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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece.

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Speaker 2: Brian Coburger, the quadruple murder suspect.

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Speaker 3: In the Idaho Slaves.

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Speaker 2: Of four Beautiful Students, a crime scene like no other

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Speaker 2: crime scene. Texan detectives say they've never seen anything like it.

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Speaker 2: In the face of DNA matching Brian Coburger in the

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Speaker 2: face of selfhone doubt is showing him leaving the scene

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Speaker 2: the night of the murders on the securitist route to

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Speaker 2: his own apartment, in the face of evidence that he

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Speaker 2: had been contacting the young co.

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Speaker 3: Eds prior to the murders. What does the defense do?

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Speaker 2: They claim I wasn't there. It's called, under the law,

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Speaker 2: an alibi defense, and they're playing hide the ball now

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Speaker 2: you see it now they don't. But is there really

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Speaker 2: even a ball or is it just a big lie?

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Speaker 2: Because they're saying that we have an alibi for Brian

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Speaker 2: Cyberger the night of the murders, at the time of

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Speaker 2: the murders, but we're not going to tell you what

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Speaker 2: it is.

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Speaker 3: I'm Nacy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation

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Speaker 2: in series Sex sem one eleven. First of all, take

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Speaker 2: a listen to this our friends at KTVB.

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Speaker 4: The attorney for Brian Coberger, the man accused of murdering

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Speaker 4: four University of Idaho students, has filed a response to

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Speaker 4: the state's demand that he produced an alibi. That response

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Speaker 4: was filed yesterday. In it, his attorney, An Taylor, says

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Speaker 4: evidence corroborating mister Coberger being at a location other than

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Speaker 4: the King Road address will be disclosed pursuant to discovery

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Speaker 4: and evidentiary rules as well as statutory requirements.

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Speaker 5: Defense attorneys for Brian Colberger now suggesting that he had

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Speaker 5: an alibi the nine four University of Idaho students were murdered,

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Speaker 5: and a new court filing, defense attorneys claimed to have

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Speaker 5: evidence the WSU criminology student was not at the home

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Speaker 5: where the murders took place last fall. However, they did

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Speaker 5: not provide any details backing up that story, saying instead

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Speaker 5: that it would come out a trial.

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Speaker 2: Okay, he's got an alibi, a rock solid alibi, but

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to tell you. You were also hearing our

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Speaker 2: friends at Fox thirteen and now take a listen to

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Speaker 2: our friends at crime Online.

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Speaker 6: Even though Brian Coberger was required to submit an alibi,

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Speaker 6: explaining where he was the night four University of Idaho

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Speaker 6: students were murdered. His defense team filed court document showing

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Speaker 6: Coburger is choosing to remain silent, and a document filed

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Speaker 6: with the court Coberger's public defender, An Taylor, said, quote

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Speaker 6: Mister Coberger notes that Idaho Code nineteen dash five p.

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Speaker 6: One ninety four preserves his constitutional right to silence as

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Speaker 6: well as to testify on his own behalf the document

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Speaker 6: filed by his public defender, and Taylor goes on to state,

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Speaker 6: mister Koberger stands firm on his constitutional right as well

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Speaker 6: as the statutory recognition of that right now, even though

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Speaker 6: he has chosen not to explain where he was at

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Speaker 6: the time of the murder. In the court filing, Taylor wrote,

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Speaker 6: it has anticipated this evidence may be offered by a

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Speaker 6: way of cross examination of witnesses produced by the state,

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Speaker 6: as well as calling expert witnesses.

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Speaker 3: You know what, I learned a lot in law school.

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Speaker 2: I learned a lot trying cases for so many years,

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Speaker 2: criminal cases and murder cases. And I can tell you

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Speaker 2: this much. I learned all I need to know about

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Speaker 2: this growing up near a farm. I know bs when

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Speaker 2: I smell it, and that is bs very simply, the

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Speaker 2: law requires you, when you're going to bring up an alibi,

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Speaker 2: to give notice of what the alibi is, just like

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Speaker 2: the law requires the state to hand over its witness

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Speaker 2: list and any scientific evidence it might be using a trial,

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Speaker 2: like DNA evidence or fingerprint evidence. You hand that over

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Speaker 2: at a time so the other side has a fair

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Speaker 2: chance to evaluate it and cross examine it. Same thing

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Speaker 2: with alibi. You hand over your alibi to the state

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Speaker 2: so they have a chance to test the evidence before

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Speaker 2: it comes in at trial. We don't have trial by ambush.

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Speaker 2: That's not what our justice system is about. So what

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Speaker 2: the defense is doing here is arguing two very very

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Speaker 2: valued and protected tenants in our Constitution. Number one, I

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Speaker 2: have a right to bring on an alibi, and I

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Speaker 2: have a right to remain silent.

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Speaker 3: But now the twain shall meet.

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Speaker 2: In other words, if you want to use an alibi,

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Speaker 2: you've got to hand it over ahead of time. The

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Speaker 2: Fifth Amendment right to remain silent does not apply to

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Speaker 2: following legal procedure at court.

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Speaker 3: And oh did I mention?

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Speaker 2: Not only does Coburger claim he's got an alibi which

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Speaker 2: he's keeping a deep dark secret.

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Speaker 3: But he's also.

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Speaker 2: Claiming, you know that DNA found at the scene that

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Speaker 2: traces back to him. He's also claiming, wait for it,

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Speaker 2: it was planted. Who are they going to bring on

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Speaker 2: as an expert? Oj Simpson again, I mean, I s

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Speaker 2: he gracing. This is crime Stories. Thanks for being with

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Speaker 2: us straight out to an all star panel to make

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Speaker 2: sense of what we know right now. And first, I'm

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Speaker 2: going to a veteran trial lawyer joining us from that

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Speaker 2: jurisdiction in Idaho, Tara Malick, high profile lawyer, co owner

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Speaker 2: Smith and Malick and former state and federal prosecutor. She's

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Speaker 2: at Smith Malick dot com. By the way, I think

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Speaker 2: your name should be first. It should be Malick Smith.

