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Speaker 1: Welcome to today's edition of The Clay Travis and Buck

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Speaker 1: Sexton Show podcast.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the Wednesday edition of The Clay Travis and

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Speaker 2: Buck Sexton Show. They did it, They dropped the indictment

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Speaker 2: relating to the twenty twenty election of January sixth. They

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Speaker 2: did it right a couple hours after we finished the

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Speaker 2: show yesterday. So I thought it was going to happen.

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Speaker 2: We all thought it was gonna happen sometime this week,

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Speaker 2: and sure enough it is here. Now there's a lot

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Speaker 2: going on. We're going to talk about this in detail today. Yes,

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Speaker 2: it is in a front to our judicial system. Yes,

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Speaker 2: it is Banana Republic, third world imprison your enemy's politically nonsense. Yes,

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Speaker 2: it's a preposterous standard that they are using for this indictment.

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Speaker 2: We're gonna look at it legally, though, we're gonna look

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Speaker 2: at it politically historically and trying to get a sense

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Speaker 2: as to where all this is going. To that end,

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Speaker 2: we'll have our friend Andy McCarthy with us in the

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Speaker 2: second hour, Julie Kelly with us in the third hour,

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Speaker 2: and coming off of vacation. Because that's right, Clay, the

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Speaker 2: Clay never stops. He's going to be joining us in

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Speaker 2: the bottom of this hour from his vacation because he

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Speaker 2: wants to weigh in on this moment understandably, So Clay

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Speaker 2: will be with us in just a little bit. In

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Speaker 2: the meantime, let's talk about what we know at this point.

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Speaker 2: The four count indictment includes conspiracy to defraud the United States,

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Speaker 2: conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding, obstruction of an attempt

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Speaker 2: to obstruct an official proceeding, and conspiracy against rights.

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Speaker 3: These are all.

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Speaker 2: Charges that you could drive the proverbial mac truck through

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Speaker 2: if you wanted to, right, I mean, this very vague stuff.

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Speaker 2: And once you read the indictment, which I tweeted about

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Speaker 2: this yesterday, I read read it as soon as it

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Speaker 2: came out, it just reads like a Rachel Maddow monologue

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Speaker 2: over at MSNBC. It's you know, and then he he

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Speaker 2: must have known this wasn't true. And Trump took this

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Speaker 2: legal theory and the legal advisors around him and it

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Speaker 2: was all lies about the election, and they were pushing lies.

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Speaker 2: And let's just take a step back for a moment.

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Speaker 2: The First Amendment clearly protects lies of politicians or else

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Speaker 2: all of our politicians, really, all of them would be

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Speaker 2: in prison. You are allowed to say things that end

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Speaker 2: up not being true except in very specific circumstances. Right,

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Speaker 2: if you are under oath, then it is a matter

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Speaker 2: of fact, not a matter of opinion. That is perjury

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Speaker 2: if you defame somebody on a matter of fact that

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Speaker 2: you know to be wrong. Yeah, there are some areas

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Speaker 2: very specific and narrow in the law, but I believe

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Speaker 2: this legal theory should be tested out. They are criminalizing

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Speaker 2: legal theory here. They are criminalizing trying to use the

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Speaker 2: legal process. And anybody out there who's a defense attorney

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Speaker 2: must be like, well, this is crazy, because, as we know,

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Speaker 2: we have a system that is set up an oppositional

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Speaker 2: system where you are entitled the most vigorous defense. You

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Speaker 2: are also entitled to try to use the law as

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Speaker 2: strenuously as possible in an effort to achieve a result

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Speaker 2: that you think is just that is the way the

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Speaker 2: system is. If it isn't that way, what do we

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Speaker 2: have And then think about what this would mean. Oh,

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Speaker 2: that that defense that you brought in court, it's so

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Speaker 2: flimsy that now we're going to prosecute you for your

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Speaker 2: bad defense. This is something that could rightly be described

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Speaker 2: as Kafka ask, this is something you would expect in

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Speaker 2: an authoritarian system, where any objection to what the system

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Speaker 2: is trying to produce creates this kind of reaction. Donald

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Speaker 2: Trump himself, as we know, is an affront in their

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Speaker 2: minds to their system. He is a challenge to the

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Speaker 2: way things are done, and that is why they're doing

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Speaker 2: everything they can destroy him. They are tearing down some

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Speaker 2: of our most important not just institutions, but principles along

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Speaker 2: with them. The notion that they will be able to

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Speaker 2: prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Donald Trump did not

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Speaker 2: believe the election was stolen from him is absurd. The

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Speaker 2: notion that they're going to be able to prove that

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Speaker 2: there was no basis for conferring with lawyers about a

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Speaker 2: legal theory, given that they believe that there were improprieties

