1 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: Amy Roboc and TJ. 2 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 2: Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host Alisa Donovan. 3 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:19,120 Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, a Lisa Donovan here and this is Killer Thriller. Okay, 4 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:21,480 Speaker 1: So lately on this show, we've been diving into stories 5 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 1: that are wild, shocking, and honestly a little bit too real, 6 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: from gaslup by my husband to I Am Elizabeth Smart 7 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 1: to Joe versus Carol. There is a pattern that keeps 8 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: showing up again and again. And it's not just crime. 9 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: It's control, it's manipulation, it's narcissism and gaslighting. And these 10 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:45,319 Speaker 1: are the kinds of people who can They can charm you, 11 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:50,559 Speaker 1: confuse you, and completely rewrite your reality, sometimes without you 12 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 1: even realizing that it's happening. So today we're pulling back 13 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: the curtain on all of that. We are joined by 14 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: doctor Jamie Zuckerman, a clinical psychologist and expert in narcissistic abuse, 15 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 1: and we're going to break down what we're actually watching 16 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 1: in these stories and how it shows up in real life, 17 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:13,480 Speaker 1: because once you see it, you can't unsee it. Doctor Jamie, 18 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:14,959 Speaker 1: Welcome to Killer Thriller. 19 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 2: Oh it's my pleasure. Thank you for having me. 20 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: So I have been noticing a pattern across all of 21 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 1: these stories that we have been talking about recently, whether 22 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 1: it's the criminals themselves or these just larger than life characters, 23 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:31,400 Speaker 1: and there definitely seems to be a thread of narcissism 24 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: running through a lot of them. So what does it 25 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 1: actually mean to be a narcissist from a clinical perspective? 26 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:41,319 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that's a great question. So, as we know 27 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 2: from social media, it's being thrown all over everywhere and people. 28 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 2: On the one hand, it's great people are learning about it. 29 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 2: On the other hand, it's not so great because no 30 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 2: one really knows what it is anymore so from a 31 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 2: clinical standpoint, a narcissist when we talk about it on 32 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 2: a continuum, So at the very extreme, we have what's 33 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 2: called narcissistic person disorder that is a pervasive personality style 34 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:08,639 Speaker 2: that infiltrates all aspects of that person's life. It's characterized 35 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:13,239 Speaker 2: by intense grandiosity, right, It's characterized by an extreme lack 36 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 2: of remorse, lack of empathy. Everything is about control and power, 37 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:20,359 Speaker 2: So all of their behaviors at the very end of 38 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 2: the day, are all about obtaining control and power over 39 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 2: other people. They're extremely manipulative, they are extremely controlling and 40 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 2: quite frankly, they are aware and this is something I'm 41 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 2: sure we'll get to you, but they are aware of 42 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 2: what they're doing. Short answers know they don't care as 43 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 2: long as their needs are met. 44 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 1: So why do so many criminals seem to have these traits? 45 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, So when we look at criminology, what we find 46 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 2: is that in that cluster of personality disorders, particularly narcissistic 47 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 2: personality disorder, we have something called antisocial personality disorder, which 48 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 2: kind of if you think of narcisses them on a continuum, right, 49 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 2: and at the extreme end we have that intense, malignant 50 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:09,359 Speaker 2: narcissistic personality style. Right up next to that, we tend 51 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 2: to have antisocial personality disorder, which is what we think 52 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 2: of criminology. Like people that kill and do these horrific things, 53 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:18,960 Speaker 2: and they really bump up next to each other. They 54 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 2: are different in certain respects, but they do overlap, which 55 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 2: is why you'll see at the extreme end of narcissism, 56 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 2: it tends to go into that. 57 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:31,080 Speaker 1: Realm right right. So that's it's more than the average person. 58 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 1: You know, it makes somebody more like with someone with narcissism, 59 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 1: it makes them more likely to cross moral or legal lines. 60 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 2: Yes, because the rules don't apply to them. 61 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 1: Right. 62 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 2: And so even if you take somebody, let's say that's 63 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 2: kind of in the middle of that continuum, somebody who 64 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 2: has extreme narcissistic tendencies, they are very difficult to have 65 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 2: relationships with, whether that's a friend, a colleague, a family member, 66 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 2: a spouse. They make relationships so difficult. They make you 67 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 2: think you're going crazy. They make you think you're losing 68 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 2: your mind, and it's so up and down you don't 69 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 2: know which end is up. That's really when we when 70 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 2: we see these dysfunctional relationships, what we're talking about, when 71 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 2: you get into that extreme realm like I'm talking about, 72 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:22,359 Speaker 2: you get into that that kind of antisocial realm of things. 73 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:26,279 Speaker 1: Right, So, how much of it of the narcissism is 74 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 1: about control versus insecurity, like a deep insecurity. 75 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 2: So I'll answer to it. So it's all about control. 76 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 2: At the end of the day. Everything they're doing is 77 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:42,719 Speaker 2: what we call coercive control, coercing you into controlling you 78 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:46,720 Speaker 2: through whatever means necessary. They could love bomb you, they 79 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:49,359 Speaker 2: could they could threaten you, they could pretend to be 80 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 2: your best friend, whatever means works for you to give 81 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:56,839 Speaker 2: up your control over to them. So there's that, right, 82 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 2: But then in addition to that, it's it is about 83 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 2: low esteem and insecurities. But I want to make it clear, 84 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:11,839 Speaker 2: all of us at some point worse than others. We 85 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 2: all have low self esteem, right, we all have insecurity height, 86 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 2: so you know, none of us are free from that. 87 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 2: So keeping that in mind is not automatic that somebody 88 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:24,720 Speaker 2: is going to develop narcissism or personality because of insecure 89 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 2: do most narcissists have extreme insecurities? Absolutely, And a lot 90 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 2: of these are compensatory strategies to kind of make up 91 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:33,840 Speaker 2: for that or to avoid it for themselves. 