Speaker 1: Look for your children's eyes and you will discover the
Speaker 1: true magic of a forest. Find a forest near you
Speaker 1: and start exploring it. Discover the Forest dot Org. Brought
Speaker 1: to you by the United States Forest Service and the
Speaker 1: ad Council. The art world it is essentially a money
Speaker 1: laundering business. The best fakes are still hanging on people's walls.
Speaker 1: You know they don't even know or suspect that their fakes.
Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and this is a podcast about deception, greed,
Speaker 1: and forgery in the art world. I just walked in
Speaker 1: and saw this great red painting presuming to be a Rothko.
Speaker 1: Of course, art forgeries only happen because there's money to
Speaker 1: be made, a lot of money. I'm listening to how
Speaker 1: what they're paying for these things. It was an incredible
Speaker 1: mans of money. You knew the painting was fake. Um
Speaker 1: Listen to Art Fraud on the I Heart Radio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi. I'm
Speaker 1: Glory Adam, host of Well Read Black Girl. Each week
Speaker 1: we journey together through the cultural moment where art, culture
Speaker 1: and literature collide and pay homage to the women whose
Speaker 1: books we grew up reading. It's a literary kickback. You
Speaker 1: never knew you needed. Listen to a well read black
Speaker 1: girl on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. My name is Matt Son.
Speaker 1: I was a camera operator. I was a director of photography,
Speaker 1: and I was a director of the TV show of
Speaker 1: the Office. Hello one and all, thank you for joining
Speaker 1: me on another episode of the Office Deep Dive. It
Speaker 1: is so great to have you here. I am your host,
Speaker 1: Brian baum Gartner. Now today we are diving deeper into
Speaker 1: our Camera as Character mini series with a conversation with
Speaker 1: my dear, dear friend, Matt Son. Matt was hired by
Speaker 1: Randall Einhorn as his camera operator starting in season one,
Speaker 1: and then Matt went on to replace Randall as our
Speaker 1: director of photography, and then eventually, just like Randall, became
Speaker 1: a big time director. In fact, he's so big. I
Speaker 1: had to travel to New York to conduct this interview,
Speaker 1: which I would not do for just anyone. Let's be clear,
Speaker 1: and speaking of New York, in my conversation with John Krasinski,
Speaker 1: who I also spoke to in New York, I explained
Speaker 1: that Matt and I had a very special relationship on
Speaker 1: set as I told John, I thought of it like
Speaker 1: a quarterback and a wide receiver, where Matt would give
Speaker 1: me a nod and I'd know he was going to
Speaker 1: toss the camera to me for a button or a
Speaker 1: look of some kind. And when I told John this,
Speaker 1: as you may recall, John ripped me apart for saying that.
Speaker 1: But let's just say in this interview, I get fully vindicated.
Speaker 1: So take that, Mr Krasinski. Um. In addition to being
Speaker 1: the quarterback to my wide receiver, Matt is an all
Speaker 1: around fantastic guy, and he shared so many wonderful insights
Speaker 1: about what made our show truly special. So sit back
Speaker 1: and enjoy my conversation with the very wise, always correct,
Speaker 1: never wrong John matt Son. Bubble and Squeak. I love it.
Speaker 1: Bubble and Squeak, Bubble and Squeaker Cookie every month left
Speaker 1: over from the Nabby. Oh there he is. I was
Speaker 1: just reading your text messages. Are you? Oh you you
Speaker 1: look way way less haggard than Randle Ranble's got this full,
Speaker 1: beautiful thing. It's like it's he's got I think he's
Speaker 1: trying to emulate Larry Charles right with the beard. No,
Speaker 1: you look very I mean, look, you've got a directing. Actually,
Speaker 1: I remember that about you. That was well, that was
Speaker 1: my difference. Yeah, when on set you used to change wardrobe.
Speaker 1: Well for my directing, when you directed, you would dress up.
Speaker 1: That was your signature thing. Well, no, it was so
Speaker 1: people would look at me a little differently than the
Speaker 1: jeans and the because I would get judged. Man. No,
Speaker 1: I mean you never were Paul Feig though, of course not. Um,
Speaker 1: are you comfortable? Are you you need to? I noticed
Speaker 1: it just jumping right into this are we because it
Speaker 1: doesn't seem like you want just to say hello? I
Speaker 1: know we're saying hello. There's nothing, there's nothing, No one
Speaker 1: has any control over us. Yeah. Um, it's very good
Speaker 1: to see you, as always you. It's been too long,
Speaker 1: that's that's usually the case these days. I saw John Salada.
Speaker 1: We I talked with her last week in Los Angeles.
Speaker 1: Oh did you interview her? And I love her, love
Speaker 1: her and we keep in touch. So do you? Yeah? Oh,
Speaker 1: good for you. Well, it's interesting because Jen and my
Speaker 1: daughter have a relationship because my daughter is now thirteen.
Speaker 1: Both my kids were born during our time on the office.
Speaker 1: I know, what was it that, Yeah, yeah, yeah, So
Speaker 1: she's she's a big fan of the show. Now it's
Speaker 1: it's so funny because she's both my kids. My my
Speaker 1: son has just started watching it and and so both
Speaker 1: of them are huge fans and and it was great
Speaker 1: to watch her see the show for the first time
Speaker 1: because she was like, wait, it's Mindy, it's it's b J,
Speaker 1: it's you know, all the people that were over for
Speaker 1: our Halloween parties and that she had no concept of.
Speaker 1: And then she was like, wait, I didn't know. I
Speaker 1: didn't realize that. Yeah, oh yeah. And my son likes
Speaker 1: to tell people that, you know, he was on an
Speaker 1: episode of The Office. Who was it? Who was he again?
Speaker 1: So I think it was baby shower. Greg asked both
Speaker 1: Mike Shure and I if we could bring our babies
Speaker 1: to set, okay, because Steve needed to hold a couple
Speaker 1: of babies, and our wives are in the background of
Speaker 1: the shot and the kids, Michael's Michael's holding the two babies,
Speaker 1: and you see, uh, Mike Sure's wife and you see
Speaker 1: my wife kind of in the background behind it. That's
Speaker 1: so cool. So my son, my eleven year old son,
Speaker 1: likes to make the point that he was on the Office.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, that is crazy. It's funny. So you, um,
Speaker 1: let's go back to early two thousand's you are well,
Speaker 1: you did the first two Apprentices, is that right? Season
Speaker 1: one and two I did, and Survivor I did. Now,
Speaker 1: when was Survivor? Was that early Sururvivor was before Survivor
Speaker 1: was before the Apprentice, and then before Survivor was Eco
Speaker 1: Challenge the Adventure Race? Okay, now that you shot with Randall.
