32:24.920 movie mom, but very different. 0:32:26.280 --> 0:32:29.600 But yeah, she does a great job communicating the just 0:32:29.920 --> 0:32:34.640 grief and devastation that she and her whole family are feeling. 0:32:34.880 --> 0:32:38.920 She is your mother, She is your mother. Everyone is devastated. 0:32:39.400 --> 0:32:43.840 Peter is very guilt stricken. An he goes back to 0:32:44.520 --> 0:32:47.680 the support group where she meets a woman named Joan 0:32:47.920 --> 0:32:53.600 played by Anne Dowd, whose son and grandson died recently. 0:32:54.360 --> 0:32:57.400 She gives Annie her number in case Annie needs someone 0:32:57.440 --> 0:33:01.120 to talk to. Annie and Joan then get together and 0:33:01.240 --> 0:33:05.760 Annie tells her a story about an instance that happened 0:33:05.760 --> 0:33:10.080 a few years back where while Annie was sleepwalking, she 0:33:10.120 --> 0:33:14.600 apparently doused herself and Peter and Charlie in paint thinner 0:33:15.200 --> 0:33:18.560 and was about to light them on fire while she 0:33:18.680 --> 0:33:22.400 was sleeping, but woke up when she struck the match. 0:33:22.600 --> 0:33:26.440 I do love how this information is introduced, because it's like, 0:33:26.720 --> 0:33:31.920 there's so many critical, horrific pieces of information introduced mid 0:33:32.000 --> 0:33:35.600 Tony Collette Ramble, and then she just always keeps going 0:33:35.600 --> 0:33:37.760 and you're like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, what what 0:33:37.800 --> 0:33:40.160 did you say? What did you do? It's great, it's great, 0:33:40.240 --> 0:33:41.720 but to her, it's like, so this. 0:33:41.720 --> 0:33:45.480 Happened, and she's describing how she was just as shocked 0:33:45.480 --> 0:33:48.440 as her kids were, but Peter has held it against 0:33:48.440 --> 0:33:49.200 her ever since. 0:33:49.800 --> 0:33:53.160 I feel like this movie does a great, like, I 0:33:53.200 --> 0:33:55.640 don't know, representation of how like we have our own 0:33:55.640 --> 0:33:57.719 family histories and our personal histories that we think are 0:33:57.760 --> 0:34:01.240 totally normal and downplay, and it's not until you tell 0:34:01.240 --> 0:34:05.080 it to another person that you realize that it's kind 0:34:05.080 --> 0:34:08.719 of messed up. And this happens repeatedly that she does, 0:34:09.200 --> 0:34:11.960 and the other person is like the viewer who's like, 0:34:12.040 --> 0:34:14.440 hang on, but you never get to hang on because 0:34:14.440 --> 0:34:16.200 they just keep they roll past it. 0:34:16.120 --> 0:34:16.920 They just keep barreling. 0:34:17.080 --> 0:34:21.440 That's true part of what I am really like drawn 0:34:21.520 --> 0:34:24.360 to about Annie's character. She's like the most extreme example 0:34:24.400 --> 0:34:26.160 of that. And you can see so much in her 0:34:26.200 --> 0:34:30.760 own art that she is trying to process these things. 0:34:31.200 --> 0:34:35.400 But it's not clear if she feels it feels like, 0:34:35.560 --> 0:34:37.360 at least to be at different. At most points, it 0:34:37.400 --> 0:34:39.920 feels like she is kind of in denial that her 0:34:40.040 --> 0:34:42.520 art is a way of processing her life. She's just 0:34:42.560 --> 0:34:45.000 sort of like, this is my work and this is 0:34:45.040 --> 0:34:49.120 my life, when they're so clearly interconnected, but she's using 0:34:49.200 --> 0:34:51.440 her I don't know. I'm really excited to talk about 0:34:51.560 --> 0:34:55.200 like women in art as a way of like synthesizing 0:34:55.239 --> 0:34:58.359 your life, because I just I don't know. I think 0:34:58.400 --> 0:35:01.320 this movie does it in a really interesting way because 0:35:01.360 --> 0:35:03.680 in most ways, when Annie's talking about her art, whether 0:35:03.719 --> 0:35:08.200 it's to her husband, who's really the only person we 0:35:08.239 --> 0:35:11.560 see her talk to about it, she is sort of like, well, 0:35:11.560 --> 0:35:14.160 what do you mean this is my work? Like this 0:35:14.200 --> 0:35:16.920 is a this is a neutral presentation and just like 0:35:17.160 --> 0:35:20.960 the most fucked up thing you've ever seen, and you're like, Annie, Annie, Annie, 0:35:21.239 --> 0:35:21.759 this is right. 0:35:21.840 --> 0:35:25.480 This happens. This happens next in the story where Annie 0:35:25.560 --> 0:35:31.320 is making a miniature of Charlie's accident with the head 0:35:31.360 --> 0:35:34.719 on the ground and everything, and her husband Steve comes in. 0:35:34.840 --> 0:35:37.680 He's like what the fuck Annie? And she's like what 0:35:37.840 --> 0:35:41.360 this isn't He's like, don't let Peter see that, and 0:35:41.400 --> 0:35:43.160 she's like, what this isn't about him? This is a 0:35:43.200 --> 0:35:47.120 neutral presentation of the accident, and it's like, rip Steve. 0:35:47.440 --> 0:35:51.920 She hates therapy, and it shows. 0:35:52.560 --> 0:35:58.680 Steve is processing grief honestly, like you know, rip to Steve. 0:35:59.120 --> 0:36:02.239 He did his best. He did his best. He was like, 0:36:02.320 --> 0:36:05.120 consider our son, and Annie was like, no, no. 0:36:06.600 --> 0:36:08.680 My husband and I were talking about at what point 0:36:08.920 --> 0:36:12.800 would we have left each other in the situation. Uh huh, 0:36:12.920 --> 0:36:16.279 We'll get to it. But there's an outburst that I 0:36:16.320 --> 0:36:18.759 think I would have been like, we're going to my 0:36:18.840 --> 0:36:21.600 mom's and you need to go work that one out. 0:36:22.120 --> 0:36:25.720 M yeah, yeah, like he would have been the tricky 0:36:25.719 --> 0:36:28.680 thing is like their kid. But it's like, if I'm Steve. 0:36:28.719 --> 0:36:31.240 I also thought that this is like, if I'm Steve, 0:36:31.320 --> 0:36:34.640 I'm like, you know, Peter and I. It's tricky though, 0:36:34.640 --> 0:36:38.000 because then you're leaving Annie by herself and t'sau without 0:36:38.000 --> 0:36:40.680 a support system. But it's like, you gotta It seems 0:36:40.719 --> 0:36:42.959 like Steve is trying to do the right thing, which 0:36:43.000 --> 0:36:46.520 just think about his kid, but he's kind of thwarted 0:36:46.560 --> 0:36:49.919 at every turn when it comes to trying to act 0:36:49.960 --> 0:36:51.919 in the best interests of his kid. Not to say 0:36:51.920 --> 0:36:54.960 that he couldn't have done better, but he was doing 0:36:55.000 --> 0:36:56.640 his best if it was just the two of them. 0:36:56.680 --> 0:37:01.120 If I'm Steve, I'm like, I'm going to Disneyland, Like 0:37:01.200 --> 0:37:03.520 I don't know, I'm going, I'm going somewhere. 0:37:03.800 --> 0:37:06.000 I feel like the turning point really was I think 0:37:06.040 --> 0:37:11.759 that she was becoming harmful to the kid's healing process, 0:37:11.880 --> 0:37:14.239 and you know, like I feel like it would be 0:37:14.320 --> 0:37:16.319 like for the sake of the kid that I would 0:37:16.360 --> 0:37:18.240 want to get out of that situation. 0:37:18.719 --> 0:37:21.439 The scene which we're coming up on soon. But when 0:37:22.080 --> 0:37:26.080 she like forces them to participate in a seance with her, 0:37:26.800 --> 0:37:31.200 and Peter's like very visibly upset, It's like, Okay, we 0:37:31.320 --> 0:37:33.440 need to maybe not be doing this. 0:37:33.600 --> 0:37:35.759 Tony Kolett that was my husband's point. 0:37:36.239 --> 0:37:41.120 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean because Steve really does try to, like, 0:37:41.920 --> 0:37:43.759 you know, he goes with her as far as he 0:37:43.800 --> 0:37:47.960 could go before drawing the line, and by that point it's. 0:37:47.880 --> 0:37:51.440 Unfortunately too late. But I don't know, yeah, I you know, 0:37:51.719 --> 0:37:54.200 like we're not parents. I can't say for sure, but 0:37:54.719 --> 0:37:57.680 it just seems like Steve was trying to do his best. 0:37:57.719 --> 0:38:01.200 And there's an interesting like choice in and maybe it's 0:38:01.239 --> 0:38:04.920 just like logistical our writing choice from ari Astor where 0:38:05.400 --> 0:38:08.239 Steve is like kind of a flat character in a 0:38:08.280 --> 0:38:10.960 lot of ways, where we're not led to believe that 0:38:11.000 --> 0:38:14.759 Steve has a support system to turn to. It's just 0:38:14.840 --> 0:38:19.120 everything is taking place inside of this miniature, and everything 0:38:19.160 --> 0:38:22.440 outside of the miniature is a little bit nebulous and 0:38:22.520 --> 0:38:24.919 confusing because we're not led to believe that Steve has 0:38:25.040 --> 0:38:28.680 family members or friends that he could really go to 0:38:28.800 --> 0:38:31.360 or that he feels comfortable going to about this, and 0:38:31.400 --> 0:38:35.400 so he's also kind of a prisoner in this dynamic, 0:38:35.440 --> 0:38:39.320 which is a real thing, just thankfully not pam on real. 0:38:40.760 --> 0:38:43.360 Right, Yeah, isolation is really important for this. 0:38:44.120 --> 0:38:45.520 Yeah. 0:38:45.560 --> 0:38:50.400 So the next thing is a dinner scene where Peter 0:38:50.640 --> 0:38:53.680 and Annie yell at each other and blame each other 0:38:53.840 --> 0:38:58.000 for the accident, and no one accepts any kind of 0:38:58.400 --> 0:39:02.359 accountability for any thing. This is something that Annie is 0:39:03.000 --> 0:39:06.440 kind of lashing out about, and so things are very 0:39:06.520 --> 0:39:09.040 very tense among the family. 0:39:09.160 --> 0:39:11.759 Tony Collette is so good in that scene. 0:39:11.480 --> 0:39:13.560 And it's amazing, I'm your mother. 0:39:14.400 --> 0:39:15.760 It's a meme for a reason. 0:39:18.000 --> 0:39:22.480 Then Annie runs into Joan again, who had recently met 0:39:22.680 --> 0:39:27.600 a spiritual medium who does seances, and the medium conjured 0:39:27.920 --> 0:39:31.759 the spirit of Joan's grandson, and so Joan is trying 0:39:31.760 --> 0:39:34.520 to convince Annie to come over, and she does, and 0:39:34.600 --> 0:39:40.360 Joan performs a seance and summons her grandson again. Annie 0:39:40.880 --> 0:39:44.920 gets freaked out and leaves. Then we see a scene 0:39:44.960 --> 0:39:49.960 where Annie has some scary dreams. She has sleepwalked into 0:39:49.960 --> 0:39:53.879 Peter's room again. She lets it slip that she never 0:39:53.920 --> 0:39:57.400 wanted to be his mother, that her mother pressured her 0:39:57.440 --> 0:40:00.680 into having kids. Annie tried to have a misc It 0:40:00.719 --> 0:40:03.440 turns out that Annie telling Peter all of this was 0:40:03.520 --> 0:40:05.960 also just a dream, but it's not clear if that 0:40:06.280 --> 0:40:10.840 is actually something that happened or not because it's framed 0:40:10.840 --> 0:40:13.240 as a dream, so we don't totally know, but based 0:40:13.239 --> 0:40:16.200 on the events of the story, we can maybe glean 0:40:16.360 --> 0:40:19.600 that that was true for Annie. Not sure, but anyway. 0:40:20.120 --> 0:40:25.480 Then Annie gets Steve and Peter together and performs a seance. 0:40:25.960 --> 0:40:30.680 They are skeptical and upset. Peter is very scared, and 0:40:31.200 --> 0:40:36.359 it seems like Annie summons Charlie's spirit using something that 0:40:36.400 --> 0:40:39.320 belonged to Charlie, which is a notebook that she used 0:40:39.360 --> 0:40:43.680 to sketch in and this summoning of the spirit seems 0:40:43.719 --> 0:40:48.160 to work, but then things go wrong where Charlie kind 0:40:48.160 --> 0:40:52.000 of embodies Annie and it's weird and scary. 0:40:52.440 --> 0:40:55.040 My favorite line from the movie is when Peter in 0:40:55.080 --> 0:40:58.200 that scene is going can't you feel it the air flexing? 0:40:58.920 --> 0:41:03.400 And I was like, ooh, it is like the most 0:41:03.480 --> 0:41:07.239 like accurate but also like teenage boy way of describing 0:41:07.880 --> 0:41:09.600 what is happening. M h. 0:41:11.120 --> 0:41:15.800 And then things really start to fall apart for the family. 0:41:16.400 --> 0:41:22.720 From this point on, Annie discovers that notebook of Charlie's, 0:41:23.520 --> 0:41:26.680 where her spirit seems to be drawing a bunch of 0:41:26.719 --> 0:41:30.520 pictures of Peter with his eyes crossed out. Not a 0:41:30.560 --> 0:41:34.160 great omen. Annie thinks she might be able to stop 0:41:34.200 --> 0:41:37.040 all of this if she burns the notebook, but when 0:41:37.080 --> 0:41:39.879 she tries to throw it in the fire. Her arm 0:41:40.120 --> 0:41:44.240 catches fire, as if she and the notebook share some link. 0:41:44.880 --> 0:41:48.480 Then Annie goes through her mother's stuff again and finds 0:41:48.680 --> 0:41:53.040 photos of her mother with Joan. Turns out that Joan 0:41:53.200 --> 0:41:58.200 knew Eileen all along. There are photos depicting them participating 0:41:58.239 --> 0:42:02.560 in some kind of ritual. There are strange symbols. There 0:42:02.560 --> 0:42:06.200 are books on the occult, and Annie reads a passage 0:42:06.600 --> 0:42:11.600 about someone named King Payman, one of the eight Kings 0:42:11.640 --> 0:42:18.040 of Hell, and he needs a vulnerable host to inhabit 0:42:18.280 --> 0:42:25.520 or possess, specifically a male host, and we're like, hmm, Peter, 0:42:26.719 --> 0:42:30.879 question mark. Then Annie goes up to the attic, where 0:42:30.920 --> 0:42:35.000 she finds the rotten corpse of possibly her dead mother, 0:42:35.120 --> 0:42:38.960 although the head has been removed so we can't really 0:42:39.080 --> 0:42:43.560 id her at this time now. Meanwhile, at school, Peter, 0:42:44.160 --> 0:42:49.320 as if possessed by some sinister spirit, bashes his own 0:42:49.600 --> 0:42:51.640 face against his desk. 0:42:52.000 --> 0:42:55.000 This is another case of classic ari astor what's the 0:42:55.040 --> 0:42:57.959 most fucked up thing I could think to do right now? 0:42:58.640 --> 0:43:01.360 This is also right after he sees his own reflection 0:43:01.640 --> 0:43:04.480 in like a cabinet, and the reflection is smiling at him. 0:43:04.520 --> 0:43:08.000 That really scared me, I feel scared thinking about it now. 0:43:08.360 --> 0:43:10.680 I feel like that was used for the trailer when 0:43:10.719 --> 0:43:13.520 they were promoting this movie. Yeah, I kind of remember that. 0:43:14.320 --> 0:43:14.520 Oh. 0:43:14.880 --> 0:43:20.040 Anyway, Steve brings home an unconscious Peter, and then Annie 0:43:20.120 --> 0:43:22.520 runs up and is trying to explain how she thinks 0:43:22.560 --> 0:43:27.440 that burning Charlie's notebook will sever whatever sinister connection has 0:43:27.480 --> 0:43:32.000 been created. She begs Steve to burn the book, knowing 0:43:32.040 --> 0:43:35.560 that she will combust and burn because of this link. 0:43:36.320 --> 0:43:39.120 He won't do it. He wants to call the police. 