1 00:00:01,800 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: You're listening to Math and Magic, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:10,880 Speaker 2: I didn't really think about it as a business at first, 3 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:14,240 Speaker 2: and then eventually, when we put it up on a 4 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 2: bit of a lark, we started to see people calling, 5 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:20,759 Speaker 2: and suddenly we were getting you have twenty seven calls 6 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 2: this hour, and then later I would call it and say, 7 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:26,119 Speaker 2: you have one hundred and forty two thousand calls this hour. 8 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 2: Like that started happening, and we were amazed by it. 9 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 3: I am Bob Pittman, and welcome to Math and Magic. 10 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 3: Stories from the Frontiers of Marketing on episodes Today, we're 11 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:40,239 Speaker 3: going to hear some lessons and stories from a man 12 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:44,239 Speaker 3: whose life has been about curiosity and the unique skills 13 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:48,159 Speaker 3: to turn that curiosity in the businesses and projects and 14 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 3: have fun along the way. Entrepreneur filmmaker Andrew Dreki. Andrew 15 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 3: grew up in the New York City suburbs in the 16 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 3: sixties and seventies, wildly successful and very curious parents with 17 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 3: an incredible workout think a family of high achievers. He 18 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 3: started one of those businesses everyone used in the nineteen nineties, moviefone. 19 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 3: I was at AOL when we bought it, and although 20 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 3: I knew Andrew before then I got to know him 21 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:14,399 Speaker 3: a lot better after that. He co wrote a theme 22 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:16,679 Speaker 3: song for a hit TV show, directed a movie with 23 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:20,840 Speaker 3: Ryan Gosling, made a documentary that won eighteen international prizes 24 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 3: and was nominated for an Academy Award. He produced a 25 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 3: movie Catfish, and the HBO series The Jinx, The Life 26 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:30,919 Speaker 3: and Deaths of Robert Durst, which led to his arrest 27 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 3: and prosecution. He's a fascinating blend between street culture and 28 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 3: the Ivy League. He's really funny, equally as nice, and 29 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:43,639 Speaker 3: he also plays drums. Andrew welcome, Thank you. So before 30 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 3: we jump into the meaty stuff, I want to do 31 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 3: you in sixty seconds. You ready perfect? Do you prefer 32 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 3: cats or dogs? 33 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:50,639 Speaker 2: Dogs? 34 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 3: Early Riser or night Owl? Night Ol New York or 35 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 3: Los Angeles, New York? Cocher PEPSI Iced Team, Beach, your mountains, 36 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 3: beach or stones. 37 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 2: Everything is the Beatles, books or movies, movies, cook or 38 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:08,520 Speaker 2: Eat out, Eat out comedy or drama comedy. 39 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 3: It's about to get harder. First job, I was a magician, 40 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 3: all time favorite musical artist, Stevie Wonder, favorite TV show, 41 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 3: The Bear, Smartest person you know. 42 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 2: My dad childhood hero, Willy Wonka. 43 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 3: Favorite movie Willy Wonka on the chocolate Factory technology. You 44 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:27,920 Speaker 3: can't live without it. 45 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 2: I have a snowcone machine. 46 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 3: I cannot live without that most important bit of advice 47 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 3: you ever got from my dad. 48 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 2: Don't just do something? Stand there, Favorite city, Rome, secret talent. 49 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:45,839 Speaker 2: I was Duncan Yo Yo champion in nineteen seventy three. 50 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 3: Have you lost a skill? Kind of Okay? Final one? 51 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 3: What did you want to be when you were growing up? 52 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:54,519 Speaker 2: I think I wanted to be a filmmaker. 53 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 3: Let's start with moviefone. It was pre and early internet. 54 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 3: It was a way to get movie listings for people 55 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,920 Speaker 3: who are young and don't understand moviefone. Everybody used it. 56 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 3: That's where you got the info about what movie was out. 57 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 3: You could buy your tickets there, and those were in 58 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 3: the days when you talked into a phone to get 59 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:15,799 Speaker 3: stuff done as opposed to going on the internet. And 60 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 3: everyone really knew the voice of mister movie Phone. Give 61 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 3: us the origin story. 62 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:23,919 Speaker 2: I was trying to go to the movies around nineteen 63 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:26,239 Speaker 2: eighty eight, and I was calling my local theater, which 64 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 2: you used to have to do because the New York 65 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 2: Times didn't have all the show times in it. The 66 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 2: theater phone lines were always busy because the theaters didn't 67 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 2: understand that there were two thousand people trying to call 68 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 2: in a twenty minute period for that night. And I 69 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 2: got through at eight fifteen and the machine told me 70 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 2: that the movie had started at eight o'clock. And I thought, 71 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 2: why did I just ruin my night? And this multi 72 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 2: billion dollar movie industry doesn't get that I'm not able 73 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 2: to go out and buy my seven dollars then movie ticket. 74 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 2: So I thought, you know, voicemail was pretty advanced then, 75 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 2: and I thought, well, don't we create a service that 76 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 2: lets you push buttons. Maybe it's a free local service 77 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 2: and you put in the first three letters of the 78 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 2: movie title, put in your zip code, and it would 79 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 2: spit out just the theater closest to you, just the 80 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 2: information that you needed. I thought that would be a 81 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 2: cool thing for me to use. I didn't really think 82 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 2: about it as a business at first, and then eventually, 83 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 2: when we put it up on a bit of a lark, 84 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:22,160 Speaker 2: we started to see people calling and suddenly we were 85 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 2: getting you have twenty seven calls this hour, and then 86 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 2: later I would call it and say, you have one 87 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 2: hundred and forty two thousand calls this hour like that 88 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:32,840 Speaker 2: started happening, and we were amazed by it. 89 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 3: And so that's the idea. You get it started. How 90 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:39,679 Speaker 3: did you know how to turn that into a business. 91 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:42,039 Speaker 3: Remember we were on the buying end of it. You 92 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 3: sold it for a lot of money. 93 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,480 Speaker 2: It's true. And you know, I was very lucky because 94 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:49,839 Speaker 2: my dad is a very smart business person. And you know, 95 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:52,839 Speaker 2: he started out as a psychiatrist. He was a professor 96 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 2: of psychiatry at Yale, but he always had a business bug. 97 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 2: He was so smart about business. So I think I 98 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 2: immediately thought, well, this thing that we just put together 99 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 2: seems to be working for consumers. I wonder how much 100 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 2: I can promote it. I wonder how I can promote it. 101 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:10,919 Speaker 2: I talked to my dad about it. I talked to 102 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 2: other smart people that I knew. It was pretty clear 103 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 2: that all of our customers were walking through the doors 104 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:19,480 Speaker 2: of about five thousand cinemas in America. So if I 105 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:22,159 Speaker 2: could get the number seven seven seven film in front 106 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:25,479 Speaker 2: of people, up on the screens and trailers before the movie, 107 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:29,479 Speaker 2: I also figured out everybody's motivations quickly. I went to 108 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 2: a bunch of conventions, Show East and Show West. I 109 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 2: didn't know anybody, and I just walked around talked to everybody. 