Speaker 1: I think Australia was like the third season of the
Speaker 1: Eco Challenge and that's where Randall. That's where Randall and I.
Speaker 1: So you found Randall in a bush in Australia, I
Speaker 1: would say Mark Burnett found him. And you were a
Speaker 1: camera operator. I was a camera operator and then I
Speaker 1: started deepeeing reality stuff. I was deepeing documentaries. I was
Speaker 1: doing low budget movies. So how did you get hooked
Speaker 1: up with the folks from the office that was all? Randall? Randall? Yeah,
Speaker 1: Randall got hired. I think Randall had some kind of
Speaker 1: relationship or new got to know Ben silver and Silverman,
Speaker 1: and then I think it was Ben that brought him in.
Speaker 1: And because Randall and I knew the dance and you know,
Speaker 1: he was planning to operate. He won somebody that understood it,
Speaker 1: brought me in and uh, yeah, we did it together.
Speaker 1: Now when you say do the dance, what do you mean?
Speaker 1: So when with the particular style of show, because it
Speaker 1: was a mockumentary documentary, it was what we did in
Speaker 1: the bush, you know, for survivor, for whatever, and your
Speaker 1: storytelling from behind the camera. You're finding everything that you
Speaker 1: need to to to find and a lot of times
Speaker 1: you're by yourself, so you need to make it look
Speaker 1: like there are multiple cameras covering a scene and you're
Speaker 1: you're having to react quickly, you know, to catch the moments.
Speaker 1: I think that was sort of what was brought into
Speaker 1: the style of of The Office. I mean, it existed
Speaker 1: in the style of the original version, but I think
Speaker 1: we kind of honed it down. It was something that
Speaker 1: Randal and I did anyway for our reality and documentary stuff.
Speaker 1: So when you're shooting documentary reality type stuff, is anybody
Speaker 1: prompting you about what to get or in theory, there's
Speaker 1: a producer out there, But a lot of times when
Speaker 1: someone talks in your ear, it's more of an annoyance.
Speaker 1: It's it's all about having instincts and listening and being
Speaker 1: able able to kind of edit things within your head
Speaker 1: and understand what shots you need to tell the story.
Speaker 1: Interesting and on the show you had earpieces on on
Speaker 1: the office at least part of the time, and I remember,
Speaker 1: now you guys yanking them out? Now, why who was
Speaker 1: talking to you on the office. Well, it depends upon
Speaker 1: when when you ask that question, because there there would
Speaker 1: be times where you know, we had I think we
Speaker 1: had the smallest camera department in all of Hollywood. It
Speaker 1: was you know, it was random myself, it was Chris,
Speaker 1: it was ed for the first season, first two seasons,
Speaker 1: I think we had a DID and the theory with
Speaker 1: DID what they would roll the iris, they would control things.
Speaker 1: But the problem is is that Randal and I kind
Speaker 1: of did all at ourselves. We were pulling our own focus.
Speaker 1: We were changing the exposure. And when you do a
Speaker 1: camera move, and that DID is realizing what it is
Speaker 1: and slowly doing pulling the iris. It's not as quick
Speaker 1: as me knowing, Okay, I'm gonna throw to somebody over
Speaker 1: in the corner, and I see it's darker over there,
Speaker 1: so I'm gonna open up my exposure and pull my
Speaker 1: focus and zoom in for the shot. It's kind of
Speaker 1: multiple things going on at once. I don't know if
Speaker 1: that answered your question. No, it does. I mean it's
Speaker 1: also giving me a greater appreciation that you kind of
Speaker 1: knew what you were doing, which until this moment I
Speaker 1: didn't realize that you thank you. I appreciate that. No,
Speaker 1: but no, but that's interesting. So in a way, because
Speaker 1: you guys were taking care of so much of it yourself,
Speaker 1: other people were just kind of getting in your way
Speaker 1: that you needed it to be more rugged, ragged or well.
Speaker 1: I mean that was the feel of the show. I mean,
Speaker 1: we we we would lay out you know, you'd have
Speaker 1: a director come in and you talk about the the
Speaker 1: shot and it's the only you know, there are very
Speaker 1: few shows that can on the same lens, start with
Speaker 1: a super wide lens and then zoom in tight to
Speaker 1: someone's face in the first moment and do a whip
Speaker 1: across the room to catch somebody else's reaction. You know.
Speaker 1: It's a plus for the show is that it could
Speaker 1: look a little dirty and didn't have to be perfect.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think we were good at what we did,
Speaker 1: but you could see, you know, when things aren't, you know,
Speaker 1: immediately in focus or you're missing it and you're finding it.
Speaker 1: But it's all part of you know, the show. Right.
Speaker 1: Was it a conscious decision by you you're working in
Speaker 1: reality television, Did you want to be working in the
Speaker 1: scripted world or was this just a job that showed
Speaker 1: up I was playing in the scripted world. I would
Speaker 1: I would come in and operate on Scrubs and a
Speaker 1: handful of other shows. I was shooting scripted, you know,
Speaker 1: low budget feature or stuff, and I enjoyed it and
Speaker 1: it was something that was interesting for me. Ultimately, it
Speaker 1: came at the right time, you know. I ended up
Speaker 1: I got dangay fever on Survivor Thailand and that I
Speaker 1: was sick for I don't know, like six months from that. It.
Speaker 1: Ultimately it did two wonderful things for me. Number One,
Speaker 1: the girlfriend that I had that took care of me.
