1 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:12,120 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Invention. My name is Robert lamp and 2 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:15,200 Speaker 1: I'm Joe McCormick. All right, today's episode, we're gonna be 3 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 1: talking about board games. So the most obvious place to 4 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: start here is, Joe, what about you? What are what 5 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 1: is your favorite board game? Or what are what board 6 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 1: games are you most nostalgic for? Well, uh, to have 7 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: a very conventional answer. I have a lot of fun 8 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:33,600 Speaker 1: memories of playing Monopoly as a child, but I was 9 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: just thinking about how the board games I got most 10 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:40,840 Speaker 1: excited about as a kid really had no staying power whatsoever. 11 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:43,520 Speaker 1: They weren't games that people would still be talking about 12 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 1: or still playing really much twenty years later. I was 13 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 1: very interested in games that had a lot of complicated 14 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: physical apparatus, like I remember seeing the commercials for mouse Trap. 15 00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 1: I think the game was that had all these traps 16 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 1: that would fall down on years, and I was really 17 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: into that, though I don't know if I ever actually 18 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:04,960 Speaker 1: played it. It was a lot to set up in 19 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 1: mouse Trap, but more recent versions of mouse Trap, by 20 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 1: the Way, have simplified the set up a lot easier 21 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 1: to play. The game itself is still pretty basic, but 22 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 1: at least it's not this just box of junk that 23 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:18,960 Speaker 1: has to be assembled. Well. Another example I remember being 24 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:22,319 Speaker 1: super excited about but never actually playing, was I took 25 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:24,919 Speaker 1: a class when I took I was in a class 26 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 1: when I was in elementary school's computer class, and it 27 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 1: was one of those cases where they tried to make 28 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:32,320 Speaker 1: it cool by gamifying the class. So if you did 29 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:34,319 Speaker 1: good things in the class, you get points and you 30 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: could spend those on prizes like it's Chucky cheese or something, 31 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:40,479 Speaker 1: you know, get a switchblade comb but that I never 32 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 1: got enough points to get this one prize, but I 33 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 1: always I did, and every time we went into the 34 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: room and it was a it was a board game 35 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: called the Omega Virus, and I just had, like with 36 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: my wildest fantasies were about how cool this game was 37 00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 1: because it seemed like it involved a talking robot on 38 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 1: the board, and I think the premise was like you're 39 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 1: on a space station and an evil computer virus takes 40 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 1: it over and you like go to spaces with your 41 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:09,640 Speaker 1: little figuring. You have to press the robot and it 42 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: talks at you. It's like, you know, infection spreads and stuff. Um, 43 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 1: I can't be sure because I haven't played it. But 44 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: I I'm almost positive this game must be terrible, like 45 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:24,520 Speaker 1: not very fun, not very replayable. But I just sucked 46 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 1: in by that that fluff component, just that this like 47 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 1: machine that comes with it that you interact with. And 48 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 1: I'm sure I would have been suckered in the same 49 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: way by those horrible looking board games that have like 50 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: VHS tapes that would accompany them. As has been documented 51 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:42,080 Speaker 1: on everything is terrible, like that Star Trek board game 52 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: that has a the guy who keeps saying experience beach. Yeah, 53 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 1: so you mentioned the fluff. We should go ahead and 54 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 1: h and describe this for everyone who may not be 55 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 1: familiar when when we when we talk about board games 56 00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: and just gaming in general. Uh, generally there is a 57 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:02,639 Speaker 1: distinct between fluff and mechanics, and I would add that 58 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: there is an additional um part of this trifecta, that 59 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 1: being materials. So, for instance, the pure mechanics of a 60 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 1: game are just the rules of the game, how things move, 61 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:18,919 Speaker 1: how points are acquired, and how a winner or winners 62 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: is determined. So like if someone's play testing a game 63 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 1: that they've developed, it may have very little or even 64 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:28,520 Speaker 1: no fluff. It could just be a system of numbers, 65 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 1: the kind kind of game that would would just totally 66 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:34,640 Speaker 1: not appeal to someone like me, like I like, I 67 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 1: like a hefty, hefty dose of good fluff, fluff being 68 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 1: the story, the character is the setting, Like, oh, I'm 69 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 1: moving pieces around on the board. What are they? Oh? 70 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 1: They it's a king and a queen and an army 71 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 1: and some guy's riding horses. Okay, now you're talking fluff. 72 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 1: An example of a game I think with no fluff 73 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 1: is like go. It is just tiles with rules or not. 74 00:03:56,680 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: You know, pieces on a board with rules, and there's 75 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: no imagery. There's no story there. You know that all 76 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 1: that's gone. Maybe you could apply things like that to it, 77 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 1: and maybe people have in some cases for all I know. 78 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 1: But the Bear game itself is the draw is just 79 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 1: the mechanics. Then you've got all these other games I 80 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 1: think of, like candy Land and the Game of Life, 81 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 1: where really what's attractive about the game is like the 82 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 1: illustrations on the board and the idea of what your character, 83 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 1: the story of what your characters are doing as you, 84 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 1: you know, spin a wheel or roll dice and advance 85 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:31,039 Speaker 1: along spaces. Yeah. So so the fluff and candy Land 86 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 1: is really good. But also the material, you know, it 87 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 1: has a has a neat looking board. Also, I think 88 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 1: it wasn't Life, the one that had the pophumatic bubble. 89 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:39,599 Speaker 1: That being a bit maybe I'm thinking of another game. 90 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 1: I think you are. I think Life has a spinning 91 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 1: wheel like the Wheel of Fortune, because you know, it's Life. 92 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 1: So there was some other game. I'm sure listeners will 93 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: will will clue us in here had the papoumatic bubble. 94 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 1: You know, it had this material aspect of the game 95 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: where you're like, that looks so fun. I just want 96 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:55,600 Speaker 1: to press that thing all day and play this game, 97 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 1: even though it might suck. Um. Like one example from 98 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 1: my childhood, I remember being a super board with Monopoly. 99 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 1: I hate Monopoly the passion, but I do remember loving 100 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 1: Fireball Island like that was. That was this game. For 101 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:13,280 Speaker 1: anyone who hasn't played it or or seen that it's 102 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 1: been it's actually been reissued. There was like a Kickstarter 103 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:20,160 Speaker 1: for it. It's this game with tremendous material and fluff features. 104 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 1: It is a it's like a three D topographic island 105 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: and there is a monster head um temple at the 106 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:30,039 Speaker 1: top of a volcano in the center that shoots out 107 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 1: marbles at certain times in the game to knock your 108 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 1: player back down the mountain, and so it's just you know, 109 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:40,239 Speaker 1: it had a great ad campaign, but it was clearly 110 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 1: the game itself is not that complicated and probably not 111 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 1: that good. I haven't played it since I was a kid, 112 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 1: but but clearly it was leaning very heavily on material 113 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 1: and fluff. But this makes board games an interesting thing 114 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:54,839 Speaker 1: to discuss in the context of invention, because board games 115 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:58,479 Speaker 1: are not the only, not the only thing we use 116 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,599 Speaker 1: that has appeal on both the material or not the 117 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: both the mechanical side and the fluff side. I mean 118 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: lots of inventions. Uh, the success of them depends on both. 119 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 1: Some things become very popular because they are inherently very 120 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 1: useful in their most basic functional sense, and other things 121 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: become popular just because there's something esthetically cool about them. 122 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:24,039 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, um. Like, Like, another game that instantly comes 123 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:26,720 Speaker 1: to my mind is Space Hulk, which was a game 124 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:29,359 Speaker 1: that that I saw advertisements for as a kid, and 125 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 1: I wanted just because the the Warhammer forty thousand fluff 126 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 1: to it was so good. You know, it's like these 127 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: space soldiers and armor fighting xenomorph like Aliens, the tyranned 128 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 1: gene Steelers, and so I was instantly in. I was 129 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 1: instantly sold by the fluff, the the figurines look great. 