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Speaker 1: The sixth annual Bloomberg New Economy Forum in Singapore is

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Speaker 1: highlighting the challenges confronting the global economy. We heard from

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Speaker 1: a number of distinguished guests. Singapore's Prime Minister Lisiang Lung

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Speaker 1: was at this year's forum and spoke about the conflict

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Speaker 1: in the Middle East, as well as tensions between the

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Speaker 1: US and China. He spoke with Bloomberg News Editor in

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Speaker 1: chief John Micklethwaite.

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Speaker 2: Normally, as you know, we begin these conversations with the

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Speaker 2: Cold War between.

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Speaker 3: China and America.

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Speaker 2: This time we have two hot wars going on. We

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Speaker 2: have Hamas and Israel, and we have Russias with Ukraine.

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Speaker 2: So can we begin first with Hamas and Israel. On

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Speaker 2: Longtober the seventh, you spoke out loudly to condemn what

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Speaker 2: Hamas did. Then, since then, as the bombing of Gaza

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Speaker 2: has continued, you have called for truce or a ceasefire.

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Speaker 2: You have added things about maybe there's a need to

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Speaker 2: investigate possible war crimes. You have talked about the need

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Speaker 2: to refresh the two states solution. This is a slightly

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Speaker 2: different position to America. I wonder if you could unpack

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Speaker 2: for us how you ended up in that position.

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Speaker 4: Well, we have to take a principal position considering our

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Speaker 4: national interests and considering also the sentiments and.

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Speaker 3: Human reactions of our people.

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Speaker 4: And the principle is that borders are in violate people

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Speaker 4: countries have the right of self defense, and kill of

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Speaker 4: innocent civilians, women, children, old folks or any other civilian.

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Speaker 3: Is against international humanitarian law.

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Speaker 4: And what happened on the seventh of October was not

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Speaker 4: just against international law, but a horrendous terrorist attack on

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Speaker 4: an enormous scale. So we fully understand how the Israelis

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Speaker 4: feel about it and why they have reacted the way

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Speaker 4: they have done. But what has happened since then in

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Speaker 4: Gaza as a consequence of Israeli operations is an enormous

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Speaker 4: human tragedy. The numbers are keep on ticking up every day,

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Speaker 4: but as many times as many as what happened on

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Speaker 4: the seventh of October. Again, women, children, and many innocent civilians.

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Speaker 4: The destruction is on an enormous scale.

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Speaker 3: And.

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Speaker 4: Everybody around the world looks and this in despair and say,

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Speaker 4: surely this has to stop. Whatever the rights and wrongs,

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Speaker 4: you must pay attention to the humanitarian considerations. And we

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Speaker 4: have tried to express that in our statements. I think

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Speaker 4: it's important that we recognize both the evil things which

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Speaker 4: are done and the first attack in the seventh of October,

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Speaker 4: and also the very very tragic things which are happening

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Speaker 4: in Gaza now.

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Speaker 3: And you have to be quite.

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Speaker 4: We have to exhort the Israelis and everybody else to

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Speaker 4: abide by international norms and to have a consideration for

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Speaker 4: innocent civilians.

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Speaker 2: Do you think there is a long term solution. You've

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Speaker 2: always been a supporter of the two state solution. Is

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Speaker 2: that still possible?

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Speaker 4: There is no alternative to that. It's very difficult. It

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Speaker 4: looks way over the horizon. But the alternative to a

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Speaker 4: two state solution is a one state solution, and that

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Speaker 4: means one side or the other has to be squeezed out,

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Speaker 4: and that is unimaginable.

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Speaker 3: So if you can't work.

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Speaker 4: Towards a two state solution, you are going to be

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Speaker 4: in this cycle of.

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Speaker 3: Mutual destruction for generations to come. Do you worry about

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Speaker 3: security in this region? I mean next door you have

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Speaker 3: in Malaysia you have and why.

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Speaker 2: Ibrahim you know he has come up quite vocally in

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Speaker 2: support of the Palestinians.

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Speaker 3: There is I think some people worry.

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Speaker 2: I see you've taken some precautions about more terrorism in

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Speaker 2: this region because of the Israel hammers.