Speaker 1: I realized I needed to propose to That was the
Speaker 1: most important. Number Two, is it sort of knocked me
Speaker 1: out of reality television. I was supposed to go from
Speaker 1: that Survivor to do the next season of The Amazing
Speaker 1: Race because I was bouncing back and forth between five
Speaker 1: and The Amazing Race and I physically couldn't do it
Speaker 1: because I had no energy, I had no strength. And
Speaker 1: it was a little while after that then I got
Speaker 1: the call from Randall that said, hey, do you want
Speaker 1: to come and operate on this new show? And I
Speaker 1: jumped at the opportunity. You know, once you're working in
Speaker 1: a particular field, you get kind of buttonholed into it,
Speaker 1: and it's what you get known for, and it's where
Speaker 1: you end up and you know, so it was nice
Speaker 1: to break that gravitational pull from and to get into scripted. Um.
Speaker 1: He attributed this to Greg. But one of the things
Speaker 1: that Randall talked about was this sort of adage, everything
Speaker 1: that makes it harder makes it better. I think it
Speaker 1: was originally Einstein or something, but it the idea was Einstein, Greg,
Speaker 1: Greg Einstein, Randall. It's all the same um that the
Speaker 1: idea that you didn't want to shoot something perfectly, like
Speaker 1: having to fight through a pillar that was in the
Speaker 1: middle of the room, or or even moving a plant
Speaker 1: over into the shots appear to make it difficult without
Speaker 1: a doubt. Well, and it's also interesting because you know,
Speaker 1: after takes you would learn the script and know when
Speaker 1: the line was you didn't want to beat a whip
Speaker 1: to somebody who had a line you wanted a reason
Speaker 1: to have to pan over to accounting, to to whip
Speaker 1: over to Stanley. You know, you needed that moment. You
Speaker 1: didn't want to beat it there, but you know sometimes
Speaker 1: you did well. I remember actually, now that i'm thinking
Speaker 1: about it, you guys would ask at times for uh handles,
Speaker 1: particularly if the line was short, without a doubt and
Speaker 1: a handle. It would just be something as simple as
Speaker 1: a h or Michael, yeah, just something, And then it
Speaker 1: just gave us that excuse to do that whip to
Speaker 1: that person, because a lot of times, you know, it's
Speaker 1: impossible to truly cover a true conversation when you got
Speaker 1: six people talking, and when people talk naturally and they're
Speaker 1: saying something as simple as why yes or whatever, and
Speaker 1: you want to be able to get that and sell
Speaker 1: the joke. So just to have a little handle on there,
Speaker 1: you know, gave us a fighting chance. Yeah. I mean
Speaker 1: it was great because the camera was definitely a character
Speaker 1: in the show, and and it was great to be
Speaker 1: a part of that. And it did you know, there
Speaker 1: were there were scenes that were written as a spy shot,
Speaker 1: and there were scenes that were written you know, Okay,
Speaker 1: the camera's obviously there so you can feel free to
Speaker 1: look at it. But there were also scenes that I
Speaker 1: think we discovered once we shot them, what felt better
Speaker 1: and what worked better. And you know, it might have
Speaker 1: started out as a spy shot and then someone was
Speaker 1: caught and you saw that little look to Cameron, a
Speaker 1: reaction and a change in a tone, and um for
Speaker 1: a comedy, it was very different stylistically, and you know,
Speaker 1: I think that the Brittish show was very different stylistically. So,
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, one of my proudest accomplishments is
Speaker 1: being a part of this show that has, you know,
Speaker 1: become so much more than I feel like it ever was.
Speaker 1: Now however many years it's been, you know, since it
Speaker 1: was on the air, and that it still holds up
Speaker 1: and that the joke still lands and that the comedy
Speaker 1: is still there. Yeah. Do you remember you shot most
Speaker 1: of the talking heads? Yes, that I did. Do you
Speaker 1: remember the most difficult or some of the most difficult
Speaker 1: things that you had to shoot from a standpoint of
Speaker 1: not laughing or I'm fortunate that I am kind of
Speaker 1: a laughing on the inside clown and I could keep
Speaker 1: it in. And the good thing about breaking in a
Speaker 1: talking head is the camera was on a tripod, not
Speaker 1: on my shoulder. The bigger challenges was to break during
Speaker 1: scenes that we were shooting and the cameras on my shoulder,
Speaker 1: and there are some extra little shakes and giggles. Um.
Speaker 1: And there's one particular scene that I remember, not a
Speaker 1: talking head of of Steve Krell. I don't know what
Speaker 1: it was, Steve Krell saying, uh, how Benjamin Franklin is
Speaker 1: a douche. We had the Ben Franklin uh impersonator, yes,
Speaker 1: and and I don't know what it was, but I
Speaker 1: was in tears and I could not hold the camera
Speaker 1: because I was giggling so much with that moment. And
Speaker 1: that was the one true time that I broke. Now
Speaker 1: it was a regular thing. Like Jen Slata broke a
Speaker 1: lot when she did her interviews for the Talking Heads. Yes,
Speaker 1: we've discussed she having to be banished from the room.
Speaker 1: I often she would have to go out and and
Speaker 1: we'd give them another eye line. Um. I feel like,
Speaker 1: you know, for Talking Heads, rain Dwight had the most
Speaker 1: ridiculous talking heads of anybody and your comedy and without
Speaker 1: a doubt, and those were the ones that I feel
Speaker 1: like not only broke him, but broke everybody around him.
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Speaker 1: I heart radio, app Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
Speaker 1: your podcasts. Were you consciously I mean you talked about
Speaker 1: the camera being a character. What characters did you like? Well?
