Speaker 1: Also media.
Speaker 2: Oh it's behind the Bastards still podcast, Bad People, Margaret Killjoy,
Speaker 2: Margaret Helmet, Kintler, bad guy. You could call him a
Speaker 2: kind of like Philosopher. If he was Greek, his name
Speaker 2: would be Pedophilies. Robert, See, that was that was bad.
Speaker 2: It was just in my head. We just got to
Speaker 2: you got to excise this stuff. You just got to
Speaker 2: exercise this stuff.
Speaker 3: You just exist to make guests look bad.
Speaker 2: I really, I don't know what what else can you say?
Speaker 2: Probably factual things.
Speaker 1: And not Robert is your guest soon on Cool People?
Speaker 1: Did cool Stuff? Start thinking of your revenge.
Speaker 3: Oh that's a good point.
Speaker 1: Yeah. As the producer of both podcasts, I will help you.
Speaker 3: Well, just to give people a heads up. Robert did
Speaker 3: an episode about the Ukrainian anarchist Maknow, but I'm going
Speaker 3: to come in and tell him about the women who
Speaker 3: also did all that stuff. Yeah, so that's the Yeah,
Speaker 3: that's what they can can listen to. In a couple
Speaker 3: of weeks.
Speaker 2: I'm going to do I'm going to do a lot
Speaker 2: of that that borat my wife joke, but in my
Speaker 2: best Ukrainian accent.
Speaker 3: Oh oh, someone already that we had matt On uh ok, yeah.
Speaker 2: Well damn it all right, let's get back to the pedophiles.
Speaker 2: So it's important to understand the intellectual environment in the
Speaker 2: left in Germany in which all of this shit with
Speaker 2: Kintler's horrible experimentation happened because Kintler's pedophile foster program, He's
Speaker 2: focusing on these kids who are the most deprived and
Speaker 2: like marginalized people in all of German society. Right, these
Speaker 2: these homeless children, But those are not the only kids
Speaker 2: being victimized or at least experiencing elements of victimization as
Speaker 2: a result of this like pedophile infiltration of the German
Speaker 2: left and this kind of conflation of sexual liberation with
Speaker 2: like child sexual liberation. Yeah, so research on all of
Speaker 2: this is Sketchy's not the right word, but it's like
Speaker 2: it's it's it's messy because it's problematically hard to fund
Speaker 2: any kind of research into pedophilia. But the common answer
Speaker 2: you'll get is that somewhere around one percent of the population,
Speaker 2: as like human population, are pedophiles. Right, it's kind of
Speaker 2: probably the top the high number in.
Speaker 3: Terms of their like sexual attraction pattern or whatever.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, so that's you know, a very small number
Speaker 2: of people, but a lot of Berliners and a lot
Speaker 2: of members of like the New Left in Germany are
Speaker 2: in West Germany are playing a role in institutionalizing pedophilic
Speaker 2: practices into childcare a lot more than that one percent.
Speaker 2: And so these people are doing it not because they
Speaker 2: themselves are attracted to children, but because they have bought
Speaker 2: into a specific kind of sexual liberation ideology that guys
Speaker 2: like Kinler are pushing. A good example of this is
Speaker 2: the case of Commune two, a commune formed in the
Speaker 2: summer of nineteen sixty seven by four men and three
Speaker 2: women in an apartment in a street in Berlin. I
Speaker 2: am not going to try and dissa it's geist Bruckstrassa.
Speaker 2: Maybe I did that.
Speaker 3: Okay, there's a little funny bee at the end, that's
Speaker 3: all I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So these four men
Speaker 3: and three women form this commune with two children, a
Speaker 3: three year old girl and a four year old boy.
Speaker 3: In nineteen seventy one, a leftist magazine called kurz Book
Speaker 3: published a full spread article about Commune two and particularly
Speaker 3: its experimentation in child sexual liberation. In an argument in
Speaker 3: an article for Der Spiegel, Jan Fleischauer wrote, quote for
Speaker 3: the residents. The cohabitation experiment was an attempt to overcome
Speaker 3: all bourgeoisie constraints, which included everything from separate bank accounts
Speaker 3: and closed bathroom doors to fidelity within couples and the
Speaker 3: development of feelings of shame. The two children were raised
Speaker 3: by the group, which often meant no one paid much
Speaker 3: attention to them. Because the adults had made it their
Speaker 3: goal not just to tolerate, but in fact a firm
Speaker 3: child sexuality, they were not satisfied to simply act as
Speaker 3: passive observers. Kurz book seventeen that the issue of the
Speaker 3: magazine contained a series of poster sized photos under the
Speaker 3: headline love Play in the Children's Room. It depicted Nessim
Speaker 3: and Grisha, both naked. The oversized images are of the
Speaker 3: sort that one would expect to see in a magazine
Speaker 3: for pedophiles today, certainly not in an influential publication of
Speaker 3: the leftist Intelligensia. The caption reads, Grisha walks over to
Speaker 3: the mirror, looks at her body, bends forward several times,
Speaker 3: encircling her buttocks with her hands, and says, look, my vagina.
Speaker 3: So what you're seeing here? This is not the same
Speaker 3: thing that Kinler's doing. It's certainly not as problematic as
Speaker 3: straight up saying we are handing poor kids to pedophiles because.
Speaker 2: Who else will love them? But this is also deeply
Speaker 2: problematic right now, Fleshower caught up with a former member
Speaker 2: of the commune who talked to her about how these
Speaker 2: kids had done. This former member told her that Nassim
Speaker 2: the Boy felt horror when asked about his time at
Speaker 2: the commune, but both he and Grecish seemed to have
Speaker 2: grown up into functional adults. Neither of them really expressed
Speaker 2: an interest in talking about their childhood, which is their right.
Speaker 2: I get the feeling they have a lot of anger,
Speaker 2: but not in the same way as the kids who
Speaker 2: were placed with pedophiles, probably because while the behavior of
Speaker 2: the adults in the commune engaged in was unacceptable, I
Speaker 2: don't think it involved actual sex, right, Okay, it is
Speaker 2: enough on that edge, and there are some people who
Speaker 2: argued for it. It may have I can't say for certain, right,
Speaker 2: this is a lot of these different experiments flirt at
Speaker 2: the edge of that. The word flirt is unfortunately literally
Speaker 2: it's really it's messy and will never know fully with
Speaker 2: all of this stuff, right, Commune two, though, was not
Speaker 2: an isolated experiment. It was a pilot project an anti
Speaker 2: authoritarian living that was seen as so successful it was
Speaker 2: followed by other private kindergartens. We talked about how all
Speaker 2: of these a lot of them are people, of a
Speaker 2: lot of them are like educators and academics are forming
Speaker 2: these like private kindergartens, which are basically like communal kindergarteners
Speaker 2: for groups of leftists with kids to like have their
Speaker 2: little kids in. Right, and these are experiments and anti
Speaker 2: authoritarian education. These are designed to break the kind of
Speaker 2: patterns that doctor Schreber and horror and like the Nazis
Speaker 2: had put that we talked about in the first episodes
Speaker 2: of this Right, and there.
Speaker 3: Are people who've done this really well. They just don't
Speaker 3: sleep with the children.
Speaker 2: And by the way, not all of these kinder lodens
Speaker 2: are places where children are slept with, right, I don't
Speaker 2: think most of them were. But this is not a
Speaker 2: tiny chunk of them either. We're not even slept with
Speaker 2: where kids where child's sexual liberation is a topic of
Speaker 2: like focus for the parents. Right, Okay, that's more accurate
Speaker 2: to say what we're talking about. This is not a
Speaker 2: case of they're talking. I'm just going to get into
Speaker 2: the story. This is really messy and complicated and there's
Speaker 2: a lot to discuss. So these centers, called kinder Lootens
Speaker 2: were essentially less extreme than the commune. They involved groups
Speaker 2: of parents collaborating and creating a learning space for groups
Speaker 2: of kids. These were not all the same, but in
Speaker 2: many cases, weird ideas about sex sed were mixed with
Speaker 2: reasonable ideas for experimental childcare attempts to break the notably
Speaker 2: problematic authoritarian patterns in parenting that had been a part
Speaker 2: of the Nazi era right that had helped feed into
Speaker 2: it parents. One of the things that people will do
Speaker 2: is like kid parents would take kids to protests, They
Speaker 2: would engage children with political education not seen in normal schools.
Speaker 2: The idea was, you should be able to talk with
Speaker 2: kids about real issues in the world the way you
Speaker 2: would with an adult, not necessarily hiding this stuff from them.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: The downside of that is that there was also this
Speaker 2: idea that, well, if we're going to treat kids like
Speaker 2: adults in one way, right, yeah. Alexander Schuller, an influential
Speaker 2: figure in the kinder laden movement, claims that sex ed
Speaker 2: was the topic most discussed when parents would debate as
Speaker 2: to how they should make structure these things from Der
Speaker 2: Spiegel quote in nineteen sixty nine, Schuller, a sociologist, was
Speaker 2: one of the founders of a kinder Lauden in Berlin's
Speaker 2: Wilmersdorf neighborhood. Like Schuller, the other parents were academics, journalists
Speaker 2: or university employees. A decided the upper middle class lot.