130 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 1: So I was sold by the material and later when 131 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: I actually got to play it, it's a fine game 132 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 1: as well. So all three of these things can line up, 133 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:56,159 Speaker 1: and when they do, you often have a game that 134 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 1: stands the test of time. But the curious thing about 135 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:02,039 Speaker 1: time in board games is you can look at something 136 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 1: like Monopoly, or you can look at a game like 137 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:09,040 Speaker 1: Space Hulk, and if you strip them down, there's nothing 138 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: about this game that could not exist thirty years ago, 139 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 1: a hundred years ago, a thousand years ago, because you're 140 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 1: ultimately just moving pieces around, like the fluff can change, 141 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: you know, it's just like what is space? So it's 142 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:27,679 Speaker 1: it's people in monsters and people have been battling monsters 143 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: in human myth uh for in a sense time out 144 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 1: of mind. Uh. There's nothing about about most of these 145 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: games when you strip them down that can't exist in 146 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 1: another age. But they but they didn't. There's this there's 147 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 1: still this evolution of of the mechanics of games, the 148 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 1: way we play games and the sort of games we play. Yes, 149 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 1: that is really interesting the way that you know it 150 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 1: can seem like, how how did it take thousands of 151 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:54,679 Speaker 1: years for this game to be invented? But then again, 152 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 1: almost all board games are you could probably say, derivative 153 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 1: of forms of other board games that previously existed. I mean, 154 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 1: there are a few basic types. There's like the type 155 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 1: where you try to reach a space on a board 156 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 1: before everyone else does, or the type where you try 157 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 1: to accumulate the most of a certain type of token 158 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 1: or you know, money, type of currency. Uh, and then 159 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: there's the kind where you have armies that battle each 160 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 1: other until the other one is eliminated. So while we 161 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 1: keep coming up with new games that have never existed before, 162 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 1: almost all the games we come up with are in 163 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 1: some way that they've got ancestors in terms of their 164 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 1: basic format and play style. Absolutely, so you could take 165 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 1: various modern games take them back in time, and not 166 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 1: only would would would even ancient people recognize it as 167 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:45,719 Speaker 1: a game. They would probably they might even be able 168 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 1: to say, oh, well, that's that's that's kind of like 169 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:49,680 Speaker 1: this game that we play. It's kind of like a 170 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 1: it's a racing game, or it's a fighting game, etcetera. 171 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: Of course, board games are not something that is found 172 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 1: in nature. They are a product of human civilization, so 173 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 1: they had to be invented at some point. And that's 174 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 1: what we're gonna be looking at today. What is a 175 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: board game, what does it mean, how is it invented? 176 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 1: And what role does it play for us? Now, before 177 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:11,679 Speaker 1: we explore the the invention and the role of board 178 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:14,559 Speaker 1: games in human culture, we usually like to ask the 179 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 1: question about an invention, what came before it? Right? That 180 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,320 Speaker 1: helps you understand what it actually is. And so I 181 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 1: was trying to think what came before the board game. 182 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 1: It's not like, you know, there was a there was 183 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:28,080 Speaker 1: a pre board game board game that we know about, 184 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 1: so it wasn't quite like that. But one thing we 185 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: can be very sure of is that before we had 186 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 1: board games, what do you do with a board game? 187 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: You play it. So before we had board games, we 188 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 1: had play That's right, if you look at a at 189 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 1: a board game or you know, in this whole episode, 190 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 1: you can also think a little outside of just board 191 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 1: game and think of games that maybe don't actually involve 192 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 1: a board or a play surface. What are they but 193 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 1: kind of a simulation of something in reality with lower stakes. 194 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 1: Usually uh, and that's something that can exist even without 195 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:02,559 Speaker 1: some sort of physic coal apparatus or materials. Right. And 196 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 1: certainly that's something we see animals do as well. Right, Well, 197 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:07,840 Speaker 1: I mean we certainly don't see animals play board games. 198 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: We do see them play yeah, yeah, we we see them, 199 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 1: let's say, play fighting where it's like they're fighting, but 200 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 1: they're not really fighting. The stakes are not the same, right, 201 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 1: And this is a really interesting psychological and biological question. 202 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 1: It's interesting to me. But also there's a whole field 203 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:26,319 Speaker 1: of study around the study of play. What is play? Exactly? 204 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 1: What is a game? It's one of those things. You know, 205 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 1: it's in the pornography category. We know when we see it. 206 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 1: But it's hard to set out a comprehensive definition of 207 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 1: what exactly play is, or what exactly a game is. 208 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:43,080 Speaker 1: In fact, the philosopher Ludvig Wittgenstein used the example of 209 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:46,840 Speaker 1: a game as his prime illustration of how not all 210 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 1: useful categories can be bounded by a fixed set of 211 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:54,959 Speaker 1: universal characteristics. You know, this is one of his philosophical principles, 212 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 1: like some concepts and categories instead operate on this principle 213 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:04,559 Speaker 1: that he called family resemblances. Quote a complicated network of similarities, 214 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:08,439 Speaker 1: overlapping and criss crossing. And to give a better example 215 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 1: of this, I want to quote from a section of 216 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 1: his book Philosophical Investigations that explains this thinking with with 217 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:18,559 Speaker 1: a few abridgements. So Wittgenstein Writ's quote. Consider, for example, 218 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 1: the proceedings that we call games, I mean board games, 219 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 1: card games, ball games, Olympic games, and so on. What 220 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 1: is common to them all? For if you look at them, 221 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 1: you will not see something that is common to all, 222 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 1: but similarities, relationships, and a whole series of them at that. Look, 223 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:40,080 Speaker 1: for example, at board games with their multifarious relationships. Now 224 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:43,320 Speaker 1: pass to card games. Here you find many correspondences with 225 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:46,200 Speaker 1: the first group, but many common features drop out and 226 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 1: others appear when we pass next to ball games. Much 227 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 1: that is common is retained, but much is lost. Are 228 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:57,440 Speaker 1: they all amusing? Compare chess with knots and crosses? Or 229 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 1: is there always winning and losing or competition between players? 