Speaker 1: It was so funny though, because I feel like I
Speaker 1: was so invested in so much of it, and and
Speaker 1: it became a thing that it was like I knew
Speaker 1: that I could give you a look and throw the
Speaker 1: camera your way and you were always there to give
Speaker 1: me a reaction. And and I recall that I could
Speaker 1: have a shot of John or of Michael, and I
Speaker 1: could just peek over and catch your eye and give
Speaker 1: you that look and do a whip to you, and
Speaker 1: you would be there with some kind of eye roll
Speaker 1: or giggle or something that would make me laugh. And
Speaker 1: it was a worse while worthwhile moment, you know. And
Speaker 1: I know that it wasn't everybody that I could do
Speaker 1: that with. And I know that you and I had
Speaker 1: that relationship and and it worked well, you know, And
Speaker 1: I know that the accounting department as a whole, knowing
Speaker 1: your guy's backgrounds, I know you guys always had your
Speaker 1: little bits that you did and that you worked really
Speaker 1: hard in trying to find those moments. I mean, in
Speaker 1: the early days, you know, all those other characters kind
Speaker 1: of blossomed into what they were. They were all so minimal,
Speaker 1: and it was fun to find moments and to find
Speaker 1: stories that weren't necessarily there, and to make more out
Speaker 1: of a moment, and to be able to do it
Speaker 1: with just a look, you know, throwing the camera to
Speaker 1: you to get a giggle, and then finding Angela being
Speaker 1: annoyed because you're giggling at whatever Dwight is saying at
Speaker 1: the moment. It was priceless and it made it in
Speaker 1: and it was funny. Yeah. Well, first of all, I
Speaker 1: want everyone to know I did not prompt him to
Speaker 1: say those things. This was that was a spontaneous thing,
Speaker 1: and I have told people that you specifically we would
Speaker 1: do like the wide receiver quarterback, not like I got you,
Speaker 1: got me, I got you, It's it's coming. I told
Speaker 1: John this story. He just railed into me. He really like,
Speaker 1: We're like, we're having a great scene and now you
Speaker 1: want to take credit. But you know what that that
Speaker 1: was my small contribution at times too, without scene well
Speaker 1: and when they couldn't get it together, that's it. Randall
Speaker 1: and I would have the running joke that we would
Speaker 1: throw to John and he would give us the number four,
Speaker 1: which was a particular look that he would give number four.
Speaker 1: We had it numbered, so there were a couple of
Speaker 1: looks that were sort of the John looks, and and
Speaker 1: it depending on what the scene was, we would know
Speaker 1: this is a Dwight moment. Up he's going to give
Speaker 1: us the number four. I'm throwing to John there it
Speaker 1: is the number four. Well, and that's that's so funny
Speaker 1: because my really my question about that, like the you know,
Speaker 1: if the camera is a character, then obviously you're affecting
Speaker 1: that relationship. But also like did you feel like Jim
Speaker 1: was more simpatico with you know, the documentarian or oh
Speaker 1: without a doubt? So yeah, I think that Jim's character
Speaker 1: as a whole, more than anyone else, Jim was the
Speaker 1: one that had the biggest relationship with camera. He was
Speaker 1: the one truly grounded, relatable person on the show, and
Speaker 1: he was the one that I think had the best
Speaker 1: relationship with the crew and that he kind of knew
Speaker 1: what we were going through and what we were dealing with.
Speaker 1: So you could always find Jim for a look or
Speaker 1: a nod and and you know, he got it right.
Speaker 1: So what was always discussed externally was the the character's
Speaker 1: relationship to the camera and whether it was there or
Speaker 1: it wasn't there, or was it seen or not seen,
Speaker 1: were we're trying to hide from it or whatever. Was
Speaker 1: there any discussion about you as the cameraman having an
Speaker 1: opinion or having a perspective on what you were seeing.
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like our perspective came across in
Speaker 1: how we covered the situations. So I don't feel like
Speaker 1: we went into it with a plan. I think something
Speaker 1: kind of grew out of it. You know, there were
Speaker 1: characters who almost never played the camera. I feel like
Speaker 1: Mindy never really played. Yeah, like I did more than
Speaker 1: Obster and All. I feel like, yeah, I mean Creed, no, Kate, No,
Speaker 1: not really Leslie. I mean I feel like they were
Speaker 1: aware but just doing their thing. You know, Michael would
Speaker 1: get caught and he would catch the camera and see
Speaker 1: the situation that he was in and fell caught. Jim
Speaker 1: seemed to always know where the camera was at all times.
Speaker 1: Um Kevin seemed to be aware of the camera because
Speaker 1: it was another kind of play toy for him. Dwight,
Speaker 1: it went kind of both ways. There would be times
Speaker 1: where he would kind of try to present play to
Speaker 1: the camera and other times where he would kind of
Speaker 1: just get caught. Did you feel like how much did
Speaker 1: you feel open to making suggestions on the show. Well,
Speaker 1: what was interesting with the show is that that we
Speaker 1: had we had great directors. We had who's who of
Speaker 1: directors come into the show. You know, when you have
Speaker 1: Paul fig Kin, Kopis, Um, Harold Ramos, J. J. Abrams
Speaker 1: what was great. I mean, ultimately, all of these directors
Speaker 1: were my directing school and and my whole thing once
Speaker 1: I started directing on the show was that I throughout
Speaker 1: my time there, I tried to pull something from each
Speaker 1: of these directors to keep with me, whether it was
Speaker 1: a positive thing or a negative thing that I learned.
Speaker 1: With all of these directors coming in, they all had
Speaker 1: such respect, which I'm thankful for for both Randall and
Speaker 1: I to let us do our thing because we knew
Speaker 1: the show so well. And I think Charles McDougald might
Speaker 1: have been sort of the only director that was so
Speaker 1: specific with his moves. You know, he had such a
Speaker 1: vision of it that he would say, zoom into his face,
Speaker 1: down to the credit card, up to the computer, down
Speaker 1: to the keyboard, right to his face. You know, he
Speaker 1: had these other times, you know, most of the directors
Speaker 1: would say, well, yeah, just cover this and make it
Speaker 1: feel you know, like the office, and Randal and I
Speaker 1: would do our thing. Okay, quiz question, Okay, you have
Speaker 1: to answer, honestly what type of scene would cause the
Speaker 1: biggest disruption in our work day or week. The conference
Speaker 1: room scenes were the black holes scenes. I mean, they
Speaker 1: were brilliant for what it was. But when you got
Speaker 1: the entire cast sitting in chairs and you have Michael
Speaker 1: Scott doing one of his bits, and depending on what
Speaker 1: kind of mood you were in, but depending on what
Speaker 1: kind of mood John was in, who was messing with
Speaker 1: who it would it would decide if we were going
Speaker 1: to be there for hours or if we were going
Speaker 1: to get through it. You know. But constantly people were breaking,
Speaker 1: people were messing around, people were Yeah, it was chaos. Okay,
Speaker 1: that's a good answer. You you failed the quiz. Oh shit, really? Yeah.