Speaker 2: Schuller's two sons, four and five years old at the time,
Speaker 2: grew up without the customary rules and punishments of a
Speaker 2: government run day care facility, but the adults were soon
Speaker 2: divided over the issue of sex. Some were determined to
Speaker 2: encourage their children to show when touch their genitalia, while
Speaker 2: the others were horrified by the idea. It was never
Speaker 2: addressed quite that directly, but it was clear that in
Speaker 2: the end, sex with two female teachers was considered. Says Schuller,
Speaker 2: I found it incredibly difficult to take a stance. I
Speaker 2: felt that what we were trying to do was fundamentally correct,
Speaker 2: but when it came to this issue, I thought this
Speaker 2: is crazy, this just isn't right. But then I felt
Speaker 2: ashamed of thinking that way. I think many were in
Speaker 2: the same position.
Speaker 3: It's that justification for it on a core level. Yeah,
Speaker 3: the main thing is just don't do that, don't abuse people, yes,
Speaker 3: and then yeah, especially child Then it's when.
Speaker 2: You start centering ideology, Yeah, before centering how you treat people.
Speaker 2: That not just this, but all problems start, right, And
Speaker 2: it takes a full year of debate. But thankfully in
Speaker 2: this case, the parents who are like, of course they
Speaker 2: shouldn't sleep with the teachers did win. There was no
Speaker 2: sex in this kinder Loten. I get the feeling that
Speaker 2: in this case the parents who were talking about like
Speaker 2: who were suggesting effectively like sexually assaulted, like that they
Speaker 2: were ideologically cooked, right, that they felt like this was
Speaker 2: the most radical thing they could do and that that
Speaker 2: would make them better leftists. I say this because it
Speaker 2: doesn't sound like from Schuler's recollections, the teachers wanted to
Speaker 2: molest these kids, right, or that the parent who suggested
Speaker 2: it wanted to watch or participate. They just felt kind
Speaker 2: of vaguely that the experience would help craft more anti
Speaker 2: authoritarian youth. It is madness, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And Ye're right about how it's like it's been
Speaker 3: injected by pedophiles into this movement, and then everyone's like, fuck,
Speaker 3: do we have to become pedophiles? And then people are like, no, no.
Speaker 2: Of course we don't. And thankfully, in Shuler's case, the
Speaker 2: people who are like no, of course not do win right. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And again somewhere in the sheet in that scene, in
Speaker 2: the broader Kinderlodden scene, there are real pedophiles consciously trying
Speaker 2: to craft a world where they can act with impunity.
Speaker 2: An influential educational tool at the time was the Handbook
Speaker 2: for Positive Child and Doctrination, which is a bad title
Speaker 2: for a book. This is a nineteen sixty eight tract
Speaker 2: that claimed to help parents quote create a new person
Speaker 2: and argued children can learn to appreciate eroticism and sexual
Speaker 2: intercourse long before they are capable of understanding how a
Speaker 2: child is conceived. It is valuable for children to cuddle
Speaker 2: with adults. It is no less valuable for sexual intercourse
Speaker 2: to occur during cuddling. And this is part of why
Speaker 2: I grounded these episodes by talking about how there was
Speaker 2: for generations and statitude that like, you do not make
Speaker 2: any contact with your children other than what is the
Speaker 2: minimal necessary to maintain their surviving right and the reaction
Speaker 2: to that goes in an equally insane direction. Right, Like
Speaker 2: it's not just well, of course parents should like hold
Speaker 2: their kids and express physical affection, but like it's fine
Speaker 2: of sex accurs, right, it's this, it's this rubber band
Speaker 2: effect when you go in that's insane a direction. It's
Speaker 2: like you should lock children alone in a room for
Speaker 2: the first day of their life and never so much
Speaker 2: as like hug them. When you break that, you're going
Speaker 2: to wind up in an equally damaging place.
Speaker 3: And just one of the million reasons is so heartbreaking
Speaker 3: is that it's like it destroys the safety. Yeah, the
Speaker 3: whole point of that affection from a parent's arming. I'm
Speaker 3: trying to get a super emotional about the whole point
Speaker 3: of that emotion from the parent should be a non
Speaker 3: sexual safety, yeah, you know, and like showing what care
Speaker 3: and love are divorced, like separate and safe from that
Speaker 3: kind of It's so I know everyone listening knows it's evil,
Speaker 3: but it's.
Speaker 2: Just it's this vile conflation of like children should have
Speaker 2: adults with whom they have a safe kind of intimacy
Speaker 2: that allows them to explore the world, and then twisting
Speaker 2: that into children should be exploring their bodies with adults,
Speaker 2: which they should not be, right right, Like, it's this conflation. No, No,
Speaker 2: children need to have like a healthy intimate relationship with
Speaker 2: their parents or with the adults who are their caregives,
Speaker 2: because that is how you have the security that allows
Speaker 2: you to go out into the world and meet it. Right. Yeah, Yeah,
Speaker 2: And obviously I think there's no way that handbook wasn't
Speaker 2: written by a pedophile trying to provide cover for himself
Speaker 2: and others like him it. But a lot of these
Speaker 2: very dumb parents did not catch that, and worse, awkwardly
Speaker 2: tried to live up to this supposedly revolutionary standard. Some
Speaker 2: leftist thinkers, like Monica Seyffert, a sociologist, were disturbed when
Speaker 2: the children in her kinder laden did not attempt to
Speaker 2: have sex with the adults. She concluded the inhibitions and
Speaker 2: insecurities of the adults had likely forced those children to
Speaker 2: suppress their sexual curiosity. She saw this as a failure.
Speaker 2: And what's happening here is that you have in a
Speaker 2: lot of these kids. This is why I say most
Speaker 2: of these these people are not pedophiles who have bought
Speaker 2: into this cooked shit because you have these attitudes that like, well,
Speaker 2: these kids should feel confident sexually experimenting with adults, and
Speaker 2: it doesn't happen because that's not natural, right, because the
Speaker 2: adults don't want it, and neither do the kids. And
Speaker 2: the most cooked of these intellectuals, like Seaford are like, well,
Speaker 2: clearly we have failed.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm looking at the equation that someone
Speaker 3: wrote and it's not happening in real life. Therefore real
Speaker 3: life is wrong.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, exactly, Like this is not it's not naturally.
Speaker 2: This is not a thing that happens between adults and children.
Speaker 2: It is a thing that has to be forced, which
Speaker 2: is proven in fact by this reaction, by how disappointed
Speaker 2: a lot of these these these academics and intellectuals are. Unfortunately,
Speaker 2: some of the parents were equally disappointed and took steps
Speaker 2: to stimulate their children. Again, these are still mostly these
Speaker 2: are not mostly pedophile, so this behavior they're not like
Speaker 2: actually abusing the kids physically, but instead they tell a
Speaker 2: lot of weird sex jokes, and they make a point
Speaker 2: to use words like cock and vagina constantly in front
Speaker 2: of kids. Schuller, who is like, this is kind of
Speaker 2: how Schuler's kinder laden. They were like, well, we won't
Speaker 2: have children molest students, but instead we'll use sexual terminology
Speaker 2: around them a lot and tell weird jokes that make
Speaker 2: them uncomfortable. Shuler, looking back on this decades later, claims
Speaker 2: his kids like, overall thought the kinder laden was a
Speaker 2: good experience, but quote, they thought the constant chatter about
Speaker 2: sex was horrible because that's a normal way for children
Speaker 2: to feel about adults talking about that this way, right, well.
Speaker 3: And actually and pointing out that everything else like yeah,
Speaker 3: it was injected into this otherwise really interesting and radical
Speaker 3: idea that was Yeah, otherwise good with this.
Speaker 2: There's a clear problem in pedagogy in our society. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: and it is interesting that like, yeah, the kids were like, well,
Speaker 2: the stuff about like you know, go into protests, learning
Speaker 2: about politics, having kind of like non authoritarian learning structure
Speaker 2: was great. I wish there hadn't been so many weird
Speaker 2: dick jokes. That was kind of bad. And I think
Speaker 2: Shuller's the experience of Schuler's kids does thankfully represent a
Speaker 2: majority of the kids exposed to this system, which is
Speaker 2: more what the fuck were our parents thinking than like
Speaker 2: dev stating trauma, Right, Yeah, that is the norm is like, boy,
Speaker 2: that was weird. They were fucking cooked, something was fucked
Speaker 2: up in their heads. Like Because most of these kids
Speaker 2: were not molested, right, But between Schuler's kids and Ulrich,
Speaker 2: who is the boy who Kinler gave to a pedophile,
Speaker 2: there were a lot of children who still did suffer
Speaker 2: different degrees of abuse. Right, not as severe as like
Speaker 2: a kid being fostered with a child molester, but on
Speaker 2: that spectrum.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: Sophie Dannenberg was one of these children. Her parents were
Speaker 2: members of the German Communist Party, and they sent her
Speaker 2: to a kinderladden in Geesen. As an adult, she interviewed
Speaker 2: her mother and other people from the kinderladen and wrote
Speaker 2: about their experiences in a novel with the excellent title
Speaker 2: The Pale Heart of the Revolution. Fly Shower writes of
Speaker 2: this book, the material she used includes an account of
Speaker 2: a parent's evening where one of the mothers said that
Speaker 2: she stripped naked in front of her sons so that
Speaker 2: he could inspect her. In the process, the woman spread
Speaker 2: her legs to expose her private parts for his inspection.