230 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:04,680 Speaker 1: Think of patients. In ball games, there is winning and losing, 231 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 1: but when a child throws his ball at the wall 232 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 1: and catches it again, this feature has disappeared. Look at 233 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: the parts played by skill and luck at the difference 234 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,320 Speaker 1: between skill and chess and skill and tennis. I think 235 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 1: now of games like ring a ring of roses. I 236 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:22,199 Speaker 1: think that's like ring around the rosie. Uh. Here here 237 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: is the element of amusement. But how many other characteristic 238 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:28,679 Speaker 1: features have disappeared? And we can go through many many 239 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 1: other groups of games in the same way, can see 240 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 1: how similarities crop up and disappear. And the result of 241 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 1: this examination is we see a complicated network of similarities, 242 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 1: overlapping and criss crossing, sometimes overall similarities, sometimes similarities of detail. 243 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:48,440 Speaker 1: And I've always thought that's a really interesting observation that 244 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 1: we have these categories. Game is one of them. I 245 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 1: guess play would be another one where we can identify 246 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 1: it when we see it. We point out a thing 247 00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 1: and say that's a game or that is play, but 248 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 1: can't put together a comprehensive definition that includes everything that 249 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 1: is a game or everything that is play. Right, Yeah, yeah, 250 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 1: I love I love what he's said here because it 251 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 1: it makes me think, for instance, of something like like bowling, 252 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:17,559 Speaker 1: Like bowling is is this uh this activity that you know? 253 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:20,439 Speaker 1: Certainly one can make an argument for game, One can 254 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:23,839 Speaker 1: make a strong argument for sport, and I think there 255 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 1: are elements of the two, like bowling. To me, it 256 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 1: feels like an activity where the world of sport and 257 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:34,719 Speaker 1: game converge and perhaps cause a little bit of category confusion. 258 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 1: Wait do I detect from this? Are you staking out 259 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 1: of position that sports are not games? I'm I'm I'm 260 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 1: saying that the distinction kind of falls into what he's 261 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:45,439 Speaker 1: talking about here. You know, like you you look at 262 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 1: the baseball game, you look at a game of monopoly 263 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 1: or cards, and yeah, there are some things that line 264 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 1: up about them, and yet there is a distinctive difference 265 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 1: between the two. Yeah, it can be really difficult because 266 00:13:57,360 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: so if Witgenstein is right, we're faced with a problem 267 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 1: trying to say, organize a scientific study of the idea 268 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 1: of play or of games, because we want to understand 269 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 1: what play is and what role it plays, what games are, 270 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 1: and what purpose they serve. But we have trouble creating 271 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 1: like an airtight definition. There always seem to be some 272 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 1: examples of things that just don't quite fit the definition 273 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 1: you come up with. But we would still look at 274 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 1: those things and call them games or play. And yet 275 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:27,480 Speaker 1: for the purposes of research, it's important to have clear definition. 276 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 1: So a lot of what these researchers do is just 277 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 1: try to come up with the definition, and they can 278 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 1: end up feeling kind of, uh, I don't know what 279 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 1: the word is, kind of kind of multifarious and plotting 280 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 1: as far as definitions go, Like, they've got a lot 281 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 1: of clauses in them, but I want to read one 282 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 1: I came across that I feel like is a pretty 283 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 1: good biological definition of play. Might not get everything, but 284 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 1: it's one of the best I've read. And it was 285 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 1: set up by a University of Tennessee researcher named Gordon 286 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 1: Burghardt in the American Journal of Play in two thousand ten. 287 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 1: And this is this is his definition. Quote. Play is 288 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: repeated behavior that is incompletely functional in the context or 289 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 1: at the age in which it is performed, and is 290 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: initiated voluntarily when the animal or person is in a 291 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 1: relaxed or low stress setting. So that that that might 292 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 1: be kind of hard to wrap your brain around, but 293 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 1: I want to break out it's got like five parts there, 294 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 1: because already I'm thinking this applies to everything from hunting 295 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 1: to well, no, that's the part. Okay, So, so first 296 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: thing is that the behavior is not functional. It doesn't 297 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 1: contribute to current survival. So hunting wouldn't count unless you're 298 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 1: doing it recreation. I feel like a lot. I mean, 299 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 1: there are a lot of people who do it recreation. 300 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 1: There are a lot of people who certainly need to 301 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 1: hunt to some degree or certainly consume the the food 302 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: that they obtain through hunting. But anyway, I continue, Well, okay, 303 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 1: so you might in that case class recreational hunting in 304 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 1: fact as a form of play. Maybe it is, but 305 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 1: so it's at least in the animals who need to 306 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 1: hunt to survive. Hunting is not play because hunting is functional. 307 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 1: So play is not functional. Number Two, it's done for 308 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 1: its own sake. It's this is what we would call fun. 309 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 1: It's intrinsically motivating. Right. You don't have to do it 310 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 1: for some other reason. It is itself attractive to you 311 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 1: as an activity. Right. You're not expecting to obtain food 312 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 1: by it. You're not expecting to obtain a mate by it. Uh, 313 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 1: you were doing it just for the love of the game, right. 314 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 1: It pulls you in on its own power. Three, The 315 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 1: behavior is different from normal survival behaviors in at least 316 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 1: one respect. So something that is exactly the same as 317 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 1: things you do for survival, even if you're not currently 318 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 1: doing it for survival. That's probably not play right. Play 319 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 1: tends to, in Burghart's words, quote, it is incomplete generally 320 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 1: through inhibited or dropped final elements. Think about the way 321 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 1: like play fighting can like have the first parts of 322 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 1: a fight there, but don't actually go in for the 323 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 1: kill or anything. So gladiator competition play in some cases, 324 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 1: well that might be something up for debate. Yeah, but 325 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:15,200 Speaker 1: Burghart also points out exaggerated awkward or precocious movements um 326 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:19,679 Speaker 1: or behavior patterns with a modified form sequencing or targeting 327 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: um so like attack behaviors against a thing that would 328 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 1: not be normally a target of attack. I think about 329 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:30,399 Speaker 1: the way, like a dog will play with a ball 330 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 1: like it is a piece of prey that I don't 331 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:36,200 Speaker 1: think the dog actually thinks that the ball has meat 332 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 1: in it. It's playing with the ball, right, But it 333 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 1: does the same things to the ball roadly that it 334 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 1: would do to say, a rat that was in the house. Okay, 335 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 1: that's the third thing. Fourth thing, behavior is repeated. You 336 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:50,159 Speaker 1: know you can do it more than once. Uh. And 337 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 1: then fifth, it happens when stress is low and this 338 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 1: doesn't have to mean that there is no stress, but 339 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 1: it just means it's not something that happens while you're 340 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:02,400 Speaker 1: currently like be chase to buy a predator. And given 341 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 1: this kind of definition, again, I think we can probably 342 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 1: find ways that it might not perfectly fit what our 343 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:09,399 Speaker 1: intuitive ideas of play are. But I think that's a 344 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 1: really good place to start, um and and that sort 345 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:15,719 Speaker 1: of helps us think about what the roles of play 346 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 1: and games might be for biological organisms like us. All right, 347 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 1: on that note, we're going to take a quick break, 348 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 1: but we'll be right back, and we're back. One of 349 