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Speaker 4: I think diplomatic positions is one thing, and some countries

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Speaker 4: support Palestine, some country support Israel. Singapore has diplomatic relations

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Speaker 4: with Israel and we also have friendly relations with a

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Speaker 4: Palestinian authority. So diplomatic support is not the difficulty. But

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Speaker 4: terrorism is a danger. And you've seen lone wolf isolated

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Speaker 4: attacks in Europe, in France and I think in Belgium.

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Speaker 4: Somewhere there was an attack innocent Palestinian boy got killed

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Speaker 4: in America.

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Speaker 3: It can happen in this part of the world.

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Speaker 4: We've had self radicalized individuals in Singapore. We've picked up

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Speaker 4: including teenagers who wanted to do terrible things and had

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Speaker 4: gone and bought bulletproof vests and knives and practice. And

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Speaker 4: some of them wanted to who fight in the Middle

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Speaker 4: East on behalf of Iis. Some of them wanted to

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Speaker 4: emulate the christ Church terrorists.

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Speaker 3: And attack Muslims in Singapore in two mosques.

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Speaker 4: So and there are still terrorist groups within the agent

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Speaker 4: who have not disappeared. The Jamai Islamia who affiliated with

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Speaker 4: al Kada and who whom we picked up in Singapore

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Speaker 4: before they were about to do seven truck bomb attacks

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Speaker 4: in Singapore, still exists, and they are and they are watching,

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Speaker 4: and some of their followers will show surely be riled

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Speaker 4: up and they may plan something.

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Speaker 3: So we have to take it very seriously.

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Speaker 2: Call your favor of a ceasefire in Gaza, when do

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Speaker 2: you think we will get one in Ukraine?

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Speaker 3: And do you worry at the moment of Russia is winning.

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Speaker 4: I think Ukraine is going to be a long fight

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Speaker 4: and it's going to be a very difficult fight because

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Speaker 4: Russia is not going to declare that they have lost.

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Speaker 4: And it's also for Ukraine, with its resources and even

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Speaker 4: all the support from Europe and from the US, to

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Speaker 4: be able to keep on fighting and keep it up.

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Speaker 4: You can replenish your guns in your shells and your

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Speaker 4: aeroplanes and tanks, but the human deaths, the casualties, and.

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Speaker 3: It can go on, but it cannot go on forever.

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Speaker 4: So I think Russia has already failed in its objective

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Speaker 4: of overcoming Ukraine, and that's a great plus for the

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Speaker 4: world because if they had actually been able to launch

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Speaker 4: an sudden, overwhelming and successful take over and then there's

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Speaker 4: a new border, then I think the world would have

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Speaker 4: been much the more dangerous place. The fact that they

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Speaker 4: have failed, that they are paying a terrible cost, that's

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Speaker 4: a plus. But where will it end? And for how

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Speaker 4: long can Ukraine supporters keep it up? And how will

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Speaker 4: the moods change in America with this administration? I think

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Speaker 4: you know where President Biden stands. But elections are due

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Speaker 4: next year.

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Speaker 3: We will come back to that. But just one quick

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Speaker 3: question on Ukraine.

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Speaker 2: Do you think that is what you described as this

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Speaker 2: horrific experience for Russia? Do you think that has changed

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Speaker 2: the thinking in China about potentially getting into Taiwan?

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Speaker 4: See I don't think that Chinese would ever have thought

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Speaker 4: lightly about going into Taiwan. They must surely know, and

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Speaker 4: they have soldiers and sailors and airmen who will advise them.

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Speaker 4: Then now an amphibious attack attacking Taiwan is not like

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Speaker 4: doing Iojima, and Iojima was bloody enough. So I'm sure

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Speaker 4: they must make their carculars, But I don't believe that

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Speaker 4: they actually they're happy. They have a problem. They would

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Speaker 4: like Taiwan to be part of one China, but how

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Speaker 4: to get from here to there? And I believe if

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Speaker 4: they are not provoked, if events don't spin out of control,

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Speaker 4: I don't believe that they are going to You're going

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Speaker 4: to wake up one day and find that they have

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Speaker 4: decided to launch d D.

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Speaker 3: You more worried at the moment I was struck coming

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Speaker 3: to this region.

