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Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of five,

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Speaker 1: an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah Hartunger.

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Speaker 1: I'm a mother of three, a practicing physician and blogger.

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Speaker 1: On the side, we are two working parents who love

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Speaker 1: our careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds.

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Speaker 1: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family,

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Speaker 1: and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping

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Speaker 1: out long term career goals. We want you to get

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Speaker 1: the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds.

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Speaker 1: This is Laura. This is episode two twenty. We will

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Speaker 1: be talking all things couple them in this episode. You know,

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Speaker 1: when people are raising families and building careers, time for

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Speaker 1: your partner might be somewhat limited. I was at a

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Speaker 1: lunch recently where a couple of us at the table

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Speaker 1: had children and a couple did not, and a little

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Speaker 1: a young lady across the tab able sort of asking,

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Speaker 1: you know, we were talking about how we're spending her time,

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Speaker 1: and she's like, oh, and your husband, what about that?

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Speaker 1: And the lady next to me like, oh, yes, that person.

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Speaker 1: So it can get like that occasionally, but we hope

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Speaker 1: not because it turns out that spending time together is

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Speaker 1: helpful for building a long term relationship. And it turns

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Speaker 1: out there's actually some interesting research into time use, finding

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Speaker 1: that while people are spending more time with their children

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Speaker 1: now than in the nineteen sixties, and that goes for

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Speaker 1: both men and women, interestingly enough, they are spending measurably

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Speaker 1: fewer hours per week with their spouses in loan adult

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Speaker 1: sort of time. So you know, there is a real

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Speaker 1: change going on there that people are spending more time

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Speaker 1: with their kids and less time with their partners, and

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Speaker 1: of course that can make it challenging to keep your

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Speaker 1: relationship going strong. So we're gonna be talking about ways

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Speaker 1: to keep your relationship feeling connected in the course of

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Speaker 1: the busy years. So, Sarah, a quick recap of how

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Speaker 1: you met your husband and how long you've been married. Yes,

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Speaker 1: so we met in two thousand and two, right in

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Speaker 1: the beginning of med school. We were dating by the

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Speaker 1: first test, and our first date was like labor day.

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Speaker 1: So we are coming up on next year will be

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Speaker 1: twenty years of knowing each other. That also means that

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Speaker 1: I was like basically a child when I met him.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it didn't seem that way then, But I'm like, wow,

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Speaker 1: I was twenty two. That is quite young, closer to

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Speaker 1: Anneville's current age than my current age, if that gives

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Speaker 1: you any perspective. And we got married in two thousand

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Speaker 1: and six, so we are fifteen years married. Yeah. So

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Speaker 1: we met in early two thousand and three in New York.

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Speaker 1: I was living there and went to a bar one

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Speaker 1: night to meet some friends and he was there with

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Speaker 1: them as a work event, and started dating shortly there after.

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Speaker 1: Got married in two thousand and four, So it has

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Speaker 1: been what does that make seventeen years since this fall?

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Speaker 1: And yeah, you have a family if people whove been

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Speaker 1: married a long time too, right, your parents have, Yes.

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Speaker 1: I was just going to comment that that was a

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Speaker 1: quick courtship on your Oh yeah, we got engaged in

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Speaker 1: our one year anniversary of meeting and then got married

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Speaker 1: about six months later. Oh, that's so cute. My parents

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Speaker 1: have been together. They're going to kill me. It was

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Speaker 1: either seventy four or seventy five. I always messed that up.

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Speaker 1: My husband was born in seventy four. I think it

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Speaker 1: was seventy four anyway, so that would that would give

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Speaker 1: them I think forty eight years, which is a lot

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Speaker 1: or forty seven years. And my husband's parents had got

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Speaker 1: married in nineteen sixty nine and they were nineteen years old.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's so cute what people did on then they're

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Speaker 1: still together. We celebrated their fiftieth anniversary and yeah, they

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Speaker 1: looked like not even fully grown on their p What

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Speaker 1: is you obviously met Josh when you were a baby,

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Speaker 1: as you said, But I mean when you do meet

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Speaker 1: people that young, and it's like you had to grow

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Speaker 1: up together. And I guess obviously some people grow up

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Speaker 1: not together then as they realized more of who they

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Speaker 1: are as adults. But it's really wonderful when people did

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Speaker 1: manage to go through that early adulthood and realize that

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Speaker 1: they do want to continue to be together. And it's interesting.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes I'll hear stories about, you know, divorce where people

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Speaker 1: will talk about how they were young when they met

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Speaker 1: and they just grew apart. But that's of course valid.

