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Speaker 1: Yeah, didn't you tell me there was a story where

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Speaker 1: someone came up to you and said, hey, are you

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Speaker 1: Jackie from Heavyweight? And you said, no, is that true?

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Speaker 2: Yes, I've denied it.

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Speaker 3: I think it's true.

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Speaker 1: Why why would you deny it? If people I never

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Speaker 1: I try not to lie in my life.

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Speaker 4: There's nothing you lie about.

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Speaker 1: If I don't have to.

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Speaker 2: In which situations would you lie?

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Speaker 5: Hmm?

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Speaker 1: I guess when you make your famous couscous and cutlets

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Speaker 1: and you say, Johnny, do you like it? And I say, mm, yes,

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Speaker 1: very much? So I love it. I'm so delicious. Oh

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Speaker 1: it's so good. Oh my goodness.

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Speaker 5: Wow.

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Speaker 1: Oh I'm not going to wash my mouth for a week.

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Speaker 1: Sound familiar Jackie Cohen from Gimblet Media. I'm Jonathan Goldstein

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Speaker 1: and this is Heavyweight Today's episode Dan right after the break.

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Speaker 3: Hey Dan, Hey, Jonathan, how are you?

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Speaker 1: Dan is a serious journalist, like national security correspondent. Serious.

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Speaker 3: Sorry, I'm just trying to turn off my phone so

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Speaker 3: it doesn't be.

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Speaker 1: Turning off your phone during an interview serious journalism. Actually

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Speaker 1: I should do the same thing. Dan is a friend

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Speaker 1: whom I've known for years, but conversation can still sometimes

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Speaker 1: feel like a game of chess. You're looking well, thank

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Speaker 1: you arrested. Likewise, good of you to say check and mate.

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Speaker 1: Given what a serious journalist Dan is, I'm surprised he's

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Speaker 1: come to me for help. But then his crisis is

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Speaker 1: not one of national security. His is a crisis of

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Speaker 1: the heart, and that is an area in which my

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Speaker 1: journalism excels. Dan's story all begins in the summer of

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Speaker 1: two thousand and three, the night he and his wife, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: first met.

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Speaker 3: At a dinner party hosted by this American diplomat in Jerusalem,

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Speaker 3: and Nancy got to the dinner late because she was

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Speaker 3: out on a date that night.

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Speaker 4: A terrible date. I went to see X Men two,

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Speaker 4: which was unfortunate all the way around.

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Speaker 1: This is Nancy, also a friend whom I've known for years,

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Speaker 1: and also a serious journalist for the podcast serial in

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Speaker 1: This American Life.

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Speaker 4: And I wasn't even going to go to this party

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Speaker 4: and just thought, oh, for Christ's sake, why am I

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Speaker 4: going to this?

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Speaker 1: But then she met Dan.

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Speaker 3: He was quiet.

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Speaker 4: I noticed that he was just kind of watching and

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Speaker 4: not being rambunctious. You know, there's a lot of sort

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Speaker 4: of false hilarity at parties and that was not something

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Speaker 4: he was engaging in.

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Speaker 1: A week later, Dan and Nancy went out on a

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Speaker 1: date at an Italian restaurant in downtown Jerusalem.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's July, it was warm. She was wearing

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Speaker 3: a tak top. I remember I ordered ravioli and a

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Speaker 3: beer and she ordered a burger and a whiskey.

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Speaker 4: Because I don't know, that's the kind of hard drinking,

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Speaker 4: hard eating gal I was.

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Speaker 1: Nancy says she'd been on a lot of first dates

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Speaker 1: and rarely got her hopes up. She was wary anticipating

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Speaker 1: the moment, say, when Dan would ask her to see

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Speaker 1: X Men three. Still, something about Dan drew her in.

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Speaker 4: I remember him saying very early on that he was

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Speaker 4: separated and that he had two kids, and I could

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Speaker 4: see that he was kind of bracing for that to

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Speaker 4: be a deal breaker for me, and I didn't feel

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Speaker 4: that way at all. On the contrary, I felt interested

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Speaker 4: and excited and yeah, you're a whole person with a

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Speaker 4: whole person's complications. It was nice, it was fun, but

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Speaker 4: then something strange happened. Do you want to jump in with.

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Speaker 3: A question.

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Speaker 1: Serious journalism. This must be frustrating for you. You must feel

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Speaker 1: like I could do both sides of this. What do

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Speaker 1: I need this tarp before? But yes, indeed, like what happened.