Speaker 1: I have said that nothing could halt production like a
Speaker 1: Jim Pam scene. Oh see, I thought you meant an
Speaker 1: overall scene. Oh god, there would be all sorts of
Speaker 1: huddles and groups and clearings of sets when there would
Speaker 1: be like a Jim and Pam moment. I had a
Speaker 1: very specific Tom Waits impression that I would do, which
Speaker 1: would be something like, there's a discussion at themonitor and
Speaker 1: the writers would get so aggravated. But it was true.
Speaker 1: Though the writers would get called, they would all come down,
Speaker 1: we would dissect the scene, we would rebuild it. It
Speaker 1: also depended on who was directing and who had written it,
Speaker 1: you know, and who was present at the time those
Speaker 1: early Jim and Pam scenes where they were just starting
Speaker 1: or I mean the kiss, Oh my god, you know,
Speaker 1: we cleared set. I feel like for an hour and
Speaker 1: a half. I think that that Kim, because it was
Speaker 1: Kim coppas that was with them on set, and then
Speaker 1: just Randle and I came in and we were shoved
Speaker 1: in corners just to see where we would get our
Speaker 1: shots from, and we had our game plan and just
Speaker 1: getting to the point of of rolling on that. Why
Speaker 1: do why do you think those were so important? Well, again,
Speaker 1: I think that their relationship was such a great thing,
Speaker 1: and it was a slow burn early on, and they
Speaker 1: didn't want to go too far too fast, and they
Speaker 1: wanted to keep it grounded and they wanted to keep
Speaker 1: it real. And I think that it was finding that
Speaker 1: exact tone that kept everybody happy, that kept their relationship,
Speaker 1: you know, on point, to give it that slow build.
Speaker 1: And the great thing about their relationship is it felt
Speaker 1: real and it felt grounded, and it wasn't one of
Speaker 1: these ridiculous, romantic, silly things that you see in a
Speaker 1: lot of shows that just happens. It was a slow
Speaker 1: burn that basically grew fruits of their labor. Right. But
Speaker 1: you guys, I mean, it's a curring to me right now.
Speaker 1: You guys were so instrumental in telling that story because
Speaker 1: it really was just about you guys finding very very
Speaker 1: small moments. Because they were so small, they were super charged, right,
Speaker 1: And and with that, the cameras were always hidden. It
Speaker 1: was always at the end of the lens. You know,
Speaker 1: you would you would be so still that the only
Speaker 1: movement in the camera would literally be your heartbeat. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that those moments were so well
Speaker 1: written and so well acted that it was easy for us,
Speaker 1: being hidden, to tell our side of that story. And
Speaker 1: then you got to tell like a fun love a
Speaker 1: couple of fun love stories with Dwight and Angela and
Speaker 1: Kelly and Ryan, which were kind of the opposite and spectrum,
Speaker 1: and and just the same with with Ellie and Andy. Yes,
Speaker 1: you know, there were a lot of relationships that that
Speaker 1: blossomed within that that office. Um anything specifically different about
Speaker 1: how those things were. I mean, the Dwight and Angela
Speaker 1: was really about, uh, you know, trying to like fight
Speaker 1: hunt them down sort of like you know, maybe some
Speaker 1: pairing on Survivor right, and that one was specifically fun
Speaker 1: just because of who those characters are and how they
Speaker 1: dealt with each other, and and it was it was
Speaker 1: wonderful in its own right. And then you know, Mindy
Speaker 1: and and Ryan was its own dysfunctional relationship that you know,
Speaker 1: had other echoes of based on reality kind of moments
Speaker 1: that we're kind of fun to to to be aware of.
Speaker 1: Think with the Ryan and Kelly stories, when I would
Speaker 1: we would be reading an episode and a table read,
Speaker 1: and I would sort of immediately go and be like,
Speaker 1: who wrote this episode? Again? Okay, all right, I see
Speaker 1: where this one's coming from. Well, I had heard that
Speaker 1: there were sometimes where when those two were fighting in
Speaker 1: real life, that the writers would come together and make
Speaker 1: sure that there was some scene that they were making
Speaker 1: out on set just to kind of poke the bear. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: that sounds like it, like like Mike Sharre playing Mos
Speaker 1: which which well, in that first season where they made
Speaker 1: him grow the beard and keep it. I remember we
Speaker 1: had there was like a we didn't get a shot
Speaker 1: or we needed him with the beard and he had
Speaker 1: to wear it to the Emmys or something ridiculous. Do
Speaker 1: you remember that, man? No, I have some vague recollection
Speaker 1: of it. And we're live here outside the Perez family home,
Speaker 1: just waiting for the and there they go, almost on time.
Speaker 1: This morning. Mom is coming out the front door, strong
Speaker 1: with a double arm kid carry. Looks like Dad has
Speaker 1: the bags. Daughter is bringing up the rear. Oh, but
Speaker 1: the diaper bag wasn't closed. Diapers and toys are everywhere.
Speaker 1: But Mom has just nailed the perfect car seat buckle
Speaker 1: for the toddler. And now the eldest daughter, who looks
Speaker 1: to be about nine or ten, has secured herself in
Speaker 1: the booster seat. Dad zips the bag clothes and they're off,
Speaker 1: But looks like Mom doesn't realize her coffee cup is
Speaker 1: still on the roof of the car and there it goes. Ah,
Speaker 1: that's a shame that mug was a fan favorite. Don't
Speaker 1: sweat the small stuff, just nailed the big stuff, like
Speaker 1: making sure your kids are buckled correctly in the right
Speaker 1: seat for their agent's eyes. Learn more NHTSA dot gov
Speaker 1: slash the Right Seat visits h s A dot gov
Speaker 1: slash the Right Seat. Brought to you by NITZA and
Speaker 1: the Ad Council. The Gangster Chronicles podcast is a wiggly
Speaker 1: conversation that revolves around underworld, the criminals and attainers to victniss,
Speaker 1: crime and law enforcement. We cover all facets of the game.
Speaker 1: Against the Chronicles podcast doesn't glorify pro motilicit activities. We
Speaker 1: just discussed the ramifications and repercussions of these activities because
Speaker 1: at the wall, if you played gainst the games, you
Speaker 1: are ultimately rewarded with Gainster prizes. Our Heart Radios number
Speaker 1: one for podcasts, but don't take our award for it.
