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Speaker 1: On the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 2: The questions asked if movies have women and them, are

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Speaker 2: all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they

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Speaker 2: have individualism? It's the patriarchy, z Ephyn bast start changing

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Speaker 2: with the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 1: Hale, Caitlon, Yeah, Hale, James Amon.

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Speaker 3: It actually works pretty well, a little too well, a

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Speaker 3: little too well, too well, a little suspicious, I think.

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Speaker 1: Well, welcome to the Beymon Cast. My name's jaymon Leyman and.

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Speaker 3: My name is Kymon Deraymon.

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, wow, look at us, and this is the

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Speaker 1: show where we talk about your favorite movies from an

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Speaker 1: intersectional feminist perspective, using the Bechdel Test as a jumping

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Speaker 1: point for discussion. But Kaitlyn, what the hell? Cape? Sorry,

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Speaker 1: I'm so sorry, came on, came on? Came on, Deraimon?

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Speaker 1: What is that? It's not gonna stop being funny to me?

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Speaker 1: Buckle in for an episode? Uh, came on, Deraymond. What

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Speaker 1: is the Bechdel Test?

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Speaker 3: It is a media metric created by Alison Bechdel. I

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Speaker 3: almost tried to make Alison Bechdel's name demonic as well.

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Speaker 1: But she just leave her out of it.

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Speaker 3: It's not Yeah, I'm so sorry, two days out.

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Speaker 1: Of Pride Month and you're demonizing Alison Bechdel.

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Speaker 3: Come on, damn anyway. It's a media metric, first appearing

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Speaker 3: in her comic Dicks to Watch Out For in the

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Speaker 3: nineteen eighties. It's often called the Bechdel Wallace test because

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Speaker 3: it was co created by Alison Bechdel and her friend

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Speaker 3: Liz Wallace. It was kind of created as a bit.

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Speaker 3: It appears in the comic as as a bit specific.

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Speaker 1: Yeah that like more references how few queer women there

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Speaker 1: are in media. It's always more complicated that it's presented

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Speaker 1: in the mainstream.

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Speaker 3: Indeed, and there are many different versions of it. The

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Speaker 3: one that we use is this, do two characters of

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Speaker 3: a marginalized gender have names? Do they speak to each other?

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Speaker 3: And is there conversation about something other than a man

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Speaker 3: or about something other than Peymon? If so, it passes

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Speaker 3: the Bechdel test.

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Speaker 1: I guess are we to believe? I mean, Peymon is

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Speaker 1: pretty aggressively gendered. I guess, yeah, yeah, so tell me

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Speaker 1: about it. We can't like really talk like many like,

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Speaker 1: we can't be like Paymon is a genderless entity. In fact,

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Speaker 1: that's part of the whole thing, all right, never mind.

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Speaker 3: The whole and yeah, we'll talk about it.

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Speaker 1: Fuck what I was about to say. And today we

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Speaker 1: are covering a movie that I am pretty sure we

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Speaker 1: have gotten pretty consistent, especially during like horror movie season,

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Speaker 1: We've gotten pretty consistent requests for since it came out,

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Speaker 1: and that is our Asters twenty eighteen movie, Hereditary. And

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Speaker 1: we have with us not just an incredible writer, not

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Speaker 1: just an incredible person, but number one Hereditary fan. Let's

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Speaker 1: get her in here.

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Speaker 3: Let's she's a writer and author of the short story

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Speaker 3: collection entitled Mouth, which just came out, so check it out.

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Speaker 3: It's Paloma Ghosh, Hello, Hi, Hello, come.

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Speaker 4: So my name actually does start with a pece so.

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Speaker 3: Pala mon wow, pala, and it has a lot of

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Speaker 3: the same letters as Peymon. So I kind of fucked

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Speaker 3: that intro up. So it's Peymon gosh Hello, Hi.

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Speaker 4: Although as a long suffering Digimon fan, I just I'm

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Speaker 4: envisioning this as everyone's Digimon names right now.

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Speaker 1: Oh, it kind of is.

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Speaker 5: Wow.

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Speaker 1: I was a Pokemon girl. I was basic. Oh I

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Speaker 1: was basic. I know. Yeah, And the rivalry begins quick pivot.

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Speaker 1: So we're re covering Hereditary Caitlin came on is under Duress.

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Speaker 1: I'm really excited. I feel like we have a real

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Speaker 1: range of opinions in the chat about Hereditary twenty eighteen.

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Speaker 1: So let's start with you, Paloma. What is your connection

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Speaker 1: to this movie? What is your history with Hereditary?

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Speaker 4: So I am a fan of horror movies and try

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Speaker 4: to watch like every horror movie that is supposedly good,

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Speaker 4: even the ones that are supposedly not good. So when

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Speaker 4: this came out, all of the talk about it was

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Speaker 4: really exciting. People were like, I left the theater and

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Speaker 4: like threw up or whatever. So I had to see it,

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Speaker 4: and I saw it in theaters and it scared the

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Speaker 4: shit out of me. I had trouble sleeping. I had nightmares.

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Speaker 4: I had like, you know, wake up in the middle

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Speaker 4: of the night, gasping nightmares. And I was so scared.

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Speaker 4: And so I was like, this movie rules, because if

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Speaker 4: you watch a lot of horror, when something genuinely like

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Speaker 4: scares the shit out of you, it's exciting and not revolting.

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Speaker 4: And as a writer, I was like, Okay, this was

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Speaker 4: successful for me. I must immediately pull it apart and

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Speaker 4: figure out why. So I watched it over and over.

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Speaker 4: I have outlined it, I have like tracked scares. I've

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Speaker 4: tried to figure out like the mechanics of how this

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Speaker 4: movie fucked me up like badly, and a lot of

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Speaker 4: people I know as well for a while.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, whether you like this movie or you don't like it,

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Speaker 1: I feel like it's almost import you have to be

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Speaker 1: so hardened to the worlds for it to not fuck

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Speaker 1: you up truly. But I'm curious about how Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: we'll talk about it, but like, I'm getting so amped

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Speaker 1: and terrified to talk about this movie. Caitlin came on,

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Speaker 1: what is your history with Hereditary?

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Speaker 3: Okay? I saw it in theaters and it was probably

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Speaker 3: the the most unpleasant movie theater going experience I've ever had.

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Speaker 1: I remember, I think you maybe texted me after you

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Speaker 1: saw this and you were just like, I've just had

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Speaker 1: I've just had a hell of a night. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So I don't seek out horror movies as much as

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Speaker 3: most other genres. It's not that I don't like horror.

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Speaker 3: There are many horror movies I love, but I'm very

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Speaker 3: easily startled and scary movies. Even when they're not very

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Speaker 3: scary and not very good, they still make me so

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Speaker 3: nervous and just like stricken with anxiety. And I'm pretty

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Speaker 3: squeamish when it comes to like guts and gore and

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Speaker 3: blood and body horror. So the odds are just stacked

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Speaker 3: against me. So I struggle with a lot of horror movies,

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Speaker 3: but I still see a lot of them. And I

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Speaker 3: went to go see Hereditary because I heard that it

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Speaker 3: was so scary and so well done and like very

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Speaker 3: well directed, and there were incredible performances. So I went

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Speaker 3: to see the movie and I walked away from it

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Speaker 3: in full body pain because I was so clenched up,

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Speaker 3: just like shoulders to my ears, like plugging my ears

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Speaker 3: the whole time. It's just so tight and tense.

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Speaker 1: So it worked.

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Speaker 3: It worked. It was a very effective horror movie. There

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Speaker 3: aren't that many jump scares. There's maybe only two or

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Speaker 3: three things that might startle you, but it just fills

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Speaker 3: you with well, I won't speak for everyone. It filled

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Speaker 3: me with such dread such.

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Speaker 1: I felt fine. I felt fine the whole movie, so just.

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Speaker 3: But like dread that I've never felt before, Like other

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Speaker 3: movies will be like, oh, I feel horrible for now,

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Speaker 3: but here's another scene where I can kind of breathe

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Speaker 3: a sigh of relief before the tension ramps up again.

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Speaker 3: This movie was just constant dread and tension and scariness.

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Speaker 3: So I walked away in pain. But I was also like, wow,

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Speaker 3: that was like a beautifully crafted movie as far as

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Speaker 3: like technical cinematography, editing, sound design, all that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 3: The performance is incredible, Tony Kolett give the woman an

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Speaker 3: oscar unbelievable. But also I was like, I never want

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Speaker 3: to see that movie again. I refuse to cover it

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Speaker 3: on the Bechdel Cast. It's the one movie that I

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Speaker 3: won't do. I've publicly said this on the show, and

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Speaker 3: yet here we are, Here we are, and I've watched

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Speaker 3: the movie two more times to prep for this episode.

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Speaker 1: It took half a decade, you know. It's like we

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Speaker 1: slowly wore you down. We covered Midsummer a couple of

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Speaker 1: years ago on the Matreon and.

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Speaker 3: Now even we're here.

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Speaker 1: So what was it? Did you feel any differently revisiting it?

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Speaker 3: I felt the same because I forgot enough stuff that

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Speaker 3: everything was pretty fresh upon the rewatch. The jump scares

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Speaker 3: still scared the hell on me. The dread was still there,

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Speaker 3: and I feel horrible right now. I just want everyone

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Speaker 3: to know. Hell yeah, well the listeners out there, please

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Speaker 3: get me your sympathy. Thank you so much.

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Speaker 4: I thought on the sixth watch, I was like, it's

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Speaker 4: not gonna scare me anymore. I've seen it so many times.

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Speaker 4: It was Hubris. Still last night, I was just like

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Speaker 4: in the dark, like, oh God.

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Speaker 1: It's happening again. Literally, I mean, yeah.

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Speaker 3: Jamie, what's your relationship with the movie.

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Speaker 1: I feel like it's been a while since we've had

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Speaker 1: an episode like this, but this feels like a classic

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Speaker 1: Bechdel cast dynamic where I think I'm somewhere in the

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Speaker 1: middle here where I didn't see this movie when it

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Speaker 1: first came out, but I saw it shortly after, and

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Speaker 1: I think came on. I was coming, oh, there's a

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Speaker 1: cat pull on the cat sighting pull. Him and I

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Speaker 1: both have a black cat and a gray.

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Speaker 4: Cat and the hot girls special it really is.

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Speaker 1: It's a sacred bot. So, yeah, I didn't see it

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Speaker 1: in theaters. I wish I had. I would like to

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Speaker 1: see this movie in theaters, would you?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I mean truly, because I haven't seen Bo's Afraid Because

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Speaker 1: no matter how much I like a director, if the

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Speaker 1: movie's too long, I'm not seeing it in theaters so long,

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Speaker 1: I just couldn't. But but ari Astor's first two movies

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Speaker 1: I think are genuinely really good, and especially with Hereditary,

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Speaker 1: even though I've seen it fewer times than I've seen Midsummer,

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Speaker 1: it's I mean, whether you like it or not, it's

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Speaker 1: a very special, uniquely terrifying movie. The fact that it's

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Speaker 1: his first feature is absolutely wild. I was watching it

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Speaker 1: with my boyfriend last night, and it it's almost frustrating

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Speaker 1: that this, like you know, this like male Otur who

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Speaker 1: from what we can tell at the time this movie

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Speaker 1: came out, nothing meaningfully traumatizing has happened to him. He

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Speaker 1: talks about that in interviews and then he makes this

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Speaker 1: and you're like, and it's good, Like that's so fucked,

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Speaker 1: But I think it is. I think it's like a

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Speaker 1: really special movie. Yeah. The first time I saw it,

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Speaker 1: I sort of was like, I've seen it all, like

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Speaker 1: fucking shock me. And it does. And it's like, kind

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Speaker 1: of in a campy sense, fun to rewatch, where it's like,

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Speaker 1: you know, on even the first rewatch, it is so

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Speaker 1: obvious the horrible thing that's going to happen. He hints

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Speaker 1: at it like a humorous amount of times to the

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Speaker 1: point where it's like, I think this was my third

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Speaker 1: viewing of it, and I did laugh when they do

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Speaker 1: the set of like, and here's this poll in the street? Interesting?

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Speaker 1: And do you have your EpiPen? Interesting? Everything I like

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Speaker 1: and dislike about ari Astors in this movie. I've watched

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Speaker 1: this I've watched it now in three very different emotional spaces.

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Speaker 1: I was having like a harder time with it this time,

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Speaker 1: but not because of the movie itself, just because of

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Speaker 1: sort of like some of the themes of grief and processing.

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Speaker 1: Like I was having a difficult time with it, but

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Speaker 1: I also think, Wow, another cat, and that's flee who's

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Speaker 1: on one? Because Casper is in my bedroom and he's

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Speaker 1: going to knock things down until he can be with

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Speaker 1: his brother, until he can be with his other paym on.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, no, I I feel like this movie has

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Speaker 1: hit me different every single time. It's always terrifying. This

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Speaker 1: is the first time I've seen this movie since I

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Speaker 1: have done a lot of research like Field and books

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Speaker 1: with spiritualism, we don't read books, not for this show.

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Speaker 1: But Caitlyn, I'm sorry, I'm so sorry. I've been cheating

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Speaker 1: on you.

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Speaker 3: I've read You've been reading this whole time, this whole time.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I released a podcast about the history of spiritualism

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Speaker 1: two years ago and I hadn't watched it since and

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Speaker 1: so like it was interesting to engage with on that level.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, this movie is fucking terrifying, and I

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Speaker 1: it's so it's so hard to talk about for this

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Speaker 1: specific show because so many things I get to I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. On this viewing, I think it's fascinating

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Speaker 1: and there's so much to talk about about how women

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Speaker 1: and intergenerational trauma is shown in this story. And I

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Speaker 1: still feel like it's weirdly a little left something to

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Speaker 1: be desired and felt like a little trophy on the

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Speaker 1: on the witch side for me. But the family side

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Speaker 1: was like, I mean, I feel like that's what ari

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Speaker 1: Astor does best, is like terrifying family horror dynamics. When

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Speaker 1: it gets into the witchy stuff, it kind of loses

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Speaker 1: me a little more. But I'm willing to be swung.

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Speaker 1: I'm swayable here, Okay, But yeah, I like this movie.

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Speaker 1: I just but every time I watch it, I feel differently.

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Speaker 3: Well, I'm excited to dig in. No, I'm not I

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Speaker 3: want to go watch Paddington instead.

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Speaker 1: Well, fun fact listeners, Caitlin and I are going to

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Speaker 1: see a twelve one am screening of Despicable be four.

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Speaker 1: That's right today, So any any dread or sadness is

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Speaker 1: about to be wiped clean. Your brain will never be

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Speaker 1: smoother than at two oh one am.

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Speaker 3: The best palette cleanser. Imaginable, little guys, but no, I

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Speaker 3: think this will be a very interesting discussion.

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Speaker 1: I'm excited.

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Speaker 4: I do have a quick anecdote about the first time

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Speaker 4: that I saw in theaters.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 4: So there is like this very good like it's not

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Speaker 4: really a jump scare, but like a slow scare of

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Speaker 4: like something in the background that slowly comes into focus

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Speaker 4: towards the end of the movie.

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Speaker 3: Yes, Tony Kollet hovering around the ceiling.

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Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah that. And when I saw it in

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Speaker 4: the theaters, around that scene, there is a fly buzzing

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Speaker 4: through the house and in the like surround sound of

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Speaker 4: the theater, I literally thought there was a fly in

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Speaker 4: the theater. So I was looking around being like, where

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Speaker 4: is this fly? And I missed the first time I

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Speaker 4: watched it, I missed the initial jump scare, and then

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Speaker 4: everybody in the theater started gasping, and then I looked

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Speaker 4: and I was like, what happened? And I was so

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Speaker 4: mad about that. But I saw it later.

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Speaker 1: But this is why I want to see it in theaters,

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Speaker 1: because it's like, you can enjoy this movie and you

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Speaker 1: can be terrified this movie at home on your humble roku.

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Speaker 1: But I feel like you do. And I feel like

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Speaker 1: that that's true of all of his or all two

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Speaker 1: of his movies I've seen. It's like the sound design

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Speaker 1: is very much a part of it.

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Speaker 4: The soundtrack as well. Colin Stepson really committed to that.

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Speaker 1: Unreal It's so good. Oh, this is like Mammy Trauma

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Speaker 1: the movie, and I like it.

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Speaker 3: Mama Trauma. Let's take a quick break and then we'll

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Speaker 3: come back for the recap and we're back spooky times.

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Speaker 1: Thank you Kman.

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Speaker 3: Okay, here's the recap. I will place a content warning

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Speaker 3: here for every suicide, for mental illness discussions. There are cults,

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Speaker 3: there's all kinds of scary things. There's lots of graphic violence. Yeah, truly,

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Speaker 3: everything that might upset anyone.

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Speaker 1: That is one of the things that this movie also

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Speaker 1: does that I kind of forgot about because it had

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Speaker 1: been at least three years since I've seen it. That

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Speaker 1: always bothers me about Midsommar, a movie I generally really

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Speaker 1: really like. But just like ari Astor loves to prescribe

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Speaker 1: a specific mental illness to something that he doesn't know

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Speaker 1: what he's talking about. He's done it at least twice.

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Speaker 1: I yeah, sound off if he also does it in

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Speaker 1: bo Is Afraid, but he does it with dissociative identity disorder.

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Speaker 1: In this movie. He does it with bipolar disorder in

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Speaker 1: the first couple of minutes of Midsommer, and I just

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Speaker 1: wish he would stop stop that, because that's like a

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Speaker 1: horror trope that is very subvertible that he has not done.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, well, I mean, I think there's a

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Speaker 3: much larger discussion to be had around mental illness as

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Speaker 3: it's depicted in this movie, and how it conflates meant

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Speaker 3: illness with evil oil. But we'll get there.

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Speaker 4: Sorr.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, okay. So in this recap, also, I left out

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Speaker 3: some stuff just because there's so much detail in this

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Speaker 3: movie that I had to kind of leave some stuff out. Also,

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Speaker 3: I realized when I was reading a piece about this

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Speaker 3: movie that's like summarizing the plot, I'm like, Oh, there's

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Speaker 3: a whole thing that I didn't even understand or that

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Speaker 3: didn't connect for me, So this recap might be kind

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Speaker 3: of shitty.

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Speaker 1: Well, Pulam, You're welcome to jump in whenever too.

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Speaker 3: Yes. So we open on text on the screen, which

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Speaker 3: is an obituary of Eileen Lee saying that she is

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Speaker 3: survived by her daughter Annie, her son in law, and

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Speaker 3: their two kids. We meet this family at their home.

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Speaker 3: Annie is played by Tony Kolett, her husband Steve is

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Speaker 3: gabriel Byrne. Their seventeen year old son Peter played by

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Speaker 3: Alex Wolfe.

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Speaker 1: Aka one half of The Naked Brother's Band Pluma. Did

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Speaker 1: you watch that show when we were kids? No?

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Speaker 4: I did not.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, there was a Nickelodeon tween show called

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Speaker 1: The Naked Brothers Band starring Alex Wolf and his brother

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Speaker 1: Nat and my brother and I were so invested in

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Speaker 1: the Naked Brother's Band. Very weird that they called it that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but it was about like two young brothers and like

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Speaker 1: Alex Wolf is literally I think like eight or nine

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Speaker 1: in the series, and he's like, I want to play

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Speaker 1: the drums. And so that was the only thing i'd

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Speaker 1: ever seen him in, and then he was in Hereditary.

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Speaker 1: So he's got range, which.

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Speaker 3: I know him as kid from Jumanji, the newer Jumanji movies.

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Speaker 1: Oh see, I kind of forgot about that. Yeah, so yeah,

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Speaker 1: he's he's got range. She's in all kind I hear though,

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Speaker 1: based on what Tony Kollett said about working with him,

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Speaker 1: if I'm recalling correctly, he's an asshole. Oh no, what

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Speaker 1: can you do? Damn? What can you do?

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Speaker 3: So that's Peter played by Alex Wolf, and then their

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Speaker 3: thirteen year old daughter, Charlie played by Millie Shapiro. They

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Speaker 3: are getting ready to head to Annie's mother's funeral. We

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Speaker 3: cut to the funeral where Annie gives a eulogy about

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Speaker 3: her mother, how Eileen was a very private, secretive person,

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Speaker 3: and the vibes are weird. At the funeral, there's a

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Speaker 3: lot of people who Annie doesn't recognize and a strange

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Speaker 3: symbol on a necklace that Eileen is wearing. And it's

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Speaker 3: also here where it's established that Charlie has a nut allergy.

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Speaker 4: There's also a lot of adults smiling weirdly at Charlie.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, there are I love this movie is like

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Speaker 1: so I liked it this time, Like this movie is

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Speaker 1: so paranoi at every level, and the fact that everyone's

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Speaker 1: paranoia or like all of the characters who's were invested

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Speaker 1: in really like they're paranoia and everyone's worst fear is

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Speaker 1: true and then some and it almost feels, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: it felt cathartic on this watch to be like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: the most fucked up thing I could imagine is going

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Speaker 1: to happen tomorrow. It's true for everyone.

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Speaker 4: It tells you exactly what it is going to be

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Speaker 4: the entire time, but then does something a little bit

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Speaker 4: different than what you think it's going to do at

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Speaker 4: each turn, right.

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Speaker 3: It does subvert a lot of horror movie troupes. Like

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Speaker 3: there's a dog in the movie, Rex the dog icon who.

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Speaker 1: He makes it?

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Speaker 3: Survives?