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Speaker 3: We're still just in the stage where we're getting the

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Speaker 3: main facts. Where are you from? What are you doing

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Speaker 3: here so far from home? And a woman who was

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Speaker 3: sitting with her husband at the table right next to us,

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Speaker 3: leaned in towards us and said, hey, you know, excuse me,

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Speaker 3: sorry for interrupting, but I think I know your father. Dan.

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Speaker 1: It chaired with Nancy that his dad lived in California

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Speaker 1: and helped invent the breakfast cereal cap'n Crunch. Hearing these details,

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Speaker 1: the woman realized the connection.

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Speaker 4: She said, that's so funny. He's our friend. We live

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Speaker 4: next to him.

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Speaker 3: He throws these great parties. He and his wife are

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Speaker 3: very generous philanthropists in the community.

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Speaker 4: You know, I can't believe it, of all the people

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Speaker 4: to be next to. And it'll be so great when

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Speaker 4: we tell him we ran into you. And they went

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Speaker 4: back to their dinner. We went back to ours, and

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Speaker 4: Dan looked sort of startled.

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Speaker 1: But it wasn't just the surprise of being recognized by

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Speaker 1: a stranger seventy five hundred miles from home.

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Speaker 3: It was also surprising for another reason, which is that

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Speaker 3: I don't know my father. I have not had contact

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Speaker 3: with my father since I was very young.

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Speaker 4: And Dan was very quiet and he said, I actually

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Speaker 4: don't know my father at all. It was basically like

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Speaker 4: our date was kind of split into two parts, and

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Speaker 4: the first part happened before that moment with a couple

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Speaker 4: next to us, and the second part happened afterward. It

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Speaker 4: just turned into a completely different conversation that was like,

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Speaker 4: here's the.

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Speaker 1: Deal, here was the deal, leaning in so that the

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Speaker 1: couple wouldn't hear. Dan explained that his parents split up

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Speaker 1: when he was five. It was a very acrimonious divorce,

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Speaker 1: and afterwards his father essentially disappeared from his and his

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Speaker 1: sister's life. Their mother struggled to raise the two kids

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Speaker 1: on her own. In life with Dan's mother wasn't easy.

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Speaker 1: She was a Holocaust survivor, and Dan says she carried

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Speaker 1: the trauma of those years for the rest of her life.

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Speaker 4: And because he told that whole story, I then ended

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Speaker 4: up telling the whole complicated story of my own, my

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Speaker 4: own parents' divorce.

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Speaker 3: You know, suddenly we were talking about things that were real.

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Speaker 3: It created this intimacy that, you know, so you can

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Speaker 3: go on five days and not get to that.

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Speaker 1: Back at the neighboring table, the couple paid the check

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Speaker 1: and got up to leave, but before they did, the

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Speaker 1: woman came over once more.

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Speaker 3: And said, Hey, do you mind if I take a

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Speaker 3: photo of you two?

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Speaker 4: This will be so funny. Let's take a picture of

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Speaker 4: you and we'll send it to your father.

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Speaker 3: And Nancy and I kind of looked at each other.

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Speaker 3: It was this look of Okay, this is weird, but.

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Speaker 4: Why not, and we kind of leaned.

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Speaker 3: In, I think, and maybe even I put my arm

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Speaker 3: around Nancy and.

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Speaker 4: They took this picture.

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Speaker 1: Dan and Nancy posed frozen smiles, hiding their real smiles

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Speaker 1: at the fact that this woman adjusting her camera knew

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Speaker 1: nothing of what they knew.

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Speaker 4: It was pretty funny. I think at some point they

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Speaker 4: even said, like, we didn't even know he had a son,

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Speaker 4: and I was like, oh, lady, you have no idea.

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Speaker 4: It was like we had an experience together right right,

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Speaker 4: You know, we had this inside joke already.

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Speaker 1: After the photo, things moved quickly.

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Speaker 3: I think I gave Nancy the key to my apartment

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Speaker 3: within two weeks of that date.

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Speaker 4: The photo was a chance, you know, it gave us

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Speaker 4: a chance to both kind of take the first big

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Speaker 4: leap of our relationship.

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Speaker 1: Would you say that the woman sitting beside you was

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Speaker 1: sort of like a cherub, but rather than carrying a

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Speaker 1: bow and arrow, she was holding a camera. Would you

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Speaker 1: say that? Would you say that, Nancy?

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Speaker 4: I wouldn't say that, but I would support your saying.