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Speaker 2: Is that, Yes, they're still talk about Taiwan, but there's

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Speaker 2: also talk about the Philippines a bit. In the South

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Speaker 2: China Sea. You have President Marcos been quite aggressive with China.

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Speaker 2: They are a treaty ally of the United States, and

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Speaker 2: surely that is.

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Speaker 4: That that would be very That's another possible flashpoint because

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Speaker 4: all four for US young countries have claims in the

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Speaker 4: South China Sea which overlapped with Chinese claims. Philippines, Brunei, Malaysia, Vietnam.

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Speaker 4: All of them want to work some arrangement out with

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Speaker 4: between themselves in the first place, and with China mostas

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Speaker 4: because China is really the biggest claimant and most muscular.

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Speaker 4: But at the same time, all of them have got

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Speaker 4: other steaks with China. They are trading with China. China

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Speaker 4: is their biggest trading partner, I think for all of them.

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Speaker 3: And.

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Speaker 4: Therefore this is not the South China Sea is important,

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Speaker 4: but it is not the only thing at snake and

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Speaker 4: I do not believe that any of them really truly

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Speaker 4: want to push it over the brink.

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Speaker 2: But nobody ever does on the whole pitch, and nobody

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Speaker 2: ever does on the whole.

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Speaker 4: But I would say that in this, in the case

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Speaker 4: of the Southeast Asian countries, their awareness of what the

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Speaker 4: what the soviets you.

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Speaker 3: Should be called the correlation of forces, In.

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Speaker 4: Other words, who's on your side and who was on

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Speaker 4: by side, and whose battalions are bigger. I think there's

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Speaker 4: a very healthy sense of realism, and therefore some restraints

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Speaker 4: will be there. And even the Filipinos, I mean, the

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Speaker 4: Americans are their treaty ally, but are you sure you

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Speaker 4: want to get into a fight where you will be.

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Speaker 3: The battleground within China?

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Speaker 2: The China you're talking about seems to be one that

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Speaker 2: is getting more realistic, that the geating thing is thinking harder,

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Speaker 2: that he's prepared to play a kind of more long

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Speaker 2: term role.

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Speaker 3: Is that the way you look at it, I think

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Speaker 3: China wants to grow.

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Speaker 4: China is determined to develop, and they believe, I think

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Speaker 4: rightly that they will get there one way or the other.

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Speaker 3: Sooner or later.

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Speaker 4: You can hold them back a few years, you can

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Speaker 4: deny them technology. They will develop their own. It may

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Speaker 4: not be as good. Will have something, and they are

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Speaker 4: determined to show their people and show the world that

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Speaker 4: it can be done. Challenges how do they do this

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Speaker 4: and feel pride in themselves at the same time inspiring

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Speaker 4: confidence and a certain tranquility amongst the rest of the world.

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Speaker 3: And that's very.

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Speaker 4: Hard because you may think you're doing nothing, very unreasonable,

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Speaker 4: and these are your rights. And countries big and smaller

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Speaker 4: entitled to do the same things.

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Speaker 3: But when a small country does.

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Speaker 4: A certain thing, the others can say, well, that's all right,

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Speaker 4: I mean no harm done.

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Speaker 3: But when the big country makes the same kind of action.

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Speaker 4: You can cause reverberations everywhere without quite realizing it. And

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Speaker 4: I think that it will take a while to get

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Speaker 4: the right field for the Chinese to be able to

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Speaker 4: grow taller and stronger and yet keep everybody on side

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Speaker 4: and on good terms.

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Speaker 3: I think they are trying.

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Speaker 4: You will see the Australia and Prime Minister ur been

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Speaker 4: easy with whom they've had some difficult moments recent in

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Speaker 4: recent years has been in China and they are both

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Speaker 4: sides want to move forward and want to have a relationship.

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Speaker 4: They know that Australia is a US ally they're buying

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Speaker 4: American nuclear subs, but they still lead their relationship.

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Speaker 2: But this new mature, the interesting thing is this new

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Speaker 2: mature China, which perhaps is slightly more different to how

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Speaker 2: you and I began.

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Speaker 3: No, I'm not sure.

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Speaker 4: That is for us to judge whether they are mature

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Speaker 4: or not. They are in a different phase.

