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Speaker 1: You're listening to Bloomberg Law with June Grosso from Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 1: Former President Donald Trump bid farewell to Washington today, the

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Speaker 1: first president in modern history to boycott his successors inauguration.

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Speaker 1: What's the road ahead for a man who has never

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Speaker 1: adhered to political norms? Joining me is Tina Davis, the

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Speaker 1: executive editor of Bloomberg Legal News. You know what's been

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Speaker 1: happening with the Trump Empire while he's been president. If

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Speaker 1: you look at kind of all of the holdings of

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Speaker 1: Trump organization, the president came into office worth about three billion.

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Speaker 1: And even though we've had a brilliant economy and excluding

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Speaker 1: the pandemic for most of the four years of his term,

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Speaker 1: and there's also a massive tax cut program that was

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Speaker 1: implemented under his administration, he's actually leaving about five million

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Speaker 1: dollars poorer than he came in. And that's most of

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Speaker 1: it because of the downturn in the real estate market

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Speaker 1: and obviously the downturn in the tourism business. The come

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Speaker 1: as a resultable pandemic. This is not a great time

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Speaker 1: to be in real estate, either commercial or residential, certainly

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Speaker 1: in New York City, and it's not a great time

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Speaker 1: to be offering things like golf trips for a lot

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Speaker 1: of populace that's still locked down, and his company carries

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Speaker 1: a billion dollars in debt. Is he personally liable for

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Speaker 1: that and can he cover it? He's not personally liable

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Speaker 1: for all of that debt. He's personally liable for about

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Speaker 1: three million dollars of that debt, and that's being held

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Speaker 1: by Deutsche Bank, which is looking to extricate itself from

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Speaker 1: its relationship with the president. So he's gonna have to

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Speaker 1: find another lender to take on that debt, or at

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Speaker 1: least Deutsche Bank is going to have to find someone

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Speaker 1: to offload that debt too. But the other thing to

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Speaker 1: think about when you're looking at the stet load, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's not a huge stebt load in comparison to the

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Speaker 1: values of the properties. And the other thing to think

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Speaker 1: about is, you know, you don't have banks right now

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Speaker 1: that are desperate to be in the real estate business.

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Speaker 1: Nobody's desperate to be in the real estate business. So

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Speaker 1: that might also help you know, again, if if it

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Speaker 1: comes to a worsening financial situation, you know, you as

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Speaker 1: a bank necessarily want to own a hotel right now,

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Speaker 1: or want to own a huge commercial property at the moment.

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Speaker 1: That also means it's going to be difficult to sell

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Speaker 1: assets to raise money. Correct And look, I think, as

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Speaker 1: I said, this is not there's no indication at present

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Speaker 1: that there are kind of severe financial constraints facing Trump.

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Speaker 1: As he returns to Trump's word, but it is not

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Speaker 1: a great time to be in these businesses. He's in

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Speaker 1: prior years made a lot of money from licensing his name.

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Speaker 1: It's not clear exactly what that will look like going forward,

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Speaker 1: since we have seen a lot of companies distanced themselves

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Speaker 1: in the aftermath of the capital siege. So he's got

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Speaker 1: a base of of assets. Whether or not he can

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Speaker 1: build on that as is an open question, and how

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Speaker 1: he will build on that is an open question. He's

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Speaker 1: been counted out many times before and he's managed to

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Speaker 1: come back from those. Tell us a little bit about

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Speaker 1: his comebacks. Yeah, absolutely. I mean when you think of

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump, it's always everything is done in a rather

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Speaker 1: big way. So you've had the spectacle their bankruptcies after

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Speaker 1: he overextended himself. You know, there was a Trump Airline

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Speaker 1: at one point. There are a lot of businesses that

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Speaker 1: he got into and was not entirely successful with and

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Speaker 1: in fact, if you sort of think about his most

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Speaker 1: recent rise, you know, when he got the job on

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Speaker 1: The Apprentice, he was not necessarily in the best financial

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Speaker 1: position of his career. That job helped launch him into

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Speaker 1: another kind of stratosphere, both in terms of earnings and

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Speaker 1: in terms of having his face before the American public,

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Speaker 1: which I think was incredibly helpful as he began this

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Speaker 1: presidential run. And again if you think about comebacks, and

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Speaker 1: nobody thought he would win in twenty sixteen, and he

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Speaker 1: managed to overcome all the skeptics and become the first

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Speaker 1: businessman president who never held an elected office before. So

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Speaker 1: you can never really again sort of count him out.

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Speaker 1: I think that's what we've learned. It has a lot

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Speaker 1: changed since the Capital riots. For example, before the riots,

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Speaker 1: there was talk of a Trump net work. Yeah, is

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Speaker 1: that more difficult now or is it out of the question.

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Speaker 1: I think it's not entirely out of the question. And

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Speaker 1: I guess the reason I would say that is because

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Speaker 1: we've seen so many times that businesses and corporations have

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Speaker 1: distanced themselves and then come back to him. I mean,

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Speaker 1: thinking the immediate aftermath of what happened in Charlottesville. There

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Speaker 1: are a lot of people who quit from the various

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Speaker 1: sort of test force that were part of advising the

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Speaker 1: White House, and then those people eventually came back around.

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Speaker 1: So if you're talking about, I think for media and

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Speaker 1: social media specifically, that's one of the places where we

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Speaker 1: saw perhaps the greatest reaction when the President lost the

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Speaker 1: megaphone that he had in Twitter. That's a real difference,

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Speaker 1: you know, that's a very direct way that he had

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Speaker 1: of reaching out to all of his followers get eighty

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Speaker 1: eight million followers on Twitter. Losing that that microphone, that megaphone,

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Speaker 1: as you will, is a real sort of game changer

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Speaker 1: in terms of you don't really hear as much him,

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Speaker 1: and it will be very interesting going forward to see

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Speaker 1: what he uses to replace that. And perhaps that is

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Speaker 1: a media channel. He's talked before about wanting to create

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Speaker 1: some sort of network that would compete with Fox, which

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Speaker 1: he has integrated as you know, not being conservative enough

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Speaker 1: from his view. But perhaps it's also a social media channel.

