WEBVTT - Part Two: The Darkest Episode We Will Ever Do 0:00:01.800 --> 0:00:02.880 Also media. 0:00:05.519 --> 0:00:13.280 Oh it's behind the Bastards still podcast, Bad People, Margaret Killjoy, 0:00:13.400 --> 0:00:17.639 Margaret Helmet, Kintler, bad guy. You could call him a 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:21.680 kind of like Philosopher. If he was Greek, his name 0:00:21.720 --> 0:00:27.160 would be Pedophilies. Robert, See, that was that was bad. 0:00:27.280 --> 0:00:28.760 It was just in my head. We just got to 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:30.760 you got to excise this stuff. You just got to 0:00:30.800 --> 0:00:31.800 exercise this stuff. 0:00:31.840 --> 0:00:34.240 You just exist to make guests look bad. 0:00:34.479 --> 0:00:41.960 I really, I don't know what what else can you say? 0:00:42.840 --> 0:00:44.600 Probably factual things. 0:00:44.400 --> 0:00:49.120 And not Robert is your guest soon on Cool People? 0:00:49.200 --> 0:00:52.280 Did cool Stuff? Start thinking of your revenge. 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:53.960 Oh that's a good point. 0:00:54.520 --> 0:00:58.080 Yeah. As the producer of both podcasts, I will help you. 0:00:58.160 --> 0:01:01.800 Well, just to give people a heads up. Robert did 0:01:01.800 --> 0:01:05.440 an episode about the Ukrainian anarchist Maknow, but I'm going 0:01:05.520 --> 0:01:09.360 to come in and tell him about the women who 0:01:09.840 --> 0:01:14.600 also did all that stuff. Yeah, so that's the Yeah, 0:01:14.640 --> 0:01:17.280 that's what they can can listen to. In a couple 0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:17.679 of weeks. 0:01:17.880 --> 0:01:19.200 I'm going to do I'm going to do a lot 0:01:19.240 --> 0:01:21.560 of that that borat my wife joke, but in my 0:01:21.600 --> 0:01:22.880 best Ukrainian accent. 0:01:23.120 --> 0:01:28.440 Oh oh, someone already that we had matt On uh ok, yeah. 0:01:27.440 --> 0:01:30.280 Well damn it all right, let's get back to the pedophiles. 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:35.320 So it's important to understand the intellectual environment in the 0:01:35.440 --> 0:01:38.000 left in Germany in which all of this shit with 0:01:38.120 --> 0:01:43.160 Kintler's horrible experimentation happened because Kintler's pedophile foster program, He's 0:01:43.200 --> 0:01:48.200 focusing on these kids who are the most deprived and 0:01:48.360 --> 0:01:52.440 like marginalized people in all of German society. Right, these 0:01:52.560 --> 0:01:56.320 these homeless children, But those are not the only kids 0:01:56.400 --> 0:02:01.440 being victimized or at least experiencing elements of victimization as 0:02:01.440 --> 0:02:05.440 a result of this like pedophile infiltration of the German 0:02:05.560 --> 0:02:10.320 left and this kind of conflation of sexual liberation with 0:02:10.480 --> 0:02:15.080 like child sexual liberation. Yeah, so research on all of 0:02:15.120 --> 0:02:18.720 this is Sketchy's not the right word, but it's like 0:02:19.280 --> 0:02:22.720 it's it's it's messy because it's problematically hard to fund 0:02:22.760 --> 0:02:25.280 any kind of research into pedophilia. But the common answer 0:02:25.280 --> 0:02:28.400 you'll get is that somewhere around one percent of the population, 0:02:28.639 --> 0:02:32.560 as like human population, are pedophiles. Right, it's kind of 0:02:32.600 --> 0:02:34.520 probably the top the high number in. 0:02:34.480 --> 0:02:36.720 Terms of their like sexual attraction pattern or whatever. 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:41.800 Yes, yes, so that's you know, a very small number 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:44.440 of people, but a lot of Berliners and a lot 0:02:44.440 --> 0:02:47.239 of members of like the New Left in Germany are 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:51.200 in West Germany are playing a role in institutionalizing pedophilic 0:02:51.240 --> 0:02:54.880 practices into childcare a lot more than that one percent. 0:02:55.200 --> 0:02:57.119 And so these people are doing it not because they 0:02:57.160 --> 0:03:00.360 themselves are attracted to children, but because they have bought 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:04.600 into a specific kind of sexual liberation ideology that guys 0:03:04.639 --> 0:03:07.760 like Kinler are pushing. A good example of this is 0:03:07.760 --> 0:03:11.040 the case of Commune two, a commune formed in the 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:13.839 summer of nineteen sixty seven by four men and three 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:17.040 women in an apartment in a street in Berlin. I 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:23.359 am not going to try and dissa it's geist Bruckstrassa. 