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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Cool People That Did Cool Stuff,

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Speaker 1: the only history podcast. I'm your host, Margaret Kiljoy, and

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Speaker 1: with me today is a guest I'm super excited about.

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Speaker 1: It's Julie Holland. If you haven't heard Julie Holland's music,

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Speaker 1: you're living your life from How Are You Today? Julie.

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Speaker 1: I am super super extra psyched because I love this podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm so happy here. Yeay yeah. I had a moment

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Speaker 1: where I was like kind of fan girl and when

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Speaker 1: I realized that Julie Holland followed me on social media. Um.

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Speaker 1: So our producer is the one and only Sophie Lijaman.

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Speaker 1: Hi Sophie, how are you? Hi? Magpie? I'm well, how

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Speaker 1: are you? You know? Life continues a pace. Our audio

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Speaker 1: engineers Ian. Our theme music was written for us by

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Speaker 1: a woman. So so today we're going to talk about

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Speaker 1: one of the most legendary gender benders in history. A

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Speaker 1: prolific writer who loved drinking and fucking, who's got to

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Speaker 1: complicated as fun childhood and a company gad his fun adulthood.

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Speaker 1: And I figured, if she's good enough to get name

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Speaker 1: dropped in a Jolie Holland song, she's good enough for me? Uh?

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Speaker 1: Whoa are you talking about the Isabel ever heard? The

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Speaker 1: nihilist writer? Yep, Isabel ever heard? Or Yeah, actually I'm

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Speaker 1: curious so how much. I don't want to put you

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Speaker 1: on the spot, but is this like are you already

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Speaker 1: like have you written biographies about her already? Or just

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Speaker 1: kind of like so clearly anyone who's listening. Um. One

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Speaker 1: of Jolie's songs, Old Fashioned Morphine has a line that says,

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Speaker 1: if it's good enough for Isabel ever heard, it's good

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Speaker 1: enough for me? Um, And I'm gonna curious your background

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Speaker 1: with Isabel ever heard? I think that I found a

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Speaker 1: book around the house and I lived with in a

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Speaker 1: big house in San Francisco where there were a bunch

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Speaker 1: of artists back before or the culture of San Francisco

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Speaker 1: was completely destroyed by tech bros. Yah. Yeah, that seems

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Speaker 1: like a good way to I don't know whether the

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Speaker 1: first time I ran across as a Harberhart was either

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Speaker 1: through you in that song, or whether it was through

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Speaker 1: Eberhart Press, which is a an anarchist publisher based in

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Speaker 1: the Pacific Northwest that uses her as a namesake. Um,

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Speaker 1: but that's what we're gonna talk about today and or

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Speaker 1: as she was known to many of her friends and

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Speaker 1: lovers see Mahmasati, because she was Muslim and dressed as

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Speaker 1: a man and had a man's identity as often as

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Speaker 1: a woman's identity. And we're going to talk about a

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Speaker 1: lot of how complicated and hard to map our current

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Speaker 1: understandings of gender onto her life is. She's practically a

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Speaker 1: saint to the middle class European traveler vagabond who does

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Speaker 1: so safely but in search of authenticity, that sort of

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Speaker 1: like going out to go backpacking, you know, instead of

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Speaker 1: going to college immediately, sort of person um. But that

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Speaker 1: wasn't that wasn't Isabelle's thing at all. She did not

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Speaker 1: embrace safety. She threw herself uncompromisingly into life, desperate for

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Speaker 1: meaning and adventure. And she didn't come up on short

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Speaker 1: on any of those things, while she came up short

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Speaker 1: on life actually in the end. But we'll get to that.

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Speaker 1: And she's got more than one side to her at

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Speaker 1: any given moment. She's got more than one name, she's

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Speaker 1: got more than one motive, more than one set of

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Speaker 1: loyalties and goals, and she's really hard to pin down.

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Speaker 1: Lots Before I've tried, and we're going to give it

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Speaker 1: a shot at pinning down Isabel everr heart excited. I'm

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Speaker 1: so excited this is Yeah. I've read a bit about

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Speaker 1: her and she I think she was the first person

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Speaker 1: who was raised nihilist that I learned about, and I

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Speaker 1: don't know like how much she continued to embrace that identity. Well,

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Speaker 1: that's what we're gonna A lot of what we're gonna

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Speaker 1: talk about is that is that her parents were anarchist nihilists, um,

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Speaker 1: and there's like interesting ways that that crops up throughout

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Speaker 1: her life, even though that isn't her identity. By the

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Speaker 1: end um spoilers, she's has quotes about how she's much

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Speaker 1: more Muslim than she ever was anarchist, or that she's

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Speaker 1: better at it, I think is the way. Whatever, there's

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Speaker 1: a direct quote that somewhere in the script that you

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Speaker 1: will hear, like a lot of the best history is

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Speaker 1: about Eberhart's family background. Sounds like some ship that's somebody

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Speaker 1: made up, and honestly like she did really amazing ship

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Speaker 1: and so did her parents. You've got her mom who

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Speaker 1: was born Natalie Eberhart, and she's aristocratic as fuck in Russia.

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Speaker 1: The ebber hearts had been hanging out in the circles

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Speaker 1: of the czars forever, and there's some stuff that I've seen.

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Speaker 1: She might have been an illegitimate child with a Jewish dad,

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Speaker 1: but if so, that's kept under wraps because she's in

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Speaker 1: the aristocracy and through rubbing noses with the rich os,

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Speaker 1: young Natalie meets her husband, who is forty three years

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Speaker 1: older than her. His name is Senator General Pavel Karlovitch

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Speaker 1: de Murder Mortar, by the way, means murderer in Germany.

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Speaker 1: That again, Margaret Murder. No, the entire name Senator General

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Speaker 1: Pavel Karlovitch de murder based. Yeah, well he sucks, but

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Speaker 1: it's a base name exactly, and it's like and nowhere

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Speaker 1: in any of the sources does anyone like point out

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Speaker 1: that his name means murderer, Like, you know, it's like

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Speaker 1: the Cooper's they make barrels and the smiths make like

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Speaker 1: stuff with out of iron and the murders. Anyway, So

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Speaker 1: this guy is a senior advisor to the czar, as

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Speaker 1: both a senator and a general, which is really rare.

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Speaker 1: He's like very high up, thus the title Senator General.

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Speaker 1: His brother tutored the czar. He's a widower, and he

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Speaker 1: marries the young Natalie and soon he's having a bunch

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Speaker 1: of kids with her. She is not happy, she's not

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Speaker 1: excited about what life has to offer her young Natalie.

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Speaker 1: So she does what rich people do when they're unhappy.

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Speaker 1: She retreats, retires to her country estate and spends her

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Speaker 1: days riding horses and sighing and letting the servants take

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Speaker 1: care of the kids. She also maybe does the unhappy

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Speaker 1: rich person thing that I wish more unhappy rich people did,

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Speaker 1: which was become an anarchist, militant class trader. And so

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Speaker 1: this tutor shows up, and his name is Alexander Nikolovitch Trufamosky,

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Speaker 1: and he's full of fire, and he's young, I mean

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Speaker 1: not actually, he's like more than a decade older than Natalie,

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Speaker 1: but that still leaves him thirty one years younger than

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Speaker 1: her husband, the Senator General. So you know, like the bars,

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Speaker 1: well the bar is not low, the bar is very high. Whatever.

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Speaker 1: He's really smart. He speaks Russian, French, German, Italian, Arabic,

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Speaker 1: and Hebrew, and he was Armenian, probably from a Turkish

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Speaker 1: and Muslim family background, though he was an Orthodox priest

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Speaker 1: immediately before he became an anarchist and a nihilist. And

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Speaker 1: and this part, I'm going to be kind of curious

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Speaker 1: your take on this, both of you all. So he's

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Speaker 1: a feminist in his way, like probably he's not faking

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Speaker 1: this to get into her pants. And he hates the

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Speaker 1: institution of marriage. For example, he left his wife and

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Speaker 1: kids because marriage is bad. And I don't know why, Right,

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Speaker 1: it could have been this like whoa babe, Marriage is

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Speaker 1: bad for women like gott to go have fun taking

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Speaker 1: care of the kids. But I actually feel more likely,

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Speaker 1: based on everything else that I've learned about him, I

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Speaker 1: think he had a major ideological break with his younger

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Speaker 1: life and it no longer suited him or his wife

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Speaker 1: to stay together, and she might have caught him out

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Speaker 1: of the kid's life and her life. So because he

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Speaker 1: went from Orthodox priest to anarchist, Orthodox priests were allowed

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Speaker 1: to be married as long as they were married before

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Speaker 1: their ordination. So for whatever reason, he has left his

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Speaker 1: wife and kids, and now he shows up as a

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Speaker 1: tutor in the house of this fabulously rich noble. And

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Speaker 1: for more background for anyone who's curious, we have an

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Speaker 1: episode about the Russian nihilists and all the conspiracies that

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Speaker 1: the anarchists were up to at the time and the

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Speaker 1: nihilists were up to at the time, which is like

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Speaker 1: a ven diagram, right, not all the anarchists or nihilists.

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Speaker 1: Not all the nihilists or anarchists. This man is both.