0:43:39.239 --> 0:43:43.799 He thinks that Annie is having a mental break, so 0:43:43.840 --> 0:43:47.120 she throws the book in the fire again, thinking it's 0:43:47.160 --> 0:43:52.280 going to make her burst into flames. But surprise, it's Steve, 0:43:52.440 --> 0:43:56.480 her husband, who combusts and dies instead. 0:43:57.000 --> 0:44:00.759 I did not see this coming, Oh, and never see 0:44:00.760 --> 0:44:06.800 it coming, no matter how many times. And you're just like, yeah, Steve, Steve, 0:44:06.960 --> 0:44:10.600 you should have gone to Disneyland. Steve, you should have 0:44:10.680 --> 0:44:14.520 taken Alex Wolf to Disneyland, and then you know we 0:44:14.560 --> 0:44:17.800 would have been. 0:44:16.600 --> 0:44:21.120 But he loved her. You know, it's broke my heart. 0:44:21.880 --> 0:44:22.760 This is a love story. 0:44:22.800 --> 0:44:28.320 Actually, yeah, no, absolutely where it's it makes me sad. 0:44:28.400 --> 0:44:33.680 It makes me sad. Yeah, that like he was trying 0:44:33.719 --> 0:44:38.080 to do right by his family by Annie because also 0:44:38.120 --> 0:44:39.799 it seems like, I mean, just based on what we 0:44:39.880 --> 0:44:43.360 know about this family, that he has had to stand 0:44:43.440 --> 0:44:46.799 by her through. Really, I mean, we know that her 0:44:46.880 --> 0:44:51.439 kids had a weird to bad relationship with her due 0:44:51.440 --> 0:44:54.520 to the whole almost lighting them all on fire thing, 0:44:55.680 --> 0:44:59.040 And it seems like he has been put in the 0:44:59.080 --> 0:45:03.840 position repeatedly of having to be the like calm, most 0:45:03.920 --> 0:45:07.840 calming presence in the room. But it's like dipped so 0:45:08.000 --> 0:45:11.840 far that he is, you know, I don't think intentionally, 0:45:11.920 --> 0:45:15.840 but like his need to appease everybody and be present 0:45:15.880 --> 0:45:21.400 for everybody is ultimately like what brings his downfall and 0:45:22.160 --> 0:45:25.719 the downfall of like other people, because it's like he's 0:45:25.760 --> 0:45:31.160 never quite decisive. He almost emails a therapist saying she's 0:45:31.200 --> 0:45:33.600 a girl. He almost does a lot of things, but 0:45:33.840 --> 0:45:37.400 because of his love for his wife and his fear 0:45:37.560 --> 0:45:41.560 of hurting her, like, he never quite takes the step 0:45:41.640 --> 0:45:44.600 he needs to protect his kids. I don't know, it's 0:45:44.680 --> 0:45:47.120 so fucked. I don't know what I would do if 0:45:47.160 --> 0:45:49.120 I if I'm Steve, I'll be honest. 0:45:49.600 --> 0:45:50.680 I am. 0:45:52.400 --> 0:45:55.600 Hard to say when your family is being possessed by 0:45:55.680 --> 0:45:58.520 one of the eight Kings of Hell. You just don't 0:45:58.520 --> 0:46:01.239 know how to handle such a Wait, you won't know 0:46:01.320 --> 0:46:03.320 until you're there, right. 0:46:03.160 --> 0:46:06.160 Yeah, yeah, And and this will happen to all three 0:46:06.160 --> 0:46:08.440 of us at some point. This is a part of 0:46:08.440 --> 0:46:10.720 the human experience that goes without saying. 0:46:10.880 --> 0:46:13.520 I'm alone in my house and all the lights are off. 0:46:13.560 --> 0:46:18.239 I might actually stand up to go turn some lights. 0:46:15.800 --> 0:46:22.040 And I'm gonna go turn the hallway light on really fast. 0:46:22.560 --> 0:46:23.480 This is beautiful. 0:46:27.040 --> 0:46:27.600 I I'm back. 0:46:28.239 --> 0:46:32.840 Okay, lights are on. We feel safe. So we've just 0:46:32.920 --> 0:46:37.480 seen Steve burst into flames and burn to death. Annie 0:46:37.560 --> 0:46:39.799 is shocked by this for a brief moment, but then 0:46:39.880 --> 0:46:44.520 seems to kind of disassociate. Then we cut to Peter 0:46:44.640 --> 0:46:47.759 waking up in his bed. He goes downstairs and discovers 0:46:47.960 --> 0:46:53.520 his charred father. He sees a creepy naked man lurking 0:46:53.560 --> 0:46:56.799 in a doorway. This is where we see Tony Klet. 0:46:56.960 --> 0:46:57.120 You know. 0:46:57.160 --> 0:47:01.440 Annie perched up by the ceiling as if she flew 0:47:01.560 --> 0:47:04.840 or floated up there. Then she lunges at Peter and 0:47:04.960 --> 0:47:08.319 chases after him. He locks himself in the attic, but 0:47:08.360 --> 0:47:11.719 then Annie is in the attic with him, sawing her 0:47:11.840 --> 0:47:15.960 own head off with piano wire. So that's interesting. 0:47:16.200 --> 0:47:16.920 So sick. 0:47:18.600 --> 0:47:22.720 Peter jumps out the window, but then that light shimmer 0:47:22.840 --> 0:47:27.000 thing that we saw before seems to enter him and 0:47:27.200 --> 0:47:30.480 compels him to go up to the treehouse that I 0:47:30.520 --> 0:47:34.520 forgot to mention until now, But we have established this 0:47:34.640 --> 0:47:38.000 treehouse earlier. We got a Chekhof's treehouse, and now it's 0:47:38.000 --> 0:47:41.200 paying off because he goes up there and what's in 0:47:41.239 --> 0:47:45.360 the treehouse, Well, it's a bunch of stuff. It's members 0:47:45.640 --> 0:47:51.000 of a cult that worship King Payman. It's Charlie's head 0:47:51.200 --> 0:47:56.600 on a statue of King Payman. It's the decapitated bodies 0:47:56.680 --> 0:48:05.359 of Peter's mom and Grandma Joe is there and she's saying, hey, Charlie, 0:48:04.960 --> 0:48:09.840 we've I'm quoting the dialogue here, we've corrected your first 0:48:10.000 --> 0:48:15.520 female body and we gave you this healthy male host. 0:48:16.200 --> 0:48:18.400 And then she goes on to say, you are payment. 0:48:18.719 --> 0:48:22.000 We bind ourselves to you. Give us your knowledge and 0:48:22.080 --> 0:48:27.399 your wisdom and your riches. Hail payment the end. 0:48:27.600 --> 0:48:30.359 So yeah, cute Joni Mitchell's song, and. 0:48:30.280 --> 0:48:34.080 We're like, oh, wild song to end on the part 0:48:34.120 --> 0:48:38.680 that I didn't fully get was that that Charlie was 0:48:38.880 --> 0:48:43.920 Payman the whole time, and that her decapitation was this 0:48:44.040 --> 0:48:47.960 kind of planned out thing from the cult, Like the 0:48:48.040 --> 0:48:51.880 accident wasn't actually an accident. They the cult like made 0:48:51.880 --> 0:48:57.360 this happen so that Payman could be transferred from Charlie's 0:48:57.360 --> 0:49:02.239 body into Peter's body. And so that's the part that 0:49:02.280 --> 0:49:05.520 I didn't quite get that, like the accident was not 0:49:05.680 --> 0:49:08.399 actually an accident. I don't know if that was more 0:49:08.440 --> 0:49:09.520 clear to other people. 0:49:09.719 --> 0:49:13.280 But now, if you, I mean later on subsequent watches, 0:49:13.320 --> 0:49:17.080 you notice the symbol of the cult is on, Like 0:49:17.400 --> 0:49:20.800 on the way to the party, they pass a telephone 0:49:20.840 --> 0:49:23.200 pole and the symbol from the cult is on, like 0:49:23.600 --> 0:49:27.240 embossed in the telephone pole. Yeah, but on my first 0:49:27.280 --> 0:49:31.040 watch or even second, I didn't notice that necessarily. So 0:49:31.080 --> 0:49:34.120 it's pretty like I feel like the world building elements 0:49:34.239 --> 0:49:39.840 are given really minimally, and all of the stuff with 0:49:39.920 --> 0:49:43.719 the cult is happening really backgrounded, and the focus is 0:49:43.760 --> 0:49:46.080 really on the family. And maybe this is why you 0:49:46.160 --> 0:49:49.680 felt that the the cult stuff was maybe or like 0:49:49.719 --> 0:49:52.480 the witchy stuff was maybe less developed, because it seems 0:49:52.520 --> 0:49:55.080 to be kind of besides the point and really being 0:49:55.160 --> 0:49:59.960 used as an as an engine to heighten this family struggle. 0:50:00.760 --> 0:50:03.279 Yeah, I think that's a pretty fair assessment. 0:50:03.880 --> 0:50:07.440 Yeah, I mean, well, now that we'll let's take a book, Brazer, 0:50:07.600 --> 0:50:10.280 let's take a break and come back and get into. 0:50:10.000 --> 0:50:21.280 It, and we're back. Where to begin. 0:50:21.800 --> 0:50:26.000 I kind of want to start with the witchier stuff 0:50:26.040 --> 0:50:28.719 in here, because yeah, I agree plumbit that it's like, 0:50:29.000 --> 0:50:33.759 it feels like the supernatural elements of this are secondary 0:50:34.239 --> 0:50:37.920 and almost like used to amplify the family dynamics that 0:50:38.000 --> 0:50:42.359 are at the core of this. It's weird that this 0:50:42.440 --> 0:50:46.880 movie came out in twenty eighteen and because of like 0:50:47.040 --> 0:50:51.080 the cultural moment of early twenty eighteen. This is right 0:50:51.120 --> 0:50:54.759 after the Me Too movement begins, and so there's a 0:50:54.760 --> 0:50:56.799 lot of takes on this movie that feel a little 0:50:56.960 --> 0:50:59.640 dated in that sense, not to say that it is 0:50:59.680 --> 0:51:03.279 like inaccurate, but that I don't know, like, it was 0:51:03.360 --> 0:51:06.960 interesting going through the initial wave of reception, some of 0:51:07.000 --> 0:51:08.799 which I think was really insightful and some of which 0:51:08.800 --> 0:51:11.160 I feel like was like a little bad faith in 0:51:11.400 --> 0:51:15.200 how the material was received, because I think at that 0:51:15.239 --> 0:51:18.560 point it's like, oh, so we're saying all women are witches, 0:51:18.640 --> 0:51:21.839 and you're like, well, why is that a bad thing. Yeah, 0:51:21.880 --> 0:51:24.759 I guess on my end, like just based vaguely on 0:51:24.840 --> 0:51:30.759 what I know about spiritualism. What I thought was interesting 0:51:30.960 --> 0:51:34.799 is whatever. Spiritualism is a late nineteenth century movement that 0:51:34.840 --> 0:51:38.160 went well into the twentieth century. It was a religious 0:51:38.200 --> 0:51:43.080 movement that women were at the center of. And there 0:51:43.160 --> 0:51:47.759 are so many flaws that came with this religion. That 0:51:47.880 --> 0:51:49.799 are the flaws like at the center of a lot 0:51:49.880 --> 0:51:53.480 of religions where it was you know, taking and sort 0:51:53.520 --> 0:51:57.400 of mutating indigenous beliefs and reclaiming it as if they 0:51:57.520 --> 0:51:59.920 understood it, which was not true. You know, this is 0:52:00.200 --> 0:52:04.160 very much like a religion that was shaped and put 0:52:04.200 --> 0:52:07.720 on display by white women in the late nineteenth century 0:52:07.760 --> 0:52:11.880 into the twentieth century. But it is a rare religious 0:52:11.880 --> 0:52:15.160 movement that was driven by women, and that was very 0:52:15.239 --> 0:52:20.640 threatening to the religious institutions at the time because spiritualism 0:52:21.000 --> 0:52:26.800 intersected with all of these progressive movements. It intersected with abolitionism, 0:52:26.840 --> 0:52:31.160 like Frederick Douglass like fucked around with spiritualism. Like there's 0:52:31.239 --> 0:52:34.239 a lot of history that is like it was at 0:52:34.280 --> 0:52:40.000 its core a flawed but essentially progressive religion that women 0:52:40.080 --> 0:52:42.960 were at the center of and so there was a 0:52:43.120 --> 0:52:47.480 vested interest as this religion sort of continued to develop 0:52:47.960 --> 0:52:52.960 to prove that it was made up, which like depending 0:52:53.000 --> 0:52:56.680 on how whatever this is like in a very casually 0:52:56.840 --> 0:53:00.520 mean way to view religion, it's all made up. But 0:53:00.680 --> 0:53:03.320 there was a vested interest in like, no, this religion 0:53:03.760 --> 0:53:07.560 is extra made up because women are at the center 0:53:07.640 --> 0:53:10.920 of it, and so the heads of and and a 0:53:10.960 --> 0:53:14.760 lot of it was made of and I also still 0:53:14.920 --> 0:53:17.759 kind of believe in it anyways. But you know, there 0:53:17.920 --> 0:53:21.799 were the seance rituals that we sort of see in this, 0:53:22.120 --> 0:53:27.080 the idea of like table ceremonies, versions of the what 0:53:27.080 --> 0:53:31.600 would eventually become the Ouiji board, but you know, table movements, 0:53:32.400 --> 0:53:35.440 glass movements. All of this stuff was very inherent to 0:53:36.040 --> 0:53:39.719 what this was in the nineteenth century and a very 0:53:40.440 --> 0:53:43.960 mainstream way at one point, like Mary Todd Lincoln like 0:53:44.160 --> 0:53:46.920 brought in the creators of spiritualism to try to bring 0:53:47.040 --> 0:53:50.239 Abe back, like it was a mainstream movement for a 0:53:50.320 --> 0:53:53.799 while that was shut down when it was you know 0:53:53.920 --> 0:53:57.799 like oh well this isn't quite you know, actually the 0:53:57.880 --> 0:54:02.440 supernatural accessing it as if any religion in the world 0:54:02.480 --> 0:54:05.839 has been like, actually we have the ghosts like, no 0:54:05.880 --> 0:54:08.560 one has the ghosts, but we all have the ghosts. 