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Speaker 2: But that's for another day. Tara, this is total BS.

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Speaker 2: You can't claim that you're right to remain silent supersedes

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Speaker 2: your duty to hand over your alibi.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, you're exactly right.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's stinking up the whole studio.

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Speaker 7: It is a non answer.

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Speaker 8: And the funniest part about it is the court filing

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Speaker 8: that the defense file says we're going to We're going

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Speaker 8: to disclose this evidence according to Idaho law and the

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Speaker 8: statutes and the rules and it's like, well, but you didn't.

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Speaker 8: So Idaho law requires if you're going to provide notice

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Speaker 8: of the ALBI to identify the location that you're claiming,

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Speaker 8: you're going to be as well as any witnesses that

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Speaker 8: you're going to rely on.

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Speaker 7: And so the defense coming in and saying.

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Speaker 8: Well, we may have been somewhere else and we may

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Speaker 8: provide that information through a cross examination of state witnesses

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Speaker 8: really is just the doubling down of their refusal to

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Speaker 8: provide that information in the first place.

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Speaker 7: And if you recall, they asked for more time earlier

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Speaker 7: early in June to try and get through the discovery here,

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Speaker 7: so they've really it'll be curious to see what.

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Speaker 8: The state's response is.

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Speaker 7: And I think they've got an uphill battle for sure.

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Speaker 2: Well I can tell you this right now, they're standing

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Speaker 2: on their heads and their faces are turning red.

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Speaker 3: That's what's happening right.

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Speaker 2: Now, because this is total bs and it makes me

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Speaker 2: question the lawyer. Now, I've never heard any questions regarding

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Speaker 2: her aptitude. I heard I heard murmurs and complaints and

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Speaker 2: grumbling that she had once represented one of the victims

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Speaker 2: family member and now dump that family member to represent Coburger.

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Speaker 2: That's a conflict of interest issue that does not bear

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Speaker 2: on the evidence in the Brian Coburger case.

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Speaker 3: This does I mean?

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Speaker 2: Cheryl McCollum, Correct me if I'm wrong. Cheryl McCollum is

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Speaker 2: with me, Founder director, Cold Case Research Institute, star a

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Speaker 2: Hitne podcast Zone seven and you can find her at

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Speaker 2: coldcasecrimes dot org. Cheryl, correct me if I'm wrong. But

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Speaker 2: isn't his cell phone caught? It's turned off at the

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Speaker 2: time of the murders, but then it turns on his

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Speaker 2: drive that night leaving the crime scene, according to police.

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Speaker 9: Direct and they also have his car on video going

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Speaker 9: past a filling station.

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Speaker 2: Oh gosh, wait, wait, wait, hold this thought, Cheryl McCollum.

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Speaker 2: He also says that's not his car. Okay, so that's

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Speaker 2: another thing we've got. Okay, we have. I've got an alibi,

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Speaker 2: but I'm going to keep it a deep, dark secret.

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Speaker 2: I wasn't there, and I'll let you catch that bomb

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Speaker 2: when I throw it at you in court. Number two,

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Speaker 2: you planned the DNA, by the way, and number three, Yeah.

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Speaker 3: That's not my car.

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Speaker 2: But what about the cell phone? The cell phone, Cheryl

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Speaker 2: McComb what did somebody else have a cell phone driving

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Speaker 2: from the murder scene all the way back to his

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Speaker 2: apartment the night of the murders.

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Speaker 9: That's right. So instead of the cell phone being on

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Speaker 9: his bedside tablet four in the morning and active, this

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Speaker 9: phone is pinging off different towers. And then before the murders,

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Speaker 9: it is engaged by the owner of that cell phone, Cob,

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Speaker 9: and he puts it on airplane mode, thinking that would

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Speaker 9: not you know, connect him to that house. It failed.

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Speaker 9: It failed, miserable, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, interesting, and I want to circle back to the

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Speaker 2: whole airplane mode try hold only I can note of that.

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Speaker 2: And also we got to circle back to him claiming

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Speaker 2: it's not his lantra. Joining me is Rachel Shilkey, breaking

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Speaker 2: news reporter for the Washington Examiner on Twitter. She's at

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Speaker 2: Rachel underscore, she'l key and that's if you want to

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Speaker 2: find her.

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Speaker 3: S not spelled the way it sounds s c h

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Speaker 3: I l k E. She'll key. Rachel, thank you for

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Speaker 3: being with us.

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Speaker 2: Let me just detour one minute off the alibi in

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Speaker 2: the DNA. What is he saying about his car and

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Speaker 2: that it's not his car?

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Speaker 10: Well, I think the defense is using that. There's a

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Speaker 10: lot of cars registered in the area, and that there

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Speaker 10: is a lot of chances that that couldn't be his.

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Speaker 10: But I think all the corroborating evidence shows that, you know,

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Speaker 10: lead in that direction that he is very unlikely that he.

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Speaker 11: Wasn't there.

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Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 3: So he's finding that there is.

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Speaker 2: That there are a lot of cars, a lot of

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Speaker 2: white Elauntris. And you know what's funny, funny odd You

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Speaker 2: know Chris mcdunnad joining me, Director at the Cold Case Foundation,

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Speaker 2: former homicide detective and host of an incredible YouTube channel

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Speaker 2: called The Interview Room. That's where I found him and

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Speaker 2: you can find him at Cold Case Foundation dot org.

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Speaker 3: Chris.