0:03:23.639 --> 0:03:24.280 Maybe I did that. 0:03:24.360 --> 0:03:26.600 Okay, there's a little funny bee at the end, that's 0:03:26.639 --> 0:03:30.200 all I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So these four men 0:03:30.240 --> 0:03:33.760 and three women form this commune with two children, a 0:03:33.800 --> 0:03:35.920 three year old girl and a four year old boy. 0:03:36.360 --> 0:03:39.800 In nineteen seventy one, a leftist magazine called kurz Book 0:03:39.880 --> 0:03:43.800 published a full spread article about Commune two and particularly 0:03:43.880 --> 0:03:48.480 its experimentation in child sexual liberation. In an argument in 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:52.400 an article for Der Spiegel, Jan Fleischauer wrote, quote for 0:03:52.480 --> 0:03:55.680 the residents. The cohabitation experiment was an attempt to overcome 0:03:55.800 --> 0:03:59.800 all bourgeoisie constraints, which included everything from separate bank accounts 0:03:59.800 --> 0:04:02.840 and closed bathroom doors to fidelity within couples and the 0:04:02.840 --> 0:04:06.000 development of feelings of shame. The two children were raised 0:04:06.000 --> 0:04:08.360 by the group, which often meant no one paid much 0:04:08.400 --> 0:04:10.720 attention to them. Because the adults had made it their 0:04:10.720 --> 0:04:13.240 goal not just to tolerate, but in fact a firm 0:04:13.360 --> 0:04:17.120 child sexuality, they were not satisfied to simply act as 0:04:17.200 --> 0:04:20.960 passive observers. Kurz book seventeen that the issue of the 0:04:20.960 --> 0:04:23.880 magazine contained a series of poster sized photos under the 0:04:23.920 --> 0:04:27.800 headline love Play in the Children's Room. It depicted Nessim 0:04:27.800 --> 0:04:30.880 and Grisha, both naked. The oversized images are of the 0:04:30.920 --> 0:04:33.120 sort that one would expect to see in a magazine 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:36.880 for pedophiles today, certainly not in an influential publication of 0:04:36.920 --> 0:04:40.719 the leftist Intelligensia. The caption reads, Grisha walks over to 0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:43.400 the mirror, looks at her body, bends forward several times, 0:04:43.520 --> 0:04:46.719 encircling her buttocks with her hands, and says, look, my vagina. 0:04:48.720 --> 0:04:51.919 So what you're seeing here? This is not the same 0:04:52.000 --> 0:04:55.000 thing that Kinler's doing. It's certainly not as problematic as 0:04:55.000 --> 0:04:58.280 straight up saying we are handing poor kids to pedophiles because. 0:04:58.040 --> 0:05:00.599 Who else will love them? But this is also deeply 0:05:00.720 --> 0:05:05.200 problematic right now, Fleshower caught up with a former member 0:05:05.200 --> 0:05:07.120 of the commune who talked to her about how these 0:05:07.200 --> 0:05:10.920 kids had done. This former member told her that Nassim 0:05:11.000 --> 0:05:13.720 the Boy felt horror when asked about his time at 0:05:13.760 --> 0:05:16.479 the commune, but both he and Grecish seemed to have 0:05:16.520 --> 0:05:19.839 grown up into functional adults. Neither of them really expressed 0:05:19.839 --> 0:05:22.599 an interest in talking about their childhood, which is their right. 0:05:23.040 --> 0:05:25.080 I get the feeling they have a lot of anger, 0:05:25.680 --> 0:05:27.640 but not in the same way as the kids who 0:05:27.640 --> 0:05:30.400 were placed with pedophiles, probably because while the behavior of 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:33.560 the adults in the commune engaged in was unacceptable, I 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:38.440 don't think it involved actual sex, right, Okay, it is 0:05:38.600 --> 0:05:40.560 enough on that edge, and there are some people who 0:05:40.680 --> 0:05:44.640 argued for it. It may have I can't say for certain, right, 0:05:45.320 --> 0:05:48.720 this is a lot of these different experiments flirt at 0:05:48.720 --> 0:05:52.760 the edge of that. The word flirt is unfortunately literally 0:05:52.960 --> 0:05:56.080 it's really it's messy and will never know fully with 0:05:56.160 --> 0:05:58.919 all of this stuff, right, Commune