1
00:00:01,800 --> 00:00:02,880
Speaker 1: Also media.

2
00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:13,280
Speaker 2: Oh it's behind the Bastards still podcast, Bad People, Margaret Killjoy,

3
00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:17,639
Speaker 2: Margaret Helmet, Kintler, bad guy. You could call him a

4
00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:21,680
Speaker 2: kind of like Philosopher. If he was Greek, his name

5
00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:27,160
Speaker 2: would be Pedophilies. Robert, See, that was that was bad.

6
00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:28,760
Speaker 2: It was just in my head. We just got to

7
00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:30,760
Speaker 2: you got to excise this stuff. You just got to

8
00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:31,800
Speaker 2: exercise this stuff.

9
00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:34,240
Speaker 3: You just exist to make guests look bad.

10
00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:41,960
Speaker 2: I really, I don't know what what else can you say?

11
00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:44,600
Speaker 2: Probably factual things.

12
00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:49,120
Speaker 1: And not Robert is your guest soon on Cool People?

13
00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:52,280
Speaker 1: Did cool Stuff? Start thinking of your revenge.

14
00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:53,960
Speaker 3: Oh that's a good point.

15
00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:58,080
Speaker 1: Yeah. As the producer of both podcasts, I will help you.

16
00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:01,800
Speaker 3: Well, just to give people a heads up. Robert did

17
00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:05,440
Speaker 3: an episode about the Ukrainian anarchist Maknow, but I'm going

18
00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:09,360
Speaker 3: to come in and tell him about the women who

19
00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:14,600
Speaker 3: also did all that stuff. Yeah, so that's the Yeah,

20
00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:17,280
Speaker 3: that's what they can can listen to. In a couple

21
00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:17,679
Speaker 3: of weeks.

22
00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:19,200
Speaker 2: I'm going to do I'm going to do a lot

23
00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:21,560
Speaker 2: of that that borat my wife joke, but in my

24
00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:22,880
Speaker 2: best Ukrainian accent.

25
00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:28,440
Speaker 3: Oh oh, someone already that we had matt On uh ok, yeah.

26
00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:30,280
Speaker 2: Well damn it all right, let's get back to the pedophiles.

27
00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:35,320
Speaker 2: So it's important to understand the intellectual environment in the

28
00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:38,000
Speaker 2: left in Germany in which all of this shit with

29
00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:43,160
Speaker 2: Kintler's horrible experimentation happened because Kintler's pedophile foster program, He's

30
00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:48,200
Speaker 2: focusing on these kids who are the most deprived and

31
00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:52,440
Speaker 2: like marginalized people in all of German society. Right, these

32
00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:56,320
Speaker 2: these homeless children, But those are not the only kids

33
00:01:56,400 --> 00:02:01,440
Speaker 2: being victimized or at least experiencing elements of victimization as

34
00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:05,440
Speaker 2: a result of this like pedophile infiltration of the German

35
00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:10,320
Speaker 2: left and this kind of conflation of sexual liberation with

36
00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:15,080
Speaker 2: like child sexual liberation. Yeah, so research on all of

37
00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:18,720
Speaker 2: this is Sketchy's not the right word, but it's like

38
00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:22,720
Speaker 2: it's it's it's messy because it's problematically hard to fund

39
00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:25,280
Speaker 2: any kind of research into pedophilia. But the common answer

40
00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:28,400
Speaker 2: you'll get is that somewhere around one percent of the population,

41
00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:32,560
Speaker 2: as like human population, are pedophiles. Right, it's kind of

42
00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:34,520
Speaker 2: probably the top the high number in.

43
00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:36,720
Speaker 3: Terms of their like sexual attraction pattern or whatever.

44
00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:41,800
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, so that's you know, a very small number

45
00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:44,440
Speaker 2: of people, but a lot of Berliners and a lot

46
00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:47,239
Speaker 2: of members of like the New Left in Germany are

47
00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:51,200
Speaker 2: in West Germany are playing a role in institutionalizing pedophilic

48
00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:54,880
Speaker 2: practices into childcare a lot more than that one percent.

49
00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:57,119
Speaker 2: And so these people are doing it not because they

50
00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:00,360
Speaker 2: themselves are attracted to children, but because they have bought

51
00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:04,600
Speaker 2: into a specific kind of sexual liberation ideology that guys

52
00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:07,760
Speaker 2: like Kinler are pushing. A good example of this is

53
00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:11,040
Speaker 2: the case of Commune two, a commune formed in the

54
00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:13,839
Speaker 2: summer of nineteen sixty seven by four men and three

55
00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:17,040
Speaker 2: women in an apartment in a street in Berlin. I

56
00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:23,359
Speaker 2: am not going to try and dissa it's geist Bruckstrassa.

57
00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:24,280
Speaker 2: Maybe I did that.

58
00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:26,600
Speaker 3: Okay, there's a little funny bee at the end, that's

59
00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:30,200
Speaker 3: all I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So these four men

60
00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:33,760
Speaker 3: and three women form this commune with two children, a

61
00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:35,920
Speaker 3: three year old girl and a four year old boy.

62
00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:39,800
Speaker 3: In nineteen seventy one, a leftist magazine called kurz Book

63
00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:43,800
Speaker 3: published a full spread article about Commune two and particularly

64
00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:48,480
Speaker 3: its experimentation in child sexual liberation. In an argument in

65
00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:52,400
Speaker 3: an article for Der Spiegel, Jan Fleischauer wrote, quote for

66
00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:55,680
Speaker 3: the residents. The cohabitation experiment was an attempt to overcome

67
00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:59,800
Speaker 3: all bourgeoisie constraints, which included everything from separate bank accounts

68
00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:02,840
Speaker 3: and closed bathroom doors to fidelity within couples and the

69
00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:06,000
Speaker 3: development of feelings of shame. The two children were raised

70
00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,360
Speaker 3: by the group, which often meant no one paid much

71
00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:10,720
Speaker 3: attention to them. Because the adults had made it their

72
00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:13,240
Speaker 3: goal not just to tolerate, but in fact a firm

73
00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:17,120
Speaker 3: child sexuality, they were not satisfied to simply act as

74
00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:20,960
Speaker 3: passive observers. Kurz book seventeen that the issue of the

75
00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:23,880
Speaker 3: magazine contained a series of poster sized photos under the

76
00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:27,800
Speaker 3: headline love Play in the Children's Room. It depicted Nessim

77
00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:30,880
Speaker 3: and Grisha, both naked. The oversized images are of the

78
00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:33,120
Speaker 3: sort that one would expect to see in a magazine

79
00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:36,880
Speaker 3: for pedophiles today, certainly not in an influential publication of

80
00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:40,719
Speaker 3: the leftist Intelligensia. The caption reads, Grisha walks over to

81
00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:43,400
Speaker 3: the mirror, looks at her body, bends forward several times,

82
00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:46,719
Speaker 3: encircling her buttocks with her hands, and says, look, my vagina.

83
00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:51,919
Speaker 3: So what you're seeing here? This is not the same

84
00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:55,000
Speaker 3: thing that Kinler's doing. It's certainly not as problematic as

85
00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:58,280
Speaker 3: straight up saying we are handing poor kids to pedophiles because.

86
00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:00,599
Speaker 2: Who else will love them? But this is also deeply

87
00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:05,200
Speaker 2: problematic right now, Fleshower caught up with a former member

88
00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:07,120
Speaker 2: of the commune who talked to her about how these

89
00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:10,920
Speaker 2: kids had done. This former member told her that Nassim

90
00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:13,720
Speaker 2: the Boy felt horror when asked about his time at

91
00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:16,479
Speaker 2: the commune, but both he and Grecish seemed to have

92
00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:19,839
Speaker 2: grown up into functional adults. Neither of them really expressed

93
00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:22,599
Speaker 2: an interest in talking about their childhood, which is their right.

94
00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:25,080
Speaker 2: I get the feeling they have a lot of anger,

95
00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:27,640
Speaker 2: but not in the same way as the kids who

96
00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:30,400
Speaker 2: were placed with pedophiles, probably because while the behavior of

97
00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,560
Speaker 2: the adults in the commune engaged in was unacceptable, I

98
00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:38,440
Speaker 2: don't think it involved actual sex, right, Okay, it is

99
00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:40,560
Speaker 2: enough on that edge, and there are some people who

100
00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:44,640
Speaker 2: argued for it. It may have I can't say for certain, right,

101
00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:48,720
Speaker 2: this is a lot of these different experiments flirt at

102
00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:52,760
Speaker 2: the edge of that. The word flirt is unfortunately literally

103
00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:56,080
Speaker 2: it's really it's messy and will never know fully with

104
00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:58,919
Speaker 2: all of this stuff, right, Commune two, though, was not

105
00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:02,479
Speaker 2: an isolated experiment. It was a pilot project an anti

106
00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:05,760
Speaker 2: authoritarian living that was seen as so successful it was

107
00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:08,800
Speaker 2: followed by other private kindergartens. We talked about how all

108
00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:10,520
Speaker 2: of these a lot of them are people, of a

109
00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:13,040
Speaker 2: lot of them are like educators and academics are forming

110
00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:17,400
Speaker 2: these like private kindergartens, which are basically like communal kindergarteners

111
00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:20,200
Speaker 2: for groups of leftists with kids to like have their

112
00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:23,440
Speaker 2: little kids in. Right, and these are experiments and anti

113
00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:27,719
Speaker 2: authoritarian education. These are designed to break the kind of

114
00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:32,520
Speaker 2: patterns that doctor Schreber and horror and like the Nazis

115
00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:34,320
Speaker 2: had put that we talked about in the first episodes

116
00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:35,000
Speaker 2: of this Right, and there.

117
00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:37,559
Speaker 3: Are people who've done this really well. They just don't

118
00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:38,600
Speaker 3: sleep with the children.

119
00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:41,000
Speaker 2: And by the way, not all of these kinder lodens

120
00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:43,839
Speaker 2: are places where children are slept with, right, I don't

121
00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:46,160
Speaker 2: think most of them were. But this is not a

122
00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:48,880
Speaker 2: tiny chunk of them either. We're not even slept with

123
00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:52,800
Speaker 2: where kids where child's sexual liberation is a topic of

124
00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:55,680
Speaker 2: like focus for the parents. Right, Okay, that's more accurate

125
00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:57,520
Speaker 2: to say what we're talking about. This is not a

126
00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:01,240
Speaker 2: case of they're talking. I'm just going to get into

127
00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:04,880
Speaker 2: the story. This is really messy and complicated and there's

128
00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:19,840
Speaker 2: a lot to discuss. So these centers, called kinder Lootens

129
00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:23,960
Speaker 2: were essentially less extreme than the commune. They involved groups

130
00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:26,800
Speaker 2: of parents collaborating and creating a learning space for groups

131
00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:29,560
Speaker 2: of kids. These were not all the same, but in

132
00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:32,760
Speaker 2: many cases, weird ideas about sex sed were mixed with

133
00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:38,080
Speaker 2: reasonable ideas for experimental childcare attempts to break the notably

134
00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:42,760
Speaker 2: problematic authoritarian patterns in parenting that had been a part

135
00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:44,800
Speaker 2: of the Nazi era right that had helped feed into

136
00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:47,080
Speaker 2: it parents. One of the things that people will do

137
00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:49,280
Speaker 2: is like kid parents would take kids to protests, They

138
00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:53,040
Speaker 2: would engage children with political education not seen in normal schools.

139
00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:54,840
Speaker 2: The idea was, you should be able to talk with

140
00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:57,080
Speaker 2: kids about real issues in the world the way you

141
00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:00,400
Speaker 2: would with an adult, not necessarily hiding this stuff from them.

142
00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:00,680
Speaker 3: Right.

143
00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:03,200
Speaker 2: The downside of that is that there was also this

144
00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:05,160
Speaker 2: idea that, well, if we're going to treat kids like

145
00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:12,440
Speaker 2: adults in one way, right, yeah. Alexander Schuller, an influential

146
00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:15,320
Speaker 2: figure in the kinder laden movement, claims that sex ed

147
00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:18,960
Speaker 2: was the topic most discussed when parents would debate as

148
00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:21,640
Speaker 2: to how they should make structure these things from Der

149
00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:25,560
Speaker 2: Spiegel quote in nineteen sixty nine, Schuller, a sociologist, was

150
00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:27,760
Speaker 2: one of the founders of a kinder Lauden in Berlin's

151
00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:32,560
Speaker 2: Wilmersdorf neighborhood. Like Schuller, the other parents were academics, journalists

152
00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:35,640
Speaker 2: or university employees. A decided the upper middle class lot.