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Speaker 2: in the election. This is just criminalizing the difference of

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Speaker 2: opinion over the election. I mean, you know, it's a

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Speaker 2: good thing. I guess for al Gore, the statute of

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Speaker 2: limitations on two thousand has already run out right. It's

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Speaker 2: a good thing that this legal theory wasn't applied in

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Speaker 2: the past, or that the people in the FBI, for example,

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Speaker 2: who waged the Russia collusion hoax to try to undo

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Speaker 2: the twenty sixteen election. That was the entire purpose. Were

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Speaker 2: any of them punished. No, Remember the senior FBI, including

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Speaker 2: the head of the FBI, whether we're talking about Comy

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Speaker 2: or McCabe, his little stewge who took over, they were

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Speaker 2: able to get away with. We were so stupid that

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Speaker 2: we really believed we had to get a faiza set

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Speaker 2: up on people who are low level campaign associates or

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Speaker 2: employees of Trump because they were helping Russia and Russia

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Speaker 2: was helping Trump steal the election. It was insane. They

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Speaker 2: didn't believe that was a pretext. But they were able

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Speaker 2: to get away with. Well, we thought so. We abused

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Speaker 2: the law, misuse of official position, misuse of national security powers.

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Speaker 2: Never mind all the leaking that went on that was

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Speaker 2: never punished in twenty sixteen, including of the General Flynn

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Speaker 2: Ambassador kizil Yak phone call, remember that one. Remember their

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Speaker 2: abuse of the Logan Act. Oh, we had to sit

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Speaker 2: down with General Flynn because we thought he was abusing

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Speaker 2: the act. He was violating the Logan Act. They never

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Speaker 2: been charged in two hundred years. Look at the legal

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Speaker 2: progression when we talk about the weaponization. This is not

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Speaker 2: a one off. This is what they have been building to.

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Speaker 2: They created this legal theory of they the Democrats, they

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Speaker 2: the deep state. The abuse of the Logan Act was

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Speaker 2: how they went after General Flynn. They then tried to

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Speaker 2: bring out the emolument's clause because Trump had business interests,

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Speaker 2: you know, hotels that were still in operation, et cetera.

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Speaker 2: They then used the Russia collusion. Collusion wasn't even a

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Speaker 2: crime in the context they used it. They should have

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Speaker 2: said conspiracy, but they didn't like that word. They tried

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Speaker 2: to abuse that, and now here we are with criminalizing

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Speaker 2: differences of approach to a legal matter in election. Election

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Speaker 2: law is very complicated how elections are conducted, and each

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Speaker 2: and every state is different. As we all know, that

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Speaker 2: is the system that we have. There were challenges that

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Speaker 2: were brought in court. Those challenges were not successful. But

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Speaker 2: the elector's component of this and some of the other

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Speaker 2: aspects of Trump's strategy.

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Speaker 3: People they can dislike it.

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Speaker 2: They can think that it's you know, trying to ice

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Speaker 2: the kicker, so to speak. It'll call in the time out.

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Speaker 2: They can think, oh, you know, are you really going

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Speaker 2: to do that? They can say it's up on the edge,

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Speaker 2: but you're going to lock somebody up in prison for this. Remember,

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Speaker 2: they did not charge incitement to insurrection. They did not

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Speaker 2: charge the highest crimes possible here. And I think it's

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Speaker 2: because they recognize their fallback is this is going to

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Speaker 2: happen in Washington.

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Speaker 3: D C.

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Speaker 2: The judge who has been assigned to this, if you

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Speaker 2: were tasked with picking by record based on her treatment

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Speaker 2: of the January sixth detainees, the most anti Trump federal

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Speaker 2: judge possible, they got her. She is probably more so

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Speaker 2: than any other, has a clear record, And even the

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Speaker 2: Libs don't argue with this, the single most anti Trump

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Speaker 2: judge that he could have gotten. Do we think that

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Speaker 2: she's going to be fair with regard to motions? Do

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Speaker 2: we think that she's going to be fair with regard

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Speaker 2: to then you change? She should throw this out right away.

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Speaker 2: I don't think anyone's arguing that they think she will,

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Speaker 2: because they know what we're dealing with here. This is

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Speaker 2: the system, this is what they have been building toward

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Speaker 2: this whole time. Oh and I didn't even talk about

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Speaker 2: the usage of Farah as a criminal tool, a criminal weapon.

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Speaker 3: To go after Donald Trump.

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Speaker 2: Associates before the Foreign Agents Registration Act, which Hunter Biden

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Speaker 2: clearly egregiously violated over a number of years, but he

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Speaker 2: hasn't been charged with that yet.

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Speaker 3: I wonder why, Gee.

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Speaker 2: The timing of all of this isn't that interesting as well.