Speaker 2: The game ended when the boy stuck a pencil into
Speaker 2: his mother's vagina. The parents also spent a long time
Speaker 2: discussing whether it was a good idea to have sex
Speaker 2: with their own children so as to demonstrate the naturalness
Speaker 2: of sexual intercourse. Although the people Danenberg interview did not
Speaker 2: recall any instances of physical advances, they did describe softer
Speaker 2: forms of sexual assault, So there's pushy demands on children
Speaker 2: to show their naked bodies. In the novel, which is
Speaker 2: based on Dannenberg's research, the eight year old character Simone
Speaker 2: is told to strip in front of several adults and
Speaker 2: other children. Why do you want to hide yourself, the
Speaker 2: mother says, to the amusement of people standing around. When
Speaker 2: the child instinctively holds a pillow in front of her genitalia,
Speaker 2: it's a beautiful thing you have there, Show it to us.
Speaker 2: And yeah. Abuse is the closest app term to describe
Speaker 2: this totally. It doesn't quite describe how weird it is, right,
Speaker 2: but it's accurate enough. One author who studied this period,
Speaker 2: cited in der Spiegel's states that objectively speaking, this behavior
Speaker 2: was child abuse, but writes kind of confusingly, subjectively it wasn't.
Speaker 2: And that's a weird statement. One I don't really fully
Speaker 2: one I don't really agree with, but I want to
Speaker 2: continue fly Showers quote describing it, right, Okay, as outlandish
Speaker 2: as it seems in retrospect, the parents apparently had the
Speaker 2: welfare of the children in mind, not their own. For
Speaker 2: the adherence to the new movement, the child did not
Speaker 2: serve as a sex object to provide the adults with
Speaker 2: a means of satisfying their sexual urges. This differentiates politically
Speaker 2: motivated abuse from pedophilia, and that's an interesting concept, politically
Speaker 2: motivated child abuse, right.
Speaker 3: It's also not as much behind closed doors, right, and
Speaker 3: so we actually probably weirdly know more about it than
Speaker 3: like the Catholic Church sex abuse or yes.
Speaker 2: The.
Speaker 3: Mother Winter. Yeah, yeah, it makes me angry because that's
Speaker 3: a good name for a weird old you know, mother.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very a lot of this. It's interesting to
Speaker 2: me kind of making that distinction that, like, well, because
Speaker 2: what you get with a lot of is these parents
Speaker 2: who are abusing their kids don't like what they're doing,
Speaker 2: are personally uncomfortable with it, and feel bad that they
Speaker 2: don't feel better about doing it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because and they're like, oh, it's because I'm bourgeois.
Speaker 3: But the next generation be true. This yeah, fuck, cooked
Speaker 3: is the right word, Cooked is.
Speaker 2: The right wall. This is where this is a problem.
Speaker 2: You get all over the fucking map when it comes
Speaker 2: to radical polic The Nazis were obviously trying to create
Speaker 2: a new kind of man, right, They write about that constantly.
Speaker 2: There was also this concept of the new Soviet man, right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: And there's often left and right in radical politics, this
Speaker 2: idea that like, in order to make the world that
Speaker 2: is possible, the better world that's possible, we have to
Speaker 2: remake people. And I kind of think you're always doomed
Speaker 2: and wrong if that's your goal, because people don't need
Speaker 2: to be remade. You have to meet people where they
Speaker 2: are and make their lives and thus the world better.
Speaker 2: And if you if your goal is to like change
Speaker 2: what people, if you think that's what you're doing, there's
Speaker 2: so much evil that will be justified as part of
Speaker 2: that process, no matter how good your goals are, right,
Speaker 2: because it's a bad thing to what to do?
Speaker 3: I know, And it's like, it's still important to improve pedagogy,
Speaker 3: it's still important to raise kids less authoritarianly and so
Speaker 3: that they're more inoculated against tars. But like, but yeah,
Speaker 3: not to it's like it's the difficult puts the wheat
Speaker 3: into the cold to be like it'll become cold tolerant
Speaker 3: all seeds.
Speaker 2: It's it's the difference between saying, wow, for generations, parents
Speaker 2: wouldn't even hug their kids and we wound up as Nazis.
Speaker 2: We should probably like it. We were abusing our kids
Speaker 2: for generations, and we should find ways to raise them
Speaker 2: that are less abusive. Instead, it's they may we need
Speaker 2: to remake our children so that they can almost so
Speaker 2: that they can like remedy the sins of the past.
Speaker 2: It's which are two different things. Saying that, like, we
Speaker 2: should not abuse kids the way that we were is
Speaker 2: different from saying we need to make different people, right,
Speaker 2: we need to be producing different kinds of people like you.
Speaker 3: No, that's actually really interesting because it's like we're always
Speaker 3: oh gen Z is gonna save us, and now it's
Speaker 3: already like, oh jen A is that finally? Yeah, the
Speaker 3: alphas have got it. Yeah, we woke you know generation.
Speaker 3: And it's a little bit like what's getting ourselves off
Speaker 3: the hook? Yeah, Like, yeah, I objectively have fewer ears
Speaker 3: left ahead of me probably, but then you know, so
Speaker 3: maybe it's more on me than it is on the
Speaker 3: fucking youth.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and maybe it's on people to figure out
Speaker 2: how to make the world better and that that's a
Speaker 2: better place to start than making people better. Yes, right,
Speaker 2: because if your goal is to make people better, yeah,
Speaker 2: you're usually going to do something terrible. You're usually going
Speaker 2: to do something terrible if your goal is to make
Speaker 2: people better rather than help people. Right, that's the distinction.
Speaker 2: I want to help people, I want to make people better.
Speaker 2: One of those is fine. The other leads to this shit,
Speaker 2: you know. So anyway, when I think of politically motivated
Speaker 2: child abuse, I do think back to that book To
Speaker 2: Train Up a Child. No, it's just that like that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: when I think of politically motivated child abuse, I think
Speaker 2: of the Washington State Highway Patrol. No, not quite yet,
Speaker 2: but it is. I've always considered that book to Train
Speaker 2: Up a Child, which is like, if you look to
Speaker 2: the duggers, you know, the IBLP thes like hard right
Speaker 2: wing Christian organizations, it's their textbook for how to beat
Speaker 2: your children to make them better. Okay, I do kind
Speaker 2: of wonder I always just saw that as simple child abuse.
Speaker 2: Is it more accurate to describe that as politically motivated
Speaker 2: child abuse. I don't know, it's a bigger topic.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, because maybe they don't even know because kid
Speaker 3: because you're angry, or even hitting your kid because oh crap,
Speaker 3: my kid is to run out into the street and
Speaker 3: I can't think of anything else to do.
Speaker 2: This is all my only tool I have in my head. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Right, So those are both motivated by something different. But yeah,
Speaker 3: no versus like I am neglectful of my duty as
Speaker 3: a father unless I solemnly and sadly hit my child
Speaker 3: with a rod. And oh that's interesting.
Speaker 2: And I know kids who were like Quiver Fool, who
Speaker 2: were raised in the religious right, who is like, yeah,
Speaker 2: that's part of what broke us out is my parents
Speaker 2: didn't like doing that, didn't like the discipline. And so
Speaker 2: I do think it's actually useful to look at a
Speaker 2: lot of the child abuse that does occur on the
Speaker 2: right through that this is politically motivated child abuse.
Speaker 3: Lens right.
Speaker 2: I actually think that might be really important. It didn't
Speaker 2: really occur to me until I started reading about these
Speaker 2: weird German leftists and their ideas of like sex liberation.
Speaker 2: But yeah, anyway, one of the most famous abusers within
Speaker 2: this system this like kinder lodden system, this sort of
Speaker 2: like shit that's coming out of the German left inist period.
Speaker 2: Was Daniel Kohne Benditt, a Green Party politician who was
Speaker 2: a student leader during in May of nineteen sixty eight
Speaker 2: protest in France and was co president of the European Greens,
Speaker 2: European Free Alliance and the EU Parliament. He was a
Speaker 2: critic of Stalinism and an advocate of libertarian socialism. And
Speaker 2: part of why I'm bringing him up is we've talked
Speaker 2: about the communists who we are cooked, and it is
Speaker 2: not just the communists.
Speaker 3: I was so excited for. I wasn't surprised.
Speaker 2: Plenty of plenty of anarchists have this kind of like
Speaker 2: fucking ideological cookedness to them. In nineteen seventy five, Daniel
Speaker 2: wrote an autobiographical book that described his experience as a
Speaker 2: kinderloden teacher. On several occasions, he claimed children opened his
Speaker 2: fly and stroked his penis. Quote. I was usually quite
Speaker 2: taken aback. My reactions varied depending on the circumstances. Now,
Speaker 2: I was not sure whether to classify him as is
Speaker 2: this a politically motivated abuser or just a pedophile? Until
Speaker 2: I read this transcript of a recording that serviced in
Speaker 2: twenty thirteen, and this is Daniel talking at nine in
Speaker 2: the morning. I joined my eight little toddlers between the
Speaker 2: ages of sixteen months and two years. I wash their butts,
Speaker 2: I tickle them, they tickle me, and we cuddle. You know,
Speaker 2: a child's sexuality is a fantastic thing. You have to
Speaker 2: be honest and sincere. With the very young kids, it
Speaker 2: isn't the same as it is with the four to
Speaker 2: six year old kids. When a little five year old
Speaker 2: girl starts undressing, it's great because it's a game. It's
Speaker 2: an incredibly erotic game. Oh my god, that's a pedophile.
Speaker 2: That's a pedophile. That's just the sun. Yeah, that's just
Speaker 2: a straight up pedophile.
Speaker 3: Right yeah.