153
00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:38,320
Speaker 2: Schuller's two sons, four and five years old at the time,

154
00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:40,800
Speaker 2: grew up without the customary rules and punishments of a

155
00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:43,720
Speaker 2: government run day care facility, but the adults were soon

156
00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:46,400
Speaker 2: divided over the issue of sex. Some were determined to

157
00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:49,320
Speaker 2: encourage their children to show when touch their genitalia, while

158
00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:51,920
Speaker 2: the others were horrified by the idea. It was never

159
00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:54,240
Speaker 2: addressed quite that directly, but it was clear that in

160
00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:57,840
Speaker 2: the end, sex with two female teachers was considered. Says Schuller,

161
00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:00,840
Speaker 2: I found it incredibly difficult to take a stance. I

162
00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:03,120
Speaker 2: felt that what we were trying to do was fundamentally correct,

163
00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:04,880
Speaker 2: but when it came to this issue, I thought this

164
00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:07,839
Speaker 2: is crazy, this just isn't right. But then I felt

165
00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:10,160
Speaker 2: ashamed of thinking that way. I think many were in

166
00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:10,920
Speaker 2: the same position.

167
00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:17,840
Speaker 3: It's that justification for it on a core level. Yeah,

168
00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:21,000
Speaker 3: the main thing is just don't do that, don't abuse people, yes,

169
00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:24,160
Speaker 3: and then yeah, especially child Then it's when.

170
00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:28,680
Speaker 2: You start centering ideology, Yeah, before centering how you treat people.

171
00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:32,400
Speaker 2: That not just this, but all problems start, right, And

172
00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:35,320
Speaker 2: it takes a full year of debate. But thankfully in

173
00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:37,240
Speaker 2: this case, the parents who are like, of course they

174
00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:40,000
Speaker 2: shouldn't sleep with the teachers did win. There was no

175
00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:44,200
Speaker 2: sex in this kinder Loten. I get the feeling that

176
00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:47,160
Speaker 2: in this case the parents who were talking about like

177
00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:50,679
Speaker 2: who were suggesting effectively like sexually assaulted, like that they

178
00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:54,320
Speaker 2: were ideologically cooked, right, that they felt like this was

179
00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:56,800
Speaker 2: the most radical thing they could do and that that

180
00:09:56,840 --> 00:10:00,160
Speaker 2: would make them better leftists. I say this because it

181
00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:03,600
Speaker 2: doesn't sound like from Schuler's recollections, the teachers wanted to

182
00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:08,119
Speaker 2: molest these kids, right, or that the parent who suggested

183
00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:11,720
Speaker 2: it wanted to watch or participate. They just felt kind

184
00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:15,200
Speaker 2: of vaguely that the experience would help craft more anti

185
00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:18,199
Speaker 2: authoritarian youth. It is madness, right.

186
00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:20,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, And Ye're right about how it's like it's been

187
00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:24,280
Speaker 3: injected by pedophiles into this movement, and then everyone's like, fuck,

188
00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:27,520
Speaker 3: do we have to become pedophiles? And then people are like, no, no.

189
00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:30,040
Speaker 2: Of course we don't. And thankfully, in Shuler's case, the

190
00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:33,800
Speaker 2: people who are like no, of course not do win right. Yeah,

191
00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:36,800
Speaker 2: And again somewhere in the sheet in that scene, in

192
00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:40,760
Speaker 2: the broader Kinderlodden scene, there are real pedophiles consciously trying

193
00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:42,920
Speaker 2: to craft a world where they can act with impunity.

194
00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:46,439
Speaker 2: An influential educational tool at the time was the Handbook

195
00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,440
Speaker 2: for Positive Child and Doctrination, which is a bad title

196
00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:52,640
Speaker 2: for a book. This is a nineteen sixty eight tract

197
00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:55,439
Speaker 2: that claimed to help parents quote create a new person

198
00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:59,600
Speaker 2: and argued children can learn to appreciate eroticism and sexual

199
00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:02,320
Speaker 2: intercourse long before they are capable of understanding how a

200
00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:05,400
Speaker 2: child is conceived. It is valuable for children to cuddle

201
00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:08,000
Speaker 2: with adults. It is no less valuable for sexual intercourse

202
00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:12,560
Speaker 2: to occur during cuddling. And this is part of why

203
00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,920
Speaker 2: I grounded these episodes by talking about how there was

204
00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:19,120
Speaker 2: for generations and statitude that like, you do not make

205
00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:22,080
Speaker 2: any contact with your children other than what is the

206
00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:27,920
Speaker 2: minimal necessary to maintain their surviving right and the reaction

207
00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:32,840
Speaker 2: to that goes in an equally insane direction. Right, Like

208
00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:35,240
Speaker 2: it's not just well, of course parents should like hold

209
00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:38,880
Speaker 2: their kids and express physical affection, but like it's fine

210
00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:42,520
Speaker 2: of sex accurs, right, it's this, it's this rubber band

211
00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:45,800
Speaker 2: effect when you go in that's insane a direction. It's

212
00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:48,440
Speaker 2: like you should lock children alone in a room for

213
00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:51,160
Speaker 2: the first day of their life and never so much

214
00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:56,440
Speaker 2: as like hug them. When you break that, you're going

215
00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:59,000
Speaker 2: to wind up in an equally damaging place.

216
00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:02,959
Speaker 3: And just one of the million reasons is so heartbreaking

217
00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:08,040
Speaker 3: is that it's like it destroys the safety. Yeah, the

218
00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,280
Speaker 3: whole point of that affection from a parent's arming. I'm

219
00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:13,400
Speaker 3: trying to get a super emotional about the whole point

220
00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:16,439
Speaker 3: of that emotion from the parent should be a non

221
00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:21,360
Speaker 3: sexual safety, yeah, you know, and like showing what care

222
00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:26,160
Speaker 3: and love are divorced, like separate and safe from that

223
00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:30,680
Speaker 3: kind of It's so I know everyone listening knows it's evil,

224
00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:31,280
Speaker 3: but it's.

225
00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:35,040
Speaker 2: Just it's this vile conflation of like children should have

226
00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:39,679
Speaker 2: adults with whom they have a safe kind of intimacy

227
00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:44,160
Speaker 2: that allows them to explore the world, and then twisting

228
00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:48,920
Speaker 2: that into children should be exploring their bodies with adults,

229
00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:52,800
Speaker 2: which they should not be, right right, Like, it's this conflation. No, No,

230
00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:57,720
Speaker 2: children need to have like a healthy intimate relationship with

231
00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:00,000
Speaker 2: their parents or with the adults who are their caregives,

232
00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:03,640
Speaker 2: because that is how you have the security that allows

233
00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:08,320
Speaker 2: you to go out into the world and meet it. Right. Yeah, Yeah,

234
00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:10,800
Speaker 2: And obviously I think there's no way that handbook wasn't

235
00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:13,400
Speaker 2: written by a pedophile trying to provide cover for himself

236
00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:15,360
Speaker 2: and others like him it. But a lot of these

237
00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:19,640
Speaker 2: very dumb parents did not catch that, and worse, awkwardly

238
00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:24,000
Speaker 2: tried to live up to this supposedly revolutionary standard. Some

239
00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:28,040
Speaker 2: leftist thinkers, like Monica Seyffert, a sociologist, were disturbed when

240
00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:30,560
Speaker 2: the children in her kinder laden did not attempt to

241
00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:34,040
Speaker 2: have sex with the adults. She concluded the inhibitions and

242
00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:37,600
Speaker 2: insecurities of the adults had likely forced those children to

243
00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:41,320
Speaker 2: suppress their sexual curiosity. She saw this as a failure.

244
00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:43,719
Speaker 2: And what's happening here is that you have in a

245
00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:45,160
Speaker 2: lot of these kids. This is why I say most

246
00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:47,440
Speaker 2: of these these people are not pedophiles who have bought

247
00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:52,280
Speaker 2: into this cooked shit because you have these attitudes that like, well,

248
00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:56,000
Speaker 2: these kids should feel confident sexually experimenting with adults, and

249
00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:59,520
Speaker 2: it doesn't happen because that's not natural, right, because the

250
00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:01,920
Speaker 2: adults don't want it, and neither do the kids. And

251
00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:05,760
Speaker 2: the most cooked of these intellectuals, like Seaford are like, well,

252
00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:06,920
Speaker 2: clearly we have failed.

253
00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:11,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm looking at the equation that someone

254
00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:14,319
Speaker 3: wrote and it's not happening in real life. Therefore real

255
00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:15,079
Speaker 3: life is wrong.

256
00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:19,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, exactly, Like this is not it's not naturally.

257
00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,000
Speaker 2: This is not a thing that happens between adults and children.

258
00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:24,720
Speaker 2: It is a thing that has to be forced, which

259
00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:27,600
Speaker 2: is proven in fact by this reaction, by how disappointed

260
00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:32,560
Speaker 2: a lot of these these these academics and intellectuals are. Unfortunately,

261
00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:35,920
Speaker 2: some of the parents were equally disappointed and took steps

262
00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:39,920
Speaker 2: to stimulate their children. Again, these are still mostly these

263
00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:42,400
Speaker 2: are not mostly pedophile, so this behavior they're not like

264
00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:47,440
Speaker 2: actually abusing the kids physically, but instead they tell a

265
00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:49,680
Speaker 2: lot of weird sex jokes, and they make a point

266
00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:52,640
Speaker 2: to use words like cock and vagina constantly in front

267
00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,400
Speaker 2: of kids. Schuller, who is like, this is kind of

268
00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:57,840
Speaker 2: how Schuler's kinder laden. They were like, well, we won't

269
00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:02,600
Speaker 2: have children molest students, but instead we'll use sexual terminology

270
00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:04,800
Speaker 2: around them a lot and tell weird jokes that make

271
00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:08,320
Speaker 2: them uncomfortable. Shuler, looking back on this decades later, claims

272
00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:11,120
Speaker 2: his kids like, overall thought the kinder laden was a

273
00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:14,120
Speaker 2: good experience, but quote, they thought the constant chatter about

274
00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:17,600
Speaker 2: sex was horrible because that's a normal way for children

275
00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:20,840
Speaker 2: to feel about adults talking about that this way, right, well.

276
00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:23,760
Speaker 3: And actually and pointing out that everything else like yeah,

277
00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:27,080
Speaker 3: it was injected into this otherwise really interesting and radical

278
00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:30,440
Speaker 3: idea that was Yeah, otherwise good with this.

279
00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:35,240
Speaker 2: There's a clear problem in pedagogy in our society. Yeah, yeah,

280
00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:37,840
Speaker 2: and it is interesting that like, yeah, the kids were like, well,

281
00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:40,600
Speaker 2: the stuff about like you know, go into protests, learning

282
00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:43,920
Speaker 2: about politics, having kind of like non authoritarian learning structure

283
00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:46,000
Speaker 2: was great. I wish there hadn't been so many weird

284
00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:50,280
Speaker 2: dick jokes. That was kind of bad. And I think

285
00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:53,720
Speaker 2: Shuller's the experience of Schuler's kids does thankfully represent a

286
00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:56,880
Speaker 2: majority of the kids exposed to this system, which is

287
00:15:56,920 --> 00:15:59,680
Speaker 2: more what the fuck were our parents thinking than like

288
00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:03,320
Speaker 2: dev stating trauma, Right, Yeah, that is the norm is like, boy,

289
00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:06,600
Speaker 2: that was weird. They were fucking cooked, something was fucked

290
00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:10,360
Speaker 2: up in their heads. Like Because most of these kids

291
00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:15,800
Speaker 2: were not molested, right, But between Schuler's kids and Ulrich,

292
00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:18,080
Speaker 2: who is the boy who Kinler gave to a pedophile,

293
00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:20,480
Speaker 2: there were a lot of children who still did suffer

294
00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:23,760
Speaker 2: different degrees of abuse. Right, not as severe as like

295
00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:27,520
Speaker 2: a kid being fostered with a child molester, but on

296
00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:28,440
Speaker 2: that spectrum.

297
00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:28,680
Speaker 3: Right.

298
00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:32,040
Speaker 2: Sophie Dannenberg was one of these children. Her parents were

299
00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:34,600
Speaker 2: members of the German Communist Party, and they sent her

300
00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:37,920
Speaker 2: to a kinderladden in Geesen. As an adult, she interviewed

301
00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:40,440
Speaker 2: her mother and other people from the kinderladen and wrote

302
00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,680
Speaker 2: about their experiences in a novel with the excellent title

303
00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:47,520
Speaker 2: The Pale Heart of the Revolution. Fly Shower writes of

304
00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:50,520
Speaker 2: this book, the material she used includes an account of

305
00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:52,360
Speaker 2: a parent's evening where one of the mothers said that

306
00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:54,280
Speaker 2: she stripped naked in front of her sons so that

307
00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:56,960
Speaker 2: he could inspect her. In the process, the woman spread

308
00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:59,440
Speaker 2: her legs to expose her private parts for his inspection.