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Speaker 2: The timing comes down write when it is clear that

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Speaker 2: the Biden crime families global operations are now a matter

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Speaker 2: of public record and beyond dispute. The corruption the bribery

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Speaker 2: could not be more clear at this point. Oh, and

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Speaker 2: suddenly they have to come up with this additional federal prosecution,

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Speaker 2: yet another one. And we're still waiting on Atlanta, which

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Speaker 2: is probably gonna happen here and the next it could

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Speaker 2: be in the days ahead, maybe the weeks ahead. What

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Speaker 2: is more likely, friends that Donald Trump was able to

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Speaker 2: live his entire life, all the way up through running

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Speaker 2: for and then becoming president of the United States without

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Speaker 2: a single criminal prosecution, never once. But then he challenges

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Speaker 2: the system and they decide that they hate him, and

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Speaker 2: he insults them, which he does, and he's very good

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Speaker 2: at it, and then all of a sudden he faces

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Speaker 2: how many criminal trials at once. One of the first

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Speaker 2: things Trump pointed out, they waited until Now they've waited

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Speaker 2: until there is no way that you could even argue

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Speaker 2: this is not meant to influence the twenty twenty four election.

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Speaker 3: And what's at stake here, Well, the justice.

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Speaker 2: System is really the bedrocket is a foundation upon which

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Speaker 2: all the rest of our institutions function and are based on.

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Speaker 2: If you don't have a justice system, what do you have,

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Speaker 2: some kind of a winner take all mobocracy. If you

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Speaker 2: can't trust the justice system, if it becomes a tool,

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Speaker 2: a weapon, a cudgel of one side of the aisle,

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Speaker 2: what comes next, Ah, the death of the democracy that

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Speaker 2: they think they are defending in the first place. Now,

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Speaker 2: I know we are republic, not a democracy, but they

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Speaker 2: always love to call it a democracy. Nonetheless, you know

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Speaker 2: what this really comes down to. I thought this was

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Speaker 2: especially noteworthy. You know, the New York Times announced this

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Speaker 2: to their anti Trump, left wing lunatic readership. This was

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Speaker 2: their headline, Trump charged in bid to subvert democracy. This,

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Speaker 2: my friends, is the entire Biden twenty twenty four election campaign,

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Speaker 2: summarize for you in one headline, Trump charged and bid

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Speaker 2: tosubvert democracy. It doesn't matter that Joe Biden is decrepit

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Speaker 2: and wildly corrupt and dishonest and incompetent. It doesn't matter

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Speaker 2: that the economy is stumbling along. It doesn't matter the

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Speaker 2: border is wide open. It doesn't matter that the cities

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Speaker 2: are turning into hellscapes with crime and disorder and people

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Speaker 2: just doing drugs in open air, and all the things

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Speaker 2: that we see. They're going to argue none of it matters,

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Speaker 2: because if Trump wins, it all ends. And the tragic

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Speaker 2: irony of this is in their efforts to stop the

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Speaker 2: make believe Trump induced death of democracy, they themselves are

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Speaker 2: the ones that are pushing this to the very limit.

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Speaker 2: They themselves are the ones that are creating systemic risk

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Speaker 2: for our republic, because once you have the political opponent

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Speaker 2: getting locked up of this Biden regime, the primary political

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Speaker 2: opponent even possibly facing prison either of these outcomes, both

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Speaker 2: of those are possible. We already know he's facing prison time.

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Speaker 2: God knows what's going to happen in this DC. I

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Speaker 2: didn't even talk about the jury yet, which we will.

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Speaker 2: They're bringing this in the most anti Trump city with

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Speaker 2: the highest Democrat registration and the most swamp creatures, the

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Speaker 2: most swamped tentacles, the most swamp connection of any place

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Speaker 2: you could find in the entire country. And they're doing

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Speaker 2: this and telling us that it's about justice, and they

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Speaker 2: expect us to accept that. It's outrageous. It's outrageous, and

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Speaker 2: people are going to be asking what do we do?

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Speaker 2: Friends of mine, family members, they ask me, Buck, what

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Speaker 2: do we do about this? We stand strong, we stand tall,

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Speaker 2: and we find a.

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Speaker 3: Way to win. That's it. We win or they do.

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Speaker 2: And look what they're doing right now to achieve their goal.

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Speaker 2: Look the lengths. Look at the lengths at which they're

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Speaker 2: willing to go. So this is a wake up call, everybody,

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Speaker 2: wake up call for all of us. They are defeated

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Speaker 2: in this effort and they lose the twenty twenty four

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Speaker 2: election or else, it really is time to start thinking

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Speaker 2: about whether this is a free country, whether this is

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Speaker 2: the great republic that we were handed before the lunatic

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Speaker 2: commi Democrats decided that everything and anything was justified in

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Speaker 2: their quest to stop one politician, one man.