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Speaker 1: That, And with Nancy's full support behind me, I will

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Speaker 1: say that because Dan and Nancy have now been together

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Speaker 1: for nineteen years.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you know Nancy, so you know how lovely

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Speaker 3: she is and funny and warm and all that was

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Speaker 3: on display right away that evening, and I fell in

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Speaker 3: love with her at that dinner.

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Speaker 1: And that first spark was captured in the photo. Because

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Speaker 1: of crashed hard drives, Dan and Nancy have lost the

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Speaker 1: photos from the beginning of their relationship. So while those

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Speaker 1: photos have certainly gone, the first photo, the most important photo,

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Speaker 1: might not be, and so Dan has come to me

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Speaker 1: to find it. But here's the catch. If the woman

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Speaker 1: with the camera kept her promise, then the photo is

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Speaker 1: in the hands of Dan's father, and I am.

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Speaker 3: Not particularly interested in trying to reach out to my

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Speaker 3: father directly or indirectly. In other words, This is what

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Speaker 3: might make it more tricky if he has the photo.

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Speaker 3: I don't want to go that road.

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Speaker 1: It's been about fifty years since Dan's father walked out

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Speaker 1: on the family. Dan isn't looking to make contact now.

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Speaker 1: But I can't help thinking that as much as Dan

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Speaker 1: wants a photo, some part of him must also be

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Speaker 1: wanting something more from his dad. The strange symmetry is

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Speaker 1: hard to ignore. The thing Dan wants most is in

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Speaker 1: the hands of the person he wants to talk to least.

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Speaker 1: But Dan is adamant.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the mission here is not let's reach out to

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Speaker 3: him and get to know him. I really just want

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Speaker 3: the photo.

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Speaker 1: Are you saying sometimes a photo is just a photo exactly?

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think it's just a photograph.

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Speaker 4: No, But I don't think I can know everything that

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Speaker 4: it means to him necessarily. I think it's hard to

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Speaker 4: want anything from a parent who has been so thoroughly absent.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so thoroughly.

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Speaker 1: Derelict. Does he remember anything about his father?

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Speaker 4: I'm hesitating. You know, this is small, but it's personal.

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Speaker 1: It's a sad memory.

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Speaker 4: I mean to me, it's sad, Okay, to me, it's sad.

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Speaker 4: He told me he remembered his father rubbing his back.

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Speaker 4: I rub his back a lot.

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Speaker 1: With Dan's father in the no fly zone. It leaves

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Speaker 1: only one person who might have a copy of the photo,

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Speaker 1: the woman with the camera. Do you remember what she

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Speaker 1: looked like?

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Speaker 3: I think she had curly brown hair, and I can

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Speaker 3: get Nancy's take on this as.

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Speaker 4: Well, dark hair like not really a beehive, but sort

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Speaker 4: of up and kind of pin curlsy or something.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I think maybe she said something about the Jewish community,

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Speaker 3: so I wouldn't be surprised if they're active in the

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Speaker 3: Jewish community there.

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Speaker 1: I look at the notes I've been taking, an older

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Speaker 1: possibly Jewish woman from California who, when traveling to Israel

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Speaker 1: in two thousand and three, maybe wore her hair in

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Speaker 1: a beehive. I mean, this is really this isn't really

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Speaker 1: not a lot, you know.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's going to be hard finding her as a

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Speaker 3: big obstacle. And then eighteen years later, does she have

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Speaker 3: this photo lying around?

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Speaker 1: I begin my search for the woman with the camera

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Speaker 1: where it all began. Buck Facacia Bar, the restaurant in

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Speaker 1: Jerusalem where Dan and Nancy had their first date. Wielding

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Speaker 1: what's left of my bar Mitzvalessen language skills. My plan

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Speaker 1: is to endear myself to the Fakacia bar staff uh shalom.

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Speaker 1: Is there a manager maybe on second Slussia? Hello shalom? Hello,

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Speaker 1: how could I have you? I tell the manager about

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Speaker 1: my two friends who had their first date at his restaurant, yes,

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Speaker 1: eighteen years ago. Oh nice, Yeah, And encouraged by his interest,

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Speaker 1: I explained the whole story, how I'm trying to find

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Speaker 1: the woman with a camera, and how maybe he has

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Speaker 1: her credit card receipt on file. Luckily, Dan and Nancy

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Speaker 1: remember the exact day of their date, July first, two

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Speaker 1: thousand and three. So yeah, you could go back to

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Speaker 1: the computer just type in two thousand and three.

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Speaker 3: Oh man, we're not so much technology, you know.