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Speaker 4: No he doesn't?

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Speaker 1: Does not? Wait what happened to the dog?

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Speaker 4: No? Is it?

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Speaker 1: Viewing number six where you figure out that Rex.

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Speaker 4: Didn't make it at the very end, And I was

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Speaker 4: laughing about this when I was watching it last night.

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Speaker 4: They just like show Rex's body like in like the

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Speaker 4: last scene, like very in passing being like just so

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Speaker 4: you know, we killed the dog too.

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Speaker 1: I kind of do think that, like you're I don't know,

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Speaker 1: arist he's kind of a real one for that, he's

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Speaker 1: a fake dog, so I know that whatever. I think

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Speaker 1: that's kind of funny. I thought that, Yeah, like this

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Speaker 1: the thing that feels like on the rewatch, you're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: like all of the normal fake outs of like is

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Speaker 1: this the creepy person but it's never the creepy person

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Speaker 1: in the first scene, but in this movie, it is

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Speaker 1: the creepy person in the first scene. They're also the

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Speaker 1: creepy person in the last.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's all many creepy people.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, in general.

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Speaker 3: Oh, poor Rex the Dog. I well, I'm glad I

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Speaker 3: missed it. I did not see the demise of Rex

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Speaker 3: the Dog.

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Speaker 4: And there's a lot of other things going on.

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Speaker 1: There. Yes, yeah, Gabriel Burn is fully engulfed in flames

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Speaker 1: at one point. That's the Those are the moment we're

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Speaker 1: going to discuss shortly, and that are the two moments

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Speaker 1: where I still gasp even when I know it's coming.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Oh okay, So the funeral is weird, and then the

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Speaker 3: family returns home. We learn that Annie is an artist

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Speaker 3: who creates miniatures, mostly depicting scenes from her life, her

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Speaker 3: past and present. That night, Annie tucks Charlie in. They

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Speaker 3: talk about Charlie's relationship with her grandmother, how Charlie was

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Speaker 3: her grandmother's favorite, though she wanted Charlie to be a boy,

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Speaker 3: and this is the beginning of a conversation revolving around

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Speaker 3: gender and payman, so we'll examine that later. Finally, finally, finally,

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Speaker 3: then Annie goes through some of her mother's things, like

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Speaker 3: a book called Notes on Spiritualism, and there's a cryptic

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Speaker 3: note inside to Annie from her mother about sacrifice and reward,

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Speaker 3: and we're like, what's this about. Then Annie thinks she

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Speaker 3: sees her mother's ghost. Then we see this miniature that

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Speaker 3: Annie made depicting her mother trying to breastfeed baby Charlie,

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Speaker 3: something that Annie had referenced a few moments before, but

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Speaker 3: we didn't really know to what extent. And then we

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Speaker 3: see this dirama.

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Speaker 1: Basically Anne, I wrote this, Dad that like, if Annie

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Speaker 1: were a real life artist, I would for sure have

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Speaker 1: written an annoying paper about her in college, like I

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Speaker 1: would have been like it would have been some sort

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Speaker 1: of interesting gateway like miniatures as women experience. Anyone ever

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Speaker 1: think of this one before? And but I love, I

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Speaker 1: mean that's like a recurring theme in ari Astro's work too,

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Speaker 1: is like miniatures inside of miniatures. And I also love

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Speaker 1: Tony Kollett's like little I don't know, scary magne.

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Speaker 3: Like glasses, magnifying glasses.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, her like steampunk I thing I don't know.

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Speaker 3: Okay. So then some more freaky stuff happens at school.

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Speaker 3: Charlie cuts the head off of a dead bird. She

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Speaker 3: will later make a doll type thing with it. Charlie

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Speaker 3: takes after her mother as far as like being creative

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Speaker 3: and artistic expression. Charlie has a whole collection of her

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Speaker 3: mostly disturbing creations in her room. Also, there are creepy

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Speaker 3: people lurking around at school and in the woods near

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Speaker 3: their house. Strange symbols and words are popping up on

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Speaker 3: the floors and walls of the house. The grandmother's grave

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Speaker 3: apparently was desecrated. There's also this like light shimmer thing

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Speaker 3: that we'll see now and then that kind of moves

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Speaker 3: about autonomously. We don't really know what it is at first.

431
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,919
Speaker 3: Is it Payman? I don't know. Then Annie goes to

432
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:11,119
Speaker 3: a grief support group. We learn that Annie had a

433
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:16,160
Speaker 3: very strained relationship with her mother, and that Annie's mother, father,

434
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 3: and brother all had pretty severe mental illnesses. Peter then

435
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 3: gets invited to a party and Annie makes him take

436
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:31,800
Speaker 3: Charlie along. It seems like Charlie might have difficulty socializing

437
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:34,679
Speaker 3: with other kids, so Annie is like insistent that she

438
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 3: go and socialize.

439
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:40,680
Speaker 1: Right, She's thirteen, so like, show me a socially functional

440
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 1: thirteen year old.

441
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 4: This is also after she's been like caught just like

442
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 4: following a light barefoot in the yard and Annie needs

443
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,679
Speaker 4: to do this like project for this gallery and she's like,

444
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,120
Speaker 4: oh my god, why are you outside barefoot? I can't

445
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 4: deal with this right now?

446
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, like, someone take charge of her. Although every time

447
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:05,440
Speaker 1: with Annie in this seed, I'm like, come on, mom,

448
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:10,120
Speaker 1: where she's she's like, okay, my seventeen year old stoner

449
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:15,440
Speaker 1: son definitely don't smoke weed. And You're like, I mean,

450
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:19,200
Speaker 1: I know it happens, but I'm like, come on, come on,

451
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:23,960
Speaker 1: I mean you know the consequence is outsized, but yeah,

452
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:26,360
Speaker 1: what you know, right, I don't know how she expected

453
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 1: a neutral result.

454
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 3: Right, Okay. So at the party, Charlie eats cake that

455
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 3: turns out to have nuts, and she has a severe

456
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 3: allergic reaction. So Peter rushes her out. He's speeding to

457
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 3: a hospital, and then we get the scene where Charlie

458
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 3: can't breathe, so she rolls down the window and sticks

459
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,639
Speaker 3: her head out of the window. There's something in the

460
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 3: road at that very moment, so Peter swerves to miss it,

461
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 3: causing Charlie to be decapitated by a telephone poll.

462
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 1: And then this is the point where everyone in the

463
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 1: movie is like, oh, oh, so it's that kind of movie.

464
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, the rules have changed, the shift has happened.

465
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:17,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, because these are fake people, I feel

466
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,440
Speaker 1: comfortable saying that's fucking awesome, Like you just don't see

467
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:25,120
Speaker 1: it coming, and it's just like it's so no matter

468
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:27,400
Speaker 1: how many times you see it, it's shocking the way

469
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,680
Speaker 1: that it's done. I like, I don't know, because I

470
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 1: didn't I've of the three times i've seen it, I

471
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,120
Speaker 1: only actually watched that the first time because I didn't

472
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 1: know it was coming. Now I know to look away,

473
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,200
Speaker 1: But my memory of it is that it's very it's

474
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:46,240
Speaker 1: like almost campy practical effectie, which is probably the smarter decision,

475
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:48,920
Speaker 1: But I honestly don't know, because when I watched it yesterday,

476
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:50,720
Speaker 1: I was like ah No.

477
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,960
Speaker 3: It's not that camp. I mean maybe, but it also

478
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:59,360
Speaker 3: gets such a visceral, horrific response that it feels.

479
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:03,160
Speaker 1: Well as a horror head. Is it goofy or is it?

480
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 4: I feel like, so this is not the thing that

481
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 4: I also feel like what scares people is really subjective,

482
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,719
Speaker 4: So what scares me is not like what scares all

483
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,680
Speaker 4: horror people. But this did not scare me. This wasn't

484
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 4: the I was like, oh, but I feel like it

485
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 4: was effective because and I've thought about this a lot.

486
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:25,359
Speaker 4: Why people get shocked, it's because I think you have

487
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:29,920
Speaker 4: so much anxiety from the like allergic reaction, anaphylactic shock,

488
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 4: whatever's happening with the nuts, and you're worried that that

489
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,120
Speaker 4: is going to kill her, and you're really really focused

490
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,120
Speaker 4: on is she going to make it to the hospital.

491
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 4: The music is also going off, and so this thing

492
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 4: is now like a second not forecasted, well forecasted if

493
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 4: you have seen it, but not otherwise forecasted thing that

494
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 4: just like happens really suddenly. And I think the scariest

495
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 4: part is because you don't see it. You just see

496
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 4: his reaction and you feel like the weight of it,

497
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 4: and then you get to hear and see everyone's reactions.

498
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 4: And then the jump scare is when they show you

499
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 4: the rotting head on the street.

500
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 1: Yes, that does happen too, which is which is somehow

501
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 1: like I don't know why that was like less. I

502
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 1: don't know. Maybe it's because I saw this movie after

503
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 1: I'd already seen Midsommar and it's just like, yeah, he's

504
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,959
Speaker 1: gonna do this. He loves fly on head. And they

505
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 1: keep returning to that image too, of like the symbolism

506
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 1: of like a rotting person.

507
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 4: Well also the answer like a paymon thing.

508
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 3: Like there's so much I don't so many references. I

509
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 3: don't get. You do see her head come off, though,

510
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 3: unless I watched like a director's cut or something, you

511
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 3: see like her her head hit the pole and come off.

512
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 4: I thought it was like a silhouette.

513
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 3: I mean, it's enough that you like, definitely see what happens.

514
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 1: Sure I haven't. I haven't voluntarily watched it in five years,

515
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 1: so I cannot speak. I just but I know whatever

516
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 1: I saw the first time was enough that I was like, look,

517
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 1: I can't, I'm not gonna do it. But that's part

518
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 1: of why I like watching card movies is the parts

519
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 1: that are impossible to watch right right.

520
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 3: The point is though, that Peter is in utter shock

521
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 3: after this, and he just kind of drives home and

522
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 3: goes to bed, hoping that it didn't actually happen. But

523
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:28,719
Speaker 3: the next morning Annie discovers Charlie's body in the car.

524
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 1: That's the most horrific moment of the movie to me

525
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 1: is watching that long shot of Peter in bed and

526
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 1: just like seeing him internally count down the moments until

527
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 1: his life is over. Basically, yes, it's just so horrible.

528
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 3: It's so horrible. And then you see the shot of

529
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 3: Charlie's severed head. There's ants crawling all over it. It's

530
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 3: truly like one of the most haunting images I've ever

531
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 3: seen in a movie.

532
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 1: I hope Millie Shapiro, if she wanted it.

533
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 3: Got that head about the prop head.

534
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 1: If I was her, if I was like a child

535
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 1: actor in a horror movie, I'd be like, give me

536
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 1: the head. I want the head.

537
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 4: Also, like that guttural scream is like something that Ari

538
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 4: Astor used again in Midsommar, and it is like so

539
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:22,960
Speaker 4: effective because it touches like the deepest, like animal part

540
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 4: of you that like feels aversion to like the warning

541
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 4: scream of another human.

542
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. I mean that without Tony Kollett's like ability, Like,

543
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 1: this movie is way less effective if anyone's half assing

544
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 1: that role because it's like she in like however, many

545
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 1: scenes she's like making sounds and expressions that like almost

546
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 1: feel inhuman but also but really human or maybe superhuman

547
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 1: whatever it is, like, it's just it's it's terrifying.

548
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 3: Like again, give her an Oscar such an incredible performance.

549
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 1: She's awesome, and this was an even I mean I

550
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 1: thought of I guess, like you know, Tony Kleett was

551
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 1: such a successful character actor at this time, I think

552
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 1: you would rarely see her outside of TV in like

553
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 1: leading roles. But I think I first saw her in

554
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 1: The Sixth Sense, where she was also playing a horror

555
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 1: movie mom, but very different.

556
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 3: But yeah, she does a great job communicating the just

557
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 3: grief and devastation that she and her whole family are feeling.

558
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 3: She is your mother, She is your mother. Everyone is devastated.

559
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 3: Peter is very guilt stricken. An he goes back to

560
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 3: the support group where she meets a woman named Joan

561
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 3: played by Anne Dowd, whose son and grandson died recently.

562
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 3: She gives Annie her number in case Annie needs someone

563
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 3: to talk to. Annie and Joan then get together and

564
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 3: Annie tells her a story about an instance that happened

565
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 3: a few years back where while Annie was sleepwalking, she

566
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 3: apparently doused herself and Peter and Charlie in paint thinner

567
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 3: and was about to light them on fire while she

568
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 3: was sleeping, but woke up when she struck the match.

569
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 1: I do love how this information is introduced, because it's like,

570
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 1: there's so many critical, horrific pieces of information introduced mid

571
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 1: Tony Collette Ramble, and then she just always keeps going

572
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 1: and you're like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, what what

573
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 1: did you say? What did you do? It's great, it's great,

574
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 1: but to her, it's like, so this.

575
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:45,480
Speaker 3: Happened, and she's describing how she was just as shocked

576
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 3: as her kids were, but Peter has held it against

577
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 3: her ever since.

578
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 4: I feel like this movie does a great, like, I

579
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 4: don't know, representation of how like we have our own

580
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:57,719
Speaker 4: family histories and our personal histories that we think are

581
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 4: totally normal and downplay, and it's not until you tell

582
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 4: it to another person that you realize that it's kind

583
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,719
Speaker 4: of messed up. And this happens repeatedly that she does,

584
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 4: and the other person is like the viewer who's like,

585
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:14,440
Speaker 4: hang on, but you never get to hang on because

586
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 4: they just keep they roll past it.

587
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 3: They just keep barreling.

588
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:21,440
Speaker 1: That's true part of what I am really like drawn

589
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:24,360
Speaker 1: to about Annie's character. She's like the most extreme example

590
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 1: of that. And you can see so much in her

591
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:30,760
Speaker 1: own art that she is trying to process these things.

592
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:35,400
Speaker 1: But it's not clear if she feels it feels like,

593
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:37,360
Speaker 1: at least to be at different. At most points, it

594
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,920
Speaker 1: feels like she is kind of in denial that her

595
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 1: art is a way of processing her life. She's just

596
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 1: sort of like, this is my work and this is

597
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:49,120
Speaker 1: my life, when they're so clearly interconnected, but she's using

598
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 1: her I don't know. I'm really excited to talk about

599
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 1: like women in art as a way of like synthesizing

600
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,359
Speaker 1: your life, because I just I don't know. I think

601
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,320
Speaker 1: this movie does it in a really interesting way because

602
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 1: in most ways, when Annie's talking about her art, whether

603
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 1: it's to her husband, who's really the only person we

604
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 1: see her talk to about it, she is sort of like, well,

605
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 1: what do you mean this is my work? Like this

606
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 1: is a this is a neutral presentation and just like

607
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 1: the most fucked up thing you've ever seen, and you're like, Annie, Annie, Annie,

608
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:21,759
Speaker 1: this is right.

609
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 3: This happens. This happens next in the story where Annie

610
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:31,320
Speaker 3: is making a miniature of Charlie's accident with the head

611
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,719
Speaker 3: on the ground and everything, and her husband Steve comes in.

612
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 3: He's like what the fuck Annie? And she's like what

613
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:41,360
Speaker 3: this isn't He's like, don't let Peter see that, and

614
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 3: she's like, what this isn't about him? This is a

615
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 3: neutral presentation of the accident, and it's like, rip Steve.

616
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:51,920
Speaker 4: She hates therapy, and it shows.

617
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 1: Steve is processing grief honestly, like you know, rip to Steve.

618
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 1: He did his best. He did his best. He was like,

619
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 1: consider our son, and Annie was like, no, no.

620
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 4: My husband and I were talking about at what point

621
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,800
Speaker 4: would we have left each other in the situation. Uh huh,

622
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:16,279
Speaker 4: We'll get to it. But there's an outburst that I

623
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 4: think I would have been like, we're going to my

624
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 4: mom's and you need to go work that one out.

625
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:25,720
Speaker 1: M yeah, yeah, like he would have been the tricky

626
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 1: thing is like their kid. But it's like, if I'm Steve.

627
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:31,240
Speaker 1: I also thought that this is like, if I'm Steve,

628
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 1: I'm like, you know, Peter and I. It's tricky though,

629
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 1: because then you're leaving Annie by herself and t'sau without

630
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 1: a support system. But it's like, you gotta It seems

631
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:42,959
Speaker 1: like Steve is trying to do the right thing, which

632
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 1: just think about his kid, but he's kind of thwarted

633
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:49,919
Speaker 1: at every turn when it comes to trying to act

634
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:51,919
Speaker 1: in the best interests of his kid. Not to say

635
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 1: that he couldn't have done better, but he was doing

636
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 1: his best if it was just the two of them.

637
00:36:56,680 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 1: If I'm Steve, I'm like, I'm going to Disneyland, Like

638
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 1: I don't know, I'm going, I'm going somewhere.

639
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 4: I feel like the turning point really was I think

640
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 4: that she was becoming harmful to the kid's healing process,

641
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:14,239
Speaker 4: and you know, like I feel like it would be

642
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:16,319
Speaker 4: like for the sake of the kid that I would

643
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:18,240
Speaker 4: want to get out of that situation.

644
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:21,439
Speaker 3: The scene which we're coming up on soon. But when

645
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 3: she like forces them to participate in a seance with her,

646
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 3: and Peter's like very visibly upset, It's like, Okay, we

647
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 3: need to maybe not be doing this.

648
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:35,759
Speaker 4: Tony Kolett that was my husband's point.

649
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:41,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean because Steve really does try to, like,

650
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:43,759
Speaker 5: you know, he goes with her as far as he

651
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 5: could go before drawing the line, and by that point it's.

652
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 1: Unfortunately too late. But I don't know, yeah, I you know,

653
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 1: like we're not parents. I can't say for sure, but

654
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 1: it just seems like Steve was trying to do his best.

655
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 1: And there's an interesting like choice in and maybe it's

656
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:04,920
Speaker 1: just like logistical our writing choice from ari Astor where

657
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,239
Speaker 1: Steve is like kind of a flat character in a

658
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 1: lot of ways, where we're not led to believe that

659
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:14,759
Speaker 1: Steve has a support system to turn to. It's just

660
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:19,120
Speaker 1: everything is taking place inside of this miniature, and everything

661
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:22,440
Speaker 1: outside of the miniature is a little bit nebulous and

662
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:24,919
Speaker 1: confusing because we're not led to believe that Steve has

663
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 1: family members or friends that he could really go to

664
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:31,360
Speaker 1: or that he feels comfortable going to about this, and

665
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:35,400
Speaker 1: so he's also kind of a prisoner in this dynamic,

666
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:39,320
Speaker 1: which is a real thing, just thankfully not pam on real.

667
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:43,360
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, isolation is really important for this.

668
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 1: Yeah.

669
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:50,400
Speaker 3: So the next thing is a dinner scene where Peter

670
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 3: and Annie yell at each other and blame each other

671
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 3: for the accident, and no one accepts any kind of

672
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:02,359
Speaker 3: accountability for any thing. This is something that Annie is

673
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:06,440
Speaker 3: kind of lashing out about, and so things are very

674
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:09,040
Speaker 3: very tense among the family.

675
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:11,759
Speaker 1: Tony Collette is so good in that scene.

676
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 4: And it's amazing, I'm your mother.

677
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:15,760
Speaker 1: It's a meme for a reason.

678
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 3: Then Annie runs into Joan again, who had recently met

679
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 3: a spiritual medium who does seances, and the medium conjured

680
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,759
Speaker 3: the spirit of Joan's grandson, and so Joan is trying

681
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 3: to convince Annie to come over, and she does, and

682
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:40,360
Speaker 3: Joan performs a seance and summons her grandson again. Annie

683
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:44,920
Speaker 3: gets freaked out and leaves. Then we see a scene

684
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 3: where Annie has some scary dreams. She has sleepwalked into

685
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:53,879
Speaker 3: Peter's room again. She lets it slip that she never

686
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:57,400
Speaker 3: wanted to be his mother, that her mother pressured her

687
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 3: into having kids. Annie tried to have a misc It

688
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:03,440
Speaker 3: turns out that Annie telling Peter all of this was

689
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:05,960
Speaker 3: also just a dream, but it's not clear if that

690
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:10,840
Speaker 3: is actually something that happened or not because it's framed

691
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,240
Speaker 3: as a dream, so we don't totally know, but based

692
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 3: on the events of the story, we can maybe glean

693
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 3: that that was true for Annie. Not sure, but anyway.

694
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:25,480
Speaker 3: Then Annie gets Steve and Peter together and performs a seance.

695
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 3: They are skeptical and upset. Peter is very scared, and

696
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:36,359
Speaker 3: it seems like Annie summons Charlie's spirit using something that

697
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:39,320
Speaker 3: belonged to Charlie, which is a notebook that she used

698
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 3: to sketch in and this summoning of the spirit seems

699
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 3: to work, but then things go wrong where Charlie kind

700
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:52,000
Speaker 3: of embodies Annie and it's weird and scary.

701
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 4: My favorite line from the movie is when Peter in

702
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 4: that scene is going can't you feel it the air flexing?

703
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:03,400
Speaker 1: And I was like, ooh, it is like the most

704
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:07,239
Speaker 1: like accurate but also like teenage boy way of describing

705
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 1: what is happening. M h.

706
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:15,800
Speaker 3: And then things really start to fall apart for the family.