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Speaker 3: Oh God, heaven forbid, we have peace and auroring economy again.

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Speaker 2: Wouldn't that be? Wouldn't that be such a terrible thing.

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Speaker 2: It's it's the stunning and sad thing to watch. But

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Speaker 2: it's also, as I said, a. It's a wake up

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Speaker 2: call for all of us what we really face here.

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Speaker 2: And it's just beginning. So strap in, my friends, we'll

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Speaker 2: get into more of this. Like I said, legal analysis,

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Speaker 2: political analysis. Also want to take your calls eight hundred

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Speaker 2: two eighty two to two eight a two. Clay's going

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Speaker 2: to join us in a little bit. He's going to

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Speaker 2: pop pop out from his vacation with his family and

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Speaker 2: way in on this one. So I know it's important

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Speaker 2: name its imported to all of us. We'll get to

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Speaker 2: that here.

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Speaker 2: Clay and Buck.

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Speaker 1: The Truth Compass pointing do right every day.

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Speaker 3: The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton show.

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Speaker 2: The indictment on Election twenty twenty in January sixth, related

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Speaker 2: issues from these Democrats. That's want to note that there

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Speaker 2: are co conspirators named as well. One of the people

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Speaker 2: named as a co conspirator is the man who was

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Speaker 2: for years the greatest mayor in the country, Rudy Giuliani.

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Speaker 2: Here he is pointing out what's really going on here,

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Speaker 2: which is criminalizing free speech, First Amendment rights and really

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Speaker 2: access to the legal system.

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Speaker 3: Play clip four.

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Speaker 4: Here's what I say to Jack Smith after the Supreme

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Speaker 4: Court throughout your case, which should should have been a disgrace,

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Speaker 4: and you should have gone and found another profession because

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Speaker 4: you don't belong in this one. This one will be

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Speaker 4: your legacy, violating the rite of free speech of an

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Speaker 4: American citizen.

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Speaker 1: Never mind whether he was president or not.

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Speaker 3: It could be anybody, it.

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Speaker 4: Could be a homeless person. You don't get to violate

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Speaker 4: people's first amendments, right Smith, No.

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Speaker 1: Matter who the hell you are, but no matter how sick.

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Speaker 4: You are with Trump's derangement syndrome. And this isn't the

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Speaker 4: first time you've acted like an unethical lawyer. It should

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Speaker 4: be the last.

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Speaker 3: So there we have it.

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Speaker 2: He's seeing exactly what's coming at them now. These so

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Speaker 2: called alleged co conspirators in this are Trump's lawyers, everybody.

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Speaker 2: They're trying to throw the lawyers into the mix too.

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Speaker 2: Nothing in the law is sacred to the Democrats other

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Speaker 2: than get Trump.

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Speaker 3: That's it.

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Speaker 2: There's no other principle at work here other than destroy

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Speaker 2: by Palm Beach Research Group. Hi, everybody, welcome back to Klay,

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Speaker 2: Travis and bucks exon show. A big day in the news,

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Speaker 2: as you all know, a troubling day for this country

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Speaker 2: and one that will go down to the history books.

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Speaker 2: I think ignominiously. Our friend, our co host, our main man,

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Speaker 2: Clay Travis steps away from his vacation with his family

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Speaker 2: to bring you his thoughts on this.

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Speaker 3: Now, mister Clay, I knew you'd come back. What's going on?

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Speaker 1: Well, this is what happens.

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Speaker 5: Right Like I go on vacation, Trump gets indicted and

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Speaker 5: I'll be back on Monday. But just like what happened

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Speaker 5: the last time I was on vacation, Trump got indicted

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Speaker 5: down in Miami, and now this happens obviously on Tuesday evening.

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Speaker 5: And look to me, Buck, I expected so much more

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Speaker 5: after all of the all of the lead up to

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Speaker 5: what Jack Smith was going to be able to get

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Speaker 5: Donald Trump for. I actually think the Miami case, which

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Speaker 5: I don't believe we'll get any conviction on because I

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Speaker 5: don't think a South Florida jury is going to convict Trump,

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Speaker 5: is way more legitimate than what he has charged Trump

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Speaker 5: with associated with January sixth, And in particular, Buck, what

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Speaker 5: jumps out to me as I read the indictment yesterday

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Speaker 5: and as I still continue to think about it on Wednesday,

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Speaker 5: is essentially Jack Smith has tried to criminalize legal advice

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Speaker 5: and for people out there who don't understand this, I

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Speaker 5: think it's really important. Lawyers debate whether cases make sense

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Speaker 5: all the time. Buck, This is not uncommon. If you