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Speaker 1: It's no shating like seven eight computer, different computers, you know,

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Speaker 1: so nothing you could do in other words, no nothing nothing, Okay,

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Speaker 1: thank you for taking the time to your shalom.

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Speaker 3: Hello.

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Speaker 1: So I try something else. Since the woman was a

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Speaker 1: neighbor of Dan's father, I look up his address and

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Speaker 1: contact the county assessor's office. I request historical records of

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Speaker 1: property owners in his town from two thousand and three.

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Speaker 1: But it turns out that like the catchy bar. They

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Speaker 1: aren't very technology and don't keep data dating back that far.

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Speaker 1: Unable to find a list of past neighbors, I decide

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Speaker 1: to try calling present ones. Maybe the woman with the

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Speaker 1: camera is still living in the same neighborhood as she

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Speaker 1: was in two thousand and three, or at the very least,

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Speaker 1: maybe someone who knows her does. My producer Stevie and

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Speaker 1: I turned to the white pages and start phoning Hello. Hello,

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Speaker 1: my name is Jonathan Goldstein. The reason I'm phoning is

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Speaker 1: I do a pot. Are you familiar with podcasts?

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Speaker 2: No?

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Speaker 4: I don't have time for anything.

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Speaker 5: I just not enough to thank you.

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Speaker 1: I'll get to the point, ma'am. Hello. The neighbors rarely

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Speaker 1: let me get to the point, and even when they do,

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Speaker 1: I mostly met with one of two reactions pity.

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Speaker 3: Good look.

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Speaker 1: Or non pity.

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Speaker 5: I haven't photographed anybody.

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Speaker 2: I've been in the little bar.

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Speaker 6: I know nothing about what you're talking about, so you're

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Speaker 6: pointless coming here and talking to mean thank you?

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Speaker 2: Bye?

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Speaker 5: All right?

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Speaker 1: Well, did you say I've never been to a noodle bar?

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Speaker 6: Uh huh?

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Speaker 1: All right, we can cross that one off the list.

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Speaker 1: After dozens of calls to random strangers, I begin to

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Speaker 1: lose hope. But since Dan thought the woman with the

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Speaker 1: camera might have known as father through the Jewish community,

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Speaker 1: I phone every synagogue within an hour's drive of Dan's

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Speaker 1: father's neighborhood. I get the rabbis to include a call

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Speaker 1: out and their e newsletters. It doesn't yield a thing.

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Speaker 1: With the futility of finding a nameless woman with an

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Speaker 1: indeterminate address, I reach back out to Dan. It seems

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Speaker 1: as though it might be impossible without you know, in

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Speaker 1: some way it kind of connecting to your father.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Nancy and I talked a bit about it.

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Speaker 1: Perhaps anticipating the shortcomings of my journalisming, Nancy devised a strategy.

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Speaker 1: Dan's fear is that his dad will think this is

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Speaker 1: an attempt to reconcile, to reconnect.

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Speaker 4: And so what I said was Jonathan could just call

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Speaker 4: him and say no, no, no, no no no, I'm

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Speaker 4: just here for the photo. If you could just give

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Speaker 4: us the photo, that's all I want.

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Speaker 1: Dan is comfortable with this approach, but before giving me

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Speaker 1: the green light, he says, there's one last person I

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Speaker 1: need to call.

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Speaker 2: I mean, we share a lot and we probably did

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Speaker 2: actually raise one another.

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Speaker 1: This is Abby, Dan's older sister. Given the difficulty of

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Speaker 1: their childhood, they've always sort of been a team of two,

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Speaker 1: so Dan wants to make sure she's okay with my

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Speaker 1: contacting their father. Abby tells me that over the years,

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Speaker 1: she and Dan have reached out to their father a

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Speaker 1: number of times, almost always to no response. The last

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Speaker 1: time for Dan was twenty years ago, when he was

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Speaker 1: in his mid thirties. For Abby, it was March of

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Speaker 1: last year. Dan and Abbey's mother had just died, and

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Speaker 1: Abby was going through her mom's belongings when she found

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Speaker 1: some photos of her parents taken early in their relationship,

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Speaker 1: and they were happy pictures.

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Speaker 2: They were pictures of love and you know, and passion.

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Speaker 2: And so I wrote to him and I said, I've

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Speaker 2: been going through these pictures and I seen lots of

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Speaker 2: beautiful pictures of you and my mom, and I just

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Speaker 2: wanted you to know that my mom has passed and

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Speaker 2: it looks like there were times that were also beautiful.