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Speaker 2: Ever since we heard about a white Elantra speeding away

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Speaker 2: from the scene, that's all I can see. Everywhere I go,

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Speaker 2: I see Elantris, white Elantris. So that's going to be

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Speaker 2: argued to the jury. You see a white Elantra everywhere

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Speaker 2: you go, just like with the phenomena of child molesters

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Speaker 2: darting off in a what a white van? Everybody knows it,

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Speaker 2: and they're going to argue that to the jury. How

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Speaker 2: many times have you seen a white launcha speedby? We

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Speaker 2: don't know it's his white Elantra. That's what they're gonna argue.

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Speaker 2: I'm shriveling up and dying right now. I can't believe

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Speaker 2: this is happening.

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Speaker 11: Yeah, and Nancy, you called it from the very beginning.

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Speaker 11: I mean, this is smoke and mirrors and they're utilizing,

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Speaker 11: you know, the court to get a narrative out there

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Speaker 11: into the public. I think it's terrible.

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Speaker 2: Oh wait, I like that idea. Okay, they're using the

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Speaker 2: court to get a narrative out there.

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Speaker 3: Okay. I think what you're saying in regular people Taught.

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Speaker 2: Is that they're using these motions to get their defense

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Speaker 2: disseminated to the public and take the jury pool.

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Speaker 3: And you know what, that's okay, that's okay. They have

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Speaker 3: a right to file these motions. We have a right

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Speaker 3: to talk about it.

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Speaker 2: And then in court they must find a jury that,

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Speaker 2: while they may have heard all this, will keep an

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Speaker 2: open mind. That's what they have to do. But you're right,

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Speaker 2: this is kind of a test run. I guarantee you, Tarmalik,

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Speaker 2: a high profile lawyer in the Idaho jurisdiction, I guarantee

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Speaker 2: you they're gonna watch and listen to every single thing

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Speaker 2: that's said about these defenses, And let me just give

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Speaker 2: you a blueprint. Scott Peterson in that case, who turned

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Speaker 2: out to be the lead defense attorney, and I would

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Speaker 2: argue every night on Larry King, May God bless his soul,

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Speaker 2: every night, and they would actually float theories on Larry King,

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Speaker 2: and I'd shoot them down as best as I could,

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Speaker 2: and then they would finally come up with their ultimate

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Speaker 2: theory of defense. Not that that was true, of course,

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Speaker 2: because it was, but they would see what floated.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if you remember.

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Speaker 2: There was the Hawaiian gang they said to Lacey.

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Speaker 3: There was the.

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Speaker 2: Theory that another woman was part of her kidnapp to

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Speaker 2: cut her baby out of her stomach. That was the theory.

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Speaker 2: There was the burglars next door theory. There were so

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Speaker 2: many theories about Lacey's disappearance to obfuscate the truth that

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Speaker 2: Scott Peterson killed her. And Mark Geragos, who's a really

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Speaker 2: good lawyer, would test those out on Larry King Live

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Speaker 2: every night, and that they would either float or they

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Speaker 2: would sink.

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Speaker 3: And that's what's happening right here. True story. What about it? Tara?

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Speaker 3: Are you Tara, No, you're not.

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Speaker 2: But since you haven't spoken yet Hold on Tara Lake

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Speaker 2: Way for doctor Bethany Marshall, she who must be obeyed,

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Speaker 2: high profile psycho analyst joining us out of Beverly Hills

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Speaker 2: at doctor Bethany Marshall dot com. Jump in, doctor Bethany,

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Speaker 2: I'm sure you're going to give us fade for thought.

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Speaker 12: The more simple and paranoid the messaging is, the more

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Speaker 12: it catches fire with the jewry pool and the public.

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Speaker 12: Like that a gang took Lazy. It's simple, a gang

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Speaker 12: took her. And the more often it's said on TV,

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Speaker 12: the more often it spreads. The most more often it's

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Speaker 12: set around dinner tables, the more mythology becomes the truth

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Speaker 12: in people's minds.

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Speaker 13: It's like O. J.

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Speaker 12: Simpson, as I said on one show, if it fits

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Speaker 12: you must.

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Speaker 2: Quit, please, I'm just about to talk about him, and

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Speaker 2: you had to go ahead and ruin my hot tea

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Speaker 2: with that guy.

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Speaker 12: Hey, I was living in Brentwood at the time all

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Speaker 12: of this went down, and we were all talking about

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Speaker 12: the fact that if it fits, you must to quit.

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Speaker 12: I mean, that was the that was the primary thing

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Speaker 12: that everybody was talking about. And then conversations spread out

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Speaker 12: from there. Well, whose glove was it, and everyone sort

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Speaker 12: of knew the guy that the tenant that was living there,

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Speaker 12: So it's not just this simple messaging and how catches.

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Speaker 2: Fire are you talking about?

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Speaker 12: Yes?

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Speaker 2: Yes, okay, just so everybody knows k too. Kilan who

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Speaker 2: I happened to know, did not do it.

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Speaker 13: He did not do it, but he was such a god.

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Speaker 12: But he was such a lovely person and a fun

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Speaker 12: character on TV.

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Speaker 3: He's a great person. He's like a surfer dude, good

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Speaker 3: guy to have around. He's like, uh huh what what murder?

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Speaker 14: What?

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Speaker 12: That is terrible?

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Speaker 3: And he is I mean and what I recall it?

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Speaker 2: He testified, and of course once the jury saw him

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Speaker 2: in his demeanor.

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Speaker 3: Uh, you know, likable, open, funny. No, that was not him.

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Speaker 12: They probably thought what was he going to do? Hit

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Speaker 12: the victim over the head with the surfboard. I mean,

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Speaker 12: he's that kind of a guy.

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Speaker 3: Exactly, exactly.

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Speaker 2: You know another thing about this, You know what, let

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Speaker 2: me just play our friends at crime online.