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Speaker 5: have a room full of lawyers, you can get seven

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Speaker 5: eight different opinions from seven or eight different lawyers about

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Speaker 5: whether a case makes sense or not. And to me,

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Speaker 5: the essence of this, again at its pure distillation, is

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Speaker 5: they changed the law to try to eliminate any uncertainty

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Speaker 5: surrounding what the vice president's role was when it came

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Speaker 5: to receiving the electoral votes. Buck, if you knew beyond

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Speaker 5: a chef of a doubt that this legal claim had

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Speaker 5: no merit at all, why in December of twenty twenty

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Speaker 5: two did Congress change the rules relating to an act

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Speaker 5: that went back to eighteen eighty seven to specify that

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Speaker 5: the vice president was primarily engaging in a ceremonial role

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Speaker 5: and didn't have the authority to engage in any sort

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Speaker 5: of analysis of whether the electoral votes were legitimate or not.

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Speaker 5: To me, this is an open and shutcase, and I

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Speaker 5: actually think it's going to go to the extent that

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Speaker 5: it survives, and it probably will because the forum is

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Speaker 5: so favorable the Supreme Court I think will vote maybe

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Speaker 5: seven too maybe even nine to zero, that this is

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Speaker 5: not a legitimate use of power, and that these charges

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Speaker 5: in DC are entirely illegitimate, not founded in the law,

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Speaker 5: and that Trump had every right to engage in the

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Speaker 5: behavior that he did, acting on the advice of some

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Speaker 5: of his legal counsel.

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Speaker 2: Do you think that that's going to happen though in

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Speaker 2: advance of trial? Like, what's what do you think the

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Speaker 2: process is going to be here? For the We got

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Speaker 2: multiple criminal trials going on. So let's assume that d

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Speaker 2: C goes before the election, they'll have to go to

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Speaker 2: the Court of Appeals. Right, that's the first to try

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Speaker 2: to There's a whole bunch of things that venues should

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Speaker 2: be adjudicated here. The judge, as as a lot of

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Speaker 2: folks are noticing, is basically the worst judge for Trump

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Speaker 2: based on record. That how that happens, Huh, Yeah, it's funny.

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Speaker 3: How that went down that way. And see what's going

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Speaker 3: on right now?

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Speaker 2: You say to yourself, Okay, they're probably not going to

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Speaker 2: let them change venue, because they didn't let any other

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Speaker 2: jan six cases change venue. They're not going to let

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Speaker 2: them change the judge, which means the trial is going

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Speaker 2: to go forward. So then the appeals court for the

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Speaker 2: appeals Court in D C. District, I mean the DC

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Speaker 2: Court of Appeals. You can't I can't think that that's

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Speaker 2: going to go his way.

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Speaker 5: Well, I think Buck, you could probably get an expedited.

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Speaker 5: First of all, I don't think, and I've been on

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Speaker 5: the record, I could end up being wrong. But I

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Speaker 5: don't think they're going to be able to get these

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Speaker 5: trials done before the election. So I think the twenty

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Speaker 5: twenty four election is going to have already occurred before

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Speaker 5: we get a full result in Miami South Florida area

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Speaker 5: or in DC. We're going to have it in New

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Speaker 5: York for sure, may get a result in New York,

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Speaker 5: but I think that's such a trivial, trivial crime. They'll

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Speaker 5: be an appeal and everything else. I don't think it'll

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Speaker 5: have any real impact. I actually so, I would suspect

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Speaker 5: that they will expedite in the event that there was

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Speaker 5: a trial, They would, I believe, expedite this review very quickly,

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Speaker 5: and I think it would run through the DC Circuit,

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Speaker 5: through the and through the Supreme Court, and I think

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Speaker 5: they would toss this out so I expected and I

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Speaker 5: haven't even read I don't know if you've had a

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Speaker 5: chance to spend very much time even reading the left

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Speaker 5: wing opinions on this. And I don't mean like the

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Speaker 5: slanted news coverage. I mean lawyers looking at this and saying,

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Speaker 5: I mean, I expected this. This is so much closer

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Speaker 5: to New York City the charge is there than it

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Speaker 5: is to Miami, because there are arguments that Trump based

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Speaker 5: on obstruction refusing to turn over the documents. I don't

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Speaker 5: think we'll get a conviction in South Florida. But when

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Speaker 5: I read that indictment, we came on Buck and I

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Speaker 5: was like, Okay, this is a different level. Trump could

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Speaker 5: behaved recklessly here. There's nothing. I mean, it almost feels

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Speaker 5: like this story is almost vanished because the left wing,

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Speaker 5: I think, was hoping, Oh, he's going to get charged

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Speaker 5: with sedition, He's going to get charged with treason, all

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Speaker 5: these different things, and you've got a conspiracy that's basically

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Speaker 5: rooted in legal discussion.