0:54:08.960 --> 0:54:10.920 That's why we all have the ghost But I just 0:54:11.719 --> 0:54:14.000 I thought it was interesting that they went in on 0:54:14.160 --> 0:54:20.120 this religion that was driven by white American women, specifically 0:54:20.840 --> 0:54:25.760 for this generational trauma story. It like, I think it works. 0:54:25.880 --> 0:54:29.120 I just I don't know the way it's executed with 0:54:29.880 --> 0:54:33.319 the whole payment thing, I don't know. It felt a 0:54:33.360 --> 0:54:36.239 little like YadA YadA YadA to me. But also I 0:54:36.320 --> 0:54:39.120 know that there are six hour analyzes and a lot 0:54:39.160 --> 0:54:42.000 that I missed. I just thought spiritualism was like a 0:54:42.080 --> 0:54:46.399 cool entry point, and I didn't super love where he 0:54:46.480 --> 0:54:48.600 went with it. I guess I don't know what does 0:54:48.600 --> 0:54:49.239 everyone think. 0:54:50.560 --> 0:54:54.960 I mean, my one of my biggest issues with the movie, 0:54:55.000 --> 0:54:58.120 and I remember thinking this after I left the theater 0:54:58.239 --> 0:55:01.919 in twenty eighteen when I saw it then, was the 0:55:02.560 --> 0:55:07.880 what felt to me like a conflation of mental illness 0:55:08.440 --> 0:55:12.600 and evil demons and kings of hell and that kind 0:55:12.640 --> 0:55:18.959 of stuff where I think the movie is suggesting. And 0:55:19.200 --> 0:55:21.680 I will just put a disclaimer here to say that 0:55:22.040 --> 0:55:25.400 when a movie scares me so badly like this, I 0:55:25.600 --> 0:55:31.239 have a hard time thinking about it intellectually and critically. 0:55:31.320 --> 0:55:33.719 Just because my brain gets so scared. I feel like 0:55:33.760 --> 0:55:36.319 I had a similar problem on the episode we did 0:55:36.600 --> 0:55:39.400 on The Ring, where I'm like, well, I don't know 0:55:39.440 --> 0:55:44.640 how I feel about this movie from an intersectional feminist lens, 0:55:44.760 --> 0:55:48.319 because I'm too scared and my brain doesn't work right now. 0:55:48.400 --> 0:55:53.440 But the kind of general thing I feel is that again, 0:55:53.520 --> 0:55:56.840 the movie does a very harmful thing of conflating mental 0:55:56.840 --> 0:56:01.840 illness with evil and demon And you know, there's this 0:56:02.080 --> 0:56:06.520 idea throughout the movie of something being hereditary and being 0:56:06.640 --> 0:56:10.160 inherited from your family, and it kind of feels like 0:56:10.200 --> 0:56:14.239 the movie posits the question, is it mental illness that's 0:56:14.280 --> 0:56:18.160 being passed down through the generations or is it Payman 0:56:18.719 --> 0:56:22.640 that's being passed down like you inherit the demon king 0:56:22.719 --> 0:56:25.160 that your mother dedicated her life to, whether you like 0:56:25.239 --> 0:56:28.239 it or not. And I mean, I think you could 0:56:28.280 --> 0:56:33.480 also make the argument that it's not conflation, it's allegory, 0:56:33.760 --> 0:56:37.799 like Payman is a metaphor for mental illness the way 0:56:37.800 --> 0:56:40.840 that you can read like the Babaduk is a metaphor 0:56:41.000 --> 0:56:46.200 for postpartum depression. And I also see a reading of 0:56:46.239 --> 0:56:50.000 the specific mental illnesses that Annie describes her family members 0:56:50.040 --> 0:56:53.560 as having when she says, like, my father had this 0:56:53.800 --> 0:56:57.759 and died as a result, my brother had this and 0:56:58.080 --> 0:57:02.680 died by suicide. But what was being perceived and diagnosed 0:57:02.800 --> 0:57:06.759 as mental illness in Annie's father and brother was actually, 0:57:07.120 --> 0:57:10.640 I lean, trying to put paymen inside them. It was 0:57:10.760 --> 0:57:13.960 never a mental illness. It was the demon all along. 0:57:14.640 --> 0:57:17.800 And I see those interpretations, but I still can't help 0:57:17.880 --> 0:57:20.800 but feel that what the movie is doing here is 0:57:20.920 --> 0:57:25.840 very malicious, especially because the specific mental illnesses that are 0:57:25.840 --> 0:57:30.200 mentioned are ones that are very often demonized by media 0:57:30.400 --> 0:57:34.760 and horror movies, ones that have huge stigmas attached to them. 0:57:34.920 --> 0:57:39.000 So I think the movie is conflating mental illness and 0:57:39.120 --> 0:57:44.360 evil in a very harmful and stigmatizing way. 0:57:45.200 --> 0:57:48.320 I know what you mean, but I almost feel like, So, 0:57:48.600 --> 0:57:53.160 there's there's two places where I feel this, and I 0:57:53.280 --> 0:57:55.200 absolutely see what you're talking about. 0:57:55.200 --> 0:57:55.400 Here. 0:57:56.040 --> 0:57:58.920 Is one in like the family History of mental Illness, 0:57:59.480 --> 0:58:02.320 and they really get very specific with the types of 0:58:02.320 --> 0:58:05.439 mental illness, but then don't really go into too much 0:58:05.480 --> 0:58:09.240 detail aside from like the few tidbits that like Tony 0:58:09.280 --> 0:58:14.480 spits out in like a ramble of hers and it's 0:58:14.520 --> 0:58:18.840 like a very classic horror trope. Slash like thing that 0:58:18.920 --> 0:58:22.640 happened in real life, that when people are mentally ill 0:58:23.480 --> 0:58:26.600 or struggling with mental illness that is like affecting the 0:58:26.600 --> 0:58:29.040 way they interact with other people. That like, historically people 0:58:29.080 --> 0:58:33.400 have been like it's satan or like it's the devil. 0:58:33.760 --> 0:58:36.480 And also this comes up over and over again in 0:58:36.520 --> 0:58:40.440 horror movies about possession, where they initially think it is 0:58:40.760 --> 0:58:44.240 a mental or physical like illment, but it's satan that's 0:58:44.280 --> 0:58:47.400 like hysterical or like exactly exactly. 0:58:47.480 --> 0:58:50.320 That's a lot of like I felt like the most 0:58:50.360 --> 0:58:54.040 effective moment for me every time, even when you know, 0:58:54.320 --> 0:58:56.320 like it's hard for your heart to not be with 0:58:56.360 --> 0:59:00.880 Steve where he's like what like, but because he is 0:59:00.960 --> 0:59:04.960 so thoroughly convinced of what is going on, he is 0:59:05.000 --> 0:59:08.640 not able to believe his wife about what is going on. 0:59:09.040 --> 0:59:12.520 And she is right, like right, you can argue with 0:59:13.000 --> 0:59:17.160 her methods all day long, you know, but she's right. 0:59:17.280 --> 0:59:21.720 She is telling him what is happening, and he doesn't 0:59:21.880 --> 0:59:23.960 believe her. And I think that that is like a 0:59:24.040 --> 0:59:27.080 running theme throughout this movie of I mean, that is 0:59:27.320 --> 0:59:30.480 part of why Charlie is gone. She is trying to 0:59:30.520 --> 0:59:33.160 advocate for herself she's trying to say, like I don't 0:59:33.200 --> 0:59:35.720 want to go to this party. I don't want to 0:59:35.720 --> 0:59:39.920 be here. I'm sick, and like by the time someone 0:59:39.960 --> 0:59:44.040 takes it seriously, it's already too late. And like, I 0:59:44.080 --> 0:59:45.880 think the same thing. You kind of see the same 0:59:45.920 --> 0:59:50.960 thing happen to her mother where they are both suffering. 0:59:51.800 --> 0:59:55.800 And I agree that like the way that already asked her, 0:59:56.040 --> 0:59:59.760 you know, deals with explicit mental illness in general, I 0:59:59.800 --> 1:00:03.240 think is just like really messy and I just personally 1:00:03.240 --> 1:00:06.880 don't like it. But what I thought, I don't know, plumber, 1:00:06.960 --> 1:00:08.640 let me know you. I think that like what he 1:00:08.800 --> 1:00:12.080 was trying to do, and I am kind of on 1:00:12.240 --> 1:00:15.600 like how effective it is, but like what he's trying 1:00:15.640 --> 1:00:19.720 to do is almost like a comment on like hysteria 1:00:20.080 --> 1:00:25.240 and how women are so often told like no, you're 1:00:25.320 --> 1:00:28.600 not telling the truth. Something bad isn't happening, something is 1:00:28.640 --> 1:00:32.200 wrong with you, and there is a name for it. 1:00:32.520 --> 1:00:35.480 And the problem with that is like that does invalidate 1:00:35.880 --> 1:00:39.040 a lot of mental illness and talk around mental illness. 1:00:39.480 --> 1:00:42.840 But the core of what he's saying I don't disagree with, 1:00:43.000 --> 1:00:46.960 and there is especially because he's talking about spiritualism, it 1:00:47.040 --> 1:00:51.800 feels like grounded in some historical precedent too, of just 1:00:51.840 --> 1:00:54.960 like I just don't like what you're saying, and so 1:00:55.280 --> 1:00:58.720 I need it to go away, and I need it 1:00:58.760 --> 1:01:01.240 to go away by any means necessary. I don't know, 1:01:01.840 --> 1:01:02.439 I don't know. 1:01:02.840 --> 1:01:06.120 Yeah, what I was thinking about with that is that 1:01:06.520 --> 1:01:11.160 I wonder if the movie is trying to be like 1:01:11.800 --> 1:01:14.000 what if it was the thing that you were afraid 1:01:14.040 --> 1:01:16.320 it was, or what if the uncanny thing? What if 1:01:16.360 --> 1:01:19.280 it was real and it was not explained by the 1:01:19.320 --> 1:01:24.520 mental illness, And it's kind of like interacting with the 1:01:25.000 --> 1:01:28.320 history and the tropes in that way. But I agree, 1:01:28.360 --> 1:01:31.400 it's kind of like it's a little half baked. But 1:01:31.600 --> 1:01:34.320 I think the aspect that kind of graded on me 1:01:35.600 --> 1:01:42.280 was Charlie specifically, who exhibits like maybe having some issues 1:01:42.320 --> 1:01:48.160 like socially that might like need some like therapeutic intervention potentially, 1:01:48.880 --> 1:01:54.680 but it's because she's a demon. That's like where I 1:01:54.800 --> 1:01:58.880 was like, Okay, well, you know, just because someone has 1:01:59.000 --> 1:02:02.560 trouble making friends with kids their age and like she 1:02:02.640 --> 1:02:05.840 has like a very stilted way of talking, doesn't mean 1:02:06.320 --> 1:02:09.760 that they are an incarnation of like the ninth demon 1:02:09.800 --> 1:02:12.000 of Hell or whatever. 1:02:12.680 --> 1:02:16.560 Socially awkward thirteen year old girl. If all of them 1:02:16.720 --> 1:02:19.400 are pam On, we're fucked. 1:02:20.960 --> 1:02:21.160 Right. 1:02:21.440 --> 1:02:25.840 I was reading different people's writing about this movie through 1:02:25.880 --> 1:02:29.919 the lens of disability and ableism. The movie doesn't say 1:02:29.960 --> 1:02:34.800 anything specific about Charlie, but some people were reading Charlie 1:02:34.840 --> 1:02:39.880 as being autistic based on various traits and behaviors she displays. 1:02:40.800 --> 1:02:43.720 And then separate from that, the actor who plays Charlie, 1:02:43.880 --> 1:02:49.000 Millie Shapiro, was born with clydal cranial dysplasia, which affects 1:02:49.040 --> 1:02:52.800 a person's bones and teeth often affects their height and 1:02:52.880 --> 1:02:58.400 facial structure. So to characterize Charlie in this way, that 1:02:58.640 --> 1:03:02.920 can be read as being neurodivergent. And this character is 1:03:02.960 --> 1:03:06.440 played by an actor who has a facial difference, and 1:03:06.640 --> 1:03:09.760 that's the character who has a demon living inside them 1:03:10.040 --> 1:03:12.720 and has had this demon in them since, like right 1:03:12.800 --> 1:03:18.160 after they were born. Has very ablest implications. But I 1:03:18.200 --> 1:03:21.600 also saw examples of people with autism saying they felt 1:03:21.800 --> 1:03:27.360 represented by Charlie, regardless of the implication that her atypical 1:03:27.400 --> 1:03:34.480 behavior and vocal stemming, for example, are actually a demon 1:03:34.680 --> 1:03:40.840 displaying these behaviors. So again open to many reads and interpretations. 1:03:41.280 --> 1:03:44.880 I also wanted to point out that there is ablest 1:03:44.960 --> 1:03:51.360 language surrounding Charlie, not directed at her exactly, but that 1:03:51.520 --> 1:03:55.760 scene where Peter's crush says Charlie drew a picture of her, 1:03:56.360 --> 1:03:59.920 and then this girl uses an ablest slur to describe 1:04:00.200 --> 1:04:04.000 how Charlie depicted her in the drawing, which I feel 1:04:04.040 --> 1:04:08.760 is still a veiled ablest insult toward Charlie. All this 1:04:08.880 --> 1:04:11.720 to say, there's a lot happening in this movie regarding 1:04:12.400 --> 1:04:18.520 implications surrounding mental illness and disability and neurodivergence and whether 1:04:18.600 --> 1:04:23.440 or not those things are actually a demon inhabiting someone's body, 1:04:24.240 --> 1:04:26.040 and none of it sits well with. 1:04:26.000 --> 1:04:29.080 Me, right, Yeah, Like that's I feel like where the 1:04:30.040 --> 1:04:33.480 issue is. It just kind of like interrupts I don't know, 1:04:33.760 --> 1:04:37.840 it interrupts part of what I like about this movie, 1:04:38.040 --> 1:04:40.920 which is, you know, it's a little absurd and like 1:04:41.000 --> 1:04:45.000 way over the top because it's fucking hereditary. But the 1:04:45.080 --> 1:04:50.640 idea that like this line of women have been far 1:04:50.760 --> 1:04:54.800 more powerful than anyone ever gave them credit for because 1:04:55.000 --> 1:04:59.680 of the way that people kind of systemically dismiss women's 1:04:59.680 --> 1:05:04.400 con concerns, women's ideas and I also feel like it 1:05:04.440 --> 1:05:07.600 kind of ties into you know, like the fact that 1:05:08.240 --> 1:05:12.080 Annie is an artist, and that is like doesn't seem 1:05:12.080 --> 1:05:15.080 like it's taken super seriously by anyone in her family 1:05:15.160 --> 1:05:19.920 or anyone around her. And I don't know. I like, 1:05:20.200 --> 1:05:23.520 on its face the fact that like, you know, these whatever, 1:05:23.760 --> 1:05:27.840 three four generations of women have been you know, dismissed 1:05:28.000 --> 1:05:33.760 as very sick, when in fact they were extremely powerful 1:05:33.880 --> 1:05:37.360 and misunderstood. I like that theme. I think it gets 1:05:37.600 --> 1:05:41.600 very messy. I don't think ari Astor, a first time 1:05:42.040 --> 1:05:46.720 male director, is the one to be able to present 1:05:46.880 --> 1:05:49.800 this in a nuanced and thoughtful way. But I like 1:05:49.840 --> 1:05:52.680 the core idea of it. But that's all a little 1:05:52.760 --> 1:05:59.080 like interrupted by having Charlie be the demon, like why why? Yeah. 1:05:59.120 --> 1:06:01.080 But at the same time, I keep thinking about what 1:06:01.160 --> 1:06:04.640 you had said earlier, that like what if your worst 1:06:04.680 --> 1:06:08.280 fear and like the worst thing you're thinking is actually true. 1:06:08.880 --> 1:06:11.600 This is like what if that child who's behaving oddly, 1:06:12.160 --> 1:06:16.200 it's actually because they're that like worst fear, like they're evil. 1:06:16.640 --> 1:06:18.920 So it's like that over and over again with all 1:06:18.960 --> 1:06:20.160 of these different things. 