two, though, was not 0:05:59.040 --> 0:06:02.479 an isolated experiment. It was a pilot project an anti 0:06:02.480 --> 0:06:05.760 authoritarian living that was seen as so successful it was 0:06:05.800 --> 0:06:08.800 followed by other private kindergartens. We talked about how all 0:06:08.800 --> 0:06:10.520 of these a lot of them are people, of a 0:06:10.560 --> 0:06:13.040 lot of them are like educators and academics are forming 0:06:13.080 --> 0:06:17.400 these like private kindergartens, which are basically like communal kindergarteners 0:06:17.400 --> 0:06:20.200 for groups of leftists with kids to like have their 0:06:20.200 --> 0:06:23.440 little kids in. Right, and these are experiments and anti 0:06:23.520 --> 0:06:27.719 authoritarian education. These are designed to break the kind of 0:06:27.880 --> 0:06:32.520 patterns that doctor Schreber and horror and like the Nazis 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:34.320 had put that we talked about in the first episodes 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:35.000 of this Right, and there. 0:06:34.920 --> 0:06:37.559 Are people who've done this really well. They just don't 0:06:37.600 --> 0:06:38.600 sleep with the children. 0:06:38.920 --> 0:06:41.000 And by the way, not all of these kinder lodens 0:06:41.000 --> 0:06:43.839 are places where children are slept with, right, I don't 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:46.160 think most of them were. But this is not a 0:06:46.320 --> 0:06:48.880 tiny chunk of them either. We're not even slept with 0:06:49.080 --> 0:06:52.800 where kids where child's sexual liberation is a topic of 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:55.680 like focus for the parents. Right, Okay, that's more accurate 0:06:55.680 --> 0:06:57.520 to say what we're talking about. This is not a 0:06:57.520 --> 0:07:01.240 case of they're talking. I'm just going to get into 0:07:01.279 --> 0:07:04.880 the story. This is really messy and complicated and there's 0:07:04.920 --> 0:07:19.840 a lot to discuss. So these centers, called kinder Lootens 0:07:19.960 --> 0:07:23.960 were essentially less extreme than the commune. They involved groups 0:07:23.960 --> 0:07:26.800 of parents collaborating and creating a learning space for groups 0:07:26.840 --> 0:07:29.560 of kids. These were not all the same, but in 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:32.760 many cases, weird ideas about sex sed were mixed with 0:07:32.920 --> 0:07:38.080 reasonable ideas for experimental childcare attempts to break the notably 0:07:38.160 --> 0:07:42.760 problematic authoritarian patterns in parenting that had been a part 0:07:42.800 --> 0:07:44.800 of the Nazi era right that had helped feed into 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:47.080 it parents. One of the things that people will do 0:07:47.160 --> 0:07:49.280 is like kid parents would take kids to protests, They 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:53.040 would engage children with political education not seen in normal schools. 0:07:53.080 --> 0:07:54.840 The idea was, you should be able to talk with 0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:57.080 kids about real issues in the world the way you 0:07:57.120 --> 0:08:00.400 would with an adult, not necessarily hiding this stuff from them. 0:08:00.520 --> 0:08:00.680 Right. 0:08:01.240 --> 0:08:03.200 The downside of that is that there was also this 0:08:03.280 --> 0:08:05.160 idea that, well, if we're going to treat kids like 0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:12.440 adults in one way, right, yeah. Alexander Schuller, an influential 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:15.320 figure in the kinder laden movement, claims that sex ed 0:08:15.480 --> 0:08:18.960 was the topic most discussed when parents would debate as 0:08:19.000 --> 0:08:21.640 to how they should make structure these things from Der 0:08:21.720 --> 0:08:25.560 Spiegel quote in nineteen sixty nine, Schuller, a sociologist, was 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:27.760 one of the founders of a kinder Lauden in Berlin's 0:08:28.360 --> 0:08:32.560 Wilmersdorf neighborhood. Like Schuller, the other parents were academics, journalists 0:08:32.640 --> 0:08:35.640 or university employees. A decided the upper middle class lot. 