1
00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:14,480
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

2
00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:19,320
Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

3
00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:22,480
Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

4
00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:26,600
Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,

5
00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:32,040
Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

6
00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:35,600
Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

7
00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:39,440
Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you

8
00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:43,479
Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is

9
00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:46,400
Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with

10
00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:57,480
Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much

11
00:00:57,520 --> 00:00:59,640
Speaker 1: for joining me for session four fifty two of the

12
00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,800
Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our

13
00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:15,160
Speaker 1: conversation after a word from our sponsors. Where were you

14
00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:18,600
Speaker 1: when it is having a boyfriend embarrassing Now? Article dropped

15
00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:22,360
Speaker 1: late last year. When the piece came out, it immediately

16
00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:25,200
Speaker 1: took Internet discourse by storm and had a lot of

17
00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:29,240
Speaker 1: people in heterosexual relationships questioning and taking a deeper look

18
00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:32,640
Speaker 1: into their relationships. The piece pushed a lot of us

19
00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:35,679
Speaker 1: to ask ourselves, what does it actually look like to

20
00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:39,640
Speaker 1: publicly claim my partner. I'm excited to welcome the woman

21
00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:43,320
Speaker 1: behind the article London based writer and digital content producer

22
00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:47,319
Speaker 1: Chante Joseph, whose Nuance commentary on culture had all of

23
00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:51,080
Speaker 1: us in quite a tizzy. Today we'll unpack the realities

24
00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:53,720
Speaker 1: of dating and the digital age, and how women are

25
00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:58,600
Speaker 1: redefining partnership as society shows further away from patriarchy. If

26
00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:01,800
Speaker 1: something resonates with you while in join our conversation, please

27
00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:04,840
Speaker 1: share with us on social media using the hashtag tpg

28
00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:08,320
Speaker 1: in session, or join us over in our patreon to

29
00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:10,720
Speaker 1: talk more about the episode. You can join us at

30
00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:14,640
Speaker 1: Community that Therapy from Blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation.

31
00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:23,000
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us to dash, I say.

32
00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:24,880
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited.

33
00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:28,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, I am so thrilled to chat with you.

34
00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:31,000
Speaker 1: I feel like you have one of the articles that

35
00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:35,400
Speaker 1: were read around the world is having a boyfriend now embarrassing?

36
00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:37,680
Speaker 1: And so I would love to get some background from you,

37
00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:40,560
Speaker 1: like was there something in particular that you saw going

38
00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:43,480
Speaker 1: on that like was the origin for that piece or

39
00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:44,480
Speaker 1: where did it come from?

40
00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:47,240
Speaker 4: I think I just started to notice that people are

41
00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:51,000
Speaker 4: being really weirdly kind of secretive about their partners online,

42
00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:53,840
Speaker 4: and not just people who are celebrities, but just like

43
00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:58,360
Speaker 4: regular regular people. And I kind of started to see

44
00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:03,880
Speaker 4: that just online and our conversation around relationships, particularly hetersexual relationships,

45
00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:08,200
Speaker 4: was changing quite drastically, and it didn't have this same

46
00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:12,720
Speaker 4: sort of sense of aspiration and achievement that it once did,

47
00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:16,640
Speaker 4: and so I was wondering if these two things were connected.

48
00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:19,440
Speaker 4: In the UK, there were like two quite big I

49
00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:22,840
Speaker 4: guess influencers or content creators who one got married and

50
00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:26,840
Speaker 4: one was proposed to and in both the wedding video

51
00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:30,760
Speaker 4: and in the engagement video, the partner's spaces were always

52
00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:32,760
Speaker 4: cut out of the frame, and I was like, this

53
00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:34,920
Speaker 4: is so weird. And also it started to become like

54
00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:37,680
Speaker 4: a bit of a mockery of itself, like people would

55
00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:41,160
Speaker 4: do things to intentionally cut out their partner's head in

56
00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:43,680
Speaker 4: order to make fun of or make light of people

57
00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:45,880
Speaker 4: who do it, and I was like, wow, why is.

58
00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:46,720
Speaker 2: This actually happening?

59
00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:50,120
Speaker 4: And so I just pitched it as an idea that

60
00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:51,920
Speaker 4: I would go out into the world and speak to

61
00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:54,360
Speaker 4: women about and try to figure out why this is happening.

62
00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:56,200
Speaker 2: And yeah, it was just really interesting.

63
00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:57,920
Speaker 4: All of the people who came back to me and

64
00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:00,000
Speaker 4: were speaking to me about the piece and giving me

65
00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,280
Speaker 4: their insights and sharing their perspectives, and they had like

66
00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:05,680
Speaker 4: a myriad of reasons while they were doing it, but

67
00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:07,960
Speaker 4: I guess the big thing was that there was this

68
00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:10,920
Speaker 4: idea of being in a romantic relationship with a man

69
00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,400
Speaker 4: indicated a politics or a way of being or a

70
00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:17,480
Speaker 4: person whod that I did not identify with, and it

71
00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:21,320
Speaker 4: just felt like fundamentally quite uncool. And so it was

72
00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:24,440
Speaker 4: just really interesting to see those experiences and hear from

73
00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:26,840
Speaker 4: those women and how they helped shape the piece, but also,

74
00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:29,160
Speaker 4: like you know, they were part of the wider conversation

75
00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:30,040
Speaker 4: that happened afterwards.

76
00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:32,400
Speaker 2: Everyone was sharing their opinions on the piece.

77
00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:34,560
Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, I think the title just itself.

78
00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:36,360
Speaker 1: I don't know if you were responsible for the title,

79
00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:38,880
Speaker 1: if there was the editorial staff, but the title is

80
00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:40,919
Speaker 1: very joying, right, and so it is definitely something that

81
00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:43,520
Speaker 1: is going to get a lot of conversation. But it

82
00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:46,400
Speaker 1: also seems like there was a very stark response to

83
00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:49,440
Speaker 1: the piece. And you have talked about this whiplash almost

84
00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:52,479
Speaker 1: of oh my gosh, people are reading like journalism is bag,

85
00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:54,839
Speaker 1: but also like, oh, this is what's wrong with the

86
00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:57,120
Speaker 1: internet kind of thing. Can you talk about like some

87
00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:59,560
Speaker 1: of the response that you received post article.

88
00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:02,920
Speaker 2: I think you had a lot of women who loved

89
00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:04,200
Speaker 2: the piece. They were like, this is amazing.

90
00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:06,799
Speaker 4: A lot of women who, for most of their lives

91
00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:09,680
Speaker 4: they felt really bad about being single. Their singleness felt

92
00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:12,520
Speaker 4: like it was indicative of something more not nefarious, but

93
00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:15,120
Speaker 4: just something that was like lacking in them. And now

94
00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:17,480
Speaker 4: they kind of felt like, oh, this kind of identity

95
00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:20,440
Speaker 4: that I aspired to be someone's girlfriend, to have a boyfriend,

96
00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:23,160
Speaker 4: isn't actually as kind of interesting and magical as I

97
00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:24,719
Speaker 4: thought it was. And so there was a sense of

98
00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:27,719
Speaker 4: relief for them. And then you kind of had women

99
00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:30,680
Speaker 4: in relationships who felt really attacked by the peace, especially

100
00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:32,280
Speaker 4: women who had been single for a long time, who

101
00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:34,160
Speaker 4: would just say things like, you know, I finally got

102
00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,800
Speaker 4: a partner, and now everyone is saying it's uncle, Like

103
00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:38,960
Speaker 4: why are you doing this to me? And it was

104
00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,320
Speaker 4: just a bit like I hear it, But you know,

105
00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:43,440
Speaker 4: for them, it was like they wanted to cling onto

106
00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:45,920
Speaker 4: the I guess, the prestige that this identity gave them.

107
00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:48,800
Speaker 4: And then you had the men who were just human.

108
00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:52,640
Speaker 4: They were so angry they were not having it, sending

109
00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:55,000
Speaker 4: me a lot of hate, a lot of threats, just

110
00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:57,600
Speaker 4: really awful things. And I've been online for such a

111
00:05:57,640 --> 00:05:59,719
Speaker 4: long time and I've been writing for such a long time,

112
00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:01,920
Speaker 4: and you know, I used to write a lot around

113
00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:05,000
Speaker 4: like anti bacism, things like Black Lives Matter in the UK,

114
00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:06,920
Speaker 4: and you know, all of the stuff that happens here,

115
00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:09,839
Speaker 4: and I would get a lot of backlash and racist

116
00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:12,200
Speaker 4: abuse on line or whatever, and you get very used

117
00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:12,359
Speaker 4: to that.

118
00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:14,280
Speaker 2: I mean, you're just terrible. But like I think, when

119
00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:14,960
Speaker 2: you're a black.

120
00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:18,200
Speaker 4: Woman online and you have opinions and you're talking against

121
00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:19,799
Speaker 4: I guess the what is the norm?

122
00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:22,400
Speaker 2: People don't like it and they get real angry at you.

123
00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:24,320
Speaker 2: So I was used that for a long time.

124
00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:28,839
Speaker 4: But the energy, the hatred I got from these men,

125
00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:33,280
Speaker 4: these like in cells deep in the manisphere, that was scary.

126
00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:37,800
Speaker 4: That was petrifying. And it just taught me a lot

127
00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:41,400
Speaker 4: about where I guess a lot of men are politically

128
00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:45,360
Speaker 4: and how their sort of male loniness epidemic is manifesting

129
00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:48,120
Speaker 4: in this sort of like hatred and violence against women.