1:06:20.480 --> 1:06:24.880 I also don't think that Annie, like I, you know, whatever, narratively, 1:06:25.520 --> 1:06:29.200 Annie is not a great parent, Like she's not, and 1:06:29.240 --> 1:06:32.800 it seems like, you know, her mom was also a 1:06:32.840 --> 1:06:37.160 pretty like horrifically bad parent, and there is like I 1:06:37.200 --> 1:06:41.240 mean hereditary hat like has to do with this paymon shit, 1:06:41.560 --> 1:06:45.560 but it also has to do with behavioral patterns like 1:06:45.680 --> 1:06:49.000 Annie was. It seemed like went through I mean, we 1:06:49.080 --> 1:06:51.880 know went through a lot of really traumatic stuff when 1:06:51.920 --> 1:06:55.160 she was a kid, and the attitude in the house 1:06:55.240 --> 1:06:57.160 is we don't talk about it. And we see her 1:06:58.000 --> 1:07:02.120 repeat that pattern when she loses her mother and then 1:07:02.160 --> 1:07:07.200 she loses her daughter. She never talks to Peter, and 1:07:07.280 --> 1:07:09.960 I think, you know, like you can go any which way, 1:07:10.000 --> 1:07:14.000 but like in this family, Steve is the more emotionally 1:07:14.040 --> 1:07:18.360 intelligent parent and he's not great, but he's trying. And 1:07:18.760 --> 1:07:22.040 you just see Annie for all of these reasons that 1:07:22.120 --> 1:07:26.600 are understandable, but in terms of showing up for her kid, 1:07:27.280 --> 1:07:32.240 she doesn't. And like that scene between Peter and Annie 1:07:32.280 --> 1:07:34.760 at the dinner table is so gut wrenching because you 1:07:34.800 --> 1:07:39.440 can just feel ugh, like it like makes me feel 1:07:39.480 --> 1:07:41.640 sick when I watch it because you can just see 1:07:41.680 --> 1:07:45.960 like both of these characters want it to be someone's fault. 1:07:46.160 --> 1:07:50.240 And the truth is somewhere in the middle, which is 1:07:50.320 --> 1:07:54.080 why it kind of bugs me. Bugged me, and I 1:07:54.120 --> 1:07:56.800 think still bugs me that at the end we're kind 1:07:56.800 --> 1:08:01.880 of given a prescriptive answer as to why what happened happened. 1:08:02.800 --> 1:08:05.120 It did surprise me that we were given such a 1:08:05.120 --> 1:08:07.680 clear cut answer, but I sort of I guess, just 1:08:07.720 --> 1:08:14.160 like personally, I kind of preferred the stomach churning uncertainty 1:08:14.440 --> 1:08:18.120 of like why did this happen? Sure Annie's choice is 1:08:18.200 --> 1:08:21.479 contributed to it, and Peter's choice is contributed to it, 1:08:22.360 --> 1:08:25.519 but there's no clear answer, there's no clear fault. But 1:08:26.000 --> 1:08:26.599 the end of the. 1:08:26.600 --> 1:08:28.400 Movie, ultimately it was the cult. 1:08:28.800 --> 1:08:31.200 Well that's why. That's sort of why I don't like 1:08:31.240 --> 1:08:34.160 the witchy stuff towards the end, because it like it 1:08:34.240 --> 1:08:36.600 gives you. I thought it just kind of gave me 1:08:36.760 --> 1:08:40.479 more answers than I wanted in a way that felt 1:08:40.479 --> 1:08:43.479 almost like a little bit less haunting at the end 1:08:43.479 --> 1:08:45.640 to be like, oh, it was actually, you know, like 1:08:46.360 --> 1:08:52.280 the scary Treehouse cult that this was predetermined many moons ago, 1:08:52.600 --> 1:08:56.679 and like so now, I mean, not that it ends 1:08:56.720 --> 1:08:59.960 great for Peter, but you know, he can whatever rest 1:09:00.040 --> 1:09:02.880 assured that it wasn't his fault, which I feel like 1:09:02.960 --> 1:09:06.160 is almost a worse punishment than becoming the devil himself. 1:09:06.240 --> 1:09:11.240 Is always wondering like was this my fault? Like that's 1:09:11.280 --> 1:09:14.559 one of the most I think like horrible actual things 1:09:14.560 --> 1:09:17.240 that can happen to a person is having to wonder that. 1:09:17.600 --> 1:09:20.800 Right, Yeah, there's so much about blame in this movie, 1:09:21.760 --> 1:09:24.040 and I have in my notes. I have the word 1:09:24.160 --> 1:09:27.559 blame in big letters with a square around it because 1:09:27.560 --> 1:09:30.519 it comes up over and over again and how like 1:09:31.280 --> 1:09:36.599 blame can like distort relationships. But sure, I kind of 1:09:36.640 --> 1:09:42.080 feel the opposite of you on the committing to an answer, 1:09:42.360 --> 1:09:44.479 like a clear cut answer that there was a cult 1:09:44.560 --> 1:09:46.360 and there was a demon and all of this was 1:09:46.920 --> 1:09:52.520 I feel like so much horror that like is allegorical 1:09:52.880 --> 1:09:55.800 or like trying to represent or talk about things like 1:09:56.080 --> 1:10:00.519 commits too hard and the metaphor is like too neat clean, 1:10:01.320 --> 1:10:05.200 and this one is like messy a little bit, and 1:10:05.240 --> 1:10:09.360 like none of the none of the representations, like feel 1:10:09.640 --> 1:10:13.680 are like one hundred percent. We can't definitively be like 1:10:13.800 --> 1:10:18.719 this is about grief, or like this is about inherited trauma, 1:10:18.920 --> 1:10:21.599 or this is about mental illness or anything like that 1:10:21.680 --> 1:10:23.639 like all of that stuff is like in the soup, 1:10:24.640 --> 1:10:28.759 and what makes it cohesive is that there is actually 1:10:28.800 --> 1:10:33.080 a plot and a reason rooted in like the reality 1:10:33.160 --> 1:10:36.599 of the movie for all of these things to be happening, 1:10:37.320 --> 1:10:42.960 and ultimately, like all of the characters are kind of 1:10:43.000 --> 1:10:46.080 helpless in the face of the larger powers. And I 1:10:46.080 --> 1:10:50.519 think that's where I enjoy horror is just like when 1:10:50.800 --> 1:10:54.760 it lets go of the notion that we as like 1:10:54.840 --> 1:10:59.479 little people with our little dramas, have any sway on 1:10:59.720 --> 1:11:04.120 these like huge, old, supernatural things that are happening around us. 1:11:05.439 --> 1:11:10.000 Yeah, sometimes I wish I could be like, yeah, the depression, 1:11:10.000 --> 1:11:14.880 I'm constantly feeling that's just the seventh King of Hell 1:11:15.640 --> 1:11:17.519 weaseling his way into my brain. 1:11:18.160 --> 1:11:21.120 Maybe that's a personal thing because I would rather blame 1:11:21.880 --> 1:11:25.480 myself and my mom for those things. 1:11:26.680 --> 1:11:29.679 But that's like in a family drama, it's like it's 1:11:29.920 --> 1:11:33.280 yourself and the mom is the problem. And then that's 1:11:33.360 --> 1:11:36.519 like the lovely thing about horror, just like genre in general, 1:11:36.520 --> 1:11:39.679 it's like, but actually, there's like this third, sinister, magical 1:11:39.680 --> 1:11:41.240 thing that has nothing to do with you guys. 1:11:41.600 --> 1:11:43.680 Yeah, I guess that's personal. I just wish that there 1:11:43.720 --> 1:11:45.960 was maybe. I mean, I don't even object to like 1:11:46.520 --> 1:11:49.320 the inclusion of the cult. It's like you almost kind 1:11:49.360 --> 1:11:52.600 of get a second movie out of it. But I 1:11:52.680 --> 1:11:55.120 just wish maybe there was I don't know, Yeah, this 1:11:55.280 --> 1:11:57.840 is strictly a personal thing, but I wish there was 1:11:57.880 --> 1:12:02.200 a little more like leeway left for You're not totally sure, 1:12:02.880 --> 1:12:05.760 because cults are created by people, but this movie would 1:12:05.760 --> 1:12:09.840 have you believed because you see, like whatever spiritualism had 1:12:09.920 --> 1:12:13.120 sound off. You see that Tony Collette checks all of 1:12:13.160 --> 1:12:16.400 the classic spiritualist tricks. She looks under the table, she 1:12:16.479 --> 1:12:19.519 looks for this, she looks for that, and so if 1:12:19.560 --> 1:12:23.559 you've seen any seance rig, you know it's clear that 1:12:23.680 --> 1:12:26.439 like this is real, and that is like confirming the 1:12:26.479 --> 1:12:29.479 existence of this magic. I just I don't know, Yeah, 1:12:29.680 --> 1:12:32.960 I wish that that door was kind of left open 1:12:33.360 --> 1:12:36.680 a little bit. I've found myself like really drawn to 1:12:36.800 --> 1:12:39.760 like horror stories that let you have a little bit 1:12:39.840 --> 1:12:45.360 of both. I read a book recently, The September House 1:12:46.360 --> 1:12:50.559 by Carissa Orlando. It's a really good haunted house book 1:12:50.600 --> 1:12:52.960 that I feel like kind of like lets you have 1:12:53.040 --> 1:12:54.680 your cake and eat it too, where it is like 1:12:54.720 --> 1:12:58.639 a story that is grounded in a woman going through 1:12:58.640 --> 1:13:03.360 a mental health crisis and also ghosts surreal and like 1:13:03.600 --> 1:13:06.360 both of these things exist. I don't know, that's it 1:13:06.720 --> 1:13:11.640 was my ideal horror story where mental illness is a 1:13:11.720 --> 1:13:18.240 real and present force and also the supernatural is fucking 1:13:18.280 --> 1:13:20.639 with us at all times, and if you combine the two, 1:13:22.040 --> 1:13:23.920 you're fucked, which is maybe just like what I was 1:13:23.960 --> 1:13:27.800 looking for more from the conclusion of Hereditary then than 1:13:27.840 --> 1:13:29.960 there is. But yeah, again that's like a personal thing. 1:13:30.960 --> 1:13:31.120 Yeah. 1:13:31.160 --> 1:13:35.519 I mean, if the like cult and payment stuff and 1:13:35.680 --> 1:13:39.879 all the magic and mysticism is taken out of this movie, 1:13:39.960 --> 1:13:44.040 it would just be a really effective family drama about 1:13:44.280 --> 1:13:47.200 grief and generational trauma. 1:13:47.400 --> 1:13:48.919 You gotta have the goals. 1:13:49.800 --> 1:13:52.400 Yeah, But I do like that there is a lot 1:13:52.439 --> 1:13:58.160 of emphasis on blame and trust too, where like the 1:13:58.200 --> 1:14:03.400 families having troubled each other and where they can't trust 1:14:03.400 --> 1:14:05.960 each other, they are throwing blame around at each other. 1:14:06.080 --> 1:14:09.320 So and these are like things that are very familiar 1:14:09.320 --> 1:14:12.479 in a lot of family dynamics, So I think it's 1:14:12.520 --> 1:14:16.639 interesting that the movie explores those and I think that's 1:14:16.680 --> 1:14:21.439 why this movie has like a longer lasting legacy and 1:14:21.560 --> 1:14:25.840 is beloved by its fans more than a pretty like 1:14:25.920 --> 1:14:29.120 straightforward ghost story movie that fails to kind of dig 1:14:29.200 --> 1:14:34.640 deeper into you know, a character's internal struggle and you know, 1:14:34.760 --> 1:14:38.599 complicated family dynamics, which a lot of horror movies fail 1:14:38.680 --> 1:14:41.000 to do just because it's like it's a ghost story 1:14:41.080 --> 1:14:44.240 or it's a monster story and you know, not really 1:14:44.280 --> 1:14:48.120 digging deep into anything actually like interesting or thematic about 1:14:48.240 --> 1:14:52.320 the human experience or the human condition. I want to 1:14:52.360 --> 1:14:58.000 talk about payment and gender because. 1:14:58.320 --> 1:15:01.479 Yeah, okay, I guess there's something. 1:15:01.560 --> 1:15:05.920 There's something here in the text of the movie. So 1:15:05.960 --> 1:15:10.040 we learned we hear early on in a conversation between 1:15:10.479 --> 1:15:15.799 Charlie and her mom Annie. It's right after the grandmother's funeral, 1:15:15.960 --> 1:15:19.360 and Charlie says, Grandma wanted me to be a boy, 1:15:20.320 --> 1:15:23.560 and we don't really get any context for that or 1:15:23.600 --> 1:15:25.200 any other information aside. 1:15:25.360 --> 1:15:27.240 I feel like we're just like left to play on 1:15:27.960 --> 1:15:30.400 the classic successor thing. 1:15:30.560 --> 1:15:33.400 I don't know, Yeah, I feel like having grown up 1:15:33.439 --> 1:15:38.280 in a really patriarchal like family that my grandmother also 1:15:39.040 --> 1:15:41.040 was like I wish you were a boy when I 1:15:41.120 --> 1:15:44.960 was first born, So I like totally like breathed past that. 1:15:45.200 --> 1:15:49.120 I was like, oh, that's normal patriarchy stuff. 1:15:49.360 --> 1:15:52.760 Right, Yeah, it could definitely be chalked up to that. 1:15:53.080 --> 1:15:55.760 And then as the movie goes on, and especially by 1:15:55.760 --> 1:16:00.920 the end, you find out why the grandma won her 1:16:00.960 --> 1:16:04.479 to be a boy because of the whole payment thing. 