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Speaker 6: Brian Koberger was supposed to provide an alibi, but has

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Speaker 6: chosen a different path as his public defender and Taylor

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Speaker 6: provided in a court filing. Taylor said a defendant's denial

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Speaker 6: of the charges against him does not constitute an alibi,

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Speaker 6: but as soon as he offers evidence that he was

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Speaker 6: at some place other than where the crime of which

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Speaker 6: he is charged was committed, he is raising the alibi defense.

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Speaker 6: Mister Coberger's defense team continues investigating and preparing his case.

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Speaker 6: Evidence corroborating mister Coberger being at a location other than

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Speaker 6: the King Road address will be disclosed pursuant to discovery

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Speaker 6: and evidentiary rules as well as statutory requirements. Bottom Line,

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Speaker 6: Taylor says Coberger's alibi should come out in cross examination

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Speaker 6: of witnesses or through the calling of expert witnesses.

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Speaker 2: Just so you know, you don't have to have a

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Speaker 2: law degree to know that's a bunch of bs. We're

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Speaker 2: not going to tell you the alibi, but we're going

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Speaker 2: to extract it from the state's witnesses. And you know

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Speaker 2: they say that they're going to continue to investigate the case. Translation,

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Speaker 2: we're going to keep fishing until we find something some

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Speaker 2: way to argue an out. What I want to go

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Speaker 2: through quickly with Tarmalek, and it is a technical legal issue,

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Speaker 2: is okay, how can I say this, you know, in

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Speaker 2: a case where they don't have it in Idaho, but

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Speaker 2: in most jurisdictions there is an insanity defense. Okay, once

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Speaker 2: you raise the insanity defense, you're essentially saying, yes.

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Speaker 3: I did it, but I was insane.

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Speaker 2: Same thing with self defense, you're saying, yes, I totally

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Speaker 2: shot Jackie, but it was in self defense. It's in

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Speaker 2: those cases you have to admit to the incident and

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Speaker 2: then put up your defense with alibi. It's similar in

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Speaker 2: that it's somewhat burden shifting. When you go into trycases

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Speaker 2: of state, the burdens all on you. The defendant can

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Speaker 2: sit there and twiddle his thumbs and do nothing, and

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Speaker 2: that's okay. But once they say we have an alibi,

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Speaker 2: it seems as if kind of like when the defendant

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Speaker 2: takes a stand like in Alex Murdogg, the jury's.

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Speaker 3: Like, hmm, I don't know what to think. Then he

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Speaker 3: takes a stand there like he's a total lawyer. It

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Speaker 3: shifts the burden.

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Speaker 2: And when you put up an alibi defense, if your

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Speaker 2: alibi technical legal term sucks, then you lose. It becomes

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Speaker 2: all about what the defendant is saying.

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Speaker 3: Would you agree with that?

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Speaker 7: Taura absolutely? I mean it is an affirmative style of defense,

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Speaker 7: which is you're putting forward I wasn't there, and here

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Speaker 7: I was. Instead, you know, I was at this other location,

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Speaker 7: and here are the people who are going to be

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Speaker 7: able to say I was at the other location. So

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Speaker 7: you are, in a way committing to your storyline, and

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Speaker 7: you're committing to it pretty early on. And so that

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Speaker 7: may be one of the reasons why you know, they're

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Speaker 7: they're playing this kind of hopscots around the issue. Maybe

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Speaker 7: it'll come out, you know, when we cross the him

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Speaker 7: and the state's experts. But I still don't think that

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Speaker 7: this is compliant with what Idaho law requires as far

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Speaker 7: as an alibi defense. You know, curiously, even if they

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Speaker 7: chose to go with this alibi, whatever it may be,

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Speaker 7: wherever he's claiming he was, they're going to have a

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Speaker 7: really tough time explaining his first of all, his DNA

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Speaker 7: in the home on the ninth sheet, but also his

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Speaker 7: conduct when he was back in Pennsylvania. You know, he was,

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Speaker 7: he had gloves, he was, you know, sorting trash, he

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Speaker 7: had cleaned out his car. I mean, they've got a

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Speaker 7: real uphill battle here. It's not just I was somewhere else.

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Speaker 7: It's like, well, then, why were you acting in those

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Speaker 7: other ways, and I'm sure the state is gathering all

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Speaker 7: of that as well.

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Speaker 3: Nay, yes, yes, go ahead.

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Speaker 9: I want to remind everybody too, the day he was arrested,

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Speaker 9: the minute they put him in the interview room, he

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Speaker 9: had no alibi. He didn't give a this solid piece

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Speaker 9: of evidence that would.

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Speaker 13: Have excluded him.

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Speaker 9: Why not. And now that he's sitting in jail, he

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Speaker 9: has an attorney saying, hey, you know what, we know,

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Speaker 9: We've got this alibi, solid shows you were somewhere else.

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Speaker 9: But you just sit in that sale for another year

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Speaker 9: and then when we get to trial, we'll show them

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Speaker 9: that makes no sense to anybody.

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Speaker 3: Guys, there's another issue.

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Speaker 2: And the issue is not only are they saying they've

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Speaker 2: got an alibi but they're not going to tell us.

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Speaker 2: They're also saying, and this is a bombshell, that the

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Speaker 2: state planted the evidence. Take a listen to Our Cut,

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Speaker 2: five to nine, Crime Online, and Fox thirteen.

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Speaker 5: Colberger's lawyers have also attacked the DNA found at the

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Speaker 5: crime scene, which was matched to Coburger's genetic material and

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Speaker 5: emotion foul last month, as lawyer's question whether investigators may

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Speaker 5: have planted the DNA to frame Coburger prosecutor as far back,

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Speaker 5: saying that the genetic genealogy was far from the only

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Speaker 5: evidence used to build their case. Coberger is set to

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Speaker 5: go on trail in October if it's the death penalty

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Speaker 5: if convicted.