707
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:22,720
Speaker 3: From this point on, Annie discovers that notebook of Charlie's,

708
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 3: where her spirit seems to be drawing a bunch of

709
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 3: pictures of Peter with his eyes crossed out. Not a

710
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 3: great omen. Annie thinks she might be able to stop

711
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 3: all of this if she burns the notebook, but when

712
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:39,879
Speaker 3: she tries to throw it in the fire. Her arm

713
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:44,240
Speaker 3: catches fire, as if she and the notebook share some link.

714
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 3: Then Annie goes through her mother's stuff again and finds

715
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 3: photos of her mother with Joan. Turns out that Joan

716
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 3: knew Eileen all along. There are photos depicting them participating

717
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 3: in some kind of ritual. There are strange symbols. There

718
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 3: are books on the occult, and Annie reads a passage

719
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:11,600
Speaker 3: about someone named King Payman, one of the eight Kings

720
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 3: of Hell, and he needs a vulnerable host to inhabit

721
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 3: or possess, specifically a male host, and we're like, hmm, Peter,

722
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:30,879
Speaker 3: question mark. Then Annie goes up to the attic, where

723
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:35,000
Speaker 3: she finds the rotten corpse of possibly her dead mother,

724
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 3: although the head has been removed so we can't really

725
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 3: id her at this time now. Meanwhile, at school, Peter,

726
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:49,320
Speaker 3: as if possessed by some sinister spirit, bashes his own

727
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 3: face against his desk.

728
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:55,000
Speaker 1: This is another case of classic ari astor what's the

729
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:57,959
Speaker 1: most fucked up thing I could think to do right now?

730
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:01,360
Speaker 4: This is also right after he sees his own reflection

731
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 4: in like a cabinet, and the reflection is smiling at him.

732
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:08,000
Speaker 4: That really scared me, I feel scared thinking about it now.

733
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:10,680
Speaker 3: I feel like that was used for the trailer when

734
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 3: they were promoting this movie. Yeah, I kind of remember that.

735
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:14,520
Speaker 1: Oh.

736
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 3: Anyway, Steve brings home an unconscious Peter, and then Annie

737
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:22,520
Speaker 3: runs up and is trying to explain how she thinks

738
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:27,440
Speaker 3: that burning Charlie's notebook will sever whatever sinister connection has

739
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 3: been created. She begs Steve to burn the book, knowing

740
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 3: that she will combust and burn because of this link.

741
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 3: He won't do it. He wants to call the police.

742
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:43,799
Speaker 3: He thinks that Annie is having a mental break, so

743
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 3: she throws the book in the fire again, thinking it's

744
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:52,280
Speaker 3: going to make her burst into flames. But surprise, it's Steve,

745
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:56,480
Speaker 3: her husband, who combusts and dies instead.

746
00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:00,759
Speaker 1: I did not see this coming, Oh, and never see

747
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:06,800
Speaker 1: it coming, no matter how many times. And you're just like, yeah, Steve, Steve,

748
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 1: you should have gone to Disneyland. Steve, you should have

749
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:14,520
Speaker 1: taken Alex Wolf to Disneyland, and then you know we

750
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:17,800
Speaker 1: would have been.

751
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 4: But he loved her. You know, it's broke my heart.

752
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:22,760
Speaker 4: This is a love story.

753
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:28,320
Speaker 1: Actually, yeah, no, absolutely where it's it makes me sad.

754
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:33,680
Speaker 1: It makes me sad. Yeah, that like he was trying

755
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 1: to do right by his family by Annie because also

756
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:39,799
Speaker 1: it seems like, I mean, just based on what we

757
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:43,360
Speaker 1: know about this family, that he has had to stand

758
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:46,799
Speaker 1: by her through. Really, I mean, we know that her

759
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:51,439
Speaker 1: kids had a weird to bad relationship with her due

760
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:54,520
Speaker 1: to the whole almost lighting them all on fire thing,

761
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 1: And it seems like he has been put in the

762
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:03,840
Speaker 1: position repeatedly of having to be the like calm, most

763
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:07,840
Speaker 1: calming presence in the room. But it's like dipped so

764
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:11,840
Speaker 1: far that he is, you know, I don't think intentionally,

765
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:15,840
Speaker 1: but like his need to appease everybody and be present

766
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:21,400
Speaker 1: for everybody is ultimately like what brings his downfall and

767
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:25,719
Speaker 1: the downfall of like other people, because it's like he's

768
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 1: never quite decisive. He almost emails a therapist saying she's

769
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 1: a girl. He almost does a lot of things, but

770
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:37,400
Speaker 1: because of his love for his wife and his fear

771
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 1: of hurting her, like, he never quite takes the step

772
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:44,600
Speaker 1: he needs to protect his kids. I don't know, it's

773
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 1: so fucked. I don't know what I would do if

774
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 1: I if I'm Steve, I'll be honest.

775
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 4: I am.

776
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 3: Hard to say when your family is being possessed by

777
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:58,520
Speaker 3: one of the eight Kings of Hell. You just don't

778
00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:01,239
Speaker 3: know how to handle such a Wait, you won't know

779
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:03,320
Speaker 3: until you're there, right.

780
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And and this will happen to all three

781
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:08,440
Speaker 1: of us at some point. This is a part of

782
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:10,720
Speaker 1: the human experience that goes without saying.

783
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:13,520
Speaker 4: I'm alone in my house and all the lights are off.

784
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:18,239
Speaker 4: I might actually stand up to go turn some lights.

785
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:22,040
Speaker 4: And I'm gonna go turn the hallway light on really fast.

786
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 1: This is beautiful.

787
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 4: I I'm back.

788
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:32,840
Speaker 3: Okay, lights are on. We feel safe. So we've just

789
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 3: seen Steve burst into flames and burn to death. Annie

790
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:39,799
Speaker 3: is shocked by this for a brief moment, but then

791
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:44,520
Speaker 3: seems to kind of disassociate. Then we cut to Peter

792
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:47,759
Speaker 3: waking up in his bed. He goes downstairs and discovers

793
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 3: his charred father. He sees a creepy naked man lurking

794
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:56,799
Speaker 3: in a doorway. This is where we see Tony Klet.

795
00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:57,120
Speaker 1: You know.

796
00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:01,440
Speaker 3: Annie perched up by the ceiling as if she flew

797
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:04,840
Speaker 3: or floated up there. Then she lunges at Peter and

798
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:08,319
Speaker 3: chases after him. He locks himself in the attic, but

799
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:11,719
Speaker 3: then Annie is in the attic with him, sawing her

800
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 3: own head off with piano wire. So that's interesting.

801
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:16,920
Speaker 4: So sick.

802
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:22,720
Speaker 3: Peter jumps out the window, but then that light shimmer

803
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:27,000
Speaker 3: thing that we saw before seems to enter him and

804
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:30,480
Speaker 3: compels him to go up to the treehouse that I

805
00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:34,520
Speaker 3: forgot to mention until now, But we have established this

806
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 3: treehouse earlier. We got a Chekhof's treehouse, and now it's

807
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 3: paying off because he goes up there and what's in

808
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:45,360
Speaker 3: the treehouse, Well, it's a bunch of stuff. It's members

809
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 3: of a cult that worship King Payman. It's Charlie's head

810
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:56,600
Speaker 3: on a statue of King Payman. It's the decapitated bodies

811
00:47:56,680 --> 00:48:05,359
Speaker 3: of Peter's mom and Grandma Joe is there and she's saying, hey, Charlie,

812
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:09,840
Speaker 3: we've I'm quoting the dialogue here, we've corrected your first

813
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:15,520
Speaker 3: female body and we gave you this healthy male host.

814
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:18,400
Speaker 3: And then she goes on to say, you are payment.

815
00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:22,000
Speaker 3: We bind ourselves to you. Give us your knowledge and

816
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:27,399
Speaker 3: your wisdom and your riches. Hail payment the end.

817
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:30,359
Speaker 1: So yeah, cute Joni Mitchell's song, and.

818
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:34,080
Speaker 3: We're like, oh, wild song to end on the part

819
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 3: that I didn't fully get was that that Charlie was

820
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:43,920
Speaker 3: Payman the whole time, and that her decapitation was this

821
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:47,960
Speaker 3: kind of planned out thing from the cult, Like the

822
00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:51,880
Speaker 3: accident wasn't actually an accident. They the cult like made

823
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:57,360
Speaker 3: this happen so that Payman could be transferred from Charlie's

824
00:48:57,360 --> 00:49:02,239
Speaker 3: body into Peter's body. And so that's the part that

825
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:05,520
Speaker 3: I didn't quite get that, like the accident was not

826
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:08,399
Speaker 3: actually an accident. I don't know if that was more

827
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:09,520
Speaker 3: clear to other people.

828
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:13,280
Speaker 4: But now, if you, I mean later on subsequent watches,

829
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:17,080
Speaker 4: you notice the symbol of the cult is on, Like

830
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:20,800
Speaker 4: on the way to the party, they pass a telephone

831
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:23,200
Speaker 4: pole and the symbol from the cult is on, like

832
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:27,240
Speaker 4: embossed in the telephone pole. Yeah, but on my first

833
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:31,040
Speaker 4: watch or even second, I didn't notice that necessarily. So

834
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:34,120
Speaker 4: it's pretty like I feel like the world building elements

835
00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:39,840
Speaker 4: are given really minimally, and all of the stuff with

836
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:43,719
Speaker 4: the cult is happening really backgrounded, and the focus is

837
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:46,080
Speaker 4: really on the family. And maybe this is why you

838
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:49,680
Speaker 4: felt that the the cult stuff was maybe or like

839
00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:52,480
Speaker 4: the witchy stuff was maybe less developed, because it seems

840
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:55,080
Speaker 4: to be kind of besides the point and really being

841
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:59,960
Speaker 4: used as an as an engine to heighten this family struggle.

842
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:03,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's a pretty fair assessment.

843
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:07,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, well, now that we'll let's take a book, Brazer,

844
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:10,280
Speaker 1: let's take a break and come back and get into.

845
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:21,280
Speaker 3: It, and we're back. Where to begin.

846
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:26,000
Speaker 1: I kind of want to start with the witchier stuff

847
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:28,719
Speaker 1: in here, because yeah, I agree plumbit that it's like,

848
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:33,759
Speaker 1: it feels like the supernatural elements of this are secondary

849
00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:37,920
Speaker 1: and almost like used to amplify the family dynamics that

850
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:42,359
Speaker 1: are at the core of this. It's weird that this

851
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:46,880
Speaker 1: movie came out in twenty eighteen and because of like

852
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:51,080
Speaker 1: the cultural moment of early twenty eighteen. This is right

853
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:54,759
Speaker 1: after the Me Too movement begins, and so there's a

854
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:56,799
Speaker 1: lot of takes on this movie that feel a little

855
00:50:56,960 --> 00:50:59,640
Speaker 1: dated in that sense, not to say that it is

856
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:03,279
Speaker 1: like inaccurate, but that I don't know, like, it was

857
00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:06,960
Speaker 1: interesting going through the initial wave of reception, some of

858
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:08,799
Speaker 1: which I think was really insightful and some of which

859
00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:11,160
Speaker 1: I feel like was like a little bad faith in

860
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:15,200
Speaker 1: how the material was received, because I think at that

861
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:18,560
Speaker 1: point it's like, oh, so we're saying all women are witches,

862
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:21,839
Speaker 1: and you're like, well, why is that a bad thing. Yeah,

863
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:24,759
Speaker 1: I guess on my end, like just based vaguely on

864
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:30,759
Speaker 1: what I know about spiritualism. What I thought was interesting

865
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:34,799
Speaker 1: is whatever. Spiritualism is a late nineteenth century movement that

866
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:38,160
Speaker 1: went well into the twentieth century. It was a religious

867
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:43,080
Speaker 1: movement that women were at the center of. And there

868
00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:47,759
Speaker 1: are so many flaws that came with this religion. That

869
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:49,799
Speaker 1: are the flaws like at the center of a lot

870
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:53,480
Speaker 1: of religions where it was you know, taking and sort

871
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:57,400
Speaker 1: of mutating indigenous beliefs and reclaiming it as if they

872
00:51:57,520 --> 00:51:59,920
Speaker 1: understood it, which was not true. You know, this is

873
00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:04,160
Speaker 1: very much like a religion that was shaped and put

874
00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:07,720
Speaker 1: on display by white women in the late nineteenth century

875
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:11,880
Speaker 1: into the twentieth century. But it is a rare religious

876
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:15,160
Speaker 1: movement that was driven by women, and that was very

877
00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:20,640
Speaker 1: threatening to the religious institutions at the time because spiritualism

878
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:26,800
Speaker 1: intersected with all of these progressive movements. It intersected with abolitionism,

879
00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:31,160
Speaker 1: like Frederick Douglass like fucked around with spiritualism. Like there's

880
00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:34,239
Speaker 1: a lot of history that is like it was at

881
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:40,000
Speaker 1: its core a flawed but essentially progressive religion that women

882
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:42,960
Speaker 1: were at the center of and so there was a

883
00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:47,480
Speaker 1: vested interest as this religion sort of continued to develop

884
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:52,960
Speaker 1: to prove that it was made up, which like depending

885
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:56,680
Speaker 1: on how whatever this is like in a very casually

886
00:52:56,840 --> 00:53:00,520
Speaker 1: mean way to view religion, it's all made up. But

887
00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:03,320
Speaker 1: there was a vested interest in like, no, this religion

888
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:07,560
Speaker 1: is extra made up because women are at the center

889
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:10,920
Speaker 1: of it, and so the heads of and and a

890
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:14,760
Speaker 1: lot of it was made of and I also still

891
00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:17,759
Speaker 1: kind of believe in it anyways. But you know, there

892
00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:21,799
Speaker 1: were the seance rituals that we sort of see in this,

893
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:27,080
Speaker 1: the idea of like table ceremonies, versions of the what

894
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:31,600
Speaker 1: would eventually become the Ouiji board, but you know, table movements,

895
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:35,440
Speaker 1: glass movements. All of this stuff was very inherent to

896
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:39,719
Speaker 1: what this was in the nineteenth century and a very

897
00:53:40,440 --> 00:53:43,960
Speaker 1: mainstream way at one point, like Mary Todd Lincoln like

898
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:46,920
Speaker 1: brought in the creators of spiritualism to try to bring

899
00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:50,239
Speaker 1: Abe back, like it was a mainstream movement for a

900
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:53,799
Speaker 1: while that was shut down when it was you know

901
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:57,799
Speaker 1: like oh well this isn't quite you know, actually the

902
00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:02,440
Speaker 1: supernatural accessing it as if any religion in the world

903
00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:05,839
Speaker 1: has been like, actually we have the ghosts like, no

904
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:08,560
Speaker 1: one has the ghosts, but we all have the ghosts.

905
00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:10,920
Speaker 1: That's why we all have the ghost But I just

906
00:54:11,719 --> 00:54:14,000
Speaker 1: I thought it was interesting that they went in on

907
00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:20,120
Speaker 1: this religion that was driven by white American women, specifically

908
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:25,760
Speaker 1: for this generational trauma story. It like, I think it works.

909
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:29,120
Speaker 1: I just I don't know the way it's executed with

910
00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:33,319
Speaker 1: the whole payment thing, I don't know. It felt a

911
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:36,239
Speaker 1: little like YadA YadA YadA to me. But also I

912
00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:39,120
Speaker 1: know that there are six hour analyzes and a lot

913
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:42,000
Speaker 1: that I missed. I just thought spiritualism was like a

914
00:54:42,080 --> 00:54:46,399
Speaker 1: cool entry point, and I didn't super love where he

915
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:48,600
Speaker 1: went with it. I guess I don't know what does

916
00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:49,239
Speaker 1: everyone think.

917
00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:54,960
Speaker 3: I mean, my one of my biggest issues with the movie,

918
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:58,120
Speaker 3: and I remember thinking this after I left the theater

919
00:54:58,239 --> 00:55:01,919
Speaker 3: in twenty eighteen when I saw it then, was the

920
00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:07,880
Speaker 3: what felt to me like a conflation of mental illness

921
00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:12,600
Speaker 3: and evil demons and kings of hell and that kind

922
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:18,959
Speaker 3: of stuff where I think the movie is suggesting. And

923
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:21,680
Speaker 3: I will just put a disclaimer here to say that

924
00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:25,400
Speaker 3: when a movie scares me so badly like this, I

925
00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:31,239
Speaker 3: have a hard time thinking about it intellectually and critically.

926
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:33,719
Speaker 3: Just because my brain gets so scared. I feel like

927
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:36,319
Speaker 3: I had a similar problem on the episode we did

928
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:39,400
Speaker 3: on The Ring, where I'm like, well, I don't know

929
00:55:39,440 --> 00:55:44,640
Speaker 3: how I feel about this movie from an intersectional feminist lens,

930
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:48,319
Speaker 3: because I'm too scared and my brain doesn't work right now.

931
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:53,440
Speaker 3: But the kind of general thing I feel is that again,

932
00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:56,840
Speaker 3: the movie does a very harmful thing of conflating mental

933
00:55:56,840 --> 00:56:01,840
Speaker 3: illness with evil and demon And you know, there's this

934
00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:06,520
Speaker 3: idea throughout the movie of something being hereditary and being

935
00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:10,160
Speaker 3: inherited from your family, and it kind of feels like

936
00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:14,239
Speaker 3: the movie posits the question, is it mental illness that's

937
00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:18,160
Speaker 3: being passed down through the generations or is it Payman

938
00:56:18,719 --> 00:56:22,640
Speaker 3: that's being passed down like you inherit the demon king

939
00:56:22,719 --> 00:56:25,160
Speaker 3: that your mother dedicated her life to, whether you like

940
00:56:25,239 --> 00:56:28,239
Speaker 3: it or not. And I mean, I think you could

941
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:33,480
Speaker 3: also make the argument that it's not conflation, it's allegory,

942
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:37,799
Speaker 3: like Payman is a metaphor for mental illness the way

943
00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:40,840
Speaker 3: that you can read like the Babaduk is a metaphor

944
00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:46,200
Speaker 3: for postpartum depression. And I also see a reading of

945
00:56:46,239 --> 00:56:50,000
Speaker 3: the specific mental illnesses that Annie describes her family members

946
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:53,560
Speaker 3: as having when she says, like, my father had this

947
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:57,759
Speaker 3: and died as a result, my brother had this and

948
00:56:58,080 --> 00:57:02,680
Speaker 3: died by suicide. But what was being perceived and diagnosed

949
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:06,759
Speaker 3: as mental illness in Annie's father and brother was actually,

950
00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:10,640
Speaker 3: I lean, trying to put paymen inside them. It was

951
00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:13,960
Speaker 3: never a mental illness. It was the demon all along.

952
00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:17,800
Speaker 3: And I see those interpretations, but I still can't help

953
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:20,800
Speaker 3: but feel that what the movie is doing here is

954
00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:25,840
Speaker 3: very malicious, especially because the specific mental illnesses that are

955
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:30,200
Speaker 3: mentioned are ones that are very often demonized by media

956
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:34,760
Speaker 3: and horror movies, ones that have huge stigmas attached to them.

957
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:39,000
Speaker 3: So I think the movie is conflating mental illness and

958
00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:44,360
Speaker 3: evil in a very harmful and stigmatizing way.

959
00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:48,320
Speaker 4: I know what you mean, but I almost feel like, So,

960
00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:53,160
Speaker 4: there's there's two places where I feel this, and I

961
00:57:53,280 --> 00:57:55,200
Speaker 4: absolutely see what you're talking about.

962
00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:55,400
Speaker 1: Here.

963
00:57:56,040 --> 00:57:58,920
Speaker 4: Is one in like the family History of mental Illness,

964
00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:02,320
Speaker 4: and they really get very specific with the types of

965
00:58:02,320 --> 00:58:05,439
Speaker 4: mental illness, but then don't really go into too much

966
00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:09,240
Speaker 4: detail aside from like the few tidbits that like Tony

967
00:58:09,280 --> 00:58:14,480
Speaker 4: spits out in like a ramble of hers and it's

968
00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:18,840
Speaker 4: like a very classic horror trope. Slash like thing that

969
00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:22,640
Speaker 4: happened in real life, that when people are mentally ill

970
00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:26,600
Speaker 4: or struggling with mental illness that is like affecting the

971
00:58:26,600 --> 00:58:29,040
Speaker 4: way they interact with other people. That like, historically people

972
00:58:29,080 --> 00:58:33,400
Speaker 4: have been like it's satan or like it's the devil.

973
00:58:33,760 --> 00:58:36,480
Speaker 4: And also this comes up over and over again in

974
00:58:36,520 --> 00:58:40,440
Speaker 4: horror movies about possession, where they initially think it is

975
00:58:40,760 --> 00:58:44,240
Speaker 4: a mental or physical like illment, but it's satan that's

976
00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:47,400
Speaker 4: like hysterical or like exactly exactly.

977
00:58:47,480 --> 00:58:50,320
Speaker 1: That's a lot of like I felt like the most

978
00:58:50,360 --> 00:58:54,040
Speaker 1: effective moment for me every time, even when you know,

979
00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:56,320
Speaker 1: like it's hard for your heart to not be with

980
00:58:56,360 --> 00:59:00,880
Speaker 1: Steve where he's like what like, but because he is

981
00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:04,960
Speaker 1: so thoroughly convinced of what is going on, he is

982
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:08,640
Speaker 1: not able to believe his wife about what is going on.

983
00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:12,520
Speaker 1: And she is right, like right, you can argue with

984
00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:17,160
Speaker 1: her methods all day long, you know, but she's right.