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Speaker 1: I feel though in our case to some extent, you know,

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Speaker 1: meeting so young, we've influenced each other's paths, Like we've

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Speaker 1: probably become very different people having been together for that

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Speaker 1: long than if we just met each other yesterday. So

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Speaker 1: I guess sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Thus far,

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Speaker 1: it has worked for us, which I'm grateful for. Yeah. Now,

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Speaker 1: my parents got married in nineteen sixty seven, so we

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Speaker 1: celebrated their fiftieth anniversary in twenty seventeen. We all rented

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Speaker 1: a beach house for a week and my brothers and

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Speaker 1: me and my brother's older brother's family. My mother in

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Speaker 1: law and father in law were married for a great

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Speaker 1: many years, over forty years until he passed away. So

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Speaker 1: you know, it's great to have those that model for

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Speaker 1: staying together for a very very long time. And even

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Speaker 1: my husband's siblings of all, they're all still together more

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Speaker 1: than fourteen years. My older brother has been married for

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Speaker 1: over twenty five years now. And I'm as we're recording this,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to go this weekend to my little brother's wedding,

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Speaker 1: which is also raciting. He's actually been already married for

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Speaker 1: about ten months, but they got had a COVID wedding

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Speaker 1: when it was by zoom, so that was slightly you know,

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Speaker 1: as you did. But now we're going to have the

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Speaker 1: celebration and that should be really exciting. We're very happy

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Speaker 1: to have her in the family. But you know, a

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Speaker 1: couple of time can be challenging, and we want to

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Speaker 1: stay together and have these sort of fifty year marriages

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Speaker 1: that last till you're dead. So how do we how

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Speaker 1: do we get to our ourselves to that point? You know,

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Speaker 1: I don't know how you guys feel. I feel like

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Speaker 1: we're in a high stress stage at the moment between

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Speaker 1: the five kids, including the toddler. The dog, which is

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Speaker 1: more of a source of stress than perhaps other people

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Speaker 1: have experienced a dog to be. But you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: not much of a dog. Personal'll put that out there.

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Speaker 1: So it's been an adjustment for me. Career stuff as usual,

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Speaker 1: the home renovation, putting a home on a market. It's

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Speaker 1: just a lot of things, you know, And I mean

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Speaker 1: feel very lucky that we have good systems in place

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Speaker 1: where stuff happens and it's not a disaster. Like you know,

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Speaker 1: we didn't have our van for ten days because our

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Speaker 1: van was hit in the target parking lot, causing some

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Speaker 1: serious damage to it. We had our you know, as

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Speaker 1: we're getting the house ready to put on the market,

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Speaker 1: had the hurricane come through, and you had a leak

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Speaker 1: associated with that that we just got fixed, you know,

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Speaker 1: But that was involved a lot of work with that

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Speaker 1: and you know, great, when you're roof repair run thousands

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Speaker 1: of dollars more than you originally anticipated it would run

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Speaker 1: these sorts of things. It's just like constant stress, right,

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Speaker 1: And so you know, I love my husband dearly, but

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Speaker 1: it's like, when all this is building up, it can

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Speaker 1: be hard to be in a good mood with each other.

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Speaker 1: We try it. But I actually read a book a

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Speaker 1: couple of years ago that I thought had an interesting

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Speaker 1: take on this, which is that it helps to just

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Speaker 1: recognize that these stressful periods are not going to be

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Speaker 1: the best times of your marriage. That if you hold

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Speaker 1: out the expectation that they are like, then you'll just

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Speaker 1: be bitterly disappointed, which adds to the trouble. But if

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Speaker 1: you know that this is the years where you're sort

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Speaker 1: of like, okay, we're just getting through and when good

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Speaker 1: things happen, if we're still enjoying each other, then that's

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Speaker 1: that's good. You know, we're hanging on, and there's something

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Speaker 1: just to be said for that. So not to imply

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Speaker 1: that things are in any way troubled, but you know,

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Speaker 1: I found that very comforting that, you know, I like,

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Speaker 1: all if the expectation is only that you are hanging

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Speaker 1: on and in fact, many things are going really quite

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Speaker 1: well for us, then we're good. I mean, what do

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Speaker 1: you think are you Are you guys in a particularly

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Speaker 1: stressful time or now that you don't have a toddler anymore,

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Speaker 1: is it it is a little easier. Don't get me wrong.

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Speaker 1: I mean, Genevieve still knows how to throw a tantrum.

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Speaker 1: That seems like a toddler sometimes, so it's not like

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Speaker 1: we're on easy street. I think one thing that has

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Speaker 1: helped us is that if there's a particular time of

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Speaker 1: day or routine that's a pain point, really taking a

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Speaker 1: deep dive into what makes it suck and being very

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Speaker 1: explicit about whose job is whose and just dissecting it.

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Speaker 1: And I feel like we spent a long time on

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Speaker 1: like bedtime, and then we spend a long time in mornings,

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Speaker 1: and sometimes you have to circle back to each of them.