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Speaker 1: You know, we've seen Parlor shut down and then ultimately

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Speaker 1: able to get back online. Maybe there's another way for

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Speaker 1: him to connect with folks. And he has a tremendous

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Speaker 1: amount of information that he's gotten just from his app.

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Speaker 1: So you know, if you are a follower of Trump

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Speaker 1: and you've downloaded his app, he has your phone number,

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Speaker 1: your email. He has a lot of great information that

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Speaker 1: if you're looking to monetize the base, you have the

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Speaker 1: potential ability to do that. You sort of think about,

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Speaker 1: how do you create potentially a new social media base,

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Speaker 1: how do you reach your followers if you're not able

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Speaker 1: to use the normal methods of Facebook or Twitter. And

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Speaker 1: has there actually been talked about a revival of The Apprentice?

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Speaker 1: There has, although he said in the asked he wouldn't

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Speaker 1: do it. But as I said before, I don't think

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Speaker 1: that you ever completely discount any possibility when it comes

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Speaker 1: to this president. He's done so many things that nobody

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Speaker 1: expected him to do over the past four years and

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Speaker 1: obviously before that as well. He will be looking for

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Speaker 1: some sort of way to connect with the people who

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Speaker 1: believe in him, and whether that's through traditional media, whether

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Speaker 1: that's through building another network, whether it's through taking a

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Speaker 1: stake maybe in one American News or Newsmax, which are

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Speaker 1: two media outlets that have really been supporting him. There's

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Speaker 1: a potential path for him in the years had Simon

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Speaker 1: and Schuster. I think it was canceled their book deal

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Speaker 1: with Senator Josh Holly after the riot. But is a

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Speaker 1: huge book deal for Trump still a possibility. Oh, I

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Speaker 1: would say so. And I think, you know, it's a

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Speaker 1: little bit different canceling a book deal for a senator,

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Speaker 1: and this is again, this is a book deal that

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Speaker 1: was about he was writing about technology companies. I think

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Speaker 1: there will be appetite, kind of regardless for a memoir

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Speaker 1: from the president, which is one of the traditional things

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Speaker 1: that presidents do, aside from playing golf and setting up

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Speaker 1: their presidential libraries. You know, the tradition is that you

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Speaker 1: write a memoir and you usually make several million dollars

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Speaker 1: off of that book deal. I would be really surprised

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Speaker 1: if no one wanted to bid for that memoir, because

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Speaker 1: there is appetite for it. Trump has written several books

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Speaker 1: in the past, including most famously The Art of the Deal.

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Speaker 1: All of those, of course written with ghost writers. But

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Speaker 1: he's shown an interest in book publishing in the past,

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Speaker 1: and I wouldn't expect publishing to turn its back on him,

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Speaker 1: because this would be an interesting book no matter who

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Speaker 1: you supported, No support. It would be an interesting book

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Speaker 1: to read his sort of take on the past four

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Speaker 1: years and talk a little bit about legal exposure. Now,

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Speaker 1: so tell us what some of the possible federal cases

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Speaker 1: against him might be. So the federal cases get more

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Speaker 1: and more interesting. Up until two weeks ago, I would

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Speaker 1: have said that was probably not a great deal of

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Speaker 1: of a chance that the Justice Department would necessarily file

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Speaker 1: charges against him. But in the aftermath of what happened

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Speaker 1: at the spital in January six, he's also potentially facing

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Speaker 1: charges of incitement if the U. S. Attorney in the

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Speaker 1: District of Columbia decides to pursue that. He is facing

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Speaker 1: potential obstruction of justice charges if the Biden administration, if

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Speaker 1: their Justice Department decides to move forward with that. So

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Speaker 1: those are some of the federal charges cases that are

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Speaker 1: outside of the federal jurisdiction. I'm thinking specifically about from

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Speaker 1: a couple of cases in New York. And he has

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Speaker 1: the New York Attorney General looking at his taxes and

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Speaker 1: what he's done there, and you have the Manhattan District

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Speaker 1: Attorney who famously went all the way to Supreme Court

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Speaker 1: to get access to his financial records. He looks into

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Speaker 1: potential fraud by the Trump organization and by Donald Trump himself.

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Speaker 1: As far as the federal cases, you know, before the

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Speaker 1: Capital riot, it was reported that Joe Biden basically wanted

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Speaker 1: to move on. He didn't want the beginning of his

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Speaker 1: presidency tarnished by federal charges against Trump. But has that

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Speaker 1: whole dynamic change since the riot, Well, I think that

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Speaker 1: remains to be seen. I mean, the constant refrain we've

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Speaker 1: gotten from the Biden administration is that they want to

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Speaker 1: try to make what they see as a deliberate break

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Speaker 1: with the policies of the prior administration and tried not

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Speaker 1: to be seen as directing the Justice Department who to

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Speaker 1: prosecute and who not to prosecute. So their approach is that,

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Speaker 1: you know, they plan on being very hands off with

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Speaker 1: the just Justice Department and allowing the Justice Partment to

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Speaker 1: do its work. But again, I think I feel like

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Speaker 1: when you're talking about again, they're not being a huge

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Speaker 1: amount of kind of lock him up chance going on

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Speaker 1: amongst the Biden administration officials. That may have changed. And

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Speaker 1: what's interesting is we heard from the U. S. Attorney

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Speaker 1: in the District of Columbia who was enacting the U

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Speaker 1: S Attorney, but is a Trump appointee that he would

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Speaker 1: not rule out the idea of possibly charging the president,

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Speaker 1: as they have hundreds of cases that are now under

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Speaker 1: their jurisdiction, and they've arrested more than a hundred people

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Speaker 1: in association with what happened on that day. The fact

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Speaker 1: that he wouldn't rule it out, I think it's a

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Speaker 1: very interesting and very telling statement. Is there a possibility

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Speaker 1: of charges from the phone calls that he made to

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Speaker 1: Georgia officials to try to change the election results in

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Speaker 1: that state? Yeah, so we've heard from uh, we've heard

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Speaker 1: at least the idea that the that a prosecutor in

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Speaker 1: Fulton County is looking into those Um, I feel like, you,

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Speaker 1: you know, you obviously need political support for those things,

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Speaker 1: and I'm not sure necessarily that there would be support.