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:38.320 Schuller's two sons, four and five years old at the time, 0:08:38.400 --> 0:08:40.800 grew up without the customary rules and punishments of a 0:08:40.840 --> 0:08:43.720 government run day care facility, but the adults were soon 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:46.400 divided over the issue of sex. Some were determined to 0:08:46.480 --> 0:08:49.320 encourage their children to show when touch their genitalia, while 0:08:49.320 --> 0:08:51.920 the others were horrified by the idea. It was never 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:54.240 addressed quite that directly, but it was clear that in 0:08:54.280 --> 0:08:57.840 the end, sex with two female teachers was considered. Says Schuller, 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:00.840 I found it incredibly difficult to take a stance. I 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:03.120 felt that what we were trying to do was fundamentally correct, 0:09:03.120 --> 0:09:04.880 but when it came to this issue, I thought this 0:09:05.040 --> 0:09:07.839 is crazy, this just isn't right. But then I felt 0:09:07.880 --> 0:09:10.160 ashamed of thinking that way. I think many were in 0:09:10.200 --> 0:09:10.920 the same position. 0:09:11.960 --> 0:09:17.840 It's that justification for it on a core level. Yeah, 0:09:17.640 --> 0:09:21.000 the main thing is just don't do that, don't abuse people, yes, 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:24.160 and then yeah, especially child Then it's when. 0:09:24.040 --> 0:09:28.680 You start centering ideology, Yeah, before centering how you treat people. 0:09:28.920 --> 0:09:32.400 That not just this, but all problems start, right, And 0:09:32.480 --> 0:09:35.320 it takes a full year of debate. But thankfully in 0:09:35.360 --> 0:09:37.240 this case, the parents who are like, of course they 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:40.000 shouldn't sleep with the teachers did win. There was no 0:09:40.120 --> 0:09:44.200 sex in this kinder Loten. I get the feeling that 0:09:44.240 --> 0:09:47.160 in this case the parents who were talking about like 0:09:47.200 --> 0:09:50.679 who were suggesting effectively like sexually assaulted, like that they 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:54.320 were ideologically cooked, right, that they felt like this was 0:09:54.360 --> 0:09:56.800 the most radical thing they could do and that that 0:09:56.840 --> 0:10:00.160 would make them better leftists. I say this because it 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:03.600 doesn't sound like from Schuler's recollections, the teachers wanted to 0:10:03.600 --> 0:10:08.119 molest these kids, right, or that the parent who suggested 0:10:08.160 --> 0:10:11.720 it wanted to watch or participate. They just felt kind 0:10:11.720 --> 0:10:15.200 of vaguely that the experience would help craft more anti 0:10:15.200 --> 0:10:18.199 authoritarian youth. It is madness, right. 0:10:18.120 --> 0:10:20.120 Yeah, And Ye're right about how it's like it's been 0:10:20.120 --> 0:10:24.280 injected by pedophiles into this movement, and then everyone's like, fuck, 0:10:24.320 --> 0:10:27.520 do we have to become pedophiles? And then people are like, no, no. 0:10:27.600 --> 0:10:30.040 Of course we don't. And thankfully, in Shuler's case, the 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:33.800 people who are like no, of course not do win right. Yeah, 0:10:33.840 --> 0:10:36.800 And again somewhere in the sheet in that scene, in 0:10:36.840 --> 0:10:40.760 the broader Kinderlodden scene, there are real pedophiles consciously trying 0:10:40.760 --> 0:10:42.920 to craft a world where they can act with impunity. 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:46.439 An influential educational tool at the time was the Handbook 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:49.440 for Positive Child and Doctrination, which is a bad title 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:52.640 for a book. This is a nineteen sixty eight tract 0:10:52.640 --> 0:10:55.439 that claimed to help parents quote create a new person 0:10:55.760 --> 0:10:59.600 and argued children can learn to appreciate eroticism and sexual 0:10:59.600 --> 0:11:02.320 intercourse long before they are capable of understanding how a 0:11:02.440 --> 0:11:05.400 child is conceived. It is valuable for children to cuddle 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:08.000 with adults. It is no less valuable for sexual intercourse 0:11:08.040 --> 0:11:12.560 to occur during cuddling. And this is part of why 0:11:12.600 --> 0:11:15.920 