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Speaker 1: I feel like we are and it also may be

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Speaker 1: the ages of our kids and then being able to

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Speaker 1: do more things. We're in a somewhat less stressful phase

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Speaker 1: right now. Like I feel like we have a good

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Speaker 1: amount of all the kids going to the same school

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Speaker 1: definitely helps one drop off. Having like enough backup childcare

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Speaker 1: absolutely helps, and I think we've gotten a little bit

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Speaker 1: better at like I will just say to him, you

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Speaker 1: don't like when I remind you that we have to

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Speaker 1: leave in five minutes ten times, So I'm telling you

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Speaker 1: right now that it's like seven fifty five and you

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Speaker 1: have to leave it eight oh five, and if you

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Speaker 1: take the kids to school late, you're gonna have to

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Speaker 1: walk them to the office and whatever. And then usually

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Speaker 1: that's like then I can like disconnect, and he can

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Speaker 1: usually succeed because I think when he knows he's not

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Speaker 1: gonna get any prodding, then he's like, oh, yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: so and probably the same thing goes to me. It's

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Speaker 1: just harder to identify my own things that I struggle with.

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Speaker 1: Like maybe probably sometimes I would try to like fit

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Speaker 1: in a shower after a workout, like in a timeframe

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Speaker 1: that didn't really exist. And now I've gotten more like

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Speaker 1: realistic about what that looks like. But it took like

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Speaker 1: really like deep diving into like if six forty five

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Speaker 1: to seven fifteen is a very bad phase, how can

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Speaker 1: I minute by minute make it less? So doing that

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Speaker 1: and then like looking at bedtime, that kind of a

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Speaker 1: thing has has I think helped make the moments that

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Speaker 1: can kind of make or break your days sometimes feel

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Speaker 1: a little bit better and that helps our relationship. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: definitely examining the pain points and seeing what you can

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Speaker 1: do to solve them. Our morning is like currently one

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Speaker 1: long pain point. But is that sure? What could be

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Speaker 1: done about that? Until we don't have three children and

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Speaker 1: four children in three different schools that have entirely different

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Speaker 1: start times, not much to be done about that at

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Speaker 1: the moment. Hopefully we'll figure something out. So one of

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Speaker 1: the rules from Tranquility by Tuesday, which is the book

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Speaker 1: I'm writing now, is three times a week is a habit.

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Speaker 1: And I actually profile a couple that had been trying

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Speaker 1: to figure out how to have more couple time, and

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Speaker 1: they had in the past had it because they had

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Speaker 1: very young children who went to bed at like seven thirty,

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Speaker 1: and if they didn't go to bed till let's say

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Speaker 1: ten thirty, is like they were both there from seven

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Speaker 1: thirty to ten thirty, even if they weren't interacting the

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Speaker 1: whole time, It's just they had some element of time

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Speaker 1: that was just built into their day. And of course

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Speaker 1: then children grow up as children do. They were you know,

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Speaker 1: staying up later that time disappeared, and plus some workshops

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Speaker 1: schedule shifted, so people were starting to work earlier, and

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Speaker 1: so as like the evening went from three hours that

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Speaker 1: you could potentially have together to like five minutes basically,

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Speaker 1: and so it just was no longer an option. And

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Speaker 1: so they were trying to figure out how to you know,

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Speaker 1: not be like ships passing in the night. And so

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Speaker 1: they identified three specific times of the week that it

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Speaker 1: worked for them to have even just like a fifteen

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Speaker 1: minute conversation or to sit together and do something that's

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Speaker 1: not involving the kids. And so that might be helpful

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Speaker 1: for people to think about, are there three moments within

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Speaker 1: the week that you can consciously connect in whatever way

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Speaker 1: that is. But you know, it might be sitting together

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Speaker 1: and having a drink after the kids go to bed,

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Speaker 1: even if it's not that much time. It could be

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Speaker 1: that you, you know, walk your dog to if that's

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Speaker 1: what you have. It could be that you sit on

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Speaker 1: the porch together at a certain time when the kids

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Speaker 1: are occupied, or you know that one day your sitter

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Speaker 1: stays late for you know, thirty minutes, or if you

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Speaker 1: do have older kids, maybe we can leave them home

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Speaker 1: alone and you go quickly out to do something for

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Speaker 1: just even forty five minutes that go for a run

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Speaker 1: together could be an option, but figuring out where that

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Speaker 1: can happen can can be really helpful for people. So Sarah,

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Speaker 1: you're I mean, what are what are your sort of

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Speaker 1: because you also don't have really weekday evening times together. No, Well,

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Speaker 1: I will say, we are continuing to work on bedtime,

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Speaker 1: and when we get the kids to at least read

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Speaker 1: in bed, it doesn't necessarily lend to like super private time,