985
00:59:17,280 --> 00:59:21,720
Speaker 1: She is telling him what is happening, and he doesn't

986
00:59:21,880 --> 00:59:23,960
Speaker 1: believe her. And I think that that is like a

987
00:59:24,040 --> 00:59:27,080
Speaker 1: running theme throughout this movie of I mean, that is

988
00:59:27,320 --> 00:59:30,480
Speaker 1: part of why Charlie is gone. She is trying to

989
00:59:30,520 --> 00:59:33,160
Speaker 1: advocate for herself she's trying to say, like I don't

990
00:59:33,200 --> 00:59:35,720
Speaker 1: want to go to this party. I don't want to

991
00:59:35,720 --> 00:59:39,920
Speaker 1: be here. I'm sick, and like by the time someone

992
00:59:39,960 --> 00:59:44,040
Speaker 1: takes it seriously, it's already too late. And like, I

993
00:59:44,080 --> 00:59:45,880
Speaker 1: think the same thing. You kind of see the same

994
00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:50,960
Speaker 1: thing happen to her mother where they are both suffering.

995
00:59:51,800 --> 00:59:55,800
Speaker 1: And I agree that like the way that already asked her,

996
00:59:56,040 --> 00:59:59,760
Speaker 1: you know, deals with explicit mental illness in general, I

997
00:59:59,800 --> 01:00:03,240
Speaker 1: think is just like really messy and I just personally

998
01:00:03,240 --> 01:00:06,880
Speaker 1: don't like it. But what I thought, I don't know, plumber,

999
01:00:06,960 --> 01:00:08,640
Speaker 1: let me know you. I think that like what he

1000
01:00:08,800 --> 01:00:12,080
Speaker 1: was trying to do, and I am kind of on

1001
01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:15,600
Speaker 1: like how effective it is, but like what he's trying

1002
01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:19,720
Speaker 1: to do is almost like a comment on like hysteria

1003
01:00:20,080 --> 01:00:25,240
Speaker 1: and how women are so often told like no, you're

1004
01:00:25,320 --> 01:00:28,600
Speaker 1: not telling the truth. Something bad isn't happening, something is

1005
01:00:28,640 --> 01:00:32,200
Speaker 1: wrong with you, and there is a name for it.

1006
01:00:32,520 --> 01:00:35,480
Speaker 1: And the problem with that is like that does invalidate

1007
01:00:35,880 --> 01:00:39,040
Speaker 1: a lot of mental illness and talk around mental illness.

1008
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:42,840
Speaker 1: But the core of what he's saying I don't disagree with,

1009
01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:46,960
Speaker 1: and there is especially because he's talking about spiritualism, it

1010
01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:51,800
Speaker 1: feels like grounded in some historical precedent too, of just

1011
01:00:51,840 --> 01:00:54,960
Speaker 1: like I just don't like what you're saying, and so

1012
01:00:55,280 --> 01:00:58,720
Speaker 1: I need it to go away, and I need it

1013
01:00:58,760 --> 01:01:01,240
Speaker 1: to go away by any means necessary. I don't know,

1014
01:01:01,840 --> 01:01:02,439
Speaker 1: I don't know.

1015
01:01:02,840 --> 01:01:06,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, what I was thinking about with that is that

1016
01:01:06,520 --> 01:01:11,160
Speaker 4: I wonder if the movie is trying to be like

1017
01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:14,000
Speaker 4: what if it was the thing that you were afraid

1018
01:01:14,040 --> 01:01:16,320
Speaker 4: it was, or what if the uncanny thing? What if

1019
01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:19,280
Speaker 4: it was real and it was not explained by the

1020
01:01:19,320 --> 01:01:24,520
Speaker 4: mental illness, And it's kind of like interacting with the

1021
01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:28,320
Speaker 4: history and the tropes in that way. But I agree,

1022
01:01:28,360 --> 01:01:31,400
Speaker 4: it's kind of like it's a little half baked. But

1023
01:01:31,600 --> 01:01:34,320
Speaker 4: I think the aspect that kind of graded on me

1024
01:01:35,600 --> 01:01:42,280
Speaker 4: was Charlie specifically, who exhibits like maybe having some issues

1025
01:01:42,320 --> 01:01:48,160
Speaker 4: like socially that might like need some like therapeutic intervention potentially,

1026
01:01:48,880 --> 01:01:54,680
Speaker 4: but it's because she's a demon. That's like where I

1027
01:01:54,800 --> 01:01:58,880
Speaker 4: was like, Okay, well, you know, just because someone has

1028
01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:02,560
Speaker 4: trouble making friends with kids their age and like she

1029
01:02:02,640 --> 01:02:05,840
Speaker 4: has like a very stilted way of talking, doesn't mean

1030
01:02:06,320 --> 01:02:09,760
Speaker 4: that they are an incarnation of like the ninth demon

1031
01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:12,000
Speaker 4: of Hell or whatever.

1032
01:02:12,680 --> 01:02:16,560
Speaker 1: Socially awkward thirteen year old girl. If all of them

1033
01:02:16,720 --> 01:02:19,400
Speaker 1: are pam On, we're fucked.

1034
01:02:20,960 --> 01:02:21,160
Speaker 2: Right.

1035
01:02:21,440 --> 01:02:25,840
Speaker 3: I was reading different people's writing about this movie through

1036
01:02:25,880 --> 01:02:29,919
Speaker 3: the lens of disability and ableism. The movie doesn't say

1037
01:02:29,960 --> 01:02:34,800
Speaker 3: anything specific about Charlie, but some people were reading Charlie

1038
01:02:34,840 --> 01:02:39,880
Speaker 3: as being autistic based on various traits and behaviors she displays.

1039
01:02:40,800 --> 01:02:43,720
Speaker 3: And then separate from that, the actor who plays Charlie,

1040
01:02:43,880 --> 01:02:49,000
Speaker 3: Millie Shapiro, was born with clydal cranial dysplasia, which affects

1041
01:02:49,040 --> 01:02:52,800
Speaker 3: a person's bones and teeth often affects their height and

1042
01:02:52,880 --> 01:02:58,400
Speaker 3: facial structure. So to characterize Charlie in this way, that

1043
01:02:58,640 --> 01:03:02,920
Speaker 3: can be read as being neurodivergent. And this character is

1044
01:03:02,960 --> 01:03:06,440
Speaker 3: played by an actor who has a facial difference, and

1045
01:03:06,640 --> 01:03:09,760
Speaker 3: that's the character who has a demon living inside them

1046
01:03:10,040 --> 01:03:12,720
Speaker 3: and has had this demon in them since, like right

1047
01:03:12,800 --> 01:03:18,160
Speaker 3: after they were born. Has very ablest implications. But I

1048
01:03:18,200 --> 01:03:21,600
Speaker 3: also saw examples of people with autism saying they felt

1049
01:03:21,800 --> 01:03:27,360
Speaker 3: represented by Charlie, regardless of the implication that her atypical

1050
01:03:27,400 --> 01:03:34,480
Speaker 3: behavior and vocal stemming, for example, are actually a demon

1051
01:03:34,680 --> 01:03:40,840
Speaker 3: displaying these behaviors. So again open to many reads and interpretations.

1052
01:03:41,280 --> 01:03:44,880
Speaker 3: I also wanted to point out that there is ablest

1053
01:03:44,960 --> 01:03:51,360
Speaker 3: language surrounding Charlie, not directed at her exactly, but that

1054
01:03:51,520 --> 01:03:55,760
Speaker 3: scene where Peter's crush says Charlie drew a picture of her,

1055
01:03:56,360 --> 01:03:59,920
Speaker 3: and then this girl uses an ablest slur to describe

1056
01:04:00,200 --> 01:04:04,000
Speaker 3: how Charlie depicted her in the drawing, which I feel

1057
01:04:04,040 --> 01:04:08,760
Speaker 3: is still a veiled ablest insult toward Charlie. All this

1058
01:04:08,880 --> 01:04:11,720
Speaker 3: to say, there's a lot happening in this movie regarding

1059
01:04:12,400 --> 01:04:18,520
Speaker 3: implications surrounding mental illness and disability and neurodivergence and whether

1060
01:04:18,600 --> 01:04:23,440
Speaker 3: or not those things are actually a demon inhabiting someone's body,

1061
01:04:24,240 --> 01:04:26,040
Speaker 3: and none of it sits well with.

1062
01:04:26,000 --> 01:04:29,080
Speaker 1: Me, right, Yeah, Like that's I feel like where the

1063
01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:33,480
Speaker 1: issue is. It just kind of like interrupts I don't know,

1064
01:04:33,760 --> 01:04:37,840
Speaker 1: it interrupts part of what I like about this movie,

1065
01:04:38,040 --> 01:04:40,920
Speaker 1: which is, you know, it's a little absurd and like

1066
01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:45,000
Speaker 1: way over the top because it's fucking hereditary. But the

1067
01:04:45,080 --> 01:04:50,640
Speaker 1: idea that like this line of women have been far

1068
01:04:50,760 --> 01:04:54,800
Speaker 1: more powerful than anyone ever gave them credit for because

1069
01:04:55,000 --> 01:04:59,680
Speaker 1: of the way that people kind of systemically dismiss women's

1070
01:04:59,680 --> 01:05:04,400
Speaker 1: con concerns, women's ideas and I also feel like it

1071
01:05:04,440 --> 01:05:07,600
Speaker 1: kind of ties into you know, like the fact that

1072
01:05:08,240 --> 01:05:12,080
Speaker 1: Annie is an artist, and that is like doesn't seem

1073
01:05:12,080 --> 01:05:15,080
Speaker 1: like it's taken super seriously by anyone in her family

1074
01:05:15,160 --> 01:05:19,920
Speaker 1: or anyone around her. And I don't know. I like,

1075
01:05:20,200 --> 01:05:23,520
Speaker 1: on its face the fact that like, you know, these whatever,

1076
01:05:23,760 --> 01:05:27,840
Speaker 1: three four generations of women have been you know, dismissed

1077
01:05:28,000 --> 01:05:33,760
Speaker 1: as very sick, when in fact they were extremely powerful

1078
01:05:33,880 --> 01:05:37,360
Speaker 1: and misunderstood. I like that theme. I think it gets

1079
01:05:37,600 --> 01:05:41,600
Speaker 1: very messy. I don't think ari Astor, a first time

1080
01:05:42,040 --> 01:05:46,720
Speaker 1: male director, is the one to be able to present

1081
01:05:46,880 --> 01:05:49,800
Speaker 1: this in a nuanced and thoughtful way. But I like

1082
01:05:49,840 --> 01:05:52,680
Speaker 1: the core idea of it. But that's all a little

1083
01:05:52,760 --> 01:05:59,080
Speaker 1: like interrupted by having Charlie be the demon, like why why? Yeah.

1084
01:05:59,120 --> 01:06:01,080
Speaker 4: But at the same time, I keep thinking about what

1085
01:06:01,160 --> 01:06:04,640
Speaker 4: you had said earlier, that like what if your worst

1086
01:06:04,680 --> 01:06:08,280
Speaker 4: fear and like the worst thing you're thinking is actually true.

1087
01:06:08,880 --> 01:06:11,600
Speaker 4: This is like what if that child who's behaving oddly,

1088
01:06:12,160 --> 01:06:16,200
Speaker 4: it's actually because they're that like worst fear, like they're evil.

1089
01:06:16,640 --> 01:06:18,920
Speaker 4: So it's like that over and over again with all

1090
01:06:18,960 --> 01:06:20,160
Speaker 4: of these different things.

1091
01:06:20,480 --> 01:06:24,880
Speaker 1: I also don't think that Annie, like I, you know, whatever, narratively,

1092
01:06:25,520 --> 01:06:29,200
Speaker 1: Annie is not a great parent, Like she's not, and

1093
01:06:29,240 --> 01:06:32,800
Speaker 1: it seems like, you know, her mom was also a

1094
01:06:32,840 --> 01:06:37,160
Speaker 1: pretty like horrifically bad parent, and there is like I

1095
01:06:37,200 --> 01:06:41,240
Speaker 1: mean hereditary hat like has to do with this paymon shit,

1096
01:06:41,560 --> 01:06:45,560
Speaker 1: but it also has to do with behavioral patterns like

1097
01:06:45,680 --> 01:06:49,000
Speaker 1: Annie was. It seemed like went through I mean, we

1098
01:06:49,080 --> 01:06:51,880
Speaker 1: know went through a lot of really traumatic stuff when

1099
01:06:51,920 --> 01:06:55,160
Speaker 1: she was a kid, and the attitude in the house

1100
01:06:55,240 --> 01:06:57,160
Speaker 1: is we don't talk about it. And we see her

1101
01:06:58,000 --> 01:07:02,120
Speaker 1: repeat that pattern when she loses her mother and then

1102
01:07:02,160 --> 01:07:07,200
Speaker 1: she loses her daughter. She never talks to Peter, and

1103
01:07:07,280 --> 01:07:09,960
Speaker 1: I think, you know, like you can go any which way,

1104
01:07:10,000 --> 01:07:14,000
Speaker 1: but like in this family, Steve is the more emotionally

1105
01:07:14,040 --> 01:07:18,360
Speaker 1: intelligent parent and he's not great, but he's trying. And

1106
01:07:18,760 --> 01:07:22,040
Speaker 1: you just see Annie for all of these reasons that

1107
01:07:22,120 --> 01:07:26,600
Speaker 1: are understandable, but in terms of showing up for her kid,

1108
01:07:27,280 --> 01:07:32,240
Speaker 1: she doesn't. And like that scene between Peter and Annie

1109
01:07:32,280 --> 01:07:34,760
Speaker 1: at the dinner table is so gut wrenching because you

1110
01:07:34,800 --> 01:07:39,440
Speaker 1: can just feel ugh, like it like makes me feel

1111
01:07:39,480 --> 01:07:41,640
Speaker 1: sick when I watch it because you can just see

1112
01:07:41,680 --> 01:07:45,960
Speaker 1: like both of these characters want it to be someone's fault.

1113
01:07:46,160 --> 01:07:50,240
Speaker 1: And the truth is somewhere in the middle, which is

1114
01:07:50,320 --> 01:07:54,080
Speaker 1: why it kind of bugs me. Bugged me, and I

1115
01:07:54,120 --> 01:07:56,800
Speaker 1: think still bugs me that at the end we're kind

1116
01:07:56,800 --> 01:08:01,880
Speaker 1: of given a prescriptive answer as to why what happened happened.

1117
01:08:02,800 --> 01:08:05,120
Speaker 1: It did surprise me that we were given such a

1118
01:08:05,120 --> 01:08:07,680
Speaker 1: clear cut answer, but I sort of I guess, just

1119
01:08:07,720 --> 01:08:14,160
Speaker 1: like personally, I kind of preferred the stomach churning uncertainty

1120
01:08:14,440 --> 01:08:18,120
Speaker 1: of like why did this happen? Sure Annie's choice is

1121
01:08:18,200 --> 01:08:21,479
Speaker 1: contributed to it, and Peter's choice is contributed to it,

1122
01:08:22,360 --> 01:08:25,519
Speaker 1: but there's no clear answer, there's no clear fault. But

1123
01:08:26,000 --> 01:08:26,599
Speaker 1: the end of the.

1124
01:08:26,600 --> 01:08:28,400
Speaker 3: Movie, ultimately it was the cult.

1125
01:08:28,800 --> 01:08:31,200
Speaker 1: Well that's why. That's sort of why I don't like

1126
01:08:31,240 --> 01:08:34,160
Speaker 1: the witchy stuff towards the end, because it like it

1127
01:08:34,240 --> 01:08:36,600
Speaker 1: gives you. I thought it just kind of gave me

1128
01:08:36,760 --> 01:08:40,479
Speaker 1: more answers than I wanted in a way that felt

1129
01:08:40,479 --> 01:08:43,479
Speaker 1: almost like a little bit less haunting at the end

1130
01:08:43,479 --> 01:08:45,640
Speaker 1: to be like, oh, it was actually, you know, like

1131
01:08:46,360 --> 01:08:52,280
Speaker 1: the scary Treehouse cult that this was predetermined many moons ago,

1132
01:08:52,600 --> 01:08:56,679
Speaker 1: and like so now, I mean, not that it ends

1133
01:08:56,720 --> 01:08:59,960
Speaker 1: great for Peter, but you know, he can whatever rest

1134
01:09:00,040 --> 01:09:02,880
Speaker 1: assured that it wasn't his fault, which I feel like

1135
01:09:02,960 --> 01:09:06,160
Speaker 1: is almost a worse punishment than becoming the devil himself.

1136
01:09:06,240 --> 01:09:11,240
Speaker 1: Is always wondering like was this my fault? Like that's

1137
01:09:11,280 --> 01:09:14,559
Speaker 1: one of the most I think like horrible actual things

1138
01:09:14,560 --> 01:09:17,240
Speaker 1: that can happen to a person is having to wonder that.

1139
01:09:17,600 --> 01:09:20,800
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, there's so much about blame in this movie,

1140
01:09:21,760 --> 01:09:24,040
Speaker 4: and I have in my notes. I have the word

1141
01:09:24,160 --> 01:09:27,559
Speaker 4: blame in big letters with a square around it because

1142
01:09:27,560 --> 01:09:30,519
Speaker 4: it comes up over and over again and how like

1143
01:09:31,280 --> 01:09:36,599
Speaker 4: blame can like distort relationships. But sure, I kind of

1144
01:09:36,640 --> 01:09:42,080
Speaker 4: feel the opposite of you on the committing to an answer,

1145
01:09:42,360 --> 01:09:44,479
Speaker 4: like a clear cut answer that there was a cult

1146
01:09:44,560 --> 01:09:46,360
Speaker 4: and there was a demon and all of this was

1147
01:09:46,920 --> 01:09:52,520
Speaker 4: I feel like so much horror that like is allegorical

1148
01:09:52,880 --> 01:09:55,800
Speaker 4: or like trying to represent or talk about things like

1149
01:09:56,080 --> 01:10:00,519
Speaker 4: commits too hard and the metaphor is like too neat clean,

1150
01:10:01,320 --> 01:10:05,200
Speaker 4: and this one is like messy a little bit, and

1151
01:10:05,240 --> 01:10:09,360
Speaker 4: like none of the none of the representations, like feel

1152
01:10:09,640 --> 01:10:13,680
Speaker 4: are like one hundred percent. We can't definitively be like

1153
01:10:13,800 --> 01:10:18,719
Speaker 4: this is about grief, or like this is about inherited trauma,

1154
01:10:18,920 --> 01:10:21,599
Speaker 4: or this is about mental illness or anything like that

1155
01:10:21,680 --> 01:10:23,639
Speaker 4: like all of that stuff is like in the soup,

1156
01:10:24,640 --> 01:10:28,759
Speaker 4: and what makes it cohesive is that there is actually

1157
01:10:28,800 --> 01:10:33,080
Speaker 4: a plot and a reason rooted in like the reality

1158
01:10:33,160 --> 01:10:36,599
Speaker 4: of the movie for all of these things to be happening,

1159
01:10:37,320 --> 01:10:42,960
Speaker 4: and ultimately, like all of the characters are kind of

1160
01:10:43,000 --> 01:10:46,080
Speaker 4: helpless in the face of the larger powers. And I

1161
01:10:46,080 --> 01:10:50,519
Speaker 4: think that's where I enjoy horror is just like when

1162
01:10:50,800 --> 01:10:54,760
Speaker 4: it lets go of the notion that we as like

1163
01:10:54,840 --> 01:10:59,479
Speaker 4: little people with our little dramas, have any sway on

1164
01:10:59,720 --> 01:11:04,120
Speaker 4: these like huge, old, supernatural things that are happening around us.

1165
01:11:05,439 --> 01:11:10,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, sometimes I wish I could be like, yeah, the depression,

1166
01:11:10,000 --> 01:11:14,880
Speaker 3: I'm constantly feeling that's just the seventh King of Hell

1167
01:11:15,640 --> 01:11:17,519
Speaker 3: weaseling his way into my brain.

1168
01:11:18,160 --> 01:11:21,120
Speaker 1: Maybe that's a personal thing because I would rather blame

1169
01:11:21,880 --> 01:11:25,480
Speaker 1: myself and my mom for those things.

1170
01:11:26,680 --> 01:11:29,679
Speaker 4: But that's like in a family drama, it's like it's

1171
01:11:29,920 --> 01:11:33,280
Speaker 4: yourself and the mom is the problem. And then that's

1172
01:11:33,360 --> 01:11:36,519
Speaker 4: like the lovely thing about horror, just like genre in general,

1173
01:11:36,520 --> 01:11:39,679
Speaker 4: it's like, but actually, there's like this third, sinister, magical

1174
01:11:39,680 --> 01:11:41,240
Speaker 4: thing that has nothing to do with you guys.