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Speaker 3: I'm a journalist. I'm allowed to well, you're allowed to

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Speaker 3: use words, but I have to use my own.

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Speaker 2: This new mature, this new mature China, or whatever you

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Speaker 2: want to call it, is now about Joe Biden is

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Speaker 2: about to go and meet Jijipeing in San Francisco, and.

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Speaker 3: That is the core of this relationship.

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Speaker 4: No, that is a necessary step in this difficult moment

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Speaker 4: in the relationship.

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Speaker 3: They met last year in Bali. It was a good meeting.

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Speaker 4: They agreed on some principles that they would respect each other,

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Speaker 4: they would cooperate, they would be win win. But after that,

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Speaker 4: in twelve months, in fact less than that, events happened

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Speaker 4: and things went off track, and they're trying to put

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Speaker 4: it back on track again and I think there's a

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Speaker 4: lot of toing and throwing to tee it up so

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Speaker 4: that the meeting can take place and be productive. But

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Speaker 4: I think that this is a very deep contradiction between

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Speaker 4: the two countries, and you need a meeting to head

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Speaker 4: in the right direction.

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Speaker 3: But you do not expect a.

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Speaker 4: Meeting to make everything sweetness and light again.

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Speaker 3: It's not possible.

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Speaker 2: Surely, then you're going to end up with the same

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Speaker 2: as last time. We may get a deal on fence

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Speaker 2: andol say or something like that, but you'll be back.

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Speaker 2: Your Foreign minister put it very well in our conference today.

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Speaker 2: The weather may get better, but the climate, if you

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Speaker 2: think of all the conversations you and I have had,

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Speaker 2: the climate has continued to get worse and worse.

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Speaker 4: I think the climate is very difficult on both sides.

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Speaker 4: Very entrench views have taken root. In America. There's the

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Speaker 4: only thing that the two parties agree on is that

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Speaker 4: China is a grief threat. And in China there's also

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Speaker 4: a very strong consensus that America is out to block

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Speaker 4: them and is not. It is difficult to coinsist with

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Speaker 4: America and that you shouldn't try. You should you should

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Speaker 4: be prepare to protect yourself against America. So when you

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Speaker 4: have this such views on both sides, even to want

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Speaker 4: to think about stretching out and talking about them more

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Speaker 4: constructive future is difficult, rather.

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Speaker 2: Imponderable than that is the American election. I noticed that

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Speaker 2: you just announce, as Mike said, you announced that next

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Speaker 2: year you would you would give over to Lawrence Wong

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Speaker 2: just before the parties sent it out.

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Speaker 3: Just me by the time.

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Speaker 2: But that is as you know, as you know that

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Speaker 2: is that is that is in November, which is also

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Speaker 2: curiously the date of the American election. And if we

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Speaker 2: look at the polls now, a medical Donald Trump is ahead.

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Speaker 3: Yes, did you did you look and think of God?

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Speaker 3: Not him again?

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Speaker 2: I'll hand him over to That was not by principles,

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Speaker 2: but is it an additional incentive to.

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Speaker 3: The world is a difficult place.

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Speaker 4: I mean, whether I hand or were next year or

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Speaker 4: in five years time, there would be things outstanding and

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Speaker 4: there will be clouds on the horizon. And this just

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Speaker 4: happens to be the most the one which is closest

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Speaker 4: to you and most probably.

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Speaker 2: But a Trump election would but in this way it

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Speaker 2: would put I think more pressure on China to be

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Speaker 2: the kind of grown up in the room, which I know.

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Speaker 3: You've no I think well, Trump took actions.

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Speaker 4: Which Biden didn't reverse, for example, the impost tariffs on

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Speaker 4: Chinese products.

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Speaker 3: And.