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:32,119 Speaker 1: the things, of course, we mentioned earlier, is that we 350 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: know play predates things like board games because play is 351 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:38,679 Speaker 1: present in non human animals. I mean, it's there, and 352 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 1: they're actually debates over how many animals it's present in, like, 353 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:46,119 Speaker 1: for example, it's extremely common among mammals. It seems almost 354 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 1: universal among mammals. Like people have generally seen the way 355 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:52,640 Speaker 1: dogs will chase and wrestle each other, the way kittens 356 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 1: stalk and pounce on each other and engage in various 357 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 1: forms of play. Fighting cats are I think, sometimes even 358 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 1: more playful than people give them credit for. Oh yeah, 359 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 1: especially to the indoor variety that are cut off from 360 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 1: their natural world and of course, you know, partially insane 361 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 1: because of what we've done to them. Uh, they're kind 362 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:11,879 Speaker 1: of in that permanent state of kiden hood. For instance, 363 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:15,439 Speaker 1: my cat um stalks and attacks my feet pretty much 364 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 1: every day, but does not seem to be doing it 365 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:22,439 Speaker 1: with intent to um maime and consume my feet. No, 366 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 1: I mean, I would guess that's probably play. It is 367 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:28,880 Speaker 1: done intrinsically for the fun of doing it right for her, 368 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:31,439 Speaker 1: it's not. I don't find it tremendously fun myself, but 369 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:33,680 Speaker 1: she loves it. She can't get enough of it. Well, 370 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:35,639 Speaker 1: why can't your feet take a joke? It's more the 371 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 1: claws and the teeth than the joke. I'm all hot 372 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 1: for the joke. Uh. So, yeah, we we know this 373 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 1: is there in these Uh. I guess we consider them 374 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:45,880 Speaker 1: since their predatory mammals. We you know, we think about 375 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 1: them as having like more complex brains. But it's also 376 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 1: there in say, mice like I was reading an article 377 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:55,679 Speaker 1: by the researchers Leelle and Dugatkin and Serena Rodriguez for 378 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 1: a Berkeley publication, and they were pointing out the researches 379 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 1: found that mice usually start playing about fifteen days after 380 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: they're born UH, and that play activities peak around nineteen 381 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:11,120 Speaker 1: to twenty five days. And this seems to coincide with 382 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:16,399 Speaker 1: neurosciences revealed coincide with development of synapses in the cerebellum 383 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 1: and those those synapses are necessary for muscle control in life. 384 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:21,879 Speaker 1: So there seems to be something going on where like 385 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:25,640 Speaker 1: young mice are playing around the same time their brains 386 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:29,200 Speaker 1: are developing the stuff that they need for for running 387 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 1: around and surviving with with muscle control. And also, mice 388 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:35,399 Speaker 1: tend to show greater brain development when they're raised in 389 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:38,920 Speaker 1: environments with wheels and other play structures than in environments 390 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:41,880 Speaker 1: without them. Give my something to play with and their 391 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 1: brains do better. So this is the basic idea that 392 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 1: of play as a rehearsal for something, play is practice 393 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 1: for skills one will need as an adult, yes, or 394 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:57,360 Speaker 1: play being necessary for just normal brain development um. And 395 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:00,359 Speaker 1: both of those are strong theories about why play cists 396 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 1: in the animal world. That will come back to that 397 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:05,200 Speaker 1: in some caveats in just a minute. UH. An interesting 398 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 1: question I came across is is their play among non mammals. 399 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 1: We know it's pretty much universal among mammals, but there 400 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:14,680 Speaker 1: are all these debatable reports of play among various birds 401 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:18,920 Speaker 1: and reptiles. Um, it does seem, for example, that ravens play. 402 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:21,439 Speaker 1: They do stuff that's hard not to look at and 403 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:25,120 Speaker 1: say that's play. Like juvenile ravens are attracted to novel 404 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:28,320 Speaker 1: objects almost in the way, uh, you know, like like 405 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 1: a dog would be with toys, and they seem to 406 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 1: play around with them. One really interesting thing I came 407 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 1: across was in the zoologist Vladimir Denett's published a paper 408 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: in Animal Behavior and Cognition describing the play behaviors of 409 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:49,120 Speaker 1: crocodilians playful crocodiles, which apparently was not news to people 410 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:52,159 Speaker 1: who worked regularly with these animals. But you might be wondering, well, 411 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 1: how the heck does a crocodile play, or an alligator? 412 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 1: You know, what does that look like? They're all kinds 413 00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:01,160 Speaker 1: of ways. Uh. Sometimes they chase after inflatable balls, They 414 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 1: surf in waves, they snap at flowing water, They give 415 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:07,880 Speaker 1: each other piggyback rides, they blow bubbles. These are all 416 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:12,160 Speaker 1: things that seem to meet these biological and ethological definitions 417 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 1: of play that's that's crazy, because I would certainly have thought, Okay, 418 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:21,960 Speaker 1: the raven might play, it is an intelligent creature, but reptile, Yeah, yeah, 419 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 1: I would have been there with you. But but apparently 420 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:26,680 Speaker 1: this is just common knowledge to people who are hands 421 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:30,480 Speaker 1: on with crocodilian's a lot even fish. There there is 422 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,160 Speaker 1: debate about this about whether this really counts is play. 423 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,399 Speaker 1: But for example, they sometimes jump when there's no need to, 424 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,120 Speaker 1: when stress levels are low. Why there's nothing chasing them, 425 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:42,400 Speaker 1: They're not getting anything from it. We've talked about fish 426 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 1: jumping on stuff to blow your mind before. Uh, and 427 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:48,399 Speaker 1: so there there are some ideas that maybe they're playing. 428 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 1: Maybe this is a form of play. Now, once you 429 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:54,640 Speaker 1: get down to invertebrates, it really does get much trickier 430 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 1: to find things that could reasonably be classed as play, except, 431 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 1: of course, in the case of you know what cephalopods, right, Oh, 432 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 1: of course, yeah, I was. I was, I was thinking 433 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 1: about insects and I was thinking, oh, well, well, Dr 434 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 1: Seth Brundle told us that there there are no insect 435 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:11,440 Speaker 1: politics and he didn't say anything about play. But it 436 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 1: kind of stands to reason that insects would not play. 437 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,199 Speaker 1: But then of course, I forget about about the the 438 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 1: invertebrate superstars of the cephalopod world. Yeah, which are you know, 439 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 1: the true aliens on Earth? Like octopuses are clearly one 440 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 1: of the most playful animals on this planet. Though their 441 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 1: play might seem very strange to us. They seem to 442 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 1: enjoy puzzles and new toys and challenges, and sometimes they 443 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:35,920 Speaker 1: like pull on people in what seemed to be strange 444 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:39,639 Speaker 1: examples of social play. There are also even reports of 445 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 1: play like behaviors among insects like ants and wasps, but 446 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 1: these reports this is very controversial. Well, I guess a 447 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 1: lot of this is getting into an individual organisms tendencies 448 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:53,639 Speaker 1: towards neophilia, uh, the the you know, the likelihood that 449 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 1: they're gonna seek out novel experiences or items if there's 450 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:00,919 Speaker 1: if they are you know, a curious creek that benefits 451 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 1: has a survival benefit in trying things out, such as 452 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:06,639 Speaker 1: we talked about raccoons on stuff to blow your mind before. 