110 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:36,919 Speaker 2: This is the movie business in the movie business, and 111 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 2: I realized that nobody was talking to each other. They 112 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:43,919 Speaker 2: didn't understand that moviegoers were having trouble going to the movies. 113 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 2: It was just a pain in the neck to do it. 114 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 2: And the studios didn't really control the theaters. The theaters 115 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 2: didn't control the studios, and I thought, well, there's a 116 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 2: window in here where I could make things easier for 117 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:58,600 Speaker 2: the consumer and also make something that would be very 118 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 2: useful for the endo. So we just started to figure 119 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 2: out where are the little pinch points and leverage points. So, 120 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:07,920 Speaker 2: for example, I knew that the theater owners had control 121 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 2: over their movie screens. At the time, nobody was doing 122 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 2: advertising on movie screens. So I said to the theater owners, 123 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:18,040 Speaker 2: if I give you a thirty second ad for moviefone 124 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 2: and it's entertaining, will you put it up on their screens. 125 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:23,719 Speaker 2: Knowing that they had a problem, which was that the 126 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 2: newspapers were charging them a fortune to put their movie 127 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 2: listings in the newspapers. The studios weren't helping them, so 128 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 2: they said well, if this guy's coming along, it is 129 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 2: going to do it for free. I'll give him thirty 130 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 2: seconds of free time before the movie. So that was 131 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:40,799 Speaker 2: an example of some marketing thinking that helped us tremendously, 132 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 2: and it was a very you know, what do they say, 133 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:45,360 Speaker 2: all marketing is local, you know, getting out into the 134 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:48,599 Speaker 2: movie theaters, handing out little cards to people, getting that 135 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 2: message up on the screen. It sort of flowed naturally. 136 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:54,919 Speaker 3: And where did mister moviefone come from? 137 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 2: The voice very interesting? The voice was very important and 138 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 2: if you call right now, you can't really hear it anywhere, 139 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 2: but if you call my wife's cell phone, you'll hear 140 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:07,039 Speaker 2: hello and welcome to a Nancy phone. It became really 141 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 2: important to the brand. And it was lucky because when 142 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 2: I started the company in eighty eight eighty nine, I 143 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 2: found that there were a couple guys in Los Angeles 144 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 2: who were doing the exact same thing that we were. 145 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 2: We saw a little blurb about them in the Hollywood Reporter. 146 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 2: We called him up on the phone and I said, well, 147 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 2: I'd like to speak to the president please, and the 148 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 2: guy said speaking and I thought, well that's good. This 149 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 2: is a tiny little company, And so we decided to 150 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 2: join forces. And he was the voice. And he was 151 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 2: a guy from Idaho with a mustard colored suit and 152 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 2: big shoulder pads, and he had a big hairstyle. And 153 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 2: he was nothing like me. You know, I'd gone to 154 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 2: school on the East Coast and grown up in a 155 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 2: totally different way. But we had been working on the 156 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 2: same idea quietly for a long time. And I learned 157 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 2: by the way later from him that not only was 158 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 2: he the voice of movie phone and of very recognizable voice, 159 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 2: but that his mother in Idaho was the time lady. 160 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 2: She was the person you would call and she would 161 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 2: say at the tone, the time will be eleven forty 162 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 2: five exactly, boob. I thought that was kind of incredibic. 163 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:18,760 Speaker 2: It's genetic. 164 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 3: So why did you decide to sell the business? 165 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 2: I had been doing it for around I think eleven years, 166 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 2: and then I ran into you. I went to the 167 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:32,080 Speaker 2: premiere of You've Got Mail, which is a movie that 168 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 2: featured AO well, and it also had a little movie 169 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 2: phone blurb in it. It was Tom Hanks and Meg 170 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 2: Ryan are walking around and you hear the hello and 171 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 2: welcome movie phone, and I was sitting right in front 172 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 2: of you and the whole AOL team was there. And 173 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 2: I got up and you said to me, how you doing? 174 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 2: And I said good. He said, what's going on with 175 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 2: your business? And I had just been in these conversations 176 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 2: and I didn't know where the conversations were going. I 177 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:57,319 Speaker 2: had a friend who was a banker, and my friend 178 00:08:57,360 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 2: said to me, what's going on? And I said, well, 179 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:01,679 Speaker 2: I'm talking to Barry Dealer about this thing, and I'm 180 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 2: talking to this other guy about this thing. And he said, oh, 181 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 2: you're selling your company. And I said no, no, you 182 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 2: don't understand. I'm going to do a strategic alliance with somebody. 183 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 2: And he said, Andrew, I've been doing this a long time. 184 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:14,960 Speaker 2: You're selling your company. And then you said, well, you know, 185 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:18,959 Speaker 2: but come visit me. And then I had a phone 186 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:21,200 Speaker 2: call with you and you said, listen, I'd love to 187 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:22,599 Speaker 2: see you, but if you're going to come, just to 188 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 2: let you know, like big companies don't do strategic alliances 189 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 2: with little, tiny companies, like we just buy those companies. 190 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 2: So if that's on the radar for you, if that's 191 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 2: something that's possible, then we should get together. And I thought, 192 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 2: maybe that's right, Maybe that is how this is going 193 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 2: to end up playing out, so we started moving forward. 194 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 3: This was your first big win, probably financially and probably 195 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 3: image wise and accomplishment. How did it change your own 196 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 3: self image? 197 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 2: You know, it's a boost because you feel like this 198 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:56,199 Speaker 2: thing that you've been laboring over in the shadows has 199 00:09:56,240 --> 00:09:58,959 Speaker 2: been noticed. It was clear to me also that it 200 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 2: was going to be fun process, that I was going 201 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 2: to learn something. I was going to learn something from you, 202 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 2: I was going to learn something from the people on 203 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:08,439 Speaker 2: the deal. It was a new chapter to think about 204 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 2: taking this thing and bringing it into another company. 