Speaker 1: Hey, y'all, Eve's here. I know you're ready to get
Speaker 1: into this episode, but really quick. We have been loving
Speaker 1: connecting with y'all over black storytelling, and if you've really
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Speaker 1: Now time for the episode. On Theme is a production
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and fair Weather Friends Media.
Speaker 2: I'm Katie and I'm Eves.
Speaker 1: Today's episode Branding While Black, So Katie, I have a
Speaker 1: fraught relationship with personal branding. I am not the most
Speaker 1: comfortable person on social media, but I understand the pressures
Speaker 1: of feeling the need to personal brand. And when I
Speaker 1: say personal brand, I'm thinking create a very molded and
Speaker 1: shaped and crafted story about ourselves on social media and
Speaker 1: on the Internet. And I know that it can feel
Speaker 1: like a part of marketing, but too honestly, it's a
Speaker 1: part of storytelling because we are telling stories about ourselves.
Speaker 1: And I just wondered, does that look different for black
Speaker 1: people than it does for everybody else? How do you
Speaker 1: feel about personal branding?
Speaker 3: I find it more of an evil than a necessary evil.
Speaker 3: I try not to do it at all. I try
Speaker 3: to resist as much as possible, especially I think with
Speaker 3: online personal branding.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there are a lot of downsides to
Speaker 1: personal branding and to having to do it and having
Speaker 1: to be visible on the Internet in a way that
Speaker 1: is compartmentalized. But I know that there are also upsides
Speaker 1: to it. It's a very complicated topic and for that reason,
Speaker 1: we wanted to talk to Bridget Todd of the podcast
Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet.
Speaker 4: My name is Bridget Todd, I you shee her pronouns,
Speaker 4: and I am the creator and host of iHeartRadio's techn
Speaker 4: culture podcast called There Are No Girls on the Internet.
Speaker 2: Someone with a great personal brand. I'd say yes, definitely.
Speaker 1: So let's get into our conversation with Bridget. Hi, Bridget,
Speaker 1: welcome to one theme. We are so happy to have
Speaker 1: you here today.
Speaker 4: Uh Eve's my podcast play Cousin. I am so excited
Speaker 4: to be here.
Speaker 1: So I have a lot of feelings about social media
Speaker 1: and about what branding means, and I definitely rub up
Speaker 1: against some friction a lot of the time when I'm
Speaker 1: thinking about what branding means and kind of feeling compelled
Speaker 1: to come up with the brand and do the active branding.
Speaker 1: But I am wondering, since you're very in tune with
Speaker 1: social media and digital media strategy, what exactly does personal
Speaker 1: branding mean to you?
Speaker 4: To me, personal branding is very powerful. It's a necessary
Speaker 4: way to show up online. It is a necessary way
Speaker 4: to make sure that the people that you want to
Speaker 4: be in conversation with, the people that you want to
Speaker 4: give you money to make things that they think of
Speaker 4: you when they think of whatever it is.
Speaker 5: That you specialize in.
Speaker 4: However, I would also say personal branding is really exhausting.
Speaker 4: I think that it's something that we are forced to
Speaker 4: do because we live in a capitalistic, white supremacy society
Speaker 4: that kind of forces us to be not just making
Speaker 4: the thing and excited about making the thing, but selling
Speaker 4: how we make the thing.
Speaker 5: And yeah, I just don't.
Speaker 4: I think that any conversation about personal branding also has
Speaker 4: to be rooted with the fact that sometimes it feels
Speaker 4: like we are forced to do that kind of work
Speaker 4: in addition to the work that we want to be doing.
Speaker 3: So, given your stance on personal branding, give us your
Speaker 3: personal brand a bio.
Speaker 2: Tell us who we are?
Speaker 5: Oh man, so who I am?
Speaker 4: And as it pertains to my how I've branded myself personally.
Speaker 3: Or like yeah, like if we were if I was
Speaker 3: a big shot in an elevator who had the money, like,
Speaker 3: what would you say to get some off of me?
Speaker 4: First of all, I would say, if you're a billionaire,
Speaker 4: you probably didn't get that money ethically.