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Speaker 1: but at least we could like watch a show in bed,

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Speaker 1: which we actually got to do on Sunday night. It

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Speaker 1: was like a miracle. So I do think that like

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Speaker 1: again really honing in on those rooms, if we make

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Speaker 1: it so that like the kids know after a certain

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Speaker 1: time they're reading, that will lengthen our window. And even

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Speaker 1: if it's not every day, because it's not feasible to

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Speaker 1: do that every day, but if they know, let's say,

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Speaker 1: like Sunday is for extra rest, then we might be

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Speaker 1: able to carve some time there. It is really really

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Speaker 1: hard though, and I think for us we've made more

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Speaker 1: use of like babysitters and mini trips and stuff. Let's

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Speaker 1: take a quick break and then maybe we can talk

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Speaker 1: more about like the kind of date night aspects of things. Well,

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Speaker 1: we are back talking all things couple them, how busy

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Speaker 1: people can make time for their partners during those years

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Speaker 1: when it seems like every minute is spoken for. So

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Speaker 1: when you guys do date nights, what do you actually do?

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Speaker 1: We've been trying to sort of think past the dinner out.

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Speaker 1: Not that there's anything wrong with a dinner out, but

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Speaker 1: it doesn't always always work for evening time. So what

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Speaker 1: have you been up to? So, to be fair, we

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Speaker 1: didn't do date night for like all of the pandemic recently,

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Speaker 1: but you know, back in the before times and now

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Speaker 1: what we're sort of starting again a bit. We did

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Speaker 1: go out to dinner the other day with our friends,

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Speaker 1: which you know is social and fun. And we did

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Speaker 1: this beautiful outdoor place. It's called Yacht in Fort Lauderdale.

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Speaker 1: Yot lovely anyway, So that's, you know, obvious but fun.

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Speaker 1: We used to have a parenting book club that was

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Speaker 1: like kind of a social thing that we would do

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Speaker 1: together with friends at different people's houses and we would

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Speaker 1: discuss some sort of like kid related topic. But we

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Speaker 1: didn't always you know, spend much time on that. We've

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Speaker 1: gone to Miami Heat games. Before we I used to

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Speaker 1: go to movies, so we were actually getting really into

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Speaker 1: going to movies right before the pandemic hit. I would

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Speaker 1: totally I have friends that do like a nighttime yoga

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Speaker 1: class together. I don't know if I could convince Josh,

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Speaker 1: but I would totally be into that. I've also had

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Speaker 1: friends that talked about like massage dates, like, oh, like

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Speaker 1: go get a massage at like five pm or something

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Speaker 1: and then like head out to dinner afterward or something.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean, oh, and of super mundane one.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes if there's like a boring thing we have to buy,

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Speaker 1: it could be really fun to do that as a

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Speaker 1: date night. I like have fond memories of like going

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Speaker 1: mattress shopping. Mattress shopping. I remember we were just so

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Speaker 1: I think Genevieve was like one years old or like

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Speaker 1: some hard age. We were like so giddy to leave

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Speaker 1: the house and like go to like mattress stores and

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Speaker 1: try out some totally get it, and then I think

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Speaker 1: it out like ordering a Casper mattress. Of course, of course,

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Speaker 1: so yeah, we we are going to be doing a

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Speaker 1: double art museum date on an upcoming Friday. The one

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Speaker 1: that we're going to closes at five, so that requires

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Speaker 1: an early day, and so would block the calendar from

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Speaker 1: like three thirty on Friday afternoon, go there and then

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Speaker 1: we will, you know, go to the second one right afterwards,

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Speaker 1: the one that has later hours, and so that you know,

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Speaker 1: would be three thirty to seven thirty. But it's something

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Speaker 1: that would be definitely not going to do with the kids.

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Speaker 1: They'd be like one museum is bad enough, What do

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Speaker 1: you mean I'm going to two? So yeah, that's it

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Speaker 1: going to be hopefully a good one. You know, some

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Speaker 1: couples come up with some sort of hobby they can

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Speaker 1: do together, like you said the yoga class. I've definitely

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Speaker 1: heard of a few people who have hired trainers who

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Speaker 1: come to their house and if there's a time that

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Speaker 1: the two of you could do, like let's say you

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Speaker 1: start work at nine if you're bit working from home,

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Speaker 1: and maybe have your sitter come at eight or something,

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Speaker 1: and then you have that hour, they could do a

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Speaker 1: training session, forty five minute training session the chower. So

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Speaker 1: that could be something that people do or a hobby.

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Speaker 1: My parents do crossword puzzles together. It's very cute. So

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Speaker 1: nobody likes to do puzzles with me, but I'm throwing

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Speaker 1: that so maybe that's something somebody else would want to do.