92 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 1: Right, right, So what's that? I think for a lot 93 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 1: of people, they're how what is this? Is there a 94 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:43,799 Speaker 1: distinct difference between somebody who's just very self involved and 95 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 1: somebody who is truly narcissistic? 96 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 2: Yes? Yes, so on the surface, the behaviors can look 97 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 2: very similar. Right. So I can seem so self absorbed, 98 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 2: you can seem so self absorbed. But when brought to 99 00:05:57,120 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 2: my attention, let's say, it's just a long pattern I've 100 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 2: had my entire existence because for whatever reason in my upbringing, 101 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:07,160 Speaker 2: that's just how I came to be I modeled my parents' behavior, whatever, 102 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 2: or I did it because I had to survive childhood. 103 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:09,679 Speaker 1: Whatever. 104 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:12,920 Speaker 2: If someone brings to my if you bring to my attention, 105 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 2: like Jamie, you know what, every time I try to 106 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 2: talk to you about something important to me, you always 107 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:19,599 Speaker 2: make it about yourself. All you care about is yourself. 108 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:23,920 Speaker 2: And I say, oh my god, I'm so I didn't 109 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:26,159 Speaker 2: realize I did that, right, and I have some sense 110 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 2: of remorse. Right. It may be hard for me to 111 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 2: change it because it's. 112 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 1: All I know. 113 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 2: But I don't want to hurt you. Right Where somebody 114 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 2: who's narcissistic, it's always about them because you're just an object. 115 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 2: You don't matter, your feelings, your concerns, How I'm hurting you, 116 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 2: It doesn't, it doesn't. It's either here nor therapy because 117 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:46,360 Speaker 2: it gives you nothing. 118 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:51,839 Speaker 1: Wow. So there is a piece of just simple accountability 119 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:52,919 Speaker 1: or awareness. 120 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:56,480 Speaker 2: Yes, great work. Yes, they I always tell people narcissists 121 00:06:56,640 --> 00:07:00,920 Speaker 2: do not have accountability. They will project onto others. They 122 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 2: will gaslight the crap out of you to make you 123 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 2: feel like somehow this is your fault and you're not 124 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 2: sure how that is, but it is. And so then 125 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 2: you're apologizing when you don't even know what you're apologizing. 126 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: For, right right, right. So in in gas lit by 127 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 1: my husband, the Morgan Mester story, which I know you're 128 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 1: familiar with, and I spoke with Jenna, and I know 129 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 1: you've spoken with Jenna as well. Who I couldn't be 130 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 1: a bigger fan of her as a human being and 131 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 1: as an actress. But what really stood out to me 132 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 1: was how slowly the manipulation build over time. So at 133 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 1: what point does something like that cross into emotional abuse? 134 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 1: And I don't want to be hard to pay. 135 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 2: Oh, I love this question. I love this question because 136 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 2: it's a very it's a big misconception that a lot 137 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 2: of people have. So I will say this in regards 138 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 2: to the to the movie. I'm very picky with the 139 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:55,960 Speaker 2: I watched a ton of dot doc btteries and movies 140 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 2: about all this stuff. This was one of the most 141 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 2: well done movies that got it right, and there's few 142 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 2: and this they nailed it. And so and for one 143 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 2: of the reasons, it is exactly what you said that 144 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 2: it's this subtle, like long coming into you know, coming 145 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 2: to be right. And the reason for that is because 146 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 2: it's exactly how it works. It's that's why when people 147 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 2: come to me, they're like, I can't believe I didn't 148 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 2: see this. I'm like, there was literally no way for 149 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 2: you to see this, and before you even know what's 150 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 2: going on, you're too sucked in. Right, So it is 151 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 2: deliberate that it starts like this. There is no right 152 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:37,719 Speaker 2: I shouldn't say, though. There's rarely a time when I'm 153 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 2: working with people where they can say this was the moment. 154 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 2: They'll tell me this was their breaking point to leave. 155 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:45,679 Speaker 2: But they never tell me this moment. It is so subtle, 156 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:47,320 Speaker 2: it is so calculated. 157 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: As you're talking, it's like I'm hearing it like almost 158 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 1: like the weaving of a fabric. Right, and then all 159 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:56,719 Speaker 1: of a sudden, you're in a sweater. Wait, yeah, you 160 00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: didn't want to be wearing a sweater. 161 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 2: I actually may steal that from you because I love that. 162 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 2: I use the worst analogy. My analogy is that you 163 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 2: have a leak in your kitchen and you just say like, oh, whatever, 164 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 2: i'll deal with it later, I'll do it, and then 165 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 2: before you know it, you're seeing up to your waist 166 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 2: and water in your kitchen. You don't know how your gut, 167 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 2: but yours is much better. 168 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 1: So I take your thanks. 169 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:21,560 Speaker 2: But yeah, it's but you know, make no mistake, it's 170 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 2: on purpose that it's like this. It's very it's very calculated, 171 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 2: and so by the time you realize what's happening, there's 172 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 2: so many things put in place to make it difficult 173 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 2: for you to escape, right, And I say escape on purpose, 174 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 2: not life. 175 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:40,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, because that is what it is, right, It's 176 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: not this question that people who really don't understand this 177 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 1: at all are always saying, like, well, why why didn't 178 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 1: she just leave? Or why didn't you It's like that's 179 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 1: just a complete lack of understanding of the dynamics of 180 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 1: the entire er. Well said, yes, scenario. So in this 181 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:03,439 Speaker 1: film and in 's life, she slowly starts questioning her 182 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: own reality. So what is actually happening psychologically when somebody 183 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:09,680 Speaker 1: gets to that point? 