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Speaker 1: Even though that president has attacked numerous officials in Georgia,

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Speaker 1: including the governor and the Secretary of States there, I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure that that they would have kind of the

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Speaker 1: political will to necessarily spend their prosecutors after him. But again,

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Speaker 1: in majority kind of democratic areas, and Fulton County being

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Speaker 1: one of those, you might see someone try to bring

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Speaker 1: a charge a state charge, um, looking at potential election interference.

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Speaker 1: Given what was that on that phone call you mentioned

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Speaker 1: the Manhattan prosecutors lawsuit and the grand jury investigation there

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Speaker 1: there it went to the Supreme Court and the Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court said, yes, the grand jury can get the tax records,

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Speaker 1: but it has to go back and be reviewed. Where

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Speaker 1: is that now? I haven't heard that much about that lately.

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Speaker 1: What point is it at? Yeah, I mean that's a

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Speaker 1: that's a really good question because one of the things

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Speaker 1: we've been thinking about is, you know whether or not

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Speaker 1: on January if somebody is going to go ahead and

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Speaker 1: file charges or you know, unsealing indictment against the president.

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Speaker 1: And just a reminder, the president is not immune from

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Speaker 1: any kind of charges while he's in office. Certainly he's

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Speaker 1: faced several civil cases. Um. There is just sort of

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Speaker 1: the idea or the mindset that you can't criminally charge

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Speaker 1: the US fitting presidents that has never been tested and

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Speaker 1: I don't think it will be in this administration. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: if you think about what's gone back and forth with

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Speaker 1: the Cyrus Fans case, that's actually back up for the

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court for yet another decision. And you know what

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Speaker 1: we're hearing, is that the folks in that office are

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Speaker 1: waiting or having to wait for the Supreme Court decision

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Speaker 1: before they decide you know exactly what they're gonna do

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Speaker 1: with all the information in front of them, because they

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Speaker 1: they're still waiting for a few key legal documents from

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Speaker 1: his financial records. Does he have like different law firms

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Speaker 1: handling different cases. Is some one person in charge of

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Speaker 1: all this litigation defending him? That's a good question. I

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Speaker 1: don't know that there's one single person in charge, and

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Speaker 1: in fact, his representation has been kind of an open question.

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Speaker 1: It's uh. Law firms have backed away under criticism for

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Speaker 1: work as that they've done on behalf of Trump or

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Speaker 1: on behalf of Republicans in the aftermath of the election,

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Speaker 1: if you're challenging the election results, between several white shoe

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Speaker 1: law firms that have decided that they are not going

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Speaker 1: to do business, and in one case, a lawyer who

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Speaker 1: was on the phone with him during that Georgia phone

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Speaker 1: call has parted ways with her law firm because of

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Speaker 1: what happened and because she was taking part of that.

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Speaker 1: So we also don't know exactly who will represent him

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Speaker 1: in his impeachment trial, assuming that goes forward in the Senate.

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Speaker 1: Um and probably that won't happen until after he's out

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Speaker 1: of office. Um. You know, if you sort of think

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Speaker 1: about this is a man who's been who has had

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Speaker 1: an incredibly litigious history. He's kept a lot of lawyers

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Speaker 1: busy over his time. Um, you know, you sort of

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Speaker 1: think about so it's like Mark Kasowitz, who has been

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Speaker 1: one of his um strongest you know allies. You know,

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Speaker 1: does he go back to using the people he was

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Speaker 1: using before who's in the White House. Does he have

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Speaker 1: a new round of lawyers that he turns to. Obviously

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Speaker 1: we know his close with folks like Alan dere Schwartz

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Speaker 1: and um, you know, other people that are equal pundits,

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Speaker 1: maybe more than than practicing a lot of law at

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Speaker 1: the moment. But you know, where did he turn for

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Speaker 1: his legal representation? I think that's a very open question. Also,

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Speaker 1: he has failed to pay a lot of his lawyers

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Speaker 1: in the past, so that may be another consideration in

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Speaker 1: mind when you just saw whether or not to take

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Speaker 1: him on as a client. Well, when you think about that,

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Speaker 1: you think of specifically uh Rudy Giulietti, who has been

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Speaker 1: unbelievably loyal to the President over the past four years, UM,

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Speaker 1: and it was reported that he was seeking twenty thousand

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Speaker 1: dollars a day to represent him in these election cases. UM.

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Speaker 1: And then it was also reported that the president was

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Speaker 1: not looking to pay that amount. So what I will

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Speaker 1: say is, we don't know exactly what's going on there.

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Speaker 1: We did see in the last round of UH campaign

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Speaker 1: documents that had to be officially filed with the federal

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Speaker 1: Election Campaign UM that he was still making payments to

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Speaker 1: the same lawyers that you'd expect to see. We did

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Speaker 1: not see any payments to Giuliani as we're good as

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Speaker 1: of the end of UM I believe the end of November.

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Speaker 1: So we don't know if those bilges haven't come too

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Speaker 1: yet or if we will see something that UM in

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Speaker 1: the next round of campaign documents that are due to

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Speaker 1: be published at the end of this month. We talked

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Speaker 1: about the retail brand and you know whether that's going

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Speaker 1: to take a big hit or not. What about his

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Speaker 1: MAGA merchandise and all those things. Yeah, so as part

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Speaker 1: of a lot of companies kind of walking away from

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Speaker 1: Trump and Trump related entities in the aftermath of January six,

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Speaker 1: we did see the Canadian retail giant Shopify basically say

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Speaker 1: that they would no longer support the sites that we're

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Speaker 1: selling Donald Trump merchandise and the official merchandise specifically, So

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Speaker 1: we did see that part of the website. It's becomes

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Speaker 1: not very functional after Shopify went through its support UM.