453 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,159 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, of course raccoons, being mammals, do seem to 454 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:12,160 Speaker 1: be somewhat playful. But also we talked about the idea 455 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:16,200 Speaker 1: that like raccoons who have stronger, stronger neophilia instincts, the 456 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,200 Speaker 1: ones that seek out novel objects and approach them rather 457 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 1: than avoid them. They tend to do better and say 458 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 1: urban environments, which that makes sense. You approach some novel 459 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 1: objects in an urban environment, you will often get some 460 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 1: fries out of it or something. Um. But anyway, so 461 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 1: I want to come back and kind of rope in 462 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 1: just a basic overview of the ideas about why play 463 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 1: exists in animals, what biological purpose does it serve? Of course, 464 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 1: this is something we don't fully know the answer to 465 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 1: right this is this is an unsolved question, but there 466 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 1: are some some strong hypotheses with with some evidence behind them. 467 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,959 Speaker 1: So one we already mentioned is that play is training 468 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 1: for crucial survival or reproductive skills. And in the words 469 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 1: of the English psychologist Peter case If this would mean quote, 470 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:07,359 Speaker 1: play primarily affords juveniles practice towards the exercise of later skills. 471 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 1: And you can already probably imagine tons of reasons for 472 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:13,359 Speaker 1: thinking this is the case, Like think about, um, how 473 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:16,120 Speaker 1: much of the play we see in other animals and 474 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 1: in humans frankly resembles forms of survival and reproduction behavior. 475 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:26,119 Speaker 1: Play very often looks like fighting, hunting, escaping, feeding, or 476 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: mating actions that you know mimic These activities in an 477 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 1: exaggerated or incomplete form make up a huge portion of 478 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,919 Speaker 1: play behaviors. But there are also there's some evidence against 479 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 1: this too. There as studies in many animals, including some 480 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,360 Speaker 1: types of mice and merecats, that have found that animals 481 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: who play at a skill like hunting or fighting do 482 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:50,360 Speaker 1: not later show advantages at this skill compared to individuals 483 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 1: that play at the skill less. So maybe sometimes this 484 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,680 Speaker 1: isn't the case. Uh. There's also the question of why 485 00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:01,119 Speaker 1: forms of play sometimes continue into adulthood to survival skills 486 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:05,440 Speaker 1: are mastered, or why some play behaviors, especially in humans, 487 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 1: do not mimic physical survival behaviors. A classic example of 488 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:13,200 Speaker 1: this would be the board game Yes. A couple of 489 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 1: alternate theories that came across because they were mentioned by 490 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 1: dugat Ken and Rodriguez. One is that play is essentially 491 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 1: for like social species, it's for learning the rules. This 492 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 1: is from the University of Colorado biologist Mark baykoff Uh, 493 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,679 Speaker 1: and he basically says that play is useful for developing 494 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 1: a sense of morality and social skills. Like play allows 495 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:38,200 Speaker 1: animals to experience and internalize their social clan sense of fairness, 496 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,919 Speaker 1: of inclusion and exclusion of justice, and what cheating is. 497 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, this is a very good, good point and 498 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 1: something that I see coming up in my own life 499 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,199 Speaker 1: with a six year old playing some board games with 500 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,959 Speaker 1: him while he's also learning how to play chess at school, 501 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 1: and a lot of it is you know, certainly there's 502 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:59,879 Speaker 1: a there's a stressing abstract thought and learning systems of 503 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,679 Speaker 1: rules and strategy, but a lot of it is like 504 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 1: learning how to lose, learning how to win, how to 505 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 1: do both of those things gracefully, how not to cheat, 506 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 1: how to respond to cheating like these are all all 507 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,199 Speaker 1: sort of aspects of the general exercise. Yeah, so I 508 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 1: think that that's a strong possibility as well. Another theory 509 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:22,639 Speaker 1: is from the check researcher Mark Spinka, who says that 510 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 1: play is to help animals not necessarily just practice individual 511 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,920 Speaker 1: skills like hunting, fighting and all that, but to generally 512 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:33,880 Speaker 1: prepare for the unexpected. It's how an animal readies its 513 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 1: brain to be surprised by life and deal with that 514 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 1: surprise gracefully. So things like being knocked off balance when 515 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:46,239 Speaker 1: you're not expecting it, or things like encountering failure in 516 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:49,120 Speaker 1: a in a chase or something like this. Another way 517 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,840 Speaker 1: of putting this is that play and games serve to 518 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 1: increase versatility. This is this is very very good point, 519 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 1: because I'm thinking about like various physical sports, a lot 520 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,639 Speaker 1: of it does seem to have a it seemed to 521 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 1: stress bodily awareness and being able to react physically to change. 522 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,720 Speaker 1: And then most board games of any of any note, 523 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:13,919 Speaker 1: you know, there's some level of you go into the 524 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 1: game with a certain strategy, there's a certain way you 525 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 1: can and perhaps will win. But then the best laid 526 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 1: plans right foiled foiled. You have to figure out, well, 527 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 1: how am I going to react to this and still 528 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,159 Speaker 1: try and achieve my initial goals. Maybe there's a different 529 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 1: way I'm going to have to win after all. Well, 530 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 1: and this, you know, you you can see it in 531 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 1: the way that we really we have an extremely derisive 532 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 1: attitude toward people who do not lose or face adversity 533 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:44,920 Speaker 1: in games. Well, you know the person who flips the 534 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 1: table when they get when they you know, get frustrated 535 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 1: in risk or something that's like an archetype we all 536 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 1: know about. We all know that guy, and that behavior 537 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 1: is strongly frowned upon right now. Part of it might 538 00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 1: be because they're playing Monopoly or some garbage game like that, 539 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 1: but but no, Yeah, people who react like that to games, 540 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 1: they can probably react like that to to just about 541 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 1: any game. And I think one of the important lessons 542 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 1: of gaming, like one that I continually try to embrace, 543 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 1: is in enjoying the way in which you lose, Like 544 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 1: I think, I think it's a testament to of a 545 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 1: well designed game, because I've also played some games where 546 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,560 Speaker 1: I'm like, Okay, this game is kind of BS and 547 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 1: I'm losing. Uh, there's really what am I doing? You know? 548 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 1: But but a really good game, You're like, oh, I 549 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 1: see disaster is coming, and isn't it interesting how it's 550 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 1: playing out? What can I do to minimize disaster? That 551 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: can sometimes become the new game that you're playing that 552 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:40,400 Speaker 1: is a really great kind of game. I haven't even 553 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 1: thought about that, games that are interesting to lose. Yeah. 554 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 1: Um So, one more theory I want to mention before 555 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 1: we move on. The last one I came across was 556 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 1: in a presentation called what is play for by the 557 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 1: Penn State professor Gary Chick, and this discusses the possibility 558 00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 1: that play is favored by sexual selection, that it's at 559 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 1: a Playfulness is a signaling mechanism of fitness in adults, 560 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 1: and that might answer why even adults are playful and 561 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 1: not just children. Like animals including humans, tend to prefer 562 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 1: mates that play, because play is interpreted as a signal 563 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 1: of a few things. Play signals youth, youthfulness, play signals 564 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 1: good health, play signals intelligence, and it signals good socialization. Yeah, 565 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 1: these are all solid points. But plus, in the more 566 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 1: of the human context, there's a sense of leisure there, right, 567 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 1: Like this individual has space in their life for something 568 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 1: of little or no consequence, like a game. Right, I 569 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 1: mean in the animal context, I think that's part of 570 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 1: the good health signaling. Right, If you show off that 571 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 1: you can play a game, you're showing off that you're 572 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 1: not starving and sick and at the edge, Like, hey, look, 573 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 1: and I'm chasing a ball. This isn't gonna feed me, 574 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 1: but I'm big enough I can catch something later. Yeah. So, 575 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 1: I mean, ultimately, we don't know which of these theories 576 00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 1: are correct, and there are other ones too, we don't 577 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 1: have time to chase them all on here. I guess 578 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 1: you could also posit that of course play is not 579 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,640 Speaker 1: for anything that it doesn't serve any adaptive biological purpose. 