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Speaker 1: He has both of these identities. As far as I

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Speaker 1: can tell, Alexander is part of all of it. It's

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Speaker 1: possible that he found his way into tutoring the kids

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Speaker 1: of the Senator General as a plot, part of a

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Speaker 1: plot to kill the Senator General. And this makes me

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Speaker 1: very happy. And so he did funk up the Senator

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Speaker 1: General's life. Whether or not he killed the Senator General,

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Speaker 1: no one actually knows. There's people who claim he did,

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Speaker 1: and there's people who claim he didn't. He might have

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Speaker 1: just been really really good at his job. I know,

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Speaker 1: I know, And like that's what that's what you want,

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Speaker 1: you want, you want like nobody to know? Yeah, yeah, Well,

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Speaker 1: And and the fact that she gets raised into all

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Speaker 1: of this secrecy and plotting is not only a huge

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Speaker 1: part of her life, but it's a huge part of

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Speaker 1: trying to untangle her life a hundred years later, because

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Speaker 1: she was up to some ship, probably in the background

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Speaker 1: of everything we're going to talk about today, but no

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Speaker 1: one knows quite how much ship she was up to

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Speaker 1: at what given point. And I like conjectures, because of

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Speaker 1: course I do, but anyway the way, yeah, and and

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Speaker 1: like you're you're in a good position to imagine about

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Speaker 1: that more than other people. I have personally never been

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Speaker 1: part of a plot to assassinate high up Russian nobility.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't insinuating that her, to be perfectly clear, I

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Speaker 1: wasn't insinuating allegedary Yeah. No. That is actually something that

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Speaker 1: I find very frustrating about reading a lot of the

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Speaker 1: histories is that it's clear that the histories are written

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Speaker 1: by people who are excited about her as an adventurer

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Speaker 1: and as like a feminist icon, and they're going to

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Speaker 1: be doing certain types of work to recuperate her into

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Speaker 1: certain types of ways of thinking. And also specifically, like

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Speaker 1: don't really understand I don't totally understand anarchist nhilist politics

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Speaker 1: of the nineteenth century, but I think I understand them

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Speaker 1: better than the average historian of Isabel ever Heart. And

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Speaker 1: there's two ways that this could have happened. Him showing

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Speaker 1: up at the household, and the way it's like normally written,

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Speaker 1: he shows up, him and Natalie get close, then biblically close,

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Speaker 1: and then she converts to anarchism or nihilism or you know,

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Speaker 1: very few people actually talk about her mom and her

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Speaker 1: political leanings and beliefs. Oh yeah, that that tracks yeah

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Speaker 1: like this lady. Yeah. And and a lot of historians

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Speaker 1: are trying to take agency away from her and are

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Speaker 1: just like, I guess she got swept up by this

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Speaker 1: charming priest turn nihilist or whatever her And it's like,

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Speaker 1: I think it is just as likely that she's married

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Speaker 1: to a monster who is ruling Russia and shouldn't be.

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Speaker 1: And so she's like, yo, check it out, come over here,

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Speaker 1: let's steal his kids and murder him and take all

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Speaker 1: his money and give all the money to the movement. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she intimately saw the fucking sausage being made. Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Uh So, whether or not she converted ahead of time

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Speaker 1: and invited him, or whether she converted later, she stays

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Speaker 1: the entire rest of her life. UM, not necessarily specifically

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Speaker 1: ideologically annihilist or an anarchist, but not specifically not that

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Speaker 1: either actually um, And she's very committed revolution whole time,

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Speaker 1: so they're like, we can't stay here. This is not

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Speaker 1: a good idea where we will eventually get caught because

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Speaker 1: he is this anarchist with this background, and it's kind

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Speaker 1: of amazing that he got himself in as a tutor. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: it helps that he's like smart as hell and speak

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Speaker 1: seven languages or whatever. So they funk off, and in

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Speaker 1: eighteen seventy one they go to Geneva in Switzerland, which

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Speaker 1: is the cool anarchy place to be in one because

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Speaker 1: all the the Paris Commune ours cr episode about Paris Commune,

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Speaker 1: thank you. They're all taking refuge there and all the

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Speaker 1: cool lefties are there, and Natalie's like, oh, darling senator General,

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Speaker 1: who I'm totally not plotting to kill. I'd love to

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Speaker 1: stay around and like watch you get old and die

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Speaker 1: while oppressing everyone in the country. But I need gentler

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Speaker 1: climbs for my soft womanly immune system, so I have

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Speaker 1: to go to Geneva and bring the kids and the

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Speaker 1: hot tutor. That's what she does. I'm paraphrasing heavily here,

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Speaker 1: but she did say it was for her health that

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Speaker 1: she needed warmer climbs. She actually her whole family is

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Speaker 1: kind of sickly the entire time, including her Isabelle and

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Speaker 1: Natalie and her father and anyway, we'll get to that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and how how many kids does she have at this point?

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Speaker 1: So she's starting off with three, right, She has a

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Speaker 1: young Nicholas Natalie Jr. I don't think they used junior,

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Speaker 1: but that's how I'm going to distinguish Natalie Jr. From

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Speaker 1: Natalie Sr. And Vladimir, So of course, yeah, yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: totally yeah. So they get on some trains and they

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Speaker 1: get the funk out of the country, which is good

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Speaker 1: because this is our secret police were like probably just

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Speaker 1: about to be like, wait a second, this tutor is

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Speaker 1: an anarchist. And then nine months later, after she leaves,

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Speaker 1: Natalie has another kid. His name is Augustus Augustine. The

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Speaker 1: General comes down to Geneva and is like trying to

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Speaker 1: beg her back. It's like, babe, please come home, and

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Speaker 1: she's like no, but do you wanna do you wanna

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Speaker 1: accept this kid as as your kid and not your bastard?

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Speaker 1: And the General is like yeah, sure, fine, whatever, And

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Speaker 1: I think the General knows the Senator General knows that

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Speaker 1: Augustine is not his, but he's like willing to give

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Speaker 1: him the murderer name. So his name is Augustine de murder. Wow.

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Speaker 1: And so two years later her aged husband eyed seventy

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Speaker 1: eight years old and she inherits all his money. And

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Speaker 1: it's possible that Alexander had him poisoned. It has been alleged,

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Speaker 1: and I see no particular reason to doubt it. But

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Speaker 1: also he's seventy eight years old, it's the nineteenth century.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. So they're now in Geneva. They have

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Speaker 1: plenty of money, and they've got all of the fucking

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Speaker 1: nobilities kids with them. True to we don't believe in

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Speaker 1: marriage form Alexander and Natalie. They stay lovers, but they

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Speaker 1: get separate apartments and different parts of town, and they

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Speaker 1: spend like all of their time together. But they don't

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Speaker 1: like shack up, and they spend their time doing cool,

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Speaker 1: weird secret anarchy ship. Anarchists at the time and place

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Speaker 1: where obsessed with being in secret societies. So we really

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Speaker 1: don't know what they did besides maybe kill Natalie's husband

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Speaker 1: and the father of her children. Then eighteen seventy seven,

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Speaker 1: six years after they've moved, they have another kid, Isabelle,

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Speaker 1: Natalie's in her late thirties. At this point, Alexander's in

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Speaker 1: his early fifties. And they don't claim Isabelle as like

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Speaker 1: Alexander Trofinowski never claims any of the kids as his.

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Speaker 1: It's like not a good idea for a lot of reasons.

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Speaker 1: But they also don't tell the kids their own parentage.

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Speaker 1: But he is like not a fucking fly by night father.

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Speaker 1: He is very actively involved in their entire life. They

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Speaker 1: move out of the city out onto two different estates.

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Speaker 1: Natalie's family money bought them both, so this is a

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Speaker 1: continuing to like room of one's own vibe. Yeah, this

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Speaker 1: is this such a weird childhood. You know, she was

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Speaker 1: not going to grow up normal. That is, although some

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Speaker 1: of her kids, some of the kids tried to end

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Speaker 1: up normal. It kind of goes badly for everyone, honestly, right,

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Speaker 1: That's there's the classic like if you're raised in a

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Speaker 1: really wild scene, you you know, try to be really conservative. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and that happens to about half the kids. It's kind

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Speaker 1: of interesting. So they get this a state. Alexander gets

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Speaker 1: really into gardening, and he just wants to spend the

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Speaker 1: rest of his life setting up an anarchy commune. But

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Speaker 1: no one is like into setting up an anarchy commune

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Speaker 1: with him, so he just doesn't help by himself and

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Speaker 1: like makes his kids help, and he's really into orchids

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Speaker 1: and cactuses us. My dad, Yeah, it's actually literally everybody's dad. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's just yeah, he's like, why want Why doesn't everyone

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Speaker 1: want to hang out and like work on cactuses with

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Speaker 1: me all the time? An exact text message I've received

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Speaker 1: from my dad. So he and he dotes on his kids,

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Speaker 1: especially as young daughter Isabel, who didn't know that she

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Speaker 1: was his daughter. I think I think that everyone suspected

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Speaker 1: and it was like I was gonna say, like allegedly

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Speaker 1: didn't know, but like, if somebody's taking that much of

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Speaker 1: an interest in you, you have to be somewhat aware,

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Speaker 1: and people have will make these alley Asians like directly,

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Speaker 1: but it will be part of politicking to get the

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Speaker 1: money back, because it turns out you actually can't rob

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Speaker 1: one of the richest and most powerful people in Russia

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Speaker 1: and steal three to four of his children and not

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Speaker 1: have it not have like continuing effects. But he tried. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so so so Alexander tried in his way to raise

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Speaker 1: his daughter's genderless as part of a feminist current in

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Speaker 1: anarchism at the time. Specifically, it wasn't about like keeping

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Speaker 1: women safe, girls safe by dressing up as as boys,

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Speaker 1: but instead about offering them the same opportunities that are

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Speaker 1: available to boys in terms of education, in terms of

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Speaker 1: like everything else. Is Basically it's a like this is

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Speaker 1: the this is the like feminist thing we're all trying

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Speaker 1: right now. So it meant cropping Isabelle's hair short and

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Speaker 1: her dressing as a boy. And I want to really

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Speaker 1: like this guy. He's complicated and will never exactly know

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Speaker 1: in what ways he had the kids stayed in his

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Speaker 1: walled villa wear their hair short, except the older daughter,

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Speaker 1: Natalie jr. Um. She refused to wear her hair short,

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Speaker 1: and he's like, that's fine. But it's funny because in

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Speaker 1: the biography would be like this tyrants who made her

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Speaker 1: cut her hair that she like was like, no, I'm

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Speaker 1: not going out, and he's like okay, um, so whatever,

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Speaker 1: but we'll get to the complicated there in a second.