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Speaker 2: Isn't there the possibility though, of a superseding indictment still?

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Speaker 2: I mean, if you look at the timing of all

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Speaker 2: of this, it comes down right about when the whole

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Speaker 2: Biden House of Cards is, of course right, very hard

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Speaker 2: not to notice that this is going on, just as

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Speaker 2: we see everything they said about how Joe never talked

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Speaker 2: a hunter about us. Oh, actually he was on speaker

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Speaker 2: for all with him like twenty times. Joe wasn't a

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Speaker 2: part of this. Actually Joe Biden was the brand. All

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Speaker 2: that comes down and they try to put the final

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Speaker 2: nail in the legal coffin of the Trump campaign, and

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Speaker 2: it does feel like, wow, that's quite a coincidence. There's

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Speaker 2: still the possibility of though, just as we saw in Florida,

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Speaker 2: of a superseding indictment that would include more.

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Speaker 1: Possibly. I think it looks messy personally.

435
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:31,120
Speaker 5: If you don't have all your ducks in a proverbial road,

436
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:34,359
Speaker 5: doesn't mean they can't do it. But I think this

437
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:36,880
Speaker 5: is their shot. I think this is their shot at

438
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 5: Trump on January sixth. There's always the possibility that new

439
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 5: evidence emerges.

440
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 2: He's name these co conspirators Clayton right in the indictment

441
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:49,440
Speaker 2: that's come down, basically his lawyers. You also notice everybody,

442
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,439
Speaker 2: if you would just beam down to earth, in the

443
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 2: pre Trump era, we had this whole thing in this

444
00:25:55,800 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 2: country of lawyers and attorney client privilege, and that was

445
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 2: something that we considered somewhat sacred in the legal profession.

446
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 2: And now we know Trump's lawyers have been turned against

447
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 2: them numerous times. I think that's the play of the

448
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:13,040
Speaker 2: play here, or the unindicted co conspirators, They're all going

449
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 2: to be offered you totally walk, no problem, you flip

450
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:17,600
Speaker 2: on Trump. And so that's the only way that I

451
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 2: could see them going for some kind of additional charges,

452
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 2: because what they would say is, well, now with the

453
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:27,360
Speaker 2: lawyer's testimony, the co conspirators, now we can nail him down.

454
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 3: You see what I mean.

455
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:32,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, I just again, the theory of this case is

456
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:39,160
Speaker 5: Trump's legal claims were so patently absurd that he actually

457
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 5: engaged in a conspiracy because he knew that those legal

458
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,360
Speaker 5: claims were patently absurd, and he knew that he had

459
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 5: lost the election, and so therefore we got him on

460
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 5: a conspiracy.

461
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 1: And I'll just say this.

462
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 5: I've said it on the show before when I was

463
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,399
Speaker 5: in krimlawbuck my Krim Law professor, he was a legend

464
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:59,320
Speaker 5: at Vanderbilt Law School, Don Hall. He said, the number

465
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 5: one thing that prosecutors always say is, man, we really

466
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 5: don't have a case here, we'll get them on a

467
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:08,399
Speaker 5: conspiracy that's always the weakest of all charges. And so

468
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 5: I just want to take you inside. I've been in

469
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:15,359
Speaker 5: so many discussions with lawyers where everybody's sitting around the

470
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 5: table and you're saying, Okay, what arguments do we have

471
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 5: to make on our side, and lawyers just start spitballing ideas. Okay,

472
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 5: well we'll claim this, we'll claim that, and then in

473
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:30,679
Speaker 5: real time lawyers work through and say, I don't know that.

474
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,359
Speaker 5: I buy into that argument very strong. I like this

475
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 5: argument better. And ultimately, if you read pleadings lawyers all

476
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:41,439
Speaker 5: oftentimes buck will say we believe X, but if X

477
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,679
Speaker 5: doesn't apply, we believe why, and if why doesn't apply,

478
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,160
Speaker 5: we believe Z applies. In other words, you're throwing out

479
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:50,200
Speaker 5: all sorts of legal arguments because you're not sure how

480
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,439
Speaker 5: the Court's going to respond to them. And I just

481
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 5: come back to when they change the law, you can

482
00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:01,680
Speaker 5: argue that this is an expansive, aggressive definition of what

483
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,239
Speaker 5: the vice president's role was. I'm focusing on this in

484
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 5: particular on jan six, But when they changed the law

485
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 5: to eliminate any uncertainty, to me, that ends the argument

486
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 5: that it was an illegitimate argument in the first place,

487
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 5: because the fact that they had to change the law

488
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 5: to remove that ambiguity proves that the ambiguity was there

489
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:27,400
Speaker 5: and that you could make that argument as a legally

490
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 5: colorable claim.