184 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:14,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it starts out. You know, people think love 185 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 2: bombing is is is you know, roses and calling all 186 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:19,560 Speaker 2: the time and confessing their undying love and you're my 187 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 2: soulmate in all this, which it is and it can be. 188 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 2: But love bombing really is figuring out what that person's 189 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 2: needs once interests are and matching them exactly on that. Right, 190 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 2: So I could love camping. I don't, but I could 191 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 2: love camping right, and I meets it right, and I 192 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 2: meet somebody and they're like, you know, you know what 193 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 2: I would love to do one day? I would love 194 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:46,320 Speaker 2: to go camping with you. And you're like, what right. 195 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 2: So it's it's really kind of sneakly figuring out what 196 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 2: these persons needs are, what's missed in their development with 197 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 2: their family filling in all the holes. So you feel 198 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 2: like you're this puzzle piece, and so when you're in 199 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 2: that you become blindsided. It's like a tidal wave. I've 200 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 2: never had this before. I've never felt like this before. 201 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 2: You're my soulmate and it's amazing. And who doesn't want that? 202 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:10,080 Speaker 1: Right? You feel seen result that way. I want to 203 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:12,320 Speaker 1: be understood. We want to be seen and what we 204 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:13,840 Speaker 1: really care about. 205 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:16,200 Speaker 2: And so you don't see it then. And so what 206 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 2: happens in that timeframe that's usually short, You make a 207 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:23,080 Speaker 2: lot of decisions that are very long term in terms 208 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 2: of their impact, like moving in together very fast, interesting, 209 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 2: joining bank accounts very fast, all of these things that 210 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 2: seemed normal and natural. Yeah, fast, but normal and natural. 211 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:35,439 Speaker 2: But the reason why the narcissist is doing it that 212 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:38,680 Speaker 2: way is so that they can continuously make your world 213 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 2: smaller while gaining access to you from all areas finances, 214 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 2: your housing, your cell phone, your car. I cannot tell 215 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 2: you how many times I have had people say, oh, 216 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 2: like they want me to they want me to work 217 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:53,560 Speaker 2: for them, so I'm going to leave and build my 218 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 2: business with them, And you're like, ah, right, so yeah. 219 00:11:57,559 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 2: So a lot of that are to become their manager 220 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 2: and they start doing all their deals for them, and 221 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 2: it just everything goes south very quickly. So that happens, 222 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 2: and then things slowly start to shift, but not enough 223 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 2: where you can say, oh my god, I gotta get out. 224 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:16,199 Speaker 2: It's things like are you sure you really want to 225 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 2: go to work today? I mean, like your kid's homesick, 226 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 2: they really want you right like you you don't want 227 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 2: to leave them with your mom. Or it could be 228 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:27,719 Speaker 2: you know, you know your friend Jamie. I know you've 229 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 2: been friends with her forever, but there's just something about her. 230 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:34,200 Speaker 2: I just I can't put my finger on it. She 231 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:36,079 Speaker 2: never did anything to me, but I don't know if 232 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:38,840 Speaker 2: I trust her. So before you know what, they start 233 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:42,079 Speaker 2: to isolate you further further, or you know, with finances 234 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 2: this is a big one. It'll be something like no, no, no, sweet, 235 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 2: I'll do the taxes. Don't worry about you know how 236 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 2: you are with math, like, don't don't even worry about it. 237 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 2: And so you give up your independence without even realizing 238 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 2: you're giving. 239 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 1: It out under the guises of something being like a 240 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 1: gift or something being done. You're being taken care of 241 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 1: in some way. I literally, just in the three seconds 242 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 1: we've been talking, i'vem like, oh, three people that I've 243 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:09,200 Speaker 1: known in my life. One boyfriend, one manager of a friend, 244 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 1: and one the now ex wife of a friend. Like, 245 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 1: thank goodness they are divorced. Now, it's really diabolical. 246 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 2: It's diabolical. 247 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 1: So how how do you know when someone is gaslighting you? 248 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 2: Okay, so you won't at first, So I like to 249 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:31,679 Speaker 2: make that very crazy. You won't at first. What you'll 250 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 2: feel is confusion. You'll feel shame, you'll feel doubt, you'll 251 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 2: feel insecure, and you'll feel fearful, like you're losing your mind. 252 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:46,319 Speaker 2: So it'll be subtle things like and and you know 253 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 2: for people listening that are like, oh not, everyone's bad 254 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 2: as a narcissist. And you know it's bigger than that. 255 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 2: It's more than that. So it's it's this person will 256 00:13:56,320 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 2: deliberately hide your cell phone, make you look for it, 257 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 2: make you think you've lost it you're going crazy, or 258 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:08,199 Speaker 2: or hide your keys, or hit your car and then 259 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:10,959 Speaker 2: blame you. I mean, all these little things. So these 260 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 2: things start to happen, or delete something from your from 261 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:17,080 Speaker 2: your calendar, and you think you have plans. You swore 262 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 2: you had plans, but then you look and you're like, wait, 263 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 2: I have no plans. And little things like that, so 264 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 2: you start to doubt your Saturday, which then turns into 265 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 2: are you all right? Maybe you should see a psychologist. 266 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 2: I'm really worried about you. You seem so stressed out, 267 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 2: like maybe you should not go out as much, maybe 268 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 2: you should quit your job or let me take charge 269 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 2: of this. And so, before you know what, you start 270 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 2: to believe this because here you have this caring. 271 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 1: Person and they sound reasonable. 