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Speaker 1: And made them help in the gardens, the oldest to

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Speaker 1: their closest to their dad and the Russian aristocratic life right,

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Speaker 1: and they hated all of this, and they referred to

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Speaker 1: it as slavery to be raised by this guy and

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Speaker 1: be forced to work on cactuses and learn like six languages. Wow. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean it's on on one hand, it's kind of

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Speaker 1: like growing up in a cult, So they might they

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Speaker 1: might feel that way about it because it it definitely

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Speaker 1: like isolates you from your peers. Yeah, And it's interesting

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Speaker 1: because it's like, I don't quite know if they're being

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Speaker 1: isolated from their peers. They might be. They're definitely being

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Speaker 1: isolated from their original upbringing and what it two of

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Speaker 1: them perceive as their heritage, which is to stomp the

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Speaker 1: Russian peasants into the dust. Well, it definitely isolates you

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Speaker 1: from mainstream culture totally, totally. But you know what else

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Speaker 1: will isolate you from mainstream culture is not buying. If

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Speaker 1: you want to be an occult, don't buy these products.

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Speaker 1: If you're reverse psychology, Margaret, Is that what we're doing?

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Speaker 1: I know, but I don't know whether my listeners actually

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Speaker 1: want to be an a cult or not, so it's

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Speaker 1: hard to know which way to go. It's really a

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Speaker 1: toss up. I actually think it's possible that whether or

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Speaker 1: not you support the people who support this podcast, I

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Speaker 1: actually don't think it's going to make any difference into

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Speaker 1: your called affiliation. So here's some advertisers and we're back. No,

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Speaker 1: it's it's absolutely true that there's this like, yeah, there's

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Speaker 1: this absolute tension, right and and you we see it

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Speaker 1: all the time. Yeah, you like raised by hippie parents,

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00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:11,679
Speaker 1: and then you're gonna reject it all, you know. Isabel

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Speaker 1: and two of her siblings don't see it this way.

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Speaker 1: Her two oldest siblings absolutely see it this way. And

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Speaker 1: Trophomowski Alexander anarchy dad, he gets described as paranoid, and

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Speaker 1: I wonder whether he was paranoid or if he was

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Speaker 1: an anarchist conspiration in the nineteenth century he was trying

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Speaker 1: to overthrow state power and oppression and closely tied with

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Speaker 1: people were getting off for being that way, who had

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Speaker 1: stolen three or four children from Russian noble But he's,

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Speaker 1: oh yeah, he's he's in this like very complicated underworld.

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Speaker 1: And I can see how that would just look paranoid

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Speaker 1: to other people. And you know, maybe he was like

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Speaker 1: protecting his family from the details and we'll never know, no,

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Speaker 1: I know. And also I think a bunch of the

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Speaker 1: families in on it. Isabel ever heart was absolutely in

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Speaker 1: on it um and I reason to believe his wife

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Speaker 1: was in on it, Natalie. But you know, to everyone

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Speaker 1: in the outside, he's not going to be like, Well,

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Speaker 1: the reason I'm so reclusive is because the police are

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Speaker 1: after everyone I care about, you know, and they have

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Speaker 1: a bunch of visitors like this, and so they get

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Speaker 1: something of a worldly education. Most of the visitors are

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Speaker 1: other exiles, in particular Russians and Turks, and I really

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Speaker 1: want to know more, but don't about Turkish and Russian

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Speaker 1: relations as relates to anarchism and nihilism at this at

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Speaker 1: this point, because Russian means anywhere from the Empire, right,

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Speaker 1: which absolutely includes large chunks of what would be considered

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Speaker 1: Southwest Asia today, including Alexander's own background. Isabelle grew up

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Speaker 1: loving her time on secret dad's anarchy villain and she

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Speaker 1: grew up playing with animals and daydreaming and writing and

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Speaker 1: learning and meeting people from around the world. We're too

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Speaker 1: oldest siblings not so much. Their dad was the right

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Speaker 1: hand man of the god damn Zar, and they wanted

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Speaker 1: to get back at into well he means dead, but

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Speaker 1: you know this is their heritage from their point of view, right,

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Speaker 1: and I think I remember she rode a bunch of horses.

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Speaker 1: Did you did you come across that? There's like people

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Speaker 1: have talked about how she had the chance probably to

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Speaker 1: ride horses, but we don't necessarily have like super crazy evidence,

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Speaker 1: but yet almost certainly, and because horses are a huge

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Speaker 1: part of her life, but I don't know whether she's specifically.

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Speaker 1: I didn't find one of those storians I read talked

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Speaker 1: about how like we don't know if she was a

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Speaker 1: horse girl, but probably yeah, but we could. I think, Okay,

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Speaker 1: we'll just decide everyone else. I I don't know where

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00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:37,600
Speaker 1: I got that. I'm sorry, no, no, I mean like yeah, Also,

386
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Speaker 1: like I still haven't read everything there is to know

387
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:41,840
Speaker 1: about There's been so much written about his Isabhaba from

388
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:44,200
Speaker 1: so many different positions, and it's always trying to pin

389
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Speaker 1: her down because she's so many different people to depending

390
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:51,840
Speaker 1: on how you look at her. So older siblings, they're

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Speaker 1: piste off because he makes them read banned books like

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Speaker 1: a meal Zola. Older brother Nicholas, he fucks off back

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Speaker 1: to Russia. He runs away, he makes it, and he

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Speaker 1: returns to the a Murder family. The fifteen year old

395
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Speaker 1: brother Vladimir he's torn between these two worlds. Anarchy Dad's like, hey, Bud,

396
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Speaker 1: stay here, like grow some cactuses, and Nicholas is like, no,

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Speaker 1: come home to your true heritage as a nobility. And

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Speaker 1: so when he's fifteen, he tries to run away, and

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Speaker 1: anarchy Dad tracks him down, is like, talks him into

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Speaker 1: coming home, and then, un characteristically to a modern context,

401
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Speaker 1: the second time that the kid runs away, anarchy Dad

402
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Speaker 1: goes to the cops. It's like, my kid ran away,

403
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Speaker 1: and the cops helped track him down the kid and

404
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:35,919
Speaker 1: they bring him back home. After that, Vladimir lives the

405
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Speaker 1: rest of his life on his villain happily working with plants. Wow,

406
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Speaker 1: sometimes unhappily. We'll talk about that in a little bit.

407
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Speaker 1: But he just gave he gave up trying to go

408
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Speaker 1: back to the von Murderers. Yeah, And I think it's

409
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Speaker 1: the best I can tell based on actually the end

410
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Speaker 1: of Vladimir's life is that it was like he was

411
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Speaker 1: being really actively like Nicholas's older brother is like, fuck,

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Speaker 1: you get the funk back here, right, And then anarchy

413
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,240
Speaker 1: Dad was maybe also being like funck you get the

414
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Speaker 1: funk back here. I don't know, I don't know the

415
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:11,880
Speaker 1: tone of him. I know the tone of Nicholas, which

416
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Speaker 1: was aggressive. Um, but so he was he was torn right.

417
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Speaker 1: Older sister Natalie Jr. She runs away to marry someone

418
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Speaker 1: who has close ties to Russia, also hates Alexander, and

419
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Speaker 1: they all star at part of this like massive conspiracy,

420
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Speaker 1: not even in like a negative way, right, Like there

421
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,600
Speaker 1: like Alexander and Natalie Sr. Like robbed the family of

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Speaker 1: their inheritance and like pushed it into the anarchist movement instead, right,

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Speaker 1: And so there becomes this like massive conspiracy to like

424
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:42,920
Speaker 1: get all of that money back and also like get

425
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:45,080
Speaker 1: and that's part of why they like want Vladimir back.

426
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:50,119
Speaker 1: I'm imagining this is like a really really beautiful period drama.

427
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 1: This would be so incredible, Oh totally. The most complicated

428
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:58,920
Speaker 1: thing I know about anarchy Dad is that Natalie Jr.

429
00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 1: Said while she was making when she ran away and

430
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:05,680
Speaker 1: as she was making her way across, she said that

431
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:10,159
Speaker 1: m Alexandra Trofamoski propositioned her for sex and that she

432
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:13,879
Speaker 1: said no, And then also said that Alexandra Trofomoski had

433
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,680
Speaker 1: poisoned her dad or conspired to get her dad poisoned,

434
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 1: and these things might be true. I have no I

435
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 1: like hate to doubt that kind of claim. It's entirely

436
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,920
Speaker 1: possible that he did that. It's just as entirely possible

437
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,680
Speaker 1: that she's like doing what she can to get back

438
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 1: to Russia. But he might But anarchy dad alexand Trofmouski

439
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 1: might have been a fucking creep like I don't know

440
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:41,600
Speaker 1: that he might have been so like like um, sexually

441
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:45,919
Speaker 1: liberated in the you know, the creepy senses that people

442
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:51,280
Speaker 1: have had in the past. We really just don't know definitively.

443
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:56,639
Speaker 1: So we can't really make a definitive claim here. No. So,

444
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,479
Speaker 1: but Isabel elebr Heart grew up and she gets her

445
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:02,959
Speaker 1: mother's maiden name eber Heart instead of Murder like all

446
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,639
Speaker 1: of her siblings are de Murder. She grows up with

447
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 1: a love of learning languages and Islam. Actually she was

448
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,879
Speaker 1: reading the Koran and Arabic with her dad, whose hatred

449
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 1: of organized religion as a as an anarchist was way

450
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:19,879
Speaker 1: harder against Christianity than Islam by most accounts, and of

451
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,160
Speaker 1: course from his background what we would now call Swanna,

452
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 1: Southwestern Asia and North Africa. Um, but they probably called

453
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 1: the Orient at the time that area. Swanna was more

454
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,200
Speaker 1: familiar and more part of their world than Europe and

455
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,879
Speaker 1: the West had been when when at least Dad was

456
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:36,720
Speaker 1: growing up. And so the people who are coming and

457
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:41,239
Speaker 1: visiting and stuff, um are much more from Swanna or

458
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:46,159
Speaker 1: the Orient or whatever. An anarchy. Dad is rekindling his

459
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,879
Speaker 1: interest in his Muslim his own Muslim background to his

460
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 1: atheism is tempered more and more with Islam. He starts

461
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,439
Speaker 1: signing his letters in traditional Muslim ways. I think that

462
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 1: meaning peace be upon you. But I don't know if