130
00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:49,640
Speaker 2: And yeah, they couldn't stand it.

131
00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:52,279
Speaker 4: And then I can say to you, there was like

132
00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:55,840
Speaker 4: another level of like racism in this in the sense

133
00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:58,719
Speaker 4: that as a black woman I am writing this piece,

134
00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:01,479
Speaker 4: is having a boyfund embarrassing now, And a lot of

135
00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:04,280
Speaker 4: white women are taken to it and they love it.

136
00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:06,160
Speaker 4: And then white men were seeing that and they were

137
00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:08,839
Speaker 4: kind of angry at me for being the person who

138
00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:12,520
Speaker 4: ruined the sanctity of like white Western relationships. You know,

139
00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:14,640
Speaker 4: I had a lot of women being like, I just

140
00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:16,640
Speaker 4: done my boyfriend, I just worke with my boyfriend because

141
00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:17,880
Speaker 4: of this peace blah blah blah.

142
00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:20,600
Speaker 2: And then you would have boyfriends who would be angry

143
00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:20,920
Speaker 2: at me.

144
00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:23,960
Speaker 4: And it was really, really, really wild, and the insults

145
00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:27,480
Speaker 4: were very interesting because it would be like the kind

146
00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:31,080
Speaker 4: of typical misogyny, but it would just be like, you're

147
00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:34,440
Speaker 4: a black woman, You're the least desired, no one wants you.

148
00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:36,840
Speaker 4: You're not even good looking. Of course you think having

149
00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:39,680
Speaker 4: a boyfriend's embarrassing. No one wants you, You're ugly. Like

150
00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:43,120
Speaker 4: it was just so it was just so personal.

151
00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:43,480
Speaker 2: So vindictive.

152
00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:47,040
Speaker 4: There's something about racism that is like somewhat impersonal, like

153
00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:48,920
Speaker 4: just because of the kind of my skin, this is

154
00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:49,800
Speaker 4: what you think I am.

155
00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:51,480
Speaker 2: But it doesn't really have anything to do with me.

156
00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:53,840
Speaker 4: But it's just like how I present, but it was

157
00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:56,720
Speaker 4: just like racism, it was misogyny. It was like me

158
00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:58,640
Speaker 4: being a woman, me being a black woman on line

159
00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:01,360
Speaker 4: with opinions, and it was like just layers and layers

160
00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:03,520
Speaker 4: and layers and layers of abuse, all kind of powered

161
00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:05,920
Speaker 4: up of people just really really angry about it.

162
00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:07,160
Speaker 2: So it was a lot.

163
00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:10,240
Speaker 1: And I think that there's something to be said about

164
00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:12,880
Speaker 1: a piece that it strikes so many cores for people,

165
00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:15,000
Speaker 1: kind of on the more positive in and on the

166
00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:18,200
Speaker 1: very negative in. But I also wonder, like, what are

167
00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:21,880
Speaker 1: your thoughts around, like just the psychology of people reading

168
00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:25,120
Speaker 1: like an article and like so identifying with it, right,

169
00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:27,360
Speaker 1: because in a lot of ways, like in the psychology world,

170
00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:29,200
Speaker 1: you became the bad object.

171
00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:31,960
Speaker 3: For these men, right, like, oh, she's the reason.

172
00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:33,840
Speaker 1: Why my wife hates me, not all the other awful

173
00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:37,120
Speaker 1: things I've done her, right this one article. And so

174
00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:39,280
Speaker 1: what are your thoughts just around like the psychology of

175
00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:42,120
Speaker 1: like why people reacted so strongly to the piece.

176
00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:45,200
Speaker 4: I think for the women who are really upset, I

177
00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:48,880
Speaker 4: think it's because they too need to believe in the

178
00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:52,959
Speaker 4: privilege of the heterosexual relationship. And if you are someone

179
00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:56,840
Speaker 4: who doesn't have a lot of privileges in society and straightness,

180
00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:01,200
Speaker 4: and like your heteronormative identity is a privilege, then you

181
00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:03,320
Speaker 4: want to hold onto that. And that's not to say

182
00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:05,920
Speaker 4: that they hate everyone else, but I think there's an

183
00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:09,600
Speaker 4: element of like, oh, I might have to relinquish the

184
00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:13,720
Speaker 4: idea that this identity I hold, this performance is something

185
00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:16,839
Speaker 4: that will gain me more access to things or more

186
00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:21,600
Speaker 4: cultural capital. And then for men, I think their anger

187
00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:24,360
Speaker 4: was more to do with the fact that they are

188
00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:28,520
Speaker 4: losing power in so many spheres in life, in the workplace,

189
00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:31,520
Speaker 4: in education, even in the home. Like men do not

190
00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:34,240
Speaker 4: retain the same level of power and dominance that they

191
00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:36,720
Speaker 4: once had, and the only place that they can really

192
00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:40,560
Speaker 4: and truly exert that now is within the emotional space

193
00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:42,800
Speaker 4: in the dating world. Like as much as we have

194
00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:45,679
Speaker 4: progressed so much as women and we can open bank

195
00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:48,760
Speaker 4: accounts and work and be educated, I sometimes feel like

196
00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:51,000
Speaker 4: there's this sort of as reading the paper bag, like

197
00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:55,440
Speaker 4: a cultural lag where what we see as a normal

198
00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:57,880
Speaker 4: I guess ordinary for a woman to do today, like

199
00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:01,559
Speaker 4: being independent whateverever, has an necessarily caught up with the

200
00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:05,040
Speaker 4: ideas we have around singleness and womanhood. And there's still

201
00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:07,720
Speaker 4: I think people are at the court in this desire

202
00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:11,280
Speaker 4: to want something that's traditional while living a very modern life,

203
00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:14,280
Speaker 4: and so because of that, that's yearning to be in

204
00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:17,440
Speaker 4: these emotional dynamics with men. I think a lot of

205
00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:19,600
Speaker 4: women do relinquish a lot of power to men in

206
00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:24,319
Speaker 4: these emotional worlds. And if now having a boyfriend is embarrassing,

207
00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,680
Speaker 4: being romantically associated with a man is embarrassing, and you're

208
00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:30,640
Speaker 4: taking back some of your power, they don't like that.

209
00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:33,480
Speaker 4: Where else are they going to exert dominance? Where else

210
00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:35,360
Speaker 4: are they going to be able to prove and show

211
00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:39,199
Speaker 4: and display and masculinity if not in dominating the emotional

212
00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:41,520
Speaker 4: worlds in this way. And so I think on a

213
00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:45,120
Speaker 4: deeper level, it was an insecurity for men and women,

214
00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:47,360
Speaker 4: women not being able to have the privilege of a

215
00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:51,000
Speaker 4: head sexual partnership, men not having emotional dominance in the

216
00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:54,480
Speaker 4: dating world. And so I think that's what really got

217
00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:57,760
Speaker 4: people rouled up. And then you just had women who

218
00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:02,760
Speaker 4: had historically always felt bad about their singleness feeling like,

219
00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:06,520
Speaker 4: oh my gosh, like are the tables turning? Are things changing?

220
00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:10,440
Speaker 4: And that really shocked me the most because I'm twenty nine,

221
00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:13,040
Speaker 4: I'm thirty this year but I was getting messages from

222
00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:15,280
Speaker 4: you know, like twenty one year olds, like nineteen year

223
00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:19,240
Speaker 4: olds who just felt like because they didn't have boyfriends

224
00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:21,360
Speaker 4: in their lives, they felt less than they felt like

225
00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:22,120
Speaker 4: they weren't good people.

226
00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:22,560
Speaker 2: They felt that.

227
00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:25,640
Speaker 4: Something wrong with them, which really broke my heart because

228
00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:27,680
Speaker 4: I can't believe from such a young age, you guys

229
00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:31,600
Speaker 4: are conditioned to believe and think that because there is

230
00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:34,640
Speaker 4: not a man displaying any interest in you, you are

231
00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:38,959
Speaker 4: rendered invisible. It starts so young, and so for them,

232
00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:41,840
Speaker 4: it was affirming this idea that they are actually okay

233
00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:44,840
Speaker 4: and like being in a relationship doesn't necessarily make them

234
00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:46,319
Speaker 4: any better as people.

235
00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:48,480
Speaker 2: So that was like a good thing. But I guess, yeah,

236
00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:51,080
Speaker 2: depending on your situation, you read it very differently.

237
00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:54,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, And what was there like kind of taking care

238
00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:57,600
Speaker 1: of yourself in the aftermath of this virility, right, because

239
00:11:57,640 --> 00:11:59,840
Speaker 1: I think that's a piece that is not often talked about,

240
00:11:59,880 --> 00:12:02,480
Speaker 1: Like we have this piece that is red around the world,

241
00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:04,640
Speaker 1: and then you're having all this positive reaction but are

242
00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:08,160
Speaker 1: self very negative reaction. How did you find yourself reacting

243
00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:09,559
Speaker 1: and what did you need to do to take care

244
00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:10,120
Speaker 1: of yourself?

245
00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:12,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I went right back to therapy.