272 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 2: Like reasonable yeah, And so you start to feel embarrassed. 273 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 2: So you start to limpit your your your your social network. 274 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 2: And so what ends up happening is that you ends 275 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 2: up in this tiny, small bubble and your reality has 276 00:14:56,480 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 2: become so warped that you have to depend on your 277 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 2: abuser to define reality for you, because without them, you 278 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 2: are lost. And so that's what gaslighting really is. 279 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 1: So are you just sort of mentioned a few, but 280 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: are there any other kind of particular phrases or behaviors 281 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 1: that people should immediately should like set up a red flag? 282 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 2: Yes, things like you know you're crazy, or you always 283 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 2: do this, or you know, something like that's not me, 284 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 2: right that you show a picture to them about you 285 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 2: said you were out with your friends, but I saw 286 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 2: you out with this one and here's a picture that's 287 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 2: not me. They must have photoshoped it. You know how 288 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 2: much they hate me. I hate that kind of stuff, right, 289 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 2: But again, the bigger ones that are kind of like 290 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 2: the hallmarks of this is you're crazy, you're losing your mind, 291 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 2: you know you need help, or you know, you take 292 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 2: their phone and you start going through it and you 293 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 2: find something and then they throw it back on you 294 00:15:57,120 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 2: and make you feel and then before you know what, 295 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 2: you're apologizing for going through their phone because you're crazy 296 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 2: in your psycho that. 297 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 1: Kind of stuff, right, So what do you do if 298 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 1: you suspect that you are in a relationship with someone 299 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 1: who is a narcissist or somebody who is gaslighting it, 300 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 1: what do you actually do? 301 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is where you have to be very 302 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 2: careful and very safe because we know from the research 303 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 2: that one it takes about seven times on average for 304 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 2: somebody to leave a relationship like this seven seven. 305 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 1: Wow. 306 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, it is not easy for numerous reasons. They're tied financially, 307 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 2: they're tied with kids, and the family courts with custody 308 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 2: do not favor the healthy parent, which is a whole 309 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 2: other issue, and so they're really kind of locked in there. 310 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 2: So you want to first make sure that you have 311 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 2: somebody on the outside that you can confide in, and 312 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 2: when you've been isolated for so long, that can be 313 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 2: really difficult. So I always tell family and friends whatever 314 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 2: you do is man as you may get it. Then 315 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 2: for going back and going back, just know that they 316 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 2: need you at some point and just tell them I 317 00:16:57,680 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 2: love you, I'll be there for you. That's the nice 318 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 2: because at some point they're gonna need you. Find somebody 319 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 2: that you can confide in, somebody that you can trust. 320 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 2: Know that you will never feel ready to leave. You 321 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 2: will never never feel super strong and ready to leave. 322 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 2: You're gonna have to do this and feel scared to death. 323 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:18,919 Speaker 2: You want to make sure that you have everything you 324 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 2: possibly can lined up for your escape, meaning somebody to 325 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 2: stay with, access to funds, a prepaid calling card, a 326 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:31,920 Speaker 2: prepaid credit card, you know, have a to go back 327 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 2: in your car with your passport and your license, any 328 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:38,119 Speaker 2: important documents, your medicines, all of that kind of stuff, 329 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 2: just just to have it. Those are the practical things 330 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:43,480 Speaker 2: that people really need to have in place first before 331 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:47,399 Speaker 2: they even make any kind of psychological effort. 332 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, that's so. I mean, it's a lot. 333 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:56,639 Speaker 1: It's like you really have to be ready and willing. 334 00:17:56,680 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: I mean, that's understandable. Why it takes so long? I mean, 335 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:03,159 Speaker 1: and you know, I was going to ask why is 336 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:05,439 Speaker 1: this so hard for people to leave these relationships? But 337 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:07,639 Speaker 1: I mean I think we just you just and. 338 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 2: Also when particularly for women but men too, but when 339 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:15,159 Speaker 2: you leave, that's the highest rate for physical violence is 340 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:17,880 Speaker 2: when you're leaving or if they hear that you're leaving. 341 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 2: So you have to be really careful. 342 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:24,880 Speaker 1: Right, So in I am Elizabeth Smart, it's a very 343 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:28,959 Speaker 1: different situation where but there is still control and manipulation 344 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:34,400 Speaker 1: by her kidnapper and abuser. So how much of this behavior, 345 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:38,919 Speaker 1: especially all the religious doctrine that he spews out. How 346 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 1: much of that would you say is narcissism? 347 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, a significant chunk of it, because if you look 348 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:47,879 Speaker 2: at the way in which he manipulates her and also 349 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:53,359 Speaker 2: his wife, you know right that it's very very much 350 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:59,680 Speaker 2: this intense coercive control, intense isolation from everybody in the 351 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 2: world basically, right, So it's just his doctrine, it's just 352 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:07,160 Speaker 2: his words that they have to exist by. So it's 353 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 2: very much control based, it's very much power based. We 354 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:13,679 Speaker 2: see this a lot in cult dynamics, you know, and 355 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 2: it begs the question, you know, he thinks he's a prophet. 356 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:21,200 Speaker 2: When you're at that extreme, Yes, when you are that grandiose, yeah, 357 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 2: you people will believe that. They will believe that story. Now, 358 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:29,639 Speaker 2: how much of his own preachings does he believe? Who knows? 359 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 2: It may not necessarily matter. What matters is that he 360 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 2: has isolated them so much, scared them so much that 361 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:41,200 Speaker 2: their ability to leave it's like they don't even it's 362 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:44,160 Speaker 2: not even an option. It becomes something they don't even 363 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 2: think about or consider. 