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Speaker 1: In fact, it was basically the fight was asking people

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Speaker 1: to email their orders, in which if you've ever done

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Speaker 1: on on shopping, just feels like you're working in the

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Speaker 1: you know, the medieval times. To try to do that UM.

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Speaker 1: Over the weekend, that site did get back up and running.

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Speaker 1: We're not quite sure exactly who the alternative supplier is

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Speaker 1: that they're using to sort of keep the infrastructure working

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Speaker 1: so if they can continue to process payments from that UM.

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Speaker 1: But I mean you can still buy a Maga hat

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Speaker 1: if you want to on his website UM, and and

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Speaker 1: all sorts of other merchandise. So, I mean, this is

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Speaker 1: a president who's never shied away from putting his name

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Speaker 1: on UM a lot of items. I'm thinking of Trump

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Speaker 1: Steaks and Trump Vodka in particular. UM. I would expect

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Speaker 1: that to still be a stream of revenue for him

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Speaker 1: going forward. Thanks Tina. That's Tina Davis, Executive editor of

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Legal News. It was a pardon blitz. In Trump's

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Speaker 1: last twelve hours in office, the former president pardon seventy

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Speaker 1: three people and commuted the sentences of seventy more, joining

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Speaker 1: me as former federal prosecutor Robert Mints Apart in mcarter

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Speaker 1: and English, Bob, the pardon power is one of the

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Speaker 1: most unrestrained powers the president has. The pardon power comes

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Speaker 1: from the first clause of Article to Section two of

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Speaker 1: the Constitution, which provides the President shall have power to

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Speaker 1: grant reprieve and pardons for offenses against the United States,

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Speaker 1: except in cases of impeachment. So this is an extremely

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Speaker 1: broad power. It's vested by the Constitution and the president,

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Speaker 1: and there's very little the Congress can do to constrain it,

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Speaker 1: short than teaching the president is they believe it's an

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Speaker 1: abuse of power. There are some limitations on this very

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Speaker 1: broad pardon power. For example, a president cannot pardon anybody

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Speaker 1: for a state offense. His partnering power only extends the

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Speaker 1: criminal offenses that are federal, and it also does not

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Speaker 1: allow the president to pardon somebody for a civil offense.

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Speaker 1: So again it's limited only to federal criminal offenses. The

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Speaker 1: only explicitit constitutional limitation and the president's pardon power is

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Speaker 1: that a president cannot ardon himself or herself in order

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Speaker 1: to avoid impeachment. Even if that did occur, it would

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Speaker 1: not preclude the House from bringing charges against a president

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Speaker 1: for crimes and misdemeanors that would formant a bill of impeachment,

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Speaker 1: nor would it prevent a Senate ultimately trying the president.

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Speaker 1: How specific does a pardon have to be? Parties typically

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Speaker 1: are given after a person has been convicted of a crime,

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Speaker 1: and then they specifically referenced the crime. So, for example,

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Speaker 1: President Trump had part of Scooter Libby, Paul Manifort, George Papadopolis,

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Speaker 1: and Riser Stone in what is a more typical party

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Speaker 1: In each of those cases, after asserting that a full

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Speaker 1: and unconditional pardon has been given, the pardon that goes

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Speaker 1: on to specify the statutes that each of those individuals

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Speaker 1: were charged with violating that described in detail the punishments

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Speaker 1: they were given. In the case of Michael Flynn, the

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Speaker 1: president's former National Stary advisor, that was quite unusual because

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Speaker 1: it not only pardoned Flynn for a crime for which

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Speaker 1: had guilty, but it also included some very broad language

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Speaker 1: which partnered him for any and all possible offenses within

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Speaker 1: the jurisdiction of the Special Council's investigating authority or leading

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Speaker 1: in any manner to the Special Council's investigation of Russia's

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Speaker 1: attempted interference in the twenty sixteen presidential election and links

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Speaker 1: to the Trump campaign. One of the big surprises was

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Speaker 1: the partnering of Trump's former strategists Steve Bannon, And apparently

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Speaker 1: it was whether or not Trump was going to give

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Speaker 1: that pardon that kept them from announcing the list. Why

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Speaker 1: do you think that was such a controversy for Trump?

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Speaker 1: It's difficult to say what was going on in the

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Speaker 1: President's mind with regard to Steve Bannon. He's had an

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Speaker 1: on again, off again relationship with Mr Bannon over the years,

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Speaker 1: where at one point he was Mr Trump chief strategists

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Speaker 1: and architects of his twenty sixteen presidential campaign, and another

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Speaker 1: point he was on the output the White House. And

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Speaker 1: it may be that the President was trying to decide

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Speaker 1: ultimately whether he thought that a pardon was appropriate here.

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Speaker 1: In this case, Mr Bannon had been charged in August

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Speaker 1: of last year with the fraught defrauding contributors to a

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Speaker 1: privately funded effort to build Mr Trump's wall along the

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Speaker 1: Mexican border. The pardon of Mr benn in this case

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Speaker 1: was notable because among all the pardons that were issued here,

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Speaker 1: and I think there's about a hundred and forty three

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Speaker 1: that were issued today, this was the only one in

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Speaker 1: which an individual who had not yet been convicted of

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Speaker 1: an offense was given a pardon. In this case, Mr

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Speaker 1: Bennon had been charged and he was set to stand trial,

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Speaker 1: but he had not yet been convicted of any crime.