246
00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:17,320
Speaker 4: I had to think in therapy every single week since

247
00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:20,480
Speaker 4: that oh oh came out every single week because it

248
00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:23,280
Speaker 4: was crazy. It was so crazy because you're not only

249
00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:25,360
Speaker 4: are you kind of getting this like hate and abuse,

250
00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:28,280
Speaker 4: but then you're having like hundreds and thousands of people

251
00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:31,840
Speaker 4: following you online looking at what you're doing, engage with

252
00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:34,480
Speaker 4: what you're doing, wanting to know what you're thinking about

253
00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:37,040
Speaker 4: this thing. There's the anticipation of like, what are you

254
00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:39,840
Speaker 4: going to do next? And then there are people who

255
00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:42,600
Speaker 4: are prying into your life.

256
00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:44,400
Speaker 2: Do you have a partner, do you have boyfriend?

257
00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:45,880
Speaker 4: Oh, you don't have a boyfriend, or that's why you

258
00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:48,760
Speaker 4: think that, you know, people becoming really kind of I guess,

259
00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:50,880
Speaker 4: familiar and personal with you in a way that can

260
00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:54,400
Speaker 4: just feel quite confronting. And then I think there was

261
00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:59,400
Speaker 4: just a lot around trying to almost protect and preserve

262
00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:02,440
Speaker 4: like my and my thoughts and my ideas and not

263
00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:04,080
Speaker 4: feel too invested in it.

264
00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:04,880
Speaker 2: In some ways, I.

265
00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:07,920
Speaker 4: Felt the leader of a movement almost and then I

266
00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:11,200
Speaker 4: felt a huge sense of responsibility to make sure I

267
00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:13,679
Speaker 4: was doing all of the right things, saying all of

268
00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:15,839
Speaker 4: the right things, showing up online in the right ways.

269
00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,480
Speaker 4: And that was really overwhelming, and so yeah, I had

270
00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:20,959
Speaker 4: to like go to therapy. I had to really work

271
00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,840
Speaker 4: out all of this stuff. And also because the comments

272
00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:27,200
Speaker 4: would be so personal, like they were hitting at like wounds,

273
00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:30,880
Speaker 4: they were hitting at old wounds that I was like, oh, okay,

274
00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:33,400
Speaker 4: this is really triggering something in me. I need to

275
00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:36,080
Speaker 4: find a space where I can have these conversations so

276
00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:38,320
Speaker 4: they don't affect the quality of my work going forward.

277
00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:41,520
Speaker 4: And so I had to really lock in and like

278
00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:43,719
Speaker 4: just deal with a lot of stuff that was coming up,

279
00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:47,080
Speaker 4: I think from people just trying to be really malicious

280
00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:48,040
Speaker 4: and evil towards me.

281
00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:51,400
Speaker 1: You know, that's really interesting and I want to hear

282
00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:54,000
Speaker 1: more about this, like this idea that you know, especially

283
00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:56,600
Speaker 1: for a writer in this landscape, right, like to have

284
00:13:56,679 --> 00:13:59,559
Speaker 1: a piece that had hits like this, and then you

285
00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,320
Speaker 1: say like, oh, is this some like movement like people

286
00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:04,280
Speaker 1: are latging on too. It feels like there could be

287
00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:07,040
Speaker 1: the pressure like, oh, this is my lane, right like

288
00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:09,320
Speaker 1: now I got to like gear my career and my

289
00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:12,360
Speaker 1: writing towards this. But you were already writing your book,

290
00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:14,800
Speaker 1: like your book coming out later this year, So how

291
00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:17,080
Speaker 1: are you kind of navigating that pressure to kind of

292
00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:19,680
Speaker 1: be like oh, the boyfriend embarrassing woman.

293
00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:23,920
Speaker 2: It's so true. They want you to be that thing.

294
00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:26,360
Speaker 4: And I think it's difficult for me because I've been

295
00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:28,320
Speaker 4: writing for years and years and years, and I kind

296
00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:30,080
Speaker 4: of write a piece and then I move on, and

297
00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:31,880
Speaker 4: then I write the next piece, and then I move

298
00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:34,080
Speaker 4: from like, so it's really weird to be kind of

299
00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:38,200
Speaker 4: stuck in this place and frozen in with this idea.

300
00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:40,000
Speaker 2: So I've had to really.

301
00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,880
Speaker 4: Work hard to try and make sure I'm pitching ideas

302
00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:48,400
Speaker 4: or writing things that feel different, that show the kind

303
00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:52,200
Speaker 4: of breadth of my interest and my experiences and the

304
00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:55,600
Speaker 4: thoughts I have in the world beyond just sort of dating,

305
00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:59,680
Speaker 4: because I kind of feel like it becomes repetitive after

306
00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:03,880
Speaker 4: a while. Well, and because I am not a professional.

307
00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:07,360
Speaker 4: I am not like a mental health expert whatever. I'm

308
00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:10,520
Speaker 4: never going to be online doing like ten signs you

309
00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:14,520
Speaker 4: have a weird attachment style like six ways to That

310
00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:17,640
Speaker 4: is not my bag. So I can never go online

311
00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:22,640
Speaker 4: and start becoming a relationship expert. I'm just interested in relationships.

312
00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:25,280
Speaker 4: I'm interested in how we're doing dating. I'm interested in

313
00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:27,840
Speaker 4: the kind of divergence between men and women, and I'm

314
00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:30,720
Speaker 4: interested in exploring that I am not in the business

315
00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:34,440
Speaker 4: of giving advice because i'd have any successful relationships on

316
00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:37,000
Speaker 4: my belt for me to tell people or how's avaia relationship?

317
00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:38,920
Speaker 2: I don't know what I'm talking well, but I.

318
00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:43,640
Speaker 4: Am just inquisitive and nosy and curious and I want

319
00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:45,960
Speaker 4: to put out ideas and I want to heal people

320
00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:48,920
Speaker 4: have to say. And so I've been trying to remember, like,

321
00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:49,680
Speaker 4: that is what I.

322
00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:51,480
Speaker 2: Am, that is what I do. I will have.

323
00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:55,440
Speaker 4: More interesting ideas, I will spark more conversations, and they

324
00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:58,280
Speaker 4: don't always have to be about relationships, even though I

325
00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:00,600
Speaker 4: have like written lots about relationships with on the past.

326
00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:02,560
Speaker 2: But you know, I'm kind of interested in a bunch

327
00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:02,840
Speaker 2: of things.

328
00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:07,120
Speaker 4: I'm trying to really give as much as I can

329
00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:09,560
Speaker 4: in terms of like, these are all the things I like.

330
00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:14,680
Speaker 4: I am more than just this one idea or one concept.

331
00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:27,240
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break I love is

332
00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:29,720
Speaker 1: having a boyfriend embarrassing, but I probably love your piece

333
00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:32,800
Speaker 1: around low maintenance friendship, and like I'm giving this up.

334
00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:34,880
Speaker 3: I'm not being a low maintenance friend even more than

335
00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:36,720
Speaker 3: the boyfriend piece. And it feels like.

336
00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:39,000
Speaker 1: It's kind of in conversation with this piece right in

337
00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:42,520
Speaker 1: your earlier comments around it's kind of singleness having a

338
00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:44,560
Speaker 1: moment right now, and it kind of feels.

339
00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:45,120
Speaker 2: Like it is to me.

340
00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:47,880
Speaker 1: But then I hear you say like, oh, nineteen and

341
00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:50,600
Speaker 1: twenty year olds or writing you saying, oh, I feel

342
00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:52,360
Speaker 1: like something was wrong with me because I didn't have

343
00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:54,960
Speaker 1: a boyfriend. What are your thoughts about like the moment

344
00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:57,720
Speaker 1: that singleness is having or not right now? Like how

345
00:16:57,720 --> 00:16:58,960
Speaker 1: do you think women are viewing that?

346
00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:03,680
Speaker 2: I think it's like we're going through a moment, like

347
00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:06,480
Speaker 2: we haven't fully got there yet, but there is like

348
00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:10,000
Speaker 2: significant progress being made, and I feel like that progress

349
00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:13,399
Speaker 2: is going to be expedited because the way men and

350
00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:16,840
Speaker 2: women are doing this. At some point we're.

351
00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:19,439
Speaker 4: Going to have to start figuring out what does truly

352
00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:23,919
Speaker 4: being content single look like? What are the other ways

353
00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:27,880
Speaker 4: that I can imagine my life that don't center around

354
00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:30,159
Speaker 4: I'm going to have a partner one day and this

355
00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:32,399
Speaker 4: is my have three hour after and not in a

356
00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:35,639
Speaker 4: way that is like depressing or immuseual life lacks or

357
00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:36,800
Speaker 4: there's nothing else going on.

358
00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:39,520
Speaker 2: It's just like there has to be new ideas, there has.

359
00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:42,280
Speaker 4: To be new scripts because things are not looking great

360
00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:44,520
Speaker 4: as they are, and as long as women are still

361
00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:47,720
Speaker 4: completely wrapped up and hung up in trying to partner

362
00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:49,320
Speaker 4: with a man, I just think there will just be

363
00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:50,760
Speaker 4: a lot of disappointment.

364
00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:54,000
Speaker 2: So what next? And I think we're in our what next.

365
00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:57,520
Speaker 4: Period where we're figuring out how we build these new lives,

366
00:17:57,560 --> 00:17:59,119
Speaker 4: these new stories.

367
00:17:58,680 --> 00:17:59,719
Speaker 2: These new ideals.