205 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 3: You and I became pretty good pals after the AOL days, 206 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:18,680 Speaker 3: and you always had a good story about something, And 207 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 3: I remember you said, you know, I'm thinking about how 208 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:23,200 Speaker 3: I'm going to make a documentary about the clowns for 209 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 3: kids parties. Then the next time I saw you and 210 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 3: ask you how that film was coming along, you said, well, 211 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 3: it taken a strange and unexpected turn. Can you tell 212 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 3: us the story of capturing the Freedman's which, by the way, 213 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 3: was nominated for an Academy Award in One Sun Dance 214 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:41,679 Speaker 3: and a bunch of other awards. 215 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 2: It was a very strange ride and a wonderful ride 216 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 2: in a lot of ways, because, as I said, I 217 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 2: was a magician when I was twelve years old, I 218 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:52,720 Speaker 2: could charge thirty five dollars and I could go to 219 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 2: people's houses and entertain their children at the birthday party. 220 00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 2: I had moved on and stopped doing that when I 221 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 2: was twelve, Yet these people were always in my mind 222 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 2: because they were interesting characters. You know, they call each 223 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 2: other by their clown names and real life, and Silly 224 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:09,679 Speaker 2: Billy is best friends with Princess Priscilla, and when they 225 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:12,320 Speaker 2: have issues in their relationship, they go to Professor Putter. 226 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 2: And I thought, this is a crazy, amazing community. I 227 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 2: bet there's a lot of humanity there. I bet if 228 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:21,560 Speaker 2: I go talk to these people, I'll find an interesting story. 229 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 2: So I reached out to many of them and ultimately 230 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 2: settled on this guy, Silly Billy, who was the number 231 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 2: one guy in New York. 232 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 3: And I remember Silly Billy from my kids. 233 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:34,559 Speaker 2: Yeah, And if you were if it was a fancy 234 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 2: Park Avenue family, if you didn't hire Silly Billy, you 235 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 2: were not keeping up with the rest of the people 236 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 2: on Park Avenue. And I remember I kind of held 237 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 2: off on talking to him because I knew that he 238 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:46,679 Speaker 2: had a big ego, and I thought if I called 239 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:48,960 Speaker 2: him right off the bat, he would torture me. So 240 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 2: I waited until I talked to everybody else, all of 241 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 2: his competitors, and finally I called him and I said, 242 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 2: you know, I'm thinking I'm making this film and he said, well, 243 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 2: it's not much of a film without me in it. 244 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 2: And I said, okay, well fair enough. You know, do 245 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 2: you want to participate? Well, yeah, okay, come on over. 246 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:09,319 Speaker 2: So I started to interview him, and ultimately I discovered 247 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 2: that he had a secret story and that his sort 248 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 2: of clown persona was something that he had been living 249 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 2: under for all these years. And I never thought there 250 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 2: was anything sinister about him, but I learned very quickly 251 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 2: that his family had been the target of a massive 252 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 2: criminal case where they had been accused of what at 253 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 2: the time was called a mass sex abuse case, that 254 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 2: they'd been accused of molesting hundreds of children. And I thought, well, 255 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 2: this is an incredibly deep and complicated situation where you 256 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 2: have somebody who's New York's number one children's entertainer and 257 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:46,960 Speaker 2: his family is one of the most notorious families in 258 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 2: the history of New York. And then as I got 259 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:50,959 Speaker 2: deeper into it, I found out there was a lot 260 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 2: more to the story, and in fact, it wasn't what 261 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 2: I thought when I first looked into it. And I 262 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:57,440 Speaker 2: went back to him and I said, you've sort of 263 00:12:57,520 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 2: hinted things to me, just to let you know I 264 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 2: did figure it out. And eventually he said to me, well, 265 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 2: if that's what you're making a movie about, I don't 266 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 2: know how I feel about that, but I probably should 267 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 2: tell you that when my family was the subject of 268 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 2: this big criminal investigation and the police came and knocked 269 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 2: down the door of our house in Great Neck Long Island, 270 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 2: I had just bought a video camera and I started 271 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:24,560 Speaker 2: recording the family falling apart, and that was one of 272 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 2: the most unique pieces of video, or about twenty two 273 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 2: hours of the most intimate, most upsetting, internal family discussions, 274 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:37,839 Speaker 2: and they really traced what was happening to the family, 275 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 2: and that became a really important part of the film. 276 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 2: So the film shifted tremendously from what I originally thought 277 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:44,559 Speaker 2: to what it became. 278 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 3: You ever feel guilty about having that insider access, I mean, 279 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 3: what kind of emotions come up because suddenly you're right 280 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 3: in the middle of it. 281 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I found myself in that situation a lot. 282 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 2: I think that I come to it with an open heart. 283 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 2: I try to be fair to people. In that case, 284 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 2: it was up to silly Billy. It was up to 285 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 2: David Friedman to decide whether to let me use that material. 286 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 2: There was a multi month period when he had shown 287 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:16,679 Speaker 2: me the material. I knew how powerful it was, and 288 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 2: he had not yet decided whether he was going to 289 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 2: give it to me or not. 290 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 3: What lesson did you learn about product creation with this film? 291 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 3: I mean, we all talk in business about pivots. That's 292 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 3: a hell of a pivot. 293 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 2: I think the most important thing for me is always 294 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 2: just to try to follow my intuition. There were many 295 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 2: times when I noticed little things about the story and 296 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 2: they made me curious, and I tried to stay open, 297 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 2: and I tried to be a good listener, because people 298 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 2: really do want to tell you their story. I remember 299 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 2: Al Masles, the great documentary filmmaker, said to me when 300 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 2: I was in the middle of capturing the Friedman's and 301 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 2: I was worried that I was going to expose this 302 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 2: family in a way, and they had had already been 303 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 2: very traumatized. You know, whatever you thought about them. They 304 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 2: had really been very damaged by it, and he said, 305 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 2: nobody wants to die without telling their story. You're doing 306 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 2: them a favor, and you're going to do it with 307 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 2: fairness and with love. 308 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 3: Catfish the movie, it's also a TV show? How about 309 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 3: that one? Give us the origin there and here you 310 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 3: are dealing with the unexpected again. 