309
00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:02,160
Speaker 2: The game ended when the boy stuck a pencil into

310
00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:05,240
Speaker 2: his mother's vagina. The parents also spent a long time

311
00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:07,480
Speaker 2: discussing whether it was a good idea to have sex

312
00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:10,480
Speaker 2: with their own children so as to demonstrate the naturalness

313
00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:14,359
Speaker 2: of sexual intercourse. Although the people Danenberg interview did not

314
00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:18,760
Speaker 2: recall any instances of physical advances, they did describe softer

315
00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:22,000
Speaker 2: forms of sexual assault, So there's pushy demands on children

316
00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:24,600
Speaker 2: to show their naked bodies. In the novel, which is

317
00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:27,640
Speaker 2: based on Dannenberg's research, the eight year old character Simone

318
00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:29,560
Speaker 2: is told to strip in front of several adults and

319
00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:31,960
Speaker 2: other children. Why do you want to hide yourself, the

320
00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:34,480
Speaker 2: mother says, to the amusement of people standing around. When

321
00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,440
Speaker 2: the child instinctively holds a pillow in front of her genitalia,

322
00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:40,400
Speaker 2: it's a beautiful thing you have there, Show it to us.

323
00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:48,320
Speaker 2: And yeah. Abuse is the closest app term to describe

324
00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:53,000
Speaker 2: this totally. It doesn't quite describe how weird it is, right,

325
00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:57,159
Speaker 2: but it's accurate enough. One author who studied this period,

326
00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:01,400
Speaker 2: cited in der Spiegel's states that objectively speaking, this behavior

327
00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:05,800
Speaker 2: was child abuse, but writes kind of confusingly, subjectively it wasn't.

328
00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:08,800
Speaker 2: And that's a weird statement. One I don't really fully

329
00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:10,480
Speaker 2: one I don't really agree with, but I want to

330
00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:13,960
Speaker 2: continue fly Showers quote describing it, right, Okay, as outlandish

331
00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:16,560
Speaker 2: as it seems in retrospect, the parents apparently had the

332
00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:20,000
Speaker 2: welfare of the children in mind, not their own. For

333
00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:22,639
Speaker 2: the adherence to the new movement, the child did not

334
00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:24,960
Speaker 2: serve as a sex object to provide the adults with

335
00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:29,359
Speaker 2: a means of satisfying their sexual urges. This differentiates politically

336
00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:34,120
Speaker 2: motivated abuse from pedophilia, and that's an interesting concept, politically

337
00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:36,080
Speaker 2: motivated child abuse, right.

338
00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:40,679
Speaker 3: It's also not as much behind closed doors, right, and

339
00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:44,040
Speaker 3: so we actually probably weirdly know more about it than

340
00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:47,640
Speaker 3: like the Catholic Church sex abuse or yes.

341
00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:47,679
Speaker 2: The.

342
00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:54,040
Speaker 3: Mother Winter. Yeah, yeah, it makes me angry because that's

343
00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:56,720
Speaker 3: a good name for a weird old you know, mother.

344
00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:01,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very a lot of this. It's interesting to

345
00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:04,959
Speaker 2: me kind of making that distinction that, like, well, because

346
00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:06,960
Speaker 2: what you get with a lot of is these parents

347
00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:10,399
Speaker 2: who are abusing their kids don't like what they're doing,

348
00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:14,360
Speaker 2: are personally uncomfortable with it, and feel bad that they

349
00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:16,240
Speaker 2: don't feel better about doing it.

350
00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:19,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, because and they're like, oh, it's because I'm bourgeois.

351
00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:24,919
Speaker 3: But the next generation be true. This yeah, fuck, cooked

352
00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:26,359
Speaker 3: is the right word, Cooked is.

353
00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:29,120
Speaker 2: The right wall. This is where this is a problem.

354
00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:32,520
Speaker 2: You get all over the fucking map when it comes

355
00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:35,399
Speaker 2: to radical polic The Nazis were obviously trying to create

356
00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:38,480
Speaker 2: a new kind of man, right, They write about that constantly.

357
00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:42,240
Speaker 2: There was also this concept of the new Soviet man, right, Yeah,

358
00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:45,760
Speaker 2: And there's often left and right in radical politics, this

359
00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:49,159
Speaker 2: idea that like, in order to make the world that

360
00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:51,679
Speaker 2: is possible, the better world that's possible, we have to

361
00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:55,000
Speaker 2: remake people. And I kind of think you're always doomed

362
00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:58,320
Speaker 2: and wrong if that's your goal, because people don't need

363
00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:02,080
Speaker 2: to be remade. You have to meet people where they

364
00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:05,160
Speaker 2: are and make their lives and thus the world better.

365
00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:08,200
Speaker 2: And if you if your goal is to like change

366
00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:11,280
Speaker 2: what people, if you think that's what you're doing, there's

367
00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:14,520
Speaker 2: so much evil that will be justified as part of

368
00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:16,840
Speaker 2: that process, no matter how good your goals are, right,

369
00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:20,920
Speaker 2: because it's a bad thing to what to do?

370
00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:25,560
Speaker 3: I know, And it's like, it's still important to improve pedagogy,

371
00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:30,679
Speaker 3: it's still important to raise kids less authoritarianly and so

372
00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:36,240
Speaker 3: that they're more inoculated against tars. But like, but yeah,

373
00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:39,800
Speaker 3: not to it's like it's the difficult puts the wheat

374
00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:42,720
Speaker 3: into the cold to be like it'll become cold tolerant

375
00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:43,800
Speaker 3: all seeds.

376
00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:48,639
Speaker 2: It's it's the difference between saying, wow, for generations, parents

377
00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:52,160
Speaker 2: wouldn't even hug their kids and we wound up as Nazis.

378
00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:55,879
Speaker 2: We should probably like it. We were abusing our kids

379
00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:58,560
Speaker 2: for generations, and we should find ways to raise them

380
00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:02,360
Speaker 2: that are less abusive. Instead, it's they may we need

381
00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:07,960
Speaker 2: to remake our children so that they can almost so

382
00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:10,760
Speaker 2: that they can like remedy the sins of the past.

383
00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:13,520
Speaker 2: It's which are two different things. Saying that, like, we

384
00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:15,600
Speaker 2: should not abuse kids the way that we were is

385
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:20,440
Speaker 2: different from saying we need to make different people, right,

386
00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,840
Speaker 2: we need to be producing different kinds of people like you.

387
00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:26,600
Speaker 3: No, that's actually really interesting because it's like we're always

388
00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:29,200
Speaker 3: oh gen Z is gonna save us, and now it's

389
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:32,960
Speaker 3: already like, oh jen A is that finally? Yeah, the

390
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:37,600
Speaker 3: alphas have got it. Yeah, we woke you know generation.

391
00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:40,760
Speaker 3: And it's a little bit like what's getting ourselves off

392
00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:43,960
Speaker 3: the hook? Yeah, Like, yeah, I objectively have fewer ears

393
00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:46,119
Speaker 3: left ahead of me probably, but then you know, so

394
00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:48,320
Speaker 3: maybe it's more on me than it is on the

395
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:49,040
Speaker 3: fucking youth.

396
00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:53,160
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and maybe it's on people to figure out

397
00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:55,199
Speaker 2: how to make the world better and that that's a

398
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:57,840
Speaker 2: better place to start than making people better. Yes, right,

399
00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:01,440
Speaker 2: because if your goal is to make people better, yeah,

400
00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,639
Speaker 2: you're usually going to do something terrible. You're usually going

401
00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:06,640
Speaker 2: to do something terrible if your goal is to make

402
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,520
Speaker 2: people better rather than help people. Right, that's the distinction.

403
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,080
Speaker 2: I want to help people, I want to make people better.

404
00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:15,080
Speaker 2: One of those is fine. The other leads to this shit,

405
00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:19,400
Speaker 2: you know. So anyway, when I think of politically motivated

406
00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:21,720
Speaker 2: child abuse, I do think back to that book To

407
00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:26,200
Speaker 2: Train Up a Child. No, it's just that like that. Yeah,

408
00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:28,920
Speaker 2: when I think of politically motivated child abuse, I think

409
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:34,040
Speaker 2: of the Washington State Highway Patrol. No, not quite yet,

410
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:37,520
Speaker 2: but it is. I've always considered that book to Train

411
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:39,439
Speaker 2: Up a Child, which is like, if you look to

412
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:42,000
Speaker 2: the duggers, you know, the IBLP thes like hard right

413
00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:45,000
Speaker 2: wing Christian organizations, it's their textbook for how to beat

414
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:47,720
Speaker 2: your children to make them better. Okay, I do kind

415
00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:49,960
Speaker 2: of wonder I always just saw that as simple child abuse.

416
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,360
Speaker 2: Is it more accurate to describe that as politically motivated

417
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:53,960
Speaker 2: child abuse. I don't know, it's a bigger topic.

418
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,920
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, because maybe they don't even know because kid

419
00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,520
Speaker 3: because you're angry, or even hitting your kid because oh crap,

420
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:01,119
Speaker 3: my kid is to run out into the street and

421
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:02,640
Speaker 3: I can't think of anything else to do.

422
00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:05,199
Speaker 2: This is all my only tool I have in my head. Yeah.

423
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:09,880
Speaker 3: Right, So those are both motivated by something different. But yeah,

424
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,560
Speaker 3: no versus like I am neglectful of my duty as

425
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:16,320
Speaker 3: a father unless I solemnly and sadly hit my child

426
00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:18,200
Speaker 3: with a rod. And oh that's interesting.

427
00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:20,359
Speaker 2: And I know kids who were like Quiver Fool, who

428
00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:22,400
Speaker 2: were raised in the religious right, who is like, yeah,

429
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:24,480
Speaker 2: that's part of what broke us out is my parents

430
00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:28,119
Speaker 2: didn't like doing that, didn't like the discipline. And so

431
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:30,639
Speaker 2: I do think it's actually useful to look at a

432
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:32,240
Speaker 2: lot of the child abuse that does occur on the

433
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:34,680
Speaker 2: right through that this is politically motivated child abuse.

434
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:35,399
Speaker 3: Lens right.

435
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 2: I actually think that might be really important. It didn't

436
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:40,240
Speaker 2: really occur to me until I started reading about these

437
00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:43,879
Speaker 2: weird German leftists and their ideas of like sex liberation.

438
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:47,320
Speaker 2: But yeah, anyway, one of the most famous abusers within

439
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,639
Speaker 2: this system this like kinder lodden system, this sort of

440
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,240
Speaker 2: like shit that's coming out of the German left inist period.

441
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:57,040
Speaker 2: Was Daniel Kohne Benditt, a Green Party politician who was

442
00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,560
Speaker 2: a student leader during in May of nineteen sixty eight

443
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:03,200
Speaker 2: protest in France and was co president of the European Greens,

444
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:06,479
Speaker 2: European Free Alliance and the EU Parliament. He was a

445
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:10,359
Speaker 2: critic of Stalinism and an advocate of libertarian socialism. And

446
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 2: part of why I'm bringing him up is we've talked

447
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 2: about the communists who we are cooked, and it is

448
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:15,560
Speaker 2: not just the communists.

449
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:19,159
Speaker 3: I was so excited for. I wasn't surprised.

450
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,560
Speaker 2: Plenty of plenty of anarchists have this kind of like

451
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 2: fucking ideological cookedness to them. In nineteen seventy five, Daniel

452
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:32,480
Speaker 2: wrote an autobiographical book that described his experience as a

453
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:36,479
Speaker 2: kinderloden teacher. On several occasions, he claimed children opened his

454
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,800
Speaker 2: fly and stroked his penis. Quote. I was usually quite

455
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:43,879
Speaker 2: taken aback. My reactions varied depending on the circumstances. Now,

456
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:46,639
Speaker 2: I was not sure whether to classify him as is

457
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 2: this a politically motivated abuser or just a pedophile? Until

458
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 2: I read this transcript of a recording that serviced in

459
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:56,359
Speaker 2: twenty thirteen, and this is Daniel talking at nine in

460
00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:58,560
Speaker 2: the morning. I joined my eight little toddlers between the

461
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,200
Speaker 2: ages of sixteen months and two years. I wash their butts,

462
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:03,600
Speaker 2: I tickle them, they tickle me, and we cuddle. You know,

463
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,879
Speaker 2: a child's sexuality is a fantastic thing. You have to

464
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,159
Speaker 2: be honest and sincere. With the very young kids, it

465
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 2: isn't the same as it is with the four to

466
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 2: six year old kids. When a little five year old

467
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 2: girl starts undressing, it's great because it's a game. It's

468
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 2: an incredibly erotic game. Oh my god, that's a pedophile.

469
00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:23,159
Speaker 2: That's a pedophile. That's just the sun. Yeah, that's just

470
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:24,399
Speaker 2: a straight up pedophile.

471
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 3: Right yeah.

472
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 2: When this blew up, Daniel claimed that what he had

473
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 2: been writing was just fiction meant to provoke people. Oh okay, sure, okay,

474
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,439
Speaker 2: this is all tight into like why the part of

475
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:40,200
Speaker 2: why it's not I'm not gonna say it's a major part,

476
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 2: but it's not an insignificant part of like the rise

477
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 2: of groups like AfD in Germany right now, because a

478
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 2: lot of this shit came out very recently and has

479
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,160
Speaker 2: like blown up support for some of these left wing

480
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 2: parties like this has done damage recently and provided ammunition

481
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 2: to the right in Germany recently. Fair because people are

482
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 2: furious when they learned out that this was right.