368
00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:04,360
Speaker 4: But I do think I think being online and seeing

369
00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:07,359
Speaker 4: the way that even to like single women, content is

370
00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:10,399
Speaker 4: becoming so much more common and loads of people are

371
00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:15,120
Speaker 4: talking about their experiences very candidly, like that shame is disappearing,

372
00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:18,840
Speaker 4: and because we talk about our negative experiences with men

373
00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:21,199
Speaker 4: so much more candidly, and I definitely credit a lot

374
00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:24,320
Speaker 4: of that to gen Z. They know how to discuss

375
00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:27,040
Speaker 4: what it was like to date someone or the ls

376
00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:29,640
Speaker 4: that they had to hold in their dating lives without

377
00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:31,160
Speaker 4: carrying the collective shame.

378
00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:34,520
Speaker 2: And what that has done is it has more women.

379
00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:36,919
Speaker 4: In conversation about the things that they've experienced, because before

380
00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:39,720
Speaker 4: it would be like, oh, this man treated me this way.

381
00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:43,000
Speaker 4: I haven't heard anyone else being treated like this, so truly,

382
00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:45,720
Speaker 4: this must be about me as an individual. There is

383
00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:48,120
Speaker 4: something about me that made this person treat me this way.

384
00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:51,520
Speaker 4: But what we're realizing is that, oh, no, he treated

385
00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:53,280
Speaker 4: all of these people this way, and all these people

386
00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:57,119
Speaker 4: receive this treatment, and it's not about me being uniquely bad.

387
00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:00,280
Speaker 4: This is just what men have been allowed to do

388
00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:02,800
Speaker 4: and how they've been allowed to behave in the dating space.

389
00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:05,320
Speaker 4: And so because of that, I think people are taking

390
00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:10,560
Speaker 4: things less personally. There's disinvesting slowly and slowly from these relationships,

391
00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:13,320
Speaker 4: and they're thinking about how expansive their life can be.

392
00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:16,280
Speaker 4: And I think at first that's that feels quite difficult

393
00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:18,399
Speaker 4: because we've been told this is what it means to

394
00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:20,159
Speaker 4: live a good life, this is what it means to

395
00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:22,560
Speaker 4: be happy, this is what means to be fulfilled, this

396
00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:25,800
Speaker 4: is what means to graduate into adulthood. And so when

397
00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:27,840
Speaker 4: you don't have those markers, you're like, what do I

398
00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:29,720
Speaker 4: do now? I'm really scared. But then on the other

399
00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:32,080
Speaker 4: side of that, it's like, Oh, I can do anything,

400
00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:35,160
Speaker 4: Like the world is my oyster. I can imagine any

401
00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:37,159
Speaker 4: sort of future for myself when I no longer have

402
00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:39,719
Speaker 4: these parameters telling me I need to exist in this

403
00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:42,840
Speaker 4: way to be happy. And so I think we are

404
00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:45,080
Speaker 4: on the precipice of something great.

405
00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:46,480
Speaker 2: But I think there's.

406
00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:49,560
Speaker 4: Also a collective grief that needs to happen, mourning the

407
00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:52,240
Speaker 4: lives that we thought that we would all live, mourning

408
00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:55,360
Speaker 4: this idea of like the couple being the center of

409
00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,440
Speaker 4: our world, of our society. Like so much is changing,

410
00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:02,240
Speaker 4: and I think, yeah, there's collective grief before there is

411
00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:03,919
Speaker 4: like a radical acceptance.

412
00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:07,840
Speaker 1: What do you think those stakes are for black women

413
00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:10,439
Speaker 1: in this conversation? Right, because the article was kind of

414
00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:13,320
Speaker 1: globally relative to lots of people, But I do think

415
00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:16,040
Speaker 1: that there's a particular conversation and maybe response they are

416
00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:19,680
Speaker 1: black women here to the piece, Can you share that? Yeah?

417
00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:22,600
Speaker 4: I think it was most of my platforms anyway, Like

418
00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:24,960
Speaker 4: most of my followers are black women, so I always

419
00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:29,240
Speaker 4: feel like I'm constantly in conversation with them, writing for

420
00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:32,880
Speaker 4: them to them, and I think their response from black

421
00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:35,080
Speaker 4: women across the board, it was definitely buried. I think

422
00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:38,399
Speaker 4: people who are more religious, people who grew up in

423
00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:41,840
Speaker 4: the church, people who are very I guess traditional ideas

424
00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:46,200
Speaker 4: around partnership, I think they found it in some ways

425
00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:48,600
Speaker 4: more difficult to accept.

426
00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:50,840
Speaker 2: Like I just wrote this piece for Glamar.

427
00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:52,960
Speaker 4: I assuming out yet, but it's about some of the

428
00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:55,720
Speaker 4: responses I got to my piece, and like a lot

429
00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:58,119
Speaker 4: of black men, those who are particularly in the church,

430
00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:01,040
Speaker 4: would call me like, oh wait, or you know this

431
00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:03,720
Speaker 4: is not of God, You're doing the devil's work.

432
00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:04,080
Speaker 2: You know.

433
00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:06,800
Speaker 4: There was that sort of thing of like insinuating that

434
00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:10,720
Speaker 4: because I had the audacity to question how accepting we

435
00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:14,160
Speaker 4: are of head sexual relationships and not actually questioning whether

436
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,000
Speaker 4: those dynamics are always really healthy, like I was doing

437
00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:17,800
Speaker 4: the devil's work.

438
00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:19,400
Speaker 2: So sure, so I think.

439
00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:21,280
Speaker 4: For some women it was like it was confronting in

440
00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:23,679
Speaker 4: that way, but for a lot of black women, like they.

441
00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:25,120
Speaker 2: Had already been on this right.

442
00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:28,919
Speaker 4: I always think of Charlie's toolbox and her bringing up

443
00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:32,240
Speaker 4: this idea of decentering men, and that was like a truly, truly,

444
00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:35,480
Speaker 4: truly like transformative piece of information for me. I remember

445
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,120
Speaker 4: coming across her maybe in like twenty twenty or something

446
00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:38,520
Speaker 4: like that, and.

447
00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:40,920
Speaker 2: It completely changed my life. So people like.

448
00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:44,400
Speaker 4: Her have always been ahead of the curve in terms

449
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:48,639
Speaker 4: of like being quite inquisitive and questioning everything we know

450
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:51,840
Speaker 4: to be a head sexualromantic relationship. And so I think

451
00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:54,240
Speaker 4: I credit a lot of black women for me having

452
00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:57,240
Speaker 4: the I guess even the bravery or the curiosity to

453
00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:59,720
Speaker 4: ask the questions I had to ask, and so in

454
00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:01,800
Speaker 4: some respects it was like people would be like, yeah,

455
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:04,159
Speaker 4: one hundred percent with you on this all the way,

456
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:06,080
Speaker 4: I absolutely love this, and then others would be like,

457
00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:09,160
Speaker 4: this is say tat Nick, and so it was kind

458
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:10,800
Speaker 4: of like that sort of balance.

459
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:12,639
Speaker 2: And then there were also I think a lot of

460
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:13,560
Speaker 2: black women.

461
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:17,160
Speaker 4: Who had like never been in relationships before and had

462
00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:20,800
Speaker 4: this sort of I like this, this feeling of I

463
00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:22,960
Speaker 4: can read this piece and I can understand it, and

464
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,240
Speaker 4: I can hear all about these women's experiences and I

465
00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:28,159
Speaker 4: can understand why they feel this way. But I still

466
00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:32,240
Speaker 4: haven't fully been able to accept this as an idea

467
00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:36,400
Speaker 4: because I actually yearned for companionship in that way. And

468
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,840
Speaker 4: obviously I was never really arguing or trying to argue

469
00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,120
Speaker 4: with people, but I was always really curious about what,

470
00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:45,359
Speaker 4: like how they felt and how this piece made them feel,

471
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,439
Speaker 4: and their thoughts on what relationships could look like for

472
00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:49,800
Speaker 4: them in a different world.

473
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:53,320
Speaker 2: So yeah, there was a lot of conversations that I had.

474
00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:57,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, it feels like that really speaks to the morning

475
00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:59,399
Speaker 1: piece that you taught about, right, like, you know, we

476
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:01,679
Speaker 1: can make space for both of these things to be true,

477
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,040
Speaker 1: Like there can be a yearning for companionship, and if

478
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,840
Speaker 1: you find healthy companionship, I don't think anybody is arguing

479
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:10,000
Speaker 1: against it. But can there also be space for all

480
00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:12,439
Speaker 1: of these people who may want companionship and for whatever

481
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:14,880
Speaker 1: reason it doesn't happen, right, And how he can still

482
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,560
Speaker 1: go on to have a very full and happy life, right,

483
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:19,360
Speaker 1: Like both of those things can be true.

484
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly, but I think it's difficult.

485
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:26,040
Speaker 4: I think people struggle to The thing with like like

486
00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:29,040
Speaker 4: straight relationships is that there has to be some sort

487
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:32,720
Speaker 4: of superiority to the form of the couple that makes

488
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,120
Speaker 4: single life feel quite unbearable. Like we view couples as

489
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,560
Speaker 4: morally superior, they are doing life the right way. There's

490
00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:41,639
Speaker 4: a book called Minimizing Marriage, and she was like, you know,

491
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,639
Speaker 4: there are over one thousand sort of like laws or

492
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:49,080
Speaker 4: regulations that are specifically.