311 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 2: This is a very strange way that you and I 312 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 2: crossed paths again, because that would never have happened if 313 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 2: it weren't for you, guys. I was in Los Angeles 314 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 2: working on a film and Nancy said to me, you know, 315 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 2: the Pittmans are calling and they sent you this thing 316 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 2: and there's this DVD. And I remember thinking, oh, right, 317 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 2: I got that DVD. I promised that I would watch it, 318 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 2: so I just started watching it at about midnight, and 319 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 2: I couldn't take my eyes off this footage. And it 320 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 2: wasn't yet a film, but it was the beginnings of something. 321 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 2: And it was a story about a guy, Neim Shulman, 322 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 2: who was a friend of yours and his brother and 323 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 2: their friend, and how this eight year old girl had 324 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 2: sent Neiva Facebook message saying Hey, I'm only eight, but 325 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 2: I'm a painter. I saw one of your photographs, and 326 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 2: I'd like to do a painting of it, would you mind? 327 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 2: You've said, okay, you can do it, and she did 328 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 2: this painting, and a few months later she sends him 329 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 2: the painting and it's quite good, perhaps curiously strangely good 330 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 2: for an eight year old, And they get into a 331 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 2: conversation with her mother, and the filmmakers start filming it, 332 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 2: and they meet not just her mother, but also her 333 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 2: sister who's nineteen, and a whole constellation of other people 334 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 2: in this little girl's life, and at some point it 335 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 2: becomes clear that maybe the story is not as innocent 336 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 2: as we thought, and then the boys go on a 337 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 2: road trip out to Ishpeming, Michigan, to discover what's really 338 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 2: going on and what's really behind this eight year old painter. 339 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 2: The story was so gripping when I was watching it, 340 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 2: and it wasn't even together yet, and I remember thinking 341 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 2: I can help, and we can help bring this thing 342 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 2: to the screen in a more substantial way, and we 343 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:06,439 Speaker 2: agreed to work together on it. And then it was 344 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:08,160 Speaker 2: a sun dance, and then it was a big hit, 345 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 2: and then it turned into this television show. But it's 346 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:12,880 Speaker 2: another one of those stories that you think is going 347 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:14,920 Speaker 2: one way and then goes a very different way. 348 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:17,640 Speaker 3: Okay, I'm gonna do one last one and then we'll 349 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:21,680 Speaker 3: get to some other topics. Robert Durst talk about a 350 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:25,640 Speaker 3: strange twist and turn. I remember you made the scriptive 351 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 3: movie about him, and now I probably murdered his wife. 352 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:36,479 Speaker 3: And then he calls you and things pivot, big Pivot, 353 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 3: tell us about it. 354 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:40,200 Speaker 2: So I had been interested in the story of Bob Durst, 355 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 2: who had been suspected of killing three people but never 356 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:47,119 Speaker 2: convicted and in fact, never really even tried for anything 357 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 2: other than one of them, and he had been acquitted. 358 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:53,639 Speaker 2: And I thought that what was perhaps most interesting about 359 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 2: it was that he had this beautiful wife, and in 360 00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty two she disappeared and nobody knew what happened, 361 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:02,359 Speaker 2: and tour and a lot of people suspected him of 362 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:05,919 Speaker 2: killing her. So I started writing a screenplay about that 363 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:10,119 Speaker 2: story and reached out to Bob Durst through his lawyer, 364 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 2: and his lawyer said, oh, Bob's a very private guy, 365 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 2: and you know he wishes you well, but he doesn't 366 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:17,159 Speaker 2: want to participate or help you with your script. And 367 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 2: I said okay, and then we finished the film, and 368 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:24,120 Speaker 2: there had been a little speculation while we were making 369 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:26,680 Speaker 2: the film that while I was with Ryan Gosling and 370 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:30,119 Speaker 2: Kirsten Dunst in Westchester shooting at a train station and 371 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:34,120 Speaker 2: so on the scripted film, that somebody had been kind 372 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 2: of spying on us, that somebody was off in the 373 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 2: bushes or somebody was in a car nearby, and I thought, well, 374 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 2: that's crazy. Ultimately I learned that that was true. And 375 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 2: so the guy who had been so curious about it 376 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 2: was Bob Durst. How old was he at this time, 377 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:52,680 Speaker 2: He was in his late sixties, and so he had 378 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 2: reached out through the distributor of the film, Magnolia Pictures. 379 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 2: Just one day he Amon Bowles, the guy who is 380 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 2: the head of the company, and we used to do 381 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:07,199 Speaker 2: this thing where I would use Bob's voice because he 382 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 2: has a very recognizable voice. So we would just joke 383 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:11,920 Speaker 2: around like that, and I would when I was hanging 384 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:14,159 Speaker 2: up on the fastiar of the voice, I would say 385 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:17,360 Speaker 2: if I was finishing the call, I would say bye bye, 386 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:20,919 Speaker 2: which is how Bob says goodbye, and other things like that. 387 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 2: And so one day Amon gets a phone call and 388 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 2: the assistant comes in and in air quote says, you know, 389 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 2: it's Bob Durst on the phone. And he picks up 390 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 2: the phone, assuming it's me, and he says, oh, Bob, 391 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:34,440 Speaker 2: I'm glad you're calling. And the guy on the phone says, 392 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 2: who am I talking to? And Amon says, oh, this 393 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:41,160 Speaker 2: is Amon Bolts. Who is this? This is Robert Durst. 394 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:44,919 Speaker 2: So Amon was very very nervous about this, and he 395 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:47,399 Speaker 2: called me and he said, listen, Bob Durst wants to 396 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 2: get in touch with you. And he put us in touch. 