580 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 1: But given how widely play is selected for, I really 581 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 1: find this unlikely. But anyway to come back to board 582 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 1: games here, Given all of this we've looked at, I 583 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 1: think one of the interesting questions to ask is what 584 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 1: kind of play does a board game represent? And how 585 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 1: does does a board game fit into this whole model. 586 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 1: So if you take the view that well, maybe a 587 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,240 Speaker 1: lot of play is training for skills later in life. 588 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 1: Maybe that's what most of play is for in the 589 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 1: animal world, that's obviously plausible for a lot of different things, because, 590 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:40,080 Speaker 1: as we mentioned earlier, how many types of play involved 591 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:44,880 Speaker 1: things that are necessary for survival, like chasing, fighting, uh, 592 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:48,959 Speaker 1: you know, playing house, imaginative playing with skills of you know, 593 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 1: maintaining a domestic life, that kind of thing, right, finding 594 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 1: your mystery date, um, you know, creating your ensuring your 595 00:31:55,720 --> 00:32:01,240 Speaker 1: financial future, battling barbarians um or or or so simply 596 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 1: just responding to luck, responding to chance, responding to to 597 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 1: unforeseen events. Well, I think that last one might be 598 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 1: especially relevant with games with board games, because what sets 599 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,320 Speaker 1: board games apart from so many of these other games 600 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,600 Speaker 1: like play fighting, play chasing, playing house and all that 601 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,480 Speaker 1: is that unlike these physical sports and stuff, board games 602 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:28,040 Speaker 1: become almost entirely abstracted from any physical activity that is 603 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 1: important for survival or reproduction. They're abstract games. Their games 604 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 1: taken into an imaginary space that you don't act out 605 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:39,960 Speaker 1: full behaviors with your body, you know, right, Yeah, it 606 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 1: becomes even though you may have some impressive, uh fluff, 607 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 1: you may have some you know, impressive materials, some very 608 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:50,120 Speaker 1: nice figurines, etcetera, it's still largely something that is taking 609 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:53,640 Speaker 1: place in the mind, with the aid of some physical 610 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 1: materials and of course the system of rules. With that 611 00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 1: in mind, I think we should maybe take a break 612 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 1: and then come back and folk us on some of 613 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 1: the earliest known board games and and see what we 614 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 1: can make of them. Alright, we're back. So in researching this, 615 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 1: we we look to a number of different sources, but 616 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,600 Speaker 1: of course I ended up picking up Brian and Fagin's 617 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 1: excellent The seventy Grade Inventions of the Ancient World is 618 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:23,640 Speaker 1: a fun starting put place. Uh. He only devotes two 619 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 1: pages to board games, but it provides a nice overview 620 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 1: and one of the things that he drives home is 621 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 1: that board games are probably as old as human culture. 622 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:38,520 Speaker 1: That pretty much any ancient or modern society has some 623 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 1: sort of board game. It just seems innately tied to 624 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,640 Speaker 1: how we think and how we use objects and rules. 625 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 1: And you can even go so as far as to 626 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 1: say that they're a defining element of human society. Now, 627 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 1: obviously they came out of something though, right, But but 628 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 1: the details are lost to the myths of history. It's 629 00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:01,360 Speaker 1: unlikely that there's a single necess city or breakthrough that 630 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:05,240 Speaker 1: evolved into game playing. But there are a couple of 631 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,279 Speaker 1: key theories that I think are worth considering. So the 632 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,480 Speaker 1: first is that, and this ties in with some of 633 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:13,000 Speaker 1: the discussions we've had about play, is it is the 634 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 1: the safe sublimation of competition and rivalry. Oh, this is 635 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:19,879 Speaker 1: often a theory about sports as well, That it does 636 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,239 Speaker 1: something to uh. It takes an instinct that we have 637 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:26,040 Speaker 1: that can be destructive and gives us an outlet for 638 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 1: that instinct that is not destructive. Right. You know, today 639 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 1: we have a game night in which say employee employee, 640 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 1: fellow employees, or friends or family members members will gather 641 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:38,399 Speaker 1: together and attempt to crush each other so that one 642 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:41,879 Speaker 1: may rise up victorious over the rest. This would be 643 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:45,160 Speaker 1: terrible if we did this four real zes. But since 644 00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:47,440 Speaker 1: we're doing it within the confines of a board game 645 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:51,000 Speaker 1: or card game or what have you, Uh, it's it's 646 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,200 Speaker 1: perfectly acceptable, it's even beneficial. I mean, look at the 647 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 1: way people practice sports fandom. You can clearly see in 648 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:02,920 Speaker 1: this that we have some powerful instincts that that that 649 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:05,440 Speaker 1: caused us to want to band together in groups and 650 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:08,839 Speaker 1: support of, you know, against a common enemy that's also 651 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:12,759 Speaker 1: banding together. We have, I think some inherent warlike instincts, 652 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:14,920 Speaker 1: and I think it would probably be bad if we 653 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,360 Speaker 1: just had these instincts bouncing around without any way to 654 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:22,319 Speaker 1: express them. That wasn't actually harmful. But generally speaking, you're 655 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 1: dealing with with far lower stakes. Yes, even if there 656 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,200 Speaker 1: is money on the line, it is still generally generally 657 00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:31,239 Speaker 1: your life is not on the line right now. The 658 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:35,200 Speaker 1: second idea, and this one, this one I really find interesting, 659 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:41,279 Speaker 1: is that board games emerged out of ritual and divination practices. Yes, yes, yes, yes, 660 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,799 Speaker 1: this is really interesting. Now. Of course, divination practices would 661 00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:48,120 Speaker 1: be what I would be trying to answer an unanswerable 662 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,680 Speaker 1: question or gain some piece of knowledge by the invocation 663 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:54,400 Speaker 1: of the gods or spirits or something, usually using a 664 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:59,439 Speaker 1: physical medium. Yeah too. Yeah, and sometimes it's overt it is, say, 665 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:04,440 Speaker 1: asking spirit um deceased loved one or an ancestor, or 666 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:07,839 Speaker 1: a god or a goddess or a supernatural entity for help. 667 00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:11,319 Speaker 1: Other times it's it's a bit more obscure, like what 668 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,600 Speaker 1: you're actually asking and why you're using a particular means 669 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:17,719 Speaker 1: to do so. We had an episode of Stuff to 670 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:19,919 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind where we talked about the eaching where 671 00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:22,320 Speaker 1: we get into a lot of this. Yeah, talking about 672 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:26,719 Speaker 1: the eaching is essentially a randomization engine for divination that 673 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:31,319 Speaker 1: depends on physical objects to create and record randomized events. Uh. 674 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:36,240 Speaker 1: Specifically uh tossing a few coins, laying some sticks down 675 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 1: to keep track of what what the coins tell you, 676 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:43,279 Speaker 1: and then referring to a system of rules to tell 677 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:48,200 Speaker 1: you what these lines mean, and then of course how 678 00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:51,200 Speaker 1: you should act what you should expect based on that. Now, remember, 679 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:53,120 Speaker 1: in the Stuff to Blow your Mind episode, we talked 680 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:55,680 Speaker 1: about how even though you know, we're not positing that 681 00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:58,640 Speaker 1: sort of ledge methods where you like, you know, cast 682 00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:01,960 Speaker 1: lots or something or actually giving you, say, knowledge of 683 00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:05,040 Speaker 1: the future or anything like that, they could still be 684 00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:08,560 Speaker 1: useful or adaptive in that they might tend to prompt 685 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:12,319 Speaker 1: action when you were otherwise frozen, Like it's possible, you know, 686 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:14,480 Speaker 1: you're just faced with a problem, you don't know what 687 00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:17,920 Speaker 1: to do, and in fact it's the case that really 688 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:21,400 Speaker 1: any action is better than no action, and thus consulting 689 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:25,000 Speaker 1: a divination method gives you impetus to go forward with 690 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:28,719 Speaker 1: some type of response. I remember in that issuing episode 691 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:30,799 Speaker 1: that we did, we we looked to a quote from 692 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:36,400 Speaker 1: Julian Jaynes, who is the individual that was behind the 693 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:40,440 Speaker 1: the bicameral mind hypothesis. But but this particular quote has 694 00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:43,920 Speaker 1: has little to do with with with that particular hypothesis. 