364 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 1: Right, it's not actually a part of reality. So right, 365 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 1: so do people in those situations like Elizabeth, they start 366 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 1: to adapt in ways that outsiders, people like you and 367 00:19:57,320 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 1: I we might not understand. 368 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 2: Yes, right, yes, And that's why it's so confusing for 369 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:06,919 Speaker 2: people who leave these relationships, whether it's an abusive intimate relationship, 370 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:09,719 Speaker 2: a family member, or cult, whatever the case may be. 371 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 2: It is so difficult for other people to say, like, 372 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:15,879 Speaker 2: why wouldn't you just leave? But what they're forgetting is 373 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 2: that if there's actual neurological changes that occur in your brain, right, 374 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 2: there's actual cognitive changes that occur in your brain that 375 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 2: make it impossible to see otherwise. 376 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 1: Right, So what like in Elizabeth Smart's case, she was 377 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: captive for nine months? So what happens psychologically when somebody 378 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 1: is controlled for that long? 379 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:38,920 Speaker 2: Yeah? So one is your your fight or flight response, right, 380 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 2: which is what we have to innately keep us alive 381 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:45,399 Speaker 2: and survive. When you're in those types of environments, you 382 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 2: kind of go on to this freeze mode, right, And 383 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 2: it's a form of self protection. And so when you're 384 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:55,679 Speaker 2: in that freeze mode, you don't act, and so we 385 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 2: see that a lot unfortunately in sexual assaults. Right, White 386 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 2: people don't fight back. It's their body literally does what 387 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:04,199 Speaker 2: their body thinks is the best thing to do to 388 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 2: protect them in that moment. And so when you have 389 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:13,440 Speaker 2: that response coupled with if you leave, I'll kill you. Your 390 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 2: family doesn't love you, nobody's looking for you, right, you're 391 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 2: so limited in your in your response options, and then neurologically, 392 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 2: your brain starts to reset itself for survival. It's all 393 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:29,119 Speaker 2: you can do. And so you're you're you're basically resetting 394 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 2: yourself for survival. So your options become really only what 395 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 2: your brain can allow you. 396 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 1: To think of. 397 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 2: And that's why people feel stuck and why so hard 398 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 2: for other people I get. 399 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: To get it right right, It literally changes the reality 400 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 1: of your own reality. So what is the is there 401 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:54,400 Speaker 1: or is there a moment or a point where the 402 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:58,119 Speaker 1: those survival instincts really do take over and then it 403 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:01,160 Speaker 1: changes how they respond, like what is that? Is that 404 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 1: a is that a particular moment or Yeah? 405 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 2: So when I work with people who are in these relationships, 406 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 2: the I would say that the biggest thing, the biggest 407 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:21,159 Speaker 2: light switched moment that I have with people is once 408 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:24,399 Speaker 2: they are able to and this takes a long time, 409 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:28,880 Speaker 2: but once they're able to see the patterns. Because here's 410 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:33,119 Speaker 2: the one thing the playbook of a narcissistic dynamic is 411 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 2: so obvious once you see it. It is so textbook, 412 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 2: and so for one of the most destructive styles out there, 413 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 2: it really is the most predictable. And so once a 414 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:49,919 Speaker 2: survivor sees those patterns, you absolutely one cannot unsee it. 415 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 2: And so once they're able to not only predict the behavior, 416 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:57,680 Speaker 2: but know what it is and know why it's happening, 417 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:03,640 Speaker 2: then they start to be caught untouchable and they slowly 418 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 2: start to if this is them with the narcissists, right, 419 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 2: and they slowly start to separate, allowing them to see 420 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 2: it for what it is, and that's when you really 421 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 2: want to start to make your moves at that point, 422 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 2: right right, it's a very in therapy at least, it's 423 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 2: a very AHA moment for people because it gives them 424 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:25,360 Speaker 2: so much empowerment in that moment to know that, oh 425 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:27,119 Speaker 2: my god, wait, this has nothing to do with me. 426 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,159 Speaker 2: This is a pattern. Okay, so I know when I 427 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:31,879 Speaker 2: do this, they're going to do this, so I know 428 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 2: how I need to respond to this, and before you 429 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:38,680 Speaker 2: know it, that understanding of that blueprint is what actually 430 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,440 Speaker 2: gives you the ability to eventually leave. 431 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 1: I mean that's what Elizabeth Smart actually did, where she 432 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 1: manipulates him and says, yes, I think God is telling 433 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 1: us to go back to Utah and put it sort 434 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,479 Speaker 1: of into his hands. God's telling you to do this 435 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 1: because you're or the one that needs And then he says, oh, 436 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 1: you're right, that is what we should do. I mean 437 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:06,919 Speaker 1: it's really incredible. 438 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:09,440 Speaker 2: You make them think it was their idea. You make 439 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 2: them think that you need them, You make them think 440 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 2: that you know that they're in control of you. Once 441 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 2: you see that and you can twist it, then you 442 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:19,680 Speaker 2: can start to separate yourself. 443 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 3: Right. 444 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 1: So are there warning signs, even in less extreme situations 445 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,359 Speaker 1: that control is escalating in a dangerous way. 446 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. So I like to start from I call it 447 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 2: preventive medicine. I like to start from the very beginning. 448 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:50,480 Speaker 2: So if you're on a date with somebody, or you 449 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,800 Speaker 2: meet somebody in business, or you meet a new friend, 450 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:57,960 Speaker 2: and you start to see the behaviors like love bombing. Right, 451 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 2: So the non stop calling, make plans, they seem to 452 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 2: just get you so quickly. If you hear the word 453 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 2: you're my soulmate, you run for the hills. I put 454 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 2: that out as a blanket statement. You know, they don't 455 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 2: even know your middle name, but yet somehow you're their soulmate. 