397 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:53,320 Speaker 2: And because I had Bob's cell phone number, because he 398 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:55,719 Speaker 2: had made the first call, I was able to record 399 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 2: the first call I ever made to him. He and 400 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:00,920 Speaker 2: I started talking and he said, well, you know, I 401 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 2: want to see the movie. I've heard good things about 402 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 2: the movie. I said, great, I want to show it 403 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 2: to you. I went out to LA I showed it 404 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 2: to him in a screening room. He called me right 405 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 2: after he saw it and he said, I want you 406 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 2: to know I like the movie very much, and let's 407 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:16,440 Speaker 2: talk about doing something together. We started talking about maybe 408 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 2: doing an interview, and finally I did sit down with 409 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:22,679 Speaker 2: him for three days in California and interviewed him about 410 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 2: all these subjects. That you know, camera rolling when you 411 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 2: oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We had three cameras because 412 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:30,120 Speaker 2: I knew it was so unusual that somebody was in 413 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 2: his position and would be willing to talk about and 414 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 2: be asked questions about these three murders. And his position 415 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:39,639 Speaker 2: was I didn't do any of these murders, but I thought, well, 416 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:42,920 Speaker 2: he probably did, and I'm fascinated to see how he's 417 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:45,400 Speaker 2: going to describe these things to me. So we did 418 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:48,160 Speaker 2: these three days of interviews, and then it became clear 419 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 2: to me that it was going to require a reinvestigation 420 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 2: of the case, that I might be able to find 421 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:56,359 Speaker 2: things that the police hadn't found. And then in fact 422 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 2: we did, and we discovered a piece of evidence that 423 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 2: tied him to the mur. 424 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 3: Like true crime podcasts before their time, Yeah, yeah, solve 425 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:05,480 Speaker 3: the murder. Yeah. 426 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 2: It was a very unusual situation, and it was really 427 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:12,119 Speaker 2: the first among the very first times that HBO or 428 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:15,639 Speaker 2: a broadcaster like that had decided it was okay to 429 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 2: do a six part documentary series. Because it was so 430 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 2: much gripping material in it, there was no way to 431 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,439 Speaker 2: do it. It's just a film, So it ended up 432 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 2: being this sort of behemoth and then what's unique about 433 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:30,239 Speaker 2: it is that in the last episode he confesses, and 434 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 2: he confesses in a very unusual way, accidentally on a 435 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 2: hot mic in the bathroom, because I think he was 436 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:40,360 Speaker 2: so burdened by this information, and I think he did, 437 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,399 Speaker 2: in his own way, feel guilty and feel that he 438 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:45,879 Speaker 2: had killed the person that probably loved him most in 439 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 2: the world, his wife. And so when I finished the 440 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 2: conversation and I show him the evidence, he goes in 441 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:54,920 Speaker 2: the bathroom seconds later and he says, there it is, 442 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 2: You're caught. And then a few minutes later he's rambling, 443 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:00,720 Speaker 2: because he does talk to himself. He's rambling in the 444 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:04,400 Speaker 2: bathroom and he says, killed them all, of course, and 445 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 2: that became headline news. It was literally in the front 446 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:09,239 Speaker 2: page of New York Times, I think three times in 447 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,680 Speaker 2: a row this story. And he was arrested the day 448 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 2: before the final episode aired on HBO. That's never happened. 449 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:18,639 Speaker 3: And he was preparing to leave the country, correct, and 450 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:21,120 Speaker 3: he was getting ready to go to Cuba. You went 451 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 3: through a long period with Durst in your life, eighteen years. 452 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,680 Speaker 3: How did your family react sharing you with that obsession. 453 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 2: Well, I remember the last episode was sort of in 454 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 2: the offing, and Bob knew for a period of time 455 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 2: that the show was going to be very bad for him. 456 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:42,880 Speaker 2: In the beginning, I think he thought, well, this will 457 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 2: be fun. It'll be the me show. I can say 458 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:47,920 Speaker 2: whatever I want and they'll just film it and it'll 459 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 2: go on television. So for him, I think there was 460 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 2: a you know, there was just a narcissistic thrill to it. 461 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:57,480 Speaker 2: But as it was clear to him that I had 462 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 2: found this evidence, and as I showed him the evidence, 463 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 2: he started to get more and more anxious about it. 464 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 2: And then my family started to get more anxious about him, 465 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 2: knowing that because he hadn't been arrested, and at one 466 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 2: point the FBI was trailing him, and I had an 467 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 2: FBI agent that I was talking to all the time, 468 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:12,880 Speaker 2: and then one day he called me up he said, yeah, 469 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 2: we lost him, and so that morning I think I 470 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 2: got a security detail. And I remember meeting with my 471 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:21,960 Speaker 2: daughter the night before. We were having dinner and I 472 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 2: said she was little at the time, and I said 473 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,119 Speaker 2: to her, just so you know, tomorrow we're going to 474 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:28,200 Speaker 2: have some other people with us when we go take 475 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 2: you to school, and she immediately started crying. So she 476 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 2: knew that it was an unusual time. 477 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:37,199 Speaker 3: More of math and magic right after this quick break. 478 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 3: Welcome back to math and Magic. Let's hear more from 479 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,920 Speaker 3: my conversation with Andrew Dureki. Let's go back in time. 480 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,160 Speaker 3: I want to explore your origins. You were a kid 481 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 3: of the sixties, seventies, and I guess early eighties. Tell 482 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:58,119 Speaker 3: me about your family and describe how that moment in 483 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,960 Speaker 3: time that fan shaped you. 484 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 2: We went from when I was little living in New Haven, 485 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 2: when my dad was at Yale and my mom was 486 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 2: She was a writer and eventually became a writer of 487 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 2: Time magazine. And the two of them were very important 488 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 2: influences because my dad was very scientific and methodical and 489 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:23,920 Speaker 2: became even more so in a way when he went 490 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 2: into business, because he's very numerous and so to some extent, 491 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,120 Speaker 2: my dad was the math and my mom was the magic. 492 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 2: And I think that I always listened to both of them, 493 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,920 Speaker 2: and I always had both of those voices in my ear. 494 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 2: And then we moved to New York because my dad 495 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:42,359 Speaker 2: was starting a business. It was going to grow to 496 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 2: be a big business. My mom was a big influence. 497 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:47,439 Speaker 2: And I think my mom, because she had actually had 498 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 2: been a film critic at Time magazine. My mom thought 499 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,879 Speaker 2: about films, and she showed me films and we talked 500 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:58,159 Speaker 2: about artistic things. My dad does not read fiction, doesn't 501 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,160 Speaker 2: get it, doesn't understand why people read fiction. But those 502 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 2: two pieces I think were very important in giving me 503 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,480 Speaker 2: permission to be interested in both to be okay with 504 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:10,399 Speaker 2: math and to understand the benefit of business, but also 505 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:12,679 Speaker 2: to listen to my artistics side. 506 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 3: What did you learn in childhood that you still use today? 