483
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's fair.

484
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 2: Pedophiles who abuse children are predators, and predators inherently seek

485
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:11,160
Speaker 2: to escalate their behavior. As the seventies turned into the eighties,

486
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 2: some of these pedophiles, who had been camouflaging themselves as

487
00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 2: childcare reform activists, decided to make a grand play for acceptance.

488
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 2: Following in the wake of the gay rights movements, Organizations

489
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:25,240
Speaker 2: like the Indian Commune in Nuremberg sought to characterize pedophilia

490
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:29,679
Speaker 2: as a sexual orientation that deserved to be treated with respect. Now,

491
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 2: in true German fashion, the Indian Commune with both an

492
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:37,400
Speaker 2: act of cultural appropriation and mind numbing abuse Germans. We've

493
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,680
Speaker 2: talked with this in our very first episodes on Karl May.

494
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:43,439
Speaker 2: There's this weird obsession with Native Americans that is based

495
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:46,640
Speaker 2: entirely in almost entirely in the fiction of a guy

496
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 2: who never went to America and just lied about Native Americans. Yeah,

497
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 2: and it influenced the Nazis. Loved like Hitler was a

498
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:57,680
Speaker 2: huge like like was this kind of weird Native American

499
00:26:57,760 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 2: stand where he was not actually standing any real history

500
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:01,959
Speaker 2: like what this German altim, but he thought he was.

501
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 2: And there's still a lot of weirdness around Native Americans

502
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 2: in German society today. This is one example of it, right.

503
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 2: The Indian Commune is a group of adults and children

504
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,399
Speaker 2: who painted each other up like Native Americans are, like

505
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,479
Speaker 2: their conception of Native Americans, and showed up at that

506
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 2: year's Green Party convention to argue in favor of free

507
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 2: sex for adults and children. Almost unbelievably, the Greens gave

508
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 2: them a hearing more than that. In nineteen eighty five,

509
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 2: the Green State Organization in Westphalia argued that nonviolent sexual

510
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 2: contact between adults and children should be decriminalized. Another state

511
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,639
Speaker 2: Green Party published a position paper making the same argument,

512
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 2: until public protests forced them to remove it. Again, we're

513
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 2: in the eighties by now, so there's pushback to this.

514
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:51,119
Speaker 2: This movement had a name, the pedo sexual movement, and

515
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:53,920
Speaker 2: it succeeded for a while because a lot of non

516
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 2: pedophiles bought their bullshit, But the driving force behind it

517
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:01,359
Speaker 2: was always highly placed, influential peederists in the Green Party.

518
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,439
Speaker 2: One of these pedophiles was Hermann Mehr, a leader in

519
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 2: the party who lived on a commune that openly advertised

520
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 2: engaging in pedophilia. One victim later told the magazine Develt

521
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 2: that mer abused him, along with quote about ten men,

522
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 2: many of whom were visitors to the commune, who seemed

523
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 2: to have shown up for that purpose. Right, this is

524
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 2: a place you can like, Yeah, it's so easy, so vile.

525
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:30,120
Speaker 2: Another pedophile leader of the pedo sexual movement was Peter Schult,

526
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,679
Speaker 2: an anarchist journalist who described himself as a pederist and

527
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,199
Speaker 2: was convicted of bringing a girl into his house to

528
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 2: abuse in nineteen seventy six. Schult denied the allegations and

529
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 2: claimed that he was being punished for his sexuality and

530
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 2: political organizing. He attracted a great deal of support, and

531
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy seven he wrote an angry pamphlet attacking

532
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 2: anarchists who hadn't supported him. He described them as preaching

533
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 2: anarchy while being offended at the sight of lived anarchy.

534
00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 3: In his words, I am glad that there were enough

535
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 3: anarchists that at him that he had to write that

536
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 3: he had to write that's what I'm That's the only

537
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 3: thing I'm procured any of this story is that people

538
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 3: were like, what the book it is.

539
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 2: It's one of those things where like Schult denied the

540
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 2: allegations that he had molested a girl in part because

541
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 2: he was molesting boys and maybe those specific allegations were

542
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 2: wrong about molesting boys. Yeah, yeah, Like Kindler, Shultz defended

543
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 2: his molestation of boys by claiming he was just helping runaways.

544
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 2: And here is what gay historian Hubert Kennedy wrote in

545
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 2: schultz obituary. Peter found and took homb the homeless, or

546
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 2: they found him in state institutions. His address was passed

547
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 2: from one boy to another as a place where runaways

548
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 2: could find temporary shelter. His address was also well known

549
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 2: to the authorities, whose authority the anarchist Peter refused to recognize,

550
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 2: and he was sent to prison numerous times on charges

551
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 2: of drug possession and seducing minors. A number of left

552
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 2: wing publications were unfortunately woefully open to the arguments of

553
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 2: Peter's actual advocates. Tag Zeitongue, a an all weekly publication,

554
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,719
Speaker 2: published interviews with pedophiles where they discussed how wonderful their

555
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 2: sex with little boys was when g d Hinsel, co

556
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 2: founder of the paper, argued that they should not be

557
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 2: promoting pedophilia. She was described as being a prude and

558
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 2: told quote, there's no such thing as censorship in the

559
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 2: tag Zeitungue, Like basically, we don't censor people from talking

560
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 2: about molestic children.

561
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 3: This is a problem in American left too. I'm not

562
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 3: sure if you're gonna get into this during the same

563
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 3: time period.

564
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 2: You know, we're not enough. Again, when we talked about Thornleigh,

565
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 2: we did, and we've talked on other shows about an

566
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 2: influential anarchist now, oh god, what's his fucking name, the.

567
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 3: Taz guy, Peter lamborn Wilson Peter.

568
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 2: Lamborn Wilson hackeen Bay, who was also may not have

569
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 2: actually I don't know if you ever like actually molested anyone,

570
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 2: but argued in favor of it.

571
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm undern inversion of him arguing in favor because

572
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 3: it was it was, Yeah, it was in vogue. And

573
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 3: it's interesting because it's during this like dead period of organizing.

574
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 3: I mean, there is organizing happening, but like by and large,

575
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 3: the anti thoritarian left is like not doing a lot

576
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 3: during the seventies and eighties, because well, it just was

577
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 3: going through a slum, you know, Yeah, and so the

578
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 3: only people around, I mean, they're not the only people around.

579
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 3: There are many people who were against.

580
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 2: This all along, yes, and we're about to talk about those.

581
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 2: Great So there are leftists in Germany who speak out

582
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 2: against this real, big problem. One of them is Gunter Amant,

583
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 2: a social scientist who argued accurately there is no equitable

584
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 2: sexuality between children and adults. Another person on around.

585
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 3: Violent sexuality between children.

586
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 2: All it's inherently violent for an adult to rape a kid.

587
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 3: Right.

588
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 2: Alice Schwarzer, who founded a women's magazine, also lambassid acceptance

589
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 2: of pedophilia on the left. From Der Schpiegel quote, Amant

590
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 2: recalls how he was disparaged as a reactionary in flyers

591
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 2: and articles. There was an outright campaign against alas in

592
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 2: me at the time. He says, it wasn't until the

593
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 2: mid nineteen nineties that this horrific episode came to an end.

594
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 2: In nineteen ninety four, the pedos appearing in Tagzitung for

595
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 2: the last time, and even that publication recognized that intercourse

596
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 2: with little boys was no different than with little girls who,

597
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 2: thanks to the women's movement, have long been deemed worthy

598
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 2: of protection. And that's a worthwhile note on this is

599
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 2: that when we talk about these people supporting sexual contact

600
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 2: with kids from adults, a lot of them in the

601
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 2: kinder Looten movement, it's this broader like, well, we just

602
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 2: need to be more open to kids' sexuality, for both

603
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 2: boys and girls when it comes to like pairing abused

604
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 2: children with pedophiles, you know, both officially through the state

605
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 2: has happened with Kintler and kind of unofficially like that

606
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 2: anarchist we talked about, did it's all little boys, because

607
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 2: there's a broader understanding that you like, the feminist movement

608
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 2: has already pushed through this understanding that that's not acceptable

609
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 2: to do with little girls, and it took later for boys, right,

610
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 2: And some of this is wrapped up in a lot

611
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 2: of really complicated shit about the suppression of male homosexuals

612
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 2: in Germany and throughout the West, and how common relationships

613
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 2: between much older and much younger men. You know, were like,

614
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 2: this is a messy, messy topic, right, Yeah, but it

615
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 2: is kind of worth noting that, like part of what

616
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,719
Speaker 2: brings this to an end is when folks start arguing that,

617
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 2: like we already agree it is wronged to molest little girls,

618
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 2: why are we treating boys differently?

619
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 1: Right?

620
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 2: It does come out of this like feminist movement, a

621
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 2: lot of the backlash to this that finally succeeds in

622
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 2: bringing it into it.

623
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 3: Could you imagine that? That's like you're a feminist during

624
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:37,040
Speaker 3: this time, and that's what you have to waste.

625
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 4: Yeah?

626
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 3: Do I really have to argue this? Yeah?

627
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's oh boy. Speaking of arguing, Margaret, you know

628
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 2: what I love to argue in favor.

629
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 3: Of commercial enterprise.

630
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right. In this case, it's a welcome

631
00:33:55,440 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 2: relief from talking about this German pilot. And we're back.

632
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:10,760
Speaker 2: And speaking of back, let's get back to the story

633
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,760
Speaker 2: of doctor Helmut Kinler and his plan to pair foster

634
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:17,320
Speaker 2: kids with pedophiles. This continued all through the nineteen eighties,

635
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 2: even after the pedo sexual movement faded in popularity thanks

636
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 2: to belated resistance from within the left. The best documented

637
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 2: victim of Kintler's specific program was a boy named Marco.

638
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:31,280
Speaker 2: In nineteen eighty eight. Marco was crossing the street alone

639
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 2: when he was hit by a car. This was a

640
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 2: minor incident. He was not severely injured, thankfully, but his

641
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 2: injury the fact that he was not attended right drew

642
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:42,439
Speaker 2: the attention of a local youth wealth fare office, which

643
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 2: was also run by the Berlin government. From the New

644
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 2: Yorker quote, Caseworkers at the office observed that Marco's mother

645
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:52,799
Speaker 2: seemed unable to give him the necessary emotional attention. She

646
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 2: worked at a sausage stand and was struggling to manage

647
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:59,319
Speaker 2: parenthood on her own. Marco's father, a Palestinian refugee, had

648
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 2: divorced her. She sent Marco and his older brother to

649
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:05,320
Speaker 2: daycare in dirty clothes and left them there for eleven hours.

650
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 2: Caseworkers recommended that Marco be placed in a foster home

651
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 2: with a family like atmosphere. One described him as an

652
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:15,279
Speaker 2: attractive boy who was wild but very easy to influence.

653
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 2: Hinkel a forty seven year old single man who supplemented

654
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 2: his income as a foster father by repairing jukeboxes and

655
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 2: other electronics. Marco was Hinkle's eighth foster son in sixteen years.

656
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 2: When Hinkel began fostering children in nineteen seventy three, a

657
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:32,319
Speaker 2: teacher noted that he was always looking for contact with

658
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 2: boys Hinkel specifically. Now again this is part of this

659
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 2: is a result of the program that Kintler has instituted.

660
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 2: Kinler is in content with Hinkel. Marco has two parents,

661
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 2: both of them are in his life. They're separated, but

662
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 2: his dad, the Palestinian refugee, is in his life, and

663
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,839
Speaker 2: so is his mom. They are both just poor and

664
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 2: so as a result, they're scrambling to make enough money

665
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:58,760
Speaker 2: to get by, which means they are there are times

666
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 2: when this kid is not watched as much as would

667
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:05,719
Speaker 2: be ideal. Right, the state takes him away from them

668
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:08,320
Speaker 2: for that, probably in part because there's a lot of

669
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:11,239
Speaker 2: writing about how like once they see his dad, they're like, well,

670
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 2: we have to keep him away from this dangerous Muslim, right,

671
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:20,440
Speaker 2: like this authoritarian influence. Right, it's really really fucked up.