491
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:29,400
Speaker 1: Lawyers.

492
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:34,360
Speaker 5: Here's the other thing, buck, If lawyers make indefensible legal arguments,

493
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 5: the court can sanction those lawyers. And so far as

494
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 5: I have seen, I have not seen any of the

495
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 5: filings that Trump has made, and I'm not an expert

496
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 5: in all of this, I have not seen all of

497
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 5: the lawyers being severely reprimanded for the claims that they

498
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 5: have tried to make. Now, individual Bar associations have gone

499
00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,280
Speaker 5: after some of Trump's lawyers, but that's mostly political. They

500
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 5: tried to go after Rudy Giuliani, They've gone after I mean,

501
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 5: that's just weaponizing blue states against red attorneys.

502
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 1: And unfortunately that's become a real thing too.

503
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 3: Well.

504
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 2: You'd have to wonder, you know, the take it back

505
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 2: to a trial that everybody who's certain age remembers and

506
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 2: pretty clearly OJ's lawyers knew what they were doing wasn't true.

507
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I mean that's often the job of

508
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 1: a defense attorney, right.

509
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 3: They were not idiots.

510
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 2: They knew what had really happened there, but they gave

511
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 2: the most vigorous defense they could and they tried anything

512
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 2: they could within the bounds of the law to get

513
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 2: their client off. And we all know how that happened.

514
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 2: You know, I do think you can argue it's unethical.

515
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 2: I think you can argue it's unseemly, but it's not criminal.

516
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 2: And that's the thing here is you can say you

517
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 2: don't like the actions and people. The real test for this,

518
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:56,719
Speaker 2: or the real punishment should be what did the American

519
00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 2: people think, you know, like in an election. That's how

520
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 2: they should be adjudicated, not trying to throw people in prison.

521
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:03,800
Speaker 1: No doubt.

522
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 5: Buckin And I'll also mention Joe Biden himself has gotten

523
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 5: slapped down by the Supreme Court a lot for legal

524
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 5: theories that he has advanced, including legal theories that he

525
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 5: himself said he knew was unconstitutional. Remember the eviction moratorium.

526
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 5: Biden said, oh, well, the Supreme Court's not going to

527
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 5: allow us to do this. We don't have the authority.

528
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 5: What about student loan forgiveness? Nancy Pelosi said Joe Biden

529
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 5: didn't have the authority to do it. The president can't

530
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 5: just act. In other words, the Supreme Court regularly says

531
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 5: to the President of the United States, you have done

532
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 5: something that is unconstitutional. Under Jack Smith's definition, if you

533
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 5: engaged in illegal argument that you think is unlikely to win,

534
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 5: maybe even that you have publicly said you expect to lose.

535
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 5: That's a conspiracy to defraud the American people. It's just

536
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 5: it is a broken case on its inception.

537
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 2: Problem though with all of this is let's just assume,

538
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 2: because it's almost always the case that you and I

539
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 2: are right in our overall view of this. Right, let's

540
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 2: assume that the legality of this and so many other

541
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 2: We're gonna have any McCarthy on later. You know, I

542
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,239
Speaker 2: know Dershowitz was on Glenn Show this morning, and you

543
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 2: have all the Jonathan Turley I saw his quotes last night.

544
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 3: When this broke, people are saying.

545
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 2: This, this is just it's flimsy, especially for going after

546
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 2: somebody who's running for president right now.

547
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 3: The process is still the punishment. Clay.

548
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's take a look at the politics of this

549
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 2: and a second here we come back. What does it

550
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 2: mean for the Trump campaign, What does it mean for

551
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 2: Biden's hopes of reelection, looking at this more from the

552
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 2: political than the legal lens. And then we will let

553
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 2: Clay go back to his vacation and his family. I said, Clay,

554
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 2: it's okay, You're allowed to take vacation. He's like, the

555
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 2: people need me, I said, sir, I agree, we got you.

556
00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 3: So he's here.

557
00:31:57,680 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 2: We'll come back to him in just a second born

558
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Speaker 2: on America's darkest day of nine to eleven. The Talta

559
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560
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561
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562
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563
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Speaker 2: where he helped get dozens of illegal guns off the streets.

564
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Speaker 2: He was shot and killed during a confrontation with armed

565
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566
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572
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575
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Speaker 3: That's t the number two t dot org.

576
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 5: The Clay and Buck podcast team dives with cool content

577
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 5: surprise guests. Get it all on the iHeart app or

578
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 5: wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back in I'm off

579
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 5: my vacation. You hear me break down everything with Buck.

580
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 5: I couldn't resist. Every time I go on vacation we

581
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 5: end up with these indictments. It feels like, all right, Buck, Politically,

582
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 5: you just teased it as we went to break for me.