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Speaker 1: On the overwhelming majority of pardons and commutations that have

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Speaker 1: been granted by presidents happened for those individuals who have

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Speaker 1: already been convicted and sentence of criminal activity. There was

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Speaker 1: also a pardon of a Republican mega donor. It seems

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Speaker 1: as if most of the pardons he issued were for

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Speaker 1: someone related to him in some way, connected to him

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Speaker 1: in some way, not out of the blue. There have

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Speaker 1: been controversial partners issued by presidents in the past. For example,

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Speaker 1: President Clinton's pardoned Patty Hurst, the first newspaper heiress, had

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Speaker 1: been involved with a radical weather underground. Clinton also pardoned

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Speaker 1: his half brother Roger Clinton, had been convicted in that

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Speaker 1: of cocaine trafficking. Another example of a pardon that was

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Speaker 1: considered controversial was when President Obama in seen commuted the

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Speaker 1: thirty five year prison sentence of Wiki League's source Kelsey Manning,

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Speaker 1: who was arrested in for releasing information regarding the wars

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Speaker 1: in Iraq and Afghanistan to the Wiki League's website. Perhaps

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Speaker 1: President Clinton's most controversial parton was that of Mark Rich,

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Speaker 1: who was a billionaire fugitive after his ex wife Denise

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Speaker 1: Rich had given generously to Democratic sources, including more than

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Speaker 1: a hundred thousand dollars to support Hillary Clinton's New York

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Speaker 1: Senate run on four in the fifty thousands to President

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Speaker 1: Clinton's presidential library. But in this case, President Trump's pardons

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Speaker 1: has been more closely aligned with people that he knew,

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Speaker 1: either directly or indirectly than most of the other controversial

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Speaker 1: pardoners by prior presidents. For example, one of President's Trump's

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Speaker 1: pardons was of Elliott Brody, a California businessman who was

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Speaker 1: a leading fundraiser for Mr Trump's sixteen campaign and inauguration.

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Speaker 1: Mr Brodie had admitted they accepted nine million dollars in

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Speaker 1: money from a Malaysian financier and that some of that

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Speaker 1: money was paid from an associate to push the Trump

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Speaker 1: administration for the extradition of a Chinese dissident and to

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Speaker 1: drop a case related to an investlement scheme from Malaysian

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Speaker 1: Sovereign Wealth Fund at the United States had accused the

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Speaker 1: malaysiansin interier of engineering. Do a lot of the pardons

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Speaker 1: seemed to involve politicians caught in corruption. There is not

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Speaker 1: necessarily any particular scene that has run through the parties

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Speaker 1: and commutations of sentences that presidents have issued on their

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Speaker 1: way out of office. In this case, we do see

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Speaker 1: a trend for President Trump issuing pardons and commutations of

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Speaker 1: sentences related to a great number of white collar crimes.

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Speaker 1: For example, there were several former political figures among those

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Speaker 1: branded clemency by Mr. Trump. Kwamie Kilpatrick, the former mayor

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Speaker 1: of Detroit, has his sentence commuted. He was sentenced to

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Speaker 1: twenty eight years in prison after being convicted of two

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Speaker 1: dozen counts, including racketeering and extortion. President Trump also pardons

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Speaker 1: Robert Kays, a former chairman of the North Carolina Republican Party.

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Speaker 1: He had been accused in twenty nineteen of bribery and conspiracy.

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Speaker 1: The President also prod and Rick Ramzi, a former representative

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Speaker 1: of Arizona. He had been sentenced in place thirteen to

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Speaker 1: thirty six months in prison associated with a ribery scheme

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Speaker 1: involving an Arizona land swap deal. And the President also

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Speaker 1: pardoned Randall Duke Cunningham in a case that got a

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Speaker 1: lot of publicity involving a former representative of California. In

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Speaker 1: two thousand and six, he was sentenced to eight years

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Speaker 1: and four months in prison for taking two point four

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Speaker 1: million dollars in bribes for military contractors in return for

433
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:24,960
Speaker 1: smoothing the way for government contracts. So I do think

434
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,679
Speaker 1: that these pardons are unusual in that they involved so

435
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:32,480
Speaker 1: many white collar crimes, and it does involve a large

436
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:35,760
Speaker 1: number of people who were involved in politics, either by

437
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:39,119
Speaker 1: holding elective office or in some way being involved in

438
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:43,640
Speaker 1: political campaigns and involved in fundraising. I think a case

439
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:48,719
Speaker 1: that really illustrates the process of getting the attention of

440
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:54,320
Speaker 1: President Trump is the commutation for SHOLEM Weiss, who is

441
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 1: believed to be serving the largest white collar sentence in

442
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 1: US history, eight hundred thirty five year is for money

443
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 1: laundering and other charges. His nephew, Hershey Martin had a

444
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:09,159
Speaker 1: campaign to secure the presidential commutation for his uncle. He

445
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 1: addressed a long string of impassion tweet to the president.

446
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:16,679
Speaker 1: He contacted dozens of legislators urging them to write letters

447
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:20,480
Speaker 1: to the White House. He promoted a website featuring endorsements

448
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:24,919
Speaker 1: from people like Alan Dershowitz. It was literally a campaign,

449
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:27,639
Speaker 1: but it worked. That's an interesting point to you. And

450
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:32,880
Speaker 1: because President Trump has not followed the normal pardon process.

451
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:36,680
Speaker 1: The Department of Justice has an office that evaluates all

452
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:40,360
Speaker 1: of these parton applications, the system that's designed to impose

453
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:45,679
Speaker 1: some fairness on a process that is otherwise potentially arbitrary.

454
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:48,800
Speaker 1: To give you an example, they're about fourteen thousand parting

455
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,880
Speaker 1: applications currently pending with the Department of Justice. In this case,

456
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:56,560
Speaker 1: President Trump, more than any other past president, has largely

457
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,080
Speaker 1: sir convented that process, which he has the right to

458
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 1: do and take it upon himself to review these pardon

459
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 1: applications and then discussed it with his assistance and the

460
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 1: White House Council's Office in making the ultimate decisions. But

461
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,880
Speaker 1: he has not availed himself of the Department of Justices

462
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:18,159
Speaker 1: office that tally evaluates these parties so it's difficult to

463
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:23,199
Speaker 1: determine exactly why certain people were granted parties or commutations

464
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 1: and others were not. One example that you mentioned Salome White,

465
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 1: who was serving the longest white collar sentence in US history,

466
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:34,240
Speaker 1: eight thirty five years for money laundering and other charges

467
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:38,679
Speaker 1: stemming from the failure of National Heritage Life Insurance Company.

468
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:43,119
Speaker 1: That would seem to be an unusual case for a commutation.