456 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:17,960 Speaker 2: If you start doing things like you're planning your wedding 457 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 2: and it's how cute, and we're gonna name our kids this, 458 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:21,920 Speaker 2: this and this and this is gonna be our dog 459 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,359 Speaker 2: and no, because that's not our You don't know anybody 460 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 2: well enough to be their soulmate, right, You don't know 461 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 2: anyone yet. You don't know how they operate, you don't 462 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:33,879 Speaker 2: know how they argue, and so those are red flags 463 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:36,119 Speaker 2: from the very beginning. And the way I tell people 464 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:40,160 Speaker 2: to check is tell the person that you're stick one day. 465 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 2: And I used to get so much crap for this, 466 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 2: But tell the person you're sick and you need to 467 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:47,239 Speaker 2: cancel plans, and see what their response is. Do they 468 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 2: ghost you? Do they get angry at you? Do they 469 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 2: show up at your house anyway with flowers and soup 470 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:53,159 Speaker 2: and say, I you know, I'm here to make you 471 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:53,680 Speaker 2: feel better? 472 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:54,200 Speaker 1: Well? 473 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:55,120 Speaker 2: How do they respond? 474 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:55,880 Speaker 1: Right? 475 00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 2: Yeah? Right? 476 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 1: Do they hear what you're saying, which is I am 477 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:02,399 Speaker 1: not well, I'm going to rest today, I don't I 478 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 1: don't want to be together? 479 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:05,160 Speaker 2: Yes? 480 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 1: Right? Yes? 481 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 2: See how they talk to waiters and waitresses. See how 482 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,879 Speaker 2: they talk to talk about their exes? 483 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 1: Right? 484 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:16,879 Speaker 2: How do they talk about their family? Do they have friends? 485 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 2: Like all these little things that when things are so good, 486 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,680 Speaker 2: you may not really pay attention to, right. 487 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 1: So okay, So thinking about someone like Joe Exotic and 488 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:32,680 Speaker 1: Joe V. Carroll, So he is this person who's very 489 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 1: charismatic in a in a very unique sort of a way, 490 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:41,360 Speaker 1: but is also very controlling. And is that a common 491 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 1: combination with narcissism. 492 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, So within within narcissism and that cliga, in that 493 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,639 Speaker 2: cluster of personality disorders, oftentimes we see this kind of 494 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:56,400 Speaker 2: histrionic which is that very just you know, as you said, 495 00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 2: just kind of this ridiculous. 496 00:26:57,640 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 1: Performative and demonstrative. 497 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, we we see that a lot with certain types 498 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:07,080 Speaker 2: of narcissists, not all, but but that's that's common. Yes, Now, 499 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:11,360 Speaker 2: does that automatically align with being controlling? No, it doesn't, 500 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 2: it doesn't. But but again, it's not uncommon to see 501 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:20,920 Speaker 2: those kind of those things overlap. But but but alone 502 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:23,920 Speaker 2: by itself doesn't mean that they're narcissistic, and a narcissist 503 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 2: alone by themselves won't mean they're necessarily histrionic in that respect. 504 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 1: Right, Well, so how do you know when manipulation is 505 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 1: happening versus just a difficult personality? Yes, sometimes my husband 506 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 1: might say I'm a difficult personality. 507 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 2: Mine never says. 508 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 1: He'll be wrong, but he obviously. 509 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 2: What do they mean? No? So, so, so here's here's 510 00:27:54,600 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 2: the here's the real difference in those is that Again, 511 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 2: as I said before, we all grew up with patterns, 512 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:07,360 Speaker 2: either patterns that we modeled from our caregivers or patterns 513 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 2: that we did in opposition to our caregivers. But the 514 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 2: way we are in our world up till a certain 515 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 2: point really is based on our development. We do the 516 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:18,359 Speaker 2: things we do because the patterns. We are experts at 517 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 2: our patterns. We can do our patterns the best out 518 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:26,639 Speaker 2: of anybody else. And so we may be difficult, but 519 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 2: not narcissistic. If just our patterns annoy other people or 520 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 2: they just don't make for the easiest relationships, that doesn't 521 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:40,200 Speaker 2: mean you're a narcissist. It just may mean you have 522 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 2: toxic in our personal patterns or you're using in our 523 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 2: personal patterns. It worked great for you growing up, and 524 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 2: that's how you got through it, and that's how you 525 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 2: survived fast forward into adulthood when that context is no 526 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 2: longer present. But yet we're still using the same inner 527 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 2: personal styles. We're gonna feel like we start to hit 528 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 2: a wall. That's not narcissism. That's not that, because it's 529 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 2: with this is if your husband sat you down and 530 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 2: said to you, listen, when you do this. In this, 531 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 2: you're hurting me. Right, You're gonna feel horrible. You're not 532 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 2: gonna want to do it. Will It be hard and 533 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 2: difficult to change, of course, But that's different. The purpose 534 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 2: of your behaving, the way you're behaving, has nothing to 535 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 2: do with gaining control, access, and manipulation to him. It's 536 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 2: just about this is how you ask for your needs 537 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 2: to be met or this is all you know, and 538 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 2: you can change that. With a narcissist, however, their actions, 539 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 2: the function, or the underlying reason behind everything they do 540 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 2: is always going to be about control, power and dominance 541 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 2: over another person. Always. It's just dressed up in various 542 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 2: ways brought to their attention. What are you talking about? 