1175
01:11:41,600 --> 01:11:43,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess that's personal. I just wish that there

1176
01:11:43,720 --> 01:11:45,960
Speaker 1: was maybe. I mean, I don't even object to like

1177
01:11:46,520 --> 01:11:49,320
Speaker 1: the inclusion of the cult. It's like you almost kind

1178
01:11:49,360 --> 01:11:52,600
Speaker 1: of get a second movie out of it. But I

1179
01:11:52,680 --> 01:11:55,120
Speaker 1: just wish maybe there was I don't know, Yeah, this

1180
01:11:55,280 --> 01:11:57,840
Speaker 1: is strictly a personal thing, but I wish there was

1181
01:11:57,880 --> 01:12:02,200
Speaker 1: a little more like leeway left for You're not totally sure,

1182
01:12:02,880 --> 01:12:05,760
Speaker 1: because cults are created by people, but this movie would

1183
01:12:05,760 --> 01:12:09,840
Speaker 1: have you believed because you see, like whatever spiritualism had

1184
01:12:09,920 --> 01:12:13,120
Speaker 1: sound off. You see that Tony Collette checks all of

1185
01:12:13,160 --> 01:12:16,400
Speaker 1: the classic spiritualist tricks. She looks under the table, she

1186
01:12:16,479 --> 01:12:19,519
Speaker 1: looks for this, she looks for that, and so if

1187
01:12:19,560 --> 01:12:23,559
Speaker 1: you've seen any seance rig, you know it's clear that

1188
01:12:23,680 --> 01:12:26,439
Speaker 1: like this is real, and that is like confirming the

1189
01:12:26,479 --> 01:12:29,479
Speaker 1: existence of this magic. I just I don't know, Yeah,

1190
01:12:29,680 --> 01:12:32,960
Speaker 1: I wish that that door was kind of left open

1191
01:12:33,360 --> 01:12:36,680
Speaker 1: a little bit. I've found myself like really drawn to

1192
01:12:36,800 --> 01:12:39,760
Speaker 1: like horror stories that let you have a little bit

1193
01:12:39,840 --> 01:12:45,360
Speaker 1: of both. I read a book recently, The September House

1194
01:12:46,360 --> 01:12:50,559
Speaker 1: by Carissa Orlando. It's a really good haunted house book

1195
01:12:50,600 --> 01:12:52,960
Speaker 1: that I feel like kind of like lets you have

1196
01:12:53,040 --> 01:12:54,680
Speaker 1: your cake and eat it too, where it is like

1197
01:12:54,720 --> 01:12:58,639
Speaker 1: a story that is grounded in a woman going through

1198
01:12:58,640 --> 01:13:03,360
Speaker 1: a mental health crisis and also ghosts surreal and like

1199
01:13:03,600 --> 01:13:06,360
Speaker 1: both of these things exist. I don't know, that's it

1200
01:13:06,720 --> 01:13:11,640
Speaker 1: was my ideal horror story where mental illness is a

1201
01:13:11,720 --> 01:13:18,240
Speaker 1: real and present force and also the supernatural is fucking

1202
01:13:18,280 --> 01:13:20,639
Speaker 1: with us at all times, and if you combine the two,

1203
01:13:22,040 --> 01:13:23,920
Speaker 1: you're fucked, which is maybe just like what I was

1204
01:13:23,960 --> 01:13:27,800
Speaker 1: looking for more from the conclusion of Hereditary then than

1205
01:13:27,840 --> 01:13:29,960
Speaker 1: there is. But yeah, again that's like a personal thing.

1206
01:13:30,960 --> 01:13:31,120
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1207
01:13:31,160 --> 01:13:35,519
Speaker 3: I mean, if the like cult and payment stuff and

1208
01:13:35,680 --> 01:13:39,879
Speaker 3: all the magic and mysticism is taken out of this movie,

1209
01:13:39,960 --> 01:13:44,040
Speaker 3: it would just be a really effective family drama about

1210
01:13:44,280 --> 01:13:47,200
Speaker 3: grief and generational trauma.

1211
01:13:47,400 --> 01:13:48,919
Speaker 1: You gotta have the goals.

1212
01:13:49,800 --> 01:13:52,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, But I do like that there is a lot

1213
01:13:52,439 --> 01:13:58,160
Speaker 3: of emphasis on blame and trust too, where like the

1214
01:13:58,200 --> 01:14:03,400
Speaker 3: families having troubled each other and where they can't trust

1215
01:14:03,400 --> 01:14:05,960
Speaker 3: each other, they are throwing blame around at each other.

1216
01:14:06,080 --> 01:14:09,320
Speaker 3: So and these are like things that are very familiar

1217
01:14:09,320 --> 01:14:12,479
Speaker 3: in a lot of family dynamics, So I think it's

1218
01:14:12,520 --> 01:14:16,639
Speaker 3: interesting that the movie explores those and I think that's

1219
01:14:16,680 --> 01:14:21,439
Speaker 3: why this movie has like a longer lasting legacy and

1220
01:14:21,560 --> 01:14:25,840
Speaker 3: is beloved by its fans more than a pretty like

1221
01:14:25,920 --> 01:14:29,120
Speaker 3: straightforward ghost story movie that fails to kind of dig

1222
01:14:29,200 --> 01:14:34,640
Speaker 3: deeper into you know, a character's internal struggle and you know,

1223
01:14:34,760 --> 01:14:38,599
Speaker 3: complicated family dynamics, which a lot of horror movies fail

1224
01:14:38,680 --> 01:14:41,000
Speaker 3: to do just because it's like it's a ghost story

1225
01:14:41,080 --> 01:14:44,240
Speaker 3: or it's a monster story and you know, not really

1226
01:14:44,280 --> 01:14:48,120
Speaker 3: digging deep into anything actually like interesting or thematic about

1227
01:14:48,240 --> 01:14:52,320
Speaker 3: the human experience or the human condition. I want to

1228
01:14:52,360 --> 01:14:58,000
Speaker 3: talk about payment and gender because.

1229
01:14:58,320 --> 01:15:01,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, I guess there's something.

1230
01:15:01,560 --> 01:15:05,920
Speaker 3: There's something here in the text of the movie. So

1231
01:15:05,960 --> 01:15:10,040
Speaker 3: we learned we hear early on in a conversation between

1232
01:15:10,479 --> 01:15:15,799
Speaker 3: Charlie and her mom Annie. It's right after the grandmother's funeral,

1233
01:15:15,960 --> 01:15:19,360
Speaker 3: and Charlie says, Grandma wanted me to be a boy,

1234
01:15:20,320 --> 01:15:23,560
Speaker 3: and we don't really get any context for that or

1235
01:15:23,600 --> 01:15:25,200
Speaker 3: any other information aside.

1236
01:15:25,360 --> 01:15:27,240
Speaker 1: I feel like we're just like left to play on

1237
01:15:27,960 --> 01:15:30,400
Speaker 1: the classic successor thing.

1238
01:15:30,560 --> 01:15:33,400
Speaker 4: I don't know, Yeah, I feel like having grown up

1239
01:15:33,439 --> 01:15:38,280
Speaker 4: in a really patriarchal like family that my grandmother also

1240
01:15:39,040 --> 01:15:41,040
Speaker 4: was like I wish you were a boy when I

1241
01:15:41,120 --> 01:15:44,960
Speaker 4: was first born, So I like totally like breathed past that.

1242
01:15:45,200 --> 01:15:49,120
Speaker 4: I was like, oh, that's normal patriarchy stuff.

1243
01:15:49,360 --> 01:15:52,760
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, it could definitely be chalked up to that.

1244
01:15:53,080 --> 01:15:55,760
Speaker 3: And then as the movie goes on, and especially by

1245
01:15:55,760 --> 01:16:00,920
Speaker 3: the end, you find out why the grandma won her

1246
01:16:00,960 --> 01:16:04,479
Speaker 3: to be a boy because of the whole payment thing.

1247
01:16:05,280 --> 01:16:08,639
Speaker 3: And when Annie is kind of rifling through the book

1248
01:16:08,720 --> 01:16:12,800
Speaker 3: about King Payman, there's this passage that I paused on

1249
01:16:13,080 --> 01:16:15,320
Speaker 3: and wrote down as much of it as I could,

1250
01:16:16,160 --> 01:16:20,800
Speaker 3: but it's basically explaining that there's some text because if

1251
01:16:20,800 --> 01:16:24,960
Speaker 3: you look up payment on you know, scholarly journal Wikipedia,

1252
01:16:25,240 --> 01:16:27,880
Speaker 3: this is a thing Like this isn't an invention for

1253
01:16:27,960 --> 01:16:30,080
Speaker 3: the movie Hereditary, there's lore.

1254
01:16:30,240 --> 01:16:32,720
Speaker 1: I think a lot of horror movies have like encountered

1255
01:16:32,760 --> 01:16:35,479
Speaker 1: different versions of these guys.

1256
01:16:35,760 --> 01:16:41,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, but there's apparently some text called the Goaisha or something,

1257
01:16:41,960 --> 01:16:44,839
Speaker 3: and the book that Annie reads from says the Goisha

1258
01:16:44,880 --> 01:16:48,960
Speaker 3: itself makes no mention of King Payman's face. Then there's

1259
01:16:48,960 --> 01:16:52,200
Speaker 3: like text that's cut off other documentation describes him as

1260
01:16:52,240 --> 01:16:56,040
Speaker 3: having a woman's face, while something something some other text

1261
01:16:56,560 --> 01:17:00,840
Speaker 3: refers to him using strictly masculine pronouns. As result, the

1262
01:17:00,960 --> 01:17:04,800
Speaker 3: sexes of the hosts have varied, but the most successful

1263
01:17:04,840 --> 01:17:08,639
Speaker 3: incarnations have been with men and it is documented that

1264
01:17:08,760 --> 01:17:12,479
Speaker 3: King Payment has become livid and vengeful when offered a

1265
01:17:12,560 --> 01:17:16,160
Speaker 3: female host. For these reasons, it is imperative to remember

1266
01:17:16,400 --> 01:17:19,720
Speaker 3: that King Payment is a male, thus covetous of a

1267
01:17:19,800 --> 01:17:24,120
Speaker 3: male human body. So we find out, okay, this Payment

1268
01:17:24,240 --> 01:17:30,960
Speaker 3: worshiping cult needs a male host to put Paymin into.

1269
01:17:31,680 --> 01:17:36,960
Speaker 3: And then again through some things that are implied throughout

1270
01:17:37,000 --> 01:17:42,719
Speaker 3: the movie, we realize that Payman has been inhabiting Charlie,

1271
01:17:42,840 --> 01:17:47,000
Speaker 3: or had been inhabiting Charlie, but King Payment wasn't happy

1272
01:17:47,040 --> 01:17:53,160
Speaker 3: about that. He wants a male host. So that's why

1273
01:17:53,200 --> 01:17:59,000
Speaker 3: they orchestrate this whole thing to put Paymin into Peter's body.

1274
01:17:59,200 --> 01:18:02,160
Speaker 3: I don't know why that didn't just happen originally.

1275
01:18:02,840 --> 01:18:06,280
Speaker 4: Oh, they they explained that there's a part where I

1276
01:18:06,280 --> 01:18:09,679
Speaker 4: think it's in the in the like grief group therapy

1277
01:18:09,800 --> 01:18:14,519
Speaker 4: thing where she talks about how she wanted to distance

1278
01:18:14,560 --> 01:18:18,120
Speaker 4: herself from her mother because of like their toxic relationship,

1279
01:18:18,479 --> 01:18:23,519
Speaker 4: and she didn't let her go near her son at all, right,

1280
01:18:23,720 --> 01:18:26,120
Speaker 4: but then she felt bad about it, so she quote

1281
01:18:26,200 --> 01:18:27,599
Speaker 4: unquote gave her Charlie.

1282
01:18:28,040 --> 01:18:31,240
Speaker 3: Okay, okay, okay, got it. So that's why they use

1283
01:18:31,520 --> 01:18:37,280
Speaker 3: Charlie's body for king Payment to inhabit, but it's not

1284
01:18:37,400 --> 01:18:41,600
Speaker 3: quite working out because Payment is a misogynist and he

1285
01:18:41,680 --> 01:18:45,679
Speaker 3: hates women or something. I don't know what to make

1286
01:18:45,720 --> 01:18:46,680
Speaker 3: of this exactly.

1287
01:18:48,360 --> 01:18:51,960
Speaker 4: Or he's just like very like secure in his gender.

1288
01:18:51,840 --> 01:18:56,120
Speaker 1: And wants present body being put into their wrong body. Yeah,

1289
01:18:56,320 --> 01:19:00,920
Speaker 1: it's like we gotta decapitate this body. I don't like. Yeah,

1290
01:19:01,000 --> 01:19:03,600
Speaker 1: I didn't know what to make of it either, but

1291
01:19:03,800 --> 01:19:08,280
Speaker 1: I yeah, when I was reading back on criticism of

1292
01:19:08,360 --> 01:19:11,599
Speaker 1: the time, I feel like I didn't quite agree with

1293
01:19:11,720 --> 01:19:16,640
Speaker 1: the genter, like there's like a clear desire for a

1294
01:19:16,760 --> 01:19:19,640
Speaker 1: male leader. I don't know. I don't know because I

1295
01:19:19,640 --> 01:19:22,480
Speaker 1: think I like, ultimately what I decided is I don't

1296
01:19:22,520 --> 01:19:26,519
Speaker 1: know or understand enough about the underlying like.

1297
01:19:26,560 --> 01:19:31,840
Speaker 6: Satanist demonology, demonology. Yeah, it's like spiritualism, I get. But

1298
01:19:32,000 --> 01:19:37,000
Speaker 6: towards the end this movie pretty severely takes a left

1299
01:19:37,080 --> 01:19:39,719
Speaker 6: from that and gets full on into demon shit.

1300
01:19:40,120 --> 01:19:42,400
Speaker 1: And so this movie I feel like, lures you in

1301
01:19:42,479 --> 01:19:45,720
Speaker 1: with kind of like more friendly like women are in

1302
01:19:45,800 --> 01:19:49,040
Speaker 1: charge spiritualism, and then it takes a turn to demonism

1303
01:19:49,120 --> 01:19:51,519
Speaker 1: at some point in a way that like I felt

1304
01:19:51,520 --> 01:19:55,760
Speaker 1: out of my depth and it feels like and this

1305
01:19:55,920 --> 01:20:00,760
Speaker 1: is just like strictly based on observation, it seems like

1306
01:20:00,840 --> 01:20:06,120
Speaker 1: the demon shit is a little more patriarchal. Yeah, I

1307
01:20:06,160 --> 01:20:08,800
Speaker 1: just felt like a departure from what we were seeing

1308
01:20:08,800 --> 01:20:13,719
Speaker 1: before because spiritualism is historically driven by women, and demon

1309
01:20:13,760 --> 01:20:17,960
Speaker 1: shit seems like it is not. So I didn't know

1310
01:20:18,080 --> 01:20:19,080
Speaker 1: what they were doing.

1311
01:20:19,280 --> 01:20:25,679
Speaker 4: Demon stuff is for boys, like church church adjacent, which

1312
01:20:26,040 --> 01:20:27,320
Speaker 4: traditionally I think.

1313
01:20:27,200 --> 01:20:31,400
Speaker 1: Right, it gets more patriarchal. Yeah, it was just confusing.

1314
01:20:31,520 --> 01:20:34,920
Speaker 1: I wonder how much like ari Astor knows about this

1315
01:20:35,000 --> 01:20:37,200
Speaker 1: shit and how much of it is just like this

1316
01:20:37,280 --> 01:20:39,280
Speaker 1: is what I need to happen. What do I need?

1317
01:20:39,400 --> 01:20:41,960
Speaker 1: Like what horror tools could I use to make it happen?

1318
01:20:42,320 --> 01:20:45,000
Speaker 1: But yeah, I guess not that we're talking about it.

1319
01:20:45,000 --> 01:20:46,679
Speaker 1: It feels like there is kind of like a fake

1320
01:20:46,720 --> 01:20:52,000
Speaker 1: out with like leading with like spiritual practice that is

1321
01:20:52,800 --> 01:20:57,960
Speaker 1: both troubled and women of historically been leaders, and then

1322
01:20:58,040 --> 01:21:02,240
Speaker 1: kind of pivoting at some point to like, actually it's

1323
01:21:02,280 --> 01:21:06,040
Speaker 1: a more patriarchal demon thing. I don't know.

1324
01:21:06,160 --> 01:21:09,960
Speaker 4: I feel like the spiritualism part was actually a trick

1325
01:21:10,400 --> 01:21:15,439
Speaker 4: that the cult was playing on Annie, being like you're

1326
01:21:15,479 --> 01:21:19,559
Speaker 4: a medium and we can contact your child, and this

1327
01:21:19,760 --> 01:21:23,800
Speaker 4: is like, this is a spiritualism thing, but really they

1328
01:21:23,840 --> 01:21:27,600
Speaker 4: were like read this incantation that summons the demon and

1329
01:21:28,080 --> 01:21:30,200
Speaker 4: summon's your child. And by your child, I do mean

1330
01:21:30,200 --> 01:21:32,880
Speaker 4: the demon that was inhabiting your child, right, and like

1331
01:21:33,000 --> 01:21:38,759
Speaker 4: using the grief, like grief drove a lot of spiritualism stuff,

1332
01:21:38,920 --> 01:21:44,240
Speaker 4: I think, which I learned from your podcast actually, and

1333
01:21:45,120 --> 01:21:49,880
Speaker 4: this is like capitalizing on that for like other nefarious

1334
01:21:49,920 --> 01:21:54,559
Speaker 4: demon cult needs and it's all Rosemary's Baby from there.

1335
01:21:54,960 --> 01:21:57,799
Speaker 1: It is truely. I mean, it's like and Doud's performance

1336
01:21:57,880 --> 01:22:01,479
Speaker 1: is so clearly pulled from Raspberry's and like I mean

1337
01:22:01,520 --> 01:22:03,439
Speaker 1: that as a compliment, but it's like you can see

1338
01:22:03,479 --> 01:22:08,479
Speaker 1: how like interacting those movies are. I yeah, I don't know.

1339
01:22:08,640 --> 01:22:12,240
Speaker 1: And and again it's like I guess it's everyone's my

1340
01:22:12,320 --> 01:22:15,720
Speaker 1: life is going to vary for like ari astor landing On,

1341
01:22:15,960 --> 01:22:20,519
Speaker 1: Like it's actually this scary patriarchal thing that ended up

1342
01:22:20,600 --> 01:22:23,240
Speaker 1: being kind of the internal truth of what's going on.

1343
01:22:23,720 --> 01:22:29,920
Speaker 1: It does explain how most women in this world seem

1344
01:22:29,960 --> 01:22:34,160
Speaker 1: to be absolutely fucked or beholden to this system. But

1345
01:22:34,400 --> 01:22:37,040
Speaker 1: I don't know. Yeah, the supernatural stuff in this movie,

1346
01:22:37,280 --> 01:22:40,000
Speaker 1: it's very possible that I just don't know enough, but

1347
01:22:40,080 --> 01:22:45,559
Speaker 1: it never quite connects for me. The family stuff really connects. Yeah,

1348
01:22:45,640 --> 01:22:47,880
Speaker 1: it just seems like a family of people who are

1349
01:22:48,439 --> 01:22:52,360
Speaker 1: all genuinely doing their best and are undercut by either

1350
01:22:52,479 --> 01:22:57,160
Speaker 1: mental illness or the work of the devil, and sometimes.

1351
01:22:56,680 --> 01:23:02,160
Speaker 3: Both, sometimes both. And I think ari astroposits one of

1352
01:23:02,240 --> 01:23:05,360
Speaker 3: those two things are the same thing, mental illness.

1353
01:23:04,960 --> 01:23:05,599
Speaker 1: And that devil.

1354
01:23:06,640 --> 01:23:09,320
Speaker 3: But maybe I'm just overthinking it.

1355
01:23:09,680 --> 01:23:11,720
Speaker 4: But uh, I don't want to. I don't know. I

1356
01:23:11,760 --> 01:23:15,200
Speaker 4: don't want to feel like that's the general way that

1357
01:23:15,400 --> 01:23:17,960
Speaker 4: or like the thesis of the movie. But I think

1358
01:23:18,040 --> 01:23:20,280
Speaker 4: it is like the what if of the movie, Like

1359
01:23:20,360 --> 01:23:23,360
Speaker 4: not that like mental illness and the devil are the same,

1360
01:23:23,400 --> 01:23:26,000
Speaker 4: but like what if they were? And that's like a

1361
01:23:26,040 --> 01:23:28,200
Speaker 4: weird place to land sometimes, right.

1362
01:23:28,439 --> 01:23:31,320
Speaker 3: I also think I'm influenced by something that we bring

1363
01:23:31,400 --> 01:23:34,519
Speaker 3: up on the podcast a lot, which is that early

1364
01:23:34,560 --> 01:23:39,400
Speaker 3: scene in Midsommar where there's a character who is explicitly

1365
01:23:39,439 --> 01:23:43,040
Speaker 3: stated to have bipolar and then she murders her whole

1366
01:23:43,040 --> 01:23:47,799
Speaker 3: family as if her bipolar drove her to murder.

1367
01:23:48,240 --> 01:23:49,760
Speaker 1: I was just I was just about to bring that

1368
01:23:49,840 --> 01:23:53,160
Speaker 1: up where that still is always gonna bother me more

1369
01:23:53,280 --> 01:23:57,439
Speaker 1: because Midsommar is not a supernatural movie. It's a cult movie.

1370
01:23:57,720 --> 01:24:00,519
Speaker 1: Like these are both cult movies, but Hereditary is also

1371
01:24:00,560 --> 01:24:04,880
Speaker 1: a supernatural movie. Midsummer is explicitly like in that world,

1372
01:24:05,080 --> 01:24:07,920
Speaker 1: we do not see magic shit happen. Any of the

1373
01:24:08,040 --> 01:24:12,000
Speaker 1: visions that happen in that movie are brought up by drugs.