672
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:24,840
Speaker 2: So people in the senate and educational offices within the

673
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:29,239
Speaker 2: Berlin City government were well aware that Hinkel was a

674
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:35,839
Speaker 2: pedophile adopting boys, eight boys by the time he fosters Marco. Right,

675
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 2: they don't stop any of this. He's again, this is

676
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 2: when I talk about guys like Kittler being like, well,

677
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 2: some kids are in such desperate straits that being with

678
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:46,799
Speaker 2: a pedophile is best for them. This is what they mean. Well,

679
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,360
Speaker 2: this kid's mom and dad are separated, and they're not

680
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 2: people like us. They're not warm, so it must be

681
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 2: better for him to be raped repeatedly, right, That is

682
00:36:56,040 --> 00:37:00,719
Speaker 2: the calculation they're making. In nineteen eighty nine, a caseworker

683
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:03,880
Speaker 2: wrote that Hinkel was in a quote homosexual relationship with

684
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:08,160
Speaker 2: one of his foster sons, possibly Marco, a prosecutor. And again,

685
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 2: this is not a relationship. I'm not calling it. That

686
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 2: is what the caseworker calls it. In nineteen eighty nine,

687
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:17,880
Speaker 2: a prosecutor did call for an investigation, but Helmut Kintler,

688
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 2: who described himself as Hinkel's permanent advisor and also called

689
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:27,440
Speaker 2: Hinkel regularly to talk politics, intervened. Kintler described himself to

690
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 2: this prosecutor as the quote nation's chief authority on questions

691
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 2: of sexual education, and at this point he was famous.

692
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:37,239
Speaker 2: He is regularly interviewed in the news. He is consulted

693
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:40,920
Speaker 2: by political leaders. He is a prominent and respected academic.

694
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 2: He sends a letter on university letterhead to this prosecutor,

695
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 2: issuing an expert opinion on Henkel, saying I've got to

696
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 2: know this guy well through a research project we're both

697
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:54,440
Speaker 2: engaged in. Hinkel is a wonderful parent, and he attacks

698
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 2: the wild interpretations of this psychologist who had accused him

699
00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:02,920
Speaker 2: of pederasty. The threats of an investmentation went away. Several

700
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:05,839
Speaker 2: times a year, Hinkle would drive to see Kinler at

701
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:08,840
Speaker 2: the school where he taught. Kentler would study the children

702
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:11,239
Speaker 2: and take notes. He was happy enough with Hinkele that

703
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:13,360
Speaker 2: he kept a ready stream of boys heading into the

704
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,600
Speaker 2: pedophiles home. After Marco had been there eighteen months, he

705
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 2: was joined by a kid named Spinn, who had been

706
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,480
Speaker 2: found at age seven begging for money in a subway station.

707
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,839
Speaker 2: The Youth Welfare office noted that since he'd likely never

708
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 2: experienced a positive parent child relationship, he was a good

709
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:31,719
Speaker 2: candidate for Kinler's program.

710
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:32,360
Speaker 3: Because he's not getting that one now.

711
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 2: So the solutions to all both of these kids problems.

712
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 2: To the extent that Mark had a problem, the solution was, well, yeah,

713
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 2: there should have been some sort of social welfare net

714
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 2: to ensure that his mom didn't have to work these

715
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:45,759
Speaker 2: long shifts at the sausage factory so that she had

716
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:47,439
Speaker 2: more time for her kids. There should be like state

717
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 2: funded daycare and stuff. You know, Yeah, there should be

718
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 2: programs the same thing with the Oh there's a homeless

719
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:54,839
Speaker 2: kid begging for money, you know what we should do?

720
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 2: Get him off the street and not into a pedophiles house. Right, Like,

721
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 2: these are not complex problems. We're not talking about like

722
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 2: intractable issues of geopolitics. Yeah, anyway, I'm going to quote

723
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 2: again from The New Yorker. The two boys took on

724
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 2: different roles in their new family. Spinn was the good son,

725
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:14,960
Speaker 2: docilen loving. Marco was more defiant. But at night, when

726
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:17,760
Speaker 2: Hinkle came into his room asking to cuddle or waiting

727
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:19,840
Speaker 2: for him while he brushed his teeth before bed, he

728
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 2: had to comply. I just accepted it out of loyalty

729
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:25,799
Speaker 2: because I didn't know anything else. Marco told me. I

730
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 2: didn't think what was happening was good, but I thought

731
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 2: it was normal. I thought of it a little bit

732
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 2: like food. People have different tastes in food, the way

733
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 2: some people have different tastes and sexuality. If Spinn's bedroom

734
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:39,400
Speaker 2: door was open and he wasn't there, Marco knew what

735
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:41,719
Speaker 2: was happening, but the two boys never talked about what

736
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:44,960
Speaker 2: Hankle did to them. It was an absolutely taboo subject.

737
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 2: Marco said. One day, Marco took a knife from the

738
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:51,400
Speaker 2: kitchen and slept with it under his pillow. When Hinkle

739
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:54,320
Speaker 2: approached his bed and discovered the blade, he withdrew quickly

740
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:57,319
Speaker 2: and he called Helmut Kentler, and he then handed the

741
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,400
Speaker 2: phone to Marco. Kentler asked him why he brought the

742
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:03,080
Speaker 2: knife into his bed, and Marco said, there's a devil

743
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 2: behind my wall. Kindler had a call me grandfatherly presence.

744
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:09,520
Speaker 2: He assured Marco that there was no such thing as devils,

745
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:12,799
Speaker 2: and Marco agreed to surrender the knife. Never give up

746
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,719
Speaker 2: your knife, kids, never ever up your fucking knife.

747
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:17,840
Speaker 3: Well, and it's interesting because it compares to how we

748
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 3: talked about demons in her head. Yeah, last week's episodes.

749
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:23,520
Speaker 3: You know, like there's ways that people are going to

750
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:26,360
Speaker 3: conceptualize the abuse that they're suffering.

751
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 2: It's something almost so awful you have to turn it

752
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,840
Speaker 2: into a metaphor because ye can't even like, you can't

753
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:35,319
Speaker 2: even look at it directly, even though it's happening to you.

754
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:39,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, I got really excited for where that story. I know,

755
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 3: I know, I got its heartbreaking, I am.

756
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 2: It would be great if this ended with a pedophile

757
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 2: being stabbed to death. But it does not I know.

758
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 3: And then it's like and also like most of the

759
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:50,879
Speaker 3: time it's like then you're like you want that kid

760
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:53,799
Speaker 3: to have to done that, And then you're like, life

761
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 3: isn't going to get better.

762
00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 2: This is maybe bad stuff. I will say, this is

763
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 2: a happy ending. This is a legit mark story has

764
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:05,359
Speaker 2: a legitimately wonderful ending. So that is good. I want

765
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:09,239
Speaker 2: to promise you that now bad stuff to get through. Yeah,

766
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 2: So Marco still has a family. He has a mother

767
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:16,319
Speaker 2: and father. They visit sometimes again they're separated, but like

768
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 2: they visit both separately and together, and they try to

769
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:23,279
Speaker 2: get him back. But Henkel has all the power. He

770
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 2: would cancel visits at will minutes before they were set

771
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:28,760
Speaker 2: to begin, or he would end them early, often claiming

772
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:32,680
Speaker 2: that Marco's mother was disruptive to Marco's emotional state. The

773
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 2: stress and drama Hankel created around these visits caused Marco

774
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 2: to wet his bed and fail to focus at school,

775
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 2: and Kentler used this as an excuse to end the

776
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 2: visits entirely, telling the welfare office that Marco's educational successes

777
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 2: are ruined by seeing his mom. Marco's Palestinian father was

778
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 2: not allowed to visit at all because Henkel told authorities

779
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 2: that Marco said he'd been beaten by his father. We

780
00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 2: have no I I think Marco has said that this

781
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 2: was not true, but likes he is backing up anything

782
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:06,440
Speaker 2: Hinkel says because Hinkel is his caregiver, and as he states,

783
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:09,240
Speaker 2: I didn't know I could disagree with him about stuff

784
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 2: right now. There are times that authorities saw through these lies.

785
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:17,280
Speaker 2: One of the mandated child therapists that Marco saw described

786
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:20,760
Speaker 2: Henkel as holding the boy prisoner during their sessions. Several

787
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:24,920
Speaker 2: different mandated therapists complained, but anytime stuff started to move

788
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 2: in a way where like maybe the kids would be

789
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:29,879
Speaker 2: taken away from Hankel, Kintler would swoop in. He told

790
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:32,800
Speaker 2: the Youth Welfare office they were not qualified to assess

791
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 2: a child who was as damaged as Marco. If an

792
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:43,480
Speaker 2: assessment was needed, only Kintler was established enough to do it. Yeah, right,

793
00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:47,760
Speaker 2: right exactly. He acknowledged that Hinkel could appear harsh and hurtful,

794
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 2: but this was not so. Quote. I ask you to

795
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:53,320
Speaker 2: consider that a man who deals with such seriously damaged

796
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:57,719
Speaker 2: children is not a simple person. What mister Hinkel needs

797
00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:01,440
Speaker 2: from the authorities is trust and protection. It is the

798
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 2: cop argument. What they're dealing with is so dangerous and

799
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 2: vile that they have to use extreme measures, and we can't.

800
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 2: We're not qualified to question them, right it is anytime

801
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 2: you hear that logic, it means someone is doing something terrible. Yeah,

802
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:19,360
Speaker 2: Marco's parents spent years trying to get him back. This

803
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 2: is not something he realizes as an adult. Oh my god,

804
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 2: I was not abandoned. My parents fought for me. These

805
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:28,279
Speaker 2: two poor people, one of whom is a Palestinian refugee,

806
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:31,760
Speaker 2: were basically ranged against the entire power of the city

807
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:34,920
Speaker 2: government of Berlin, which was being effectively wielded by this

808
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 2: weird pedophile philosopher against them. You know, there is a

809
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 2: court case. Henkel coaches Marco to tell the judge that

810
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:44,520
Speaker 2: he wanted to stay with his foster father, who he

811
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:47,520
Speaker 2: called Papa. Marco claims, I didn't really know what was

812
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:50,439
Speaker 2: going on. I did not understand that my parents were

813
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:52,799
Speaker 2: fighting to have a connection to me. I thought that

814
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 2: they had basically abandoned me, and I was scared of

815
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:59,319
Speaker 2: angering Henkel and also traumatized from the near knightly abuse. Right,

816
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:02,840
Speaker 2: there was one bright spot in his childhood, which is

817
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:06,360
Speaker 2: that it's a weird one. It's that this again pedophile

818
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:09,840
Speaker 2: who is fostering him gets a third foster son. This

819
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 2: foster son is a disabled little boy named Marcel. Now,

820
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:16,960
Speaker 2: the fact that Hankel, the pedophile, sought to take possession

821
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 2: of a boy who could not walk or talk is

822
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 2: horrifying in ways that I cannot describe and will not

823
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:26,400
Speaker 2: labor on. But Marco and Sfinn came to love Marcel

824
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:28,920
Speaker 2: and treat him as their own blood. They took care

825
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:32,439
Speaker 2: of this boy like because he was their brother from

826
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 2: the New Yorker. Marco and s Finn became Kramer's caretakers,

827
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:38,880
Speaker 2: feeding him strawberry flavored milk with a spoon and removing

828
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 2: mucus from his lungs with a suction hose. When they

829
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:44,560
Speaker 2: went to Hankel's house in Brandenburg, west of Berlin, Marco

830
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 2: pushed Kramer for hours in a tire swing. Kramer was

831
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:53,240
Speaker 2: the first person in years for whom Marco had felt love. Now, yeah,

832
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 2: like the fact that these both of these kids being

833
00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:01,319
Speaker 2: so profoundly abandoned and abused. When they see this disabled

834
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:05,239
Speaker 2: boy who is in desperate need of not just medical care,

835
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:10,560
Speaker 2: but attention. Yeah, provide. It is a wonderful bit of

836
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:17,000
Speaker 2: light in this right. Yeah. Marco struggles with school obviously,

837
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:20,239
Speaker 2: and part of this is because Hinkel is encouraging him

838
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:23,359
Speaker 2: to neglect his studies and misbehave right, because the worse

839
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:25,880
Speaker 2: Marco does in school, the more they have an excuse.

840
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:28,800
Speaker 2: They switch schools every year, which means that no adults

841
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 2: get to spend enough time around Marco to realize what

842
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 2: is going on. Hinkel is a very effective and methodical abuser,

843
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:38,280
Speaker 2: and that's what's going on here. His tactics work until

844
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:41,879
Speaker 2: Marco goes through puberty and starts lifting weights. One night,

845
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:44,880
Speaker 2: when Henkel came to molest him, Marco fought back, not

846
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:47,719
Speaker 2: even a lot, but that spelled the end of him

847
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:52,319
Speaker 2: being molested forever. Hinkel, of course, still responds aggressively to

848
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:54,240
Speaker 2: this in his own way. He would lock the kitchen

849
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 2: at night. He justified it by to Kintler by claiming

850
00:45:57,520 --> 00:45:59,759
Speaker 2: that Marco was greedy. You know, he would fight back,

851
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:02,399
Speaker 2: but he he did not keep molesting Marco, right because

852
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:04,239
Speaker 2: he's afraid of him. Because he was afraid of him. Now,

853
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 2: now here's where things get complicated. When Marco turns eighteen,

854
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:10,319
Speaker 2: you might expect him to have gotten the hell out

855
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:13,800
Speaker 2: of the house, but he doesn't. He lives with Henkel

856
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:16,440
Speaker 2: for three more years. He says part of this is

857
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:19,959
Speaker 2: that he didn't even consider leaving to be possible. Quote. Yeah,

858
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:22,720
Speaker 2: it's very hard to describe. But I was never raised

859
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:25,720
Speaker 2: to think critically about anything. I had an empty mind.