Speaker 1: Find Against the Chronicles podcast and I Heart Radio app
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcast. The art world it
Speaker 1: is essentially a money laundering business. The best fakes are
Speaker 1: still hanging off people's walls. You know they don't even
Speaker 1: know or suspect that there fakes. I'm at like Baldwin
Speaker 1: and this is a podcast about deception, greed and forgery
Speaker 1: in the art world. You knew the painting was fake. Um,
Speaker 1: listen to Art Fraud on the I Heart Radio app,
Speaker 1: Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. M Randall leaves.
Speaker 1: Randall left UH and I became the DP and Sarah
Speaker 1: Levie came in. Sarah Levy was a camera operator and
Speaker 1: she came in and day played with us when Randall
Speaker 1: was still around. But she was also just a great
Speaker 1: fit for the show, so it was perfect to get
Speaker 1: her in. You know, right now, Sarah's doing she did
Speaker 1: Captain Marvel. She yeah, she works all the time. She's
Speaker 1: a rock star. Yea. Was it a big change for
Speaker 1: you taking over that role on the show or not? Really?
Speaker 1: I mean I was fortunate enough that I knew the
Speaker 1: show so well and had worked so closely with Randall
Speaker 1: that I felt like, you know, I was, I was ready,
Speaker 1: and it was an easy transition to make. But then
Speaker 1: you start directing. Actually that was before Randall left that
Speaker 1: I got my first opportunity. You got your first opportunity
Speaker 1: during Happy Hour? Was it Happy Hour? Or was it?
Speaker 1: It was? It was Happy Hour? Sorry, because they the
Speaker 1: name changed at some point in time. It was Date Mike,
Speaker 1: but it got changed to Happy Hour. Happy Hour was
Speaker 1: the episode and that was in season six. How did
Speaker 1: you feel about that? Was that? Was that something you'd
Speaker 1: always wanted to do? It was something I was interested
Speaker 1: in doing. Um. Greg gave a number of us our
Speaker 1: first true opportunities to direct. He gave Randall the opportunity
Speaker 1: that Randall took and ran with uh he gave it
Speaker 1: to Dave Rogers, editor, to Claire Scanlon who was an editor.
Speaker 1: But I feel like Greg gave us all these opportunities
Speaker 1: that helped step us all to you know where we
Speaker 1: are now as directors. Um. I was thrilled to get
Speaker 1: the opportunity to direct. It was great being on this
Speaker 1: show because I felt like I had so much support
Speaker 1: from the cast because they all knew me. I you know,
Speaker 1: I always got some level of ship from somebody, but
Speaker 1: I felt super supported and Um. It was also a
Speaker 1: great episode because we spent so much time out of
Speaker 1: the office and I think we were in a what's
Speaker 1: the arcade name the two names the Dusters. It was
Speaker 1: like that, yeah, but it was a David Buster. It
Speaker 1: was the David Busters up at Universal. And but the
Speaker 1: name it ended up going with was Sid and Dexter's,
Speaker 1: which are the names of my kids. Well, I pitched it,
Speaker 1: they were kind enough to accept it, which was kind
Speaker 1: of fun. Um. What's so great about this episode to
Speaker 1: me is that you know, he's getting set up by
Speaker 1: Jim and Pam with one of Pam's friends, and he's
Speaker 1: so sweet and genuine to this woman until he realizes
Speaker 1: that he's on a date, and then he goes back
Speaker 1: to his car and he puts on his kangle hat
Speaker 1: on backwards and he becomes date Mike. He becomes this horrible,
Speaker 1: horrible other person that he that Michael Scott believes is
Speaker 1: what he needs to be to make this date work.
Speaker 1: And he causes a huge scene, and you know, everything
Speaker 1: with this woman that Pam has trying to set him
Speaker 1: up with goes to pot but he ends up ultimately
Speaker 1: making an impression with the manager of the bar and
Speaker 1: gets a phone number, so he leaves thinking he succeeded.
Speaker 1: So it was ultimately a win from my in a
Speaker 1: very sad way, in a disastrous way. Right. Um, Well,
Speaker 1: you mentioned people who Greg gave an opportunity to direct,
Speaker 1: and the support that you felt from the actors because
Speaker 1: you were a part. But you know, he also gave
Speaker 1: Steve an opportunity and John and Rain and myself an
Speaker 1: opportunity to direct, and I think we felt so at
Speaker 1: ease because of the support that you gave. On the
Speaker 1: other side of it was kind of a yeah, we
Speaker 1: kind of helped each other out without a doubt. You know,
Speaker 1: the the the the show was like a family because
Speaker 1: there were so many people that were on the show
Speaker 1: for so many seasons, and you know, to spend that
Speaker 1: much time with that many people, to have lunches with
Speaker 1: everybody day in and day out, to be trapped on
Speaker 1: our small set day in and day out, you have
Speaker 1: no choice but build a friendship, right and I you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's the most fortunate experience I've ever had, and
Speaker 1: I think I will ever have in TV. You know,
Speaker 1: it has truly given me everything else that has come since,
Speaker 1: and it has set me up to deal with everything
Speaker 1: that I've dealt with and taught me, you know, to
Speaker 1: get to watch actors who start out as kids and
Speaker 1: nuancet to become huge megas celebrities, and junior high kids
Speaker 1: today are binge watching it, you know, day in and
Speaker 1: day out. It's amazing. I I love the fact that
Speaker 1: my dad has all of the swag that I got
Speaker 1: from the show. It to your dad. I gave all
Speaker 1: my stuff. So he wears the jackets, he wears the hats,
Speaker 1: and you know, my dad is eighty six. He goes
Speaker 1: out to the store whatever is wearing an Office season two,
Speaker 1: season three jacket or hat, and no matter where he goes,
Speaker 1: he gets stopped and somebody's like, wow, did you work
Speaker 1: on the office and and it makes him laugh and
Speaker 1: he makes him proud, and uh, yeah, it's funny. When
Speaker 1: did you here that Steve was leaving? Do you remember? Oh, boy,
Speaker 1: did you when you realized that he was leaving and
Speaker 1: we went and we shot goodbye Michael? Do you remember
Speaker 1: emotions that came up? Again? Because I'm not only a