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Speaker 2: And then I ended by saying I have a beautiful family,

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Speaker 2: and I'm very lucky, and Danny is lucky.

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Speaker 1: Abby sent the letter not expecting to hear back, but

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Speaker 1: about two weeks later, her father answered, and he said.

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Speaker 2: Something to the fact of we weren't happy, and he

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Speaker 2: said family is very important. But he didn't you know,

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Speaker 2: he didn't say anything about my children, or he didn't

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Speaker 2: say anything about even my loss. I mean, he didn't

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Speaker 2: have the you know, the I guess the depths, the

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Speaker 2: emotional depths.

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Speaker 1: Which is why she doesn't see the point in asking

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Speaker 1: her father for help, even though we're only asking for

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Speaker 1: the kind of small effort you'd expect anyone to make.

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Speaker 2: If I have a photo, you'll call me up and

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Speaker 2: you'll say, Abby, do you have the photo? And I'll say,

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Speaker 2: oh my god, this is so difficult. But ultimately I'll

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Speaker 2: look for it and then he will sense that I

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Speaker 2: care enough to look. But we're not going to get

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Speaker 2: that from her father. He doesn't care enough.

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Speaker 1: And no matter how old you are or what you

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Speaker 1: might say to the contrary, that hurts.

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Speaker 2: If you look at us, you think, oh, those two

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Speaker 2: are just regular people. But I don't think we are

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Speaker 2: a regular I think deep inside, we're still researching and

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Speaker 2: we're trying to understand, like why why would a parent

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Speaker 2: not want contact with us? And nobody's going to give

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Speaker 2: us that answer. So it's really.

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Speaker 1: Painful in the end, even though Abby is skeptical her

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Speaker 1: father will help. She gives me your blessing to try.

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Speaker 6: I mean, if that's.

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Speaker 2: What Danny feels like is the right thing to do,

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Speaker 2: then I would support that. I want that photo. I

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Speaker 2: want that photo for Danny, but not at the price

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Speaker 2: of him being hurt. I don't think the photo is

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Speaker 2: worth not.

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Speaker 1: Dan's father is my last chance to score the photo,

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Speaker 1: and I don't want to blow it, which is why

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Speaker 1: I've been putting off the call. I don't want him

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Speaker 1: to hang up on me, and from what Abby told me,

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Speaker 1: it seems like there's a definite chance he might. But

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Speaker 1: on a Monday afternoon, a few days after speaking with Abby,

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00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,560
Speaker 1: I pick up the phone. Dan's father is in his

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Speaker 1: late eighties, but he still works. When I phone his office,

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00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:53,720
Speaker 1: a friendly woman tells me he's hard of hearing, and

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Speaker 1: then she gives me a cell phone number. After three rings,

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Speaker 1: Dan's father picks up.

352
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Speaker 3: Hello.

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Speaker 1: He says, Hello, I say loudly, but not too loudly.

354
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Speaker 1: I hope it's okay that I'm calling you on your

355
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Speaker 1: cell phone. Well, I don't know what you're calling about,

356
00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:15,320
Speaker 1: he says. For the next two minutes, they nervously explain

357
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:19,200
Speaker 1: about Ficacia bar about how twenty years ago his neighbor

358
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Speaker 1: took a photograph of his son, and how I'm now

359
00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:25,520
Speaker 1: looking for that photograph. When I'm done, I'm met by

360
00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,160
Speaker 1: a silence that feels long enough to make me wonder

361
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Speaker 1: whether he'd hung up somewhere around my explanation of what

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00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:35,800
Speaker 1: a podcast is. Finally, he says, so you're asking me

363
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:41,080
Speaker 1: if I have this photograph. Yes, yes, I say, Dan's

364
00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,679
Speaker 1: father lets loose a laugh, not a mean laugh, like

365
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:47,199
Speaker 1: and you think I'm going to help you with this.

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00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:52,359
Speaker 1: It's free and amused, sounding a hearty and vigorous laugh.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure what to make of it. Dan's father

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00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:01,600
Speaker 1: says he has no memory of any photo, but he

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00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:04,679
Speaker 1: does remember the incident, being told by his neighbor that

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00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,920
Speaker 1: she'd seen Dan. He tells me she since moved away

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Speaker 1: and he doesn't remember her name, but that he'll look

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Speaker 1: for it try and reach me tomorrow. He says. When

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Speaker 1: I pick up the phone to call Dan's dad a

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00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,280
Speaker 1: second time, I'm pretty sure I'll get blown off, that

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00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:23,760
Speaker 1: he'll screen my call or maybe tell me sorry I

376
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:27,600
Speaker 1: couldn't find her. But just as he'd promised, Dan's father

377
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:31,880
Speaker 1: looked for his old neighbor's name and found it. I'll

378
00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:34,280
Speaker 1: tell you her name, he says. But that's all I know.