1:16:05.280 --> 1:16:08.639 And when Annie is kind of rifling through the book 1:16:08.720 --> 1:16:12.800 about King Payman, there's this passage that I paused on 1:16:13.080 --> 1:16:15.320 and wrote down as much of it as I could, 1:16:16.160 --> 1:16:20.800 but it's basically explaining that there's some text because if 1:16:20.800 --> 1:16:24.960 you look up payment on you know, scholarly journal Wikipedia, 1:16:25.240 --> 1:16:27.880 this is a thing Like this isn't an invention for 1:16:27.960 --> 1:16:30.080 the movie Hereditary, there's lore. 1:16:30.240 --> 1:16:32.720 I think a lot of horror movies have like encountered 1:16:32.760 --> 1:16:35.479 different versions of these guys. 1:16:35.760 --> 1:16:41.559 Yeah, but there's apparently some text called the Goaisha or something, 1:16:41.960 --> 1:16:44.839 and the book that Annie reads from says the Goisha 1:16:44.880 --> 1:16:48.960 itself makes no mention of King Payman's face. Then there's 1:16:48.960 --> 1:16:52.200 like text that's cut off other documentation describes him as 1:16:52.240 --> 1:16:56.040 having a woman's face, while something something some other text 1:16:56.560 --> 1:17:00.840 refers to him using strictly masculine pronouns. As result, the 1:17:00.960 --> 1:17:04.800 sexes of the hosts have varied, but the most successful 1:17:04.840 --> 1:17:08.639 incarnations have been with men and it is documented that 1:17:08.760 --> 1:17:12.479 King Payment has become livid and vengeful when offered a 1:17:12.560 --> 1:17:16.160 female host. For these reasons, it is imperative to remember 1:17:16.400 --> 1:17:19.720 that King Payment is a male, thus covetous of a 1:17:19.800 --> 1:17:24.120 male human body. So we find out, okay, this Payment 1:17:24.240 --> 1:17:30.960 worshiping cult needs a male host to put Paymin into. 1:17:31.680 --> 1:17:36.960 And then again through some things that are implied throughout 1:17:37.000 --> 1:17:42.719 the movie, we realize that Payman has been inhabiting Charlie, 1:17:42.840 --> 1:17:47.000 or had been inhabiting Charlie, but King Payment wasn't happy 1:17:47.040 --> 1:17:53.160 about that. He wants a male host. So that's why 1:17:53.200 --> 1:17:59.000 they orchestrate this whole thing to put Paymin into Peter's body. 1:17:59.200 --> 1:18:02.160 I don't know why that didn't just happen originally. 1:18:02.840 --> 1:18:06.280 Oh, they they explained that there's a part where I 1:18:06.280 --> 1:18:09.679 think it's in the in the like grief group therapy 1:18:09.800 --> 1:18:14.519 thing where she talks about how she wanted to distance 1:18:14.560 --> 1:18:18.120 herself from her mother because of like their toxic relationship, 1:18:18.479 --> 1:18:23.519 and she didn't let her go near her son at all, right, 1:18:23.720 --> 1:18:26.120 but then she felt bad about it, so she quote 1:18:26.200 --> 1:18:27.599 unquote gave her Charlie. 1:18:28.040 --> 1:18:31.240 Okay, okay, okay, got it. So that's why they use 1:18:31.520 --> 1:18:37.280 Charlie's body for king Payment to inhabit, but it's not 1:18:37.400 --> 1:18:41.600 quite working out because Payment is a misogynist and he 1:18:41.680 --> 1:18:45.679 hates women or something. I don't know what to make 1:18:45.720 --> 1:18:46.680 of this exactly. 1:18:48.360 --> 1:18:51.960 Or he's just like very like secure in his gender. 1:18:51.840 --> 1:18:56.120 And wants present body being put into their wrong body. Yeah, 1:18:56.320 --> 1:19:00.920 it's like we gotta decapitate this body. I don't like. Yeah, 1:19:01.000 --> 1:19:03.600 I didn't know what to make of it either, but 1:19:03.800 --> 1:19:08.280 I yeah, when I was reading back on criticism of 1:19:08.360 --> 1:19:11.599 the time, I feel like I didn't quite agree with 1:19:11.720 --> 1:19:16.640 the genter, like there's like a clear desire for a 1:19:16.760 --> 1:19:19.640 male leader. I don't know. I don't know because I 1:19:19.640 --> 1:19:22.480 think I like, ultimately what I decided is I don't 1:19:22.520 --> 1:19:26.519 know or understand enough about the underlying like. 1:19:26.560 --> 1:19:31.840 Satanist demonology, demonology. Yeah, it's like spiritualism, I get. But 1:19:32.000 --> 1:19:37.000 towards the end this movie pretty severely takes a left 1:19:37.080 --> 1:19:39.719 from that and gets full on into demon shit. 1:19:40.120 --> 1:19:42.400 And so this movie I feel like, lures you in 1:19:42.479 --> 1:19:45.720 with kind of like more friendly like women are in 1:19:45.800 --> 1:19:49.040 charge spiritualism, and then it takes a turn to demonism 1:19:49.120 --> 1:19:51.519 at some point in a way that like I felt 1:19:51.520 --> 1:19:55.760 out of my depth and it feels like and this 1:19:55.920 --> 1:20:00.760 is just like strictly based on observation, it seems like 1:20:00.840 --> 1:20:06.120 the demon shit is a little more patriarchal. Yeah, I 1:20:06.160 --> 1:20:08.800 just felt like a departure from what we were seeing 1:20:08.800 --> 1:20:13.719 before because spiritualism is historically driven by women, and demon 1:20:13.760 --> 1:20:17.960 shit seems like it is not. So I didn't know 1:20:18.080 --> 1:20:19.080 what they were doing. 1:20:19.280 --> 1:20:25.679 Demon stuff is for boys, like church church adjacent, which 1:20:26.040 --> 1:20:27.320 traditionally I think. 1:20:27.200 --> 1:20:31.400 Right, it gets more patriarchal. Yeah, it was just confusing. 1:20:31.520 --> 1:20:34.920 I wonder how much like ari Astor knows about this 1:20:35.000 --> 1:20:37.200 shit and how much of it is just like this 1:20:37.280 --> 1:20:39.280 is what I need to happen. What do I need? 1:20:39.400 --> 1:20:41.960 Like what horror tools could I use to make it happen? 1:20:42.320 --> 1:20:45.000 But yeah, I guess not that we're talking about it. 1:20:45.000 --> 1:20:46.679 It feels like there is kind of like a fake 1:20:46.720 --> 1:20:52.000 out with like leading with like spiritual practice that is 1:20:52.800 --> 1:20:57.960 both troubled and women of historically been leaders, and then 1:20:58.040 --> 1:21:02.240 kind of pivoting at some point to like, actually it's 1:21:02.280 --> 1:21:06.040 a more patriarchal demon thing. I don't know. 1:21:06.160 --> 1:21:09.960 I feel like the spiritualism part was actually a trick 1:21:10.400 --> 1:21:15.439 that the cult was playing on Annie, being like you're 1:21:15.479 --> 1:21:19.559 a medium and we can contact your child, and this 1:21:19.760 --> 1:21:23.800 is like, this is a spiritualism thing, but really they 1:21:23.840 --> 1:21:27.600 were like read this incantation that summons the demon and 1:21:28.080 --> 1:21:30.200 summon's your child. And by your child, I do mean 1:21:30.200 --> 1:21:32.880 the demon that was inhabiting your child, right, and like 1:21:33.000 --> 1:21:38.759 using the grief, like grief drove a lot of spiritualism stuff, 1:21:38.920 --> 1:21:44.240 I think, which I learned from your podcast actually, and 1:21:45.120 --> 1:21:49.880 this is like capitalizing on that for like other nefarious 1:21:49.920 --> 1:21:54.559 demon cult needs and it's all Rosemary's Baby from there. 1:21:54.960 --> 1:21:57.799 It is truely. I mean, it's like and Doud's performance 1:21:57.880 --> 1:22:01.479 is so clearly pulled from Raspberry's and like I mean 1:22:01.520 --> 1:22:03.439 that as a compliment, but it's like you can see 1:22:03.479 --> 1:22:08.479 how like interacting those movies are. I yeah, I don't know. 1:22:08.640 --> 1:22:12.240 And and again it's like I guess it's everyone's my 1:22:12.320 --> 1:22:15.720 life is going to vary for like ari astor landing On, 1:22:15.960 --> 1:22:20.519 Like it's actually this scary patriarchal thing that ended up 1:22:20.600 --> 1:22:23.240 being kind of the internal truth of what's going on. 1:22:23.720 --> 1:22:29.920 It does explain how most women in this world seem 1:22:29.960 --> 1:22:34.160 to be absolutely fucked or beholden to this system. But 1:22:34.400 --> 1:22:37.040 I don't know. Yeah, the supernatural stuff in this movie, 1:22:37.280 --> 1:22:40.000 it's very possible that I just don't know enough, but 1:22:40.080 --> 1:22:45.559 it never quite connects for me. The family stuff really connects. Yeah, 1:22:45.640 --> 1:22:47.880 it just seems like a family of people who are 1:22:48.439 --> 1:22:52.360 all genuinely doing their best and are undercut by either 1:22:52.479 --> 1:22:57.160 mental illness or the work of the devil, and sometimes. 1:22:56.680 --> 1:23:02.160 Both, sometimes both. And I think ari astroposits one of 1:23:02.240 --> 1:23:05.360 those two things are the same thing, mental illness. 1:23:04.960 --> 1:23:05.599 And that devil. 1:23:06.640 --> 1:23:09.320 But maybe I'm just overthinking it. 1:23:09.680 --> 1:23:11.720 But uh, I don't want to. I don't know. I 1:23:11.760 --> 1:23:15.200 don't want to feel like that's the general way that 1:23:15.400 --> 1:23:17.960 or like the thesis of the movie. But I think 1:23:18.040 --> 1:23:20.280 it is like the what if of the movie, Like 1:23:20.360 --> 1:23:23.360 not that like mental illness and the devil are the same, 1:23:23.400 --> 1:23:26.000 but like what if they were? And that's like a 1:23:26.040 --> 1:23:28.200 weird place to land sometimes, right. 1:23:28.439 --> 1:23:31.320 I also think I'm influenced by something that we bring 1:23:31.400 --> 1:23:34.519 up on the podcast a lot, which is that early 1:23:34.560 --> 1:23:39.400 scene in Midsommar where there's a character who is explicitly 1:23:39.439 --> 1:23:43.040 stated to have bipolar and then she murders her whole 1:23:43.040 --> 1:23:47.799 family as if her bipolar drove her to murder. 1:23:48.240 --> 1:23:49.760 I was just I was just about to bring that 1:23:49.840 --> 1:23:53.160 up where that still is always gonna bother me more 1:23:53.280 --> 1:23:57.439 because Midsommar is not a supernatural movie. It's a cult movie. 1:23:57.720 --> 1:24:00.519 Like these are both cult movies, but Hereditary is also 1:24:00.560 --> 1:24:04.880 a supernatural movie. Midsummer is explicitly like in that world, 1:24:05.080 --> 1:24:07.920 we do not see magic shit happen. Any of the 1:24:08.040 --> 1:24:12.000 visions that happen in that movie are brought up by drugs. 1:24:12.439 --> 1:24:16.960 So like, I'll always be and I love Midsummar, but 1:24:17.120 --> 1:24:20.080 like I will always be bothered by him. That feels 1:24:20.080 --> 1:24:24.200 like the worst like explicit conflation of she is this 1:24:24.439 --> 1:24:28.760 and therefore this happened where at very least, and I 1:24:28.800 --> 1:24:31.800 still don't like how like it doesn't quite connect with 1:24:31.840 --> 1:24:35.679 me how the the two are connected. But at least 1:24:35.720 --> 1:24:38.240 it feels like there's the possibility of a what if. 1:24:38.520 --> 1:24:42.480 But in Midsummer there's it's just like text like bipolar 1:24:42.520 --> 1:24:44.440 people kill their families. 1:24:44.640 --> 1:24:48.480 You're just like in general, I like I like Hereditary 1:24:48.520 --> 1:24:52.480 better than mits Sommer because of I think the supernatural. 1:24:52.920 --> 1:24:55.439 Oh and I think it was just scarier period. 1:24:55.640 --> 1:24:59.200 It is scarier. But they both love rotting aheads and 1:24:59.280 --> 1:25:03.639 lighting people fire. He is like it's his strange addiction 1:25:05.080 --> 1:25:08.200 is doing that. But yeah, I don't know, I at 1:25:08.280 --> 1:25:11.840 least I don't know. While I find the supernatural stuff frustrating, 1:25:11.880 --> 1:25:17.520 sometimes it does temper some of the stuff that. Yeah, 1:25:17.640 --> 1:25:20.439 I don't think ari Astor like, I don't think enough 1:25:20.479 --> 1:25:21.880 bad things have happened to him. 1:25:23.720 --> 1:25:27.400 I mean, we don't have to talk about his short films. 1:25:28.040 --> 1:25:30.240 I couldn't. I haven't seen them. 1:25:30.520 --> 1:25:33.040 Yeah I've seen, I just know about them. I shan't 1:25:33.080 --> 1:25:33.840 be seeing. 1:25:34.520 --> 1:25:37.640 I saw, I saw the Big One, and yeah, No, 1:25:37.840 --> 1:25:40.760 I just think that ari Astor is like I should 1:25:40.960 --> 1:25:47.920 in general, keep specific mental illnesses out of his mouth 1:25:48.040 --> 1:25:52.160 and his writing until we understand why he's doing it, 1:25:52.200 --> 1:25:58.280 because sometimes there does feel like a shock jockey, you know, 1:25:58.320 --> 1:26:01.400 which feels weird to say of an like an indeed 1:26:01.920 --> 1:26:04.920 horror director. But it does sometimes feel like, what's the 1:26:04.920 --> 1:26:07.360 most fucked up thing I could present in a way 1:26:07.400 --> 1:26:11.479 that you could still present something really really really fucked 1:26:11.560 --> 1:26:14.280 up and not be like bipolar made her do it, 1:26:14.439 --> 1:26:18.759 you know, or I don't know. In Hereditary it feels 1:26:18.760 --> 1:26:22.320 like there's a little bit more purpose, or at least 1:26:22.320 --> 1:26:26.120 an argument for purpose behind it. But it's this first movie. 1:26:26.640 --> 1:26:28.920 There's stuff that doesn't quite work. 1:26:29.280 --> 1:26:34.000 No, I think it succeeds for me on like a 1:26:34.040 --> 1:26:38.679 horror level. The other stuff I think is good, better 1:26:38.760 --> 1:26:42.120 than a lot of horror movies and like more thoughtful 1:26:42.479 --> 1:26:44.600 and like the character the acting is really good. I 1:26:44.640 --> 1:26:47.880 think really helps in the character work is interesting. But 1:26:48.080 --> 1:26:51.960 why I love this movie is like really more because 1:26:52.800 --> 1:26:56.519 the scares and the tension and it is just such 1:26:56.560 --> 1:26:57.920 an effective horror movie. 1:26:58.160 --> 1:27:00.559 Yeah, truly, Yes, it's so. 1:27:00.640 --> 1:27:03.240 I mean it's like impossible not to get completely sucked in, 1:27:03.560 --> 1:27:08.280 Like it's there's no movie I've seen that. I've seen 1:27:08.320 --> 1:27:11.840 movies that explore the same themes, but it's like uniquely 1:27:13.040 --> 1:27:17.400 like punishing and engrossing. And the performance, like there's not 1:27:17.439 --> 1:27:21.120 a bad performance in it. Everyone is like going at 1:27:21.120 --> 1:27:23.679 a ten the entire time. It's it's awesome. 