493
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:50,399
Speaker 2: Benefits for married people.

494
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:52,480
Speaker 4: And it's just like, this is the world that we

495
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,359
Speaker 4: live in, right, So we see coupled them as a

496
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:58,800
Speaker 4: aspirational state, and it can only be aspirational if being

497
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:01,400
Speaker 4: single is not. And so I think it's so hard

498
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 4: for people to hold those truths at the same time

499
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 4: because one has to be elevated above the other in

500
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:09,240
Speaker 4: order for it to be desirable. If that was like

501
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:13,359
Speaker 4: relationship neutrality, I don't know if as many people would

502
00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:14,480
Speaker 4: actually even couple up.

503
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:17,399
Speaker 1: So, you know, one of the main arguments that the

504
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,080
Speaker 1: piece was really making was around kind of like posting

505
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:22,359
Speaker 1: partners right, So a lot of this kind of came

506
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 1: in the back end of the article. But like your

507
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,199
Speaker 1: main comment and one of your central thesis is it

508
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 1: feels like, was why aren't people posting right? Like it

509
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:33,119
Speaker 1: feels like there's a very intentional act to like not

510
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,879
Speaker 1: post your partners But the other side of that is

511
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 1: that we have seen, you know, people who get into

512
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,439
Speaker 1: relationships and then like they get brand deals or like

513
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:45,160
Speaker 1: all of these like there's a real monetization of coupling

514
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 1: that also happens. Can you talk about like that piece,

515
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 1: like how you know, like just the idea of content

516
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 1: creation has also maybe reinforced these ideas of partnership being ideal.

517
00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:59,879
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean people are seeing love Island when it

518
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:04,400
Speaker 4: and stuff like that. There's definitely a whole industry around

519
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 4: the couple and people definitely buy into it because they

520
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:11,400
Speaker 4: think it's aspirational. But also I think the fallout from

521
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:15,639
Speaker 4: those relationships are always incredibly messy, and in some ways,

522
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,159
Speaker 4: I feel like a lot of people are sat on

523
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 4: the edge of their seats, like just thinking, oh, when

524
00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 4: is this gonna go wrong? Like I think of Kirsty

525
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,440
Speaker 4: Desmond and Scott Desmond their life day. Yeah, they were

526
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,520
Speaker 4: social media couple and they used to dancing around and stuff,

527
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:33,119
Speaker 4: and then you know, they suddenly broke up and he

528
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:34,879
Speaker 4: had like cheered on her and then he was in

529
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 4: the club the next day and it was on TMZ.

530
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 4: And there is definitely something around also just the downfall

531
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:45,120
Speaker 4: of these relationships that people are just obsessed with too.

532
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 4: But I think, yeah, there is a lot around. It's

533
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 4: still aspirational to be in a relationship, so people are

534
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:53,359
Speaker 4: able to make a lot of money kind of creating

535
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 4: content from being with their partners. But I also think

536
00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,880
Speaker 4: after awhile does start to feel like super contrived, especially

537
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,199
Speaker 4: people are starting to feel a little bit more like

538
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 4: you know, being irl with people and like not having

539
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:07,639
Speaker 4: all of your ideals shaped by what you be on

540
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 4: social media, and like not feeling as if what you

541
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,119
Speaker 4: see online has to be a reflection of your own life.

542
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 4: I do feel like things that are changing a lot,

543
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,879
Speaker 4: and also just the rise in a single women content creators,

544
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 4: even just like single women focus community groups and spaces,

545
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:25,200
Speaker 4: there is just a lot that is happening in.

546
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 2: That world that is growing.

547
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 4: I would say, like equally as big as that sort

548
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 4: of content too, and even just the amount of community

549
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 4: groups that have popped up, like people are desperate to

550
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 4: be in bigger communities with others. Like I think the

551
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:42,919
Speaker 4: focus on the couple feels like it has less and

552
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 4: less of a group on people as they actually seek

553
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:48,119
Speaker 4: to be a meaningful part of communities where they have

554
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 4: roles and responsibilities and they need to show up for people.

555
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 4: But yeah, for now, Like, if you are in a

556
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 4: couple and you are online, like you could probably make

557
00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:59,399
Speaker 4: some money from it, but you are also going to

558
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,680
Speaker 4: be the subject of like prying eyes and opinions all

559
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:03,119
Speaker 4: the time.

560
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:04,120
Speaker 3: Mm hmm.

561
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 1: When I think about like okay posting partners online, that

562
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 1: is what I see a lot is that people then

563
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 1: feel entitled to like commentary and like make suggestions and like, oh,

564
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:15,680
Speaker 1: why are they doing these kinds.

565
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 3: Of things anymore?

566
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 1: But one of the women that you interviewed and the

567
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 1: piece also talked about like having to get rid of

568
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:25,239
Speaker 1: twelve years of content after a breakup, right, Like how

569
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 1: much do you think? Like the idea of a potential

570
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:32,639
Speaker 1: breakup also informs how people maybe share their partners online.

571
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:33,879
Speaker 2: Oh, one hundred percent.

572
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 4: One thing that so many women said to me was like,

573
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,880
Speaker 4: if this man cheats on me and embarrasses me, I'm

574
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 4: going to have to do this purge of my social

575
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:47,680
Speaker 4: media platforms and that is going to be humiliating. And

576
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 4: it's just this idea of you've met this person, you're

577
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 4: in a relationship this person, but in the back of

578
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:57,720
Speaker 4: your mind, you are anticipating this future embarrassment where you're

579
00:27:57,720 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 4: going to have to go and purgrole of your social

580
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 4: media because you.

581
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 2: Can't be seen to be with them anymore.

582
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:05,919
Speaker 4: It's almost like women just expect it as part of

583
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,920
Speaker 4: the deal of dating men, and it's just so bad

584
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 4: that they don't even see the point in posting them

585
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,200
Speaker 4: in the first place, Like why would I ever do

586
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 4: that when I just feel like something is going to

587
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:18,399
Speaker 4: happen or something could happen, and I don't want to

588
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 4: put myself in a position where I have to walk

589
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 4: back this sort of declaration of love. Like so many

590
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 4: people are always Like you know, loving a man feels

591
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 4: like a humiliation ritual because you just feel like you

592
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,479
Speaker 4: are just waiting, like when is the other shoe going

593
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 4: to drop?

594
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:34,639
Speaker 2: Like when is it going to go bad?

595
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 4: And you are protecting yourself against that, and that protection

596
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 4: also looks like making sure they're nowhere to be seen

597
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 4: on your social media even if you love them so much.

598
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 4: You just know that it doesn't matter how much I

599
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,239
Speaker 4: love you, you have the capacity to truly be evil, and

600
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:51,719
Speaker 4: I can do nothing but just prepare for that.

601
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 3: Essentially, you know so much.

602
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 1: This wasn't directly addressed in Europeace, but I feel like

603
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 1: the conversations around like being romantic, couples being ideal and

604
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 1: all of that come from realmcounts, right, Like so many

605
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 1: of us are socialized to think about this and like.

606
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:07,959
Speaker 3: So many movies, so many pieces.

607
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 1: Is there any particular realm count then you feel like

608
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 1: really informed your ideas about partnership, or maybe a book

609
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,320
Speaker 1: or a piece of media that has kind of shaped

610
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 1: these ideas for you.

611
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 2: That's such a good question. I can't lie. I am

612
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 2: not a rom com.

613
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 4: Person at all, Like I do not like rom coms,

614
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 4: like I don't like any sort of romantic and things.

615
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 4: The only time I will watch them if it has

616
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 4: gripped the zeitgeist and we're all talking about it and

617
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 4: it's like something that you have to watch because you

618
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 4: need to be a parplical conversation. I will watch it,

619
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 4: but never out of just enjoyment. Maybe I'm just dead inside,

620
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 4: but I really struggle.

621
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 2: I'm like, this is not real.

622
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 4: I'll watch Interstella and I'll be like, yeah, string theory

623
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 4: going through the universe to go back in time to

624
00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 4: get his daughter and she's old at love believable. I'm

625
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 4: locked in a wrong com I'm like, what the hell

626
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 4: is this?

627
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 2: This is not real.

628
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 4: Obviously, I guess like Bridget Jones and stuff like that

629
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 4: I've always found like really funny and sort of like

630
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 4: relatable and interesting. Obviously, sex and theity, like I like

631
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 4: love sex and the cy down, Like definitely feel like

632
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 4: that has probably shaped maybe just I guess pessimism in

633
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 4: some sense around relationships and just like yeah, kind of

634
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 4: how I think about them.

635
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 2: More generally.

636
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 4: There was a film called Serendipity that I've watched that

637
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 4: I really really loved. I think those are the ones

638
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 4: I was like, oh, this is quite good. But outside

639
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 4: of that, I'm just like I cannot. I'm like skip next,

640
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 4: don't want to do it, Like, don't it cage with

641
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 4: me at all.

642
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 3: I wonder how you balance for yourself.

643
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 1: I mean because even in the piece you talk about

644
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 1: you know also your own yearning for a companionship, right,

645
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 1: like that is something that you've written about, but also

646
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 1: balancing with like I'm doing inside and I also.

647
00:30:55,800 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 3: Don't love this. How do you strike their balance in

648
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 3: your every day Like I.

649
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 2: Am in therapy.