463
00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,240
Speaker 1: he wrote in Arabic or Russian or whatever. I did. Um,

464
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:02,199
Speaker 1: it just was like and signed it and you know,

465
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 1: traditional Muslim wise or whatever, and tried to look do

466
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,959
Speaker 1: more work about that. He spends all of his time

467
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,639
Speaker 1: talking about Jesus Christ, which is also funny and not

468
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 1: something that a devout Muslim wi necessarily do, but it

469
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 1: is what a grouty x orthodox anarchist from a Muslim

470
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:22,440
Speaker 1: background would do. And and I just find this really

471
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,159
Speaker 1: interesting that he's slipping more and more spiritualist as as

472
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 1: he gets older. Well, I mean, he was already a priest,

473
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 1: so he he had that like significant religious background, and

474
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 1: it's it's hard to get away from that language, even

475
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:44,680
Speaker 1: if you are a straight up atheist that's your background. Yeah, yeah,

476
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:46,200
Speaker 1: And I think that actually there's this thing that we

477
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 1: like talk about like the nineteenth century the left being

478
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 1: very like explicitly materialist and always atheist and stuff. But

479
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 1: even these people who are like calling themselves atheists are

480
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,360
Speaker 1: still actually doing religioship all of the time. And like

481
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,480
Speaker 1: we we always try to did not by it, but

482
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,879
Speaker 1: it especially I think as people get older, Um, I

483
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 1: think that people tend to drop materialism and start engaging

484
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:13,400
Speaker 1: more with religion as a well. Religion is also just

485
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:19,680
Speaker 1: like such a powerful organizing tool and it's great if

486
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:25,920
Speaker 1: you can use that language to the advantage of your movement. Yeah, totally.

487
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 1: And and Islam at this point in the late nineteenth

488
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 1: century is tending more radical radical in a positive way,

489
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 1: as I would describe it, um, the more like roughly

490
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 1: more socialist e direction. You've got this guy, his name

491
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 1: is Jamala than al Afghani, and he's an Islamic thinker,

492
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 1: and he's a leader who's trying to fight Western colonialism,

493
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 1: and he's also trying to introduce reforms into Islam to

494
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 1: make it more justin good he fights for Muslim Hindu

495
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 1: solidarity and driving the Brits out of India. And he's

496
00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 1: just like extra cool and interesting because he wasn't drive

497
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 1: out Western powers by becoming conservative as fuck like say

498
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 1: Isis or the Taliban you know, largely try to do now,

499
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 1: but instead to seek political reforms that would help Islam

500
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 1: return to its as he would perceive it. It's real

501
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 1: roots of carrying injustice, not orthodoxy in law. And it

502
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 1: becomes super beautiful, I know, and he and he believed

503
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 1: that this was the path to um help Islam. Yeah,

504
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 1: drive out the colonists. And this guy keeps getting kicked

505
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 1: out of everywhere and he keeps helping plant assassinations, and

506
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 1: it's like, no wonder this Russian anarchist guy liked him

507
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 1: because he sounds just like the Russian anarchist. He's not

508
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 1: an anarchist, but he preaches love in resistance and he

509
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 1: gets kicked out of everywhere and he like tries to

510
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 1: murder people and he just keeps going. You know, it's

511
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:45,959
Speaker 1: like very familiar. I think I want to learn more

512
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 1: about him one day. Unfortunately it was like outside aside

513
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 1: thing as I worked through this in her adult life,

514
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 1: Isabel is very much a Muslim. She holds that she

515
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 1: never converted to Islam because she was. She says she

516
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 1: was born a Muslim with muzz Russian father and a

517
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 1: Christian Russian mother, which is okay, so she's lying, but

518
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 1: she's she's also not about to say, like what what

519
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 1: did I miss? What? I want to interject and say

520
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 1: that the people who convert to Islam. I know of

521
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 1: two people who just say that. They're like, I didn't becommon,

522
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 1: I didn't become Muslim. I realized that I was interesting.

523
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 1: And so that is that is. I don't know like

524
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 1: how codified that is in terms of, you know, how

525
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 1: everybody converts to Islam, but that is absolutely what Shad

526
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 1: O'Connor said, and that's what another very dear friend of

527
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 1: mine said when she converted, because that's not the language

528
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 1: she uses when she recognized herself as a Muslim. So

529
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 1: that is, that's that's important. That's a thing to understand

530
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 1: coming from Christian culture, as we do know that that

531
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 1: or Judeo Christian. Yeah, that's interesting and it makes some

532
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 1: sense and I think that ties into it. But she's

533
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 1: also like she's claiming a specific existence of a specific

534
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 1: father who's a Turkish, sometimes a Muslim, Russian and sometimes

535
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 1: Turkish Muslim, and she's making this this character up. But

536
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 1: what's interesting is that she's like, because she doesn't officially

537
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 1: know who her dad is, she invents this Muslim father

538
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 1: in order to accept it. But her her father was

539
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 1: an Armenian from a Turkish Muslim background, So it's like

540
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 1: she's kind of claiming the truth by lying, and it's

541
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 1: like really weird way. But she also is absolutely someone

542
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 1: who's going to like take on identities and refused to

543
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 1: be getting kept about them, like because some of the

544
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 1: people who like her mother later is going to more

545
00:31:56,200 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 1: properly like sort of convert to Islam. But uh, as

546
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 1: she grows up, she's like, oh my god, I gotta

547
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 1: go to Magreb, which is the word for the Muslim

548
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 1: parts of North Africa. She starts fantasizing about it and

549
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 1: kind of classic exoticization ways. She's like, Wow, that's where

550
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 1: like the real stuff is happening, not like boring old Europe.

551
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 1: And she's like always talking about being like the beauty

552
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 1: of the wild Orient and all that kind of stuff.

553
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 1: Uh huh. In the meantime, she's eighteen nineteen years old.

554
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 1: She's spending time in town dressed like a sailor boy.

555
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 1: Books say her dad insisted she just like a man

556
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 1: to go into town, but everything implies that she's a

557
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 1: percent down with us. She dresses like a sailor, She

558
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 1: goes around, she gets drunk. She hooks up with Mary,

559
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 1: a married man who stoked about kissing a girl just

560
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 1: like a boy, because she doesn't change. On the other hand,

561
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 1: people that she tries to flirt with or like you,

562
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 1: I don't know if you're a boy or a girl,

563
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 1: or what race or nationality you are. So no, yeah,

564
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 1: that's gross. Whenever I read about women in history present masculine,

565
00:32:57,320 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 1: I always run across every guy observing them, like needing

566
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 1: to make it real clear, either like wow, they're so hot,

567
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 1: or like you, what an ugly bitch? Because nothing changes,

568
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 1: everything is exactly. Yeah, we need to we need to know,

569
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 1: you need to know what their dick thought about that. Yeah.

570
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:15,719
Speaker 1: Wait till we get to the part where everyone conjectures

571
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 1: about isabel ever Heart's interest in anal sex so way

572
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 1: to not get pregnant. That is the conjecture that people

573
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 1: are making, yes, um so during this time, she's nineteen

574
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 1: years old, she's heavily involved in anarchism in the Russian

575
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:37,040
Speaker 1: exile community. She uses her youth and disguise skills and

576
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 1: her family connections to move about. She referred to it

577
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 1: later as she was the secretary to the Central Council

578
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 1: of Russian Terrorists, And she might have been I know, right,

579
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:49,400
Speaker 1: she was like probably trying to impress people when she

580
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 1: said that, but she also wasn't lying, you know what

581
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:57,480
Speaker 1: a life. I know her dad was this big deal

582
00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 1: and that like let's kill Russian autocrats movement. She doesn't

583
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 1: last too long in the anarchist movement though. Overall. Basically

584
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 1: she's like, it's too organized for me. She wants individual

585
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 1: freedom to just do whatever she wants, not solemnly work

586
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:12,359
Speaker 1: in secret societies to make zars explode. And she wants

587
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 1: a different sort of adventure. She wants less duty, more romance,

588
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:20,359
Speaker 1: less materialism, and more mysticism. So she starts writing at

589
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 1: this point. I think she's been writing in her whole life,

590
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,480
Speaker 1: but she starts publishing at this point under the name

591
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,839
Speaker 1: Nicholas put Alinski, and her first part, which is interesting

592
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 1: because it's her brother's name, Nicholas, the brother she doesn't like,

593
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:35,799
Speaker 1: but Yeah, it's like ha ha suka taking the name

594
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:39,400
Speaker 1: from you. Yeah, totally. Oh ship. There's that meme recently

595
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 1: about like non binary people or like trans people, how

596
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,240
Speaker 1: they choose to name themselves and what d indie alignment

597
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 1: it makes them and the chaotic evil one is steal

598
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:52,919
Speaker 1: someone else's name. M hm. So what is that coup

599
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:56,800
Speaker 1: song that's like I forget, It's like I want to

600
00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:01,719
Speaker 1: drink a good looker and and fucking start a re Lucian. Yeah,

601
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:07,520
Speaker 1: that is that is her and she's um. She's also

602
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:13,640
Speaker 1: wants to write edge Lord fiction about necrophilia, which is

603
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 1: also a classic coup. No, probably not. Yeah, what is that?

604
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 1: Is that like part of the like different ideas about

605
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 1: like sexual liberation at the time. No, I think she's

606
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:27,640
Speaker 1: just a weird god who wants to funck corps. Isn't

607
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,840
Speaker 1: as obsessed with death. Her first published story, when she's eighteen,

608
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 1: is under the name Nicholas potlin Ski and it's called Infernalia,

609
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,719
Speaker 1: and it's about a romantic and sexual attraction to the

610
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:42,239
Speaker 1: dead as a way of understanding the death or within us.

611
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 1: All you know, you do, you do? You is able

612
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:48,920
Speaker 1: ever heart and if you want to do you express

613
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:56,960
Speaker 1: your individuality by buying lifestyle that's advertised to you by

614
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:03,719
Speaker 1: the advertisers to the show, by into the culture of death. Yeah,

615
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 1: this show is sponsored by the culture of death. Maybe, Sophie,

616
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,920
Speaker 1: just capital Isn't that just capitalism? Oh? That's true. But

617
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:20,360
Speaker 1: what if we like made it cool, like make death good? Oh?