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Speaker 4: Generally made the relationship much less predictable. Biden's approach is

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Speaker 4: much more predictable, but on China he has not reversed

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Speaker 4: what Trump did, and I think his attitudes are also

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Speaker 4: quite firm a feeling that you don't want to clash,

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Speaker 4: but neither is he going to give way on things

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Speaker 4: which he feels very strongly about. And it will go

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Speaker 4: back to mister Trump in his previous as he was

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Speaker 4: the previous time. I suppose that gives you some idea

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Speaker 4: of his approach to foreign policy. But it's a long game,

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Speaker 4: and four years is a long time in politics, but

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Speaker 4: not a long time in the history of the relations

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Speaker 4: between two great powers. So even if in America you

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Speaker 4: are preoccupied with things other than the most important bilateral

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Speaker 4: relationship in the world, on the other side and in

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Speaker 4: the rest of the world, this should still be a

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Speaker 4: major preoccupation, and hopefully there will be the perspective and

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Speaker 4: the equanimity and the reach to say, my partner as

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Speaker 4: in a difficult moment, let's see how I can manage

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Speaker 4: this without giving anything away, but neither doing anything worse.

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Speaker 2: That sounds a bit like being the grown up in

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Speaker 2: the room. But is there now a third figure, which

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Speaker 2: is India.

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Speaker 3: I think India is growing rapidly.

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Speaker 4: Last year they were one of the fastest growing countries

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Speaker 4: in the world, and mister Moody, with his economic reforms

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Speaker 4: and his drive towards digitalization, is making progress getting India

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Speaker 4: to move up another level. But it's a distance because

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Speaker 4: the Indian economy is one fifth the Chinese, the international

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Speaker 4: trade is about one fifth of the Chinese. Their population

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Speaker 4: is younger and still growing, unlike the Chinese one, which

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Speaker 4: is older and already stable and beginning to come down.

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Speaker 4: But they have to make the most of it, and

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Speaker 4: they have to extend that reach beyond the subcontinent to

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Speaker 4: influence East Asia, Southeast Asia and the wider world. And

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Speaker 4: I think you can see that they are starting to

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Speaker 4: do that with the QUAD. But I don't think that

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Speaker 4: they have put quite as much resources into the Why

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Speaker 4: they're gain beyond the subcontinent.

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Speaker 2: WHI they're behind China in that respect, They're not looking

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Speaker 2: at a kind of global system through it.

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Speaker 4: I think also their system is not as amenable to

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Speaker 4: the Chinese system. They decide to do an road for example, Yes,

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Speaker 4: I don't think they'd be able to say, okay, I

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Speaker 4: want to invest in infrastructure and then suddenly find ports, roads, airports,

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Speaker 4: streams sprouting up all over the region.

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Speaker 3: Which is for the good and maybe for the bad.

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Speaker 3: Can you tell me?

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Speaker 2: I mean, we've talked about Singapore through your your time here,

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Speaker 2: it's been You've been in the middle of the America,

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Speaker 2: China one the other one.

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Speaker 3: You are the great symbol of globalization, just you.

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Speaker 2: And yet you see during all these conversations we've had,

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Speaker 2: every year the world has felt more regional and less global.

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Speaker 3: I mentioned Trump.

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Speaker 2: Trump has now said that if he comes in, he's

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Speaker 2: going to put ten percent tariffs on everything. Is surely

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Speaker 2: that will be the end of the global age. If not,

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Speaker 2: if it hasn't, well, it's.

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Speaker 3: Trending not in a favorable direction.

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Speaker 4: And even without Trump, the Industrial Relations Acts, you're making

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Speaker 4: industrial policy. You're deciding to do chips, you're deciding to

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Speaker 4: do green technology. But basically you're deciding that we need

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Speaker 4: to make rules for ourselves and not depend on rules

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Speaker 4: which are negotiated multilaterally. And if we are talking about

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Speaker 4: a rules based order, it becomes difficult to understand exactly

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Speaker 4: how the rules are being made, and if everybody takes

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Speaker 4: that approach, then in effect there will not be any

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Speaker 4: rules and we will all be in difficulty. I think

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Speaker 4: the Europeans have made that point quite forcefully.

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Speaker 2: Can I ask you about something which is one of

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Speaker 2: those areas where people do want rules AI and I

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Speaker 2: looked it up. You were the first what do you

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Speaker 2: call a senior wrangler. You were the first person to

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Speaker 2: get top maths marks at Cambridge University, which Mike didn't mention.

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Speaker 2: I didn't sad get that at Oxford, but you were

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Speaker 2: the first person to get that from Singapore, So you

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Speaker 2: understand maths, and I suppose the basic question to you

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Speaker 2: is do you think AI is a bigger change than

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Speaker 2: the Internet?