650
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 4: Everyone, I'm in therapy every single week, literally, I guess

651
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 4: every using week. I definitely feel like part of it

652
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 4: for me is like trying to be I think maybe

653
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 4: more optimistic.

654
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 2: I think I think I've.

655
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 4: Just read too much and I've heard too much that

656
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 4: I'm a bit like, you know, I wrote this piece

657
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 4: for Conde Nash Traveler that came on Valentine's Day, and

658
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 4: they were like, oh, we want you to write about

659
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 4: like love and travel and you know, like any experiences

660
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 4: we had abroad.

661
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 2: And I spoke about.

662
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 4: Like being in Brazil and meeting this American guy and

663
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 4: he was like so lovely and we went on a

664
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 4: day and we got along so well, and I was

665
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 4: like Oh my god, I actually really like this guy.

666
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 4: So I un followed him from everything, and I goes

667
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 4: to him for like more because I just cannot. I

668
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 4: just can't deal with any of those emotions. But do

669
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 4: you know I did then reach out to him, and

670
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 4: he was like that was so crazy that he goes

671
00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 4: to me, and I was like, I know, and then

672
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 4: we like we went he flew me out to so

673
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 4: we went to the sea the Lordlines together and it

674
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 4: was so lovely. But I think that because there was

675
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 4: like six thousand miles between us, I was like, this

676
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 4: is doable. But I'm trying to learn how to engage

677
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 4: with that part of myself and be better. And that's

678
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 4: like what I'm doing in therapy, and I'm trying to

679
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 4: be like believe in love, like I'm I'm trying to

680
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 4: light that spark in me for sure, And I think

681
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 4: being in therapy helps me to like balance that it's

682
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 4: just so hard. I just read so much and I'm

683
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 4: like this is crazy, Like loving a man is crazy work,

684
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 4: what the hell? But I think people keep doing it

685
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 4: for some reason, so there must be some merit to it.

686
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 4: And I think, yeah, I think it just working on

687
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 4: what makes me feel really weird about this stuff and

688
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 4: learning how to like be better about it. I think

689
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 4: is helping me somewhat, But it is a journey. Like, God,

690
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 4: bless my therapist. Like I am so irritating, but she endures.

691
00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 4: She endures every time.

692
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 1: I'm sure she enjoys working with you through these things, right,

693
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:04,080
Speaker 1: that's kind of the thing we signed up for.

694
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 3: There.

695
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 2: Oh, I love her.

696
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 1: So it sounds like there have been a couple of

697
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 1: maybe spin off pieces and kind of follow ups to

698
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 1: the original piece. But if you were to like write

699
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 1: this article for the first time now in twenty twenty six.

700
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 3: How do you think it would be different?

701
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 2: Oh? I would be worse. Sorry, I was way too

702
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 2: polite in that piece. I was trying to respect the

703
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 2: sensibilities of people, sensibilities to be one, trying to be

704
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 2: quite down the middle.

705
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 4: And nah, because I tried to do that, and you're

706
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 4: not still written to me a new one.

707
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 2: So do you know what if I had to write

708
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,240
Speaker 2: this piece again, Oh, I would be worse. Oh you

709
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 2: guys saw that piece was bad. I'm going to show

710
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 2: you what's bad for real, because it was just like, this.

711
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 4: Is the most mild, tame piece ever, like and the

712
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 4: literature that I was reading around this piece. I read

713
00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:01,400
Speaker 4: Jane Wore The Tragedy of Head Sexuality banging book so fierce,

714
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 4: and she's a queer woman, and she kind of talks about, Oh,

715
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 4: I'm on the outside of straight this this is what

716
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:09,319
Speaker 4: it looks like to me. You guys are insane, And

717
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 4: I was thinking, imagine, if I wrote one percent of

718
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 4: that energy in this article, you would have burned me

719
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:17,320
Speaker 4: at the stake. I mean, you already called me a witch,

720
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 4: so we were nearly there.

721
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:20,839
Speaker 2: But it was just like, I feel like I could

722
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 2: have been punchier of for sure, before sure.

723
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:26,239
Speaker 4: If the piece would have been longer, you know, when

724
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 4: you write viewpoints for Vogue, it's only eight hundred and

725
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 4: fifty words, it's not even long. I would have made

726
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:34,759
Speaker 4: it so much longer. I would have had a lot

727
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:38,759
Speaker 4: more interviews. I probably would have also spoken to therapists

728
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 4: as well. Obviously I just collected the views of women

729
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 4: and I did a lot of reading around theory, but

730
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 4: I would have definitely loved to got the voice of

731
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 4: a therapist in that piece, to just to get their

732
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:51,800
Speaker 4: perspective on how social media has changed the way that

733
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,400
Speaker 4: we do relationships and so yeah, I think.

734
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 2: It would have been longer. It would have been like

735
00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:57,879
Speaker 2: a longer feature for sure.

736
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 1: In one of the pieces that I really appreciated you

737
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 1: introducing in that article was the boyfriendly and piece from

738
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:07,719
Speaker 1: the tale that you still substick are the sociologists for

739
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:11,360
Speaker 1: people who may not be familiar with their theory around boyfriendly,

740
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 1: can you.

741
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 3: Say a little bit more about that.

742
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:14,360
Speaker 2: It's just the kind of.

743
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:20,360
Speaker 4: About women online creating a lot of content or creating

744
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 4: their entire online personas being about their boyfriend. And it's

745
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 4: like boyfriend land is just this wild and rich people

746
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:27,880
Speaker 4: are like my boyfriend.

747
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 2: My boyfriend, my boyfriend, my mom, my mom, my mom,

748
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 2: and my man.

749
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 4: And it's like that's that you're just scrolling and you're

750
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 4: just hearing it all the time, and it is just

751
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 4: completely irritating. And then on top of it, it's like

752
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:40,799
Speaker 4: men are not doing like my girlfriend, my girlf and

753
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,320
Speaker 4: my girlfriend content in the same way. Like there isn't

754
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 4: as much I guess, like clout or desire or want

755
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 4: to brand your relationship with your girlfriend or the fact

756
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,840
Speaker 4: that you are a boyfriend with the same vigor, Like

757
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 4: there's no demand for it, and so it's kind of

758
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:01,440
Speaker 4: about looking into why that is and what does it

759
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 4: mean and how are we kind of even in this

760
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 4: age of being incredibly online and having access and being

761
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 4: able to see so much like we still fall prey

762
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:14,240
Speaker 4: to the same kind of tired tropes of the wife

763
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 4: of the girlfriend, and it kind of just yeah, consumes

764
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:20,440
Speaker 4: online identity, and it makes content really bland and staged

765
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:23,799
Speaker 4: and boring and dull. And sometimes people it's not even

766
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 4: just boyfriends. Sometimes it's like my dad, my brother, like

767
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 4: just the my some man in my life, you know,

768
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 4: is always a theme on women's social media platforms as

769
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 4: part of women's social media identities, and it's just so

770
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:40,320
Speaker 4: so consuming.

771
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:51,880
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break. So you've already

772
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:53,759
Speaker 1: given us a couple, but I would love to hear

773
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 1: more about like some of the writers and thinkers that

774
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 1: you are reading and consuming that also feel like they're

775
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 1: in conversation with your work and have really helped you

776
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:02,560
Speaker 1: to kind of shape your perspective.

777
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:06,120
Speaker 4: Oh okay, So I've been reading a lot of Eva Loose.

778
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:10,360
Speaker 4: So she did the End of Love and Why Love Hurts,

779
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 4: And there was another book Consuming the Romantic, Consuming the

780
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 4: romantic Fantasy.

781
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 2: I think it was another book.

782
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 4: She wrote that I was reading Monachelette in Defense of Witches,

783
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 4: but yeah, Jane Ward's Tragedy of heir Sexuality another brilliant

784
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:29,400
Speaker 4: book that I think really did give me the umph

785
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 4: to write this piece. Like it wasn't until I read

786
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 4: her book that I was like, Oh, this has opened

787
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 4: up a world for me. And then you know, then

788
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 4: I read Compulsory Head Sexuality by Adrian Rich and I

789
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 4: was like, it just my mind opened up and I

790
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,840
Speaker 4: was like, I'm just completely obsessed with all of these.

791
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 2: Writers and what they have to say because I'd never.

792
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:50,879
Speaker 4: Really thought about straight relationships in a particularly critical way.

793
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:53,000
Speaker 4: I was just always like, this is something that we

794
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 4: just have to do, and I never felt like I

795
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:57,799
Speaker 4: should question, like, why is this a norm? Why do

796
00:37:57,840 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 4: we feel like they in what ways are our societies

797
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 4: built to sustain and support these types of relationships above

798
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:08,840
Speaker 4: all others? Into the conversations, oh letter Hong Fincher. She

799
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:12,239
Speaker 4: wrote Leftover Women about like the women in China who,

800
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:15,759
Speaker 4: after they're like twenty five, if they're not married or

801
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:17,799
Speaker 4: or they don't have kids, the government brands them as

802
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:21,240
Speaker 4: leftover women and basically just ran an entire media campaign

803
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 4: to scold them into getting married, which was just really

804
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:28,800
Speaker 4: really wild. And then sarah La had a lot of

805
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 4: her studies around singleness A table for one brilliant book.

806
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've just been.