618
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 1: I thought you're gonna I thought you're gonna say, what

619
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:25,360
Speaker 1: if we made capitalism cool? Like? It isn't that? It

620
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 1: isn't not this podcast. I think that's I think that's

621
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 1: what's happening. That's what the advertisers are trying to do.

622
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:36,719
Speaker 1: Absolutely well, here's the people we're talking about, the advertisers,

623
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 1: and we're back. Hi. Hello, how did you enjoy those

624
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:51,280
Speaker 1: products and or services? Usually when I listened to these podcasts,

625
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,400
Speaker 1: I usually just get podcasts. I get ads about other podcasts,

626
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:58,279
Speaker 1: which is pretty innocuous. What do you usually get? Yeah?

627
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 1: I get podcasts and um, you know, people with extremely

628
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:07,880
Speaker 1: smartie voices selling things. It's just like it's all in

629
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 1: the tone. Even if it's like people whose voices I

630
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 1: like you, there's the smarminess. Yeah, I get complaints about

631
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 1: smartiness about every ad Ever, thank you for thank you

632
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 1: for taking all all that nonsense on. Even if they

633
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 1: like the ad still reads as a complaint. I mean, like,

634
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:34,359
Speaker 1: I don't think anyone's like, man, you know it's really

635
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:36,360
Speaker 1: cool is the fact that in order to do this

636
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:39,400
Speaker 1: and spend the amount of hours it takes to research

637
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:41,880
Speaker 1: one of these episodes, I need to get paid for it,

638
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:45,400
Speaker 1: and therefore I need to get some capitalist institution to

639
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:49,759
Speaker 1: interact with me. Like, no one's like that. Rules, Like,

640
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:53,000
Speaker 1: of course the ads suck their ads, their ads, and

641
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:56,719
Speaker 1: we have they're mostly all programmatic and we have no

642
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:58,879
Speaker 1: idea what they are and have no saying and don't

643
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 1: have any approval were action on them. Yeah, the good

644
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 1: the goodness of potatoes is supporting us all. But we

645
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:09,880
Speaker 1: still need dollars. Yeah, yeah, I think we all have

646
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 1: dogs mouths we need to feed. Okay, it's true that

647
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 1: is something we determined ahead of time before and and

648
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:20,880
Speaker 1: dogs dogs dental bills. I've learned. I'm just brush my

649
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 1: dog's teeth, Margaret, Margaret learned so many things today. We're

650
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:27,359
Speaker 1: gonna leave it at that and not tell anyone else

651
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:32,399
Speaker 1: what I've learned. So she's anyway, Like we were talking about,

652
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:34,839
Speaker 1: isabel Lebrhard she's not yet twenty and she's publishing fiction.

653
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:36,719
Speaker 1: I don't see if I can do this normally. And

654
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 1: she's publishing translations of Russian No, I can't. Okay, So

655
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:43,959
Speaker 1: it's not that that was a cool little bit. Yeah, thanks,

656
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 1: so totally okay. So she's publishing fiction, and she's publishing

657
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 1: translations of Russian poets and ship. Meanwhile, her older probably

658
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:58,439
Speaker 1: full brother, Augustine, he's legally a de murder, probably Alexander's kid. Also,

659
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 1: he's the black sheep, which is impressive. It's hard to

660
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:04,919
Speaker 1: be a black sheep and a family where one half

661
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 1: of the family has fucked off to um crush Russian

662
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 1: peasantry beneath their heels. And one of the other kids

663
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 1: is abe lebber Heart, like one of the most famous

664
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:20,719
Speaker 1: drug ease in history. But the family funk up is Augustine.

665
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:24,920
Speaker 1: They're morederm. How did he earn this? He just kind

666
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:28,879
Speaker 1: of like he just got like drunk and hung out,

667
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:31,800
Speaker 1: but he didn't like do anything cool with it, Like

668
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:33,719
Speaker 1: if you're going to be like a drunk funk up

669
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 1: like go adventure. I guess it's the lesson anarchy. Dad

670
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:38,840
Speaker 1: tries to get him into chemistry, school, but he was

671
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 1: more into drugs and hanging out on the street and

672
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 1: occasionally would come home to steal money. Um. But I

673
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,400
Speaker 1: think the family was like, not mad, just disappointed about

674
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:48,359
Speaker 1: all of this, like tried to help him out a lot,

675
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 1: because when I imagine Alexander, um, I don't imagine him

676
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 1: minding the stealing. He the villa was paid for by

677
00:39:55,719 --> 00:40:00,919
Speaker 1: money that he stole, you know. But Augustine black sheep brother,

678
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 1: her and Isabel were super close. It's possible that she

679
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 1: was sleeping with him as a teenager. Historians liked conjecture.

680
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 1: They corresponded a bunch and talked about remember those kisses

681
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:13,160
Speaker 1: as we stole when no one was watching. Is all

682
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:20,120
Speaker 1: very tragic and European nobility. I don't know. Yeah. At

683
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 1: one point Augustin joined the French Foreign Legion. Isabel applied

684
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,919
Speaker 1: him for information about North Africa. Then he wanted to leave,

685
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:30,759
Speaker 1: and Alexander had to intercede on his behalf. Basically he

686
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 1: was like, I'm such a funk up, I'm gonna go

687
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:36,399
Speaker 1: join the French Foreign Legion. And then like the French

688
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:38,239
Speaker 1: Foreign Legion had like a sign on the wall in

689
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:41,600
Speaker 1: the recruitment office that was like, look, you're dead now,

690
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:44,719
Speaker 1: and we're just going to decide where you die, which

691
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:48,239
Speaker 1: is not a very positive thing for a recruitment office. Yeah,

692
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,359
Speaker 1: that's terrifying. Yeah, So he's like, oh god, I think

693
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:53,320
Speaker 1: he likes Soper sup And he's like, oh god, what

694
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:58,279
Speaker 1: have I done? And Alexander Trofinovski anarchy Dad has to

695
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:00,759
Speaker 1: intercede on his behalf and kind have threatened to make

696
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:03,239
Speaker 1: it an international incident if the French Foreign Legion doesn't

697
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:05,879
Speaker 1: kick him out and he doesn't show up and be like, hey,

698
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 1: I'm a super cool nihilist. I'll blow you up if

699
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:09,880
Speaker 1: you don't let him go. Instead, he's like, that's a

700
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:12,439
Speaker 1: day murder you got there. If you it's gonna get messy.

701
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,759
Speaker 1: If you just just let him go, that's a that's

702
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:21,880
Speaker 1: a good targeted message. So Isabel tries to get so

703
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 1: Augustin gets out. Isabel tries to get him to move

704
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 1: to Algiers or something so she can go hang out

705
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 1: there because she really wants to go to North Africa.

706
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:32,440
Speaker 1: But instead he just like keeps doing drugs in Switzerland

707
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:34,759
Speaker 1: maybe France. At this point, he might have moved to

708
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:36,160
Speaker 1: Marseille at this point, I'm not sure. When he moves

709
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 1: to Marseilles, So she's like kind of drugs as he doing.

710
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 1: I don't know about him. I know there's alcohol. I

711
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:47,120
Speaker 1: think it's not hashish. That's more what Isabel Blaba Heart's

712
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 1: getting really into. But I like don't know I would.

713
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:54,759
Speaker 1: I'm trying to like drum up what I know about

714
00:41:54,840 --> 00:42:00,840
Speaker 1: like Victorian European drugs and like probably like morphine and

715
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:07,160
Speaker 1: laudanum and right that stuff. Yeah, do you know, do

716
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:12,920
Speaker 1: you have a good sense of Victorian? I remember this

717
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 1: little factoid that's just like so incredible to me, and

718
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 1: I will probably get this wrong, but um, this is

719
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:26,239
Speaker 1: how I learned that the man who invented the syringe

720
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:32,040
Speaker 1: his wife was the first Haroin addict that trucks. Oh

721
00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 1: oh no, uh yeah, but that's yeah, for everything you named,

722
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:45,839
Speaker 1: that sounds super plausible. I can't think of anything else. Well,

723
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:48,040
Speaker 1: I do know that there was this like Victorian fat.

724
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:49,880
Speaker 1: This might have been more English. It's fat for o

725
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 1: rangatang adrenaline. Good fucking god, I know. Which is just like,

726
00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 1: how can we make drugs even more orientalists and involve

727
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:03,279
Speaker 1: of oppressing various people in other countries? And the answer

728
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:08,880
Speaker 1: is a rangatang adrenaline. Um, yeah, that's terrifying. Yeah, so

729
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 1: Isabel aber Heart, She's like, fuck it, you know, I'll

730
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:18,320
Speaker 1: I'll go myself to North Africa. And so she starts

731
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 1: corresponding with a ton of people under a ton of

732
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:23,760
Speaker 1: different names and personas. She would have fucking loved the Internet.

733
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 1: She's writing Islamic thinkers to ask questions about faith. She's

734
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 1: writing French soldiers and algiers to learn about what their

735
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:33,920
Speaker 1: country is like. She's discussing like how to translate Russian

736
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 1: poetry into Arabic with people like all over the world beautiful. Yeah.

737
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:46,000
Speaker 1: And so the family, like mom and sort of dad,

738
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 1: they've pulled off the caper of a lifetime. They've you know,

739
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:50,239
Speaker 1: stolen the inheritance and the children. As they keep going

740
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:54,359
Speaker 1: on about twenty years later, it looks like they might

741
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:58,160
Speaker 1: be in trouble for that. Nicholas de Murder, the oldest son,

742
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 1: the one who would run away back to Russia. It

743
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 1: is his life's work to get revenge. Which fair They

744
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 1: might have killed his dad and then stolen him and

745
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 1: you know whatever, Like I'm on a side in this fight,

746
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:15,319
Speaker 1: but it's like fair that the other side is fighting yea.