543 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,479 Speaker 2: You know you're crazy. I didn't do that. That's not 544 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 2: what I said. All the gas lighting type things, right, 545 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 2: you need help? You know you do this with everybody, 546 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 2: this is why you have no friends, Like why would 547 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 2: I hide your phone on purpose? Like what is wrong 548 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 2: with you? That kind of stuff. So they have no 549 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 2: intention of changing. Ever, they have no remorse, they have 550 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 2: no empathy, and their goal is to control and manipulate you, 551 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 2: not because this is all they know. But when brought 552 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 2: to their attention, they don't want to be like this anymore. 553 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 1: Right, So I was going to ask, can narcissists actually 554 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 1: love someone in a healthy way? But it sounds like 555 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 1: that's a no. 556 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,680 Speaker 2: They can't. And you know, I know there's people say 557 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 2: I get this all the time, like you're a psychologist, 558 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 2: how could you say this? That's so horrible. Everybody can 559 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 2: change and you're stigmatizing that. 560 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:36,719 Speaker 1: I'm not. 561 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 2: I'm just reporting the behaviors. And I can tell you 562 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 2: that in all my years of practicing I have I 563 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:53,240 Speaker 2: have never seen a narcissist change, only never. The only 564 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 2: times I have ever seen a narcissist change is when 565 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:02,760 Speaker 2: they're pretending they have changed because they need to get 566 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 2: something from family court, or because they need to get 567 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 2: out of some sort of trouble, or they're trying to 568 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 2: reconcile with their ex because they want to get back 569 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 2: in and control them. They they have cognitive empathy, which 570 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 2: means they know how they're supposed to feel and they 571 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,120 Speaker 2: know what they're supposed to think. So they're able to 572 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,560 Speaker 2: mimic it, but they don't feel it and they don't 573 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 2: think it. 574 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 1: It's still to get the result that they want. Yes, yes, 575 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 1: Oh my god, that is so intense. 576 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 2: They know they know what they're doing. And that's the 577 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:37,239 Speaker 2: hardest pill for people to swallow, because then we have 578 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 2: to accept, oh my god, they're willingly evil, right like, 579 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 2: they're willingly hurting me, they're willingly abusing me what like. 580 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 2: And so I know a lot of people have a 581 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 2: hard time with that. I understand why, but I and 582 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 2: I think if you spoke to my colleagues they would 583 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,800 Speaker 2: say the same thing, that the likelihood of somebody changing 584 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 2: is it's very slimple what you will find. You have 585 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 2: self aware narcissists all the time that are on Instagram 586 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 2: social media talking about what it's life like. Is a 587 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,280 Speaker 2: narcissist and that's not because they've changed. 588 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:11,720 Speaker 1: Wait is that real? Is that a thing? 589 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 2: There was a whole like New York Times. I think 590 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 2: it was not New York Times, The New Yorker or 591 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 2: one of them. There was this huge article with all 592 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 2: these famous social media influencers self aware narcissists. Now one 593 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 2: or two of them. I follow, not because I think 594 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 2: they've feeled, but because hearing their perception of why they 595 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 2: do what they do gives me insight as a psychologist. 596 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 2: Right right, they haven't. 597 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 1: Changed, no, and then they're getting attention for it, which 598 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 1: is just feeding the fire, feeling the fire exactly exactly. 599 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,239 Speaker 1: So for someone who's listening, who might be questioning their 600 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 1: own relationship, what is one thing they should pay attention 601 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:08,160 Speaker 1: to right away? 602 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 2: Ask themselves what immediately comes up for them in their 603 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 2: gut when they think about setting a boundary with this person. 604 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,560 Speaker 2: And if it's interesting, if it's one of fear, or 605 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,280 Speaker 2: your body just goes into this like h feeling, or 606 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:30,240 Speaker 2: you get you know, it's that overwhelming anxiety, that's something 607 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 2: to pay attention to. 608 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:35,920 Speaker 1: That's such a good that is such a good gauge. 609 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, and then you know what would happen if you 610 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 2: went outside the general status quo that the narcissists set 611 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 2: for you. I'm going to go out with my friends tonight. 612 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 2: What happens? Right? Do you come home? And the doors locked. 613 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,840 Speaker 2: Do you come home your closer outside. Do they call 614 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 2: you non stop the whole entire night to ruin the 615 00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,400 Speaker 2: night just because they don't have control over you anymore? 616 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 2: Do they feign sickness? Like what what happens? 617 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 1: Wow? Yeah? So what is one myth about narcissism or 618 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 1: gaslighting that you really want people to stop believing. 619 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:15,640 Speaker 2: That narcissists are attracted to weak people? They are nuts. 620 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:22,560 Speaker 2: They are attracted to very smart, successful, attractive, strong people. 621 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:25,799 Speaker 2: And the reason for that, Yeah, the reason for that 622 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,000 Speaker 2: is because and this still to this day it gives 623 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:29,279 Speaker 2: me chills on the back of my neck when I 624 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:33,280 Speaker 2: explain this, But a narcissist's whole aim is to gain 625 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,360 Speaker 2: power and control over somebody else. Their primary goal is 626 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,279 Speaker 2: to suck this person dry of their entire sense of 627 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:42,239 Speaker 2: self until they are nothing, which is why suicide rates 628 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:46,360 Speaker 2: are oddly higher within these types of dynamics, because the 629 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 2: person is just just vaporized, so to speak. You can't 630 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:56,319 Speaker 2: get all of that from somebody who starts out with 631 00:34:56,400 --> 00:35:00,839 Speaker 2: low self esteem. There's nowhere for them to fall, and 632 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:03,960 Speaker 2: so they take everything that this person has that they want. 633 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 2: They take everything their success, their intelligence, their energy, all 634 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 2: of it and just suck them dry until there's nothing left. 635 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:12,680 Speaker 2: If they start with somebody that has low self esteem, 636 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:15,279 Speaker 2: well they don't get anything from that. Their goal is 637 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:19,440 Speaker 2: to watch them fall by the time the relationship has 638 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:21,959 Speaker 2: progressed or is at the end of the relationship. Now 639 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 2: we see somebody who has no self esteem, right, sense 640 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 2: of self, no identity. But that's because of the relationship. 