1374
01:24:12,439 --> 01:24:16,960
Speaker 1: So like, I'll always be and I love Midsummar, but

1375
01:24:17,120 --> 01:24:20,080
Speaker 1: like I will always be bothered by him. That feels

1376
01:24:20,080 --> 01:24:24,200
Speaker 1: like the worst like explicit conflation of she is this

1377
01:24:24,439 --> 01:24:28,760
Speaker 1: and therefore this happened where at very least, and I

1378
01:24:28,800 --> 01:24:31,800
Speaker 1: still don't like how like it doesn't quite connect with

1379
01:24:31,840 --> 01:24:35,679
Speaker 1: me how the the two are connected. But at least

1380
01:24:35,720 --> 01:24:38,240
Speaker 1: it feels like there's the possibility of a what if.

1381
01:24:38,520 --> 01:24:42,480
Speaker 1: But in Midsummer there's it's just like text like bipolar

1382
01:24:42,520 --> 01:24:44,440
Speaker 1: people kill their families.

1383
01:24:44,640 --> 01:24:48,480
Speaker 4: You're just like in general, I like I like Hereditary

1384
01:24:48,520 --> 01:24:52,480
Speaker 4: better than mits Sommer because of I think the supernatural.

1385
01:24:52,920 --> 01:24:55,439
Speaker 4: Oh and I think it was just scarier period.

1386
01:24:55,640 --> 01:24:59,200
Speaker 1: It is scarier. But they both love rotting aheads and

1387
01:24:59,280 --> 01:25:03,639
Speaker 1: lighting people fire. He is like it's his strange addiction

1388
01:25:05,080 --> 01:25:08,200
Speaker 1: is doing that. But yeah, I don't know, I at

1389
01:25:08,280 --> 01:25:11,840
Speaker 1: least I don't know. While I find the supernatural stuff frustrating,

1390
01:25:11,880 --> 01:25:17,520
Speaker 1: sometimes it does temper some of the stuff that. Yeah,

1391
01:25:17,640 --> 01:25:20,439
Speaker 1: I don't think ari Astor like, I don't think enough

1392
01:25:20,479 --> 01:25:21,880
Speaker 1: bad things have happened to him.

1393
01:25:23,720 --> 01:25:27,400
Speaker 4: I mean, we don't have to talk about his short films.

1394
01:25:28,040 --> 01:25:30,240
Speaker 3: I couldn't. I haven't seen them.

1395
01:25:30,520 --> 01:25:33,040
Speaker 4: Yeah I've seen, I just know about them. I shan't

1396
01:25:33,080 --> 01:25:33,840
Speaker 4: be seeing.

1397
01:25:34,520 --> 01:25:37,640
Speaker 1: I saw, I saw the Big One, and yeah, No,

1398
01:25:37,840 --> 01:25:40,760
Speaker 1: I just think that ari Astor is like I should

1399
01:25:40,960 --> 01:25:47,920
Speaker 1: in general, keep specific mental illnesses out of his mouth

1400
01:25:48,040 --> 01:25:52,160
Speaker 1: and his writing until we understand why he's doing it,

1401
01:25:52,200 --> 01:25:58,280
Speaker 1: because sometimes there does feel like a shock jockey, you know,

1402
01:25:58,320 --> 01:26:01,400
Speaker 1: which feels weird to say of an like an indeed

1403
01:26:01,920 --> 01:26:04,920
Speaker 1: horror director. But it does sometimes feel like, what's the

1404
01:26:04,920 --> 01:26:07,360
Speaker 1: most fucked up thing I could present in a way

1405
01:26:07,400 --> 01:26:11,479
Speaker 1: that you could still present something really really really fucked

1406
01:26:11,560 --> 01:26:14,280
Speaker 1: up and not be like bipolar made her do it,

1407
01:26:14,439 --> 01:26:18,759
Speaker 1: you know, or I don't know. In Hereditary it feels

1408
01:26:18,760 --> 01:26:22,320
Speaker 1: like there's a little bit more purpose, or at least

1409
01:26:22,320 --> 01:26:26,120
Speaker 1: an argument for purpose behind it. But it's this first movie.

1410
01:26:26,640 --> 01:26:28,920
Speaker 1: There's stuff that doesn't quite work.

1411
01:26:29,280 --> 01:26:34,000
Speaker 4: No, I think it succeeds for me on like a

1412
01:26:34,040 --> 01:26:38,679
Speaker 4: horror level. The other stuff I think is good, better

1413
01:26:38,760 --> 01:26:42,120
Speaker 4: than a lot of horror movies and like more thoughtful

1414
01:26:42,479 --> 01:26:44,600
Speaker 4: and like the character the acting is really good. I

1415
01:26:44,640 --> 01:26:47,880
Speaker 4: think really helps in the character work is interesting. But

1416
01:26:48,080 --> 01:26:51,960
Speaker 4: why I love this movie is like really more because

1417
01:26:52,800 --> 01:26:56,519
Speaker 4: the scares and the tension and it is just such

1418
01:26:56,560 --> 01:26:57,920
Speaker 4: an effective horror movie.

1419
01:26:58,160 --> 01:27:00,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, truly, Yes, it's so.

1420
01:27:00,640 --> 01:27:03,240
Speaker 1: I mean it's like impossible not to get completely sucked in,

1421
01:27:03,560 --> 01:27:08,280
Speaker 1: Like it's there's no movie I've seen that. I've seen

1422
01:27:08,320 --> 01:27:11,840
Speaker 1: movies that explore the same themes, but it's like uniquely

1423
01:27:13,040 --> 01:27:17,400
Speaker 1: like punishing and engrossing. And the performance, like there's not

1424
01:27:17,439 --> 01:27:21,120
Speaker 1: a bad performance in it. Everyone is like going at

1425
01:27:21,120 --> 01:27:23,679
Speaker 1: a ten the entire time. It's it's awesome.

1426
01:27:24,520 --> 01:27:28,360
Speaker 4: And the soundtrack, oh does work. I love to this

1427
01:27:28,400 --> 01:27:30,919
Speaker 4: is some of my favorite writing music is the soundtrack

1428
01:27:30,960 --> 01:27:31,200
Speaker 4: for this.

1429
01:27:31,280 --> 01:27:35,240
Speaker 1: It's so and I mean Poloma just like speaking to like,

1430
01:27:35,439 --> 01:27:38,840
Speaker 1: I love your books so much, and it feels like

1431
01:27:39,080 --> 01:27:44,280
Speaker 1: you are able to work in the supernatural into family

1432
01:27:44,320 --> 01:27:47,760
Speaker 1: dynamics and into friendship dynamics like so uniquely, but I

1433
01:27:47,800 --> 01:27:52,080
Speaker 1: think you do it better than mister Astor. But also

1434
01:27:52,160 --> 01:27:56,200
Speaker 1: he's great at it. But I just if anyone listening

1435
01:27:56,280 --> 01:27:59,360
Speaker 1: has not yet read Paloma's work, I think it does

1436
01:27:59,400 --> 01:28:01,200
Speaker 1: with this movie does better.

1437
01:28:01,800 --> 01:28:05,320
Speaker 4: Oh thank you, it's really it's really nice of you

1438
01:28:05,400 --> 01:28:07,680
Speaker 4: to say it's true.

1439
01:28:08,600 --> 01:28:12,240
Speaker 3: Going back to the conversation about gender, so when ari

1440
01:28:12,320 --> 01:28:15,599
Speaker 3: Astor was asked in an interview with Variety, is there

1441
01:28:15,600 --> 01:28:18,680
Speaker 3: ever a Charlie or is she paym on from the

1442
01:28:18,680 --> 01:28:23,160
Speaker 3: moment she's born? Ari Astor responds, from the moment she's born.

1443
01:28:23,400 --> 01:28:26,280
Speaker 3: I mean, there's a girl that was displaced, but she

1444
01:28:26,479 --> 01:28:29,360
Speaker 3: was displaced from the very beginning. So we have this

1445
01:28:29,479 --> 01:28:33,320
Speaker 3: male demon that inhabits the body of someone who was

1446
01:28:33,560 --> 01:28:37,439
Speaker 3: assigned female at birth. And some writers have discussed a

1447
01:28:37,600 --> 01:28:40,760
Speaker 3: trans masque read of this movie. I want to pull

1448
01:28:40,800 --> 01:28:44,719
Speaker 3: from a piece in the publication Them by Sasha Geffen

1449
01:28:45,000 --> 01:28:49,000
Speaker 3: entitled trans Horror Stories and Society's Fear of the trans

1450
01:28:49,000 --> 01:28:53,000
Speaker 3: Masculine Body. What the film Hereditary reveals about society's moral

1451
01:28:53,040 --> 01:28:57,880
Speaker 3: panic surrounding trans masculine people. This piece points out that

1452
01:28:58,200 --> 01:29:02,360
Speaker 3: most trans horror story to date have stoked a fear

1453
01:29:02,560 --> 01:29:06,000
Speaker 3: in the trans feminine movies like you know, Silence of

1454
01:29:06,000 --> 01:29:10,240
Speaker 3: the Lambs and Psycho, but Sasha Geffin points out that

1455
01:29:10,360 --> 01:29:13,960
Speaker 3: in general, in horror movies, a prevalent trope is the

1456
01:29:14,200 --> 01:29:19,880
Speaker 3: idea of quote, one gender swirled up into another creates

1457
01:29:19,960 --> 01:29:24,120
Speaker 3: a monster. The piece goes on to say, quote. Millie

1458
01:29:24,160 --> 01:29:27,800
Speaker 3: Shapiro's performance as Charlie abused the character with a deep

1459
01:29:27,880 --> 01:29:31,920
Speaker 3: pathos and clearly conveys that she feels alienated from her body.

1460
01:29:32,400 --> 01:29:35,719
Speaker 3: During a phone interview, film critic Caden Mark Gardner tells

1461
01:29:35,760 --> 01:29:39,679
Speaker 3: me he recognized his own childhood gender dysphoria in Charlie's

1462
01:29:39,680 --> 01:29:43,400
Speaker 3: on screen presence. This is now a quote from Caiden

1463
01:29:43,439 --> 01:29:46,160
Speaker 3: Mark Gardner. When I was growing up, even though I

1464
01:29:46,200 --> 01:29:49,280
Speaker 3: didn't realize I was going through gender dysphoria, I was

1465
01:29:49,320 --> 01:29:51,840
Speaker 3: in these baggy hoodies and genes a lot of the time,

1466
01:29:52,160 --> 01:29:55,360
Speaker 3: sort of the way Charlie was dressing, he says. Together

1467
01:29:55,439 --> 01:29:58,720
Speaker 3: with film critic Willow maclay, he publishes Body Talk, a

1468
01:29:58,800 --> 01:30:02,880
Speaker 3: series of conversation about films that speak implicitly or explicitly

1469
01:30:03,120 --> 01:30:06,880
Speaker 3: to the trans experience. Many of these films are horror movies,

1470
01:30:07,120 --> 01:30:10,160
Speaker 3: as horror is one of the only genres where the

1471
01:30:10,200 --> 01:30:14,439
Speaker 3: sanctity of the body is regularly disrupted, where the distress

1472
01:30:14,479 --> 01:30:19,480
Speaker 3: of something akin to gender dysphoria is expressed legibly on screen.

1473
01:30:19,720 --> 01:30:23,560
Speaker 3: Hereditaries transition allegory involves not only the violent death of

1474
01:30:23,600 --> 01:30:27,280
Speaker 3: a girl, but also the torture and eventual evacuation of

1475
01:30:27,439 --> 01:30:32,640
Speaker 3: a CIS male body. Parentheses Peter that Charlie's transition requires

1476
01:30:32,680 --> 01:30:36,240
Speaker 3: so much physical violence speaks to a lingering anxiety among

1477
01:30:36,400 --> 01:30:39,880
Speaker 3: sis people, that transition is at best a form of

1478
01:30:39,960 --> 01:30:44,360
Speaker 3: mutilation and at worst a kind of death, a sloughing

1479
01:30:44,520 --> 01:30:49,120
Speaker 3: of one body in exchange for a new, different one.

1480
01:30:49,560 --> 01:30:51,640
Speaker 3: The piece goes on, I think the whole thing is

1481
01:30:51,800 --> 01:30:54,439
Speaker 3: worth a read. We will link it in the description,

1482
01:30:54,560 --> 01:30:57,600
Speaker 3: But I thought this was just a really interesting interpretation

1483
01:30:57,880 --> 01:31:01,360
Speaker 3: of that aspect of the movie.

1484
01:31:01,840 --> 01:31:02,040
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1485
01:31:02,120 --> 01:31:05,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I do feel like it's like another demonstration of

1486
01:31:05,120 --> 01:31:11,200
Speaker 1: how open to interpretation kind of this story remains. And

1487
01:31:11,360 --> 01:31:13,000
Speaker 1: I feel like that's been a conversation around a lot

1488
01:31:13,000 --> 01:31:16,360
Speaker 1: of horror movies that we've covered, and how many of

1489
01:31:16,400 --> 01:31:21,519
Speaker 1: the horror movies we've covered are made by ariastrotypes of

1490
01:31:22,000 --> 01:31:25,160
Speaker 1: you know, like white GUYO Tours. And it doesn't make

1491
01:31:25,200 --> 01:31:28,880
Speaker 1: the movie less good or less impactful, but it does

1492
01:31:29,520 --> 01:31:32,040
Speaker 1: make it that guy again.

1493
01:31:32,160 --> 01:31:35,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, Yeah, I feel like I feel this. A lot

1494
01:31:35,240 --> 01:31:38,880
Speaker 4: of horror is like women centric and then also made

1495
01:31:38,920 --> 01:31:42,880
Speaker 4: by men. Yes, and it is so like steeped in

1496
01:31:42,920 --> 01:31:49,200
Speaker 4: this like fear of womanhood and like things that like

1497
01:31:49,479 --> 01:31:51,760
Speaker 4: in this movie, like women are in this, like they're

1498
01:31:51,880 --> 01:31:54,280
Speaker 4: part of the secret, and like men are kind of

1499
01:31:54,280 --> 01:31:58,600
Speaker 4: inert and like I feel like that is present in

1500
01:31:58,680 --> 01:32:02,120
Speaker 4: this movie and in a lot of movie that puberty, pregnancy.

1501
01:32:02,360 --> 01:32:04,200
Speaker 4: It's like all of these things that happen to women

1502
01:32:04,240 --> 01:32:10,400
Speaker 4: and that women experience are horrific and like unfathomable to

1503
01:32:10,560 --> 01:32:12,479
Speaker 4: the men who are creating these pieces.

1504
01:32:12,560 --> 01:32:16,800
Speaker 3: It's the topic of so many horror movies the class.

1505
01:32:17,320 --> 01:32:19,400
Speaker 4: And in this one, it's motherhood in a way.

1506
01:32:20,680 --> 01:32:23,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, we didn't quite get into this, but yeah, the

1507
01:32:23,439 --> 01:32:26,720
Speaker 1: idea of like, I don't know, the idea that like

1508
01:32:26,760 --> 01:32:30,040
Speaker 1: this is a mother who is an artist and yet

1509
01:32:30,360 --> 01:32:33,639
Speaker 1: her like her art is conflated so much with her

1510
01:32:33,640 --> 01:32:37,640
Speaker 1: family life, and like her dysregulation in some way is

1511
01:32:37,680 --> 01:32:40,360
Speaker 1: connected to her art. I don't know. I just say

1512
01:32:40,400 --> 01:32:43,720
Speaker 1: there's so many different entry points to this movie, to

1513
01:32:43,760 --> 01:32:47,439
Speaker 1: the point where I truly don't know what ari Astor

1514
01:32:47,720 --> 01:32:49,880
Speaker 1: is trying to say. I just know that the viewing

1515
01:32:49,960 --> 01:32:54,080
Speaker 1: of this movie feels very individual where I've always come

1516
01:32:54,120 --> 01:32:56,880
Speaker 1: at it of like my read of the movie has

1517
01:32:57,240 --> 01:33:00,320
Speaker 1: always been like, women are far more powerful than people

1518
01:33:00,320 --> 01:33:03,880
Speaker 1: give them credit for. Mothers are far more powerful than

1519
01:33:03,920 --> 01:33:07,519
Speaker 1: people give them credit for. But because of all of

1520
01:33:07,520 --> 01:33:11,400
Speaker 1: this various nagging, like that kind of all goes unseen

1521
01:33:12,080 --> 01:33:15,559
Speaker 1: and that all you know compounds to what I think

1522
01:33:15,640 --> 01:33:19,680
Speaker 1: is kind of like a dissatisfying conclusion. But like what

1523
01:33:19,720 --> 01:33:21,840
Speaker 1: you just said, ploment is just as valid to read

1524
01:33:21,920 --> 01:33:26,920
Speaker 1: of like the fear of like what generations of women

1525
01:33:26,960 --> 01:33:31,400
Speaker 1: are doing, and an anxiety around women and being kind

1526
01:33:31,439 --> 01:33:36,040
Speaker 1: of subjugated and defeated by them in like Steve's case.

1527
01:33:36,120 --> 01:33:38,639
Speaker 1: And I don't know, there's just like so many inns

1528
01:33:38,800 --> 01:33:42,439
Speaker 1: to just seeing this movie, and I like that there's

1529
01:33:42,439 --> 01:33:46,040
Speaker 1: not a definitive one, and that's probably why people still

1530
01:33:46,080 --> 01:33:47,240
Speaker 1: love it so much.

1531
01:33:47,800 --> 01:33:50,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, And that's part of why I also really like

1532
01:33:50,479 --> 01:33:54,000
Speaker 4: this movie is the is that there are so many

1533
01:33:54,040 --> 01:33:58,960
Speaker 4: interpretations and so many things being represented and played with

1534
01:33:59,320 --> 01:34:02,960
Speaker 4: throughout the movie. And it is not like this like

1535
01:34:03,080 --> 01:34:07,120
Speaker 4: one to one metaphor for anything in particular, and that's

1536
01:34:07,120 --> 01:34:10,360
Speaker 4: like what is so what makes it such good horror

1537
01:34:10,520 --> 01:34:13,880
Speaker 4: is that you can find something to fear because there

1538
01:34:13,920 --> 01:34:18,280
Speaker 4: are so many things, as you said, entry points, and

1539
01:34:18,320 --> 01:34:20,280
Speaker 4: that's why I think it hits for so many people.

1540
01:34:20,560 --> 01:34:23,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think there is also something to be said

1541
01:34:23,560 --> 01:34:28,479
Speaker 3: for the fact that we know Annie's character far better

1542
01:34:28,600 --> 01:34:30,160
Speaker 3: than we know her husband.

1543
01:34:30,600 --> 01:34:33,760
Speaker 1: We know next to nothing about him other than he's struggling.

1544
01:34:34,000 --> 01:34:37,000
Speaker 3: He's struggling and he's doing his best. But yeah, we

1545
01:34:37,040 --> 01:34:41,920
Speaker 3: see Annie working very often. We see Steve at work

1546
01:34:42,040 --> 01:34:44,200
Speaker 3: one time, but we don't know what he does and

1547
01:34:44,280 --> 01:34:48,599
Speaker 3: it's not relevant to anything. He's sidelined. Steve is for

1548
01:34:49,360 --> 01:34:53,800
Speaker 3: many chunks of the movie, and that's feminism.

1549
01:34:54,720 --> 01:34:57,720
Speaker 1: Well, it's like at least attempting to explore or like

1550
01:34:57,840 --> 01:35:00,519
Speaker 1: has you I don't know, I don't know. I feel

1551
01:35:00,560 --> 01:35:03,679
Speaker 1: like this movie is weirdly a step forward. But speaking

1552
01:35:03,640 --> 01:35:05,559
Speaker 1: to what you were saying a little earlier, Plobo, like,

1553
01:35:05,640 --> 01:35:10,280
Speaker 1: I always get hyper agitated when you know, regardless of

1554
01:35:10,280 --> 01:35:13,519
Speaker 1: how much I like dislike whatever, good, bad, and different

1555
01:35:13,520 --> 01:35:17,760
Speaker 1: in the movie when a like Oteurs burst onto the

1556
01:35:17,760 --> 01:35:21,760
Speaker 1: scene is a guy centering a woman's experience and being

1557
01:35:21,800 --> 01:35:24,559
Speaker 1: like I wrote this, I got it, I figured it out,

1558
01:35:24,800 --> 01:35:28,040
Speaker 1: and like, often it's horrible, Often it's awesome, But I

1559
01:35:28,120 --> 01:35:31,800
Speaker 1: just like I get into like a looping thing of like,

1560
01:35:31,840 --> 01:35:35,479
Speaker 1: but they'll always get another chance. It doesn't matter if

1561
01:35:35,479 --> 01:35:39,920
Speaker 1: they nail it or not. And like, do people ultimately care?

1562
01:35:41,120 --> 01:35:45,840
Speaker 1: Why is Ari Aster centering women in his piece? I

1563
01:35:45,880 --> 01:35:48,920
Speaker 1: don't need the answer, but sometimes I just get conspiratorial

1564
01:35:49,000 --> 01:35:51,120
Speaker 1: and I'm just like it felt like, especially in the

1565
01:35:51,200 --> 01:35:54,920
Speaker 1: late twenty tens, a lot of men And you can't

1566
01:35:54,920 --> 01:35:57,759
Speaker 1: say this for Astor because this is his first feature,

1567
01:35:58,640 --> 01:36:00,960
Speaker 1: but in this time there are a lot of men

1568
01:36:00,960 --> 01:36:04,840
Speaker 1: who were suddenly centering women in their pieces to be like,

1569
01:36:05,080 --> 01:36:08,479
Speaker 1: buh the no no no no, Like in disregard everything

1570
01:36:08,520 --> 01:36:12,080
Speaker 1: I said before, I actually have always cared about women's

1571
01:36:12,080 --> 01:36:14,599
Speaker 1: internal lives, and like I just took me til twenty

1572
01:36:14,680 --> 01:36:16,600
Speaker 1: nineteen to like do it, and then you watch it

1573
01:36:16,640 --> 01:36:19,320
Speaker 1: and you're like, well, this fucking sucks, and like, so

1574
01:36:19,600 --> 01:36:21,840
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think that I also bring an

1575
01:36:21,880 --> 01:36:24,320
Speaker 1: inherent anger to Yeah.