747
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:20,439
Speaker 1: And the Vladimir, the middle brother, the one who would

748
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:22,719
Speaker 1: halfheartedly run away from home, He's back at the villa

749
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:25,560
Speaker 1: and Nicholas is pleading with him, like, hey, Bud runaway

750
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 1: joined despot family with me in Russia. And Vladimir is

751
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 1: not sure, and then Nicholas start sending him letters that

752
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 1: are like, you better get out because we're gonna funk

753
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:34,960
Speaker 1: up the villa and everyone in it. And if you

754
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:38,480
Speaker 1: don't get out, you're fucked. So the whole family is like,

755
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:42,920
Speaker 1: maybe Switzerland isn't the place for us anymore, Maybe we

756
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:48,280
Speaker 1: should go somewhere else. And Isabelle she's like, Algeria, Algeria, Algeria.

757
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:50,240
Speaker 1: I'm totally obsessed with Algeria. We have to move to Algeria.

758
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 1: So the family moved to Algeria, at least isabel and

759
00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 1: her mother, with one brother and dad remaining behind to

760
00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 1: try and sell the villa to various cact enthusiasts. Wow,

761
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:07,279
Speaker 1: they have trouble moving the cactus farm. People aren't people

762
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:10,960
Speaker 1: aren't necessarily excited about buying the weird cult anarchy cactus

763
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 1: commune practuses are amazing. I mean, that's that's the Huntington's

764
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 1: gardens here it's just like some crazy rich person's incredible

765
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:32,800
Speaker 1: cactus collection and that rules. It's so beautiful. I I

766
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:34,960
Speaker 1: really appreciate that this is just a man with a

767
00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:37,440
Speaker 1: hobby and it matters to him as much as anything

768
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:40,719
Speaker 1: else that's going on in his life. You know. Yeah,

769
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:45,600
Speaker 1: I mean sometimes those collections, it really preserves like the

770
00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:50,319
Speaker 1: last of species. Yeah, yeah, I want to know more

771
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 1: about his Like it keeps basically referring to it as

772
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:57,120
Speaker 1: like part of what's wrong with him, you know, is

773
00:45:57,160 --> 00:45:59,719
Speaker 1: that he's like obsessed with this stuff. But he likes

774
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:01,400
Speaker 1: spent all of his days in his hot house with

775
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 1: cactuses and orchids, And I'm like, so he's clearly trying

776
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:09,080
Speaker 1: to he's trying to do like hard gardening, you know,

777
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 1: he's trying to do gardening on hard mode and super.

778
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:17,400
Speaker 1: It was like it was scientific at the time, but like,

779
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 1: I mean, they were wrong about hot houses. You don't

780
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:24,359
Speaker 1: need a hot house for orchids. Oh interesting, Okay, yeah

781
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:28,960
Speaker 1: they used to think, Well it was right, that's part

782
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:33,440
Speaker 1: of it. Sophia is not an orchid? Is that an

783
00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 1: orchid from your dad behind me? There? Yeah, Well there

784
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:39,800
Speaker 1: aren't any orchids down here, but it is hard to

785
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:42,279
Speaker 1: tell what things are behind me, but there are some.

786
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 1: I do have several Dad orchids upstairs. I'm I'm the

787
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:52,439
Speaker 1: I'm the person in my circle of friends who gets

788
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:57,040
Speaker 1: all the orchids that nobody wants to to funk with. Yeah. No,

789
00:46:57,280 --> 00:46:59,239
Speaker 1: that's my dad. That's like his main thing is like

790
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:03,439
Speaker 1: this orchid that hasn't been showing you anything for seven

791
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:08,359
Speaker 1: thousand years, look at the bloom and that's great for him.

792
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:12,920
Speaker 1: That's really really sweet. Yeah, I mean, I'm I only

793
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:16,319
Speaker 1: have one orchid right now, but it's uh it has

794
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:19,920
Speaker 1: three stocks instead of the two that it had last year,

795
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 1: So I'm really excited. That's awesome and not easy to do.

796
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:28,239
Speaker 1: As I've been told by my dad. I think it's

797
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:31,239
Speaker 1: pretty easy if you just know what to do. They

798
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:33,320
Speaker 1: just like to be I'm gonna be like, oh that

799
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:37,399
Speaker 1: thing you brag about heart, it was easy. Sorry, maybe

800
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:41,160
Speaker 1: get out of the hothouse. Uh they yeah, they like

801
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:45,399
Speaker 1: to be ignored. Yes, they just need the right kind

802
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:47,879
Speaker 1: of lighting. And while we're here, that myth that you're

803
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:52,719
Speaker 1: supposed to put an ice cube into orchids, No, yeah,

804
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:55,520
Speaker 1: that sounds I never did it because it just sounded

805
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:59,000
Speaker 1: kind of cruel, like I wouldn't want um like an

806
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:01,480
Speaker 1: ice cube on my feet, so I'm not going to

807
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:11,200
Speaker 1: stick ice cube in my orchid yair so Algeria. Um,

808
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:14,480
Speaker 1: it's in North Africa. The whole region is called mc

809
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:16,799
Speaker 1: grab a lot of the time at this point, which

810
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:19,800
Speaker 1: is means the West because it's the western part of

811
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:22,640
Speaker 1: the Islamic world. Sometimes the area is called its called

812
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:25,040
Speaker 1: the Barbary Coast in the nineteenth century because the Berbers

813
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:28,600
Speaker 1: and indigenous people that region. Wow, okay, I needed to

814
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:30,480
Speaker 1: know that. I've heard about the Barbary Coast and I

815
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:32,360
Speaker 1: didn't know what it was. I know it sounds like

816
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:34,600
Speaker 1: really it sounds like even more racist of a name

817
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:36,800
Speaker 1: than like something else, because it sounds like a Barbarian

818
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:40,319
Speaker 1: I guess exactly. Well, now, I like wonder I wish

819
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 1: I had looked up the etymology of Barbarian because I

820
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:46,560
Speaker 1: wouldn't be shocked. Actually, you know what, I'm going to

821
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:50,279
Speaker 1: look up the etymology, okay. So so I just looked

822
00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:54,240
Speaker 1: it up, and Barbarian means people who are foreigners, basically

823
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:57,880
Speaker 1: from German and from Arabic. But it um, it's the

824
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:00,839
Speaker 1: admology goes the other way the Berbers got their name

825
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:08,719
Speaker 1: because of them being called Barbarians, so apparently, but at

826
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 1: least that's as of a really quick Internet search. And

827
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:16,440
Speaker 1: if I'm wrong, I'm terribly sorry. So does Barbary Coast

828
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:22,200
Speaker 1: mean like a Barbarian coast? But I think they get

829
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:25,040
Speaker 1: called the Barbary Coast because of the Berber people. I

830
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:29,560
Speaker 1: think it went. I think it went Barbarian means any

831
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:34,040
Speaker 1: foreigner because they sound funny, and then the Barbers, the

832
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:37,120
Speaker 1: Berbers got called that, and then the coast got called that,

833
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:43,719
Speaker 1: I think. But the whole history of this area is

834
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:48,080
Speaker 1: also a lot of crazy back and forth, because it's

835
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:50,800
Speaker 1: the history of various empires and colonial forces conquering it

836
00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:52,880
Speaker 1: and trading it back and forth. In the period we're

837
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:55,040
Speaker 1: talking about, You've got Algeria, which is first taken by

838
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:58,279
Speaker 1: the French in eight but they didn't take it from

839
00:49:58,280 --> 00:49:59,799
Speaker 1: the indigenous people of the region. They took it from

840
00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:04,160
Speaker 1: the hi An Empire sort of, who since the hundreds

841
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:08,160
Speaker 1: had in various levels of control, and the Ottoman Empire

842
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 1: took it from Spain again sort of. Spain kept trying

843
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:14,960
Speaker 1: to control Algae's to various degrees of success before thirteen

844
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:17,279
Speaker 1: O two was largely controlled by people were actually from there.

845
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:19,279
Speaker 1: But if you go even back further, the Romans had it,

846
00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:23,880
Speaker 1: and honestly, just the history of the Mediterranean is a

847
00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:26,959
Speaker 1: lot of people coming and fucking with it. Mm hmm.

848
00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:31,160
Speaker 1: I have a really beautiful Tunisian rug here, this thing

849
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:35,520
Speaker 1: with the carball on it. Nice, it's it's a twenty

850
00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:39,160
Speaker 1: years old and I got it off Craig's list. That's amazing.

851
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:41,120
Speaker 1: How do you know it was a hundred twenty years

852
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:45,440
Speaker 1: old because the dude was like a textiles collector that

853
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:51,239
Speaker 1: specialized in North African stuff. It was it was cheap. Yes,

854
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:54,200
Speaker 1: the light of my life at the time. It's so

855
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:57,200
Speaker 1: happy to get it. Yeah. So this is the area

856
00:50:57,400 --> 00:51:01,479
Speaker 1: that this family wants to move is Algeria during French

857
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:05,680
Speaker 1: occupation and Isabelle and Mom moved there as the advance guard,

858
00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:09,719
Speaker 1: and they're definitely doing an orientalism here. They're not moving

859
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:12,399
Speaker 1: there in a colonial context because they're on the run

860
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:14,320
Speaker 1: from the Empire. They're fighting the Empire, which is the

861
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:16,320
Speaker 1: reason one of them is quote Russian at all, because

862
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:20,239
Speaker 1: of you know, the Russian Empire stealing Armenia. But it's

863
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:23,279
Speaker 1: it's also worth noting at this point French Algeria is

864
00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:26,880
Speaker 1: not just a colonial project but an orientalist romanticism. Napoleon

865
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:28,839
Speaker 1: the Third, who had recently been in charge, had been

866
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:30,400
Speaker 1: really into the idea of how like he was going

867
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:33,280
Speaker 1: to kindly rule and be a good emperor these super

868
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:38,560
Speaker 1: cool neat savages or whatever. And yeah, they're like frances

869
00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:42,520
Speaker 1: on like a gentler kindler colonialism kick um. And it's

870
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:46,359
Speaker 1: specifically just ties into Orientalism in some ways, like makes

871
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:48,319
Speaker 1: I mean ori Analism is like pretty old. But it's

872
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:51,920
Speaker 1: like really big thing going on at this point. And

873
00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:54,920
Speaker 1: after all, says Napoleon the Third, what is northern Africa

874
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:57,759
Speaker 1: but basically just France interrupted by a big and land sea.