Speaker 2: When this blew up, Daniel claimed that what he had
Speaker 2: been writing was just fiction meant to provoke people. Oh okay, sure, okay,
Speaker 2: this is all tight into like why the part of
Speaker 2: why it's not I'm not gonna say it's a major part,
Speaker 2: but it's not an insignificant part of like the rise
Speaker 2: of groups like AfD in Germany right now, because a
Speaker 2: lot of this shit came out very recently and has
Speaker 2: like blown up support for some of these left wing
Speaker 2: parties like this has done damage recently and provided ammunition
Speaker 2: to the right in Germany recently. Fair because people are
Speaker 2: furious when they learned out that this was right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's fair.
Speaker 2: Pedophiles who abuse children are predators, and predators inherently seek
Speaker 2: to escalate their behavior. As the seventies turned into the eighties,
Speaker 2: some of these pedophiles, who had been camouflaging themselves as
Speaker 2: childcare reform activists, decided to make a grand play for acceptance.
Speaker 2: Following in the wake of the gay rights movements, Organizations
Speaker 2: like the Indian Commune in Nuremberg sought to characterize pedophilia
Speaker 2: as a sexual orientation that deserved to be treated with respect. Now,
Speaker 2: in true German fashion, the Indian Commune with both an
Speaker 2: act of cultural appropriation and mind numbing abuse Germans. We've
Speaker 2: talked with this in our very first episodes on Karl May.
Speaker 2: There's this weird obsession with Native Americans that is based
Speaker 2: entirely in almost entirely in the fiction of a guy
Speaker 2: who never went to America and just lied about Native Americans. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and it influenced the Nazis. Loved like Hitler was a
Speaker 2: huge like like was this kind of weird Native American
Speaker 2: stand where he was not actually standing any real history
Speaker 2: like what this German altim, but he thought he was.
Speaker 2: And there's still a lot of weirdness around Native Americans
Speaker 2: in German society today. This is one example of it, right.
Speaker 2: The Indian Commune is a group of adults and children
Speaker 2: who painted each other up like Native Americans are, like
Speaker 2: their conception of Native Americans, and showed up at that
Speaker 2: year's Green Party convention to argue in favor of free
Speaker 2: sex for adults and children. Almost unbelievably, the Greens gave
Speaker 2: them a hearing more than that. In nineteen eighty five,
Speaker 2: the Green State Organization in Westphalia argued that nonviolent sexual
Speaker 2: contact between adults and children should be decriminalized. Another state
Speaker 2: Green Party published a position paper making the same argument,
Speaker 2: until public protests forced them to remove it. Again, we're
Speaker 2: in the eighties by now, so there's pushback to this.
Speaker 2: This movement had a name, the pedo sexual movement, and
Speaker 2: it succeeded for a while because a lot of non
Speaker 2: pedophiles bought their bullshit, But the driving force behind it
Speaker 2: was always highly placed, influential peederists in the Green Party.
Speaker 2: One of these pedophiles was Hermann Mehr, a leader in
Speaker 2: the party who lived on a commune that openly advertised
Speaker 2: engaging in pedophilia. One victim later told the magazine Develt
Speaker 2: that mer abused him, along with quote about ten men,
Speaker 2: many of whom were visitors to the commune, who seemed
Speaker 2: to have shown up for that purpose. Right, this is
Speaker 2: a place you can like, Yeah, it's so easy, so vile.
Speaker 2: Another pedophile leader of the pedo sexual movement was Peter Schult,
Speaker 2: an anarchist journalist who described himself as a pederist and
Speaker 2: was convicted of bringing a girl into his house to
Speaker 2: abuse in nineteen seventy six. Schult denied the allegations and
Speaker 2: claimed that he was being punished for his sexuality and
Speaker 2: political organizing. He attracted a great deal of support, and
Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy seven he wrote an angry pamphlet attacking
Speaker 2: anarchists who hadn't supported him. He described them as preaching
Speaker 2: anarchy while being offended at the sight of lived anarchy.
Speaker 3: In his words, I am glad that there were enough
Speaker 3: anarchists that at him that he had to write that
Speaker 3: he had to write that's what I'm That's the only
Speaker 3: thing I'm procured any of this story is that people
Speaker 3: were like, what the book it is.
Speaker 2: It's one of those things where like Schult denied the
Speaker 2: allegations that he had molested a girl in part because
Speaker 2: he was molesting boys and maybe those specific allegations were
Speaker 2: wrong about molesting boys. Yeah, yeah, Like Kindler, Shultz defended
Speaker 2: his molestation of boys by claiming he was just helping runaways.
Speaker 2: And here is what gay historian Hubert Kennedy wrote in
Speaker 2: schultz obituary. Peter found and took homb the homeless, or
Speaker 2: they found him in state institutions. His address was passed
Speaker 2: from one boy to another as a place where runaways
Speaker 2: could find temporary shelter. His address was also well known
Speaker 2: to the authorities, whose authority the anarchist Peter refused to recognize,
Speaker 2: and he was sent to prison numerous times on charges
Speaker 2: of drug possession and seducing minors. A number of left
Speaker 2: wing publications were unfortunately woefully open to the arguments of
Speaker 2: Peter's actual advocates. Tag Zeitongue, a an all weekly publication,
Speaker 2: published interviews with pedophiles where they discussed how wonderful their
Speaker 2: sex with little boys was when g d Hinsel, co
Speaker 2: founder of the paper, argued that they should not be
Speaker 2: promoting pedophilia. She was described as being a prude and
Speaker 2: told quote, there's no such thing as censorship in the
Speaker 2: tag Zeitungue, Like basically, we don't censor people from talking
Speaker 2: about molestic children.
Speaker 3: This is a problem in American left too. I'm not
Speaker 3: sure if you're gonna get into this during the same
Speaker 3: time period.
Speaker 2: You know, we're not enough. Again, when we talked about Thornleigh,
Speaker 2: we did, and we've talked on other shows about an
Speaker 2: influential anarchist now, oh god, what's his fucking name, the.
Speaker 3: Taz guy, Peter lamborn Wilson Peter.
Speaker 2: Lamborn Wilson hackeen Bay, who was also may not have
Speaker 2: actually I don't know if you ever like actually molested anyone,
Speaker 2: but argued in favor of it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm undern inversion of him arguing in favor because
Speaker 3: it was it was, Yeah, it was in vogue. And
Speaker 3: it's interesting because it's during this like dead period of organizing.
Speaker 3: I mean, there is organizing happening, but like by and large,
Speaker 3: the anti thoritarian left is like not doing a lot
Speaker 3: during the seventies and eighties, because well, it just was
Speaker 3: going through a slum, you know, Yeah, and so the
Speaker 3: only people around, I mean, they're not the only people around.
Speaker 3: There are many people who were against.
Speaker 2: This all along, yes, and we're about to talk about those.
Speaker 2: Great So there are leftists in Germany who speak out
Speaker 2: against this real, big problem. One of them is Gunter Amant,
Speaker 2: a social scientist who argued accurately there is no equitable
Speaker 2: sexuality between children and adults. Another person on around.
Speaker 3: Violent sexuality between children.
Speaker 2: All it's inherently violent for an adult to rape a kid.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: Alice Schwarzer, who founded a women's magazine, also lambassid acceptance
Speaker 2: of pedophilia on the left. From Der Schpiegel quote, Amant
Speaker 2: recalls how he was disparaged as a reactionary in flyers
Speaker 2: and articles. There was an outright campaign against alas in
Speaker 2: me at the time. He says, it wasn't until the
Speaker 2: mid nineteen nineties that this horrific episode came to an end.
Speaker 2: In nineteen ninety four, the pedos appearing in Tagzitung for
Speaker 2: the last time, and even that publication recognized that intercourse
Speaker 2: with little boys was no different than with little girls who,
Speaker 2: thanks to the women's movement, have long been deemed worthy
Speaker 2: of protection. And that's a worthwhile note on this is
Speaker 2: that when we talk about these people supporting sexual contact
Speaker 2: with kids from adults, a lot of them in the
Speaker 2: kinder Looten movement, it's this broader like, well, we just
Speaker 2: need to be more open to kids' sexuality, for both
Speaker 2: boys and girls when it comes to like pairing abused
Speaker 2: children with pedophiles, you know, both officially through the state
Speaker 2: has happened with Kintler and kind of unofficially like that
Speaker 2: anarchist we talked about, did it's all little boys, because
Speaker 2: there's a broader understanding that you like, the feminist movement
Speaker 2: has already pushed through this understanding that that's not acceptable
Speaker 2: to do with little girls, and it took later for boys, right,
Speaker 2: And some of this is wrapped up in a lot
Speaker 2: of really complicated shit about the suppression of male homosexuals
Speaker 2: in Germany and throughout the West, and how common relationships
Speaker 2: between much older and much younger men. You know, were like,
Speaker 2: this is a messy, messy topic, right, Yeah, but it
Speaker 2: is kind of worth noting that, like part of what
Speaker 2: brings this to an end is when folks start arguing that,
Speaker 2: like we already agree it is wronged to molest little girls,
Speaker 2: why are we treating boys differently?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: It does come out of this like feminist movement, a
Speaker 2: lot of the backlash to this that finally succeeds in
Speaker 2: bringing it into it.
Speaker 3: Could you imagine that? That's like you're a feminist during
Speaker 3: this time, and that's what you have to waste.
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Do I really have to argue this? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's oh boy. Speaking of arguing, Margaret, you know
Speaker 2: what I love to argue in favor.
Speaker 3: Of commercial enterprise.
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right. In this case, it's a welcome
Speaker 2: relief from talking about this German pilot. And we're back.