507 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 2: I mean, one thing is that you know my dad 508 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:24,199 Speaker 2: was tough and not always predictable, and he was in 509 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:28,400 Speaker 2: that those early years, very mercurial. You never quite knew 510 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 2: what you were going to get out of him. My 511 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 2: dad was a genius. When he was in Germany as 512 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 2: a child, they used to test out the IQ tests 513 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 2: on him and he scored a two hundred and six, 514 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:41,440 Speaker 2: and so I was. When I was a kid. We 515 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 2: would sit at the dinner table with him and say, okay, Dad, 516 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 2: fifteen six hundred and forty seven divided by one hundred 517 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 2: and forty two nine hundred and thirty, and he would 518 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 2: get like a dope look on his face and he 519 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:57,000 Speaker 2: would say five boy and six nine seven three, And 520 00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,240 Speaker 2: I thought, Okay, well that's what I got here. I 521 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 2: got a brilliant guy who's not always going to be predictable. 522 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,160 Speaker 2: I got good at dealing with complicated personalities. And Bob 523 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 2: Durst is an example of one. Billy Billy is an 524 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 2: example of one. It's something that kind of became a 525 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 2: little bit of a superpower. 526 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 3: You went to Princeton. When you were there, you directed theater, right, 527 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 3: you were clearly going on a path. Why did you 528 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 3: veer off in the business after college? Whant I continue 529 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:24,359 Speaker 3: that with creative bent? 530 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:29,159 Speaker 2: When I was in college, I had been doing a 531 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 2: lot of theater stuff. I had been reading a lot 532 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 2: of theater. I pursued it intellectually, but also directed plays 533 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:42,160 Speaker 2: and produced plays. And interestingly, my senior thesis production, which 534 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 2: was a production of a play called Ubu, not only 535 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:47,439 Speaker 2: had I done this sort of whole artistic thing, but 536 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:49,920 Speaker 2: I decided that I wanted to do a marketing campaign 537 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 2: for it that would be like for a movie. And 538 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 2: so I had everybody on campus wearing these little buttons 539 00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,159 Speaker 2: that said Ubu. Nobody knew what it was, and we 540 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,440 Speaker 2: ended up having sold out run for the entire run. 541 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:03,680 Speaker 2: And that never happens. 542 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 1: You know. 543 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,919 Speaker 2: So my dad saw that happening, and I had a 544 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 2: professor at Princeton who said, I want you to go 545 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:12,960 Speaker 2: to Yale Drama School for directing, because that's going to 546 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,879 Speaker 2: be your thing. And I said that to my dad, 547 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 2: and I think he decided he was going to lobby 548 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 2: against it. And we had dinner together and he said, listen, 549 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:26,600 Speaker 2: we have this big business. It's an incredible learning experience. 550 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 2: I get that you want to do the artistic thing, 551 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,119 Speaker 2: but I want you to come into business for a 552 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 2: year or two. Once you learned what a treasury bill is, 553 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 2: and once you understand something about how you talk to 554 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:40,480 Speaker 2: a lawyer, then even if you decide to be an artist, 555 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 2: you're not going to get screwed like all the other artists, 556 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:47,199 Speaker 2: you know. And it was a pretty compelling argument. He 557 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 2: was selling the biggest of his businesses at that time. 558 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:52,400 Speaker 2: There was a guy that was running it who was brilliant, 559 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 2: and he said, come work for George and you don't 560 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:57,200 Speaker 2: have to deal with me at all, but this guy's 561 00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,200 Speaker 2: going to take you to business school. I put the 562 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,159 Speaker 2: artistic stuff on hold, really because my dad thought it 563 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,399 Speaker 2: was a good idea, and I thought I would listen 564 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,160 Speaker 2: to him. As it turned out, I think it really 565 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 2: was an enormously important choice because I was able to 566 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 2: go back to artistic work after that, but with a 567 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 2: completely different set of tools. 568 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,840 Speaker 3: At one point in your life, you just picked up 569 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 3: and moved to Rome for a while kids everything. What 570 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 3: was that about? 571 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 2: You know, I had sold the business. Thanks to you, 572 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,199 Speaker 2: I was able to go do something completely different. And 573 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 2: I remember thinking, you know, my kids go to private 574 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 2: school in Manhattan, and Nancy and I were thinking, like, 575 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 2: we got to get him out of here and just 576 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 2: get him into a place where they're going to have 577 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 2: a new language and a new frame of reference. And 578 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 2: so we moved to Rome originally for a year, and 579 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:48,719 Speaker 2: you said to me, don't move for two years, And 580 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:50,520 Speaker 2: I said why not? And you said, well, one year 581 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 2: is great, but two years people stop inviting. 582 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 3: You to things. 583 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 2: You're off the radar. And I remember thinking like, he 584 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:57,720 Speaker 2: might be right, but let me see how I feel 585 00:28:57,760 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 2: after a year, And we ended up saying for two years. 586 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 2: But it changed a lot of things in my brain. 587 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,680 Speaker 2: I forced myself to really learn Italian because I wanted 588 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 2: to see the world for a period of time from 589 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 2: a different perspective. It was hugely helpful. It's the smartest 590 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 2: thing we ever did, was just to mix it up 591 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 2: like that and to get into a community where we 592 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 2: had never met anybody before, an apartment that we had 593 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 2: never lived in before, a city that we didn't know 594 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 2: it was really powerful. 595 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 3: Let's hit some topics the creative process. How do you 596 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 3: take an idea and to turn it into something tangible, 597 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 3: whether that's a business, a movie, or a TV show. 598 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 2: I think the most important thing is that you don't 599 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:43,479 Speaker 2: know where anything's going. So I always say, like, you 600 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 2: can't see the inside of the house from the front lawn. 601 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 2: You have to get into the foyer in order to 602 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 2: peek in and see the dining room and the living room. 603 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 2: So you got to do something first. You got to 604 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:56,960 Speaker 2: go try something. If I want to make a movie 605 00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:00,200 Speaker 2: about birthday party clowns, I got to go around myself 606 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 2: and pick up parenting magazines and go look in the 607 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 2: back and see where the magician ads are. There's no 608 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 2: version of it where you can just imagine your way 609 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 2: into it. So I think that's such important thing. With 610 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 2: movie phones, starting by putting up a phone service and 611 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 2: seeing whether anybody would call it, and just telling hundreds 612 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 2: of people instead of millions of people and seeing whether 613 00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 2: it picked up. So the working model being able to 614 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 2: get something on its feet that I think is really important. 