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Speaker 1: Like literally nobody else in my house wants to do

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Speaker 1: my puzzles, but whatever. We had a crossword phase that

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Speaker 1: ended way before, but it was fun. It was definitely fun.

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Speaker 1: And then watching TV shows together. And by the way,

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Speaker 1: this can be even fun when it's a little bit asynchronous,

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Speaker 1: so I have to admit sometimes it could be hard

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Speaker 1: to find that time when I'm still like awake enough

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Speaker 1: to actually watch a show when he's here. And so

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Speaker 1: in the last episode of Best of Both World I

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Speaker 1: mentioned Loving White Lotus, Well, we watched it together but apart,

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Speaker 1: like we were kind of like, okay, I'm on episode three,

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Speaker 1: and then he would catch up and watch it, and

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Speaker 1: we watched it pretty quickly, but I don't think we

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Speaker 1: saw any of it actually together together. But the fact

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Speaker 1: that we were both watching it like concurrently kind of

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Speaker 1: meant we could talk about it and even that was

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Speaker 1: kind of fun, and that led us to start watching

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Speaker 1: another one together. But not that I'm saying like that,

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Speaker 1: it really counts as time together when you're watching TV diysynchronously,

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Speaker 1: but you know, if you were in a long distance

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Speaker 1: kind of a situation, or you know, maybe maybe your

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Speaker 1: husband's on a business trip. Netflix does have this cute

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Speaker 1: thing where you can like watch like simultaneously and then

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Speaker 1: like text each other while it's happening. So that could

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Speaker 1: be kind of fun. Sure, why not? Wait? Many years

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Speaker 1: ago we watched the Jon Stewart The Daily Show. But

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Speaker 1: when that stopped, we find another one that we didn't

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Speaker 1: find obnoxious. But sometimes we watch, you know, football together.

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Speaker 1: We watch Texas A and M football and our family

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Speaker 1: and there's a tradition that when the team scores, you

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Speaker 1: kiss you're sweetie who's there? So if there's a touchdown,

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Speaker 1: we're supposed to kiss. They're not really doing that well

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Speaker 1: this year, so there's less kissing. I hope that there's

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Speaker 1: if you're into that, you want to have a highest

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Speaker 1: scoring team, but you know, different years don't work out

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Speaker 1: as well. Their quarterback was injured. It is so funny.

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Speaker 1: And then another thing that we like to do together

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Speaker 1: that's like kind of maybe boring or business like is

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Speaker 1: just like planning. So like we have taken some dinner

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Speaker 1: dates where we just sit there and like plan the

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Speaker 1: next few months and what we want to do long

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Speaker 1: term travel planning. And then every quarter we like do

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Speaker 1: a little mini financial plan where we look at all

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Speaker 1: of our accounts, see where we are, see how if

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Speaker 1: we earned or lost since the last quarter, and what's

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Speaker 1: going on, and make any adjustments. And I actually find

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Speaker 1: it really kind of fun because it's more like future focus, Like, okay,

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Speaker 1: we always do a little even though I have no

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Speaker 1: real desire to retire early, we like to complete this

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Speaker 1: like fire calculator every time, so we're like, this is

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Speaker 1: how long until I don't really need to work? And

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Speaker 1: it's voluntary. Well that could be fun. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: very future focused. It's good about talking about the future

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Speaker 1: that exists. That's good. I like that I do. We

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Speaker 1: don't really do that, but you know, maybe someday we will.

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Speaker 1: Could be fun. But you know, as part of people

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Speaker 1: are listening to like, well, we don't have a hobby

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Speaker 1: we could do together. I think it also is sometimes

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Speaker 1: helpful to realize that the other person doesn't actually have

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Speaker 1: to meet like all your needs, like either for fun

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Speaker 1: or you're all your emotional needs. Either. That's what friends

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Speaker 1: and family and you know, a therapist if you want

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Speaker 1: one or need one that could be a great outlet

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Speaker 1: for those things that you don't necessarily want to dump

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Speaker 1: all of them on your partner. You know you can.

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Speaker 1: We certainly had things we tried to do together that

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Speaker 1: just didn't work out, usually because of me not wanting

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Speaker 1: to do it. So I learned to scuba dive when

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Speaker 1: we were first dating. I got certified. I realized I

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Speaker 1: hated it, so that was the end of that. We

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Speaker 1: you know, I tried to learn skiing. I'm not really

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Speaker 1: a big fan of being cold, which it turns out

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Speaker 1: you're cold and diving, you're cold and skiing, and then

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Speaker 1: you know, I don't like being cold, So I'm all

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Speaker 1: of these things just I didn't like. And so fortunately,

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Speaker 1: you know, my husband has other people he can do

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Speaker 1: these with. I mean, so diving now, our twelve year

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Speaker 1: old Sam is certified, so the two of them, when