860
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:29,319
Speaker 2: Those are his words. He says this. But there is

861
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:31,960
Speaker 2: a very clear reason he stayed with Henkel, which is

862
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 2: that his beloved adopted brother is living there too. Marcel

863
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:39,239
Speaker 2: is there. Marco willingly stays in the house of his

864
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:42,760
Speaker 2: abuser for three years so that he can continue to

865
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 2: be a caregiver to his brother. This only ends when

866
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:50,239
Speaker 2: Marcel dies after a forty eight hour flew. Marco says

867
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:52,680
Speaker 2: he always checked on his brother multiple times throughout the

868
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:55,000
Speaker 2: night to make sure he was breathing, so he noticed

869
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:57,719
Speaker 2: very quickly that something was wrong. He tried to get

870
00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:00,319
Speaker 2: Hankle to call for an ambulance, but hankeld not when

871
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:03,120
Speaker 2: any of the boys going to doctors, and so Marcel

872
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 2: died while Marco watched. Quote I was looking into his

873
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:11,640
Speaker 2: eyes when he died. Now this does not prompt an

874
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 2: investigation into Hankel. Marcel was an abandoned disabled child and

875
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:17,439
Speaker 2: was thus of less than no value to the Youth

876
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 2: Welfare office. His file simply noted call from mister Hankel,

877
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:24,920
Speaker 2: who said Marcel died unexpectedly last night. Previously there were

878
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:28,400
Speaker 2: no signs of an infection. The following note says that Hankel,

879
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 2: now sixty, wanted to adopt another boy. So talking about

880
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:35,759
Speaker 2: how long this goes? Marcel dies in two thousand and one,

881
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:40,440
Speaker 2: Kentler's program experiment is still going into the twenty first century.

882
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, two thousand and one felt very yep. Yeah, that's

883
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:45,640
Speaker 3: too recent.

884
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:49,799
Speaker 2: Kinler is a respected figure at this moment. This only

885
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:53,480
Speaker 2: starts to change when an academic, Teresa Netwig, began researching

886
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:56,960
Speaker 2: and writing about Kintler for her thesis. She had struggled

887
00:47:56,960 --> 00:48:00,279
Speaker 2: to find good information on this pedophile foster program and

888
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:02,920
Speaker 2: noticed that most of the files were missing from the

889
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:07,359
Speaker 2: city archives because they had been deliberately removed. Kinler died

890
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:09,800
Speaker 2: in two thousand and eight, but even after that point

891
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:12,839
Speaker 2: he had loyal friends still in government and academia, and

892
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:16,560
Speaker 2: they fought back against her attempts to expose him. Eventually,

893
00:48:16,719 --> 00:48:19,960
Speaker 2: her university contract was canceled, and she blames this on

894
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:22,880
Speaker 2: the fact that she chose to research Kentler. She eventually

895
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:24,840
Speaker 2: wrote a book on the man, which revealed that he

896
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:27,359
Speaker 2: was not just some wild eyed academic who bought into

897
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:32,359
Speaker 2: bogus science. He was also a pedophile. Kintler, a single man,

898
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:37,040
Speaker 2: adopted three sons and fostered several more children. Two of

899
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:40,399
Speaker 2: his foster sons have accused him of sexual abuse. They

900
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 2: initially went to Karen Desrat, an author and researcher, who

901
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 2: quote owed a lot to Kintler and thus referred the

902
00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:49,719
Speaker 2: boys to another therapist rather than do anything when they

903
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:52,880
Speaker 2: came out to her. She claims the boys themselves wanted

904
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:55,400
Speaker 2: the abuse kept quiet because they quote didn't want to

905
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:58,160
Speaker 2: lose the positives of Kinler's care, that they had enough

906
00:48:58,200 --> 00:48:59,800
Speaker 2: to eat and that they were taken care of in

907
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:02,920
Speaker 2: things like that. I'm going to read another quote from

908
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:05,920
Speaker 2: that New Yorker article about kind of the collapse of

909
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:10,000
Speaker 2: Kentler's reputation. Gunter Schmidt, a former president of the International

910
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:13,160
Speaker 2: Academy of Sex Research, which attracts the field's leading researchers,

911
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:15,400
Speaker 2: was friends with Kinler for more than twenty years. I

912
00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:18,280
Speaker 2: honestly had respect for it, he told Nitwig of the experiment,

913
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:20,400
Speaker 2: because I thought, these are really young people who are

914
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:22,880
Speaker 2: in the worst situation. They probably have a long history

915
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:25,560
Speaker 2: at home, they had miserable childhoods, and someone is looking

916
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 2: after them. And if Kinler is there, it'll be fine,

917
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:31,200
Speaker 2: he added, And the Berlin Senate is also there. When

918
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:33,800
Speaker 2: Kentler was fifty seven, he wrote Schmid a letter explaining

919
00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:37,320
Speaker 2: why he was aging happily rather than becoming lonely and resigned.

920
00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:39,520
Speaker 2: He and his twenty six year old son were quote

921
00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:42,440
Speaker 2: part of a very fulfilling love story that had lasted

922
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:45,839
Speaker 2: thirteen years and still felt fresh. To understand his state

923
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:48,520
Speaker 2: of mind, Kentler wrote his friends should know his secret.

924
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:53,080
Speaker 2: Kinler seems to have reappraised his belief that pedophiles were

925
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:56,680
Speaker 2: good caregivers to abandoned children in nineteen ninety one, after

926
00:49:56,719 --> 00:49:59,080
Speaker 2: that adopted son that he had bragged about having a

927
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:03,640
Speaker 2: good relationship with committed suicide. Now it's unclear to me

928
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:06,200
Speaker 2: if Kinler, and this is still a bit of a

929
00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:10,080
Speaker 2: mystery me is he was he How much of this

930
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:14,359
Speaker 2: was like he's in this ideological space, and how much

931
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:16,399
Speaker 2: of this is he was always a pedophile. I really

932
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 2: don't know with Kinler because he claims he claims to

933
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:23,080
Speaker 2: have recognized that there was like he had made errors

934
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:26,799
Speaker 2: in his beliefs around this stuff after his adopted son

935
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:31,319
Speaker 2: commit and abuse victim commits suicide. He would later claim

936
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 2: that during the nineties, he reads this essay by a

937
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:38,600
Speaker 2: Hungarian psychoanalyst, Sandor Farinsky, that changed his mind on pedophilia.

938
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:42,319
Speaker 2: Farinsky wrote that sexual relationships between adults and children were

939
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:46,680
Speaker 2: always exploitative and dangerous for children. After his son's suicide,

940
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:50,160
Speaker 2: Kinler cited this paper often, but never admitted to molesting

941
00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:53,480
Speaker 2: his own adopted children. He simply said that his child

942
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:56,440
Speaker 2: had been molested by his birth mother and committed suicide

943
00:50:56,520 --> 00:50:57,000
Speaker 2: due to that.

944
00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:01,640
Speaker 3: And you know, he's just a more responsibility.

945
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:05,719
Speaker 2: That's how I interpret this. Yeah, And there's definitely a

946
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 2: period after which he claims to have recognized that, you know,

947
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:12,279
Speaker 2: this was wrong, that he's still in contact with Hankel

948
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:16,880
Speaker 2: right and still actively helping him to continue to abuse kids.

949
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:19,799
Speaker 2: So yeah, I don't buy Kintler's story here.

950
00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:20,560
Speaker 4: Now.

951
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:22,960
Speaker 3: This is not enough of a turn and around to

952
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:25,440
Speaker 3: know any kind of redemption arc.

953
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:28,640
Speaker 2: You know, No, the happiest ending I can give you

954
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:31,359
Speaker 2: is to continue the story of Marco. When he left

955
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:33,920
Speaker 2: Henkel's home at age twenty one, he had nothing and

956
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:37,400
Speaker 2: nowhere to live. He spent nights homeless, sleeping on benches

957
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:41,120
Speaker 2: before a charity for homeless youth found him a subsidized apartment.

958
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:44,280
Speaker 2: Henkel had done so little to educate him that Marco

959
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:47,360
Speaker 2: didn't know that people had to pay for electricity. He

960
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:50,120
Speaker 2: stumbled through life for a while, picking up the basics

961
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:52,200
Speaker 2: of survival, but stuck in what he describes as a

962
00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:55,560
Speaker 2: sort of hibernation. After five years, he began to feel

963
00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:57,759
Speaker 2: as if he were a monster due to his lack

964
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:01,640
Speaker 2: of empathy and destructive outbursts. This culminated in a fight

965
00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:04,280
Speaker 2: on a Berlin train when he noticed three men staring

966
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:06,839
Speaker 2: at him and just beat the shit out of them,

967
00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 2: sending one man to the er. Marco was horrified by

968
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:13,080
Speaker 2: himself and the way he interprets this is like I

969
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:16,120
Speaker 2: am turning into Hankel who abused me, and he made

970
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:18,960
Speaker 2: a commitment to change. Not long after this, he was

971
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:22,400
Speaker 2: walking down the street when a woman, a photographer, complimented

972
00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:25,040
Speaker 2: his appearance and asked, do you want to do any

973
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:28,440
Speaker 2: modeling for me? Right? So he sat for some photos

974
00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:30,560
Speaker 2: with her, and this didn't lead to any modeling work.

975
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:32,920
Speaker 2: But he becomes friends with this woman and he starts

976
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:35,440
Speaker 2: to meet other people through her, and he gets a

977
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:36,160
Speaker 2: fringe group.

978
00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:36,560
Speaker 3: Right.

979
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:40,520
Speaker 2: He describes the experience of learning how to have friends

980
00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:43,360
Speaker 2: as similar to learning a foreign language through immersion in

981
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:44,160
Speaker 2: another culture.

982
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:44,719
Speaker 3: Right.

983
00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:48,640
Speaker 2: Eventually Marco met a woman, they got married, had children,

984
00:52:48,719 --> 00:52:51,480
Speaker 2: and today he is a devoted father and family man.

985
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:54,040
Speaker 2: His very life is proof that Kentler and the other

986
00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:56,880
Speaker 2: experts in the child' psychology of the era were wrong.

987
00:52:57,239 --> 00:52:59,759
Speaker 2: Abused children are not condemned to a life where the

988
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:02,480
Speaker 2: oly people who might care for them are pedophiles. Right,

989
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:06,480
Speaker 2: people can recover from the most traumatic things imaginable if

990
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:09,319
Speaker 2: they are provided with the support and love necessary to

991
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:12,840
Speaker 2: enable healing. And thankfully Marco was. He makes friends, he

992
00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:17,200
Speaker 2: develops relationships that are equal relationships with other adults, and

993
00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:23,359
Speaker 2: he heals himself right, becomes a father, and like, it's

994
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:25,879
Speaker 2: the best possible ending that this guy has. And there's

995
00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:29,040
Speaker 2: even this coda he gets when all of this stuff

996
00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:32,920
Speaker 2: starts to come out, Like around twenty eighteen, Marco is

997
00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:36,880
Speaker 2: contacted by a guy who works for alternative for Deutschland,

998
00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:39,880
Speaker 2: Germany's far right party, as an advisor for education and

999
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:43,759
Speaker 2: cultural policy. And this guy Schwer reads about Marco in

1000
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:47,759
Speaker 2: a Derschpiegel article in twenty eighteen about Kentler's experiment, and

1001
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:50,879
Speaker 2: he's like, you know, he starts basically offering help from

1002
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:53,600
Speaker 2: the AfD. He claimed it's not for political purposes, but

1003
00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:56,200
Speaker 2: like to really help him get justice from the parliament,

1004
00:53:56,360 --> 00:53:58,280
Speaker 2: right to like get some money out of them.

1005
00:53:58,200 --> 00:53:59,560
Speaker 3: So that he could be a poster boy for the

1006
00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:00,000
Speaker 3: far right.

1007
00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:02,920
Speaker 2: And that is what happened for a while. Right, the

1008
00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:06,440
Speaker 2: AfD holds stop Kintler's sex ed rallies to protest the

1009
00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:09,680
Speaker 2: way that sexuality is taught in German schools. They argue

1010
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:13,040
Speaker 2: that Kintler's criminal pedophile spirit lives on unbroken in today's

1011
00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:18,000
Speaker 2: sexual education. While this is going on, Marco is, you know,

1012
00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:20,840
Speaker 2: taking this guy's help for a while. And eventually the

1013
00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:25,080
Speaker 2: German Senate authorizes fifty thousand euro payouts to Marco and

1014
00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:27,520
Speaker 2: Spin and I think to a couple of other abuse

1015
00:54:27,640 --> 00:54:31,200
Speaker 2: victims of Kinler's experiment. This is like, it's not common

1016
00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:34,480
Speaker 2: for there to be compensation for damages and significant amounts

1017
00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:36,399
Speaker 2: in Germany. In the same way it is in the US.