615 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 2: Just getting your feet wet and feeling okay about not 616 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,960 Speaker 2: knowing where it's going, not getting panicky about that, just 617 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 2: saying yeah, I don't know. I'm writing this essay. I 618 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:39,080 Speaker 2: don't know what the end is going to be. Just 619 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 2: going to keep chiseling away at it. 620 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:45,080 Speaker 3: Corporate culture, you built one of movie phone and I 621 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 3: suspect on all of your movies TV shows you also 622 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 3: have a culture of that group. What does the culture 623 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 3: do for you? How do you build it? How do 624 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 3: you use it? 625 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 2: I always say in the very beginning, something in the 626 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 2: first group meeting or whatever that lets people know two things. 627 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 2: One is I have an idea of where we're going, 628 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 2: but I don't know where we're going. And the reason 629 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:12,920 Speaker 2: I'm hiring the best people, and you guys are all distinguished, incredible, 630 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 2: talented people, is because I really want to hear from you. 631 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 2: I would say ten percent of the people take that seriously. 632 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 2: Ninety percent of the people still sit quietly meeting after meeting, 633 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,720 Speaker 2: and it's always an effort to figure out who are 634 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 2: the ten exers, the people we used to talk about 635 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 2: at AOL. Who are the people that are just head 636 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 2: and shoulders, bigger contributors and nurture those people. You go 637 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 2: in that first meeting and you want everybody to contribute, 638 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 2: and pretty quickly you realize a lot of people are 639 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 2: just too shy to do it. And every once in 640 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 2: a while you get a really shy person who's all 641 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 2: so brilliant, and that person, if you can access them, 642 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:51,800 Speaker 2: that's a lunch that you want to keep having or whatever. 643 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 2: A big part of it is just figuring out where 644 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:55,959 Speaker 2: is the talent, Where are the people that are going 645 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 2: to bring you these ideas that are going to make 646 00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 2: your thing work because you're not going to be able 647 00:31:59,080 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 2: to do it on your own. 648 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 3: We couldn't have a conversation without mentioning two letters AI. 649 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:09,000 Speaker 3: What's it going to do to the movie and TV 650 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:11,880 Speaker 3: business and making the product? 651 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 2: I'll tell you what I'm seeing right now, and it's 652 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 2: fascinating is we're using AI every day in making a documentary. 653 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 2: We're making the Part two of the Jinx right now, 654 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 2: and it's an enormous production and hundreds of subjects that 655 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:32,360 Speaker 2: are being interviewed I would never use AI in a 656 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 2: finished film. I would never say, Oh, Bob Pittman just 657 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 2: did an interview and I made him say something he 658 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:41,240 Speaker 2: didn't say. Obviously, that would be a total breach of everything. 659 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 2: But if I do a three hour interview with you 660 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:49,600 Speaker 2: and you say everything except for the one remark I 661 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 2: need you to say to conclude your thing, I can 662 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:56,120 Speaker 2: take your voice and make you say it, and then 663 00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 2: when I'm watching the rough cut, there you are and 664 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 2: you're saying it. If I want to use it, I 665 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 2: will come back to you and I'll say, hey, is 666 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:05,520 Speaker 2: this something that you feel comfortable saying? Or say it 667 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 2: in your own words. So right now they're AI lines 668 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,120 Speaker 2: that are going into that film that will never make 669 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,040 Speaker 2: it into the final film. But the fact that I 670 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:18,640 Speaker 2: can have them in the rough cut means I can 671 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 2: move much faster in making the film. That's the big 672 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 2: ethical consideration. There's no question that there's a filmmaker sitting 673 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:27,200 Speaker 2: there right now who's saying, well, I wish I could 674 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 2: get Donald Trump to say this thing, or I wish 675 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:32,520 Speaker 2: I could get Joe Biden to say this thing, and 676 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 2: they probably use it. Right we're seeing that already, we're 677 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,080 Speaker 2: seeing deep fakes, and we're seeing people saying things that 678 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:40,160 Speaker 2: they didn't say. So that's the line is how do 679 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:42,360 Speaker 2: you make sure that you're doing it ethically, but that 680 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:46,360 Speaker 2: you're using it for the incredible acceleration that it lets 681 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 2: you get. 682 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:49,920 Speaker 3: Let's go to some advice for someone who dreams of 683 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,920 Speaker 3: being a filmmaker. What advice can you give them? 684 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:57,720 Speaker 2: I would say, especially today, the technology is no longer 685 00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 2: an impediment. Right Nolden days used to have to say, well, 686 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 2: I'm going to have to buy this camera, and I 687 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 2: have to buy some film, and I need nine people 688 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 2: to do it. You don't really need that. There's there's 689 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 2: stuff in the jinks in this next season that's coming 690 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 2: out that was shot on this iPhone, and you can't 691 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:17,080 Speaker 2: shoot a whole movie in an extremely cheap way, but 692 00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:19,759 Speaker 2: you can do a lot of experimentation and you can 693 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:22,320 Speaker 2: figure out whether you have something or not. So I 694 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,239 Speaker 2: would say, same thing. Get your feet wet. You know, 695 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:27,919 Speaker 2: you got to just go and try the first thing. 696 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:29,600 Speaker 2: You may get it wrong, you may throw it in 697 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:31,760 Speaker 2: the trash, but you're going to learn something. 698 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 3: So for the major studios, you're on the front lines. 699 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,479 Speaker 3: You always spend a lot of time on the cutting edge. 700 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:43,840 Speaker 3: What's new? What advice can you give them from that perspective? 