695 00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:48,560 Speaker 1: But he was talking about sortilage, and he said quote. 696 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:53,040 Speaker 1: But this simplicity, even uh triviality to us, should not 697 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:57,239 Speaker 1: blind us from seeing the profound psychological problem involved, as 698 00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:01,120 Speaker 1: well as appreciating its remarkable historical importance. We're so used 699 00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:04,040 Speaker 1: to the huge variety of games of chance, throwing dice 700 00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:07,120 Speaker 1: through let wheels, etcetera, all of them vestiges of this 701 00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:10,520 Speaker 1: ancient practice of divination by lots, that we find it 702 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:14,239 Speaker 1: difficult to really appreciate the significance of this practice historically. 703 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:16,799 Speaker 1: It is a help here to realize that there was 704 00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:21,360 Speaker 1: no concept of chance whatever until very recent times. So 705 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:24,160 Speaker 1: he had to think about and he's tying that in 706 00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:26,480 Speaker 1: a little bit to his hypothesis. But but for the 707 00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:31,200 Speaker 1: most partly thinking of the primordial uh, you know, ancestors 708 00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:34,240 Speaker 1: to the board game, to games of chance being simply 709 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:38,120 Speaker 1: a way of of figuring out how to act, Like 710 00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:41,040 Speaker 1: what I must do something? But how do I possibly 711 00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:44,439 Speaker 1: weigh these two things? I must appeal to some other force? Yeah, 712 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:46,400 Speaker 1: I mean, I think there's something to that. We we 713 00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:48,560 Speaker 1: can't know this for sure, that you know, ancient or 714 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:53,040 Speaker 1: prehistoric people's had no concept of chance, But judging by 715 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:56,680 Speaker 1: their writings when we have access to those, it does 716 00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,640 Speaker 1: seem like they didn't really have much of an idea 717 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:01,839 Speaker 1: of endomness, at least to me. It seems more like 718 00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:05,359 Speaker 1: there's a general belief in sort of like determinism by 719 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:07,920 Speaker 1: the gods or by some kind of power of fate 720 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 1: that you know, win something that that appears random happens, 721 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:14,879 Speaker 1: say even just the outcome of a dice roll, that 722 00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:17,360 Speaker 1: was the will of the gods for it to happen 723 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:20,160 Speaker 1: that way, And so if you imagine board games in 724 00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:23,480 Speaker 1: this context, they would take on a very different cast, right, 725 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:26,560 Speaker 1: every time you throw the dice, which I guess at 726 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:28,239 Speaker 1: that time probably wouldn't have been dice, but would have 727 00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:30,080 Speaker 1: been something like, you know, sticks that fall in a 728 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:32,399 Speaker 1: certain way to tell you how many places to move 729 00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:35,080 Speaker 1: or what the outcome of something is, or a knuckle 730 00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:38,640 Speaker 1: bones or a common one. Yeah, yeah, I rattle the bones. 731 00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:41,759 Speaker 1: I think there's this old Babylonian inscription that's like a 732 00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:45,600 Speaker 1: gambler's lament that says like, woe, woe, woe to me 733 00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:48,920 Speaker 1: the knuckle bones. It's like, you know, oh no that 734 00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:51,080 Speaker 1: you know, they gave me bad fate. But the bad 735 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:54,560 Speaker 1: fate could be within a game, and within the game 736 00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:58,719 Speaker 1: this would still be interpreted, perhaps as a deliverance by 737 00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:01,160 Speaker 1: the gods or or a punishment by the gods, like 738 00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:04,600 Speaker 1: the gods are determining who wins your dice game. Yeah, 739 00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:06,680 Speaker 1: because it's kind of like you're going, all right, God, 740 00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:08,320 Speaker 1: I need some help on this. Give me a sign, 741 00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:11,319 Speaker 1: all right, I don't see a sign. What I'm gonna 742 00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:14,480 Speaker 1: do is I'm gonna I'm gonna throw this stick. If 743 00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:16,680 Speaker 1: it lands this way, I'm gonna assume that's a yes, 744 00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:18,880 Speaker 1: and if it lands the other way, I'm going to 745 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,799 Speaker 1: take that as a no. So balls in your court. God, 746 00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:23,799 Speaker 1: here we go. But what if it's not a yes 747 00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:26,040 Speaker 1: or no about a question in your life, but about 748 00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:28,840 Speaker 1: do I get to advance a space in this game 749 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:32,320 Speaker 1: on the board? Wow? Imagine if that was the case. 750 00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:35,560 Speaker 1: Every time we play a board game, a divine being 751 00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:38,640 Speaker 1: has to has to like clock in the day, Like, oh, 752 00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:40,839 Speaker 1: my goodness, they're playing Arkham Harror. I'm gonna be here 753 00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:43,800 Speaker 1: all night. I hate this one. Can't they just play 754 00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:47,680 Speaker 1: play checkers? You know? I wonder if this may come 755 00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:50,040 Speaker 1: in as one of the things I often wonder about 756 00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:53,200 Speaker 1: is like, why do some religions forbid games of chance 757 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:56,279 Speaker 1: or forbid gambling? What is it about that activity that 758 00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,120 Speaker 1: makes it detestable to the religious authorities and the people 759 00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:02,960 Speaker 1: who come up with these religious dogmas. I wonder if 760 00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:05,840 Speaker 1: games of chance, especially in the ancient frame of mind, 761 00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:10,640 Speaker 1: tend to suggest a belief in like consulting demons and 762 00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:14,759 Speaker 1: a non sanctioned spiritual authorities, you know, so that when 763 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:18,920 Speaker 1: you roll a die or roll a knucklebone, you may 764 00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:22,239 Speaker 1: in fact be uh having a consult every time you 765 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:25,120 Speaker 1: do it with some kind of illicit spirit, with a 766 00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:27,520 Speaker 1: demon or something. Huh. And it would be interested to 767 00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:30,040 Speaker 1: come back and do an Invention episode on gambling. But 768 00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:32,200 Speaker 1: I also wonder, and I may be completely off on this, 769 00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:35,080 Speaker 1: I wonder if it's ever a case where Okay, if 770 00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:38,120 Speaker 1: a board game or a game is simply a simulation, 771 00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:42,160 Speaker 1: a simplification with lowered stakes, if you then raise the 772 00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:46,080 Speaker 1: stakes again, does that become gambling? And it's because that's 773 00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:47,880 Speaker 1: kind of how I always think about gambling. It's like 774 00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:51,320 Speaker 1: playing cards for fun, that's fun, playing cards for money. Okay, 775 00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:53,440 Speaker 1: you've taken taken something fun, and you've made it a 776 00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:58,640 Speaker 1: little dirty, and you've made losing feel more real, and 777 00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:04,520 Speaker 1: you've made winning a little more icky. Somehow everyone's mileage 778 00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:06,680 Speaker 1: is going to vary on that. Well, but that's my 779 00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:08,879 Speaker 1: take on I think there could also be when you're 780 00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:12,280 Speaker 1: talking about not just games of chance, but like adding 781 00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:16,280 Speaker 1: the gambling element, yes, which does seem to be often crucial, 782 00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:18,880 Speaker 1: you know, is their money on the line there? You 783 00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:20,840 Speaker 1: could also just say that it's like, well, it's a 784 00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:25,160 Speaker 1: basic social control problem because for some reason, where there's gambling, 785 00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:28,040 Speaker 1: there also tends to be disorder and crime. You know, 786 00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:31,760 Speaker 1: gambling tends to lead to fights and murder and stuff. 