469
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,640
Speaker 1: This is an individual who led while on vail, who

470
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:51,120
Speaker 1: tried to evade prosecution. But with somebody who was ultimately

471
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:54,719
Speaker 1: granted a commutational sense by President Trump. We don't know

472
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 1: exactly why, but we do know is that his nephew

473
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:02,200
Speaker 1: had engaged in a massive campaign to try to obtain

474
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 1: a commutation for his uncle, while ultimately he was chosen

475
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 1: for his commutation of sense. We really don't know, but

476
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 1: we do know that the President did consider many commutations

477
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 1: and pardons on his last days in office, as most

478
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:19,359
Speaker 1: presidents do. Some were granted pardons and commutations and the

479
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 1: others were not. To show the hectic nature of it

480
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:26,919
Speaker 1: and the unstructured nature of it. After all, the pardons

481
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 1: were announced in about an hour before Joe Biden was

482
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 1: sworn in as President Trump pardoned Albert Pierro Jr. A

483
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:39,119
Speaker 1: former business partner of his and the ex husband of

484
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 1: Fox News host Janine Pierrot. It was a real last

485
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 1: minute pardon. Well, again, the president has the absolute right

486
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 1: to make these decisions in any way he believes is appropriate.

487
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,439
Speaker 1: It seems in this case he did not follow the

488
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 1: system that many other presidents have used in order to

489
00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:00,440
Speaker 1: decide who was worthy of a pardon. Um Generally, there

490
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,399
Speaker 1: are factors that the Department Justice has created again in

491
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 1: order to provide some kind of uniformity and in order

492
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:12,200
Speaker 1: to avoid an appearance of arbitrarily handing out these very

493
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 1: important decisions about whether it's the pardons or compute somebody's sentence.

494
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:19,480
Speaker 1: In this case, we can only speculate that the how

495
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 1: and why President Trump decided to pardon these individuals on

496
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:27,160
Speaker 1: his last day in office. It's interesting to point out

497
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:32,160
Speaker 1: that although many of these pardons and commutations are controversial,

498
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 1: other presidents have also issued uh controversial pardons and commutations

499
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:40,959
Speaker 1: as they left office, and comparatively speaking, President Trump has

500
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 1: actually handed out fewer pardons and communications than his predecessors.

501
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 1: For example, only George H. W. Bush, another one term president,

502
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 1: granted fewer pardons and commutations for a time in office. UH,

503
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 1: President Jimmy Carter granted many more. Even John Kennedy and

504
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 1: care Afford he did not serve full terms, brands with

505
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 1: far more petitions than President Trump. Now, what's also notable

506
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 1: is what names were not on the list. He did

507
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 1: not pardon himself or his children, and that had been

508
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 1: expected almost it had been reported that he was thinking

509
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 1: about pardoning himself or his children. A pardon of his

510
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 1: children for crimes that have not been charged yet. Would

511
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 1: that have been an admission of guilt if you accept

512
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 1: that kind of a pardon, And that's a great question.

513
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 1: A preemptive pardon for somebody who's not being charged with

514
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 1: a crime, it would be highly controversial, and it's highly

515
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 1: questionable as to whether or not that parton would ultimately

516
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,480
Speaker 1: stand up. There are those who were advising the president

517
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 1: it's in that such a pardon would amount of an

518
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 1: unnecessary admission of guilt, given that none of the people

519
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 1: that he was considering himself or his immediate family members

520
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 1: had been charged with any crime or were known to

521
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:03,280
Speaker 1: be under federal and instigation. Many lawyers also believe that

522
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 1: it is not approved it's a pardon people without naming

523
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 1: the potential crimes for which they are being pardoned. And

524
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 1: therefore these preemptive pardons, granting people mercy for a crime

525
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 1: that they had not commit, was set a very bad precedence.

526
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 1: Thanks Bob. That's Robert Mints, a partner McCarter and English.

527
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,720
Speaker 1: President Trump is asking a federal appeals court to rule

528
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: that he qualifies under a law, the west Fall Act

529
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 1: of that would let him dodge a defamation suit by

530
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 1: ee Gene Carroll, the New York Advice columnist. Joining me

531
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 1: is Bloomberg Legal reporter Eric Lawson remind us what the

532
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 1: suit is about and what stage is that right now? Eric, So,

533
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 1: this is the defamation lawsuit that Egen Carol, the New

534
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 1: York Advice columnists, filed against President Trump in two thousand

535
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 1: nineteen after she went public with claims that he raped

536
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 1: her two decades ago in the Department George dressing room

537
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 1: in Manhattan, and then he called her a liar, that

538
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 1: she was politically motivated that sort of thing, and so

539
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,959
Speaker 1: she sued him for defamation essentially over his denial of

540
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 1: her allegations. Now, the case was in New York State Court.

541
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 1: More recently, the Justice Department had the case moved to

542
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:24,720
Speaker 1: federal court and tried to have the federal government substituted

543
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:28,760
Speaker 1: for Trump as the defendant in the case, which a

544
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 1: federal law does permit federal employees to a sort of

545
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 1: a dodge lawsuits against the over acts that relate to

546
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 1: their job. So the government did try to substitute itself

547
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:42,959
Speaker 1: with Trump in the case. A federal judge denied that,

548
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 1: and now that is on appeal. I was surprised to

549
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:50,520
Speaker 1: learn some of the lawsuits that have been dismissed because

550
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 1: of the west Fall Act. Tell us about some of

551
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:56,240
Speaker 1: the cases. Well, yeah, that's the thing is Trump is

552
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 1: not making this argument out of sinnair. There is this

553
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 1: west Fall Act of that you know, as I said,

554
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:06,719
Speaker 1: is supposed to protect federal employees from being sued for

555
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 1: actions related to their jobs. And in some cases those

556
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 1: have been defamation suits. Uh, including members of Congress have

557
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 1: been sued for defamation um for things that they have said. Uh.