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Speaker 1: we go on vacations somewhere tropical, he can, the two

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Speaker 1: of them can dive together and go skiing often with

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Speaker 1: his brother. They do at least one weekend a year

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Speaker 1: where they go skiing. So there's other people who can

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Speaker 1: do some of these things, and even just I'm not

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Speaker 1: much of a movie person. And so the upside of

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Speaker 1: having older children is now those you know, he's got

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Speaker 1: a reason like, oh I didn't I didn't really want

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Speaker 1: to go see something with like a cultural phenomenon like

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Speaker 1: you know, Avengers in Game, Like I didn't want to

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Speaker 1: go see something like that. And now there's multiple children

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Speaker 1: who would want to go see Avengers in Game. And

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Speaker 1: so back when that happened like two years ago. Sorry,

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Speaker 1: that's such a dated reference, but a lot of people

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Speaker 1: aren't going to movies now, so it wasn't going to

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Speaker 1: be a current one that I could pull up as

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Speaker 1: everyone had to see. But yeah, so it's sometimes you

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Speaker 1: have to sort of acknowledge that your spouse isn't really

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Speaker 1: or they might do stuff, but they might not really

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Speaker 1: want to And if you can find somebody else who

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Speaker 1: is happy to do it with you, maybe you can

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Speaker 1: find other things that you and your spouse love to

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Speaker 1: do together and just let it go on the things

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Speaker 1: that they don't. Yeah, I wouldn't want to see that

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Speaker 1: movie either, So there you go have, you know, cartoon

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Speaker 1: dumb cartoon movies the reason to bring the kids. So

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Speaker 1: we wanted to spend a little extra time on this

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Speaker 1: week's question just because it was a bit of a doozy,

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Speaker 1: but so did you want me to Yeah, I think

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Speaker 1: summarize it, don't read it, and definitely leave any details out,

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Speaker 1: leave any details out. So this was, yeah, a bit,

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Speaker 1: a bit of a long one. It comes from a

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Speaker 1: listener who has a big job, has two young children,

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Speaker 1: in her late thirties, so probably very typical of all

432
00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:27,800
Speaker 1: our listeners. She says. Her closest friends are very similar,

433
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:32,960
Speaker 1: highly educated, highly intelligent, married women with young children. She says,

434
00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:35,280
Speaker 1: so many of her friends have wound up in very

435
00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:40,679
Speaker 1: traditional relationships and have defaulted too very traditional gender roles,

436
00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:44,560
Speaker 1: very deeply asymmetric division of labor. And if there are

437
00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:49,439
Speaker 1: two careers, his has jolted forward and hers has very

438
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:53,760
Speaker 1: much slowed or in many cases stopped altogether. And she says,

439
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:55,560
Speaker 1: many of these women she's known for a long time.

440
00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:59,520
Speaker 1: They seem very ambitious at the beginning, and so the

441
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:04,520
Speaker 1: thing that is bothering her is that they sort of

442
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,119
Speaker 1: brush it off. That you know, people make excuses, she says,

443
00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:12,160
Speaker 1: for their husband's being not involved. You know, the pandemic

444
00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:15,600
Speaker 1: has brought this even more into stark relief. Asymmetry in

445
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,960
Speaker 1: childcare a household duties. She says, what annoys me most

446
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:20,639
Speaker 1: is that their wives so often make excuse for all

447
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:22,520
Speaker 1: the above. He earns more than me, so it makes

448
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:24,560
Speaker 1: sense for me to care for the kids. Or he

449
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:26,800
Speaker 1: hasn't had much practice looking after more than one kid

450
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:29,159
Speaker 1: at a time, Or he's so stressed with work that

451
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:31,479
Speaker 1: he needs to go out cycling for a bazillion hours

452
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,160
Speaker 1: for his own well being, he needs a good night's

453
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:37,000
Speaker 1: sleep so he can go to work fresh. She accepts

454
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:40,119
Speaker 1: that not everyone needs to be highly ambitious or a

455
00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:45,359
Speaker 1: career driven. But it's not simply of you know, whether

456
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:47,159
Speaker 1: somebody is in a big job or not. It's just

457
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:49,760
Speaker 1: why is this split as it is? And she's saying

458
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,720
Speaker 1: she has a more even split, But she's wondering, is

459
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:55,400
Speaker 1: this something that can you know? Should she have these

460
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:59,200
Speaker 1: people in her lifelong term when they have such different

461
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:03,280
Speaker 1: approaches to things. She's worried about how they are passing

462
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 1: along the message to the next generation. We have two

463
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:09,439
Speaker 1: daughters we are trying to raise in a way that

464
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:11,639
Speaker 1: it affirms their worth as individuals and the right to

465
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,480
Speaker 1: have fulfilling, equal relationships. And so I'm distressed that my

466
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 1: friend's kids are being raised in a way that reinforces

467
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:22,399
Speaker 1: the old gender stereotype. So I guess it's just a

468
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's even a question. It's just

469
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:28,760
Speaker 1: a complaint about the state of the world. Those are

470
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:32,639
Speaker 1: all valid thoughts, but my first instinct is that you know,

471
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:36,160
Speaker 1: none of us get to decide how others live. And

472
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,199
Speaker 1: they may be happy, I mean, if they're not and

473
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 1: they want advice for how to even things out, or

474
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,680
Speaker 1: you might even talk to them about how nice it is.