1018
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:39,520
Speaker 2: This is like a scene is a significant amount after

1019
00:54:39,840 --> 00:54:43,799
Speaker 2: the Senate makes this basically and the Senate apologizes, right,

1020
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:45,520
Speaker 2: so not only do they give them money, they're like, OK,

1021
00:54:45,719 --> 00:54:49,480
Speaker 2: this was bad, this was a fuck up. Christopher Schweer,

1022
00:54:49,560 --> 00:54:52,960
Speaker 2: the AfD advisor, advises Marco and Spinn to keep fighting

1023
00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:56,319
Speaker 2: at this point, to like basically be posters for this

1024
00:54:56,480 --> 00:54:59,680
Speaker 2: movement where you're basically where you're arguing. Kind of everything

1025
00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:03,400
Speaker 2: about sex said in Germany is based in Kintler and

1026
00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:06,799
Speaker 2: that's evil. Marco is like, well, I don't understand why

1027
00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:09,000
Speaker 2: I would do that. Like, we've got our wishes. There's

1028
00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:12,319
Speaker 2: no point in continuing to like fight the Senate. They

1029
00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:15,279
Speaker 2: did the thing that we wanted them to do, quote

1030
00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:18,720
Speaker 2: from The New Yorker. But Schweer kept pushing him. Marco said,

1031
00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:22,280
Speaker 2: Schweer denies this. Then I slowly got suspicious. That's Marco.

1032
00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:25,000
Speaker 2: I asked myself, what else should I want. That's when

1033
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:27,000
Speaker 2: I got the feeling that the AfD just wants to

1034
00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:28,719
Speaker 2: use me to play me up, and I said, I

1035
00:55:28,719 --> 00:55:30,600
Speaker 2: don't want to be a political tool. I don't want

1036
00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:34,719
Speaker 2: to get pulled into an election campaign and it's just

1037
00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:40,080
Speaker 2: like it's remarkable to me, Like, how fucking dope this

1038
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:43,239
Speaker 2: guy is, Like how strong you have to be to

1039
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:49,440
Speaker 2: like make yourself into the man he became given what

1040
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:54,160
Speaker 2: was done to him. It's a really remarkable story. Yeah,

1041
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:58,239
Speaker 2: so I guess this bastard's episode ended with a cool

1042
00:55:58,280 --> 00:56:04,239
Speaker 2: person who did cool stuff. Yeah, congratulations Marco. Yeah, Oh,

1043
00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:12,720
Speaker 2: how are we feeling at the end of this all, Markret?

1044
00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:16,000
Speaker 3: I actually feel okay. So I expected to just feel

1045
00:56:16,040 --> 00:56:19,880
Speaker 3: absolutely awful, And it's not just it helps that you.

1046
00:56:20,239 --> 00:56:24,520
Speaker 3: I really appreciated you ending with something something a little positive,

1047
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:29,319
Speaker 3: but also I like learned a lot in terms of

1048
00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:30,839
Speaker 3: you know, it's just like, oh, there's some bad people

1049
00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:35,399
Speaker 3: and they do bad stuff, right instead this like there's

1050
00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:39,560
Speaker 3: this thing that every ideology, like you're even in this

1051
00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:42,480
Speaker 3: where you're talking about like the left and the liberal

1052
00:56:42,480 --> 00:56:46,160
Speaker 3: government are two different ideologies, right, and both of these

1053
00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:52,520
Speaker 3: stories have had like pedophilia injected into them and then

1054
00:56:52,600 --> 00:56:55,000
Speaker 3: baked into an ideological structure. And one of them is

1055
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:57,799
Speaker 3: the ideological structure of the foster care system, and the

1056
00:56:57,840 --> 00:57:01,400
Speaker 3: other is of the like kindergarten system of radicals or whatever.

1057
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:07,080
Speaker 3: And so it's just like every ideology across the board.

1058
00:57:08,239 --> 00:57:13,880
Speaker 3: If there's a way that pedophiles can try to interchect

1059
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:18,280
Speaker 3: their awful nightmare ideas into it, they like will and do,

1060
00:57:19,080 --> 00:57:25,720
Speaker 3: and so I appreciate watching that stop. I appreciate that,

1061
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:31,480
Speaker 3: like feminist discourse was able to interject and say, hey,

1062
00:57:31,600 --> 00:57:34,000
Speaker 3: this is actually bad. And then like, and it's interesting

1063
00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:36,720
Speaker 3: because you mentioned the maybe Austrian or check or something,

1064
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:39,600
Speaker 3: the guy who wrote the essay that was like, actually

1065
00:57:39,600 --> 00:57:41,880
Speaker 3: you can't have any consensual relationship.

1066
00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:42,400
Speaker 4: Who was that?

1067
00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:43,080
Speaker 3: One?

1068
00:57:43,120 --> 00:57:47,880
Speaker 2: Second Hungarian psychoanalyst Sandor Farinsky and so a Forrensy.

1069
00:57:48,040 --> 00:57:50,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, It's one of those things where it's like, you know,

1070
00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:53,200
Speaker 3: because I became an adult after that paper was written,

1071
00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:58,000
Speaker 3: I sort of take it for granted that well don't

1072
00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:02,040
Speaker 3: we know that? Yeah, But I'm like, I have been obvious, yeah,

1073
00:58:02,080 --> 00:58:05,040
Speaker 3: And I'm like, somehow wasn't. And I try not to

1074
00:58:05,080 --> 00:58:07,280
Speaker 3: always sit in judgment of the people of the past.

1075
00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:10,040
Speaker 3: But there's like some stuff where like slavery and pedophilia,

1076
00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:15,160
Speaker 3: where I'm like, sure, no, yeah, that was people and bad. Yeah,

1077
00:58:15,160 --> 00:58:17,960
Speaker 3: and lots of people knew it, you know, And actually

1078
00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:21,280
Speaker 3: slavery is like a weirdly comparable thing where like everyone's

1079
00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:23,760
Speaker 3: like every ideology came up with a way to make

1080
00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:26,560
Speaker 3: it okay, and then people of every ideology were like,

1081
00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:30,240
Speaker 3: well except certain ideologies that were just pro slavery or whatever,

1082
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:33,200
Speaker 3: but like, yeah, overall people were like, I don't think

1083
00:58:33,200 --> 00:58:34,760
Speaker 3: you can like own a guy, and people like the

1084
00:58:34,760 --> 00:58:36,480
Speaker 3: Bible says you can own a guy, and other people

1085
00:58:36,640 --> 00:58:39,760
Speaker 3: be like, well, the Bible says fight to stop evils

1086
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:40,520
Speaker 3: and your evil.

1087
00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:45,640
Speaker 2: I'm going to pick these paragraphs and not those ones, right, yeah, yeah,

1088
00:58:45,680 --> 00:58:47,840
Speaker 2: I'm going to pick the I'm going to pick the

1089
00:58:48,200 --> 00:58:51,320
Speaker 2: the the theorists on the left to like, I'm going

1090
00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:54,720
Speaker 2: to pick the academic to recent Netwig who started who

1091
00:58:54,800 --> 00:58:58,280
Speaker 2: like lost a position in academia because she wanted to

1092
00:58:58,320 --> 00:59:03,600
Speaker 2: expose Kintler and not Kintler. You know you this is

1093
00:59:03,640 --> 00:59:08,440
Speaker 2: why again, you're you're rooting. If you're rooting everything in

1094
00:59:08,520 --> 00:59:11,320
Speaker 2: ideology to the point where you can't see anything else,

1095
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:14,280
Speaker 2: it makes you vulnerable to this sort of thing. There

1096
00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:17,880
Speaker 2: should be you need, like you need like your own

1097
00:59:17,960 --> 00:59:22,040
Speaker 2: personal like you know, not not to I don't know

1098
00:59:22,080 --> 00:59:24,439
Speaker 2: the US government the way we do things. Obviously there's

1099
00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:25,920
Speaker 2: a lot of flaws. But one of the things that

1100
00:59:25,960 --> 00:59:28,240
Speaker 2: provide some protections that we have a bill of rights,

1101
00:59:28,600 --> 00:59:30,560
Speaker 2: and you kind of have to have a personal bill

1102
00:59:30,680 --> 00:59:35,800
Speaker 2: of like what are my lines politically totally morally what's

1103
00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:38,320
Speaker 2: not It's like, how I have a personal line that

1104
00:59:38,760 --> 00:59:43,280
Speaker 2: if you're killing children, I don't care why you're justifying it.

1105
00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:47,040
Speaker 2: I don't care if your political cause is righteous, I

1106
00:59:47,040 --> 00:59:50,240
Speaker 2: don't care if they're the basis kids, you shouldn't kill kids.

1107
00:59:50,480 --> 00:59:54,600
Speaker 3: That the people thought immediately, Yeah it's one of my lines, Yeah,

1108
00:59:54,680 --> 00:59:57,320
Speaker 3: don't kill children. And it like he gets into this

1109
00:59:57,360 --> 01:00:00,000
Speaker 3: awkward thing. We're like overall, I'm pretty prone out terms.

1110
01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:02,680
Speaker 3: And then I'm like, well, there's a thing where I

1111
01:00:02,680 --> 01:00:04,800
Speaker 3: would have disagreed real strongly.

1112
01:00:05,240 --> 01:00:07,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think I would argue he was in a

1113
01:00:07,960 --> 01:00:10,200
Speaker 2: position where it was not possible for him to really

1114
01:00:10,240 --> 01:00:15,200
Speaker 2: take better actions because of what white slavery does to people.

1115
01:00:15,480 --> 01:00:18,120
Speaker 3: I think that's completely fair, and I am not like, yeah,

1116
01:00:18,120 --> 01:00:20,040
Speaker 3: I'm not coming out against not certain right.

1117
01:00:20,920 --> 01:00:24,160
Speaker 2: His desperation was like they were not going to win,

1118
01:00:24,320 --> 01:00:25,360
Speaker 2: and like, well what do you do?

1119
01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:25,640
Speaker 4: Then?

1120
01:00:25,800 --> 01:00:27,440
Speaker 2: You know, what do you do? Do you stop that?

1121
01:00:27,520 --> 01:00:29,800
Speaker 2: I don't know? This is all these things are messy.

1122
01:00:30,480 --> 01:00:33,120
Speaker 2: Morality is messy, but it's also easy to hold a

1123
01:00:33,160 --> 01:00:35,520
Speaker 2: line that says, I don't think it's okay to kill kids.

1124
01:00:35,560 --> 01:00:38,200
Speaker 2: I don't think adults should be fucking kids. These are

1125
01:00:38,240 --> 01:00:41,800
Speaker 2: not acceptable behaviors like child rape is not acceptable, child

1126
01:00:41,920 --> 01:00:46,240
Speaker 2: murder is not acceptable. My politics have to agree with

1127
01:00:46,320 --> 01:00:49,560
Speaker 2: my morals because those are removable, right.

1128
01:00:49,760 --> 01:00:53,600
Speaker 3: Right, And there's the difference between using an ideological label

1129
01:00:53,640 --> 01:00:57,840
Speaker 3: as your your definition versus your description. I have a

1130
01:00:57,880 --> 01:01:01,040
Speaker 3: set of things that I believe in, and those things

1131
01:01:01,400 --> 01:01:05,560
Speaker 3: map closest for me to what I would call anarchism, right, Yeah,

1132
01:01:05,560 --> 01:01:07,240
Speaker 3: but it's not I don't sit there at the end

1133
01:01:07,280 --> 01:01:09,240
Speaker 3: of the day and think, well, as an anarchist, what

1134
01:01:09,280 --> 01:01:12,280
Speaker 3: should I do? I think as me and what I believe,

1135
01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:15,720
Speaker 3: what do I do? And so if if the label,

1136
01:01:16,040 --> 01:01:19,160
Speaker 3: the label doesn't that's not what's important here. I don't pick,

1137
01:01:19,520 --> 01:01:21,280
Speaker 3: you know, even as like like a trans girl or whatever.

1138
01:01:21,320 --> 01:01:22,680
Speaker 3: I don't like wake up in the morning and be like,

1139
01:01:22,720 --> 01:01:24,320
Speaker 3: what does a trans girl do? I'm like, no, I

1140
01:01:24,320 --> 01:01:28,560
Speaker 3: do what I do. And then the closest gender label

1141
01:01:28,640 --> 01:01:31,720
Speaker 3: to what I do in my own head is transgirl.

1142
01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:35,440
Speaker 3: And yeah, that is we get so caught up in it.