558
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 1: And and and in several cases, including in cases against you know,

559
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 1: like Senator Elizabeth Warren and things like this, they successfully

560
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 1: did have the government substituted as themselves in these cases,

561
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 1: leading to their dismissal because you can't see the government

562
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 1: for defication. Um. But in those cases, uh, the statements

563
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 1: that were made, the allegedly defamatory statements were much more

564
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 1: closely tied to policy issues or matters that were sort

565
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 1: of in the being denbated at the time, um, whether

566
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 1: related to terrorism or something like that. So the judges

567
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 1: held that they were related to their duties as federal

568
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 1: government employed. But in this case, uh, the words that

569
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 1: Trump used about aging Carroll, um, denying this sexual assault

570
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:08,560
Speaker 1: allegation and saying things like she's not my type, never

571
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 1: met her, don't know, or she's politically motivated. Her lawyer

572
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 1: argues that, so they're not related to his presidential duty

573
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 1: in any way. Whereas Trump argues that the denial of

574
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 1: an allegation is part of its presidential duty. So is

575
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 1: the argument that he's making before the Federal appeals Court

576
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 1: the same basic argument that he made before Judge Kaplan. Yes,

577
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:35,959
Speaker 1: that's correct. They're they're just hoping for a different outcome

578
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 1: of course with the Federal Spials Court here. Uh. They're

579
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 1: arguing that for the president to be able to do

580
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 1: his job and protect his his reputation in office, that's

581
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:47,719
Speaker 1: sort of thing that he needs to be able to

582
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 1: uh deny allegations that are made against him. Um, so

583
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 1: Eating Carroll argues, no, he went too far. If he

584
00:33:57,360 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 1: wants to call her a liar, then he's going to

585
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 1: have approved that her underlying claims our fault and she

586
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 1: wants to go to trial and prove that they're true. So,

587
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,959
Speaker 1: while it is a defamation case, Eating Carol is hoping

588
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,320
Speaker 1: that it will come down to a trial over whether

589
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 1: or not the alleged attack actually happens. Is he being

590
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:21,400
Speaker 1: represented by his own attorneys and the Justice Department attorneys

591
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 1: or just the Justice Department attorneys. Well, he still has

592
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 1: his lawyer in the case of Mark Catuit, lawyer that

593
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 1: he hasn't in a lot of his litigations. Um, he

594
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 1: also has the Justice Department arguing, um, you know, appealing

595
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:39,239
Speaker 1: that denial to let the government substitute him. So right

596
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 1: now the Justice Department is a party in the case.

597
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 1: Trump is a party in the case, and they're both

598
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:47,760
Speaker 1: on the same side arguing, uh to let the government

599
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 1: substitute itself for Trump so that the case can be dismissed.

600
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 1: So he really does have representations by both the government

601
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:57,399
Speaker 1: still and his own personal lawyer, Mark Catuitz. When he's

602
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:04,479
Speaker 1: no longer president, does biden Justice Department have to take over? Yes,

603
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:06,800
Speaker 1: they will inherit this case along with the you know,

604
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 1: of course many others. And you know, one would maybe

605
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,360
Speaker 1: suspect that, oh well, if uh, if the Justice Department

606
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:16,880
Speaker 1: gets if Biden's Justice Department gets this, they'll just drop

607
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,400
Speaker 1: it and saying we no longer want to make this argument.

608
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 1: But that's really not a foregone conclusion. This question that

609
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 1: the federal or that the appeals court is going to

610
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:28,959
Speaker 1: have to answer is two fold. Does the west Ball

611
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 1: Act apply to a president? And if it does, does

612
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 1: were Trump's allegedly defamatory comments part of his official duties

613
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 1: under the west Ball Act? So it may be it's

614
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 1: that the government may want, even the Biden administration may

615
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:49,040
Speaker 1: want to argue that the Westpall Acts does apply to

616
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 1: a president, as it has in past cases. It's never

617
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 1: been challenged this way before, so the Justice Deparitment may

618
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,279
Speaker 1: sort of agree with half the case. They may want

619
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 1: Trump to be protected by the Westbell Act, but they

620
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:05,359
Speaker 1: may then argue, no, those particular comments were not part

621
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,279
Speaker 1: of his official duties. So it's unclear exactly what the

622
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 1: administration will do. This relates to allegations of something he

623
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:18,120
Speaker 1: did way before he was president. In other cases, is

624
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 1: the connection more immediate. That's correct, and in fact, that's

625
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:26,240
Speaker 1: why Judge Kaplan, the district judge, ruled against the government

626
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:28,479
Speaker 1: on this question. That's one of the reasons. He said

627
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:32,800
Speaker 1: that the underlying um sexual assault at the center of

628
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:37,360
Speaker 1: this defamation case related to old events um and therefore

629
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 1: we're not related, uh, you know, to his presidential duties.

630
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 1: So that's going to be another factor I'm sure the

631
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 1: Appill's court is going to consider. But like I said before,

632
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:51,759
Speaker 1: Trump is arguing that the denying those old allegations is

633
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 1: still part of his current presidential duties. Just to clarify,

634
00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:00,440
Speaker 1: if the court decides that this falls under the west

635
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 1: Fall Act, this case will be dead in the water.

636
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:11,440
Speaker 1: That's correct. If they If they decide that the president

637
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:13,799
Speaker 1: is protected by the west Fall Act and that his

638
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 1: comments about Egan Carol, uh, we're part of his presidential duties,

639
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 1: then the government would be substituted as defendants and the

640
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:27,279
Speaker 1: case would then be essentially dismissed. Um. So there would

641
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,720
Speaker 1: be there wouldn't really be any way around that ROBERTA.

642
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:36,400
Speaker 1: Kaplan is representing Eegan Carol here and she's also involved

643
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 1: in some other lawsuits against Trump. Yes, she is. She

644
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 1: is going to have a very busy She is also

645
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 1: representing Mary Trump, the president's me supports who wrote a

646
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,759
Speaker 1: damning book about Donald Trump UM and was embroiled in

647
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:57,759
Speaker 1: litigation over that book, which she won UM and then

648
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:01,359
Speaker 1: she went on to sue the President and UM and

649
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:05,760
Speaker 1: her aunt uncle for fraud, alleging a massive fraud related

650
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:10,840
Speaker 1: to the wills of their parents, her grandparents. So that

651
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 1: case is is still in its early stages. Revert to

652
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:17,319
Speaker 1: Kaplan is representing Mary Trump's there and she's also representing

653
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:21,719
Speaker 1: UM some old investors in a company called a c

654
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 1: N that did a multi level marketing promotion on Trump's

655
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:30,399
Speaker 1: reality TV shows that they claim he ripped them off

656
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:34,840
Speaker 1: by falsely telling praising this company without revealing that he

657
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 1: was being paid to do so. And is the civil

658
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 1: lawsuit against Trump by Summer Zervo still pending. It is

659
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:48,720
Speaker 1: UM that is UM on appeal in New York State Court. UH.