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Speaker 4: Well, the first thing you must know is that there

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Speaker 4: are a lot of things you don't know, and on AI,

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Speaker 4: most of us don't know where it is going. I

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Speaker 4: don't think even the researchers know where it's going. And

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Speaker 4: I don't pretend to understand how the technology works. I

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Speaker 4: have a vague principle idea of the principles, but I

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Speaker 4: don't understand how they've made all these magical consequences happen,

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Speaker 4: and I do not know how far the present approach

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Speaker 4: can go. It took fifty seventy years from the time

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Speaker 4: the idea of AI came about and people started inventing

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Speaker 4: computer languages like Lisp to be used for AI programming

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Speaker 4: to chat GPT nineteen fifty is until now.

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Speaker 3: It's an enormous, long, long duration.

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Speaker 4: And all along that deray or that path, the thought

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Speaker 4: was we're about to make a breakthrough, which eventually did come.

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Speaker 4: Now you're thinking, now you think you're on the run,

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Speaker 4: but will it go all the way to the point

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Speaker 4: when you can have a conversation and either the chat

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Speaker 4: bob can interview me, or I may interview.

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Speaker 3: The chat bob, or I could interview the chat bok,

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Speaker 3: or two chatbots maybe talking to each other better than us.

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Speaker 3: We don't know.

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Speaker 4: It could go there just by putting in ten times

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Speaker 4: more chips and ten times more computing. It could be

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Speaker 4: you reach a limit and then you need another breakthrough

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Speaker 4: conceptually to take it to the next level where it's

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Speaker 4: got insight, understanding, judgment, reasoning, and empathy. But I think

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Speaker 4: in principle there's no reason why you can't build a

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Speaker 4: machine which can think, act, speak, maybe possibly look like

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Speaker 4: it is feeling like a human being.

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Speaker 3: Some philosophers think it's not possible. I don't believe that.

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Speaker 3: I think it is possible, but I don't know how

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Speaker 3: long it will take.

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Speaker 4: I do know that if it does, when it does happen,

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Speaker 4: we will have very profound questions to answer, and it

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Speaker 4: will be very difficult to answer because if it is

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Speaker 4: as smart as you, you will not be able to

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Speaker 4: pre program it to be stupid enough to be killed.

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Speaker 3: That's the fundamental contradiction. I mean, you think that you

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Speaker 3: can make.

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Speaker 4: A special push button somewhere, press it and it will

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Speaker 4: suddenly say yes then obey you. But it is really

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Speaker 4: that smart you will have not thought of all of

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Speaker 4: the consequences.

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Speaker 2: But in that sort of technological balance of power, do

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Speaker 2: you sense that America is a long way ahead of Joina.

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Speaker 4: Or do you think it's I think right now they

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Speaker 4: are ahead, both because of the tech they make the chips,

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Speaker 4: also because they attract so much of human talent and

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Speaker 4: I mean even Asian, Chinese, Indian researchers.

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Speaker 3: They are in America making breakthroughs.

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Speaker 4: And also because of their free enterprise system, I mean

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Speaker 4: Silicon Valley. You may have your views about the tech companies,

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Speaker 4: but they are able to take an idea and use

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Speaker 4: it to transform the world for better or for worse.

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Speaker 4: And now here we have something which is happening already

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Speaker 4: making an impact on the world. Not to become a

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Speaker 4: super cybal but just to be your AI assistant, to

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Speaker 4: help you draft.

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Speaker 3: A paragraph or to write a short note.

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Speaker 4: And we need to gain experience operating with it and

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Speaker 4: understanding what the pitfalls are so that we can make

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Speaker 4: smart decisions to regulate it.

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Speaker 3: As we go along.

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Speaker 4: Right now, I can safely say that in the government,

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Speaker 4: in my government, and I think in most governments, the

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Speaker 4: tech people know more about this and the government people.

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Speaker 3: It's inherent in the way the.

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Speaker 4: The breakthroughs are happening. We are not the ones making

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Speaker 4: their breakthroughs. The people who are doing that are in

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Speaker 4: the universities, are in the companies, and they know much

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Speaker 4: more about it than us. Some of them are worried,

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Speaker 4: and I think there's reason for us to pay attention.