1576
01:36:24,360 --> 01:36:29,120
Speaker 4: I also feel like it's just like maybe semi unrelated

1577
01:36:29,240 --> 01:36:34,040
Speaker 4: pang about like how difficult it is to be a

1578
01:36:34,320 --> 01:36:39,479
Speaker 4: woman doing horror. It's so like male dominated, and yet

1579
01:36:39,520 --> 01:36:44,240
Speaker 4: the stories are all so frequently about women, and so

1580
01:36:44,880 --> 01:36:47,200
Speaker 4: I feel a bit of resentment about that.

1581
01:36:47,800 --> 01:36:52,519
Speaker 3: I have several theories as to why that is why

1582
01:36:52,800 --> 01:36:58,320
Speaker 3: men fixate on like women in horror stories because they're

1583
01:36:58,320 --> 01:36:59,160
Speaker 3: afraid of them.

1584
01:36:59,640 --> 01:37:03,240
Speaker 4: Well, they're scared of women.

1585
01:37:03,680 --> 01:37:09,519
Speaker 3: Let women's bodies do and I'm speaking like cis normatively here,

1586
01:37:09,760 --> 01:37:15,000
Speaker 3: I realize that. But as far as like pregnancy and periods.

1587
01:37:14,800 --> 01:37:18,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, like pussy monsters, have we covered on this fucking shell.

1588
01:37:18,080 --> 01:37:21,640
Speaker 1: They're like the scariest in the world, and it's like

1589
01:37:21,720 --> 01:37:22,680
Speaker 1: a vagina.

1590
01:37:22,800 --> 01:37:27,280
Speaker 3: So that's one thing. I also just think that because

1591
01:37:27,320 --> 01:37:32,920
Speaker 3: men tend to see women as weak and jostile and fragile,

1592
01:37:33,160 --> 01:37:34,960
Speaker 3: and we need to be protected and we need to

1593
01:37:34,960 --> 01:37:39,960
Speaker 3: be We're so delicate that the things that happen in

1594
01:37:40,080 --> 01:37:43,080
Speaker 3: horror movies, you know, the horrific imagery and and the

1595
01:37:43,120 --> 01:37:49,280
Speaker 3: stalking and the chasing and the killers stabbing, it's I think,

1596
01:37:49,320 --> 01:37:51,640
Speaker 3: perceived to be more horrific when those things happen to

1597
01:37:51,760 --> 01:37:55,479
Speaker 3: women than if, oh, if these things were happening to men, Oh,

1598
01:37:55,520 --> 01:37:59,719
Speaker 3: they'd be able to fight off the stabby killer or whatever.

1599
01:37:59,760 --> 01:38:02,400
Speaker 3: I think I think that part of the horror of

1600
01:38:02,400 --> 01:38:05,759
Speaker 3: so many horror movies is this is happening to a woman,

1601
01:38:06,160 --> 01:38:08,400
Speaker 3: and doesn't that make it so much scarier?

1602
01:38:08,960 --> 01:38:10,720
Speaker 1: Right, I agree, but I also like, I don't think

1603
01:38:10,720 --> 01:38:14,400
Speaker 1: that that's really what are a astro, but it's all

1604
01:38:14,439 --> 01:38:17,760
Speaker 1: of that to this movie too, like it's impossible not to.

1605
01:38:18,280 --> 01:38:22,400
Speaker 4: And also, like with Possession, like so much possession movies

1606
01:38:22,479 --> 01:38:27,160
Speaker 4: are about possessing women or children because of the corruption

1607
01:38:27,280 --> 01:38:30,760
Speaker 4: of innocence, and like, even if like this isn't the

1608
01:38:30,800 --> 01:38:33,679
Speaker 4: thing that our astor like went to the desk thinking about.

1609
01:38:33,880 --> 01:38:37,880
Speaker 4: When you write in genre, you bring everything to the

1610
01:38:37,880 --> 01:38:42,120
Speaker 4: table because like inherent in doing genre is you have

1611
01:38:42,160 --> 01:38:44,760
Speaker 4: to interact with everything that's been done before because of

1612
01:38:45,280 --> 01:38:48,400
Speaker 4: tropes and trends and things like that. So you know

1613
01:38:48,600 --> 01:38:50,719
Speaker 4: it is worth talking about for sure.

1614
01:38:51,360 --> 01:38:57,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Men be bringing their biases too.

1615
01:38:57,560 --> 01:38:59,479
Speaker 1: I mean we are too, we just don't get to

1616
01:38:59,520 --> 01:39:01,800
Speaker 1: do it as.

1617
01:39:01,240 --> 01:39:06,080
Speaker 4: And women write fantastic horror, so I mean and there

1618
01:39:06,120 --> 01:39:10,040
Speaker 4: are Again, It's like, even since twenty eighteen, I feel

1619
01:39:10,040 --> 01:39:12,320
Speaker 4: like there has been some shift in terms of like

1620
01:39:12,720 --> 01:39:15,600
Speaker 4: who gets to tell mainstream horror stories.

1621
01:39:15,439 --> 01:39:19,760
Speaker 1: But always room for more movement because I was, yeah,

1622
01:39:19,800 --> 01:39:23,400
Speaker 1: as I was getting all worked up talking to my

1623
01:39:23,520 --> 01:39:29,520
Speaker 1: boyfriend about like why first time directors centering women regardless

1624
01:39:29,520 --> 01:39:32,120
Speaker 1: of genre, even when I like the movies. I'm still

1625
01:39:32,120 --> 01:39:35,600
Speaker 1: like slightly side eyeing it, which is not fair of me,

1626
01:39:36,160 --> 01:39:40,280
Speaker 1: but is how I feel. But in any case, you know,

1627
01:39:40,360 --> 01:39:43,080
Speaker 1: the real kind of stress test of like, is this

1628
01:39:43,360 --> 01:39:47,280
Speaker 1: genre being meaningfully diversified? Isn't like who gets to make

1629
01:39:47,280 --> 01:39:50,280
Speaker 1: one movie, but who gets to make three? Because I

1630
01:39:50,280 --> 01:39:53,000
Speaker 1: think in the last you know, five, like half decade,

1631
01:39:53,000 --> 01:39:55,760
Speaker 1: we've seen a lot of people get to make their

1632
01:39:55,800 --> 01:39:58,720
Speaker 1: first movie, but we have not seen a lot of

1633
01:39:58,720 --> 01:40:01,960
Speaker 1: people get to make their second movie. And so I

1634
01:40:02,000 --> 01:40:05,240
Speaker 1: don't know. I feel like the landscape for especially genre

1635
01:40:05,280 --> 01:40:09,000
Speaker 1: film is shifting, but it's a lot of people making

1636
01:40:09,040 --> 01:40:11,880
Speaker 1: their first movie. I want to see a more diverse

1637
01:40:11,920 --> 01:40:15,000
Speaker 1: group of directors make their third and fourth movies and

1638
01:40:15,160 --> 01:40:20,559
Speaker 1: like have the same sort of freedom to explore that

1639
01:40:21,240 --> 01:40:24,320
Speaker 1: the ari Astors of the world do. We're getting off topic,

1640
01:40:24,520 --> 01:40:25,360
Speaker 1: but I.

1641
01:40:25,320 --> 01:40:30,160
Speaker 4: Mean, yeah, I will say ari Astor and also Jordan Peel.

1642
01:40:30,560 --> 01:40:35,280
Speaker 4: I think they made like two great horror movies and

1643
01:40:35,360 --> 01:40:38,680
Speaker 4: then we're like, but I'm not a horror director, and

1644
01:40:38,720 --> 01:40:42,000
Speaker 4: then made like a third movie that's not horror and

1645
01:40:42,400 --> 01:40:44,160
Speaker 4: I haven't seen bos Afraid, but they might be like

1646
01:40:44,200 --> 01:40:48,360
Speaker 4: good movies. But I want like people to commit to

1647
01:40:48,520 --> 01:40:51,120
Speaker 4: the genre and keep making scary movies.

1648
01:40:51,200 --> 01:40:54,559
Speaker 1: I don't know, and that's why I will be seeing

1649
01:40:54,680 --> 01:40:57,240
Speaker 1: every m Night Shyamalan movie for the rest of my life.

1650
01:40:57,280 --> 01:41:00,680
Speaker 1: And that's that is my sacred voalve. I mean, I

1651
01:41:00,680 --> 01:41:03,639
Speaker 1: guess sometimes what he does is more thrillers, but still

1652
01:41:04,240 --> 01:41:05,000
Speaker 1: they're cousins.

1653
01:41:05,520 --> 01:41:06,240
Speaker 3: Is close enough.

1654
01:41:06,360 --> 01:41:09,120
Speaker 1: I'm really excited for the new m Night Chamblin movie.

1655
01:41:09,240 --> 01:41:13,880
Speaker 4: I'm always excited for the It's like, you know, even

1656
01:41:13,920 --> 01:41:17,639
Speaker 4: if they're not good, they're great, or even if they're

1657
01:41:17,640 --> 01:41:18,320
Speaker 4: not great, they're good.

1658
01:41:19,000 --> 01:41:22,800
Speaker 1: They're always like confident, big swings. They're firmly comfortable in

1659
01:41:22,840 --> 01:41:26,479
Speaker 1: the genre they're in, and it's just like a riot.

1660
01:41:27,240 --> 01:41:30,559
Speaker 1: It's a riot. Oh. The first movie I saw after

1661
01:41:30,600 --> 01:41:35,360
Speaker 1: I got the vaccine for COVID was Old, and I

1662
01:41:35,400 --> 01:41:40,120
Speaker 1: was hoping you'd say, Old, what an amazing return to

1663
01:41:40,200 --> 01:41:43,720
Speaker 1: the movies, What an amazing They're just high concert? What's

1664
01:41:43,760 --> 01:41:44,120
Speaker 1: the new one?

1665
01:41:44,200 --> 01:41:45,880
Speaker 3: The new one is like, oh, I just saw a

1666
01:41:45,880 --> 01:41:47,360
Speaker 3: trailer for it.

1667
01:41:47,360 --> 01:41:50,560
Speaker 1: It looks awesome. It's like there's a they're at like

1668
01:41:50,600 --> 01:41:54,280
Speaker 1: a stadium concert and there's a serial killer, and then

1669
01:41:54,320 --> 01:41:57,400
Speaker 1: you find out it's the protagonist that's the serial killer.

1670
01:41:57,600 --> 01:42:02,080
Speaker 1: It's because mister Shimelan loves his twists.

1671
01:42:02,120 --> 01:42:03,160
Speaker 3: What's his name, Josh?

1672
01:42:04,560 --> 01:42:05,519
Speaker 1: I can't wait.

1673
01:42:05,800 --> 01:42:07,400
Speaker 3: Who's the Josh in the movie?

1674
01:42:08,479 --> 01:42:10,479
Speaker 1: I don't know. I know the Josh of which you speak.

1675
01:42:11,720 --> 01:42:12,679
Speaker 3: Yes, it's Josh Hartne.

1676
01:42:12,880 --> 01:42:16,639
Speaker 1: Yes. Yeah, I guess the moral of our Hereditary episode

1677
01:42:16,680 --> 01:42:21,280
Speaker 1: is go see Trap in theaters on August second. I

1678
01:42:21,320 --> 01:42:25,000
Speaker 1: am genuinely a trap. Thirty thousand fans, three hundred cops,

1679
01:42:25,000 --> 01:42:29,200
Speaker 1: one serial killer, no escape. Yeah, I'm going. Wow, I'm going.

1680
01:42:29,720 --> 01:42:32,360
Speaker 3: Does anyone have anything else they'd like to say about

1681
01:42:32,479 --> 01:42:33,640
Speaker 3: the movie Hereditary?

1682
01:42:34,680 --> 01:42:37,200
Speaker 4: I could go on about the scary stuff for a

1683
01:42:37,240 --> 01:42:39,799
Speaker 4: long time, but I'd love to let you sleep tonight.

1684
01:42:40,080 --> 01:42:46,320
Speaker 3: So I mean, well, we'll be up late anyway watching Minions.

1685
01:42:46,360 --> 01:42:48,479
Speaker 4: So healing, healing, up late, healing?

1686
01:42:48,760 --> 01:42:51,600
Speaker 1: Yes, is there? I know that you said there's like

1687
01:42:51,640 --> 01:42:54,800
Speaker 1: a lot of technical stuff that you were impressed by

1688
01:42:54,840 --> 01:42:57,479
Speaker 1: and research. Is there anything in particular that's stuck out

1689
01:42:57,520 --> 01:42:59,559
Speaker 1: on that end because we don't really cover that stuff

1690
01:42:59,600 --> 01:43:00,479
Speaker 1: as much in the show.

1691
01:43:01,240 --> 01:43:05,479
Speaker 4: So I definitely was tracking, like I went through the

1692
01:43:05,520 --> 01:43:10,080
Speaker 4: movie and was tracking like the progression of fear with

1693
01:43:10,160 --> 01:43:14,200
Speaker 4: a two step of like uncanny and then scary, and

1694
01:43:14,320 --> 01:43:19,120
Speaker 4: just like I think it was really effective how those

1695
01:43:19,160 --> 01:43:22,439
Speaker 4: two things were balanced throughout the movie and then heightened

1696
01:43:22,800 --> 01:43:27,160
Speaker 4: to like an eleven in like the third act. Also

1697
01:43:27,439 --> 01:43:34,160
Speaker 4: the way that he played with the viewer's anxiety around

1698
01:43:34,240 --> 01:43:38,400
Speaker 4: what was going on on screen and then use the

1699
01:43:38,439 --> 01:43:43,840
Speaker 4: momentum of that anxiety to subvert, like to give a

1700
01:43:43,880 --> 01:43:47,680
Speaker 4: new twist. Like an example would be when Peter is

1701
01:43:47,680 --> 01:43:50,720
Speaker 4: going walking through the room, as we talked about, and

1702
01:43:50,760 --> 01:43:54,760
Speaker 4: then Tony's in the corner, and then you think that

1703
01:43:54,880 --> 01:43:58,679
Speaker 4: he's going to interact with her, but then it turns

1704
01:43:58,680 --> 01:44:01,360
Speaker 4: and it's something completely different, and that happened with the

1705
01:44:02,080 --> 01:44:06,960
Speaker 4: head lobbing off as well. And then also in the attic,

1706
01:44:07,439 --> 01:44:09,360
Speaker 4: when you know that the body is there and you're

1707
01:44:09,400 --> 01:44:12,040
Speaker 4: expecting the thing for him to encounter to be the body,

1708
01:44:12,479 --> 01:44:16,080
Speaker 4: and you're bracing yourself for the headless, dead body, but

1709
01:44:16,120 --> 01:44:20,720
Speaker 4: he turns around it's something completely different and totally terrifying.

1710
01:44:20,960 --> 01:44:26,000
Speaker 4: And that just like relentless, like feeding into someone's fear

1711
01:44:26,200 --> 01:44:28,800
Speaker 4: and then using that fear as a jumping off point

1712
01:44:28,800 --> 01:44:33,800
Speaker 4: on something even scarier, I think is really great. It is.

1713
01:44:34,080 --> 01:44:36,920
Speaker 1: I feel like, yeah, like a lot of what made

1714
01:44:36,920 --> 01:44:39,479
Speaker 1: this movie work for me, especially for the first time

1715
01:44:39,520 --> 01:44:41,720
Speaker 1: but also like it is a movie that very much

1716
01:44:42,120 --> 01:44:45,599
Speaker 1: rewards on reviewing because it is like playing on what

1717
01:44:45,640 --> 01:44:48,000
Speaker 1: you expect to happen with a jump scarre. It is

1718
01:44:48,040 --> 01:44:52,520
Speaker 1: playing on like tropes and like, I don't know, it's

1719
01:44:52,560 --> 01:44:55,000
Speaker 1: like many Bechtel Cast episodes. I end by being like, well,

1720
01:44:55,040 --> 01:44:57,479
Speaker 1: I talked a lot of shit, but this movie fucking rips,

1721
01:44:58,120 --> 01:44:59,639
Speaker 1: and I will be watching it again.

1722
01:45:00,240 --> 01:45:03,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's definitely a horror fans horror movie, I think,

1723
01:45:04,760 --> 01:45:08,719
Speaker 4: because it kind of knows your psychology of having seen

1724
01:45:08,800 --> 01:45:09,799
Speaker 4: a lot of these movies.

1725
01:45:10,640 --> 01:45:11,040
Speaker 3: For sure.

1726
01:45:11,560 --> 01:45:14,439
Speaker 1: I hope that ari Astor makes more horror movies. I

1727
01:45:15,960 --> 01:45:18,080
Speaker 1: was about to say I will watch Bo's Afraid, but

1728
01:45:18,439 --> 01:45:20,360
Speaker 1: you know, I'm gonna temper that. I actually don't know

1729
01:45:20,479 --> 01:45:23,519
Speaker 1: because it looked it's so hard to like. It takes

1730
01:45:23,560 --> 01:45:26,360
Speaker 1: a movie with a very long run time to dissuade

1731
01:45:26,400 --> 01:45:29,920
Speaker 1: me from watching a movie where Patti Lapone and Nathan

1732
01:45:30,000 --> 01:45:34,360
Speaker 1: Lane play the parents. But oh yeah, I know, like

1733
01:45:34,600 --> 01:45:40,040
Speaker 1: two Broadway legends playing the parents of the psychological movie.

1734
01:45:40,080 --> 01:45:42,200
Speaker 1: But it's three hours long, So what are you gonna do?

1735
01:45:42,520 --> 01:45:44,480
Speaker 1: I don't know if I'm gonna see kinds of kindness?

1736
01:45:44,920 --> 01:45:46,519
Speaker 1: You know, it's three Hours Long.

1737
01:45:46,560 --> 01:45:47,760
Speaker 3: Didn't care for it.

1738
01:45:47,960 --> 01:45:50,839
Speaker 4: I am looking forward to like Long Legs.

1739
01:45:52,000 --> 01:45:53,800
Speaker 1: I heard it's so scary.

1740
01:45:54,160 --> 01:45:57,840
Speaker 4: I'm hoping it will be the next Hereditary for me.

1741
01:45:58,080 --> 01:46:00,240
Speaker 4: That's that's why I've been thinking about it and this

1742
01:46:00,400 --> 01:46:03,240
Speaker 4: because that movie. I went to see it in theaters

1743
01:46:03,240 --> 01:46:07,200
Speaker 4: and I was like, yes, I have been utterly frightened.

1744
01:46:07,280 --> 01:46:10,759
Speaker 4: And I've been I've been chasing that high and longing

1745
01:46:10,800 --> 01:46:13,000
Speaker 4: for it, and I want to go and see Long

1746
01:46:13,080 --> 01:46:15,559
Speaker 4: Legs and be utterly frightened. I hope all these people

1747
01:46:15,680 --> 01:46:18,160
Speaker 4: talking about how they like left the theater crying are

1748
01:46:18,200 --> 01:46:19,040
Speaker 4: not exaggerating.

1749
01:46:19,600 --> 01:46:23,719
Speaker 1: I have not seen a an Oz Perkins movie yet,

1750
01:46:24,800 --> 01:46:26,479
Speaker 1: so I am I'm really interested.

1751
01:46:26,760 --> 01:46:27,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I'll see it.

1752
01:46:27,680 --> 01:46:29,559
Speaker 1: That's the kind of nepotism I can get behind.

1753
01:46:30,520 --> 01:46:33,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I'll see it and then probably have

1754
01:46:33,360 --> 01:46:36,200
Speaker 3: just full body pains all over again.

1755
01:46:36,720 --> 01:46:37,000
Speaker 4: Yay.

1756
01:46:37,520 --> 01:46:40,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I will be saying I'm excited to see Long Legs.

1757
01:46:40,600 --> 01:46:42,520
Speaker 1: I'm excited to see Trap.

1758
01:46:43,120 --> 01:46:43,360
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1759
01:46:43,400 --> 01:46:46,479
Speaker 1: Those are the two horror horror entries I'm excited to

1760
01:46:46,520 --> 01:46:50,120
Speaker 1: see coming up. Yeah, and whenever, whenever the next Saw

1761
01:46:50,200 --> 01:46:54,040
Speaker 1: movie comes up, because that's where Caitlyn and o oh yeah,

1762
01:46:54,520 --> 01:46:59,519
Speaker 1: baby eleven that's the slasher horror franchise that Caitlin and

1763
01:46:59,560 --> 01:47:02,240
Speaker 1: I are fully on the same page about.

1764
01:47:02,280 --> 01:47:05,040
Speaker 4: Oh oh baby, Like some months ago, I watched every

1765
01:47:05,080 --> 01:47:05,920
Speaker 4: single Saw movie.

1766
01:47:06,360 --> 01:47:07,360
Speaker 3: I'm working my way through.

1767
01:47:07,520 --> 01:47:08,640
Speaker 1: What's your favorite.