Speaker 2: And speaking of back, let's get back to the story
Speaker 2: of doctor Helmut Kinler and his plan to pair foster
Speaker 2: kids with pedophiles. This continued all through the nineteen eighties,
Speaker 2: even after the pedo sexual movement faded in popularity thanks
Speaker 2: to belated resistance from within the left. The best documented
Speaker 2: victim of Kintler's specific program was a boy named Marco.
Speaker 2: In nineteen eighty eight. Marco was crossing the street alone
Speaker 2: when he was hit by a car. This was a
Speaker 2: minor incident. He was not severely injured, thankfully, but his
Speaker 2: injury the fact that he was not attended right drew
Speaker 2: the attention of a local youth wealth fare office, which
Speaker 2: was also run by the Berlin government. From the New
Speaker 2: Yorker quote, Caseworkers at the office observed that Marco's mother
Speaker 2: seemed unable to give him the necessary emotional attention. She
Speaker 2: worked at a sausage stand and was struggling to manage
Speaker 2: parenthood on her own. Marco's father, a Palestinian refugee, had
Speaker 2: divorced her. She sent Marco and his older brother to
Speaker 2: daycare in dirty clothes and left them there for eleven hours.
Speaker 2: Caseworkers recommended that Marco be placed in a foster home
Speaker 2: with a family like atmosphere. One described him as an
Speaker 2: attractive boy who was wild but very easy to influence.
Speaker 2: Hinkel a forty seven year old single man who supplemented
Speaker 2: his income as a foster father by repairing jukeboxes and
Speaker 2: other electronics. Marco was Hinkle's eighth foster son in sixteen years.
Speaker 2: When Hinkel began fostering children in nineteen seventy three, a
Speaker 2: teacher noted that he was always looking for contact with
Speaker 2: boys Hinkel specifically. Now again this is part of this
Speaker 2: is a result of the program that Kintler has instituted.
Speaker 2: Kinler is in content with Hinkel. Marco has two parents,
Speaker 2: both of them are in his life. They're separated, but
Speaker 2: his dad, the Palestinian refugee, is in his life, and
Speaker 2: so is his mom. They are both just poor and
Speaker 2: so as a result, they're scrambling to make enough money
Speaker 2: to get by, which means they are there are times
Speaker 2: when this kid is not watched as much as would
Speaker 2: be ideal. Right, the state takes him away from them
Speaker 2: for that, probably in part because there's a lot of
Speaker 2: writing about how like once they see his dad, they're like, well,
Speaker 2: we have to keep him away from this dangerous Muslim, right,
Speaker 2: like this authoritarian influence. Right, it's really really fucked up.
Speaker 2: So people in the senate and educational offices within the
Speaker 2: Berlin City government were well aware that Hinkel was a
Speaker 2: pedophile adopting boys, eight boys by the time he fosters Marco. Right,
Speaker 2: they don't stop any of this. He's again, this is
Speaker 2: when I talk about guys like Kittler being like, well,
Speaker 2: some kids are in such desperate straits that being with
Speaker 2: a pedophile is best for them. This is what they mean. Well,
Speaker 2: this kid's mom and dad are separated, and they're not
Speaker 2: people like us. They're not warm, so it must be
Speaker 2: better for him to be raped repeatedly, right, That is
Speaker 2: the calculation they're making. In nineteen eighty nine, a caseworker
Speaker 2: wrote that Hinkel was in a quote homosexual relationship with
Speaker 2: one of his foster sons, possibly Marco, a prosecutor. And again,
Speaker 2: this is not a relationship. I'm not calling it. That
Speaker 2: is what the caseworker calls it. In nineteen eighty nine,
Speaker 2: a prosecutor did call for an investigation, but Helmut Kintler,
Speaker 2: who described himself as Hinkel's permanent advisor and also called
Speaker 2: Hinkel regularly to talk politics, intervened. Kintler described himself to
Speaker 2: this prosecutor as the quote nation's chief authority on questions
Speaker 2: of sexual education, and at this point he was famous.
Speaker 2: He is regularly interviewed in the news. He is consulted
Speaker 2: by political leaders. He is a prominent and respected academic.
Speaker 2: He sends a letter on university letterhead to this prosecutor,
Speaker 2: issuing an expert opinion on Henkel, saying I've got to
Speaker 2: know this guy well through a research project we're both
Speaker 2: engaged in. Hinkel is a wonderful parent, and he attacks
Speaker 2: the wild interpretations of this psychologist who had accused him
Speaker 2: of pederasty. The threats of an investmentation went away. Several
Speaker 2: times a year, Hinkle would drive to see Kinler at
Speaker 2: the school where he taught. Kentler would study the children
Speaker 2: and take notes. He was happy enough with Hinkele that
Speaker 2: he kept a ready stream of boys heading into the
Speaker 2: pedophiles home. After Marco had been there eighteen months, he
Speaker 2: was joined by a kid named Spinn, who had been
Speaker 2: found at age seven begging for money in a subway station.
Speaker 2: The Youth Welfare office noted that since he'd likely never
Speaker 2: experienced a positive parent child relationship, he was a good
Speaker 2: candidate for Kinler's program.
Speaker 3: Because he's not getting that one now.
Speaker 2: So the solutions to all both of these kids problems.
Speaker 2: To the extent that Mark had a problem, the solution was, well, yeah,
Speaker 2: there should have been some sort of social welfare net
Speaker 2: to ensure that his mom didn't have to work these
Speaker 2: long shifts at the sausage factory so that she had
Speaker 2: more time for her kids. There should be like state
Speaker 2: funded daycare and stuff. You know, Yeah, there should be
Speaker 2: programs the same thing with the Oh there's a homeless
Speaker 2: kid begging for money, you know what we should do?
Speaker 2: Get him off the street and not into a pedophiles house. Right, Like,
Speaker 2: these are not complex problems. We're not talking about like
Speaker 2: intractable issues of geopolitics. Yeah, anyway, I'm going to quote
Speaker 2: again from The New Yorker. The two boys took on
Speaker 2: different roles in their new family. Spinn was the good son,
Speaker 2: docilen loving. Marco was more defiant. But at night, when
Speaker 2: Hinkle came into his room asking to cuddle or waiting
Speaker 2: for him while he brushed his teeth before bed, he
Speaker 2: had to comply. I just accepted it out of loyalty
Speaker 2: because I didn't know anything else. Marco told me. I
Speaker 2: didn't think what was happening was good, but I thought
Speaker 2: it was normal. I thought of it a little bit
Speaker 2: like food. People have different tastes in food, the way
Speaker 2: some people have different tastes and sexuality. If Spinn's bedroom
Speaker 2: door was open and he wasn't there, Marco knew what
Speaker 2: was happening, but the two boys never talked about what
Speaker 2: Hankle did to them. It was an absolutely taboo subject.
Speaker 2: Marco said. One day, Marco took a knife from the
Speaker 2: kitchen and slept with it under his pillow. When Hinkle
Speaker 2: approached his bed and discovered the blade, he withdrew quickly
Speaker 2: and he called Helmut Kentler, and he then handed the
Speaker 2: phone to Marco. Kentler asked him why he brought the
Speaker 2: knife into his bed, and Marco said, there's a devil
Speaker 2: behind my wall. Kindler had a call me grandfatherly presence.
Speaker 2: He assured Marco that there was no such thing as devils,
Speaker 2: and Marco agreed to surrender the knife. Never give up
Speaker 2: your knife, kids, never ever up your fucking knife.
Speaker 3: Well, and it's interesting because it compares to how we
Speaker 3: talked about demons in her head. Yeah, last week's episodes.
Speaker 3: You know, like there's ways that people are going to
Speaker 3: conceptualize the abuse that they're suffering.
Speaker 2: It's something almost so awful you have to turn it
Speaker 2: into a metaphor because ye can't even like, you can't
Speaker 2: even look at it directly, even though it's happening to you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I got really excited for where that story. I know,
Speaker 3: I know, I got its heartbreaking, I am.
Speaker 2: It would be great if this ended with a pedophile
Speaker 2: being stabbed to death. But it does not I know.
Speaker 3: And then it's like and also like most of the
Speaker 3: time it's like then you're like you want that kid
Speaker 3: to have to done that, And then you're like, life
Speaker 3: isn't going to get better.
Speaker 2: This is maybe bad stuff. I will say, this is
Speaker 2: a happy ending. This is a legit mark story has
Speaker 2: a legitimately wonderful ending. So that is good. I want
Speaker 2: to promise you that now bad stuff to get through. Yeah,
Speaker 2: So Marco still has a family. He has a mother
Speaker 2: and father. They visit sometimes again they're separated, but like
Speaker 2: they visit both separately and together, and they try to
Speaker 2: get him back. But Henkel has all the power. He
Speaker 2: would cancel visits at will minutes before they were set
Speaker 2: to begin, or he would end them early, often claiming
Speaker 2: that Marco's mother was disruptive to Marco's emotional state. The
Speaker 2: stress and drama Hankel created around these visits caused Marco
Speaker 2: to wet his bed and fail to focus at school,
Speaker 2: and Kentler used this as an excuse to end the
Speaker 2: visits entirely, telling the welfare office that Marco's educational successes
Speaker 2: are ruined by seeing his mom. Marco's Palestinian father was
Speaker 2: not allowed to visit at all because Henkel told authorities
Speaker 2: that Marco said he'd been beaten by his father. We
Speaker 2: have no I I think Marco has said that this
Speaker 2: was not true, but likes he is backing up anything
Speaker 2: Hinkel says because Hinkel is his caregiver, and as he states,
Speaker 2: I didn't know I could disagree with him about stuff
Speaker 2: right now. There are times that authorities saw through these lies.