379
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,680
Speaker 1: I haven't spoken with her, so if you can find her,

380
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:41,040
Speaker 1: you can ask her directly. I ask him if he

381
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Speaker 1: remembers anything more about the conversation years ago when she

382
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,639
Speaker 1: told him she'd seen Dan. Was he surprised, you know?

383
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Speaker 1: He says, I was honest with you. I got you

384
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Speaker 1: the name of the person. That's all I can do.

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Speaker 1: All right, Yes, yes, I say, sensing. Well, thank you

386
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:09,960
Speaker 1: so much, and have a good day you too, he says. Bye.

387
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,040
Speaker 1: When I get off the phone with Dan's dad, I

388
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:15,040
Speaker 1: look at my notes where I've written down the name

389
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Speaker 1: of the woman with the camera, and that name is Deborah.

390
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,160
Speaker 1: Once I have Deborah's name, it's not hard to find her.

391
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:29,359
Speaker 1: She still lives in California. At first phone debraah a

392
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Speaker 1: few days ago. She was on her way out and

393
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,200
Speaker 1: asked if I could call her back on Thursday.

394
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Speaker 5: Very nice timing.

395
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:40,240
Speaker 1: Oh good good, I'm glad I caught you. It turns out,

396
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:43,480
Speaker 1: Deborah remembers clearly the night she and her late husband

397
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Speaker 1: ate at Facacia Bar, seated next to Dan and.

398
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Speaker 5: Nancy, I'm a terrible eavesdropper. I just can't help it

399
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:54,800
Speaker 5: because I love people's stories. Yeah, and I said to

400
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:58,600
Speaker 5: my husband, I'm betting first date. And he said something

401
00:24:58,640 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 5: to me like stop it.

402
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 1: But Deborah couldn't stop it. She kept listening for what

403
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:04,360
Speaker 1: Dan would say.

404
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 3: Next.

405
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,359
Speaker 5: He said, my father invented the flavor for Captain Crunch.

406
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:14,600
Speaker 5: Huh so much. Okay, there can't be two of those

407
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:18,920
Speaker 5: people in the world. You know. My recollection is that

408
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,159
Speaker 5: we printed a copy of the picture and took it

409
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:22,960
Speaker 5: to give his.

410
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:28,639
Speaker 1: Father, despite Dan's father not remembering any photograph. In Debra's telling,

411
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 1: she did show it to him.

412
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:35,320
Speaker 5: But my heart memory is that he didn't really want it,

413
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 5: which was, you know, made me really sad.

414
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,199
Speaker 1: It turns out Debra snapped the photo knowing more than

415
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:46,200
Speaker 1: Dan and Nancy imagined. She knew Dan's father had remarried,

416
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:48,800
Speaker 1: and she knew he was estranged from his old family,

417
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 1: but a photo of his son seemed like something that

418
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:55,200
Speaker 1: might warm him. Deborah was a second wife and had

419
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,440
Speaker 1: seen her fair share of difficult family dynamics.

420
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,400
Speaker 5: And my husband went through periods of being estranged from

421
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:06,639
Speaker 5: his son, and one time someone came up to us

422
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,160
Speaker 5: in a restaurant and said, oh, you must be Jeffrey's father,

423
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 5: and Russell was tickled. You know, he's still his son,

424
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 5: so you know, I don't know. What we hoped was

425
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 5: the charming story of a sweet coincidence received a very

426
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 5: still reception, if you know what I mean, Yeah, these

427
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 5: stories of estrangement. I think one of the hardest things.

428
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 5: One of the hardest things is that we think we're alone.

429
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 1: For years, Deborah worked at a healing center, helping residents

430
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,719
Speaker 1: there as they approached end of life. One day at

431
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 1: a volunteers meeting, someone told the story of an elderly

432
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 1: estrangement from their children.

433
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 5: And pretty much everyone around the table had some variation

434
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,880
Speaker 5: of estrangement from someone that they thought they'd been very

435
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 5: close to who was suddenly gone from their lives, and

436
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 5: it was just very quite. The word is liberating to

437
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,639
Speaker 5: know that this is a human condition that we don't

438
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 5: talk about much. There are some relationships that you just

439
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:36,959
Speaker 5: kind of, I don't know, on a cellular level, that

440
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 5: you that you long for even if you know you

441
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 5: can't have them. So when you talk to Dan again,

442
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 5: tell me it's not alone.