875
00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:01,439
Speaker 1: And so it's like it's a alonial project that's meant

876
00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:03,960
Speaker 1: to be kinder as in like they're basically France as

877
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:06,840
Speaker 1: compared to like that's the place we're just going to

878
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:11,520
Speaker 1: go rob resources from it. Yeah, no, it's it's not

879
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:14,439
Speaker 1: in any way. Better family moves there to a city

880
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:16,719
Speaker 1: that was then called Bone and is now called Anaba,

881
00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:19,120
Speaker 1: and it's the third biggest city. It's in the northeastern

882
00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:22,200
Speaker 1: corner of the country. They issue the French areas. For

883
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:24,840
Speaker 1: the Arab areas um people they have more culturally and

884
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:27,960
Speaker 1: linguistically in common with, although I suspect they're still outsiders

885
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:33,200
Speaker 1: in these areas. Isabelle continues her pseudonyms and dressing like

886
00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:36,360
Speaker 1: a man more and more. She s Mohmed Sadi, a

887
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:38,439
Speaker 1: name that she's been using for a while at this point,

888
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:40,520
Speaker 1: but it like stops being a penpell name and it

889
00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:43,440
Speaker 1: starts being like her name. When she goes about her

890
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:47,080
Speaker 1: life and she refers to herself basically as a tomboy.

891
00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:48,880
Speaker 1: She talks about her own gender in a lot of

892
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:51,160
Speaker 1: different ways at a lot of different times. It was

893
00:52:51,239 --> 00:52:53,600
Speaker 1: less that she always wanted to pass as a man,

894
00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:56,279
Speaker 1: but instead it was about being socially treated as a man,

895
00:52:56,960 --> 00:52:59,840
Speaker 1: and for the most part it worked. She'd often be

896
00:52:59,920 --> 00:53:03,040
Speaker 1: a mistaken for a man at first glance, but usually

897
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:06,040
Speaker 1: not for very long, and then she would reveal herself

898
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:07,919
Speaker 1: or be revealed as a woman and have the person

899
00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:10,400
Speaker 1: be like, Okay, that's true. I'll still just keep treating

900
00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:12,920
Speaker 1: like a man if that's what you want. And it

901
00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:16,480
Speaker 1: sounds really nice, I know, I know. And we're gonna

902
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:19,799
Speaker 1: talk a bit more about how all of that. How

903
00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:21,440
Speaker 1: she gets away with that, and a lot of it

904
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:23,440
Speaker 1: has to do with a lot of it has to

905
00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:25,000
Speaker 1: do with being in a Muslim country in the nineteenth

906
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:28,560
Speaker 1: century versus being in Europe in the nineteenth century. Yeah,

907
00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:31,040
Speaker 1: I mean, I think so. I don't know a whole

908
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:36,240
Speaker 1: lot about that that sort of thing in Islamic culture,

909
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:41,160
Speaker 1: but I think about you know, as a musician, I

910
00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:44,759
Speaker 1: know a little bit about um kal Sum's life, and

911
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:48,719
Speaker 1: I know that she dressed as a boy when she

912
00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:52,799
Speaker 1: was out singing with her father when she was a kid.

913
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:56,640
Speaker 1: Who is this umkal Sum? She's like one of the

914
00:53:56,800 --> 00:54:03,920
Speaker 1: greatest singers in in Arabic okay, Egyptian singer. Absolutely astounding,

915
00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:08,600
Speaker 1: really really wonderful person. She she did a lot of

916
00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:15,400
Speaker 1: fundraising to try to create the nation of the independent

917
00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:19,280
Speaker 1: Nation of Egypt through her work as a as a singer,

918
00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:23,640
Speaker 1: and she worked with all these amazing modern poets, and

919
00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:31,719
Speaker 1: she's the first Egyptian composer to use electric guitar in

920
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:40,680
Speaker 1: her work. She's absolutely astounding. Please check Kelsom out. Yeah, yeah, no.

921
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:43,920
Speaker 1: And it's interesting because I've I've learned mostly about nineteenth

922
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:48,880
Speaker 1: century conceptions of gender um in North Africa, and like

923
00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:53,000
Speaker 1: it's interesting to know how it does and doesn't relate

924
00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:57,720
Speaker 1: to more modern conceptions, you know. And and so basically

925
00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:00,120
Speaker 1: she goes around the city. She's fucking and drink and

926
00:55:00,239 --> 00:55:03,319
Speaker 1: smoking hashish, and she's just having a jolly good old

927
00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:05,479
Speaker 1: time of being twenty years old in the big city.

928
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:10,719
Speaker 1: And she yeah, yeah, she's just sucking doing her life.

929
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:14,040
Speaker 1: She makes her money writing about her experiences in the

930
00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:18,440
Speaker 1: life in Algeria and selling them in European magazines. Meanwhile,

931
00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:23,160
Speaker 1: her aging mother, Natalie de moder formally converts to Islam

932
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:27,960
Speaker 1: and changes her name to fat Minobia. She's sixty, is

933
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:30,759
Speaker 1: it Fatima? I believe it's Fatma, but I'm I'm not

934
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:35,640
Speaker 1: entirely certain. She's sixty. Issue, she's ill health and not

935
00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:39,960
Speaker 1: long after she dies, and she so right before she

936
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:42,960
Speaker 1: she dies. Basically, she converts to Islam. She cuts her

937
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:45,319
Speaker 1: trader kids, Natalie and Nicholas, the two had gone back

938
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:48,560
Speaker 1: to Russia, out of the will, and leaves the money

939
00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:51,040
Speaker 1: to her boyfriend and the remaining radical kids, which is

940
00:55:51,120 --> 00:55:53,799
Speaker 1: part of my whole Like she has agency and as

941
00:55:53,840 --> 00:55:56,719
Speaker 1: part of this massive grift to rob the Russian aristocracy

942
00:55:56,800 --> 00:56:00,360
Speaker 1: that she's from, you know, like on her deathbed, She's like,

943
00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:03,560
Speaker 1: this is still what matters to me. Well, the I mean,

944
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:08,680
Speaker 1: the Russian aristocracy is it's just so shocking the kind

945
00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:12,000
Speaker 1: of wealth that they amassed, and it was by slavery.

946
00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:17,800
Speaker 1: It was completely horrific. I was over in Russia like

947
00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:25,600
Speaker 1: I don't know, like two thousand four or something, um

948
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:27,759
Speaker 1: and just saw like all the some of the old

949
00:56:27,840 --> 00:56:31,759
Speaker 1: palaces have been turned into museums, and it's just it's

950
00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:37,160
Speaker 1: just completely obscene. Yeah, you don't become the the biggest

951
00:56:37,560 --> 00:56:41,600
Speaker 1: empire one of the Yeah, did you went around robbing people? Yeah?

952
00:56:42,239 --> 00:56:50,200
Speaker 1: And so Isabel's despondent after her mother dies and Alexander anarchy.

953
00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:53,040
Speaker 1: Dad rushes over from Switzerland to Bone when his lifelong

954
00:56:53,080 --> 00:56:57,160
Speaker 1: partner dies, and one older biographer, referencing a source that's

955
00:56:57,200 --> 00:57:01,120
Speaker 1: now lost, says that Isabel told Alexander her I want

956
00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:04,960
Speaker 1: to die with her, and Alexander very much the Russian

957
00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:08,120
Speaker 1: nihilist in this version of the story pulls out a

958
00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:09,880
Speaker 1: revolver and puts it on the table and says, go

959
00:57:09,960 --> 00:57:14,920
Speaker 1: ahead and handed her the choice. Basically, and this makes

960
00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:17,760
Speaker 1: a very dramatic statement and as very Russian nihilist, but

961
00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:20,040
Speaker 1: don't do this and I have no idea whether he

962
00:57:20,120 --> 00:57:23,600
Speaker 1: did this or not. Yeah, not a good idea, no,

963
00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:26,320
Speaker 1: But she she doesn't do it. She doesn't kill herself.

964
00:57:28,160 --> 00:57:29,720
Speaker 1: And you know it's good for getting you out of

965
00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:32,800
Speaker 1: some despondency. This isn't an ad transition. This isn't This

966
00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:34,880
Speaker 1: is a transition to what I actually wish I was advertising.

967
00:57:34,960 --> 00:57:40,280
Speaker 1: In the show Revolution, Machman gets caught up in a revolution.

968
00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:44,240
Speaker 1: Revolution is in the air. It's march. Muslim students are

969
00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:46,880
Speaker 1: starting to get real fucking pissed at the colonial administration

970
00:57:47,240 --> 00:57:50,640
Speaker 1: of their country. And Isabelle is like, damn, I hope

971
00:57:50,680 --> 00:57:52,560
Speaker 1: it doesn't come to violence, but if it does, And now,

972
00:57:52,600 --> 00:57:56,000
Speaker 1: instead of paraphrasing her, I'm gonna actually quote her. If

973
00:57:56,040 --> 00:57:58,920
Speaker 1: the fight becomes inevitable, I won't hesitate for a single instant,

974
00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:01,480
Speaker 1: because it would be cowardice. And that makes me smile.

975
00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:04,000
Speaker 1: Perhaps I shall be fighting for the Muslim revolutionaries like

976
00:58:04,040 --> 00:58:06,680
Speaker 1: I used to for the Russian anarchists, although with more

977
00:58:06,720 --> 00:58:10,080
Speaker 1: conviction and more real hatred against depression. I feel now

978
00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:11,960
Speaker 1: that I'm much more deeply a Muslim than I was

979
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:16,800
Speaker 1: an anarchist. And so She's goes out at a demonstration

980
00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:20,080
Speaker 1: and the French police attack and the crowd fights back

981
00:58:20,160 --> 00:58:23,480
Speaker 1: with daggers and revolvers, and she's in it, and there's

982
00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:26,680
Speaker 1: some more quotes from her. My chest was pounding and

983
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:29,960
Speaker 1: my head spinning deliciously. I saw Blifia in front of

984
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:32,760
Speaker 1: me brandishing a truncheon. At every moment, it slashed into

985
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:36,000
Speaker 1: the surrounding police, cracking into skulls and arms raised in defense.