I grounded these episodes by talking about how there was 0:11:15.960 --> 0:11:19.120 for generations and statitude that like, you do not make 0:11:19.280 --> 0:11:22.080 any contact with your children other than what is the 0:11:22.200 --> 0:11:27.920 minimal necessary to maintain their surviving right and the reaction 0:11:28.160 --> 0:11:32.840 to that goes in an equally insane direction. Right, Like 0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:35.240 it's not just well, of course parents should like hold 0:11:35.280 --> 0:11:38.880 their kids and express physical affection, but like it's fine 0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:42.520 of sex accurs, right, it's this, it's this rubber band 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:45.800 effect when you go in that's insane a direction. It's 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:48.440 like you should lock children alone in a room for 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:51.160 the first day of their life and never so much 0:11:51.200 --> 0:11:56.440 as like hug them. When you break that, you're going 0:11:56.480 --> 0:11:59.000 to wind up in an equally damaging place. 0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:02.959 And just one of the million reasons is so heartbreaking 0:12:03.120 --> 0:12:08.040 is that it's like it destroys the safety. Yeah, the 0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:11.280 whole point of that affection from a parent's arming. I'm 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:13.400 trying to get a super emotional about the whole point 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:16.439 of that emotion from the parent should be a non 0:12:16.640 --> 0:12:21.360 sexual safety, yeah, you know, and like showing what care 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:26.160 and love are divorced, like separate and safe from that 0:12:26.280 --> 0:12:30.680 kind of It's so I know everyone listening knows it's evil, 0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:31.280 but it's. 0:12:31.080 --> 0:12:35.040 Just it's this vile conflation of like children should have 0:12:35.120 --> 0:12:39.679 adults with whom they have a safe kind of intimacy 0:12:39.720 --> 0:12:44.160 that allows them to explore the world, and then twisting 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:48.920 that into children should be exploring their bodies with adults, 0:12:48.960 --> 0:12:52.800 which they should not be, right right, Like, it's this conflation. No, No, 0:12:52.960 --> 0:12:57.720 children need to have like a healthy intimate relationship with 0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:00.000 their parents or with the adults who are their caregives, 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:03.640 because that is how you have the security that allows 0:13:03.679 --> 0:13:08.320 you to go out into the world and meet it. Right. Yeah, Yeah, 0:13:08.440 --> 0:13:10.800 And obviously I think there's no way that handbook wasn't 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:13.400 written by a pedophile trying to provide cover for himself 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:15.360 and others like him it. But a lot of these 0:13:15.600 --> 0:13:19.640 very dumb parents did not catch that, and worse, awkwardly 0:13:19.720 --> 0:13:24.000 tried to live up to this supposedly revolutionary standard. Some 0:13:24.120 --> 0:13:28.040 leftist thinkers, like Monica Seyffert, a sociologist, were disturbed when 0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:30.560 the children in her kinder laden did not attempt to 0:13:30.559 --> 0:13:34.040 have sex with the adults. She concluded the inhibitions and 0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:37.600 insecurities of the adults had likely forced those children to 0:13:37.600 --> 0:13:41.320 suppress their sexual curiosity. She saw this as a failure. 0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:43.719 And what's happening here is that you have in a 0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:45.160 lot of these kids. This is why I say most 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:47.440 of these these people are not pedophiles who have bought 0:13:47.480 --> 0:13:52.280 into this cooked shit because you have these attitudes that like, well, 0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:56.000 these kids should feel confident sexually experimenting with adults, and 0:13:56.040 --> 0:13:59.520 it doesn't happen because that's not natural, right, because the 0:13:59.559 --> 0:14:01.920 adults don't want it, and neither do the kids. And 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:05.760 the most cooked of these intellectuals, like Seaford are like, well, 0:14:05.800 --> 0:14:06.920 clearly we have failed. 