1768
01:47:09,120 --> 01:47:11,080
Speaker 4: Let me tell you. When you watch every single Saw

1769
01:47:11,120 --> 01:47:13,559
Speaker 4: movie within a span of like two weeks, watching like

1770
01:47:13,640 --> 01:47:18,680
Speaker 4: one sometimes two a night, they really blur together. I think, like,

1771
01:47:19,320 --> 01:47:23,400
Speaker 4: and some are really just so bad. But I love

1772
01:47:23,439 --> 01:47:26,880
Speaker 4: the commitment to like the twist that doesn't make sense.

1773
01:47:26,920 --> 01:47:29,760
Speaker 4: The twists, it's like it's like soap opera levels. It's

1774
01:47:29,760 --> 01:47:32,879
Speaker 4: like a ton noveloped by the end of it, Like it's.

1775
01:47:32,720 --> 01:47:34,040
Speaker 3: Like you never see them coming.

1776
01:47:34,240 --> 01:47:37,240
Speaker 4: No, You're like, oh. And then the music every time

1777
01:47:37,280 --> 01:47:43,760
Speaker 4: the music is like it's like so so extra. I

1778
01:47:43,800 --> 01:47:45,240
Speaker 4: love it entirely.

1779
01:47:45,880 --> 01:47:47,000
Speaker 3: It's the best franchise.

1780
01:47:47,439 --> 01:47:50,920
Speaker 1: It really is in every I mean, you know, say

1781
01:47:50,960 --> 01:47:53,360
Speaker 1: what you will about his methods, but he does want

1782
01:47:53,400 --> 01:47:56,559
Speaker 1: to play a game, and I celebrate that.

1783
01:47:56,840 --> 01:47:59,720
Speaker 3: I mean, feminist icon Jigsaw.

1784
01:48:00,160 --> 01:48:03,639
Speaker 1: It's true, he loves his wife.

1785
01:48:05,439 --> 01:48:08,440
Speaker 3: Hereditary does pass the Bechdel.

1786
01:48:08,160 --> 01:48:10,839
Speaker 1: Test, Yeah, I mean at many.

1787
01:48:10,680 --> 01:48:16,400
Speaker 3: Points, Oh, Joan and Annie, Oh they're talking about seances. Oh,

1788
01:48:16,800 --> 01:48:23,840
Speaker 3: they're talking about grief et cetera. Annie talks to Charlie. Yeah,

1789
01:48:23,880 --> 01:48:28,200
Speaker 3: there's there's numerous passes our nipple scale, though.

1790
01:48:28,840 --> 01:48:32,520
Speaker 1: I don't know pass past.

1791
01:48:32,280 --> 01:48:34,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't think it's I don't know how to

1792
01:48:34,360 --> 01:48:37,120
Speaker 3: sign it. So a scale of zero to five nipples

1793
01:48:37,120 --> 01:48:40,080
Speaker 3: where we rate the movie, examining it through an intersectional

1794
01:48:40,120 --> 01:48:43,840
Speaker 3: feminist lens. I have no freaking idea for this movie. Again,

1795
01:48:43,880 --> 01:48:48,200
Speaker 3: my brain ceases to work for movies this scary, so

1796
01:48:48,240 --> 01:48:49,360
Speaker 3: I can't really think about them.

1797
01:48:49,840 --> 01:48:52,280
Speaker 1: I would probably if I'm making a stab at it,

1798
01:48:52,320 --> 01:48:55,080
Speaker 1: I would probably fall somewhere in the middle here, or

1799
01:48:55,600 --> 01:48:58,320
Speaker 1: maybe maybe a little on the generous side of the middle.

1800
01:48:58,760 --> 01:49:02,000
Speaker 1: I don't know. It is really tricky one. You know,

1801
01:49:02,080 --> 01:49:06,400
Speaker 1: this movie certainly centers women, but also I mean this

1802
01:49:06,520 --> 01:49:09,439
Speaker 1: specifically the case of Charlie goes out of its way

1803
01:49:09,560 --> 01:49:16,080
Speaker 1: to demonize girl for a reasons that I'm still like

1804
01:49:16,240 --> 01:49:19,479
Speaker 1: not clear on outside of in the terest of a twist.

1805
01:49:19,600 --> 01:49:23,599
Speaker 1: Why that decision was made, I don't know. I really

1806
01:49:23,640 --> 01:49:27,280
Speaker 1: don't know. IM My instinct is somewhere down the middle.

1807
01:49:27,479 --> 01:49:31,480
Speaker 1: But even that feels a little nebulous.

1808
01:49:32,080 --> 01:49:36,960
Speaker 3: It almost feels like, I mean, this is something I

1809
01:49:36,960 --> 01:49:40,479
Speaker 3: probably should have brought up earlier. But all the women

1810
01:49:40,840 --> 01:49:44,960
Speaker 3: or girls that we see on screen or that we

1811
01:49:45,439 --> 01:49:49,240
Speaker 3: know about but don't really see because they are dead,

1812
01:49:49,479 --> 01:49:54,799
Speaker 3: I e. The grandmother are like harbingers of a scary

1813
01:49:55,479 --> 01:50:00,439
Speaker 3: cult and like, you know, evil witchy types, and then

1814
01:50:00,479 --> 01:50:03,599
Speaker 3: all the men are just like, don't do they're boring?

1815
01:50:04,000 --> 01:50:06,120
Speaker 1: Well, see that I don't hate is all women are

1816
01:50:06,120 --> 01:50:08,800
Speaker 1: witches and all men are boring. Like that's a kind

1817
01:50:08,840 --> 01:50:12,759
Speaker 1: of like prescriptive thing I could get complete.

1818
01:50:13,600 --> 01:50:16,120
Speaker 3: That's one view of it. But I also think that

1819
01:50:16,200 --> 01:50:18,639
Speaker 3: there would be people who walk away from this being

1820
01:50:18,720 --> 01:50:22,400
Speaker 3: like women are evil and men are just innocent bystanders.

1821
01:50:22,560 --> 01:50:23,000
Speaker 1: Well I don't.

1822
01:50:23,240 --> 01:50:24,920
Speaker 3: I don't read it that way, but I think there

1823
01:50:24,960 --> 01:50:26,280
Speaker 3: are people who would.

1824
01:50:26,520 --> 01:50:29,400
Speaker 1: But even so, it's like, ultimately they are still serving

1825
01:50:29,439 --> 01:50:32,680
Speaker 1: the patriarchy. That's what I find more frustrating, is like

1826
01:50:33,080 --> 01:50:36,479
Speaker 1: they have a lot of agency, but still they're like, no,

1827
01:50:37,000 --> 01:50:40,439
Speaker 1: the devil is a man, the devil is a sis man,

1828
01:50:40,520 --> 01:50:42,639
Speaker 1: and we feel that that is certain.

1829
01:50:43,280 --> 01:50:45,160
Speaker 3: I don't know where's Queen payment.

1830
01:50:46,200 --> 01:50:49,160
Speaker 1: They didn't want her, we had her, they killed her.

1831
01:50:49,320 --> 01:50:49,599
Speaker 4: I know.

1832
01:50:50,520 --> 01:50:53,639
Speaker 1: So the answer is I don't fucking know. I don't know. Paulavi,

1833
01:50:53,760 --> 01:50:56,400
Speaker 1: do you do you have a feeling on this, you.

1834
01:50:56,360 --> 01:50:59,840
Speaker 4: Know, I would also like probably put it on like

1835
01:51:00,120 --> 01:51:04,880
Speaker 4: the middle to like higher middle. I don't know, it's

1836
01:51:04,880 --> 01:51:08,280
Speaker 4: hard to there's definitely a point five in there somewhere.

1837
01:51:08,960 --> 01:51:12,639
Speaker 4: Is it a three point five or is it a four? WHOA,

1838
01:51:13,160 --> 01:51:14,320
Speaker 4: I'm not sure.

1839
01:51:14,479 --> 01:51:17,080
Speaker 1: I would go I would go three maybe three pot

1840
01:51:17,120 --> 01:51:21,320
Speaker 1: because it's like there's clear intent two, Like there is

1841
01:51:21,479 --> 01:51:25,960
Speaker 1: intellectual curiosity about what women are experiencing in this book,

1842
01:51:26,000 --> 01:51:28,160
Speaker 1: which maybe is like the bars on the floor for

1843
01:51:28,240 --> 01:51:30,880
Speaker 1: a lot of that, like that's true, but this movie

1844
01:51:31,040 --> 01:51:35,040
Speaker 1: is like deeply interested in what Annie is going through.

1845
01:51:35,200 --> 01:51:40,120
Speaker 1: It is clearly like we know that Annie, well, actually

1846
01:51:40,200 --> 01:51:41,880
Speaker 1: we don't know. I feel like it's almost maybe a

1847
01:51:41,920 --> 01:51:44,240
Speaker 1: litmus test for like who are you gonna believe here?

1848
01:51:44,280 --> 01:51:50,200
Speaker 1: But like Annie is ultimately right about perceiving what is happening,

1849
01:51:50,920 --> 01:51:54,920
Speaker 1: but she is struggling with mental illness. It's not all

1850
01:51:54,920 --> 01:51:57,760
Speaker 1: like the answer is a little bit in between, but

1851
01:51:57,840 --> 01:52:01,479
Speaker 1: ultimately it's like it's not like a lot of horror

1852
01:52:01,479 --> 01:52:05,040
Speaker 1: movies I've seen have led to like it was all

1853
01:52:05,080 --> 01:52:07,360
Speaker 1: in her head and that is the tragedy of it,

1854
01:52:07,439 --> 01:52:09,880
Speaker 1: But it's not all in Nannie's head, like It's part

1855
01:52:09,920 --> 01:52:12,439
Speaker 1: of the tragedy is that people don't believe what she's saying,

1856
01:52:12,680 --> 01:52:16,160
Speaker 1: and the same is true for Charlie, even though her

1857
01:52:16,200 --> 01:52:19,519
Speaker 1: being a demon yeah kind of muddles that a little bit,

1858
01:52:19,560 --> 01:52:21,600
Speaker 1: which is why that choice never makes sense to me.

1859
01:52:21,760 --> 01:52:24,599
Speaker 1: But like it's not like the movie is disinterested in

1860
01:52:25,520 --> 01:52:28,760
Speaker 1: what she's experiencing. I just feel like the results a

1861
01:52:28,800 --> 01:52:30,160
Speaker 1: little all over the place.

1862
01:52:30,479 --> 01:52:34,519
Speaker 4: Kind of in the opposite direction of the feeling of

1863
01:52:34,560 --> 01:52:37,799
Speaker 4: being too afraid to process this. I think I enjoy

1864
01:52:38,760 --> 01:52:42,800
Speaker 4: the fears that this presents, and it's like tilting my

1865
01:52:42,880 --> 01:52:46,679
Speaker 4: bias maybe like more in favor that you know. It's

1866
01:52:46,720 --> 01:52:49,479
Speaker 4: I'm like trying to separate like what I love about

1867
01:52:49,479 --> 01:52:51,400
Speaker 4: it as a horror movie and like how I would

1868
01:52:51,439 --> 01:52:56,680
Speaker 4: assess it as from like the Bechdel cast perspective, right.

1869
01:52:57,120 --> 01:52:59,400
Speaker 1: I Mean, it's a tricky one for this show because

1870
01:52:59,439 --> 01:53:01,720
Speaker 1: I don't think this movie is trying to be overtly

1871
01:53:01,760 --> 01:53:05,240
Speaker 1: feminist or not. And that's fine, but yeah, when it

1872
01:53:05,240 --> 01:53:08,000
Speaker 1: comes down to like how are the women of this

1873
01:53:08,040 --> 01:53:10,920
Speaker 1: world and story treated? I guess for me on my

1874
01:53:11,120 --> 01:53:13,759
Speaker 1: personal like how much I enjoy it, rating gets higher

1875
01:53:14,640 --> 01:53:19,280
Speaker 1: in this specific world that we're talking about I would

1876
01:53:19,360 --> 01:53:22,320
Speaker 1: probably have downed it about a three, three and a

1877
01:53:22,360 --> 01:53:24,000
Speaker 1: half on a good day.

1878
01:53:24,080 --> 01:53:28,960
Speaker 3: Oh see, I think, and maybe this is just my fright,

1879
01:53:31,040 --> 01:53:33,040
Speaker 3: but I would give it like a two. I think

1880
01:53:33,720 --> 01:53:43,120
Speaker 3: because of my perceived conflation of mental illness equals evil,

1881
01:53:43,800 --> 01:53:48,600
Speaker 3: demonic possession, and because our Astra has kind of a

1882
01:53:48,720 --> 01:53:54,160
Speaker 3: checkered history with that, and in two of his movies

1883
01:53:54,280 --> 01:54:00,080
Speaker 3: there's some questionable stuff happening regarding mental illness and conflating it.

1884
01:54:00,080 --> 01:54:04,719
Speaker 3: It's like, you know, violence or demonic possession or whatever

1885
01:54:04,720 --> 01:54:08,080
Speaker 3: it is. I really struggle with that, So I think

1886
01:54:08,120 --> 01:54:11,040
Speaker 3: I'll land on a two. But I also acknowledge that.

1887
01:54:11,840 --> 01:54:14,160
Speaker 3: And again, I think this is like a very well

1888
01:54:14,200 --> 01:54:19,240
Speaker 3: directed movie and the production design is incredible, the cinematography,

1889
01:54:19,280 --> 01:54:23,439
Speaker 3: the performances. But I will never watch it again because

1890
01:54:23,479 --> 01:54:24,280
Speaker 3: I'm just too scared.

1891
01:54:24,479 --> 01:54:26,800
Speaker 1: And this time you mean it, and this time I

1892
01:54:27,000 --> 01:54:27,400
Speaker 1: mean it.

1893
01:54:27,560 --> 01:54:29,920
Speaker 3: If someone if someone else says come on to my

1894
01:54:30,080 --> 01:54:33,800
Speaker 3: podcast to talk about hereditary I'll say no, thank you.

1895
01:54:33,840 --> 01:54:36,160
Speaker 1: If someone says come on to my podcast, I will

1896
01:54:36,160 --> 01:54:36,440
Speaker 1: say no.

1897
01:54:37,840 --> 01:54:40,560
Speaker 3: I will normally say yes, but not if it's a

1898
01:54:40,640 --> 01:54:44,520
Speaker 3: hereditary thing. Anyway. So yeah, two nipples, and I'm giving

1899
01:54:44,560 --> 01:54:48,960
Speaker 3: them both to Rex the dog, who I think in

1900
01:54:49,080 --> 01:54:51,240
Speaker 3: my memory survive.

1901
01:54:51,360 --> 01:54:56,839
Speaker 1: Tell yeah, yeah, I guess I'm gonna go three point

1902
01:54:57,000 --> 01:55:02,320
Speaker 1: two five, and I I get to give one get

1903
01:55:02,320 --> 01:55:05,560
Speaker 1: I would give one to Annie. I'm to give one

1904
01:55:06,240 --> 01:55:11,120
Speaker 1: to Anne Dowd's performance when she's pretending to not know

1905
01:55:11,360 --> 01:55:13,840
Speaker 1: about the doormat, because I just think it's a really

1906
01:55:13,880 --> 01:55:16,360
Speaker 1: funny moment where she's like, Oh, your mom made these,

1907
01:55:16,920 --> 01:55:21,920
Speaker 1: that's weird. I really enjoy that moment every time. Give

1908
01:55:21,960 --> 01:55:24,920
Speaker 1: one to Charlie. She did nothing wrong. She didn't ask

1909
01:55:25,000 --> 01:55:26,640
Speaker 1: to be born for crying out loud.

1910
01:55:26,680 --> 01:55:30,240
Speaker 3: She didn't have to have a payment demon put inside her.

1911
01:55:30,400 --> 01:55:33,080
Speaker 1: I know. And I'll give point my last point two

1912
01:55:33,120 --> 01:55:34,720
Speaker 1: five to Steve. He did his best.

1913
01:55:35,920 --> 01:55:38,200
Speaker 4: I think I would be swayed down to like a

1914
01:55:38,240 --> 01:55:42,360
Speaker 4: three because, if I think about it, everything we've talked about.

1915
01:55:42,560 --> 01:55:46,560
Speaker 4: I have also had my critiques about how how those

1916
01:55:46,640 --> 01:55:49,480
Speaker 4: types of things landed in this movie. Do I have

1917
01:55:49,520 --> 01:55:50,280
Speaker 4: to give these away?

1918
01:55:50,880 --> 01:55:51,520
Speaker 3: You don't have to.

1919
01:55:51,680 --> 01:55:53,320
Speaker 1: You don't have to. You can keep them for yourself.

1920
01:55:53,560 --> 01:55:55,440
Speaker 4: I don't know if I want to keep those in

1921
01:55:55,480 --> 01:55:58,200
Speaker 4: my house. I think they'll bring some bad juju.

1922
01:55:58,560 --> 01:56:00,000
Speaker 3: You can put them in the treehouse if you.

1923
01:56:00,160 --> 01:56:04,080
Speaker 4: Want yeah, we can put the space heaters on for

1924
01:56:04,120 --> 01:56:05,920
Speaker 4: them to keep them warm as well.

1925
01:56:06,080 --> 01:56:09,680
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, well, Paaloma, thank you so much for joining us.

1926
01:56:10,200 --> 01:56:13,240
Speaker 4: Thanks so much for having me and talking about this

1927
01:56:13,320 --> 01:56:13,560
Speaker 4: with me.

1928
01:56:14,120 --> 01:56:16,160
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. And before you go, tell us a

1929
01:56:16,160 --> 01:56:18,120
Speaker 1: little bit about your book and where we can where

1930
01:56:18,120 --> 01:56:18,880
Speaker 1: we can find it.

1931
01:56:19,840 --> 01:56:22,520
Speaker 4: So my short story collection is called Mouth. It is

1932
01:56:22,640 --> 01:56:29,920
Speaker 4: a collection of eleven dark, weird, surreal stories that are

1933
01:56:30,120 --> 01:56:34,520
Speaker 4: mostly centered on women. So if you liked Hereditary and

1934
01:56:34,880 --> 01:56:38,600
Speaker 4: you like weird stuff and want to feel uncomfortable while

1935
01:56:38,640 --> 01:56:42,240
Speaker 4: reading or watching something, maybe check out my book, which

1936
01:56:42,280 --> 01:56:44,080
Speaker 4: is wherever books are sold.

1937
01:56:44,320 --> 01:56:48,640
Speaker 3: As I say, we'll link to it in the description.

1938
01:56:48,280 --> 01:56:50,800
Speaker 1: Of this episode wonderful it fuck it rocks and.

1939
01:56:50,880 --> 01:56:54,480
Speaker 3: Uh where else can people follow you on social media?

1940
01:56:54,640 --> 01:56:59,080
Speaker 4: Maybe you can find me on Instagram and a very

1941
01:56:59,240 --> 01:57:03,160
Speaker 4: infrequently to Twitter at Polo mioo.

1942
01:57:08,040 --> 01:57:12,120
Speaker 3: And you can follow us on Instagram at Bechdel Cast.

1943
01:57:12,280 --> 01:57:16,920
Speaker 3: You can subscribe to our Matreon at patreon dot com

1944
01:57:16,920 --> 01:57:22,800
Speaker 3: slash Bechdel Cast, where there lives an episode on Midsummar.

1945
01:57:22,960 --> 01:57:25,600
Speaker 3: So if you want to check out our thoughts on

1946
01:57:26,600 --> 01:57:29,600
Speaker 3: ari Asta's other horror movie from this era.

1947
01:57:29,600 --> 01:57:32,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, don't, don't hold your breath on the bow as

1948
01:57:32,160 --> 01:57:37,280
Speaker 1: Afraid episode, but uh, you got your aster episodes, you freaks.

1949
01:57:37,360 --> 01:57:42,880
Speaker 3: Hope you're happy, but yeah, go over to our Matreon.

1950
01:57:43,320 --> 01:57:45,640
Speaker 3: It's five dollars a month and it gets you access

1951
01:57:45,720 --> 01:57:49,960
Speaker 3: to the entire back catalog of our over one hundred

1952
01:57:50,040 --> 01:57:55,600
Speaker 3: bonus episodes and enjoy a fun, goofy little theme that

1953
01:57:55,640 --> 01:57:58,000
Speaker 3: we conjure up every month.

1954
01:57:58,320 --> 01:58:01,680
Speaker 1: And you can get merch at tepa slash The Bechdel Cast.

1955
01:58:02,000 --> 01:58:04,280
Speaker 1: It's later polohoma is. I'm gonna let her go to

1956
01:58:04,320 --> 01:58:14,080
Speaker 1: bed and uh, don't let payment bite. Bye bye bye.

1957
01:58:16,120 --> 01:58:19,400
Speaker 3: The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by

1958
01:58:19,480 --> 01:58:23,360
Speaker 3: Caitlin Derante and Jamie Loftis, produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited

1959
01:58:23,440 --> 01:58:26,640
Speaker 3: by Mola Board. Our theme song was composed by Mike

1960
01:58:26,760 --> 01:58:31,120
Speaker 3: Kaplan with vocals by Katherine Voskresenski. Our logo and merch

1961
01:58:31,280 --> 01:58:34,240
Speaker 3: is designed by Jamie Loftis and a special thanks to

1962
01:58:34,280 --> 01:58:38,680
Speaker 3: Aristotle Assevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit

1963
01:58:38,720 --> 01:58:40,680
Speaker 3: linktree slash Bechdel Cast