701 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,600 Speaker 2: Oh, it's so hard, right, because they make such enormous 702 00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 2: mistakes all the time. They always have. They're trying to 703 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:53,360 Speaker 2: do the best they can. My friend was telling me 704 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:56,400 Speaker 2: the story of you know, Titanic was it Fox? And 705 00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:59,440 Speaker 2: it was this like incredible investment. There were two hundred 706 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:01,680 Speaker 2: million dollars into it. Nobody had ever made a film 707 00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:05,360 Speaker 2: like that before, and Rupert or whoever said, well, we 708 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 2: got to lay this thing off. This is going to 709 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:08,799 Speaker 2: be a disaster. It's probably going to go down like 710 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 2: the Titanic. They sell fifty percent of it, and then 711 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:13,920 Speaker 2: of course the movie makes a billion dollars and everybody 712 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,960 Speaker 2: is like, who's getting fired for this terribly stupid decision. 713 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:21,359 Speaker 2: So whenever they're big bets like that, it's incredibly hard 714 00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 2: to predict anything. I'm amazed that they do it and 715 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,880 Speaker 2: keep their jobs. The thing I guess I would say 716 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 2: is they got to hire a lot of kids that 717 00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:33,080 Speaker 2: got to surround themselves with people that are younger than 718 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:37,600 Speaker 2: studio executives, just because that's where the ideas are. You 719 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:39,879 Speaker 2: want to welcome those people. You don't want to make 720 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:41,800 Speaker 2: it hard for them to climb up the ranks. 721 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 3: So if you could go back in time, what advice 722 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:48,200 Speaker 3: would you give your twenty one year old self. 723 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,960 Speaker 2: Ah, I think I was hard on myself. I think 724 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 2: I was beating myself with a big switch all the time. 725 00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:00,160 Speaker 2: And I think you know that you give your a 726 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:03,920 Speaker 2: lot of scars by doing that. But it's not easy 727 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:08,880 Speaker 2: to have a successful business, and you sort of feel 728 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:11,960 Speaker 2: like you have to be your own task master. Everything 729 00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:15,759 Speaker 2: seems urgent, everything's so critical. Could have thought differently about 730 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:18,279 Speaker 2: it at twenty one, I don't know, but I guess 731 00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 2: I would say, you know, I maybe be nicer to me. 732 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,920 Speaker 3: So we end each episode of Mathemagic with a shout 733 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,320 Speaker 3: out to the best on both ends of the spectrum 734 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:32,520 Speaker 3: of business and marketing. The best at the analytics, science 735 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:36,960 Speaker 3: and math, your dad, the best at sheer, creative promotions, etc. 736 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:38,719 Speaker 3: Who gets your shout out for. 737 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:41,680 Speaker 2: Each The thing I think is so special about my 738 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:45,719 Speaker 2: dad is that on the business side is that he 739 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:49,560 Speaker 2: really has no orthodoxy. If you walk in and you say, 740 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,839 Speaker 2: you know, we should buy this company because blah blah 741 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:56,760 Speaker 2: blah blah blah, he'll say, what if we just sold 742 00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,880 Speaker 2: the company like he just flips it all the time. 743 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:03,960 Speaker 2: On the marketing side, I think it's the improvisational people. 744 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:06,880 Speaker 2: There's a guy that I love, a guy named Deacon Webster, 745 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 2: who was the head of creative at an advertising agency 746 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:13,560 Speaker 2: called Mad Dogs and Englishmen. He still runs his own 747 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:19,320 Speaker 2: agency in New York, and whenever I'm needing to figure 748 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:21,359 Speaker 2: out how to make something cool or how to get 749 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,120 Speaker 2: it in front of more people, I usually just call 750 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:25,719 Speaker 2: him up and I try to have lunch with him, 751 00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:27,799 Speaker 2: and He's worked on a lot of stuff with me, 752 00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:31,360 Speaker 2: so I like his ability to just think freely. Certainly 753 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:35,160 Speaker 2: on the marketing side, that's so important because freshness is everything, 754 00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:37,320 Speaker 2: you know. It's so important for somebody to see something 755 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:40,839 Speaker 2: that is not predictable, and I think it draws people in. 756 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,920 Speaker 2: So those creative people that are willing to think outside 757 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,000 Speaker 2: the box are really precious. 758 00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:50,040 Speaker 3: Andrew, you have always been one of the most curious 759 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:53,279 Speaker 3: people I know. You're blessed with being, as we see today, 760 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:57,200 Speaker 3: a fascinating storyteller as well. You've managed to put both 761 00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:01,439 Speaker 3: of those together, have a wonderfully successful business life, two 762 00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:05,160 Speaker 3: smallest personal life. Thanks for sharing your stories and insights 763 00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:07,080 Speaker 3: today about how you did it and what you learned. 764 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:13,120 Speaker 3: Here are a few things I've picked up from my 765 00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:17,520 Speaker 3: conversation with Andrew. One plan on pivoting. As Andrew says, 766 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:19,840 Speaker 3: you can't see the inside of the house from the 767 00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:23,239 Speaker 3: front lawn. Starting a project with an open mind and 768 00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:26,160 Speaker 3: allowing it to evolve can ensure you end up with 769 00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:32,440 Speaker 3: the best possible outcome. Two. Sometimes collaboration beats competition. Instead 770 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:34,520 Speaker 3: of trying to beat out another company with the same 771 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:38,280 Speaker 3: model as moviefone, they combined efforts for a huge payoff. 772 00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:42,880 Speaker 3: Andrew's documentary work tells a similar story. Close relationships with 773 00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:45,960 Speaker 3: his subjects have made his work all that more compelling. 774 00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:49,640 Speaker 3: Collaboration can take on many forms, and you may wind 775 00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:52,520 Speaker 3: up working with someone you'd never expected to and the 776 00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:56,480 Speaker 3: rewards may be bigger than you ever anticipated too. Three. 777 00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:00,640 Speaker 3: Embrace changing technology. Andrew may not use use AI in 778 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:02,920 Speaker 3: the final cut of his films, but that doesn't mean 779 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:06,040 Speaker 3: it's not an asset during production. AI can be used 780 00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:10,480 Speaker 3: to accelerate projects and make workflow more seamless. Leaning into 781 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:14,040 Speaker 3: innovative tech doesn't have to mean compromising the integrity of 782 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:17,359 Speaker 3: your work, or even turning it upside down. Embracing new 783 00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:19,960 Speaker 3: tools for innovation can allow you to do the work 784 00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:24,080 Speaker 3: you excel at, just more efficiently. I'm Bob Pittman. Thanks 785 00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:24,680 Speaker 3: for listening. 786 00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:30,960 Speaker 1: That's it for today's episode. Thanks so much for listening 787 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:34,360 Speaker 1: to Math and Magic, a production of iHeart Podcasts. The 788 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:37,320 Speaker 1: show is hosted by Bob Pittman. Special thanks to Sidney 789 00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:40,520 Speaker 1: Rosenbluint for booking and wrangling our wonderful talent, which is 790 00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:45,560 Speaker 1: no small feat. Mathemagic's producers are Emily Meronoth and Jessica Crimechitch. 791 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:49,000 Speaker 1: It is mixed and mastered by Beheed Fraser. Our executive 792 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:52,040 Speaker 1: producers are Nikki Etoor and Ali Perry, and of course 793 00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:55,839 Speaker 1: a big thanks to Gail Raoul, Eric Angel Noel and 794 00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:59,000 Speaker 1: everyone who helped bring this show to your ears. Until 795 00:39:59,040 --> 00:39:59,480 Speaker 1: next time,