583
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,880
Speaker 5: On a political level, I actually don't think this changes

584
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 5: very much, and I think the story will vanish because

585
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 5: there isn't any major new revelation, and so I think

586
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 5: what it does is it strengthens Trump in the Republican primary,

587
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 5: makes it even more likely that he's the nominee, and

588
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 5: simultaneously the Democrats believe weaken him in the general.

589
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 1: We'll see whether that ends up being true.

590
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 5: As we talked about earlier this week, CNN even acknowledged

591
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 5: that Trump is in a stronger position right now than

592
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 5: he was during the twenty sixteen or twenty twenty campaign

593
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 5: at the same time as in the cycle. What's your

594
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 5: big takeaway politically, I.

595
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 2: Think that this is going to be the the big

596
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 2: test of the theory that's out there that Democrats want

597
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 2: Trump to win the primary and they think they can

598
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 2: defeat him in the general. I think that based on

599
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:11,400
Speaker 2: the flimsy nature of this, And remember when we say

600
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:15,360
Speaker 2: that that is their calculation, you can think their calculation

601
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 2: is wrong, and I think a lot of us do,

602
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:20,040
Speaker 2: But that I think is what.

603
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 3: The Democrats are gearing up for.

604
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 2: And I just say that they don't think that they

605
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 2: have to win in court to beat him in the election,

606
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:32,520
Speaker 2: which is the single most important thing to them. These

607
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,840
Speaker 2: criminal trials they believe will help them in the general.

608
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 2: I think that's very I think it's very hard to

609
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 2: argue against that right now from the Democrat mindset.

610
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:44,919
Speaker 5: I also think politically, and we talked about this when

611
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:47,239
Speaker 5: the indictment came down in New York City, and when

612
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,839
Speaker 5: the indictment certainly came down in South Florida. This is

613
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 5: the full culmination of I believe, the destruction of a reasoned,

614
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 5: logical and fair judicial system in this country, in particular

615
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 5: the Department of Justice itself. We've never seen anything like this.

616
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,759
Speaker 5: When I see the weakness of these charges that are

617
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 5: being brought against Trump, I can't help but think this

618
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 5: is now the new normal in America. Maybe Republicans are

619
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 5: not going to do it, but if you charge Trump

620
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:20,920
Speaker 5: under these conspiracy charges, you could charge any politician in

621
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 5: America just about with any kind of conspiracy charge. Because

622
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:29,319
Speaker 5: there's always legal advisors who disagree, and always presidents who

623
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 5: are going to push their executive power to the limit.

624
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 2: It's always Democrats who end up pushing this stuff. I

625
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 2: think of the honest services fraud prosecutions that they've tried

626
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,400
Speaker 2: in the past, which are so expensive, Supreme Court had

627
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 2: to totally strike them down, so expansive as to be

628
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:49,719
Speaker 2: effectively meaningless, Like anything could be considered an intrusion. I

629
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 2: think Scalia actually said in one of his decisions, So

630
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:54,240
Speaker 2: if someone gives you a good table at a restaurant

631
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:56,759
Speaker 2: because you're the CEO of a company, is that can

632
00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:59,240
Speaker 2: not be considered honest services fraud to the APT customer.

633
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 2: The whole thing is but really here, Clay. It also

634
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 2: sends a message, which is the lengths that the Democrats

635
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 2: are willing to go to to get somebody who challenges

636
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:10,320
Speaker 2: them the way that Trump has. They will do anything.

637
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:12,239
Speaker 2: They will cut down all the laws of the nation.

638
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 2: They don't care.

639
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 5: I think that's one hundred percent right. And to your

640
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 5: point on is there more, I mean, I'm in Atlanta

641
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 5: right now. I think there probably will be charges in Atlanta.

642
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:23,800
Speaker 5: The goal will be to keep Trump in the courtroom

643
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 5: throughout twenty twenty four and try to brand him as a.

644
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 2: Felon the question to our people are going to rally,

645
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,399
Speaker 2: it's our people, it's you know, we hop we all

646
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:33,440
Speaker 2: hop in the bunker with them, right. You know what

647
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 2: Democrats are thinking, Independence and swing states are going to

648
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 2: see a lot of Trump walking around courtrooms. That's what

649
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:39,800
Speaker 2: they're thinking.

650
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:42,759
Speaker 5: That's the calculus, and we'll see whether or not it

651
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:46,439
Speaker 5: ends up being true. I hope everybody has a fantastic week.

652
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 5: I'm back with the family now, Buck keep the ship afloat.

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00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 2: I will do my best. No keg parties that go

654
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 2: past two am. See you guys an hour two In

655
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 2: a second,