443
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 1: Deborah says that as requested, She did a search for

444
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 1: the photo and.

445
00:27:58,040 --> 00:27:58,680
Speaker 3: I found it.

446
00:27:58,800 --> 00:27:59,480
Speaker 5: I found it.

447
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 1: You believe it.

448
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:02,160
Speaker 5: I found it.

449
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:05,920
Speaker 1: Deborah had cared enough to look.

450
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 5: Hi.

451
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,399
Speaker 3: Hi, Hello. So the.

452
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:23,919
Speaker 1: Long and short of it is, we found the photo.

453
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:26,879
Speaker 1: Get the fuck out?

454
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 3: Wow? What come on?

455
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 1: Yeah? We found it?

456
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 3: Oh my god.

457
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 4: Okay, I did not expect you to say that at all.

458
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I didn't think. I didn't think we would.

459
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 3: Frankly, how the fuck did you do this? How did

460
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 3: you pull it off?

461
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 1: I tell Dan and Nancy about Deborah, who for almost

462
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 1: twenty years held onto the photograph of an estranged son

463
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 1: of an old neighbor. Deborah says she kept it because

464
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 1: she was touched that Dan, who must have held such

465
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 1: anger towards this father, had still been so gracious with her.

466
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 4: So that that changes my sense of what was happening,

467
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 4: because I thought I remembered her having said I didn't

468
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 4: know he had a son, that she really had no idea.

469
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 1: But Deborah did have an idea. So while running into

470
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 1: Deborah was pure luck, her snapping of the photograph hadn't been.

471
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 1: It was well intentioned.

472
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 3: God bless this lady.

473
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 5: Man.

474
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 4: I know, Yeah, I fe feel very warm towards Deborah.

475
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 1: Of course, Dan wants to know how I found Deborah

476
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 1: in the first place. I ended up calling your father

477
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 1: to ask, which brings me to his father, who answered

478
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 1: my call.

479
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 3: I find it very surprising. I mean, he has never

480
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 3: been responsive to communications with my sister and I, so yeah,

481
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 3: I'm surprised.

482
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 1: I will also say that I talked to to Abby

483
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 1: just a few days ago and I told her about

484
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:03,800
Speaker 1: the whole thing.

485
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 6: I mean, I'm so surprised. I'm so surprised that he

486
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 6: went to look for the name. I didn't think it

487
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 6: was possible. I thought he wouldn't bother Maybe for just

488
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 6: a brief moment, he recognized a need.

489
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, like you see though at the

490
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 1: same time, like it's small.

491
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:37,239
Speaker 6: It's significant. Hmmm, it means something I don't know, in

492
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 6: a Hollywood dream movie. He did it for Danny and

493
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 6: he thought about it and he imagined him. But I'm

494
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 6: not so sure this is a Hollywood moment. Yeah, but

495
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 6: maybe he did see Danny in this.

496
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 1: I don't know what you make of that.

497
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 4: That's his I'm not buying it face.

498
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know. Maybe I don't. She's

499
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:11,959
Speaker 3: she might be a little more charitable about it.

500
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, It's been decades of radio silence from Dan's father,

501
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 1: and in that time Dan has come to wonder less

502
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 1: about how someone could do that to a son and

503
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 1: more about how someone could do that to himself.

504
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 3: I feel intuitively that this must plague my father. I

505
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 3: kind of think that to turn away from, you know,

506
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 3: a five year old and a seven year old and

507
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 3: just cut yourself off requires really sort of emptying out

508
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 3: your heart. And it is just baffling to me that

509
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 3: still at this age, he wouldn't figure out how to

510
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,720
Speaker 3: do something about it for his own good so that

511
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 3: he doesn't take this with him.

512
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:00,479
Speaker 1: Dan says that when he split up with his first wife,

513
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 1: his son was the same age as he was when

514
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 1: his parents divorced. Dan wanted to do things differently.

515
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 3: I was just very conscious of doing everything we needed

516
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:12,640
Speaker 3: to do to be a presence in his life, for

517
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 3: both his mom and for me to be always a

518
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 3: presence in his life. And we did crazy, crazy things.