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Speaker 6: In the court filing, Coburger's defense suggests someone else may

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Speaker 6: have left Coburger's DNA on the knife sheath. What the

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Speaker 6: state's argument asked this court and mister Coberger to assume

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Speaker 6: is that the DNA on the sheath was placed there

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Speaker 6: by mister Coberger and not someone else during an investigation

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Speaker 6: that spans hundreds of members of law enforcement and apparently

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Speaker 6: at least one lab the state refuses to name with

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Speaker 6: me is.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Michelle Duprix, forensic pathologists, medical examiner, former detective, and

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Speaker 2: author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide, Doctor Michelle Duprie. When

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Speaker 2: you go onto a crime scene, what prophylactic measures do

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Speaker 2: you take to make sure you don't contaminate the darn scene?

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Speaker 13: We take all kinds of preventative measures. We sometimes dress

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Speaker 13: in complete tiebacksuits. We wear booties on our feet. We

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Speaker 13: certainly have on gloves, we may have on masks, we

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Speaker 13: may have on hairnets. I mean there are all sorts

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Speaker 13: of personal protective equipment that we use, and this is

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Speaker 13: an absolute ludicrous client. You know who I mean, who

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Speaker 13: would even try to convince them?

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Speaker 3: Well?

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Speaker 2: Wait, that's a really good question. Who would try that?

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Speaker 2: Take a list knock five three three crime online.

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Speaker 6: The OJ Simpson defense team realized early they had to

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Speaker 6: contest some of the blood results found at the Bundy

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Speaker 6: crime scene. The team focused on the back gate, where

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Speaker 6: a total of three samples were collected. The defense pointed

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Speaker 6: out that two were collected on June thirteenth, but the

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Speaker 6: third droplet was collected on July third, three weeks after

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Speaker 6: the crime scene was washed clean. How did the police

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Speaker 6: find a blood drop three weeks after the scene was clear.

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Speaker 6: The defense also locked into the bloody sock in Simpson's

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Speaker 6: bedroom that saw contained blood from Simpson and Brown. The

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Speaker 6: defense claimed EDTA was found in the third blood drop

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Speaker 6: at Bundy that was all Simpson, and DTA was found

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Speaker 6: in Nicole Brown's blood on the sock. DTA is used

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Speaker 6: in the police lab as an antiquagulant. DTA was found

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Speaker 6: in Simpson's blood drop on the back gate and Nicole

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Speaker 6: Brown's blow on the sock in Simpson's bedroom. The defense

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Speaker 6: points out EDTA is not naturally occurring and must have

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Speaker 6: come from the LAPD crime.

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Speaker 2: Lab and not just OJ Simpson. Mayhe rotten Hill after

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Speaker 2: he dies, but Stephen Avery as well.

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Speaker 3: Take a listen now cut five three seven.

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Speaker 15: Wisn attorney for Stephen Avery just filed new paperwork in

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Speaker 15: an effort to overturn his murder conviction. Avery is serving

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Speaker 15: a life term in the two thousand and five murder

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Speaker 15: of photographer Teresa Halbach. That case got worldwide attention in

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Speaker 15: the Netflix series Making a Murderer. Avery's team claims someone

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Speaker 15: else killed Halbach and planted evidence on Avery's property. They

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Speaker 15: say they have new witnesses and evidence. The forty six

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Speaker 15: page document filed today asks the state to grant Avery

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Speaker 15: either an evident shary hearing or a new trial. The

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Speaker 15: state rejected a similar request last year.

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Speaker 2: So that's two that I can think, just off the

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Speaker 2: top of my head. Joining me now for as it.

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Speaker 2: Consultant specializing in DNA zerology bloodstain, Toby Wilson at Noslow

438
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 2: Forensic dot Com. Toby, what type of measures are taken

439
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:10,639
Speaker 2: so you don't contaminate the scene, especially after O J.

440
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:12,119
Speaker 3: Simpson's debacle.

441
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:16,240
Speaker 14: It's it's a this isn't a contamination argument here. First

442
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 14: of all, contamination means that the evidence was mishandled, mispackaged,

443
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:26,200
Speaker 14: something was done that caused the DNA of the defendant

444
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:30,800
Speaker 14: to be transferred to that item accidentally or on purpose.

445
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,439
Speaker 14: That that is not this is not a contamination argument

446
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 14: they're putting forth. This is one saying that he's been

447
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:40,160
Speaker 14: he's been framed, so that they're basically saying the lab

448
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 14: or the police had his DNA put it on that

449
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:46,440
Speaker 14: sheaf or somebody else put it on that sheath, then

450
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:49,359
Speaker 14: planeted at the crime scene so that he would ultimately

451
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,720
Speaker 14: be detected, which becomes a very common in this case,

452
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:56,240
Speaker 14: a convoluted situation because first of all, they had a

453
00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:00,159
Speaker 14: DNA profile from him long before he ever became the

454
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 14: focus of this investigation. They had what we would refer

455
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,879
Speaker 14: to as a foreign profile from an unknown source, and

456
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 14: so if it was Plannet, first of all, it wouldn't

457
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:16,400
Speaker 14: be an unknown source. There'd be some type of profile

458
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,440
Speaker 14: already in the DNA database or somebody you know would

459
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 14: have had to have a sample of his DNA to

460
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 14: put on there. So you know, the contamination argument doesn't

461
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 14: apply here. The planet argument is so convoluted that it's

462
00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 14: not realistic. So I don't think the jury o'paul or

463
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 14: something like that.

464
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:38,439
Speaker 2: So Cheryl and Plane taught that you would tell a

465
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 2: jury capsulize that.

466
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:44,399
Speaker 9: So let's say, go Jay Simpson. In order for the

467
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:48,240
Speaker 9: police to have planted blood his blood, they would have

468
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,720
Speaker 9: to know that he was injured. If you remember he

469
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 9: went and went to Chicago. They didn't know he was cut.