Speaker 2: One of the mandated child therapists that Marco saw described
Speaker 2: Henkel as holding the boy prisoner during their sessions. Several
Speaker 2: different mandated therapists complained, but anytime stuff started to move
Speaker 2: in a way where like maybe the kids would be
Speaker 2: taken away from Hankel, Kintler would swoop in. He told
Speaker 2: the Youth Welfare office they were not qualified to assess
Speaker 2: a child who was as damaged as Marco. If an
Speaker 2: assessment was needed, only Kintler was established enough to do it. Yeah, right,
Speaker 2: right exactly. He acknowledged that Hinkel could appear harsh and hurtful,
Speaker 2: but this was not so. Quote. I ask you to
Speaker 2: consider that a man who deals with such seriously damaged
Speaker 2: children is not a simple person. What mister Hinkel needs
Speaker 2: from the authorities is trust and protection. It is the
Speaker 2: cop argument. What they're dealing with is so dangerous and
Speaker 2: vile that they have to use extreme measures, and we can't.
Speaker 2: We're not qualified to question them, right it is anytime
Speaker 2: you hear that logic, it means someone is doing something terrible. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Marco's parents spent years trying to get him back. This
Speaker 2: is not something he realizes as an adult. Oh my god,
Speaker 2: I was not abandoned. My parents fought for me. These
Speaker 2: two poor people, one of whom is a Palestinian refugee,
Speaker 2: were basically ranged against the entire power of the city
Speaker 2: government of Berlin, which was being effectively wielded by this
Speaker 2: weird pedophile philosopher against them. You know, there is a
Speaker 2: court case. Henkel coaches Marco to tell the judge that
Speaker 2: he wanted to stay with his foster father, who he
Speaker 2: called Papa. Marco claims, I didn't really know what was
Speaker 2: going on. I did not understand that my parents were
Speaker 2: fighting to have a connection to me. I thought that
Speaker 2: they had basically abandoned me, and I was scared of
Speaker 2: angering Henkel and also traumatized from the near knightly abuse. Right,
Speaker 2: there was one bright spot in his childhood, which is
Speaker 2: that it's a weird one. It's that this again pedophile
Speaker 2: who is fostering him gets a third foster son. This
Speaker 2: foster son is a disabled little boy named Marcel. Now,
Speaker 2: the fact that Hankel, the pedophile, sought to take possession
Speaker 2: of a boy who could not walk or talk is
Speaker 2: horrifying in ways that I cannot describe and will not
Speaker 2: labor on. But Marco and Sfinn came to love Marcel
Speaker 2: and treat him as their own blood. They took care
Speaker 2: of this boy like because he was their brother from
Speaker 2: the New Yorker. Marco and s Finn became Kramer's caretakers,
Speaker 2: feeding him strawberry flavored milk with a spoon and removing
Speaker 2: mucus from his lungs with a suction hose. When they
Speaker 2: went to Hankel's house in Brandenburg, west of Berlin, Marco
Speaker 2: pushed Kramer for hours in a tire swing. Kramer was
Speaker 2: the first person in years for whom Marco had felt love. Now, yeah,
Speaker 2: like the fact that these both of these kids being
Speaker 2: so profoundly abandoned and abused. When they see this disabled
Speaker 2: boy who is in desperate need of not just medical care,
Speaker 2: but attention. Yeah, provide. It is a wonderful bit of
Speaker 2: light in this right. Yeah. Marco struggles with school obviously,
Speaker 2: and part of this is because Hinkel is encouraging him
Speaker 2: to neglect his studies and misbehave right, because the worse
Speaker 2: Marco does in school, the more they have an excuse.
Speaker 2: They switch schools every year, which means that no adults
Speaker 2: get to spend enough time around Marco to realize what
Speaker 2: is going on. Hinkel is a very effective and methodical abuser,
Speaker 2: and that's what's going on here. His tactics work until
Speaker 2: Marco goes through puberty and starts lifting weights. One night,
Speaker 2: when Henkel came to molest him, Marco fought back, not
Speaker 2: even a lot, but that spelled the end of him
Speaker 2: being molested forever. Hinkel, of course, still responds aggressively to
Speaker 2: this in his own way. He would lock the kitchen
Speaker 2: at night. He justified it by to Kintler by claiming
Speaker 2: that Marco was greedy. You know, he would fight back,
Speaker 2: but he he did not keep molesting Marco, right because
Speaker 2: he's afraid of him. Because he was afraid of him. Now,
Speaker 2: now here's where things get complicated. When Marco turns eighteen,
Speaker 2: you might expect him to have gotten the hell out
Speaker 2: of the house, but he doesn't. He lives with Henkel
Speaker 2: for three more years. He says part of this is
Speaker 2: that he didn't even consider leaving to be possible. Quote. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's very hard to describe. But I was never raised
Speaker 2: to think critically about anything. I had an empty mind.
Speaker 2: Those are his words. He says this. But there is
Speaker 2: a very clear reason he stayed with Henkel, which is
Speaker 2: that his beloved adopted brother is living there too. Marcel
Speaker 2: is there. Marco willingly stays in the house of his
Speaker 2: abuser for three years so that he can continue to
Speaker 2: be a caregiver to his brother. This only ends when
Speaker 2: Marcel dies after a forty eight hour flew. Marco says
Speaker 2: he always checked on his brother multiple times throughout the
Speaker 2: night to make sure he was breathing, so he noticed
Speaker 2: very quickly that something was wrong. He tried to get
Speaker 2: Hankle to call for an ambulance, but hankeld not when
Speaker 2: any of the boys going to doctors, and so Marcel
Speaker 2: died while Marco watched. Quote I was looking into his
Speaker 2: eyes when he died. Now this does not prompt an
Speaker 2: investigation into Hankel. Marcel was an abandoned disabled child and
Speaker 2: was thus of less than no value to the Youth
Speaker 2: Welfare office. His file simply noted call from mister Hankel,
Speaker 2: who said Marcel died unexpectedly last night. Previously there were
Speaker 2: no signs of an infection. The following note says that Hankel,
Speaker 2: now sixty, wanted to adopt another boy. So talking about
Speaker 2: how long this goes? Marcel dies in two thousand and one,
Speaker 2: Kentler's program experiment is still going into the twenty first century.
Speaker 3: Yeah, two thousand and one felt very yep. Yeah, that's
Speaker 3: too recent.
Speaker 2: Kinler is a respected figure at this moment. This only
Speaker 2: starts to change when an academic, Teresa Netwig, began researching
Speaker 2: and writing about Kintler for her thesis. She had struggled
Speaker 2: to find good information on this pedophile foster program and
Speaker 2: noticed that most of the files were missing from the
Speaker 2: city archives because they had been deliberately removed. Kinler died
Speaker 2: in two thousand and eight, but even after that point
Speaker 2: he had loyal friends still in government and academia, and
Speaker 2: they fought back against her attempts to expose him. Eventually,
Speaker 2: her university contract was canceled, and she blames this on
Speaker 2: the fact that she chose to research Kentler. She eventually
Speaker 2: wrote a book on the man, which revealed that he
Speaker 2: was not just some wild eyed academic who bought into
Speaker 2: bogus science. He was also a pedophile. Kintler, a single man,
Speaker 2: adopted three sons and fostered several more children. Two of
Speaker 2: his foster sons have accused him of sexual abuse. They
Speaker 2: initially went to Karen Desrat, an author and researcher, who
Speaker 2: quote owed a lot to Kintler and thus referred the
Speaker 2: boys to another therapist rather than do anything when they
Speaker 2: came out to her. She claims the boys themselves wanted
Speaker 2: the abuse kept quiet because they quote didn't want to
Speaker 2: lose the positives of Kinler's care, that they had enough
Speaker 2: to eat and that they were taken care of in
Speaker 2: things like that. I'm going to read another quote from
Speaker 2: that New Yorker article about kind of the collapse of
Speaker 2: Kentler's reputation. Gunter Schmidt, a former president of the International
Speaker 2: Academy of Sex Research, which attracts the field's leading researchers,
Speaker 2: was friends with Kinler for more than twenty years. I
Speaker 2: honestly had respect for it, he told Nitwig of the experiment,
Speaker 2: because I thought, these are really young people who are
Speaker 2: in the worst situation. They probably have a long history
Speaker 2: at home, they had miserable childhoods, and someone is looking
Speaker 2: after them. And if Kinler is there, it'll be fine,
Speaker 2: he added, And the Berlin Senate is also there. When
Speaker 2: Kentler was fifty seven, he wrote Schmid a letter explaining
Speaker 2: why he was aging happily rather than becoming lonely and resigned.
Speaker 2: He and his twenty six year old son were quote
Speaker 2: part of a very fulfilling love story that had lasted
Speaker 2: thirteen years and still felt fresh. To understand his state
Speaker 2: of mind, Kentler wrote his friends should know his secret.
Speaker 2: Kinler seems to have reappraised his belief that pedophiles were
Speaker 2: good caregivers to abandoned children in nineteen ninety one, after
Speaker 2: that adopted son that he had bragged about having a
Speaker 2: good relationship with committed suicide. Now it's unclear to me
Speaker 2: if Kinler, and this is still a bit of a
Speaker 2: mystery me is he was he How much of this
Speaker 2: was like he's in this ideological space, and how much
Speaker 2: of this is he was always a pedophile. I really
Speaker 2: don't know with Kinler because he claims he claims to
Speaker 2: have recognized that there was like he had made errors
Speaker 2: in his beliefs around this stuff after his adopted son
Speaker 2: commit and abuse victim commits suicide. He would later claim
Speaker 2: that during the nineties, he reads this essay by a
Speaker 2: Hungarian psychoanalyst, Sandor Farinsky, that changed his mind on pedophilia.