0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:11.720 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm looking at the equation that someone 0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:14.319 wrote and it's not happening in real life. Therefore real 0:14:14.360 --> 0:14:15.079 life is wrong. 0:14:15.520 --> 0:14:19.160 Yeah, exactly, exactly, Like this is not it's not naturally. 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:22.000 This is not a thing that happens between adults and children. 0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:24.720 It is a thing that has to be forced, which 0:14:24.760 --> 0:14:27.600 is proven in fact by this reaction, by how disappointed 0:14:27.600 --> 0:14:32.560 a lot of these these these academics and intellectuals are. Unfortunately, 0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:35.920 some of the parents were equally disappointed and took steps 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:39.920 to stimulate their children. Again, these are still mostly these 0:14:39.920 --> 0:14:42.400 are not mostly pedophile, so this behavior they're not like 0:14:42.880 --> 0:14:47.440 actually abusing the kids physically, but instead they tell a 0:14:47.480 --> 0:14:49.680 lot of weird sex jokes, and they make a point 0:14:49.720 --> 0:14:52.640 to use words like cock and vagina constantly in front 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:55.400 of kids. Schuller, who is like, this is kind of 0:14:55.400 --> 0:14:57.840 how Schuler's kinder laden. They were like, well, we won't 0:14:58.280 --> 0:15:02.600 have children molest students, but instead we'll use sexual terminology 0:15:02.600 --> 0:15:04.800 around them a lot and tell weird jokes that make 0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:08.320 them uncomfortable. Shuler, looking back on this decades later, claims 0:15:08.360 --> 0:15:11.120 his kids like, overall thought the kinder laden was a 0:15:11.120 --> 0:15:14.120 good experience, but quote, they thought the constant chatter about 0:15:14.120 --> 0:15:17.600 sex was horrible because that's a normal way for children 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:20.840 to feel about adults talking about that this way, right, well. 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:23.760 And actually and pointing out that everything else like yeah, 0:15:23.800 --> 0:15:27.080 it was injected into this otherwise really interesting and radical 0:15:27.120 --> 0:15:30.440 idea that was Yeah, otherwise good with this. 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:35.240 There's a clear problem in pedagogy in our society. Yeah, yeah, 0:15:35.240 --> 0:15:37.840 and it is interesting that like, yeah, the kids were like, well, 0:15:37.880 --> 0:15:40.600 the stuff about like you know, go into protests, learning 0:15:40.640 --> 0:15:43.920 about politics, having kind of like non authoritarian learning structure 0:15:44.000 --> 0:15:46.000 was great. I wish there hadn't been so many weird 0:15:46.040 --> 0:15:50.280 dick jokes. That was kind of bad. And I think 0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:53.720 Shuller's the experience of Schuler's kids does thankfully represent a 0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:56.880 majority of the kids exposed to this system, which is 0:15:56.920 --> 0:15:59.680 more what the fuck were our parents thinking than like 0:15:59.760 --> 0:16:03.320 dev stating trauma, Right, Yeah, that is the norm is like, boy, 0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:06.600 that was weird. They were fucking cooked, something was fucked 0:16:06.680 --> 0:16:10.360 up in their heads. Like Because most of these kids 0:16:10.440 --> 0:16:15.800 were not molested, right, But between Schuler's kids and Ulrich, 0:16:15.800 --> 0:16:18.080 who is the boy who Kinler gave to a pedophile, 0:16:18.400 --> 0:16:20.480 there were a lot of children who still did suffer 0:16:20.640 --> 0:16:23.760 different degrees of abuse. Right, not as severe as like 0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:27.520 a kid being fostered with a child molester, but on 0:16:27.680 --> 0:16:28.440 that spectrum. 