475
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,199
Speaker 1: You know, if there's a specific instance where you're so

476
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 1: grateful that your husband is an equal partner, I don't

477
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 1: think there's anything wrong with sharing that when it makes sense.

478
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:59,359
Speaker 1: But you know, we can't control how other people parent.

479
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:04,160
Speaker 1: We can't control what other's division of labor are. Maybe

480
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:07,199
Speaker 1: you know there's some woman out there that's, you know,

481
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 1: very much leading unconventional role and it's just not in

482
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:14,199
Speaker 1: your friend group yet that is just as asymmetrical, and

483
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,200
Speaker 1: I think that's okay if that's right for each family.

484
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,159
Speaker 1: And maybe the friends that you have happen to be

485
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 1: content with a status quo, I mean, maybe they're not.

486
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 1: That might be something you could kind of subtly try

487
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 1: to figure out and if they're not, hey tell them

488
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,159
Speaker 1: to listen to our podcast and join our Patreon and

489
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,399
Speaker 1: we will support them. But I also think, like to

490
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:36,760
Speaker 1: some extent, like, yeah, my first thought is just you

491
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 1: probably want to add some friends to your circle. I

492
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:40,639
Speaker 1: don't think that means you have to let go of

493
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,160
Speaker 1: the friends who don't necessarily do things exactly the way

494
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 1: you do, but that you're not going to be a

495
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:51,720
Speaker 1: change agent here and keep your friendship. Yeah, I think

496
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:53,719
Speaker 1: there's I mean, there's two questions here. I mean one,

497
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,199
Speaker 1: if we're just looking at the friendship, I mean, you

498
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 1: have to it's really hard to have a friendship if

499
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:01,720
Speaker 1: you are constantly judging someone. So you either just have

500
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 1: to let it go and decide that that is their

501
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 1: life and you have yours, and it's as long as

502
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:08,680
Speaker 1: you are happy with yours that it doesn't really matter

503
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 1: what they do, as long as they are not in

504
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,040
Speaker 1: a situation that's you know, abusive or anything like that.

505
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:15,560
Speaker 1: If it's just different than what your setup is, oh well,

506
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:17,600
Speaker 1: you know you can decide are you happy to have

507
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:19,879
Speaker 1: this person in your life or are you not? But

508
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 1: if you are happy to have them in your life,

509
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 1: then you can't really continue a friendship and be you know,

510
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:30,680
Speaker 1: constantly trying to change their situation. Is there an issue

511
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:35,639
Speaker 1: for a great many people that are you know, ambitious

512
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 1: women who are then derailed by a family situation where

513
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 1: a partner has just decided that it is not their

514
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 1: thing to be an equal partner. Yes, And I think

515
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:52,120
Speaker 1: it's worth those women asking if that is the example

516
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 1: they want to set for their daughters. I think it's

517
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,119
Speaker 1: worth the men and those families asking if this is

518
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:00,280
Speaker 1: the example they want to set for their daughter. Is

519
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,679
Speaker 1: this what they would like their daughters to wind up

520
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:07,439
Speaker 1: in as a situation, And in many cases they might not.

521
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 1: And so that's something that everyone can acknowledge that children

522
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 1: learn from what we show. You know, one of the

523
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:22,880
Speaker 1: reasons I am very interested in still doing things professionally

524
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,679
Speaker 1: is that I want my daughter to see that it

525
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 1: is quite possible to raise children and to have a

526
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:32,920
Speaker 1: career that you care about. It is very very important

527
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 1: me that she see that. And so regardless of whether

528
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 1: I had to work or don't have to work, I

529
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 1: want to because I want to, and because also I

530
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:46,160
Speaker 1: want her to know that that's absolutely as valid for

531
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 1: women to do as for men to do. You did

532
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 1: I wish everyone felt that way, of course, but I

533
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 1: can't make everyone feel that way. So that's my take

534
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 1: on that. And I think your kids are going to

535
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,399
Speaker 1: pay very much less attention to you, know, if you're

536
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 1: concerned that what your friends are doing are going to

537
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 1: rub off on your kids, obviously the most salient example

538
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,680
Speaker 1: to your own kids is going to be you, by far.