Speaker 1: laughing on the inside clown, I'm also a crying on
Speaker 1: the inside clown. So it was a running joke on
Speaker 1: set to guess who was going to cry next on
Speaker 1: during that week, because boy, it was. It was contagious
Speaker 1: and it just went around and there was a lot
Speaker 1: of emotion, and all I remember is going, man, we're
Speaker 1: never going to get through this week. It was the
Speaker 1: end of an era, you know, the fact that he
Speaker 1: was leaving, and it was one of those things that
Speaker 1: there was that level of unsure nous of wondering what
Speaker 1: happens now? You know, is this ship just going to
Speaker 1: immediately sink as soon as he steps off of it
Speaker 1: or can it continue to sail? Well? You you directed
Speaker 1: the next episode after he left Inner Circle with Will
Speaker 1: do you remember any specific I don't know pressure that
Speaker 1: you felt or I hadn't realized that that was the
Speaker 1: one after he left. Yeah, what a horrible thing to
Speaker 1: do to me, probably just because no one else was
Speaker 1: willing to take that episode. Yeah, it was all on
Speaker 1: my shoulders. How was that directing that right after Steve left? Well, again,
Speaker 1: it was it was that whole thing that the show
Speaker 1: must go on. We were still our king forward. It
Speaker 1: was sad not having Steve around, but we still had
Speaker 1: a job to do, and you know, to have Will
Speaker 1: there wasn't a bad thing, right And then the office
Speaker 1: goes to Florida and you direct two of those episodes,
Speaker 1: and I'm a little bit hurt that you didn't mention
Speaker 1: your favorite director that you worked with was me, hands down,
Speaker 1: who directed another one of those episodes. Yes, of the
Speaker 1: Tallahassee episodes. Now, as a first time director of the show,
Speaker 1: what were your biggest challenges? Well, you screwed me. I
Speaker 1: mean that my biggest challenge was you actually excellent. And
Speaker 1: I don't know if we have discussed this before, but
Speaker 1: I will tell a story. So in my episode, there
Speaker 1: was a little bit of Ryan actually also kind of
Speaker 1: flirting with Ellie. Oh sorry. Aaron played by Ellie kemper,
Speaker 1: and they decided to break into the kitchen and they
Speaker 1: were gonna make a waffle. Yes, they were going to
Speaker 1: make And so suddenly some people came into the kitchen
Speaker 1: who worked there, and they weren't supposed to be there.
Speaker 1: This was at a big hotel. So they hide under
Speaker 1: a table, okay, and we shoot this, and I'm looking
Speaker 1: and I'm very attuned to their performance under the table,
Speaker 1: and you know, I really felt like I did really
Speaker 1: great on my job. And we had a background performer,
Speaker 1: and we had background performers who were walking back and forth.
Speaker 1: You could see their legs and they were in the shot.
Speaker 1: And at one point, a background performer was standing right
Speaker 1: behind the industrial table where they were hiding under, and um,
Speaker 1: please can I can I And I'm I'm I have
Speaker 1: a vision now? Was this the guy that was cracking
Speaker 1: the imaginary eggs? Yes? So I'm very focused on our
Speaker 1: principal actors. You are supposedly looking through the camera lens
Speaker 1: at what we're shooting and making sure that everything looks
Speaker 1: a pro oprio. And there's a background performer who, for
Speaker 1: multiple takes stood above the table just and took a
Speaker 1: bowl and cracked imaginary eggs on that bowl and did
Speaker 1: the yoke thing and threw the eggs away and kept
Speaker 1: cracking eggs into this bowl. So I go into edit
Speaker 1: this episode and they're like, see the guy back there,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, what, No, b J looks great, what
Speaker 1: do you mean? And they're like, no, the guy cracking
Speaker 1: the imaginary eggs. So they literally had to go in
Speaker 1: and zoom in to cut out now that you could
Speaker 1: only see the guy's hands, like you couldn't see his
Speaker 1: face or anything else, but you could see him fake cracking.
Speaker 1: And here's my question, Yes, was it my camera or
Speaker 1: was it the other camera? Actually, here's the important thing.
Speaker 1: The important thing is is that I think we only
Speaker 1: had one camera going because we were shooting. I think
Speaker 1: should have been watched. You either shot it or you
Speaker 1: should have been watching. I think I again was mesmerized much,
Speaker 1: but like you by the performance, that's my job. I'm
Speaker 1: the director. You need to pay attention to what you're
Speaker 1: added to the list. Brian Um season nine comes, you
Speaker 1: hear the show is coming to an end. What's your
Speaker 1: What was your feeling then? To me, it was time.
Speaker 1: It felt right for my career personally, it was time
Speaker 1: because then It was after this show that I stepped
Speaker 1: away from camera as a whole and just started directing.
Speaker 1: And you know, it was interesting for me for my career.
Speaker 1: When I got my representation, when I got my agents,
Speaker 1: they said to me, Okay, it's time for you to
Speaker 1: step away and just become a full time director. And
Speaker 1: I said, you know what, the office gave me all
Speaker 1: of these opportunities, I'm not leaving them. I'm going to
Speaker 1: stay and finish the show. And you know I was.
Speaker 1: I was happy to be a part of it again.
Speaker 1: To be on a show for nine seasons is in
Speaker 1: my mind, unheard of. It will be the longest I'll
Speaker 1: ever be, you know, on any show. And I feel
Speaker 1: super fortunate, and I'm glad that I stuck it out
Speaker 1: and was there for the whole run up the show.
Speaker 1: So you laugh and cry on the inside, did you
Speaker 1: do you remember specific emotions like it's the last final
Speaker 1: table read. It was a great episode, And I don't
Speaker 1: know how much you remember of that episode. Greg was
Speaker 1: writing up to it was almost as if he did
Speaker 1: not want the show to end. He kept writing more
Speaker 1: and more and we kept shooting more and more and more. Yeah,
Speaker 1: was that your first acting work as documentary crew member.
Speaker 1: I was told, I was assured that they were going
Speaker 1: to replace my voice with a more masculine documentary documentarian voice.