1:27:24.520 --> 1:27:28.360 And the soundtrack, oh does work. I love to this 1:27:28.400 --> 1:27:30.919 is some of my favorite writing music is the soundtrack 1:27:30.960 --> 1:27:31.200 for this. 1:27:31.280 --> 1:27:35.240 It's so and I mean Poloma just like speaking to like, 1:27:35.439 --> 1:27:38.840 I love your books so much, and it feels like 1:27:39.080 --> 1:27:44.280 you are able to work in the supernatural into family 1:27:44.320 --> 1:27:47.760 dynamics and into friendship dynamics like so uniquely, but I 1:27:47.800 --> 1:27:52.080 think you do it better than mister Astor. But also 1:27:52.160 --> 1:27:56.200 he's great at it. But I just if anyone listening 1:27:56.280 --> 1:27:59.360 has not yet read Paloma's work, I think it does 1:27:59.400 --> 1:28:01.200 with this movie does better. 1:28:01.800 --> 1:28:05.320 Oh thank you, it's really it's really nice of you 1:28:05.400 --> 1:28:07.680 to say it's true. 1:28:08.600 --> 1:28:12.240 Going back to the conversation about gender, so when ari 1:28:12.320 --> 1:28:15.599 Astor was asked in an interview with Variety, is there 1:28:15.600 --> 1:28:18.680 ever a Charlie or is she paym on from the 1:28:18.680 --> 1:28:23.160 moment she's born? Ari Astor responds, from the moment she's born. 1:28:23.400 --> 1:28:26.280 I mean, there's a girl that was displaced, but she 1:28:26.479 --> 1:28:29.360 was displaced from the very beginning. So we have this 1:28:29.479 --> 1:28:33.320 male demon that inhabits the body of someone who was 1:28:33.560 --> 1:28:37.439 assigned female at birth. And some writers have discussed a 1:28:37.600 --> 1:28:40.760 trans masque read of this movie. I want to pull 1:28:40.800 --> 1:28:44.719 from a piece in the publication Them by Sasha Geffen 1:28:45.000 --> 1:28:49.000 entitled trans Horror Stories and Society's Fear of the trans 1:28:49.000 --> 1:28:53.000 Masculine Body. What the film Hereditary reveals about society's moral 1:28:53.040 --> 1:28:57.880 panic surrounding trans masculine people. This piece points out that 1:28:58.200 --> 1:29:02.360 most trans horror story to date have stoked a fear 1:29:02.560 --> 1:29:06.000 in the trans feminine movies like you know, Silence of 1:29:06.000 --> 1:29:10.240 the Lambs and Psycho, but Sasha Geffin points out that 1:29:10.360 --> 1:29:13.960 in general, in horror movies, a prevalent trope is the 1:29:14.200 --> 1:29:19.880 idea of quote, one gender swirled up into another creates 1:29:19.960 --> 1:29:24.120 a monster. The piece goes on to say, quote. Millie 1:29:24.160 --> 1:29:27.800 Shapiro's performance as Charlie abused the character with a deep 1:29:27.880 --> 1:29:31.920 pathos and clearly conveys that she feels alienated from her body. 1:29:32.400 --> 1:29:35.719 During a phone interview, film critic Caden Mark Gardner tells 1:29:35.760 --> 1:29:39.679 me he recognized his own childhood gender dysphoria in Charlie's 1:29:39.680 --> 1:29:43.400 on screen presence. This is now a quote from Caiden 1:29:43.439 --> 1:29:46.160 Mark Gardner. When I was growing up, even though I 1:29:46.200 --> 1:29:49.280 didn't realize I was going through gender dysphoria, I was 1:29:49.320 --> 1:29:51.840 in these baggy hoodies and genes a lot of the time, 1:29:52.160 --> 1:29:55.360 sort of the way Charlie was dressing, he says. Together 1:29:55.439 --> 1:29:58.720 with film critic Willow maclay, he publishes Body Talk, a 1:29:58.800 --> 1:30:02.880 series of conversation about films that speak implicitly or explicitly 1:30:03.120 --> 1:30:06.880 to the trans experience. Many of these films are horror movies, 1:30:07.120 --> 1:30:10.160 as horror is one of the only genres where the 1:30:10.200 --> 1:30:14.439 sanctity of the body is regularly disrupted, where the distress 1:30:14.479 --> 1:30:19.480 of something akin to gender dysphoria is expressed legibly on screen. 1:30:19.720 --> 1:30:23.560 Hereditaries transition allegory involves not only the violent death of 1:30:23.600 --> 1:30:27.280 a girl, but also the torture and eventual evacuation of 1:30:27.439 --> 1:30:32.640 a CIS male body. Parentheses Peter that Charlie's transition requires 1:30:32.680 --> 1:30:36.240 so much physical violence speaks to a lingering anxiety among 1:30:36.400 --> 1:30:39.880 sis people, that transition is at best a form of 1:30:39.960 --> 1:30:44.360 mutilation and at worst a kind of death, a sloughing 1:30:44.520 --> 1:30:49.120 of one body in exchange for a new, different one. 1:30:49.560 --> 1:30:51.640 The piece goes on, I think the whole thing is 1:30:51.800 --> 1:30:54.439 worth a read. We will link it in the description, 1:30:54.560 --> 1:30:57.600 But I thought this was just a really interesting interpretation 1:30:57.880 --> 1:31:01.360 of that aspect of the movie. 1:31:01.840 --> 1:31:02.040 Yeah. 1:31:02.120 --> 1:31:05.120 Yeah, I do feel like it's like another demonstration of 1:31:05.120 --> 1:31:11.200 how open to interpretation kind of this story remains. And 1:31:11.360 --> 1:31:13.000 I feel like that's been a conversation around a lot 1:31:13.000 --> 1:31:16.360 of horror movies that we've covered, and how many of 1:31:16.400 --> 1:31:21.519 the horror movies we've covered are made by ariastrotypes of 1:31:22.000 --> 1:31:25.160 you know, like white GUYO Tours. And it doesn't make 1:31:25.200 --> 1:31:28.880 the movie less good or less impactful, but it does 1:31:29.520 --> 1:31:32.040 make it that guy again. 1:31:32.160 --> 1:31:35.200 Yeah, Yeah, I feel like I feel this. A lot 1:31:35.240 --> 1:31:38.880 of horror is like women centric and then also made 1:31:38.920 --> 1:31:42.880 by men. Yes, and it is so like steeped in 1:31:42.920 --> 1:31:49.200 this like fear of womanhood and like things that like 1:31:49.479 --> 1:31:51.760 in this movie, like women are in this, like they're 1:31:51.880 --> 1:31:54.280 part of the secret, and like men are kind of 1:31:54.280 --> 1:31:58.600 inert and like I feel like that is present in 1:31:58.680 --> 1:32:02.120 this movie and in a lot of movie that puberty, pregnancy. 1:32:02.360 --> 1:32:04.200 It's like all of these things that happen to women 1:32:04.240 --> 1:32:10.400 and that women experience are horrific and like unfathomable to 1:32:10.560 --> 1:32:12.479 the men who are creating these pieces. 1:32:12.560 --> 1:32:16.800 It's the topic of so many horror movies the class. 1:32:17.320 --> 1:32:19.400 And in this one, it's motherhood in a way. 1:32:20.680 --> 1:32:23.320 Yeah, we didn't quite get into this, but yeah, the 1:32:23.439 --> 1:32:26.720 idea of like, I don't know, the idea that like 1:32:26.760 --> 1:32:30.040 this is a mother who is an artist and yet 1:32:30.360 --> 1:32:33.639 her like her art is conflated so much with her 1:32:33.640 --> 1:32:37.640 family life, and like her dysregulation in some way is 1:32:37.680 --> 1:32:40.360 connected to her art. I don't know. I just say 1:32:40.400 --> 1:32:43.720 there's so many different entry points to this movie, to 1:32:43.760 --> 1:32:47.439 the point where I truly don't know what ari Astor 1:32:47.720 --> 1:32:49.880 is trying to say. I just know that the viewing 1:32:49.960 --> 1:32:54.080 of this movie feels very individual where I've always come 1:32:54.120 --> 1:32:56.880 at it of like my read of the movie has 1:32:57.240 --> 1:33:00.320 always been like, women are far more powerful than people 1:33:00.320 --> 1:33:03.880 give them credit for. Mothers are far more powerful than 1:33:03.920 --> 1:33:07.519 people give them credit for. But because of all of 1:33:07.520 --> 1:33:11.400 this various nagging, like that kind of all goes unseen 1:33:12.080 --> 1:33:15.559 and that all you know compounds to what I think 1:33:15.640 --> 1:33:19.680 is kind of like a dissatisfying conclusion. But like what 1:33:19.720 --> 1:33:21.840 you just said, ploment is just as valid to read 1:33:21.920 --> 1:33:26.920 of like the fear of like what generations of women 1:33:26.960 --> 1:33:31.400 are doing, and an anxiety around women and being kind 1:33:31.439 --> 1:33:36.040 of subjugated and defeated by them in like Steve's case. 1:33:36.120 --> 1:33:38.639 And I don't know, there's just like so many inns 1:33:38.800 --> 1:33:42.439 to just seeing this movie, and I like that there's 1:33:42.439 --> 1:33:46.040 not a definitive one, and that's probably why people still 1:33:46.080 --> 1:33:47.240 love it so much. 1:33:47.800 --> 1:33:50.400 Yeah, And that's part of why I also really like 1:33:50.479 --> 1:33:54.000 this movie is the is that there are so many 1:33:54.040 --> 1:33:58.960 interpretations and so many things being represented and played with 1:33:59.320 --> 1:34:02.960 throughout the movie. And it is not like this like 1:34:03.080 --> 1:34:07.120 one to one metaphor for anything in particular, and that's 1:34:07.120 --> 1:34:10.360 like what is so what makes it such good horror 1:34:10.520 --> 1:34:13.880 is that you can find something to fear because there 1:34:13.920 --> 1:34:18.280 are so many things, as you said, entry points, and 1:34:18.320 --> 1:34:20.280 that's why I think it hits for so many people. 1:34:20.560 --> 1:34:23.439 Yeah, I think there is also something to be said 1:34:23.560 --> 1:34:28.479 for the fact that we know Annie's character far better 1:34:28.600 --> 1:34:30.160 than we know her husband. 1:34:30.600 --> 1:34:33.760 We know next to nothing about him other than he's struggling. 1:34:34.000 --> 1:34:37.000 He's struggling and he's doing his best. But yeah, we 1:34:37.040 --> 1:34:41.920 see Annie working very often. We see Steve at work 1:34:42.040 --> 1:34:44.200 one time, but we don't know what he does and 1:34:44.280 --> 1:34:48.599 it's not relevant to anything. He's sidelined. Steve is for 1:34:49.360 --> 1:34:53.800 many chunks of the movie, and that's feminism. 1:34:54.720 --> 1:34:57.720 Well, it's like at least attempting to explore or like 1:34:57.840 --> 1:35:00.519 has you I don't know, I don't know. I feel 1:35:00.560 --> 1:35:03.679 like this movie is weirdly a step forward. But speaking 1:35:03.640 --> 1:35:05.559 to what you were saying a little earlier, Plobo, like, 1:35:05.640 --> 1:35:10.280 I always get hyper agitated when you know, regardless of 1:35:10.280 --> 1:35:13.519 how much I like dislike whatever, good, bad, and different 1:35:13.520 --> 1:35:17.760 in the movie when a like Oteurs burst onto the 1:35:17.760 --> 1:35:21.760 scene is a guy centering a woman's experience and being 1:35:21.800 --> 1:35:24.559 like I wrote this, I got it, I figured it out, 1:35:24.800 --> 1:35:28.040 and like, often it's horrible, Often it's awesome, But I 1:35:28.120 --> 1:35:31.800 just like I get into like a looping thing of like, 1:35:31.840 --> 1:35:35.479 but they'll always get another chance. It doesn't matter if 1:35:35.479 --> 1:35:39.920 they nail it or not. And like, do people ultimately care? 1:35:41.120 --> 1:35:45.840 Why is Ari Aster centering women in his piece? I 1:35:45.880 --> 1:35:48.920 don't need the answer, but sometimes I just get conspiratorial 1:35:49.000 --> 1:35:51.120 and I'm just like it felt like, especially in the 1:35:51.200 --> 1:35:54.920 late twenty tens, a lot of men And you can't 1:35:54.920 --> 1:35:57.759 say this for Astor because this is his first feature, 1:35:58.640 --> 1:36:00.960 but in this time there are a lot of men 1:36:00.960 --> 1:36:04.840 who were suddenly centering women in their pieces to be like, 1:36:05.080 --> 1:36:08.479 buh the no no no no, Like in disregard everything 1:36:08.520 --> 1:36:12.080 I said before, I actually have always cared about women's 1:36:12.080 --> 1:36:14.599 internal lives, and like I just took me til twenty 1:36:14.680 --> 1:36:16.600 nineteen to like do it, and then you watch it 1:36:16.640 --> 1:36:19.320 and you're like, well, this fucking sucks, and like, so 1:36:19.600 --> 1:36:21.840 I don't know. I think that I also bring an 1:36:21.880 --> 1:36:24.320 inherent anger to Yeah. 1:36:24.360 --> 1:36:29.120 I also feel like it's just like maybe semi unrelated 1:36:29.240 --> 1:36:34.040 pang about like how difficult it is to be a 1:36:34.320 --> 1:36:39.479 woman doing horror. It's so like male dominated, and yet 1:36:39.520 --> 1:36:44.240 the stories are all so frequently about women, and so 1:36:44.880 --> 1:36:47.200 I feel a bit of resentment about that. 1:36:47.800 --> 1:36:52.519 I have several theories as to why that is why 1:36:52.800 --> 1:36:58.320 men fixate on like women in horror stories because they're 1:36:58.320 --> 1:36:59.160 afraid of them. 1:36:59.640 --> 1:37:03.240 Well, they're scared of women. 1:37:03.680 --> 1:37:09.519 Let women's bodies do and I'm speaking like cis normatively here, 1:37:09.760 --> 1:37:15.000 I realize that. But as far as like pregnancy and periods. 1:37:14.800 --> 1:37:18.000 Yeah, like pussy monsters, have we covered on this fucking shell. 1:37:18.080 --> 1:37:21.640 They're like the scariest in the world, and it's like 1:37:21.720 --> 1:37:22.680 a vagina. 1:37:22.800 --> 1:37:27.280 So that's one thing. I also just think that because 1:37:27.320 --> 1:37:32.920 men tend to see women as weak and jostile and fragile, 1:37:33.160 --> 1:37:34.960 and we need to be protected and we need to 1:37:34.960 --> 1:37:39.960 be We're so delicate that the things that happen in 1:37:40.080 --> 1:37:43.080 horror movies, you know, the horrific imagery and and the 1:37:43.120 --> 1:37:49.280 stalking and the chasing and the killers stabbing, it's I think, 1:37:49.320 --> 1:37:51.640 perceived to be more horrific when those things happen to 1:37:51.760 --> 1:37:55.479 women than if, oh, if these things were happening to men, Oh, 1:37:55.520 --> 1:37:59.719 they'd be able to fight off the stabby killer or whatever. 