807
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:38,399
Speaker 4: Like deep in that world, like really understanding what does

808
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,280
Speaker 4: it mean to be a woman in a relationship, aspiring

809
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:43,360
Speaker 4: to be in a relationship, not in a relationship, Like

810
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 4: how did these things change how you're viewed and your identity? Sorry, yeah,

811
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:49,279
Speaker 4: I'm just like going on.

812
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:52,320
Speaker 3: No, yeah, I'm like, oh, this is a long reading this.

813
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, gosh, I'm obsessed because we just don't I

814
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 4: just think not to go on a tangent, but sometimes

815
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:06,919
Speaker 4: I think about singleness as an identity being seen as

816
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 4: this sort of like deficit state, this sort of like aberration.

817
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:13,400
Speaker 2: We don't know where to put you, we don't know

818
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 2: what to do with you.

819
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:16,960
Speaker 4: You're not fulfilling your purpose, you're not fulfilling the role

820
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 4: that is prescribed to you from the day that you're born,

821
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:20,719
Speaker 4: and it kind of.

822
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 2: Can just throw you into this spiral.

823
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:26,279
Speaker 4: And I'm always online, I'm always on TikTok, and I've

824
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 4: always seen these videos of like women like late twenties,

825
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:33,840
Speaker 4: early thirties in floods of tears, crying. I've never had

826
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 4: a boyfriend before, I've never had a partner. I want

827
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 4: to have kids. I want this thing, and it's not

828
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 4: happening for me. I've done all the work. I go

829
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:42,360
Speaker 4: to therapy, I go to the gym, I have a

830
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:43,840
Speaker 4: good job, I take care of my family.

831
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:45,359
Speaker 2: I volunteer, I did And.

832
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 4: They're listing of all the things they're doing and they're like,

833
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:51,400
Speaker 4: I still can't find anyone da and like the pain

834
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:55,960
Speaker 4: that they feel is like this visceral, deep pain, this loneliness,

835
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 4: this feeling of I'm not good enough.

836
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:00,359
Speaker 2: And I used to see this stuff and you would

837
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:01,240
Speaker 2: always seen the comments.

838
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:03,880
Speaker 4: People would be like, you just need to love yourself,

839
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 4: like you just need to like say affirmations every day.

840
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 2: And I'm like, I think is deeper than that.

841
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:14,800
Speaker 4: I think on a societal level, how we render single

842
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 4: women is doing something to our psyche that is making

843
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:22,319
Speaker 4: us that sad. I don't think it's just because you

844
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:24,759
Speaker 4: have low self esteem or you don't love yourself or

845
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 4: you don't do this like. There are other forces at

846
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:31,399
Speaker 4: play that create a world that feels unbearable for some

847
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 4: single women. That just leads to these emotional outbursts like

848
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 4: and so I just, yeah, I'm just so obsessed with

849
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:41,920
Speaker 4: understanding that better. And part of that is being able

850
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:47,320
Speaker 4: to get women to just demystify the heterosexual romantic fantasy

851
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 4: and just feel like so much of what you feel

852
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 4: like you're lacking is stuff in your imagination, like it's

853
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:56,279
Speaker 4: not even necessarily real. But also it's about understanding the

854
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 4: forces that make you feel the way you do. And

855
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:01,799
Speaker 4: part of that is just the way we have prioritized

856
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:05,200
Speaker 4: coupled them in society. And like, not that I'm like, oh,

857
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 4: we should hate relationships, but I just think we need

858
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 4: to be more realistic about them. The idealized view we

859
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:14,760
Speaker 4: have of relationships is designed to make us feel bad

860
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:15,760
Speaker 4: if we're a single.

861
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 2: So how about we start to change the narrative a

862
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:19,160
Speaker 2: little bit.

863
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 4: And you know, these writers have been so instrumental in

864
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 4: me understanding that.

865
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:26,640
Speaker 2: And then there was when I spoke about the cultural lag.

866
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 4: There's like a piece of study called like Caught in

867
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:32,120
Speaker 4: the Cultural Lag, and it was about a study for

868
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:36,760
Speaker 4: therapists basically trying to get therapists to talk to their older,

869
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 4: single female clients in ways that wouldn't like trigger them

870
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:41,880
Speaker 4: even more and they kind of studied all of these

871
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:44,840
Speaker 4: single women and how they felt about their identities and

872
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 4: the things that came up, the rhetorics that they would

873
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 4: turn to in order to self sue, but in order

874
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:52,840
Speaker 4: to explain away their singleness, And it was basically about like, okay,

875
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 4: so how do you talk to people in this way?

876
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 2: And that was like a really really helpful piece for

877
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 2: me as well.

878
00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 4: But yeah, I think there is some sort of I

879
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 4: don't think it's gonna fix all your problems, but there

880
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:06,560
Speaker 4: is definitely a healing and really understanding singleness as an

881
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 4: identity and how it's constructed that I think would give

882
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:13,200
Speaker 4: people a lot of I guess peace around their situations

883
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:16,440
Speaker 4: because you know, it's not you, like you're not this

884
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:20,120
Speaker 4: fundamentally unlovable and broken person, but like the world just

885
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:21,759
Speaker 4: makes you feel like that sometimes.

886
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:25,399
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, I really appreciate you naming there, because

887
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 1: I do think there are so many forces that kind

888
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:31,480
Speaker 1: of come together, like the church, like you talked about, right,

889
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:35,319
Speaker 1: like our framing and our socializing around like coupled them

890
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:37,799
Speaker 1: being like the peak, like it is the thing that

891
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:40,479
Speaker 1: we are working toward. And when you think about any

892
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 1: other thing in your life, like there are steps to follow.

893
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 1: If you do these things, you are relatively assured success,

894
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 1: right going to school, buying a house or that's precarious,

895
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:53,400
Speaker 1: but there are steps to follow for most things. And

896
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:56,600
Speaker 1: I think partnership, I think we don't give enough credit

897
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:58,759
Speaker 1: for how much of it is just look and like

898
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:00,799
Speaker 1: being in the right place of the time, and like

899
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 1: personalities like and so there's this sense of like I

900
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:07,280
Speaker 1: can't work hard enough that makes not finding a partner

901
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:09,920
Speaker 1: and not having a partnership feel like a personal failure

902
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:12,560
Speaker 1: as opposed to all these other things that need to

903
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:15,359
Speaker 1: line up for that to actually happen in a healthy way.

904
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 2: M h, it's crazy. And even other aspects of your life, right,

905
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 2: I know in the US, like it's a bit crazy,

906
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 2: but like you would have like programs that would help

907
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 2: people from like you know, underrepresented backgrounds get into specific places.

908
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:31,759
Speaker 2: Like even in these things that you.

909
00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:34,440
Speaker 4: Can work towards, if you are a specific kind of

910
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 4: person or you're in a specific kind of situation, there

911
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 4: are things set up to age you. And that that

912
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 4: doesn't exist when it comes to like finding love, it

913
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:44,960
Speaker 4: is like a free for all and it's just the

914
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:45,920
Speaker 4: wild wild West.

915
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:49,239
Speaker 1: Mm so I think the other thing that is likely

916
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 1: going to be the aftermath of this piece is that

917
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 1: other people will want to write and say like, oh,

918
00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:58,000
Speaker 1: I'm also interested in kind of cultural criticism and kind

919
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:01,400
Speaker 1: of thinking through things. For people who are be aspiring writers,

920
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:03,759
Speaker 1: what kinds of things or what advice would you have

921
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 1: for them, and what kinds of things do you feel

922
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 1: like they should be noticing to do this?

923
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 3: Will?

924
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:09,520
Speaker 2: Do you know what?

925
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:10,240
Speaker 3: Read?

926
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:12,880
Speaker 4: Read, read, read, read, take in, take and take in.

927
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 4: But I think most importantly have conversations with people you

928
00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:20,560
Speaker 4: know well, people you don't know well. Get opinions. What

929
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:22,839
Speaker 4: are people thinking about, what are they talking about? What's

930
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:25,759
Speaker 4: interesting them. I think it's so easy to kind of

931
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 4: see a trend popping off online and then be like, oh,

932
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,399
Speaker 4: I don't worry about this trend. But it's like what

933
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:35,320
Speaker 4: extra layer can you add to it? What can you

934
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 4: use to help strengthen your argument, your reasoning, your theory.

935
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:42,879
Speaker 4: Like I love like reading academics. Whenever I have an

936
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:45,879
Speaker 4: idea about something, I'm like on Google scholar, what has

937
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:48,840
Speaker 4: been researched, what have people said? What interesting studies are

938
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:51,560
Speaker 4: they exploring? Like how can this help to you know,

939
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:54,640
Speaker 4: dispel or to prove this thing I'm seeing, and then

940
00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:57,040
Speaker 4: who else can I talk to who's had real life experience,

941
00:44:57,120 --> 00:44:59,279
Speaker 4: who would share their story with me. I think a

942
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:01,279
Speaker 4: lot of it is like having loads and loads of

943
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 4: loads of conversations and not being so sort of insular,

944
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:05,839
Speaker 4: and when you feel like you have a really good

945
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:08,440
Speaker 4: idea of something, then just putting it out there, whether

946
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:11,120
Speaker 4: you are on sub stack or whether you're on Medium,

947
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 4: or if you're just like pitching to different platforms or

948
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:17,080
Speaker 4: even newsletters, like find different ways for you to get

949
00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 4: your words out there. But like I think, be super

950
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 4: curious in the world around you. Na sure, I know

951
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:23,960
Speaker 4: it can be very hard. You know, we will work

952
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 4: from home now and people can be quite sailed up

953
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:29,439
Speaker 4: and isolated. But as much as you can just get

954
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:32,000
Speaker 4: in front of people, what are they talking about, what

955
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 4: do they care about? What are they noticing? Do you

956
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:35,799
Speaker 4: notice it too? Do you have an opinion on that?