986
00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:39,280
Speaker 1: Reba Bolifia seemed transfigured. He seemed to me to have

987
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:45,640
Speaker 1: an ineffable mystical beauty. And well, I know, I guess

988
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:49,919
Speaker 1: even better. I believe that this will mark the first

989
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:53,480
Speaker 1: person I featured on this show to fight cops by

990
00:58:53,600 --> 00:59:02,520
Speaker 1: wielding a sword. Yeah, almost a year, but we got there.

991
00:59:03,880 --> 00:59:08,520
Speaker 1: Did she did she learn Like did she learn sword

992
00:59:08,760 --> 00:59:12,440
Speaker 1: in like a bougee context when she was like on

993
00:59:12,560 --> 00:59:16,000
Speaker 1: the family estate back in back in Russia, or like

994
00:59:16,240 --> 00:59:18,800
Speaker 1: do we know anything about that? I don't know about

995
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:21,360
Speaker 1: how much fighting she's learned in her life. Um this

996
00:59:21,560 --> 00:59:23,760
Speaker 1: is There's going to be two moments in her life

997
00:59:23,880 --> 00:59:27,480
Speaker 1: that I'm aware of where she like reaches for a

998
00:59:27,600 --> 00:59:30,160
Speaker 1: sword and gets some sword involved in some fighting ship.

999
00:59:30,760 --> 00:59:33,720
Speaker 1: But I straight up don't know. Um, she's spends all

1000
00:59:33,720 --> 00:59:35,480
Speaker 1: of her time, like drinking and hanging out with sailors,

1001
00:59:35,520 --> 00:59:37,720
Speaker 1: so it wouldn't put it past her. And also she

1002
00:59:37,920 --> 00:59:42,960
Speaker 1: totally could have learned whatever the Russian air aristocratic fencing was.

1003
00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:46,880
Speaker 1: I have no idea. It's it's really great to hear

1004
00:59:47,120 --> 00:59:52,280
Speaker 1: a poet's voice from that moment, you know, yeah, totally, yeah,

1005
00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:54,760
Speaker 1: like talking about it, like my head was spinning deliciously,

1006
00:59:55,640 --> 00:59:58,320
Speaker 1: so yeah, and like she's like, oh, my comrade looks

1007
00:59:58,360 --> 01:00:02,120
Speaker 1: so beautiful right now. Right. So, her friend of a

1008
01:00:02,160 --> 01:00:04,600
Speaker 1: friend of hers is surrounded by cops and she's trying

1009
01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:07,240
Speaker 1: and he probably friends probably he is trying to hold

1010
01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:09,640
Speaker 1: them off with only a dagger. So she picks up

1011
01:00:09,640 --> 01:00:12,840
Speaker 1: a fucking sword and runs at the cops, saving her friend,

1012
01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:16,360
Speaker 1: and cut to black. I don't know what happened. I'm

1013
01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:18,520
Speaker 1: so annoyed. I don't know whether she fucked up a

1014
01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:21,240
Speaker 1: cop or she just scared the cops off. But by

1015
01:00:21,320 --> 01:00:24,800
Speaker 1: wielding a sword, she successfully defended her friend, who had

1016
01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:30,920
Speaker 1: only a dagger against forearm police officers and the students

1017
01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:34,600
Speaker 1: were outnumbered. They're driven back a ton or arrested. She

1018
01:00:34,760 --> 01:00:37,480
Speaker 1: flees through the alleys and the next day she flees

1019
01:00:37,520 --> 01:00:39,760
Speaker 1: the country on a steamer to France because the colonial

1020
01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:43,480
Speaker 1: police are extra alert for any foreigners helping the Muslim rebels.

1021
01:00:44,680 --> 01:00:46,840
Speaker 1: And that's where we're gonna leave it today. She's grown up,

1022
01:00:46,840 --> 01:00:49,360
Speaker 1: a radical, She's moved to Algeria, she stayed a radical,

1023
01:00:49,480 --> 01:00:51,520
Speaker 1: And when we come back, we'll get to see her

1024
01:00:51,720 --> 01:00:54,280
Speaker 1: more as history sees her as a vagabond, a mystic,

1025
01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:57,480
Speaker 1: a writer, and one complicated as fuck figure in the

1026
01:00:57,560 --> 01:00:59,800
Speaker 1: history of North Africa. Plus we get to meet her

1027
01:00:59,800 --> 01:01:06,400
Speaker 1: dog whoa Sophie smiled because I said dogs, I did.

1028
01:01:06,520 --> 01:01:10,760
Speaker 1: I smiled, really vague. That's exciting. Um do we do?

1029
01:01:10,880 --> 01:01:12,560
Speaker 1: We have anything we'd like to plug at the end

1030
01:01:12,640 --> 01:01:17,080
Speaker 1: here from either of you? Totally what you got going on?

1031
01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:20,480
Speaker 1: I have so many things going on. I'm doing a

1032
01:01:20,600 --> 01:01:24,320
Speaker 1: hilarious thing right now with my Patreon where I'm releasing

1033
01:01:24,720 --> 01:01:29,720
Speaker 1: a very sketchy recording of me playing Tom Waits covers

1034
01:01:29,840 --> 01:01:33,000
Speaker 1: every single Monday and then calling it the Waits Thon.

1035
01:01:34,120 --> 01:01:36,280
Speaker 1: But by the time this comes out, maybe The Waits

1036
01:01:36,360 --> 01:01:39,080
Speaker 1: Than will be all done. But anyway, my Patreon is cool,

1037
01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:42,160
Speaker 1: and um, I have a record coming out. I don't know,

1038
01:01:42,760 --> 01:01:46,280
Speaker 1: the summer, the fall. Who knows? It's hard to figure

1039
01:01:46,280 --> 01:01:50,360
Speaker 1: out with vinyl production, but that record will be called

1040
01:01:51,200 --> 01:01:55,760
Speaker 1: Haunted Mountain. And my wonderful friend Buck Meek, who is

1041
01:01:55,840 --> 01:01:59,240
Speaker 1: in the band Big Thief, is also releasing his solo record,

1042
01:01:59,560 --> 01:02:04,400
Speaker 1: also called Haunted Mountain because a bunch of songs together.

1043
01:02:05,840 --> 01:02:08,280
Speaker 1: Where can people follow you online so they can keep

1044
01:02:08,320 --> 01:02:11,600
Speaker 1: up with your music and other works? Thank you so

1045
01:02:11,760 --> 01:02:17,800
Speaker 1: much for asking. Uh Instagram, I'm Jolie Holland Music and uh,

1046
01:02:18,240 --> 01:02:22,120
Speaker 1: I think I'm the same on the Twitter, which I'm

1047
01:02:22,160 --> 01:02:26,800
Speaker 1: still at. Yeah, and Margaret, you have a book coming out,

1048
01:02:27,680 --> 01:02:31,560
Speaker 1: It's true you can still for another short moment of time,

1049
01:02:31,600 --> 01:02:33,360
Speaker 1: depending on when you're listening to this, pre order my

1050
01:02:33,480 --> 01:02:36,760
Speaker 1: upcoming book, Escape from Insul Island, which is published by

1051
01:02:36,800 --> 01:02:39,360
Speaker 1: Strangers and the Tangled Wilderness. And if you order it,

1052
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Speaker 1: it's a fun devella. If you have a short attention span,

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01:02:41,640 --> 01:02:45,080
Speaker 1: it's um you can read it in an afternoon. Novella

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01:02:45,160 --> 01:02:49,560
Speaker 1: means shortest book because I'm a writer who writes short things.

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01:02:50,840 --> 01:02:53,040
Speaker 1: And you can buy it and if you buy you

1056
01:02:53,080 --> 01:02:54,720
Speaker 1: get a poster and you can also follow me on

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01:02:54,800 --> 01:02:57,760
Speaker 1: the internet. I'm on Instagram at Margaret Killjoy and Twitter

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01:02:57,840 --> 01:03:03,320
Speaker 1: at Magpie Killjoy. What about you, Sophie. Oh, yeah, I

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01:03:03,360 --> 01:03:06,080
Speaker 1: know at cool Zone Media and all the things you

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01:03:06,160 --> 01:03:11,880
Speaker 1: can find out all the things from that, Margaret, Are

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01:03:12,000 --> 01:03:14,560
Speaker 1: you going to do an audiobook version of Escape from

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01:03:14,600 --> 01:03:18,120
Speaker 1: Insult Island? Yes, And I don't entirely know what the

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01:03:18,240 --> 01:03:21,560
Speaker 1: context will be of how it will be released, so

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01:03:22,560 --> 01:03:25,920
Speaker 1: I can't answer directly yet, but there will absolutely be

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01:03:25,960 --> 01:03:29,360
Speaker 1: an audio version of it. And I I consume most

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01:03:29,400 --> 01:03:32,479
Speaker 1: of my books by audio, like actually the history books

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01:03:32,480 --> 01:03:35,000
Speaker 1: I read for this book, I read well pacing around

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01:03:35,080 --> 01:03:37,080
Speaker 1: my living room when my dog paces with me. It's

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01:03:37,160 --> 01:03:41,000
Speaker 1: very nice. He started pacing with me recently. That's so nice.

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01:03:41,320 --> 01:03:45,360
Speaker 1: It's beautiful. But fiction I tend to read by listening

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01:03:45,440 --> 01:03:50,600
Speaker 1: to at this point. Yeah, and so we'll be back Wednesday.

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01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:56,880
Speaker 1: We are two who cool people Who Did? Cool Stuff

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01:03:56,960 --> 01:03:59,840
Speaker 1: is a production of cool Zone Media, but more podcast

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01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:02,680
Speaker 1: the Cool Zone Media. Visit our website cool zone Media

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01:04:02,800 --> 01:04:05,120
Speaker 1: dot com, or check us out on the I Heart

1076
01:04:05,160 --> 01:04:08,480
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 1: H