787 00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:34,640 Speaker 1: It could just be something like as simple as that, right. 788 00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:37,920 Speaker 1: I know, we were looking at at some sources about 789 00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:42,480 Speaker 1: Islamic law and the interpretation of Islamic laws concerning games 790 00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:45,640 Speaker 1: of chance versus games of skill, and it seems like 791 00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:47,319 Speaker 1: for the for the most part, based on what we're 792 00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:52,319 Speaker 1: looking at, generally gambling is bad, gambling is against the rules. 793 00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:55,359 Speaker 1: But games that have dice in them, if there are 794 00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:57,640 Speaker 1: games of skill, you know, it's generally okay. So that 795 00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:01,040 Speaker 1: specifically the uh, you know, dungeons and dragons is fine. 796 00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:04,560 Speaker 1: I think there's a difference, opinion among difference. Yes, you're 797 00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:06,880 Speaker 1: still you're still going to find some some individuals that 798 00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:09,799 Speaker 1: have you know, there are a lot stricter on this, 799 00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:12,359 Speaker 1: and and and stricter on the interpretation and would say 800 00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:14,440 Speaker 1: that no, if their dice involved, or there's some sort 801 00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:17,040 Speaker 1: of chance element, then then it is not permitted. You know. 802 00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:20,280 Speaker 1: Going back to the sort of adaptive or revolutionary framework, 803 00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:23,760 Speaker 1: I wonder if you can fundamentally class games of chance 804 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:28,000 Speaker 1: versus games of skill as as having different kinds of 805 00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:32,319 Speaker 1: roles in our biology and our psychology. Yeah, yeah, probably so. 806 00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:34,480 Speaker 1: And maybe maybe that's again one of the reasons that 807 00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:37,480 Speaker 1: it's so perfect when when those two things are balanced 808 00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:41,080 Speaker 1: in a single game where you do need skill to win, 809 00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:45,920 Speaker 1: and yet there are these these these unpredictable moments, these 810 00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:49,960 Speaker 1: these turning points that can totally change the outcome, and 811 00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:52,240 Speaker 1: no amount of skill, Like maybe skill will be essential 812 00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:55,240 Speaker 1: to survive those twists and turns. Yeah, I mean, dealing 813 00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:59,000 Speaker 1: with dealing with unforeseen circumstances is a skill in a way. 814 00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:03,520 Speaker 1: The the skill of versatility is the ability to face 815 00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:05,960 Speaker 1: the vicissitudes of fate and come up with a with 816 00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:09,560 Speaker 1: a way around. Like candy Land is definitely a game 817 00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:13,600 Speaker 1: that requires no skill. You know, if anybody has ever 818 00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:17,680 Speaker 1: played with the child knows virtually it's just all random movement. 819 00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:20,400 Speaker 1: There's there's not really any there are no decisions to 820 00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:24,480 Speaker 1: be made. You're the complete whims of the universe. When 821 00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:26,200 Speaker 1: it comes to that, that's going to be the one 822 00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:28,759 Speaker 1: that God's really hate clocking in for because they have 823 00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:31,360 Speaker 1: to do all the work. But then you have games 824 00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:33,719 Speaker 1: like chess right where yes you're having to respond to 825 00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:37,000 Speaker 1: changes that are perpetrated, but they're perpetrated by your opponent 826 00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:39,239 Speaker 1: at any rate. I do want to drive home that 827 00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:42,200 Speaker 1: whether we're looking at this idea of of games and 828 00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:45,759 Speaker 1: board games as the safe sublimation of competition or as 829 00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:49,959 Speaker 1: something that emerged out of divination practices, uh, we can't 830 00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:52,760 Speaker 1: really know for sure. There's evidence for both of these. Uh, 831 00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:55,319 Speaker 1: they're likely other reasons in play as well, including just 832 00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:58,920 Speaker 1: the desire to do something that is amuses you, something 833 00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:01,720 Speaker 1: that is fun. But I'm still haunted by that question. 834 00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:04,479 Speaker 1: How did the thing that amuses us, the thing that's fun, 835 00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:10,040 Speaker 1: become moving around little tiles on top of a pattern surface, 836 00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:13,800 Speaker 1: or you know, or like rolling a knucklebone and seeing 837 00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:16,799 Speaker 1: how many of a piece of tokens we got to take, 838 00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:21,480 Speaker 1: or something such a strange and abstract way of approaching games, 839 00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:25,160 Speaker 1: which in their core, they should involve the body, right, 840 00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:28,200 Speaker 1: they should involve like you should be playing house, or 841 00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:31,000 Speaker 1: you should be play fighting, you should be running a race, 842 00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:34,480 Speaker 1: but instead we're doing it in this abstract space with 843 00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:37,960 Speaker 1: these little representative figurines. I mean, it almost seems like 844 00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:39,920 Speaker 1: it suggests to me that there could be some kind 845 00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:44,080 Speaker 1: of relationship between the emergence of board games as this 846 00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:48,040 Speaker 1: abstracted form of play and the emergence of writing as 847 00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:53,839 Speaker 1: this abstracted form of representing thoughts, this abstracted form of speech. Yeah, 848 00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:57,279 Speaker 1: taking what's going on inside our minds and put in 849 00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:00,279 Speaker 1: externalizing it, because they think of one of the key 850 00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:03,560 Speaker 1: things that our mind does is we're we're simulating future events. 851 00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:07,360 Speaker 1: We're engaging in mental time travel, both past and future. 852 00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:10,000 Speaker 1: We're trying to envision what is going to happen and 853 00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:12,880 Speaker 1: how we're going to react to stuff like that happening. 854 00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:17,680 Speaker 1: And it's a purely mental, uh, mental exercise. So it's 855 00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:20,759 Speaker 1: in a sense, planning it all out or doing just 856 00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:24,759 Speaker 1: very abstract versions of planning it all out in a 857 00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:27,880 Speaker 1: physical system in a board game like that's that's perfectly 858 00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:30,920 Speaker 1: in keeping with the spirit of play fighting, but it's 859 00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:32,720 Speaker 1: a different type of fight. It's the kind of fight 860 00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:37,560 Speaker 1: that that that really only conscious beings are capable of engaging. 861 00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:40,000 Speaker 1: This is really interesting, and that's why I am so 862 00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:42,759 Speaker 1: excited to come back next time and talk about the 863 00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:46,080 Speaker 1: earliest to known evidence of board games. What do the 864 00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:49,359 Speaker 1: earliest board games look like? What are they? That's right, 865 00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:52,080 Speaker 1: it's it's there's some fascinating examples to to run through. 866 00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:55,200 Speaker 1: But we've run the full course for this episode. So 867 00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:57,400 Speaker 1: in the meantime, as you're waiting for next week's episode 868 00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:01,359 Speaker 1: to come out, head on over to invention paw dot com. 869 00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:03,600 Speaker 1: That is the mothership for this show. That's where we'll 870 00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:05,920 Speaker 1: find all the episodes of Invention links out to some 871 00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:08,680 Speaker 1: social media accounts linked to a store. Even if you 872 00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:10,680 Speaker 1: really like our jazzy logo and would like to get 873 00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:13,279 Speaker 1: it on a sticker or a shirt, that's a fun 874 00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:15,200 Speaker 1: way to support the show. But really the best thing 875 00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:18,000 Speaker 1: you can do to support Invention and ensure that we 876 00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:20,680 Speaker 1: get to keep rolling these episodes out is to make 877 00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:24,480 Speaker 1: sure you have subscribed. And once you've subscribed to Invention, 878 00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:26,920 Speaker 1: make sure you give us a nice rating wherever you 879 00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:29,279 Speaker 1: have the ability to do so, throw up some star, 880 00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:33,160 Speaker 1: throw up a nice review on Apple podcasts, or wherever 881 00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:35,839 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Huge thanks as always to our 882 00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:39,080 Speaker 1: excellent audio producer, Tory Harrison. If you would like to 883 00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:41,640 Speaker 1: get in touch with us with feedback about this episode 884 00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:44,200 Speaker 1: or any other episode, to suggest a topic for a 885 00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:46,719 Speaker 1: future episode of Invention, or just to say hello, you 886 00:47:46,719 --> 00:48:00,000 Speaker 1: can email us at contact at invention pod dot com. 887 00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:00,680 Speaker 1: You gad