957
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 4: I think that is the best way to kind of

958
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:41,520
Speaker 4: come up with some fun, interesting, compelling ideas to share.

959
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:44,320
Speaker 1: And so I also would love to hear more about

960
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:46,239
Speaker 1: the book that we mentioned that you have a book

961
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:48,479
Speaker 1: coming out later this year. Tell us about the book

962
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:50,240
Speaker 1: that we can we expect Yeah.

963
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:54,320
Speaker 4: So the book is called Picky, is coming out in September,

964
00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:57,160
Speaker 4: and it's basically kind of a lot of what we've

965
00:45:57,239 --> 00:46:01,839
Speaker 4: discussed today, This idea of single women being like penalized

966
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:05,600
Speaker 4: so much for their singleness and being made to be

967
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,879
Speaker 4: the scapegoat for a lot of like social ills, and.

968
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:10,839
Speaker 2: How this is something that happens repeatedly.

969
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:13,279
Speaker 4: And if you're a single woman, it's like, you know,

970
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:16,920
Speaker 4: you're too picky, you have unrealistic expectations, you need to

971
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:19,360
Speaker 4: work on yourself. You're not looking hard enough, you're looking

972
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:21,839
Speaker 4: too much, you're too desperate, you don't want it enough.

973
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:23,040
Speaker 2: Like, there are so.

974
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 4: Many ways that we kind of like start to pathologize

975
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:29,000
Speaker 4: just how single women are. And Peaky kind of seeks

976
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 4: to explain where all of that comes from, explain the

977
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:35,879
Speaker 4: mechanisms through which women are demonized for their singleness, and

978
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:40,920
Speaker 4: tries to provide a way out of that conditioning. But

979
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:44,239
Speaker 4: it also acknowledges that these are huge forces that are

980
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 4: baked into our legislatures, baked into our legal systems, baked

981
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:51,359
Speaker 4: in policy, into politics. You know, there's so much and

982
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 4: what we're experiencing now is not particularly unique. Every single

983
00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:58,760
Speaker 4: week we're seeing these stories about the birth rates falling

984
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 4: a fertility rates for you know, replacement rates, and it

985
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:05,359
Speaker 4: always falls at the foot of women. And you know,

986
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:08,440
Speaker 4: recently in France, they're sending a letter out to all

987
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:11,440
Speaker 4: twenty nine year olds to remind them to have children

988
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 4: before it's too late. And they were like, you know,

989
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:15,680
Speaker 4: we're sending this to men and women, so it's not

990
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:17,440
Speaker 4: a big deal. But the only reason why they choose

991
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:20,960
Speaker 4: twenty nine is because between like from twenty nine to thirty,

992
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:24,280
Speaker 4: I think the government will pay for women to have

993
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:27,319
Speaker 4: like any sort of fertility treatment that they want to have,

994
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:30,600
Speaker 4: and so they're like trying to get into them early.

995
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:31,799
Speaker 2: And the whole idea of it.

996
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:33,760
Speaker 4: Being too late is something that we only ever apply

997
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:36,400
Speaker 4: to women. And so we're kind of seeing the way

998
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:39,320
Speaker 4: that this sort of like collective panic of like lonely

999
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 4: single men is becoming like women's fault. And because of that,

1000
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:46,120
Speaker 4: I think the sort of cultural pressure for women to

1001
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:48,120
Speaker 4: couple up is getting worse and worse and worse, and

1002
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:51,399
Speaker 4: so the despair of being single is also getting worse

1003
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:53,800
Speaker 4: and worse and worse. And so it seeks to explain

1004
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 4: all of that just to provide some sort of levity,

1005
00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 4: I think to single women particularly, But yeah, it's been

1006
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:00,800
Speaker 4: like mind blowing.

1007
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:01,320
Speaker 2: Obviously.

1008
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:04,120
Speaker 4: I love reading, I love having ideas and thoughts and

1009
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 4: opinions and feelings, and I'm just learning so much. I'm

1010
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:10,760
Speaker 4: looking across cultures, I'm looking across time, and I'm like, oh,

1011
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:11,839
Speaker 4: there are things that are.

1012
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:14,120
Speaker 2: Repeating here, and there are waves.

1013
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:16,360
Speaker 4: And there are cultural experiences that we're all having and

1014
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 4: none of this stuff is new. And so it's just

1015
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:20,760
Speaker 4: been like so much fun to write.

1016
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:24,359
Speaker 1: If there was one piece of advice that you could

1017
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:27,959
Speaker 1: give to your eighteen year old silf, what would it be, Oh.

1018
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:30,400
Speaker 2: God, oh god, eighteen year old Shande.

1019
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:36,440
Speaker 4: I would say to her that doing less is more

1020
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 4: and she doesn't have to prove herself to anyone, like

1021
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 4: she is incredible as she is, So focus on what

1022
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:48,560
Speaker 4: it is she likes doing, and do that and it

1023
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:51,040
Speaker 4: doesn't matter if other people find it impressive. It doesn't

1024
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:53,480
Speaker 4: matter if other people find it interesting. What matters is

1025
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:55,480
Speaker 4: that it makes you feel.

1026
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:56,360
Speaker 2: Good about yourself.

1027
00:48:56,480 --> 00:49:01,359
Speaker 3: So cut out all the noise a bit, and where

1028
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 3: can we stay connected with you? Chante? I know people

1029
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:05,439
Speaker 3: will want to read the book when it comes out

1030
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:06,880
Speaker 3: and read more of your writing.

1031
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:09,439
Speaker 1: What is your website in any social media channels you'd

1032
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:10,720
Speaker 1: like to share you So, yeah.

1033
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:15,240
Speaker 4: I'm just across all social media at chante j and

1034
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:17,719
Speaker 4: i run an event series in London if any of

1035
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:21,160
Speaker 4: your listeners are ever here, called Strangers in the City,

1036
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:23,760
Speaker 4: and it is an event series where everyone comes solo

1037
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:28,319
Speaker 4: and you basically participate in some sort of activity. So

1038
00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:32,520
Speaker 4: we've done you know, jiu jitsu, improv, We've done like

1039
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:36,640
Speaker 4: samba ring making, We've done quizzes, we've done candle making,

1040
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:39,000
Speaker 4: we do all sorts of stuff all around London.

1041
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:40,080
Speaker 2: Everyone comes alone.

1042
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:42,440
Speaker 4: You can only buy one ticket and redesign this space

1043
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:44,880
Speaker 4: so you can make friends. So you can come and

1044
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:46,640
Speaker 4: find me at a Strange in the City event. I'm

1045
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:48,960
Speaker 4: always there, always hosting, running it with my best friend's

1046
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:51,080
Speaker 4: a lab or you can just like follow me at

1047
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:53,839
Speaker 4: chante j across all social media platforms.

1048
00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:56,360
Speaker 1: Well, then that sounds like a very cool idea. We

1049
00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:58,439
Speaker 1: will be sure to include all of there in the show. NOL,

1050
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:00,440
Speaker 1: thank you so much for spending some time with today.

1051
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:01,359
Speaker 1: I appreciate it.

1052
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:02,799
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.

1053
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:09,080
Speaker 1: I'm so glad Chantey was able to join us for

1054
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:12,160
Speaker 1: Today's Conversation, so learn more about her and her work.

1055
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:14,239
Speaker 1: Be sure to visit the show notes at Therapy for

1056
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:17,919
Speaker 1: Blackgirls dot com slash Session four fifty two, and don't

1057
00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 1: forget to text this episode to two of your girls

1058
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:22,879
Speaker 1: right now and tell them to check it out. Did

1059
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:24,600
Speaker 1: you know that you could leave us a voicemail with

1060
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:27,920
Speaker 1: your questions or suggestions for the podcast. If you have

1061
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:30,760
Speaker 1: topics you think we should discuss, drop us a message

1062
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:33,279
Speaker 1: at Memo dot fm slash Therapy for Black Girls and

1063
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:35,480
Speaker 1: let us know what's on your mind. We just might

1064
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:38,640
Speaker 1: feature it on the podcast. If you're looking for a

1065
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:41,840
Speaker 1: therapist in your area, visit our therapist directory at Therapy

1066
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:45,640
Speaker 1: for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. Don't forget to follow

1067
00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:48,600
Speaker 1: us on Instagram at Therapy for Black Girls and come

1068
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 1: on over and join us in our Patreon for exclusive updates,

1069
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:54,600
Speaker 1: behind the scenes content and much more. We can't wait

1070
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:57,120
Speaker 1: to see you there. You can join us at community

1071
00:50:57,200 --> 00:51:00,719
Speaker 1: dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This This episode was

1072
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:05,040
Speaker 1: produced by Alice Ellis, Indechubu and Tyree Rush. Editing was

1073
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:08,000
Speaker 1: done by Dennis and Bradford. Thank y'all so much for

1074
00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:11,080
Speaker 1: joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing

1075
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:19,759
Speaker 1: this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care,