1:37:59.760 --> 1:38:02.400 I think I think that part of the horror of 1:38:02.400 --> 1:38:05.759 so many horror movies is this is happening to a woman, 1:38:06.160 --> 1:38:08.400 and doesn't that make it so much scarier? 1:38:08.960 --> 1:38:10.720 Right, I agree, but I also like, I don't think 1:38:10.720 --> 1:38:14.400 that that's really what are a astro, but it's all 1:38:14.439 --> 1:38:17.760 of that to this movie too, like it's impossible not to. 1:38:18.280 --> 1:38:22.400 And also, like with Possession, like so much possession movies 1:38:22.479 --> 1:38:27.160 are about possessing women or children because of the corruption 1:38:27.280 --> 1:38:30.760 of innocence, and like, even if like this isn't the 1:38:30.800 --> 1:38:33.679 thing that our astor like went to the desk thinking about. 1:38:33.880 --> 1:38:37.880 When you write in genre, you bring everything to the 1:38:37.880 --> 1:38:42.120 table because like inherent in doing genre is you have 1:38:42.160 --> 1:38:44.760 to interact with everything that's been done before because of 1:38:45.280 --> 1:38:48.400 tropes and trends and things like that. So you know 1:38:48.600 --> 1:38:50.719 it is worth talking about for sure. 1:38:51.360 --> 1:38:57.200 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Men be bringing their biases too. 1:38:57.560 --> 1:38:59.479 I mean we are too, we just don't get to 1:38:59.520 --> 1:39:01.800 do it as. 1:39:01.240 --> 1:39:06.080 And women write fantastic horror, so I mean and there 1:39:06.120 --> 1:39:10.040 are Again, It's like, even since twenty eighteen, I feel 1:39:10.040 --> 1:39:12.320 like there has been some shift in terms of like 1:39:12.720 --> 1:39:15.600 who gets to tell mainstream horror stories. 1:39:15.439 --> 1:39:19.760 But always room for more movement because I was, yeah, 1:39:19.800 --> 1:39:23.400 as I was getting all worked up talking to my 1:39:23.520 --> 1:39:29.520 boyfriend about like why first time directors centering women regardless 1:39:29.520 --> 1:39:32.120 of genre, even when I like the movies. I'm still 1:39:32.120 --> 1:39:35.600 like slightly side eyeing it, which is not fair of me, 1:39:36.160 --> 1:39:40.280 but is how I feel. But in any case, you know, 1:39:40.360 --> 1:39:43.080 the real kind of stress test of like, is this 1:39:43.360 --> 1:39:47.280 genre being meaningfully diversified? Isn't like who gets to make 1:39:47.280 --> 1:39:50.280 one movie, but who gets to make three? Because I 1:39:50.280 --> 1:39:53.000 think in the last you know, five, like half decade, 1:39:53.000 --> 1:39:55.760 we've seen a lot of people get to make their 1:39:55.800 --> 1:39:58.720 first movie, but we have not seen a lot of 1:39:58.720 --> 1:40:01.960 people get to make their second movie. And so I 1:40:02.000 --> 1:40:05.240 don't know. I feel like the landscape for especially genre 1:40:05.280 --> 1:40:09.000 film is shifting, but it's a lot of people making 1:40:09.040 --> 1:40:11.880 their first movie. I want to see a more diverse 1:40:11.920 --> 1:40:15.000 group of directors make their third and fourth movies and 1:40:15.160 --> 1:40:20.559 like have the same sort of freedom to explore that 1:40:21.240 --> 1:40:24.320 the ari Astors of the world do. We're getting off topic, 1:40:24.520 --> 1:40:25.360 but I. 1:40:25.320 --> 1:40:30.160 Mean, yeah, I will say ari Astor and also Jordan Peel. 1:40:30.560 --> 1:40:35.280 I think they made like two great horror movies and 1:40:35.360 --> 1:40:38.680 then we're like, but I'm not a horror director, and 1:40:38.720 --> 1:40:42.000 then made like a third movie that's not horror and 1:40:42.400 --> 1:40:44.160 I haven't seen bos Afraid, but they might be like 1:40:44.200 --> 1:40:48.360 good movies. But I want like people to commit to 1:40:48.520 --> 1:40:51.120 the genre and keep making scary movies. 1:40:51.200 --> 1:40:54.559 I don't know, and that's why I will be seeing 1:40:54.680 --> 1:40:57.240 every m Night Shyamalan movie for the rest of my life. 1:40:57.280 --> 1:41:00.680 And that's that is my sacred voalve. I mean, I 1:41:00.680 --> 1:41:03.639 guess sometimes what he does is more thrillers, but still 1:41:04.240 --> 1:41:05.000 they're cousins. 1:41:05.520 --> 1:41:06.240 Is close enough. 1:41:06.360 --> 1:41:09.120 I'm really excited for the new m Night Chamblin movie. 1:41:09.240 --> 1:41:13.880 I'm always excited for the It's like, you know, even 1:41:13.920 --> 1:41:17.639 if they're not good, they're great, or even if they're 1:41:17.640 --> 1:41:18.320 not great, they're good. 1:41:19.000 --> 1:41:22.800 They're always like confident, big swings. They're firmly comfortable in 1:41:22.840 --> 1:41:26.479 the genre they're in, and it's just like a riot. 1:41:27.240 --> 1:41:30.559 It's a riot. Oh. The first movie I saw after 1:41:30.600 --> 1:41:35.360 I got the vaccine for COVID was Old, and I 1:41:35.400 --> 1:41:40.120 was hoping you'd say, Old, what an amazing return to 1:41:40.200 --> 1:41:43.720 the movies, What an amazing They're just high concert? What's 1:41:43.760 --> 1:41:44.120 the new one? 1:41:44.200 --> 1:41:45.880 The new one is like, oh, I just saw a 1:41:45.880 --> 1:41:47.360 trailer for it. 1:41:47.360 --> 1:41:50.560 It looks awesome. It's like there's a they're at like 1:41:50.600 --> 1:41:54.280 a stadium concert and there's a serial killer, and then 1:41:54.320 --> 1:41:57.400 you find out it's the protagonist that's the serial killer. 1:41:57.600 --> 1:42:02.080 It's because mister Shimelan loves his twists. 1:42:02.120 --> 1:42:03.160 What's his name, Josh? 1:42:04.560 --> 1:42:05.519 I can't wait. 1:42:05.800 --> 1:42:07.400 Who's the Josh in the movie? 1:42:08.479 --> 1:42:10.479 I don't know. I know the Josh of which you speak. 1:42:11.720 --> 1:42:12.679 Yes, it's Josh Hartne. 1:42:12.880 --> 1:42:16.639 Yes. Yeah, I guess the moral of our Hereditary episode 1:42:16.680 --> 1:42:21.280 is go see Trap in theaters on August second. I 1:42:21.320 --> 1:42:25.000 am genuinely a trap. Thirty thousand fans, three hundred cops, 1:42:25.000 --> 1:42:29.200 one serial killer, no escape. Yeah, I'm going. Wow, I'm going. 1:42:29.720 --> 1:42:32.360 Does anyone have anything else they'd like to say about 1:42:32.479 --> 1:42:33.640 the movie Hereditary? 1:42:34.680 --> 1:42:37.200 I could go on about the scary stuff for a 1:42:37.240 --> 1:42:39.799 long time, but I'd love to let you sleep tonight. 1:42:40.080 --> 1:42:46.320 So I mean, well, we'll be up late anyway watching Minions. 1:42:46.360 --> 1:42:48.479 So healing, healing, up late, healing? 1:42:48.760 --> 1:42:51.600 Yes, is there? I know that you said there's like 1:42:51.640 --> 1:42:54.800 a lot of technical stuff that you were impressed by 1:42:54.840 --> 1:42:57.479 and research. Is there anything in particular that's stuck out 1:42:57.520 --> 1:42:59.559 on that end because we don't really cover that stuff 1:42:59.600 --> 1:43:00.479 as much in the show. 1:43:01.240 --> 1:43:05.479 So I definitely was tracking, like I went through the 1:43:05.520 --> 1:43:10.080 movie and was tracking like the progression of fear with 1:43:10.160 --> 1:43:14.200 a two step of like uncanny and then scary, and 1:43:14.320 --> 1:43:19.120 just like I think it was really effective how those 1:43:19.160 --> 1:43:22.439 two things were balanced throughout the movie and then heightened 1:43:22.800 --> 1:43:27.160 to like an eleven in like the third act. Also 1:43:27.439 --> 1:43:34.160 the way that he played with the viewer's anxiety around 1:43:34.240 --> 1:43:38.400 what was going on on screen and then use the 1:43:38.439 --> 1:43:43.840 momentum of that anxiety to subvert, like to give a 1:43:43.880 --> 1:43:47.680 new twist. Like an example would be when Peter is 1:43:47.680 --> 1:43:50.720 going walking through the room, as we talked about, and 1:43:50.760 --> 1:43:54.760 then Tony's in the corner, and then you think that 1:43:54.880 --> 1:43:58.679 he's going to interact with her, but then it turns 1:43:58.680 --> 1:44:01.360 and it's something completely different, and that happened with the 1:44:02.080 --> 1:44:06.960 head lobbing off as well. And then also in the attic, 1:44:07.439 --> 1:44:09.360 when you know that the body is there and you're 1:44:09.400 --> 1:44:12.040 expecting the thing for him to encounter to be the body, 1:44:12.479 --> 1:44:16.080 and you're bracing yourself for the headless, dead body, but 1:44:16.120 --> 1:44:20.720 he turns around it's something completely different and totally terrifying. 1:44:20.960 --> 1:44:26.000 And that just like relentless, like feeding into someone's fear 1:44:26.200 --> 1:44:28.800 and then using that fear as a jumping off point 1:44:28.800 --> 1:44:33.800 on something even scarier, I think is really great. It is. 1:44:34.080 --> 1:44:36.920 I feel like, yeah, like a lot of what made 1:44:36.920 --> 1:44:39.479 this movie work for me, especially for the first time 1:44:39.520 --> 1:44:41.720 but also like it is a movie that very much 1:44:42.120 --> 1:44:45.599 rewards on reviewing because it is like playing on what 1:44:45.640 --> 1:44:48.000 you expect to happen with a jump scarre. It is 1:44:48.040 --> 1:44:52.520 playing on like tropes and like, I don't know, it's 1:44:52.560 --> 1:44:55.000 like many Bechtel Cast episodes. I end by being like, well, 1:44:55.040 --> 1:44:57.479 I talked a lot of shit, but this movie fucking rips, 1:44:58.120 --> 1:44:59.639 and I will be watching it again. 1:45:00.240 --> 1:45:03.800 Yeah, it's definitely a horror fans horror movie, I think, 1:45:04.760 --> 1:45:08.719 because it kind of knows your psychology of having seen 1:45:08.800 --> 1:45:09.799 a lot of these movies. 1:45:10.640 --> 1:45:11.040 For sure. 1:45:11.560 --> 1:45:14.439 I hope that ari Astor makes more horror movies. I 1:45:15.960 --> 1:45:18.080 was about to say I will watch Bo's Afraid, but 1:45:18.439 --> 1:45:20.360 you know, I'm gonna temper that. I actually don't know 1:45:20.479 --> 1:45:23.519 because it looked it's so hard to like. It takes 1:45:23.560 --> 1:45:26.360 a movie with a very long run time to dissuade 1:45:26.400 --> 1:45:29.920 me from watching a movie where Patti Lapone and Nathan 1:45:30.000 --> 1:45:34.360 Lane play the parents. But oh yeah, I know, like 1:45:34.600 --> 1:45:40.040 two Broadway legends playing the parents of the psychological movie. 1:45:40.080 --> 1:45:42.200 But it's three hours long, So what are you gonna do? 1:45:42.520 --> 1:45:44.480 I don't know if I'm gonna see kinds of kindness? 1:45:44.920 --> 1:45:46.519 You know, it's three Hours Long. 1:45:46.560 --> 1:45:47.760 Didn't care for it. 1:45:47.960 --> 1:45:50.839 I am looking forward to like Long Legs. 1:45:52.000 --> 1:45:53.800 I heard it's so scary. 1:45:54.160 --> 1:45:57.840 I'm hoping it will be the next Hereditary for me. 1:45:58.080 --> 1:46:00.240 That's that's why I've been thinking about it and this 1:46:00.400 --> 1:46:03.240 because that movie. I went to see it in theaters 1:46:03.240 --> 1:46:07.200 and I was like, yes, I have been utterly frightened. 1:46:07.280 --> 1:46:10.759 And I've been I've been chasing that high and longing 1:46:10.800 --> 1:46:13.000 for it, and I want to go and see Long 1:46:13.080 --> 1:46:15.559 Legs and be utterly frightened. I hope all these people 1:46:15.680 --> 1:46:18.160 talking about how they like left the theater crying are 1:46:18.200 --> 1:46:19.040 not exaggerating. 1:46:19.600 --> 1:46:23.719 I have not seen a an Oz Perkins movie yet, 1:46:24.800 --> 1:46:26.479 so I am I'm really interested. 1:46:26.760 --> 1:46:27.640 Yeah, I think I'll see it. 1:46:27.680 --> 1:46:29.559 That's the kind of nepotism I can get behind. 1:46:30.520 --> 1:46:33.000 Yeah, I think I'll see it and then probably have 1:46:33.360 --> 1:46:36.200 just full body pains all over again. 1:46:36.720 --> 1:46:37.000 Yay. 1:46:37.520 --> 1:46:40.160 Yeah, I will be saying I'm excited to see Long Legs. 1:46:40.600 --> 1:46:42.520 I'm excited to see Trap. 1:46:43.120 --> 1:46:43.360 Yeah. 1:46:43.400 --> 1:46:46.479 Those are the two horror horror entries I'm excited to 1:46:46.520 --> 1:46:50.120 see coming up. Yeah, and whenever, whenever the next Saw 1:46:50.200 --> 1:46:54.040 movie comes up, because that's where Caitlyn and o oh yeah, 1:46:54.520 --> 1:46:59.519 baby eleven that's the slasher horror franchise that Caitlin and 1:46:59.560 --> 1:47:02.240 I are fully on the same page about. 1:47:02.280 --> 1:47:05.040 Oh oh baby, Like some months ago, I watched every 1:47:05.080 --> 1:47:05.920 single Saw movie. 1:47:06.360 --> 1:47:07.360 I'm working my way through. 1:47:07.520 --> 1:47:08.640 What's your favorite. 1:47:09.120 --> 1:47:11.080 Let me tell you. When you watch every single Saw 1:47:11.120 --> 1:47:13.559 movie within a span of like two weeks, watching like 1:47:13.640 --> 1:47:18.680 one sometimes two a night, they really blur together. I think, like, 1:47:19.320 --> 1:47:23.400 and some are really just so bad. But I love 1:47:23.439 --> 1:47:26.880 the commitment to like the twist that doesn't make sense. 1:47:26.920 --> 1:47:29.760 The twists, it's like it's like soap opera levels. It's 1:47:29.760 --> 1:47:32.879 like a ton noveloped by the end of it, Like it's. 1:47:32.720 --> 1:47:34.040 Like you never see them coming. 1:47:34.240 --> 1:47:37.240 No, You're like, oh. And then the music every time 1:47:37.280 --> 1:47:43.760 the music is like it's like so so extra. I 1:47:43.800 --> 1:47:45.240 love it entirely. 1:47:45.880 --> 1:47:47.000 It's the best franchise. 1:47:47.439 --> 1:47:50.920 It really is in every I mean, you know, say 1:47:50.960 --> 1:47:53.360 what you will about his methods, but he does want 1:47:53.400 --> 1:47:56.559 to play a game, and I celebrate that. 1:47:56.840 --> 1:47:59.720 I mean, feminist icon Jigsaw. 