641 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:31,920 Speaker 1: That wasn't the industry, right, that's not how they began. 642 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:36,359 Speaker 2: No, they are drawn towards people that are empathetic, yes, absolutely, 643 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:39,880 Speaker 2: but they are not drawn to weak people or people 644 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:41,879 Speaker 2: with low self esteem. So I think that's a huge 645 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:42,560 Speaker 2: myth that people. 646 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:47,799 Speaker 1: Oh so, once someone has experienced this kind of relationship, 647 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 1: then how do they rebuild that trust in themselves. 648 00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:56,200 Speaker 2: It's really hard. It's a really long long process because 649 00:35:56,280 --> 00:36:00,759 Speaker 2: not only do they have to you know, I think 650 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:02,719 Speaker 2: one of the saddest things I have ever heard from 651 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:04,719 Speaker 2: a patient after she got out of the relationship was, 652 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 2: you know, she said to me, She's like, I gotta 653 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,319 Speaker 2: be honest. She goes, I have no idea who I am. 654 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:11,279 Speaker 2: I feel like a shell of my former self, which 655 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 2: we hear all the time. She goes I don't even 656 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:14,680 Speaker 2: know what kind of ice cream I like. 657 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:16,360 Speaker 1: Wow. 658 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:19,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like it breaks you down so much that you 659 00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,880 Speaker 2: don't even know. You don't even know what music you like. 660 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:24,560 Speaker 2: You don't know what kind of movies you like, you 661 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,480 Speaker 2: don't know what's your favorite color, you don't know how 662 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 2: you like to dress, and so you have to totally 663 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:34,360 Speaker 2: rebuild yourself and it's a really long process, and you 664 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:38,320 Speaker 2: doubt yourself and you don't trust people, and it really 665 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:41,960 Speaker 2: is a level of trauma that is really really deep. 666 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:45,080 Speaker 2: And I don't think people understand that. And I think 667 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:47,399 Speaker 2: the worst. I don't know if it's worse. I guess 668 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 2: it's the way you look at it. Those are intimate relationships. 669 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:53,479 Speaker 2: Think about growing up with a narcissistic parent. You never 670 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:55,960 Speaker 2: had a sense of identity. You were always told who 671 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 2: to be. So if you cut ties from a narcissic 672 00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:02,279 Speaker 2: family member, now you're really starting from scratch. You don't 673 00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:05,719 Speaker 2: have a pre existing you. So it depends on the 674 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:09,239 Speaker 2: relationship type. But I will say this, it is not 675 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:11,239 Speaker 2: all doom of bloom. It is very hard, but there 676 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:13,080 Speaker 2: is a light at the end of the tunnel, and 677 00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:15,400 Speaker 2: once you get that empowerment and once you're able to 678 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:17,239 Speaker 2: figure out who you are and who you want to 679 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:19,120 Speaker 2: be and what you want to shift, and you realize 680 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:22,440 Speaker 2: that's totally in your control. Then you really start to 681 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:27,480 Speaker 2: feel strong. And I have never met people stronger in 682 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,600 Speaker 2: my life than people who have survived narcissistic abuse. They are. 683 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:35,400 Speaker 1: I mean, that's so interesting because I've been so struck 684 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:42,720 Speaker 1: by the people that, like Elizabeth Smart and I interviewed 685 00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:45,319 Speaker 1: Sarah Edmonton who was in the next same called, and 686 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:49,760 Speaker 1: you know, people that have overcome these things and turned 687 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:54,840 Speaker 1: them into something powerful and meaning. It is like these women, 688 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:57,480 Speaker 1: especially those are the ones I've spoken to. They've all 689 00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:01,920 Speaker 1: been women Amanda Knox, you know, a different situation but 690 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:09,440 Speaker 1: still gone through something so intensely tragic. And the power 691 00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:16,799 Speaker 1: that these people have that is really it's just a centered, grounded, 692 00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:22,560 Speaker 1: extraordinary thing like that. I am just so impressed by. 693 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,319 Speaker 2: I could not agree more. I could not agree more. 694 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:27,480 Speaker 2: And I tell them when they get to that point 695 00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:31,040 Speaker 2: and you can look at this and feel so almost 696 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:35,839 Speaker 2: I don't recognize that person, you know, And you'll get 697 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:37,719 Speaker 2: to that point and you'll know that you've feeled but 698 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:40,160 Speaker 2: I could not agree with you more. It's the strongest 699 00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:42,320 Speaker 2: people I have ever encountered in my life. 700 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:47,640 Speaker 1: Wow. Okay, I'm at doctor Jamie. This has been amazing you. 701 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:52,319 Speaker 1: I have thoroughly enjoyed this. You are a wealth of 702 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:56,040 Speaker 1: knowledge and so articulate, and I feel like this is 703 00:38:56,080 --> 00:39:01,960 Speaker 1: a really will an incredible challenging topic. You're you talk 704 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:05,920 Speaker 1: about it in a way that's very digestible. Pieces that 705 00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:11,120 Speaker 1: are there, they're they're applicable and you know, understandable. So 706 00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:15,480 Speaker 1: I really appreciate this and your time. So you can 707 00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:18,200 Speaker 1: get in touch with doctor Zuckerman. You could buy her books, 708 00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:21,560 Speaker 1: learn about her coaching and therapy services on her website 709 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:26,400 Speaker 1: doctor Jamie Zuckerman dot com, or visit her YouTube channel 710 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:31,160 Speaker 1: at doctor Jamie Zuckerman. It's j A, I M E. Jamie. 711 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:35,000 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your time today. Is there 712 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:36,440 Speaker 1: anything else you want to say? 713 00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:39,399 Speaker 2: No, just thank you for talking about this topic. It's 714 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:42,600 Speaker 2: it's so important, especially you know, with everything being watered 715 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:45,160 Speaker 2: down about it. So I'm really, you know, just thankful 716 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:47,600 Speaker 2: for you for doing this. You'll help a lot of people. 717 00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:48,120 Speaker 2: So thank you. 718 00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:51,560 Speaker 1: Great, my pleasure. It's been wonderful to meet you. Thank 719 00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:52,120 Speaker 1: you so much.