470
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:57,320
Speaker 9: That ain't how they would have set him up. If

471
00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 9: he were have been set up, a bloody murder weapon

472
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 9: would have been there. In the case of Coburger, when

473
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:05,440
Speaker 9: the police show up, body cam is going to be running.

474
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 2: Wait a minute, you have to have the defendants DNA.

475
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:09,879
Speaker 12: You have to have the.

476
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 2: Time saying to start with absolutely, And what Toby is saying,

477
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 2: I think is they gathered the DNA before Coburger became

478
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 2: a suspect.

479
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 3: And so how would they have his DNA?

480
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 2: So how could they plant his DNA at the scene

481
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 2: when he had not been identified as a suspect unless

482
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,439
Speaker 2: they're going to argue they had already identified him, that

483
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 2: that he was going to be the scapegoat, and then

484
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 2: that that night, the night of the murders, they planted it, which,

485
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 2: as Toby Wilson said, and I agree, is totally convoluted.

486
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 2: But the reality is is it worked in Simpson, It did.

487
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 3: It worked in Simpson.

488
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:56,120
Speaker 2: Johnny Cochrane, my former co anchor, May God rest his soul,

489
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,640
Speaker 2: worked his magic on a jury and it actually worked.

490
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 2: So we see the argument of planting evidence rearing its

491
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,920
Speaker 2: ugly head. And we got to look at also, Chris McDonagh,

492
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 2: director Cold Case Foundation, how many people actually went in

493
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,159
Speaker 2: to the crime scene.

494
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,119
Speaker 3: Was it planted? There? Was it planned at the lab?

495
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 2: I mean there's going to be a plethora of arguments

496
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 2: the Pandora's box of how the evidence was planted, don't

497
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:28,359
Speaker 2: you see.

498
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:32,400
Speaker 11: Yeah? Absolutely, And I think this going down this lane

499
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,440
Speaker 11: where the defense is headed. Dancy. I think we all

500
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,679
Speaker 11: agree here on this panel it's going to be quite,

501
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,920
Speaker 11: you know, a high mountain to overcome.

502
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 3: Because that's what we thought in oj Simpson.

503
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 11: Man, Yeah, I know, I agree.

504
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,360
Speaker 2: You get one nut on the jury, I mean one

505
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:52,440
Speaker 2: conspiracy theorist doctor Bethany Marshall, and it's all she wrote.

506
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:56,119
Speaker 2: It's over one bad apple on that jury might fall

507
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 2: for this cockamami. They planted the evidence theory. And don't

508
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:03,959
Speaker 2: even stir with me about that Simpson had evidence planet

509
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 2: against him. I mean, if that's true, don't you know

510
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:10,639
Speaker 2: out of all that police force that worked this case,

511
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 2: one person would do a multimillion dollar book deal right

512
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 2: now to tell the whole story.

513
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:18,199
Speaker 3: Right. Yes, that did not.

514
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:19,920
Speaker 14: Happen, Toby.

515
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:20,879
Speaker 12: People are very.

516
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:21,879
Speaker 3: Go ahead, Toby.

517
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:26,680
Speaker 14: In Simpson, it's almost in this situation in comparison to

518
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,399
Speaker 14: Apples to Orange is Simpson. The door was opened for

519
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 14: that defense by the LAPD themselves because one of the

520
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 14: lead detectives on the case at the end of the

521
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 14: at the end of the first day, instead of putting

522
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 14: the tube of blood that was collected from Oj into evidence,

523
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 14: he took it home and put it in his refrigerator

524
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 14: and went to bed.

525
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 11: He held it, He held it.

526
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 14: Leaves that leaves a question with the chain of customers.

527
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 3: I hear you, Toby, I hear you.

528
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 2: But the reality is that it doesn't matter.

529
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 14: I agree with you. It doesn't matter.

530
00:28:58,480 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 3: It doesn't matter.

531
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 2: If the one of the police makes a horrible mistake

532
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 2: like that or a bad call, they will find a

533
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 2: way to bring in This was planted Yeah, that cops

534
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 2: screwed up big time and it helped the jury find

535
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 2: a peg to hang their acquittal hat on.

536
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 3: But they're going to find a way no matter.

537
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 12: Well, I really quickly.

538
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 3: Even if one of.

539
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 2: The cops didn't make did not make any error in judgment,

540
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 2: they're still going to argue it was planned. But you

541
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 2: are right, Toby Wilson, they opened themselves up to it. Okay,

542
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 2: what were you saying, doctor Bethany.

543
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 12: Well, people are very paranoid of the police right now.

544
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 12: So we have a culture of anxiety about law enforcement,

545
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 12: anxiety about politicians, leaders and people who align against those

546
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 12: who are trying to help society become more and more entreessed.

547
00:29:53,040 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 2: You know what, it's worse than ever.

548
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Grace.

549
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 2: Guys, I'm trying to get to our other news in

550
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 2: the case as quickly as I can. We have the

551
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 2: alibi claim, we have the they plant of the DNA,

552
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 2: but they're also claiming that well, I'll let you hear

553
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 2: from the horse's mouth.

554
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 3: Take a listen our cut five two three NBC.

555
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 16: Coburger's lawyers argue for the release of materials they say

556
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 16: they need to defend the suspected killer. Coburger's lawyer also

557
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 16: went even further in the court filing, saying, quote, there

558
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 16: is no connection between mister Coburger and the victims. There

559
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 16: is no explanation for the total lack of DNA evidence

560
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 16: from the victims in mister Coberger's apartment, home, office, or vehicle.

561
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 2: Okay, Chris McDonough, you've worked over three hundred homicide saynes.

562
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 2: Their other argument is, Okay, not only did you plant

563
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 2: the DNA, there's also not enough DNA. There's not enough

564
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 2: blood on the scene. It's impossible. Well, it's not impossible.

565
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 2: But that said, they're claiming there's not enough blood.