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Speaker 2: I'll ask you quickly about Singapore and then about yourself them.

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Speaker 2: And on Singapore, it's been a slightly tougher year than

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Speaker 2: normal Singapore, you had this Monday laundering thing with some

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Speaker 2: Chinese business people.

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Speaker 3: You even had.

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Speaker 2: One or two officials in the government been not being

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Speaker 2: pulled into that, but being probed and so on, which

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Speaker 2: I know, compared with certain Southern European countries, would not

439
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Speaker 2: really worried.

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Speaker 4: No, we don't compare ourselves with certain Southern European countries,

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Speaker 4: not even with any Northern European country. We just want

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Speaker 4: to maintain high standards, and when the standards fall short,

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Speaker 4: we have to deal with it. And once in a

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Speaker 4: while you'll find that one of your own didn't quite

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Speaker 4: live up to what he should have done, or appears

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Speaker 4: to have done something not quite right, and well, we

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Speaker 4: have to do the right thing, and we'll have to

448
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 4: be seen that the right thing is done, which is

449
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 4: currently underway. I don't think the Chinese money laundering cases

450
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:12,920
Speaker 4: in any way scandal for us.

451
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 3: It's a criminal case. Criminals do bad things.

452
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,880
Speaker 4: We find out, we investigated, we do what we need

453
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,719
Speaker 4: to do, We see the money, the cars or handbags

454
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 4: and everything else, and then we charge them in court.

455
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,880
Speaker 4: Then they have to prove that, uh, these are things

456
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 4: which they legitimately and they didn't they didn't do anything wrong.

457
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 4: But as far as my system is concerned, the system

458
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:40,159
Speaker 4: is clean. The system did what it was supposed to

459
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,680
Speaker 4: do and it will keep itself clean.

460
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:46,200
Speaker 3: If my system had been corrupted, then you've be in trouble,

461
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:48,679
Speaker 3: then I'm in trouble. Then you'd be back in the

462
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 3: European levels. But I don't know what levels of Europeans

463
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:54,679
Speaker 3: are at. Can I ask? Can I ask you a bit?

464
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 3: As you pointed out and might point it out.

465
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,880
Speaker 2: You know you are next year sent up for all

466
00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 2: the PAP seventieth anniversary. You're going to hand over to

467
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:06,440
Speaker 2: Lawrence Wrong, so you will have done twenty years by then,

468
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:11,879
Speaker 2: And I wondered how much you think what's changed during that.

469
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:13,160
Speaker 3: I mean, if you look at your father.

470
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:16,400
Speaker 2: Your father came in famously as a socialist and ended

471
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 2: up as a Thatcherite. I've been wandering around Singapore at

472
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 2: the moment, and there are all these big programs to

473
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:26,120
Speaker 2: hand out more money to people in retirement, fight off inflation.

474
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:31,639
Speaker 3: Have you been drifting to the left. We have that

475
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:36,119
Speaker 3: in sailing carefully to a more comfortable place.

476
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:41,680
Speaker 4: No, when the economy is growing and all boats are

477
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:46,919
Speaker 4: lifted by the tide, we can afford to be, and

478
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:51,120
Speaker 4: we need to be very rigorous in how we help

479
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:53,960
Speaker 4: those who are not quite catching up. You can tell

480
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 4: them run faster, work harder, here's a bit more incentive.

481
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 4: Good ahead. And mostly it works very well, and we

482
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:07,359
Speaker 4: did that for a very long time. But over time,

483
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 4: as the race goes on, as the field spreads out

484
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 4: and some are further forward and some are not quite

485
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 4: so far ahead, and then their kids are not so

486
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,400
Speaker 4: far ahead, you have to think, how are you going

487
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:24,480
Speaker 4: to hold this team together? And when sometimes somebody who's

488
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:28,120
Speaker 4: doing perfectly well, the world changes on him and suddenly

489
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:30,160
Speaker 4: the last, the first shall be last.

490
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 3: Well what do you do. Do you say that's just

491
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 3: the world, the way the world is, or is.

492
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 4: There something something I can do to help him get

493
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 4: back into the race again and be contribute, contribute, contributing again.