Speaker 2: Farinsky wrote that sexual relationships between adults and children were
Speaker 2: always exploitative and dangerous for children. After his son's suicide,
Speaker 2: Kinler cited this paper often, but never admitted to molesting
Speaker 2: his own adopted children. He simply said that his child
Speaker 2: had been molested by his birth mother and committed suicide
Speaker 2: due to that.
Speaker 3: And you know, he's just a more responsibility.
Speaker 2: That's how I interpret this. Yeah, And there's definitely a
Speaker 2: period after which he claims to have recognized that, you know,
Speaker 2: this was wrong, that he's still in contact with Hankel
Speaker 2: right and still actively helping him to continue to abuse kids.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I don't buy Kintler's story here.
Speaker 4: Now.
Speaker 3: This is not enough of a turn and around to
Speaker 3: know any kind of redemption arc.
Speaker 2: You know, No, the happiest ending I can give you
Speaker 2: is to continue the story of Marco. When he left
Speaker 2: Henkel's home at age twenty one, he had nothing and
Speaker 2: nowhere to live. He spent nights homeless, sleeping on benches
Speaker 2: before a charity for homeless youth found him a subsidized apartment.
Speaker 2: Henkel had done so little to educate him that Marco
Speaker 2: didn't know that people had to pay for electricity. He
Speaker 2: stumbled through life for a while, picking up the basics
Speaker 2: of survival, but stuck in what he describes as a
Speaker 2: sort of hibernation. After five years, he began to feel
Speaker 2: as if he were a monster due to his lack
Speaker 2: of empathy and destructive outbursts. This culminated in a fight
Speaker 2: on a Berlin train when he noticed three men staring
Speaker 2: at him and just beat the shit out of them,
Speaker 2: sending one man to the er. Marco was horrified by
Speaker 2: himself and the way he interprets this is like I
Speaker 2: am turning into Hankel who abused me, and he made
Speaker 2: a commitment to change. Not long after this, he was
Speaker 2: walking down the street when a woman, a photographer, complimented
Speaker 2: his appearance and asked, do you want to do any
Speaker 2: modeling for me? Right? So he sat for some photos
Speaker 2: with her, and this didn't lead to any modeling work.
Speaker 2: But he becomes friends with this woman and he starts
Speaker 2: to meet other people through her, and he gets a
Speaker 2: fringe group.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: He describes the experience of learning how to have friends
Speaker 2: as similar to learning a foreign language through immersion in
Speaker 2: another culture.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: Eventually Marco met a woman, they got married, had children,
Speaker 2: and today he is a devoted father and family man.
Speaker 2: His very life is proof that Kentler and the other
Speaker 2: experts in the child' psychology of the era were wrong.
Speaker 2: Abused children are not condemned to a life where the
Speaker 2: oly people who might care for them are pedophiles. Right,
Speaker 2: people can recover from the most traumatic things imaginable if
Speaker 2: they are provided with the support and love necessary to
Speaker 2: enable healing. And thankfully Marco was. He makes friends, he
Speaker 2: develops relationships that are equal relationships with other adults, and
Speaker 2: he heals himself right, becomes a father, and like, it's
Speaker 2: the best possible ending that this guy has. And there's
Speaker 2: even this coda he gets when all of this stuff
Speaker 2: starts to come out, Like around twenty eighteen, Marco is
Speaker 2: contacted by a guy who works for alternative for Deutschland,
Speaker 2: Germany's far right party, as an advisor for education and
Speaker 2: cultural policy. And this guy Schwer reads about Marco in
Speaker 2: a Derschpiegel article in twenty eighteen about Kentler's experiment, and
Speaker 2: he's like, you know, he starts basically offering help from
Speaker 2: the AfD. He claimed it's not for political purposes, but
Speaker 2: like to really help him get justice from the parliament,
Speaker 2: right to like get some money out of them.
Speaker 3: So that he could be a poster boy for the
Speaker 3: far right.
Speaker 2: And that is what happened for a while. Right, the
Speaker 2: AfD holds stop Kintler's sex ed rallies to protest the
Speaker 2: way that sexuality is taught in German schools. They argue
Speaker 2: that Kintler's criminal pedophile spirit lives on unbroken in today's
Speaker 2: sexual education. While this is going on, Marco is, you know,
Speaker 2: taking this guy's help for a while. And eventually the
Speaker 2: German Senate authorizes fifty thousand euro payouts to Marco and
Speaker 2: Spin and I think to a couple of other abuse
Speaker 2: victims of Kinler's experiment. This is like, it's not common
Speaker 2: for there to be compensation for damages and significant amounts
Speaker 2: in Germany. In the same way it is in the US.
Speaker 2: This is like a scene is a significant amount after
Speaker 2: the Senate makes this basically and the Senate apologizes, right,
Speaker 2: so not only do they give them money, they're like, OK,
Speaker 2: this was bad, this was a fuck up. Christopher Schweer,
Speaker 2: the AfD advisor, advises Marco and Spinn to keep fighting
Speaker 2: at this point, to like basically be posters for this
Speaker 2: movement where you're basically where you're arguing. Kind of everything
Speaker 2: about sex said in Germany is based in Kintler and
Speaker 2: that's evil. Marco is like, well, I don't understand why
Speaker 2: I would do that. Like, we've got our wishes. There's
Speaker 2: no point in continuing to like fight the Senate. They
Speaker 2: did the thing that we wanted them to do, quote
Speaker 2: from The New Yorker. But Schweer kept pushing him. Marco said,
Speaker 2: Schweer denies this. Then I slowly got suspicious. That's Marco.
Speaker 2: I asked myself, what else should I want. That's when
Speaker 2: I got the feeling that the AfD just wants to
Speaker 2: use me to play me up, and I said, I
Speaker 2: don't want to be a political tool. I don't want
Speaker 2: to get pulled into an election campaign and it's just
Speaker 2: like it's remarkable to me, Like, how fucking dope this
Speaker 2: guy is, Like how strong you have to be to
Speaker 2: like make yourself into the man he became given what
Speaker 2: was done to him. It's a really remarkable story. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so I guess this bastard's episode ended with a cool
Speaker 2: person who did cool stuff. Yeah, congratulations Marco. Yeah, Oh,
Speaker 2: how are we feeling at the end of this all, Markret?
Speaker 3: I actually feel okay. So I expected to just feel
Speaker 3: absolutely awful, And it's not just it helps that you.
Speaker 3: I really appreciated you ending with something something a little positive,
Speaker 3: but also I like learned a lot in terms of
Speaker 3: you know, it's just like, oh, there's some bad people
Speaker 3: and they do bad stuff, right instead this like there's
Speaker 3: this thing that every ideology, like you're even in this
Speaker 3: where you're talking about like the left and the liberal
Speaker 3: government are two different ideologies, right, and both of these
Speaker 3: stories have had like pedophilia injected into them and then
Speaker 3: baked into an ideological structure. And one of them is
Speaker 3: the ideological structure of the foster care system, and the
Speaker 3: other is of the like kindergarten system of radicals or whatever.
Speaker 3: And so it's just like every ideology across the board.
Speaker 3: If there's a way that pedophiles can try to interchect
Speaker 3: their awful nightmare ideas into it, they like will and do,
Speaker 3: and so I appreciate watching that stop. I appreciate that,
Speaker 3: like feminist discourse was able to interject and say, hey,
Speaker 3: this is actually bad. And then like, and it's interesting
Speaker 3: because you mentioned the maybe Austrian or check or something,
Speaker 3: the guy who wrote the essay that was like, actually
Speaker 3: you can't have any consensual relationship.
Speaker 4: Who was that?
Speaker 3: One?
Speaker 2: Second Hungarian psychoanalyst Sandor Farinsky and so a Forrensy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, It's one of those things where it's like, you know,
Speaker 3: because I became an adult after that paper was written,
Speaker 3: I sort of take it for granted that well don't
Speaker 3: we know that? Yeah, But I'm like, I have been obvious, yeah,
Speaker 3: And I'm like, somehow wasn't. And I try not to
Speaker 3: always sit in judgment of the people of the past.
Speaker 3: But there's like some stuff where like slavery and pedophilia,
Speaker 3: where I'm like, sure, no, yeah, that was people and bad. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and lots of people knew it, you know, And actually
Speaker 3: slavery is like a weirdly comparable thing where like everyone's
Speaker 3: like every ideology came up with a way to make
Speaker 3: it okay, and then people of every ideology were like,
Speaker 3: well except certain ideologies that were just pro slavery or whatever,
Speaker 3: but like, yeah, overall people were like, I don't think
Speaker 3: you can like own a guy, and people like the
Speaker 3: Bible says you can own a guy, and other people
Speaker 3: be like, well, the Bible says fight to stop evils
Speaker 3: and your evil.