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:28.680 Right. 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:32.040 Sophie Dannenberg was one of these children. Her parents were 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:34.600 members of the German Communist Party, and they sent her 0:16:34.600 --> 0:16:37.920 to a kinderladden in Geesen. As an adult, she interviewed 0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:40.440 her mother and other people from the kinderladen and wrote 0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:43.680 about their experiences in a novel with the excellent title 0:16:43.960 --> 0:16:47.520 The Pale Heart of the Revolution. Fly Shower writes of 0:16:47.560 --> 0:16:50.520 this book, the material she used includes an account of 0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:52.360 a parent's evening where one of the mothers said that 0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:54.280 she stripped naked in front of her sons so that 0:16:54.320 --> 0:16:56.960 he could inspect her. In the process, the woman spread 0:16:56.960 --> 0:16:59.440 her legs to expose her private parts for his inspection. 0:16:59.840 --> 0:17:02.160 The game ended when the boy stuck a pencil into 0:17:02.200 --> 0:17:05.240 his mother's vagina. The parents also spent a long time 0:17:05.280 --> 0:17:07.480 discussing whether it was a good idea to have sex 0:17:07.520 --> 0:17:10.480 with their own children so as to demonstrate the naturalness 0:17:10.520 --> 0:17:14.359 of sexual intercourse. Although the people Danenberg interview did not 0:17:14.400 --> 0:17:18.760 recall any instances of physical advances, they did describe softer 0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:22.000 forms of sexual assault, So there's pushy demands on children 0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:24.600 to show their naked bodies. In the novel, which is 0:17:24.640 --> 0:17:27.640 based on Dannenberg's research, the eight year old character Simone 0:17:27.640 --> 0:17:29.560 is told to strip in front of several adults and 0:17:29.600 --> 0:17:31.960 other children. Why do you want to hide yourself, the 0:17:32.000 --> 0:17:34.480 mother says, to the amusement of people standing around. When 0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:37.440 the child instinctively holds a pillow in front of her genitalia, 0:17:37.680 --> 0:17:40.400 it's a beautiful thing you have there, Show it to us. 0:17:43.520 --> 0:17:48.320 And yeah. Abuse is the closest app term to describe 0:17:48.359 --> 0:17:53.000 this totally. It doesn't quite describe how weird it is, right, 0:17:53.760 --> 0:17:57.159 but it's accurate enough. One author who studied this period, 0:17:57.280 --> 0:18:01.400 cited in der Spiegel's states that objectively speaking, this behavior 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:05.800 was child abuse, but writes kind of confusingly, subjectively it wasn't. 0:18:05.880 --> 0:18:08.800 And that's a weird statement. One I don't really fully 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:10.480 one I don't really agree with, but I want to 0:18:10.480 --> 0:18:13.960 continue fly Showers quote describing it, right, Okay, as outlandish 0:18:14.000 --> 0:18:16.560 as it seems in retrospect, the parents apparently had the 0:18:16.560 --> 0:18:20.000 welfare of the children in mind, not their own. For 0:18:20.080 --> 0:18:22.639 the adherence to the new movement, the child did not 0:18:22.720 --> 0:18:24.960 serve as a sex object to provide the adults with 0:18:25.000 --> 0:18:29.359 a means of satisfying their sexual urges. This differentiates politically 0:18:29.400 --> 0:18:34.120 motivated abuse from pedophilia, and that's an interesting concept, politically 0:18:34.200 --> 0:18:36.080 motivated child abuse, right. 0:18:36.800 --> 0:18:40.679 It's also not as much behind closed doors, right, and 0:18:40.720 --> 0:18:44.040 so we actually probably weirdly know more about it than 0:18:44.200 --> 0:18:47.640 like the Catholic Church sex abuse or yes. 0:18:47.600 --> 0:18:47.679 The. 0:18:50.720 --> 0:18:54.040 Mother Winter. Yeah, yeah, it makes me angry because that's 0:18:54.040 --> 0:18:56.720 a good name for a weird old you know, mother. 