Speaker 1: So I'm in Dwight's car, he's driving, and it scripted
Speaker 1: that the dogumentarian asks him a question, and I was
Speaker 1: asking him the question, so he had someone to answer to.
Speaker 1: And again the discussion was, oh, yeah, we'll we'll change
Speaker 1: it in the edit. Lo and behold there's my My
Speaker 1: first and only acting credit for anything is the Office.
Speaker 1: So I guess as things go, it's it's not bad.
Speaker 1: What do you think it's harder acting or operating a camera? Oh? Boy,
Speaker 1: I think acting is harder only because you're getting judged
Speaker 1: constantly by everybody. I feel like my operating can get
Speaker 1: judged one or two people. But yes, but but but
Speaker 1: nobody's judging my physical appearance, nobody's nobody's seeing into my soul.
Speaker 1: What are you most thankful for the show? I mean,
Speaker 1: the show gave me so much. It gave me, you know,
Speaker 1: nine years of regular work, which is huge in this business.
Speaker 1: It gave me basically the career that I've continued on.
Speaker 1: You know, Greg Daniels gave me my opportunities to direct.
Speaker 1: It gave me friendships with a whole lot of people
Speaker 1: that I never would have met if I hadn't have
Speaker 1: been part of the show, you know. But it also
Speaker 1: gave me such an amazing look into sort of the
Speaker 1: underbelly and behind the curtain of what it takes to
Speaker 1: make a show. You know. I was very privileged to
Speaker 1: get to go to meetings and get to be in
Speaker 1: rooms and get to hear conversations and get to be
Speaker 1: part of conversations that, you know, in any other case,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have been provided to And uh, it's hands down,
Speaker 1: it'll be a highlight of my career. Yeah, where do
Speaker 1: you think that you would be right now if the
Speaker 1: Office had never happened, if you hadn't gotten dangy fever? Boy,
Speaker 1: that's a very good question. I I don't want to
Speaker 1: think about that, right. I feel very fortunate, but I
Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, I feel like I wouldn't be
Speaker 1: where I am now without the show, and I don't
Speaker 1: want to think about where I would be without the UM. Well,
Speaker 1: thank you so much, busy big time director. I don't
Speaker 1: know about that. You're a busy, big time director, happy
Speaker 1: to be working and I so appreciate you coming and
Speaker 1: talking to me about these old times. It's my pleasure.
Speaker 1: It's really fun. I'm sure there's other stuff that I've forgotten.
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter. Now. I have one other thing. Did
Speaker 1: you do you remember the conversation with JJ Abrams his
Speaker 1: first day on set? No, what was a conversation? How
Speaker 1: he freaked out his first day on set? Oh? Tell this,
Speaker 1: JJ Abrams freaked out the first down set. So the
Speaker 1: first season we shot the show in Culver City, we
Speaker 1: used the Felicity offices right and when he was on
Speaker 1: our set because it was a copy of that set.
Speaker 1: The conference room was his office on Felicity when he
Speaker 1: ran that show, and he said every time he was
Speaker 1: on the set, it freaked him out because all he
Speaker 1: remembered was that's the conference room, but that's my office, myfice. No,
Speaker 1: I did not remember that. Yeah, I remember that. Um J.
Speaker 1: J Abrams wanted to direct a whole season. He and
Speaker 1: Greg said, no, he wanted to direct a whole season.
Speaker 1: Wanted to come in and direct a whole season. Does
Speaker 1: that guy have the time to season? I don't know
Speaker 1: how he had wanted to do everything he does. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I remember him bring us food trucks every day. But
Speaker 1: I remember also we had a conversation just in between
Speaker 1: takes about Coldplay and I had mentioned I was a fan,
Speaker 1: And the next day he comes in and he says, hey, man,
Speaker 1: I got you the new CD. Cold Plays new CD.
Speaker 1: I thought you might enjoy it. I was like, who
Speaker 1: are you? How can you have time to go get
Speaker 1: this place exactly? How can you be this nice of
Speaker 1: a person? Yeah? No, I mean so many Harold Ramos,
Speaker 1: Harold Ramos? Who else? I mean? Jon Favreau was great.
Speaker 1: Brian bamb Gardner. Brian bomb Gardner, he was unbelievable. I
Speaker 1: recall he was strong. He brought it. You know, we didn't.
Speaker 1: We weren't sure, but he brought it. Thanks buddy, you
Speaker 1: got it, my friend. Well there you have it. This
Speaker 1: is what I heard. Matt Son said that I Brian
Speaker 1: bomb Gardner was one of the best directors ever in
Speaker 1: the history of the Office. His words, not mine. I
Speaker 1: hope you all enjoyed this, this mini series on camera
Speaker 1: as character as much as I did. Do yourself a
Speaker 1: favor and go back and watch an episode of the show,
Speaker 1: a scene of the show that you enjoyed, and just
Speaker 1: imagine Matt and Randall holding the cameras trying their darnedest
Speaker 1: not to laugh. It's a fun exercise. Thank you all
Speaker 1: for listening, have a wonderful week, and I will see
Speaker 1: you next time for another installment, another chapter of the
Speaker 1: US Deep Dive. The Office Deep Dive is hosted and
Speaker 1: executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive producer Langley.
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer, our producer is Adam Massias,
Speaker 1: our associate producer is Emily Carr, and our assistant editor
Speaker 1: is Diego Tapia. My main man in the booth is
Speaker 1: Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by
Speaker 1: my great friend Cree Bratton, and the episode was mixed
Speaker 1: by seth Olandskip. Mama, what is the chicken? Sell raf Diraffe?
Speaker 1: Felling giraffe giraffe. You're not gonna get it all right.
Speaker 1: Just make sure you know the big stuff, like making
Speaker 1: sure your kids are buckled correctly in the right seat
Speaker 1: for their agent's eyes. Get it right visits n h
Speaker 1: S a dot gov slash The Right Seat brought to
Speaker 1: you by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and the
Speaker 1: AD Council. We've all felt left out and for people
Speaker 1: who moved to this country, that feeling last more than
Speaker 1: a moment. We can change that. Learn how it belonging
Speaker 1: begins with us dot org, brought to you by the
Speaker 1: AD Council. What's Up, guys. I'm a Shop Aloud and
Speaker 1: I am Troy Millions and we are the host of
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