Speaker 2: I'm going to pick these paragraphs and not those ones, right, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm going to pick the I'm going to pick the
Speaker 2: the the theorists on the left to like, I'm going
Speaker 2: to pick the academic to recent Netwig who started who
Speaker 2: like lost a position in academia because she wanted to
Speaker 2: expose Kintler and not Kintler. You know you this is
Speaker 2: why again, you're you're rooting. If you're rooting everything in
Speaker 2: ideology to the point where you can't see anything else,
Speaker 2: it makes you vulnerable to this sort of thing. There
Speaker 2: should be you need, like you need like your own
Speaker 2: personal like you know, not not to I don't know
Speaker 2: the US government the way we do things. Obviously there's
Speaker 2: a lot of flaws. But one of the things that
Speaker 2: provide some protections that we have a bill of rights,
Speaker 2: and you kind of have to have a personal bill
Speaker 2: of like what are my lines politically totally morally what's
Speaker 2: not It's like, how I have a personal line that
Speaker 2: if you're killing children, I don't care why you're justifying it.
Speaker 2: I don't care if your political cause is righteous, I
Speaker 2: don't care if they're the basis kids, you shouldn't kill kids.
Speaker 3: That the people thought immediately, Yeah it's one of my lines, Yeah,
Speaker 3: don't kill children. And it like he gets into this
Speaker 3: awkward thing. We're like overall, I'm pretty prone out terms.
Speaker 3: And then I'm like, well, there's a thing where I
Speaker 3: would have disagreed real strongly.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think I would argue he was in a
Speaker 2: position where it was not possible for him to really
Speaker 2: take better actions because of what white slavery does to people.
Speaker 3: I think that's completely fair, and I am not like, yeah,
Speaker 3: I'm not coming out against not certain right.
Speaker 2: His desperation was like they were not going to win,
Speaker 2: and like, well what do you do?
Speaker 4: Then?
Speaker 2: You know, what do you do? Do you stop that?
Speaker 2: I don't know? This is all these things are messy.
Speaker 2: Morality is messy, but it's also easy to hold a
Speaker 2: line that says, I don't think it's okay to kill kids.
Speaker 2: I don't think adults should be fucking kids. These are
Speaker 2: not acceptable behaviors like child rape is not acceptable, child
Speaker 2: murder is not acceptable. My politics have to agree with
Speaker 2: my morals because those are removable, right.
Speaker 3: Right, And there's the difference between using an ideological label
Speaker 3: as your your definition versus your description. I have a
Speaker 3: set of things that I believe in, and those things
Speaker 3: map closest for me to what I would call anarchism, right, Yeah,
Speaker 3: but it's not I don't sit there at the end
Speaker 3: of the day and think, well, as an anarchist, what
Speaker 3: should I do? I think as me and what I believe,
Speaker 3: what do I do? And so if if the label,
Speaker 3: the label doesn't that's not what's important here. I don't pick,
Speaker 3: you know, even as like like a trans girl or whatever.
Speaker 3: I don't like wake up in the morning and be like,
Speaker 3: what does a trans girl do? I'm like, no, I
Speaker 3: do what I do. And then the closest gender label
Speaker 3: to what I do in my own head is transgirl.
Speaker 3: And yeah, that is we get so caught up in it.
Speaker 2: I think a root of when we talk about these
Speaker 2: The kind of middle part of these very uncomfortable episodes
Speaker 2: were all of these like German parents who didn't were
Speaker 2: uncomfortable with sexualizing their children, but thought they had to
Speaker 2: for ideological reasons. And when I when I, when I
Speaker 2: read about people doing that, it's like, oh, well, you
Speaker 2: don't know who you are. That's why you were, Well,
Speaker 2: you had no idea who you were, right, totally. You
Speaker 2: took on this ideology because it comfortingly gave you an identity,
Speaker 2: but you didn't. You hadn't figured out the person that
Speaker 2: you wear. You were using your ideology as an excuse
Speaker 2: to not do that, And that is again that makes
Speaker 2: you vulnerable about to stuff like this. You know you
Speaker 2: do even when you realize like, oh, how clearly, like
Speaker 2: certain things politically are obvious, you know, are obviously right,
Speaker 2: you know are obviously wrong. That doesn't that's not an
Speaker 2: excuse to not figure out who you are.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, and then the people who are against because
Speaker 3: right now in the US discourse, the people who are
Speaker 3: so actively against and militantly against pedophilia, the people who
Speaker 3: are claiming that are often these like far right people
Speaker 3: who are actually against like me existing and giving talks
Speaker 3: in public because I like wear a dress or something
Speaker 3: right and that, and so in some ways people are
Speaker 3: then becoming useful idiots because I listened to everything you're saying,
Speaker 3: and I'm like, man, I I sure wouldn't be sad
Speaker 3: if someone broke into that man's house and shot him
Speaker 3: to death.
Speaker 2: Now, but that would have been dope. Yeah, but several
Speaker 2: men in this story should have been murdered.
Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, and yeah, and what's hard is that, but
Speaker 4: you can also convince people that people need to get
Speaker 4: murdered as if they are the same as that thing,
Speaker 4: Like this is like part of why it's so aggravating
Speaker 4: when they're like, oh, they conflated it with like the
Speaker 4: Green Party conflating it with homosexuality, and so people are like, yeah,
Speaker 4: it's conflated, so kill all the gays and like, no,
Speaker 4: stop pedophilia.
Speaker 3: And if violence is necessary to stop it, I don't care,
Speaker 3: you know, but like it's so.
Speaker 2: I think this is as we deal with as we
Speaker 2: talked about the end of this, like the kind of
Speaker 2: the really bad faith right wing sort of how they
Speaker 2: make use of this while ignoring their own complicity and
Speaker 2: child molestation, which is constant both in religious organizations and
Speaker 2: stuff like Christian Organization's lobbying for child marriage right, which
Speaker 2: is the norm in the US. Bucking Ted Cruz is
Speaker 2: a big fan of children being able to get and
Speaker 2: that's supporting a kind of pedophilia. It is politically motivated abuse,
Speaker 2: you know, in the same way that these fucked up
Speaker 2: leftists are. But the fact that the right does this
Speaker 2: and has in the current period more political success doing
Speaker 2: this sort of thing doesn't mean we can ignore this history,
Speaker 2: because like it's important, not just maybe we're maybe we
Speaker 2: will never again have influential pedophiles on the left, you know,
Speaker 2: pushing through these kind of politics into like actual action.
Speaker 2: Maybe I don't know that I think that's made, but
Speaker 2: there will be and currently is in fact other things.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: This is why you have to like have certain immovable
Speaker 2: moral beliefs about what's okay to do to people, and
Speaker 2: why you also have to be willing to like like
Speaker 2: those academics we talked about who endured that harassment campaign
Speaker 2: when they were like, well, obviously it's wrong to rape children, right,
Speaker 2: They had zines made about them being evil. You know,
Speaker 2: You've got that fucking anarchist journalist being like these other
Speaker 2: they are anarchists who don't like what I'm doing. They
Speaker 2: don't really believe in lived anarchy, you know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, like like you know, what if that if I
Speaker 3: thought that was true, if I thought anarchy meant that,
Speaker 3: I wouldn't be an anarchist anymore. Not. Yes, of course
Speaker 3: the important thing here isn't the label.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but to the people who for whom the important
Speaker 2: thing is the label, hearing something like that can be
Speaker 2: a thought terminating phrase, Right, you're not practicing lived anarchy, Well,
Speaker 2: then you stop thinking about what the actual issues is,
Speaker 2: Like those guys molesting homeless kids, right, you start to
Speaker 2: think about, like, well, ideologically, where am I on that? No? No, no, no,
Speaker 2: just hit the.
Speaker 3: Guy, right, you know, like you're good totally Yeah, like
Speaker 3: three knives for the homeless kids.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, three knives were homeless kids.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Tell you, I never met anyone who practiced stabbing more
Speaker 3: than my when I was when I was a teenage
Speaker 3: street kid and one of my friends was a teenage
Speaker 3: sex working street kid. That kid was stabby and he
Speaker 3: probably learned to be. I hope he is alive and well.
Speaker 2: Mm hmm yep, and I hope uh he still has
Speaker 2: a knife, you.
Speaker 3: Know, if you want to read about teenage, can I
Speaker 3: have an awful segue into my yes?
Speaker 2: No, no, no, great?
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, you want to read about teenagers learning
Speaker 3: to find themselves and using medieval weaponry? I have a
Speaker 3: when I say ya book. It's actually a crossover book.
Speaker 3: It's a book that admits that its audience is also adults.
Speaker 3: And it's called The Sapling Cage and it is coming
Speaker 3: out from Feminist Press in September, but it has been
Speaker 3: kickstarted in June and you can sign up now on
Speaker 3: the kickstarter for more information about it. And Robert read it,
Speaker 3: and so before it has to be good. It's great
Speaker 3: book books.
Speaker 2: A lot of good spear talk in it, which I'm
Speaker 2: always a fan of. We need to renormalize the use
Speaker 2: of spears as a personal defense weapon.
Speaker 3: You know, the way in which some people in street
Speaker 3: demonstrations use long polls is a very similar thing. Spears
Speaker 3: are very good at making space.
Speaker 2: Yes, you need to be PELANX maxing with your friends
Speaker 2: and colleagues, right, you know, you need to be protecting,
Speaker 2: covering each other with your shield arm, moving as a unit,
Speaker 2: learning how to wheel on command, and preparing to face
Speaker 2: cavalry charges. These are the kind of things that the
Speaker 2: kids need to be into.
Speaker 3: All of those things for America, Watch out for the Cossacks.
Speaker 2: Watch out for the Cossacks. They're still around and they're
Speaker 2: not the original Cossacks. Those guys are actually fighting right now.
Speaker 2: Uh Anyway, Good.
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