566
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 11: There should be more blood, right, And you know, here's

567
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 11: the problem that they're going to run into, in my opinion,

568
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 11: the fact that this was a horrific scene and the

569
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 11: fact that we don't have his clothing. We have evidence

570
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 11: that he took evasive actions post incident, ie which was

571
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 11: pointed out from Chryl earlier. You know, he's there wearing gloves,

572
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 11: he's cleaning his house, et cetera, et cetera. We don't

573
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 11: know what kind of blood was on him potentially that evening,

574
00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 11: and if you know what.

575
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 3: You just brought up a really good point. Go ahead

576
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 3: and finish up place.

577
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 11: No, and that's going to be, you know, something that

578
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 11: could be argued extremely powerfully in the court.

579
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 2: You know, Cheryl, he's right, Chris mcdonne's talking about evasive actions.

580
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 3: Think about it. If days and.

581
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 2: Days and days later, he's still cleaning his car, he's

582
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 2: still throwing out trash and plastic bags zip like sandwich bags,

583
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 2: that kind of bag. He's throwing things away in his

584
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 2: neighbors trash can in the Pocono's, you know, two thousand

585
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 2: miles away from the crime. Saying what do you think

586
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 2: he did immediately after the killings? Evasive actions? Countermeasures of course.

587
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 9: And he's doing all this wearing latex gloves by the way.

588
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 9: So yeah, I mean you've got somebody that they've got

589
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 9: receipts of him purchasing, you know, certain clothing, dark clothing

590
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 9: that the witness said that she saw. It stands to

591
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 9: reason they can't find those clothing. Then his car after

592
00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 9: the murders goes aways away from his department before he

593
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 9: returns home, did he ditch all the stuff?

594
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 7: Yeah?

595
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 9: But here's the other bottom line. When you talk about

596
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 9: chain of custody, it's not just a matter of us. Initially,

597
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:13,480
Speaker 9: things on the sheet when the law enforcement officers first

598
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 9: got to that scene, their body cam was on. When

599
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 9: crime scene shows up, they're videotaping.

600
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 3: On top of that.

601
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 9: If you don't trust the police. The national media was

602
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 9: there watching people carry things out that were bagged and

603
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 9: tagged and filled. The chain of custody here is going

604
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 9: to be common.

605
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know.

606
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 2: What, You're right, they're going to have to argue that

607
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,400
Speaker 2: anything that was planted was planted. Well, they don't have to.

608
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 2: They can argue whatever they want to at the crime

609
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 2: lab because there's not a camera hovering over the scientist's

610
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 2: shoulder as they perform their tests. So I could see that.

611
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 3: As you know, easy pickings for the defense. Is it true?

612
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 2: No?

613
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 3: Are they going to argue it?

614
00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 2: Yes, So not only are they arguing that the DNA

615
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 2: was planted, that there's not enough blood, they're also challenging

616
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:12,360
Speaker 2: the methods that were used to analyze the DNA, specifically

617
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 2: on that knife sheath. Take a listener Cup five to

618
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 2: eight Crime Online.

619
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 6: The brand Coburger defense team is taking on the DNA

620
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 6: in a cord filing. Coburger's defense team goes after the

621
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 6: DNA evidence and the investigative genetic genealogy or IgG methods

622
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,799
Speaker 6: used to match it to Coburger's, suggesting it was a

623
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 6: little too perfect for the prosecution's case. In the filing,

624
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:39,279
Speaker 6: Coberger's attorneys wrote, quote, presumably the defense is expected to

625
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 6: accept at face value that the sheath had touched DNA,

626
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 6: just waiting for testing by all the FBI's myriad resources.

627
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:49,760
Speaker 3: Okay, so here's the other argument.

628
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:52,839
Speaker 2: They're really throwing the spaghetti on the wall to see

629
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 2: what sticks. They're now claiming that the genetic genealogy testing

630
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 2: that was done was too perfect. They're questioning that they

631
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:08,360
Speaker 2: get the genetic genealogists trace it the DNA on the

632
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:13,360
Speaker 2: shape back to Coburger not only through his father, but

633
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:15,840
Speaker 2: through him through a beagle swap out of his mouth.

634
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 2: Now the defense is also going to argue that's a

635
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 2: little too perfect. Okay to you, Toby Wilson, DNA expert,

636
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 2: explain in a nutshell what is the genetic genealogy IgG method.

637
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 14: It's really very complicated of the method. In fact, the

638
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 14: people that do the genetic genealogist That's.

639
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 3: Why I told you to put it in a nutshell.

640
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 14: Yeah, Well, I'm going to the people that do genetic genealogy, well,

641
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:46,839
Speaker 14: they specialize in that they go to they that's how

642
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 14: they train. They're not regular DNA experts for the most part.

643
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 14: So their job is to basically look for certain similarities

644
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:58,799
Speaker 14: that will be passed down from generation to generation and

645
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 14: connect those similarities. And in the beginning, it's like a tree.

646
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:05,800
Speaker 14: You've got this enormous tree with a bunch of branches,

647
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 14: and what they're doing is looking for the things that

648
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:11,719
Speaker 14: can cut off branches so that in the end you

649
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:14,319
Speaker 14: only have one branch left. And then when you get

650
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 14: to the bottom of it, there to the end of it,

651
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 14: there's you know, like X number of people and you

652
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:24,120
Speaker 14: start looking at their histories, you start investigating them, you

653
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 14: start getting samples of DNA, either you know, secretly or

654
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:29,840
Speaker 14: asking them for it. Usually they'll be asked for and

655
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:33,880
Speaker 14: they'll they'll contribute it, and you cancel out whoever doesn't match.

656
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:37,000
Speaker 14: So it's a very extensive process. It's not you know,

657
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:40,239
Speaker 14: something where you sit down and say, oh, yeah, look

658
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:41,200
Speaker 14: at this, he matches.