1:48:00.160 --> 1:48:03.639 It's true, he loves his wife. 1:48:05.439 --> 1:48:08.440 Hereditary does pass the Bechdel. 1:48:08.160 --> 1:48:10.839 Test, Yeah, I mean at many. 1:48:10.680 --> 1:48:16.400 Points, Oh, Joan and Annie, Oh they're talking about seances. Oh, 1:48:16.800 --> 1:48:23.840 they're talking about grief et cetera. Annie talks to Charlie. Yeah, 1:48:23.880 --> 1:48:28.200 there's there's numerous passes our nipple scale, though. 1:48:28.840 --> 1:48:32.520 I don't know pass past. 1:48:32.280 --> 1:48:34.160 Yeah, I don't think it's I don't know how to 1:48:34.360 --> 1:48:37.120 sign it. So a scale of zero to five nipples 1:48:37.120 --> 1:48:40.080 where we rate the movie, examining it through an intersectional 1:48:40.120 --> 1:48:43.840 feminist lens. I have no freaking idea for this movie. Again, 1:48:43.880 --> 1:48:48.200 my brain ceases to work for movies this scary, so 1:48:48.240 --> 1:48:49.360 I can't really think about them. 1:48:49.840 --> 1:48:52.280 I would probably if I'm making a stab at it, 1:48:52.320 --> 1:48:55.080 I would probably fall somewhere in the middle here, or 1:48:55.600 --> 1:48:58.320 maybe maybe a little on the generous side of the middle. 1:48:58.760 --> 1:49:02.000 I don't know. It is really tricky one. You know, 1:49:02.080 --> 1:49:06.400 this movie certainly centers women, but also I mean this 1:49:06.520 --> 1:49:09.439 specifically the case of Charlie goes out of its way 1:49:09.560 --> 1:49:16.080 to demonize girl for a reasons that I'm still like 1:49:16.240 --> 1:49:19.479 not clear on outside of in the terest of a twist. 1:49:19.600 --> 1:49:23.599 Why that decision was made, I don't know. I really 1:49:23.640 --> 1:49:27.280 don't know. IM My instinct is somewhere down the middle. 1:49:27.479 --> 1:49:31.480 But even that feels a little nebulous. 1:49:32.080 --> 1:49:36.960 It almost feels like, I mean, this is something I 1:49:36.960 --> 1:49:40.479 probably should have brought up earlier. But all the women 1:49:40.840 --> 1:49:44.960 or girls that we see on screen or that we 1:49:45.439 --> 1:49:49.240 know about but don't really see because they are dead, 1:49:49.479 --> 1:49:54.799 I e. The grandmother are like harbingers of a scary 1:49:55.479 --> 1:50:00.439 cult and like, you know, evil witchy types, and then 1:50:00.479 --> 1:50:03.599 all the men are just like, don't do they're boring? 1:50:04.000 --> 1:50:06.120 Well, see that I don't hate is all women are 1:50:06.120 --> 1:50:08.800 witches and all men are boring. Like that's a kind 1:50:08.840 --> 1:50:12.759 of like prescriptive thing I could get complete. 1:50:13.600 --> 1:50:16.120 That's one view of it. But I also think that 1:50:16.200 --> 1:50:18.639 there would be people who walk away from this being 1:50:18.720 --> 1:50:22.400 like women are evil and men are just innocent bystanders. 1:50:22.560 --> 1:50:23.000 Well I don't. 1:50:23.240 --> 1:50:24.920 I don't read it that way, but I think there 1:50:24.960 --> 1:50:26.280 are people who would. 1:50:26.520 --> 1:50:29.400 But even so, it's like, ultimately they are still serving 1:50:29.439 --> 1:50:32.680 the patriarchy. That's what I find more frustrating, is like 1:50:33.080 --> 1:50:36.479 they have a lot of agency, but still they're like, no, 1:50:37.000 --> 1:50:40.439 the devil is a man, the devil is a sis man, 1:50:40.520 --> 1:50:42.639 and we feel that that is certain. 1:50:43.280 --> 1:50:45.160 I don't know where's Queen payment. 1:50:46.200 --> 1:50:49.160 They didn't want her, we had her, they killed her. 1:50:49.320 --> 1:50:49.599 I know. 1:50:50.520 --> 1:50:53.639 So the answer is I don't fucking know. I don't know. Paulavi, 1:50:53.760 --> 1:50:56.400 do you do you have a feeling on this, you. 1:50:56.360 --> 1:50:59.840 Know, I would also like probably put it on like 1:51:00.120 --> 1:51:04.880 the middle to like higher middle. I don't know, it's 1:51:04.880 --> 1:51:08.280 hard to there's definitely a point five in there somewhere. 1:51:08.960 --> 1:51:12.639 Is it a three point five or is it a four? WHOA, 1:51:13.160 --> 1:51:14.320 I'm not sure. 1:51:14.479 --> 1:51:17.080 I would go I would go three maybe three pot 1:51:17.120 --> 1:51:21.320 because it's like there's clear intent two, Like there is 1:51:21.479 --> 1:51:25.960 intellectual curiosity about what women are experiencing in this book, 1:51:26.000 --> 1:51:28.160 which maybe is like the bars on the floor for 1:51:28.240 --> 1:51:30.880 a lot of that, like that's true, but this movie 1:51:31.040 --> 1:51:35.040 is like deeply interested in what Annie is going through. 1:51:35.200 --> 1:51:40.120 It is clearly like we know that Annie, well, actually 1:51:40.200 --> 1:51:41.880 we don't know. I feel like it's almost maybe a 1:51:41.920 --> 1:51:44.240 litmus test for like who are you gonna believe here? 1:51:44.280 --> 1:51:50.200 But like Annie is ultimately right about perceiving what is happening, 1:51:50.920 --> 1:51:54.920 but she is struggling with mental illness. It's not all 1:51:54.920 --> 1:51:57.760 like the answer is a little bit in between, but 1:51:57.840 --> 1:52:01.479 ultimately it's like it's not like a lot of horror 1:52:01.479 --> 1:52:05.040 movies I've seen have led to like it was all 1:52:05.080 --> 1:52:07.360 in her head and that is the tragedy of it, 1:52:07.439 --> 1:52:09.880 But it's not all in Nannie's head, like It's part 1:52:09.920 --> 1:52:12.439 of the tragedy is that people don't believe what she's saying, 1:52:12.680 --> 1:52:16.160 and the same is true for Charlie, even though her 1:52:16.200 --> 1:52:19.519 being a demon yeah kind of muddles that a little bit, 1:52:19.560 --> 1:52:21.600 which is why that choice never makes sense to me. 1:52:21.760 --> 1:52:24.599 But like it's not like the movie is disinterested in 1:52:25.520 --> 1:52:28.760 what she's experiencing. I just feel like the results a 1:52:28.800 --> 1:52:30.160 little all over the place. 1:52:30.479 --> 1:52:34.519 Kind of in the opposite direction of the feeling of 1:52:34.560 --> 1:52:37.799 being too afraid to process this. I think I enjoy 1:52:38.760 --> 1:52:42.800 the fears that this presents, and it's like tilting my 1:52:42.880 --> 1:52:46.679 bias maybe like more in favor that you know. It's 1:52:46.720 --> 1:52:49.479 I'm like trying to separate like what I love about 1:52:49.479 --> 1:52:51.400 it as a horror movie and like how I would 1:52:51.439 --> 1:52:56.680 assess it as from like the Bechdel cast perspective, right. 1:52:57.120 --> 1:52:59.400 I Mean, it's a tricky one for this show because 1:52:59.439 --> 1:53:01.720 I don't think this movie is trying to be overtly 1:53:01.760 --> 1:53:05.240 feminist or not. And that's fine, but yeah, when it 1:53:05.240 --> 1:53:08.000 comes down to like how are the women of this 1:53:08.040 --> 1:53:10.920 world and story treated? I guess for me on my 1:53:11.120 --> 1:53:13.759 personal like how much I enjoy it, rating gets higher 1:53:14.640 --> 1:53:19.280 in this specific world that we're talking about I would 1:53:19.360 --> 1:53:22.320 probably have downed it about a three, three and a 1:53:22.360 --> 1:53:24.000 half on a good day. 1:53:24.080 --> 1:53:28.960 Oh see, I think, and maybe this is just my fright, 1:53:31.040 --> 1:53:33.040 but I would give it like a two. I think 1:53:33.720 --> 1:53:43.120 because of my perceived conflation of mental illness equals evil, 1:53:43.800 --> 1:53:48.600 demonic possession, and because our Astra has kind of a 1:53:48.720 --> 1:53:54.160 checkered history with that, and in two of his movies 1:53:54.280 --> 1:54:00.080 there's some questionable stuff happening regarding mental illness and conflating it. 1:54:00.080 --> 1:54:04.719 It's like, you know, violence or demonic possession or whatever 1:54:04.720 --> 1:54:08.080 it is. I really struggle with that, So I think 1:54:08.120 --> 1:54:11.040 I'll land on a two. But I also acknowledge that. 1:54:11.840 --> 1:54:14.160 And again, I think this is like a very well 1:54:14.200 --> 1:54:19.240 directed movie and the production design is incredible, the cinematography, 1:54:19.280 --> 1:54:23.439 the performances. But I will never watch it again because 1:54:23.479 --> 1:54:24.280 I'm just too scared. 1:54:24.479 --> 1:54:26.800 And this time you mean it, and this time I 1:54:27.000 --> 1:54:27.400 mean it. 1:54:27.560 --> 1:54:29.920 If someone if someone else says come on to my 1:54:30.080 --> 1:54:33.800 podcast to talk about hereditary I'll say no, thank you. 1:54:33.840 --> 1:54:36.160 If someone says come on to my podcast, I will 1:54:36.160 --> 1:54:36.440 say no. 1:54:37.840 --> 1:54:40.560 I will normally say yes, but not if it's a 1:54:40.640 --> 1:54:44.520 hereditary thing. Anyway. So yeah, two nipples, and I'm giving 1:54:44.560 --> 1:54:48.960 them both to Rex the dog, who I think in 1:54:49.080 --> 1:54:51.240 my memory survive. 1:54:51.360 --> 1:54:56.839 Tell yeah, yeah, I guess I'm gonna go three point 1:54:57.000 --> 1:55:02.320 two five, and I I get to give one get 1:55:02.320 --> 1:55:05.560 I would give one to Annie. I'm to give one 1:55:06.240 --> 1:55:11.120 to Anne Dowd's performance when she's pretending to not know 1:55:11.360 --> 1:55:13.840 about the doormat, because I just think it's a really 1:55:13.880 --> 1:55:16.360 funny moment where she's like, Oh, your mom made these, 1:55:16.920 --> 1:55:21.920 that's weird. I really enjoy that moment every time. Give 1:55:21.960 --> 1:55:24.920 one to Charlie. She did nothing wrong. She didn't ask 1:55:25.000 --> 1:55:26.640 to be born for crying out loud. 1:55:26.680 --> 1:55:30.240 She didn't have to have a payment demon put inside her. 1:55:30.400 --> 1:55:33.080 I know. And I'll give point my last point two 1:55:33.120 --> 1:55:34.720 five to Steve. He did his best. 1:55:35.920 --> 1:55:38.200 I think I would be swayed down to like a 1:55:38.240 --> 1:55:42.360 three because, if I think about it, everything we've talked about. 1:55:42.560 --> 1:55:46.560 I have also had my critiques about how how those 1:55:46.640 --> 1:55:49.480 types of things landed in this movie. Do I have 1:55:49.520 --> 1:55:50.280 to give these away? 1:55:50.880 --> 1:55:51.520 You don't have to. 1:55:51.680 --> 1:55:53.320 You don't have to. You can keep them for yourself. 1:55:53.560 --> 1:55:55.440 I don't know if I want to keep those in 1:55:55.480 --> 1:55:58.200 my house. I think they'll bring some bad juju. 1:55:58.560 --> 1:56:00.000 You can put them in the treehouse if you. 1:56:00.160 --> 1:56:04.080 Want yeah, we can put the space heaters on for 1:56:04.120 --> 1:56:05.920 them to keep them warm as well. 1:56:06.080 --> 1:56:09.680 Yes, yeah, well, Paaloma, thank you so much for joining us. 1:56:10.200 --> 1:56:13.240 Thanks so much for having me and talking about this 1:56:13.320 --> 1:56:13.560 with me. 1:56:14.120 --> 1:56:16.160 Oh my gosh. And before you go, tell us a 1:56:16.160 --> 1:56:18.120 little bit about your book and where we can where 1:56:18.120 --> 1:56:18.880 we can find it. 1:56:19.840 --> 1:56:22.520 So my short story collection is called Mouth. It is 1:56:22.640 --> 1:56:29.920 a collection of eleven dark, weird, surreal stories that are 1:56:30.120 --> 1:56:34.520 mostly centered on women. So if you liked Hereditary and 1:56:34.880 --> 1:56:38.600 you like weird stuff and want to feel uncomfortable while 1:56:38.640 --> 1:56:42.240 reading or watching something, maybe check out my book, which 1:56:42.280 --> 1:56:44.080 is wherever books are sold. 1:56:44.320 --> 1:56:48.640 As I say, we'll link to it in the description. 1:56:48.280 --> 1:56:50.800 Of this episode wonderful it fuck it rocks and. 1:56:50.880 --> 1:56:54.480 Uh where else can people follow you on social media? 1:56:54.640 --> 1:56:59.080 Maybe you can find me on Instagram and a very 1:56:59.240 --> 1:57:03.160 infrequently to Twitter at Polo mioo. 1:57:08.040 --> 1:57:12.120 And you can follow us on Instagram at Bechdel Cast. 1:57:12.280 --> 1:57:16.920 You can subscribe to our Matreon at patreon dot com 1:57:16.920 --> 1:57:22.800 slash Bechdel Cast, where there lives an episode on Midsummar. 1:57:22.960 --> 1:57:25.600 So if you want to check out our thoughts on 1:57:26.600 --> 1:57:29.600 ari Asta's other horror movie from this era. 1:57:29.600 --> 1:57:32.080 Yeah, don't, don't hold your breath on the bow as 1:57:32.160 --> 1:57:37.280 Afraid episode, but uh, you got your aster episodes, you freaks. 1:57:37.360 --> 1:57:42.880 Hope you're happy, but yeah, go over to our Matreon. 1:57:43.320 --> 1:57:45.640 It's five dollars a month and it gets you access 1:57:45.720 --> 1:57:49.960 to the entire back catalog of our over one hundred 1:57:50.040 --> 1:57:55.600 bonus episodes and enjoy a fun, goofy little theme that 1:57:55.640 --> 1:57:58.000 we conjure up every month. 1:57:58.320 --> 1:58:01.680 And you can get merch at tepa slash The Bechdel Cast. 1:58:02.000 --> 1:58:04.280 It's later polohoma is. I'm gonna let her go to 1:58:04.320 --> 1:58:14.080 bed and uh, don't let payment bite. Bye bye bye. 1:58:16.120 --> 1:58:19.400 The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by 1:58:19.480 --> 1:58:23.360 Caitlin Derante and Jamie Loftis, produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited 1:58:23.440 --> 1:58:26.640 by Mola Board. Our theme song was composed by Mike 1:58:26.760 --> 1:58:31.120 Kaplan with vocals by Katherine Voskresenski. Our logo and merch 1:58:31.280 --> 1:58:34.240 is designed by Jamie Loftis and a special thanks to 1:58:34.280 --> 1:58:38.680 Aristotle Assevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit 1:58:38.720 --> 1:58:40.680 linktree slash Bechdel Cast