1143
01:01:36,080 --> 01:01:38,919
Speaker 2: I think a root of when we talk about these

1144
01:01:39,160 --> 01:01:41,600
Speaker 2: The kind of middle part of these very uncomfortable episodes

1145
01:01:41,640 --> 01:01:44,760
Speaker 2: were all of these like German parents who didn't were

1146
01:01:44,880 --> 01:01:48,480
Speaker 2: uncomfortable with sexualizing their children, but thought they had to

1147
01:01:48,600 --> 01:01:52,040
Speaker 2: for ideological reasons. And when I when I, when I

1148
01:01:52,040 --> 01:01:53,560
Speaker 2: read about people doing that, it's like, oh, well, you

1149
01:01:53,560 --> 01:01:56,200
Speaker 2: don't know who you are. That's why you were, Well,

1150
01:01:56,320 --> 01:01:58,880
Speaker 2: you had no idea who you were, right, totally. You

1151
01:01:59,520 --> 01:02:03,640
Speaker 2: took on this ideology because it comfortingly gave you an identity,

1152
01:02:04,120 --> 01:02:07,720
Speaker 2: but you didn't. You hadn't figured out the person that

1153
01:02:07,760 --> 01:02:10,440
Speaker 2: you wear. You were using your ideology as an excuse

1154
01:02:10,520 --> 01:02:13,240
Speaker 2: to not do that, And that is again that makes

1155
01:02:13,280 --> 01:02:16,840
Speaker 2: you vulnerable about to stuff like this. You know you

1156
01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:20,400
Speaker 2: do even when you realize like, oh, how clearly, like

1157
01:02:20,480 --> 01:02:23,600
Speaker 2: certain things politically are obvious, you know, are obviously right,

1158
01:02:23,800 --> 01:02:26,880
Speaker 2: you know are obviously wrong. That doesn't that's not an

1159
01:02:26,920 --> 01:02:29,360
Speaker 2: excuse to not figure out who you are.

1160
01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:33,840
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, and then the people who are against because

1161
01:02:33,880 --> 01:02:36,240
Speaker 3: right now in the US discourse, the people who are

1162
01:02:36,240 --> 01:02:39,360
Speaker 3: so actively against and militantly against pedophilia, the people who

1163
01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:41,680
Speaker 3: are claiming that are often these like far right people

1164
01:02:41,680 --> 01:02:44,440
Speaker 3: who are actually against like me existing and giving talks

1165
01:02:44,440 --> 01:02:47,200
Speaker 3: in public because I like wear a dress or something

1166
01:02:47,560 --> 01:02:50,360
Speaker 3: right and that, and so in some ways people are

1167
01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:52,840
Speaker 3: then becoming useful idiots because I listened to everything you're saying,

1168
01:02:52,840 --> 01:02:55,240
Speaker 3: and I'm like, man, I I sure wouldn't be sad

1169
01:02:55,240 --> 01:02:57,040
Speaker 3: if someone broke into that man's house and shot him

1170
01:02:57,040 --> 01:02:57,360
Speaker 3: to death.

1171
01:02:57,600 --> 01:03:01,520
Speaker 2: Now, but that would have been dope. Yeah, but several

1172
01:03:01,560 --> 01:03:03,760
Speaker 2: men in this story should have been murdered.

1173
01:03:04,160 --> 01:03:10,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, and yeah, and what's hard is that, but

1174
01:03:11,000 --> 01:03:13,840
Speaker 4: you can also convince people that people need to get

1175
01:03:13,880 --> 01:03:16,400
Speaker 4: murdered as if they are the same as that thing,

1176
01:03:16,600 --> 01:03:18,280
Speaker 4: Like this is like part of why it's so aggravating

1177
01:03:18,280 --> 01:03:20,200
Speaker 4: when they're like, oh, they conflated it with like the

1178
01:03:20,240 --> 01:03:23,680
Speaker 4: Green Party conflating it with homosexuality, and so people are like, yeah,

1179
01:03:23,680 --> 01:03:26,400
Speaker 4: it's conflated, so kill all the gays and like, no,

1180
01:03:27,160 --> 01:03:29,240
Speaker 4: stop pedophilia.

1181
01:03:28,520 --> 01:03:30,800
Speaker 3: And if violence is necessary to stop it, I don't care,

1182
01:03:31,640 --> 01:03:34,880
Speaker 3: you know, but like it's so.

1183
01:03:36,680 --> 01:03:39,560
Speaker 2: I think this is as we deal with as we

1184
01:03:39,600 --> 01:03:41,160
Speaker 2: talked about the end of this, like the kind of

1185
01:03:41,200 --> 01:03:44,320
Speaker 2: the really bad faith right wing sort of how they

1186
01:03:44,360 --> 01:03:47,160
Speaker 2: make use of this while ignoring their own complicity and

1187
01:03:47,240 --> 01:03:51,080
Speaker 2: child molestation, which is constant both in religious organizations and

1188
01:03:51,280 --> 01:03:55,840
Speaker 2: stuff like Christian Organization's lobbying for child marriage right, which

1189
01:03:55,880 --> 01:03:58,120
Speaker 2: is the norm in the US. Bucking Ted Cruz is

1190
01:03:58,120 --> 01:04:00,520
Speaker 2: a big fan of children being able to get and

1191
01:04:00,560 --> 01:04:05,200
Speaker 2: that's supporting a kind of pedophilia. It is politically motivated abuse,

1192
01:04:05,320 --> 01:04:07,560
Speaker 2: you know, in the same way that these fucked up

1193
01:04:07,640 --> 01:04:10,680
Speaker 2: leftists are. But the fact that the right does this

1194
01:04:10,800 --> 01:04:14,080
Speaker 2: and has in the current period more political success doing

1195
01:04:14,120 --> 01:04:17,600
Speaker 2: this sort of thing doesn't mean we can ignore this history,

1196
01:04:18,120 --> 01:04:21,440
Speaker 2: because like it's important, not just maybe we're maybe we

1197
01:04:21,480 --> 01:04:25,120
Speaker 2: will never again have influential pedophiles on the left, you know,

1198
01:04:25,920 --> 01:04:29,040
Speaker 2: pushing through these kind of politics into like actual action.

1199
01:04:29,440 --> 01:04:31,680
Speaker 2: Maybe I don't know that I think that's made, but

1200
01:04:31,720 --> 01:04:34,640
Speaker 2: there will be and currently is in fact other things.

1201
01:04:34,960 --> 01:04:35,160
Speaker 3: Right.

1202
01:04:35,520 --> 01:04:39,480
Speaker 2: This is why you have to like have certain immovable

1203
01:04:39,560 --> 01:04:42,800
Speaker 2: moral beliefs about what's okay to do to people, and

1204
01:04:42,840 --> 01:04:45,640
Speaker 2: why you also have to be willing to like like

1205
01:04:45,680 --> 01:04:49,160
Speaker 2: those academics we talked about who endured that harassment campaign

1206
01:04:49,480 --> 01:04:53,200
Speaker 2: when they were like, well, obviously it's wrong to rape children, right,

1207
01:04:53,920 --> 01:04:56,600
Speaker 2: They had zines made about them being evil. You know,

1208
01:04:57,400 --> 01:04:59,920
Speaker 2: You've got that fucking anarchist journalist being like these other

1209
01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:02,240
Speaker 2: they are anarchists who don't like what I'm doing. They

1210
01:05:02,240 --> 01:05:04,720
Speaker 2: don't really believe in lived anarchy, you know.

1211
01:05:04,880 --> 01:05:07,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, like like you know, what if that if I

1212
01:05:07,040 --> 01:05:09,120
Speaker 3: thought that was true, if I thought anarchy meant that,

1213
01:05:09,280 --> 01:05:13,400
Speaker 3: I wouldn't be an anarchist anymore. Not. Yes, of course

1214
01:05:13,880 --> 01:05:15,440
Speaker 3: the important thing here isn't the label.

1215
01:05:15,960 --> 01:05:19,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, but to the people who for whom the important

1216
01:05:19,120 --> 01:05:22,320
Speaker 2: thing is the label, hearing something like that can be

1217
01:05:22,360 --> 01:05:26,160
Speaker 2: a thought terminating phrase, Right, you're not practicing lived anarchy, Well,

1218
01:05:26,200 --> 01:05:28,360
Speaker 2: then you stop thinking about what the actual issues is,

1219
01:05:28,400 --> 01:05:31,400
Speaker 2: Like those guys molesting homeless kids, right, you start to

1220
01:05:31,400 --> 01:05:34,240
Speaker 2: think about, like, well, ideologically, where am I on that? No? No, no, no,

1221
01:05:34,520 --> 01:05:34,960
Speaker 2: just hit the.

1222
01:05:34,920 --> 01:05:38,600
Speaker 3: Guy, right, you know, like you're good totally Yeah, like

1223
01:05:39,040 --> 01:05:40,560
Speaker 3: three knives for the homeless kids.

1224
01:05:40,920 --> 01:05:43,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, three knives were homeless kids.

1225
01:05:43,760 --> 01:05:43,960
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1226
01:05:46,720 --> 01:05:50,240
Speaker 3: Tell you, I never met anyone who practiced stabbing more

1227
01:05:50,360 --> 01:05:53,440
Speaker 3: than my when I was when I was a teenage

1228
01:05:53,440 --> 01:05:55,640
Speaker 3: street kid and one of my friends was a teenage

1229
01:05:56,240 --> 01:06:01,960
Speaker 3: sex working street kid. That kid was stabby and he

1230
01:06:02,840 --> 01:06:06,120
Speaker 3: probably learned to be. I hope he is alive and well.

1231
01:06:06,440 --> 01:06:09,920
Speaker 2: Mm hmm yep, and I hope uh he still has

1232
01:06:09,960 --> 01:06:10,920
Speaker 2: a knife, you.

1233
01:06:10,880 --> 01:06:12,760
Speaker 3: Know, if you want to read about teenage, can I

1234
01:06:12,800 --> 01:06:15,120
Speaker 3: have an awful segue into my yes?

1235
01:06:15,280 --> 01:06:15,960
Speaker 2: No, no, no, great?

1236
01:06:16,000 --> 01:06:18,560
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, you want to read about teenagers learning

1237
01:06:18,600 --> 01:06:23,280
Speaker 3: to find themselves and using medieval weaponry? I have a

1238
01:06:24,240 --> 01:06:26,560
Speaker 3: when I say ya book. It's actually a crossover book.

1239
01:06:26,600 --> 01:06:31,120
Speaker 3: It's a book that admits that its audience is also adults.

1240
01:06:32,200 --> 01:06:34,160
Speaker 3: And it's called The Sapling Cage and it is coming

1241
01:06:34,160 --> 01:06:37,120
Speaker 3: out from Feminist Press in September, but it has been

1242
01:06:37,240 --> 01:06:40,960
Speaker 3: kickstarted in June and you can sign up now on

1243
01:06:41,040 --> 01:06:45,160
Speaker 3: the kickstarter for more information about it. And Robert read it,

1244
01:06:45,520 --> 01:06:48,440
Speaker 3: and so before it has to be good. It's great

1245
01:06:48,440 --> 01:06:49,320
Speaker 3: book books.

1246
01:06:49,120 --> 01:06:51,480
Speaker 2: A lot of good spear talk in it, which I'm

1247
01:06:51,520 --> 01:06:54,480
Speaker 2: always a fan of. We need to renormalize the use

1248
01:06:54,520 --> 01:06:56,680
Speaker 2: of spears as a personal defense weapon.

1249
01:06:57,760 --> 01:07:00,920
Speaker 3: You know, the way in which some people in street

1250
01:07:00,920 --> 01:07:04,840
Speaker 3: demonstrations use long polls is a very similar thing. Spears

1251
01:07:04,880 --> 01:07:06,640
Speaker 3: are very good at making space.

1252
01:07:07,360 --> 01:07:10,720
Speaker 2: Yes, you need to be PELANX maxing with your friends

1253
01:07:10,880 --> 01:07:14,040
Speaker 2: and colleagues, right, you know, you need to be protecting,

1254
01:07:14,160 --> 01:07:17,520
Speaker 2: covering each other with your shield arm, moving as a unit,

1255
01:07:17,640 --> 01:07:20,760
Speaker 2: learning how to wheel on command, and preparing to face

1256
01:07:20,800 --> 01:07:23,320
Speaker 2: cavalry charges. These are the kind of things that the

1257
01:07:23,400 --> 01:07:24,560
Speaker 2: kids need to be into.

1258
01:07:24,760 --> 01:07:31,480
Speaker 3: All of those things for America, Watch out for the Cossacks.

1259
01:07:31,840 --> 01:07:34,919
Speaker 2: Watch out for the Cossacks. They're still around and they're

1260
01:07:34,960 --> 01:07:38,720
Speaker 2: not the original Cossacks. Those guys are actually fighting right now.

1261
01:07:43,280 --> 01:07:45,800
Speaker 2: Uh Anyway, Good.

1262
01:07:45,560 --> 01:07:52,560
Speaker 1: Stuff Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1263
01:07:52,680 --> 01:07:55,320
Speaker 1: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

1264
01:07:55,360 --> 01:07:59,320
Speaker 1: Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1265
01:07:59,400 --> 01:08:01,720
Speaker 1: Apple podcas pass, or wherever you get your podcast.