539
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 1: I mean, Genevieve says she's going to be a doctor,

540
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,479
Speaker 1: and that's because she sees me doing it and her

541
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 1: dad doing it, but also like that's a normal thing

542
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 1: to do, and I guess I don't know, like it

543
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,160
Speaker 1: didn't even cross her mind that that was a gender thing.

544
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 1: We got her pink scrubs for Halloween, and now she's

545
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 1: like decided, and I think it's because she has that

546
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,920
Speaker 1: example already, you know, in her life. So the people

547
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:31,880
Speaker 1: who are going to be paying the most close attention

548
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:34,639
Speaker 1: your kids are going to pay attention to you. So

549
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,160
Speaker 1: I guess if that's a concern, I wouldn't worry about

550
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 1: it too much. And it can be a point of

551
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 1: conversation like that could help you bring up hey, like

552
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 1: to your daughter, like would you want to live like that?

553
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:46,960
Speaker 1: Do you want to look for a partner that's like

554
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,960
Speaker 1: dad and who's awesome and lets me enjoy my career

555
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 1: and my family. I think very often people do look

556
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 1: for partners who have some element of the parents that

557
00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 1: they experienced as well. It is highly unlikely that if

558
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 1: your daughter has experienced a father who is deeply involved

559
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 1: in her life, that she will tolerate anyone who doesn't

560
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 1: have that sort of set up in that mindset, because

561
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 1: it just won't even make sense to her. She'd be like, well, like,

562
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 1: it just won't make sense, and so she will see

563
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 1: it as like a personality problem of somebody, So she

564
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 1: wouldn't even want to be with that person. And so

565
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 1: I think you know you Again, as Sarah was saying,

566
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 1: you provide the most salient example you can talk about

567
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:33,479
Speaker 1: these things. But you know, if you want to have

568
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 1: friendships with people who live differently, you can probably do

569
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 1: so without it causing you know, your daughter to question

570
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 1: everything she's seeing at home. Well, we're also all for

571
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 1: you adding more friends that are living that's true ones.

572
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 1: So if all your friends are, you know, in a

573
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 1: different sort of life circumstances than you, it would very

574
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 1: much help to find some other friends who are in

575
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 1: the same life circumstance with you. So again, one of

576
00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 1: the reasons we, you know, are create a community of

577
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 1: out and best of both worlds. As we know that

578
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 1: a lot of women may be around groups of other

579
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 1: families in different situations, and so if you are looking

580
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 1: to connect with women who are in professional careers and

581
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 1: have young kids and are doing both and enjoying both,

582
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 1: you know, keep following us. We'll bring you all together,

583
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 1: all right. So our love of the week Sarah, Real quick?

584
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 1: I did we even write these down? I don't know

585
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 1: that I did. Do you have something for this week?

586
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 1: Let's see? Yes, okay, even though this is not the

587
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 1: fall episode. I bought a Helm's tooth pattern cloth pencil case.

588
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 1: It's very luxurious looking and every time I look at

589
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 1: it, it it just has a very cozy, fall classy look

590
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 1: to it. It's by the brand Notique and ot Iq,

591
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 1: and I love it. Oh that's great. Well, I'm going

592
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 1: to sing the praises of these giant plastic bins that

593
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:54,239
Speaker 1: we have been cleaning out the house, for getting our

594
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 1: photos taken, for listing the house. And it's impossible, and

595
00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 1: you're living in a house to like get rid of

596
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 1: everything that would not want, you know, wouldn't want to

597
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 1: have in a real estate photo, even something like a

598
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 1: waste basket, like you have to have one, but like

599
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 1: you don't want to photograph it. So anyway, we have

600
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 1: been putting a lot of the kids' books and toys

601
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 1: and various things in these bins, and then the bins

602
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 1: can just like be moved out of the room for

603
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 1: the photos or they can just be like stacked over

604
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 1: to the side for you know, if people were looking

605
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 1: at the house or something. And we were never going

606
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:24,959
Speaker 1: to be able to get rid of all the clutter

607
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 1: ahead of the next few weeks. But we have these

608
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 1: giant plastic bins, and that is the solution that we

609
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 1: were having to go with. So I'm loving my giant

610
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 1: plastic bins. Love it all right. Well, this is some

611
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:42,120
Speaker 1: best of both worlds. So we've been mostly talking couples

612
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 1: and how to have time to gather, things you can

613
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 1: do to make sure that spending time together is still

614
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 1: a part of your relationship even through the busy years.

615
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 1: We will be back next week with more on making

616
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 1: work and life fit together. Thanks for listening. You can

617
00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 1: find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com. Are at

618
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 1: the Underscore shoe Box on Instagram and you can find

619
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 1: me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has been

620
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 1: the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us next

621
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,719
Speaker 1: time for more on making work and life work together