494
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 4: And I think that we are in a phase where

495
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 4: we have to do more together, where we have to

496
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 4: help each other, and the government has to be there,

497
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 4: and we have to try very hard to avoid the

498
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 4: government being the sole solution to all problems.

499
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 2: So the government is not going to get massively bigger,

500
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 2: but it'll get a bit bigger.

501
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 4: We are probably the smallest government in the developed countries

502
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 4: because we spend about less than twenty percent of the

503
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 4: GDP that's the government budget. My government budget is about

504
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 4: the same percentage of the GDP as some European countries spend.

505
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 3: On state pensions.

506
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 4: I mean, your system is different. But we've kept hours

507
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 4: very lean, and we need to keep it very lean.

508
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 4: But the pressures of aging, of higher healthcare costs, of

509
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 4: higher social needs are pushing us up gradually. And our

510
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 4: challenge is how do we fund that and how do

511
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 4: we allow that to happen where necessary without just no

512
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 4: blowing up out of control. And that means from time

513
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 4: to time uttering the forbidden word taxes, and we are

514
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 4: in the middle of doing that now. We have our

515
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 4: goods and services tax like a VAT, where it was

516
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 4: seven percent. We pushed it up to eight in the

517
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 4: on the first of January this year, and it's about

518
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 4: to go up to nine on the first of January

519
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 4: next year, and we will make it happen. But what

520
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 4: we are doing is to provide quite generous, practically cash

521
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 4: subsidies to the lower two thirds of the population so

522
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 4: that I can get the system through. I'm in a

523
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 4: new place in terms of my revenues, but as far

524
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 4: as impact on the households, that's deferred for quite some time.

525
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 2: What would how would how would you like to be remembered?

526
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 2: What do you what is the bit that what is

527
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 2: a bit out of that? Do you do you want

528
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:42,480
Speaker 2: to be seen the person who kept.

529
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 3: Seeing No, I think I just focused on doing my job.

530
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 4: I'm not into what do they ulities?

531
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 3: No, I that you. I'm not into the point where

532
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 3: I sit down and talk about what I used to do. Well.

533
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 3: That brings me to my question.

534
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 2: You were and there is talk if you talk of

535
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 2: you becoming senior minister. When I first met you many

536
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 2: years ago, you had just taken over as Prime Minister.

537
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 2: And then I went toge and see your father, who

538
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 2: supposedly had semi retired to be senior minister, and I discovered,

539
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 2: to my site surprise, he was living above your cabinet room,

540
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 2: which struck.

541
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,719
Speaker 3: Me as being here. He was working there. So he's

542
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 3: working there.

543
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 2: But that would if I was running a cabinet meeting

544
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 2: and he was up there, I mean, are you going

545
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 2: to planning that degree?

546
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 3: It didn't happen. I was running the cabinet meeting and

547
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 3: he was in the cabinet rooms and he's still come on.

548
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 3: It worked quite well.

549
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 4: My predecessor was in the cabinet room too, so I

550
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 4: had two of my predecessors in the meeting, and one

551
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 4: of my fellow prime ministers said to me, I can't

552
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 4: imagine what your cabinet meetings are like.

553
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:47,959
Speaker 3: Does this starting work? It worked.

554
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 4: It's a very delicate thing to be over watching but

555
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 4: not overbearing, and to be able to give advice and

556
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 4: a helpful nudge and just that's the right wise word,

557
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 4: and not cram the style of your successor. I am

558
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 4: at the disposal of my successor. I've already said whatever

559
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 4: he wants me to do, I will do to help

560
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 4: him succeed.

561
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 3: So you have to ask him what he will be

562
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 3: doing with me. Well, premisely, I hope we see you

563
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 3: next year as well. No, I shall be in the

564
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 3: audience listening to that.

565
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 1: Singapore's Prime Minister Lisian Lung speaking with Bloomberg News Editor

566
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 1: in chief John Micklethwaite from the sixth annual Bloomberg New

567
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 1: Economy Forum in Singapore. For more conversations like this one,

568
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 1: subscribe to the Bloomberg Talks podcast. I'm Doug Prisner. And

569
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 1: this is Bloomberg