519
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 1: Crazy things like multiple transatlantic moves from Israel to the

520
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 1: US and back, all five of them, Dan, his ex wife,

521
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 1: his two kids, and Nancy. Things like living in neighboring

522
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 1: towns as the kids grew up celebrating Thanksgiving as one

523
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 1: big family. It wasn't always easy.

524
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 3: But in every way I can explain or think of,

525
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 3: it has made a difference. And it was very conscious

526
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 3: and very much a kind of a reaction to the

527
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 3: way that he went about things. They went about things,

528
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 3: And just.

529
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 4: To say, there were a lot of things I loved,

530
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,360
Speaker 4: and I knew that I loved about Danny, but his

531
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 4: relationship with his children was at the center of it.

532
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 4: And his ex wife Tommy, we're all kind of in

533
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 4: a big, big stew together. We have been the whole time.

534
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 4: And she's been game for the weirdness too.

535
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 3: Shout out to my ex she's pretty great.

536
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 1: They don't normally do shout out. It's not that kind

537
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 1: of radio show, but serious journalism. Do you want to

538
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 1: see the photo?

539
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 3: Yes, yes I would, Jonathan, I'd like to see the photo.

540
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 1: Before our conversation. I had it framed and wrapped.

541
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 3: Oh my god, Oh Jesus, my god, this is so

542
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 3: much better than I thought even, Oh my god.

543
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 5: Well.

544
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 1: In the photo, Dan and Nancy are sitting next to

545
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 1: each other at a round wooden table. Dan's body is

546
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 1: angled towards Nancy, Nancy smiling and leaning towards Dan.

547
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 3: Look at you, Jesus Christ. Nancy. Oh my god, man, wow,

548
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:16,240
Speaker 3: I totally remembered that tank top. It's smile.

549
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 1: Dan is often so serious, but in the photo he's

550
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 1: smiling so wide you can see all his teeth. He

551
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:25,360
Speaker 1: looks unencumbered at ease.

552
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:28,760
Speaker 3: Yeah. No, it's it's sort of remarkably not awkward.

553
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:31,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, we just look very relaxed.

554
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:32,520
Speaker 3: We look awesome.

555
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 1: I guess sometimes a photo is just a photo, or

556
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 1: in this case, a really great photo.

557
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, Nancy, I oh my god, you just you look

558
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:49,319
Speaker 3: fucking adorable. You marry me all over I would marry

559
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 3: you all over again.

560
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 1: Dan's daughter is getting married this summer in Israel, and

561
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 1: Dan and Nancy will be there, along with Dan's son,

562
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 1: his ex wife Tommy. Shout out to his ex wife Tommy,

563
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:15,960
Speaker 1: and his sister Abby two, who just recently became a grandmother.

564
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 1: Dan says whenever he visits there's always a lot of

565
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:23,840
Speaker 1: requests for stuff from America, but along with the Sephora

566
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 1: makeup and Adida sneakers, he'll be bringing the photo to

567
00:35:28,600 --> 00:36:09,920
Speaker 1: share with his whole family. Now that the Fernituers returned.

568
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:17,360
Speaker 4: To its goodwill home, now that the last month's rant

569
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:18,799
Speaker 4: is scheming with.

570
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,359
Speaker 1: The damnage, take this moment.

571
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 5: To do so, if we meant it, if we.

572
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 1: Talk but felt around for far too from pas it accidentally.

573
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:45,400
Speaker 1: This episode of Heavyweight was produced by supervising producer Stevie

574
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 1: Lane and me Jonathan Goldstein, along with Moheiney mcgauker. Our

575
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:53,920
Speaker 1: senior producer is Khalila Holt. Production help from Damiano Marquetti.

576
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 1: Special thanks to Emily Condon, Alex Bloomberg, Caitlin Kenny, Phoebe Flanagan,

577
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 1: and Jackie Cohen. Nancy Updike, who you heard in this episode,

578
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,800
Speaker 1: is coming out with a new series called We Were Three,

579
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:10,399
Speaker 1: which drops on October thirteenth from Serial Productions. Bobby Lord

580
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:14,240
Speaker 1: mixed the episode with original music by Christine Fellows, John K. Sampson,

581
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 1: Michael Hurst, and Bobby Lord. Additional music credits can be

582
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 1: found on our website, Gimbletmedia dot com slash Heavyweight. Our

583
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 1: theme song is by The Weaker Thans courtesy of Epitaph Records.

584
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 1: Follow us on Twitter at Heavyweight or email us at

585
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 1: Heavyweight at gimletmedia dot com. We'll be back with a

586
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:33,800
Speaker 1: new episode next week