659
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 2: You're right. It's a very long procedure to build out

660
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 2: a family tree, sometimes all the way back over one

661
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:50,400
Speaker 2: hundred years and then isolated all the way down to

662
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:52,799
Speaker 2: find out who's in the area, who could it possibly be,

663
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 2: who is the right age, who could have committed this crime,

664
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:58,760
Speaker 2: and then you get their DNA out of their mouth

665
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 2: or like off a pizza crust, and then you match

666
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:05,600
Speaker 2: it up. Hey, doctor Duprey, I wanted to ask you also,

667
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 2: in addition to Chris mcdonna, what do you make of

668
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:10,440
Speaker 2: their client that there's not enough blood?

669
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 3: I mean, really, what.

670
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 13: Nancy, As you know, we really just need a spec

671
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:21,359
Speaker 13: we can actually multiply that and extrapolite.

672
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 2: No, no, no, they're saying there's not enough blood on him

673
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 2: from the crime scene. I mean, haven't you been to

674
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 2: a lot of bloody crime scenes? But you don't walk

675
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 2: out drenched in blood?

676
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:33,239
Speaker 13: Oh? Absolutely absolutely, And again we don't know what he

677
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:35,439
Speaker 13: was wearing. We don't know about protective clothing and things

678
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 13: he was doing, so that there was not much blood

679
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:40,960
Speaker 13: on him. Yeah, that's just a red herring. It means nothing.

680
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 14: He had a four week head start to get rid

681
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:46,280
Speaker 14: of evidence. The other thing is, as a blood spatter expert,

682
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 14: we know that it can be a very bloody scene

683
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:54,320
Speaker 14: and the sailing can walk out of it with little

684
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:56,840
Speaker 14: or no blood on them, because what determines how you

685
00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 14: get blood on you is the direction that the blood

686
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 14: is splat and thrown in as the activities are taking place.

687
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:07,440
Speaker 14: So it was all being thrown pushed away from the

688
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 14: dependent guys.

689
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:12,400
Speaker 2: Not only this, we are learning about bizarre changes in

690
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:16,439
Speaker 2: behavior immediately after the murders. Take a list an hour

691
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:21,920
Speaker 2: five three two from the King Road Killings podcast.

692
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 17: We had a midterm exam that a lot of people

693
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 17: thought was graded unfairly. So we as a class had

694
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:28,799
Speaker 17: like a day where we went in and we were

695
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 17: all essentially allowed to just like debate him about our

696
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 17: grades and try and like earn points back. But you know,

697
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:37,000
Speaker 17: was a thing where he argued back, and so we

698
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 17: were sort of in this weird like debate for the

699
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:41,239
Speaker 17: whole class, fifty of us against one of him, and

700
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 17: he was having to field all these questions. But Brian

701
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:46,880
Speaker 17: seemed super comfortable, and honestly, none of us were like

702
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:48,840
Speaker 17: super comfortable. Was a weird vibe that was like a

703
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:51,040
Speaker 17: turning point. I think for us. We felt like when

704
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 17: we did that, our grades got better.

705
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 3: Concidentally, at the time of the murders and more. In

706
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:56,920
Speaker 3: five twenty.

707
00:38:56,680 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 18: ABC recent students of his at Washington State University speaking

708
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:04,239
Speaker 18: out one thing. His appearance changed around the time the

709
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:05,440
Speaker 18: murders took place.

710
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:08,359
Speaker 17: He looked a little bit more disheveled, if he had

711
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:10,400
Speaker 17: like some stubble coming on, and his hair was a

712
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 17: little you know, messed up or whatever. I remember seeing

713
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 17: him and thinking like, oh man, you know, finals must

714
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:15,839
Speaker 17: be really getting back.

715
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:19,320
Speaker 18: Twenty eight year old Coburger remained a teacher's assistant working

716
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 18: towards his criminology PhD until the end of the semester.

717
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 2: Not only that, we understand Rachel Schilkey that he has

718
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:30,200
Speaker 2: quote found religion behind bars. You know, it's not often

719
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:32,759
Speaker 2: that you say a spree killer suddenly find the light.

720
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 3: But what do you know about that?

721
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 10: Well, apparently he attends mass every Sunday with a local

722
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 10: pastor and they say he's remained a model prisoner while

723
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,280
Speaker 10: in jail. Soku, he's trying to put up a look

724
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 10: that he is, you know, finding the right path or

725
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:48,640
Speaker 10: maybe he's completely innocent in this.

726
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:51,440
Speaker 9: What about that CHERYLN collell in prison? That's straight out

727
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:53,839
Speaker 9: of the handbook. So what that does gets he out

728
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 9: of his sale. He hopefully believes that he's going to

729
00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:00,360
Speaker 9: be surrounded by people that are good Christians, people that

730
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:03,120
Speaker 9: won't harm him. It's a quasi way for him to

731
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:04,120
Speaker 9: get some free protection.

732
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:06,760
Speaker 3: Okay, I just stop. I'm going to try to boil

733
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:07,280
Speaker 3: this down.

734
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:11,759
Speaker 2: When I first started conducting play negotiations, I had one

735
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 2: judge that would bring me the prosecutor, the defense attorney,

736
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:15,839
Speaker 2: and the defendant in the same room.

737
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:17,479
Speaker 3: Very small room, by the way.

738
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 2: One time, one defendant had made a woven yarn cross,

739
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 2: and I commented, did you make that cross?

740
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 3: Behind bars?

741
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 2: And the next week on the plain arrayment calendar, one

742
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:37,400
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty inmates, about forty of them had woven

743
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:41,600
Speaker 2: crosses this big around their necks because they knew I

744
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:42,280
Speaker 2: was a Christian.

745
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 3: You know what.

746
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:46,719
Speaker 2: I hope he's found the Lord because he's going to

747
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:49,760
Speaker 2: need strength to get through his murder trial.

748
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 3: We wait as justice unfolds. Get by friend,