660
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:52,359
Speaker 1: There should be a hearing at some point later this year.

661
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:55,800
Speaker 1: It hasn't been scheduled yet. It's been sort of stalled

662
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 1: for a while now after some RESERVO has won the

663
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:02,799
Speaker 1: most recent argument that case. So it was the dismissal

664
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:07,360
Speaker 1: motion to dismiss that Trump lost and that's now on appeal.

665
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 1: Which case is closest to having Trump having to do

666
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:16,759
Speaker 1: a deposition, having to swear under oath and answer questions.

667
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:19,840
Speaker 1: That's a very good question. I really wouldn't know. I

668
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:23,479
Speaker 1: mean eating Carroll's case and some reserves. They both want

669
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 1: to depose Trump. Um. Theoretically that could happen in either

670
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:32,080
Speaker 1: one of those cases. UM this year. And Aegean Carroll

671
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 1: is also looking for a DNA test. Yeah, she wants

672
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:38,919
Speaker 1: to get a DNA sample from the president. Um. She

673
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:42,800
Speaker 1: has had the dress that she wore in the shoes

674
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:45,040
Speaker 1: that she was wearing at the time of the alleged attacks.

675
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:48,160
Speaker 1: She saved them and hasn't touched them since then. Um.

676
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:53,279
Speaker 1: She had them tested to pull various DNA samples off

677
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:58,799
Speaker 1: of them. UM, there was DNA from one unidentified male. UM.

678
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:02,239
Speaker 1: And they want to tell Trump's DNA to see if

679
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:05,320
Speaker 1: it's his. I want to talk a little bit about

680
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:09,400
Speaker 1: the New York prosecutors who are investigating Trump's company for

681
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:13,840
Speaker 1: possible tax bank and insurance fraud and why they've broadened

682
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 1: their investigation to include a property in Westchester County called

683
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:23,759
Speaker 1: Seven Springs. Yes, Seven Springs is a development north of

684
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:28,600
Speaker 1: New York City that the Trump organization what tried to

685
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:33,880
Speaker 1: develop UM years ago around I think around two thousand twelve. UM.

686
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:38,880
Speaker 1: It didn't work out, so they ended up essentially donating

687
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:42,360
Speaker 1: part of it, and they called it a conservation easement

688
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 1: and he got quite a large tax benefit for that

689
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:50,720
Speaker 1: based on a very specific, large appraisal of this property

690
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:52,799
Speaker 1: which was much more than what they had paid for it.

691
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 1: And the New York Attorney General has been investigating that. UM.

692
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:01,759
Speaker 1: It's it's part of it's part of larger investigation into

693
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 1: Trump's valuations and whether or not in any bank, broad

694
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 1: or insurance squad might be involved in how they valued

695
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:13,000
Speaker 1: various assets. These are things that Michael Cohen, Trump's former lawyer,

696
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:16,840
Speaker 1: sort of stilled the beans on during his life congressional testimony.

697
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:21,279
Speaker 1: That's what triggered the New York Attorney Generals investigation, which

698
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:23,840
Speaker 1: technically we only know about because she had to sue

699
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:28,440
Speaker 1: to force Trump organization and various other people too uh

700
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:31,239
Speaker 1: to comply with the subpoenas that she'd spent out that

701
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 1: civil investigation still ongoing, and was that the investigation where

702
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:40,719
Speaker 1: Eric Trump was forced to testify. That's correct, The one

703
00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:45,359
Speaker 1: of the subpoenas was for Eric Trump's deposition UM. He

704
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:49,279
Speaker 1: ultimately lost on his effort to delay it until after

705
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:52,439
Speaker 1: the presidential election, and he has since been to post

706
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 1: no idea. Of course what was said. That's all a

707
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:59,520
Speaker 1: secret information. But eventually we may find out if a

708
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 1: lawsuit is ever filed, if any alleged wrongdoing is actually

709
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:06,840
Speaker 1: spelled out in court. But it's too early to know

710
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:09,920
Speaker 1: for sure if that will happen. If it's the a G. Suing,

711
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:12,880
Speaker 1: does that mean it's only civil or can it also

712
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:16,440
Speaker 1: be criminal? Well, right now, it's just a civil investigation.

713
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:21,400
Speaker 1: My understanding is that if they find criminal activity that

714
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 1: they would have to refer that out and sort of

715
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:27,480
Speaker 1: get um an approval to do a criminal case. So

716
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 1: it's not something that they can that the A G.

717
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:31,879
Speaker 1: S Office can automatically do on its own, and that's

718
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 1: separate from the Manhattan District Attorney's investigation. That's correct, that

719
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:40,760
Speaker 1: they're they're obviously looking out at the same underlying UM

720
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:44,320
Speaker 1: questions here about seven springs, but as you sell reports

721
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:49,560
Speaker 1: Um on Friday, they the d AS Office are also investigating.

722
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:53,320
Speaker 1: Thanks for being the Bloomberg Law Show, Eric. That's Bloomberg

723
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:56,600
Speaker 1: Legal reporter Eric Larson. And that's it for the edition

724
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 1: of the Bloomberg Lawn Podcast. I'm June Grass. Thanks so

725
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:02,279
Speaker 1: much for a listening, and remember you can always get

726
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:05,360
Speaker 1: the latest legal news on our Bloomberg Laump podcast. You

727
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:08,840
Speaker 1: can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and wherever you

728
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:12,239
Speaker 1: get your favorite podcasts. You're listening to Bloomberg