0:18:56.960 --> 0:19:01.919 Yeah, it's very a lot of this. It's interesting to 0:19:01.920 --> 0:19:04.959 me kind of making that distinction that, like, well, because 0:19:05.200 --> 0:19:06.960 what you get with a lot of is these parents 0:19:06.960 --> 0:19:10.399 who are abusing their kids don't like what they're doing, 0:19:10.960 --> 0:19:14.360 are personally uncomfortable with it, and feel bad that they 0:19:14.359 --> 0:19:16.240 don't feel better about doing it. 0:19:16.960 --> 0:19:19.920 Yeah, because and they're like, oh, it's because I'm bourgeois. 0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:24.919 But the next generation be true. This yeah, fuck, cooked 0:19:24.960 --> 0:19:26.359 is the right word, Cooked is. 0:19:26.320 --> 0:19:29.120 The right wall. This is where this is a problem. 0:19:29.200 --> 0:19:32.520 You get all over the fucking map when it comes 0:19:32.560 --> 0:19:35.399 to radical polic The Nazis were obviously trying to create 0:19:35.480 --> 0:19:38.480 a new kind of man, right, They write about that constantly. 0:19:38.760 --> 0:19:42.240 There was also this concept of the new Soviet man, right, Yeah, 0:19:42.480 --> 0:19:45.760 And there's often left and right in radical politics, this 0:19:45.880 --> 0:19:49.159 idea that like, in order to make the world that 0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:51.679 is possible, the better world that's possible, we have to 0:19:51.720 --> 0:19:55.000 remake people. And I kind of think you're always doomed 0:19:55.040 --> 0:19:58.320 and wrong if that's your goal, because people don't need 0:19:58.359 --> 0:20:02.080 to be remade. You have to meet people where they 0:20:02.080 --> 0:20:05.160 are and make their lives and thus the world better. 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:08.200 And if you if your goal is to like change 0:20:08.280 --> 0:20:11.280 what people, if you think that's what you're doing, there's 0:20:11.359 --> 0:20:14.520 so much evil that will be justified as part of 0:20:14.560 --> 0:20:16.840 that process, no matter how good your goals are, right, 0:20:17.480 --> 0:20:20.920 because it's a bad thing to what to do? 0:20:22.200 --> 0:20:25.560 I know, And it's like, it's still important to improve pedagogy, 0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:30.679 it's still important to raise kids less authoritarianly and so 0:20:30.760 --> 0:20:36.240 that they're more inoculated against tars. But like, but yeah, 0:20:36.320 --> 0:20:39.800 not to it's like it's the difficult puts the wheat 0:20:40.160 --> 0:20:42.720 into the cold to be like it'll become cold tolerant 0:20:43.160 --> 0:20:43.800 all seeds. 0:20:44.720 --> 0:20:48.639 It's it's the difference between saying, wow, for generations, parents 0:20:48.680 --> 0:20:52.160 wouldn't even hug their kids and we wound up as Nazis. 0:20:52.520 --> 0:20:55.879 We should probably like it. We were abusing our kids 0:20:55.880 --> 0:20:58.560 for generations, and we should find ways to raise them 0:20:58.560 --> 0:21:02.360 that are less abusive. Instead, it's they may we need 0:21:02.400 --> 0:21:07.960 to remake our children so that they can almost so 0:21:08.040 --> 0:21:10.760 that they can like remedy the sins of the past. 0:21:11.520 --> 0:21:13.520 It's which are two different things. Saying that, like, we 0:21:13.560 --> 0:21:15.600 should not abuse kids the way that we were is 0:21:15.600 --> 0:21:20.440 different from saying we need to make different people, right, 0:21:20.680 --> 0:21:23.840 we need to be producing different kinds of people like you. 0:21:23.920 --> 0:21:26.600 No, that's actually really interesting because it's like we're always 0:21:27.119 --> 0:21:29.200 oh gen Z is gonna save us, and now it's 0:21:29.240 --> 0:21:32.960 already like, oh jen A is that finally? Yeah, the 0:21:33.000 --> 0:21:37.600 alphas have got it. Yeah, we woke you know generation. 0:21:37.840 --> 0:21:40.760 And it's a little bit like what's getting ourselves off 0:21:40.760 --> 0:21:43.960 the hook? Yeah, Like, yeah, I objectively have fewer ears 0:21:44.000 --> 0:21:46.119 left ahead of me probably, but then you know, so 0:21:46.440 --> 0:21:48.320 maybe it's more on me than it is on the 0:21:48.320 --> 0:21:49.040 fucking youth. 0:21:49.400 --> 0:21:53.160 Yeah. Yeah, and maybe it's on people to figure out 0:21:53.160 --> 0:21:55.199 how to make the world better and that that's a 0:21:55.240 --> 0:21:57.840 better place to start than making people better. Yes, right, 0:21:57.880 --> 0:22:01.440 because if your goal is to make people better, yeah, 0:22:01.480 --> 0:22:04.639 you're usually going to do something terrible. You're usually going 0:22:04.720 --> 0:22:06.640