Speaker 5: So you want to say it funds.
Speaker 4: Your conscient No, no, no, no, well no. I did want
Speaker 4: to get drunk at a party with very rich people
Speaker 4: and I asked somebody how much their house costs.
Speaker 5: My friend was like, that's such a rude question.
Speaker 2: We'll do that when I'm not drunk.
Speaker 4: So if I was in an elevator with a big
Speaker 4: shot media professional, I would say that along with my
Speaker 4: amazing team, with folks like Tari Harrison and Joey Pat,
Speaker 4: I make conversations about technology and the policy and the
Speaker 4: people that run it. I make those accessible, and I
Speaker 4: make those in ways that highlight the reality that it
Speaker 4: is traditionally marginalized people who make technology what it is.
Speaker 4: And so we're fostering and curating conversations that really deepen
Speaker 4: the perspective of black folks, queer folks, black women, trans folks,
Speaker 4: working people, all the kinds of people that are often
Speaker 4: left out of conversations about technology, the Internet, social media,
Speaker 4: what it means, and the policy.
Speaker 5: That shapes it.
Speaker 4: We start there, like that is our starting point for
Speaker 4: those conversations.
Speaker 6: I can tell you've done that before, Bridget.
Speaker 2: I give you some money.
Speaker 3: I'm just gonna know, right, money please, So when you
Speaker 3: are thinking about personal branding, like because I've went to
Speaker 3: your website and I was and I listened to your show,
Speaker 3: I'm like, I truly don't know anything else about you
Speaker 3: besides what you like put out there that's pertaining to
Speaker 3: your professional career. Like I don't know if you've got
Speaker 3: a man, you got a woman, you got kids, I
Speaker 3: don't know nothing. I'm like, I'm nosy and I want
Speaker 3: to know those things. But I feel like you personally,
Speaker 3: like purposely, don't put those out there. So like, what
Speaker 3: story are you focused on telling? And what story are you? Like, No,
Speaker 3: that's a distraction for why I'm trying to get at Katie.
Speaker 4: That is a very like that is you're good with
Speaker 4: your Internet sleuthing because you would have to dig pretty
Speaker 4: deep I think to find out personal information about me,
Speaker 4: And that is very much with intention and by design,
Speaker 4: and I think It goes back to what I personally
Speaker 4: have found about my branding is that because I find
Speaker 4: personal branding and sort of storytelling about myself online, I
Speaker 4: find it kind of exhausting and I don't really like
Speaker 4: participating in it that much these days, but I know
Speaker 4: I kind of have to because of the career that
Speaker 4: I'm in.
Speaker 5: I am very intentional about it.
Speaker 4: I almost would use the phrase like, you know, kind
Speaker 4: of neutrally manipulative.
Speaker 5: I don't want any I only want someone.
Speaker 4: To be able to say like, oh, well, she does
Speaker 4: x y Z kind of work, she's interested in x
Speaker 4: y Z kind of projects. And part of it is
Speaker 4: because you know, I care quite a bit about my
Speaker 4: work and my professional identity, but my real identity, the
Speaker 4: people that I love, my community, my values, all of that.
Speaker 4: I kind of hold that a bit closer to my
Speaker 4: chest because I don't want that to be something that
Speaker 4: is a personal an exhaustive personal branding exercise. Right like
Speaker 4: when I'm spending time with my family, I don't want
Speaker 4: to feel that I have to be digitally curating a
Speaker 4: story about that time. Otherwise it doesn't count. That's just
Speaker 4: like not a not a dynamic. I'm really interested in
Speaker 4: bringing into certain parts of my life. But I'm happy
Speaker 4: to talk about it.
Speaker 5: With you all. In terms of how I brand myself,
Speaker 5: it doesn't really show up.
Speaker 2: Yes, I've no zy, I want to know. I'll talk
Speaker 2: about that after Katie.
Speaker 4: Well, I'm curious how is it shown up for like
Speaker 4: how do you two as creatives and hosts and people
Speaker 4: who have platforms and make things like how do you
Speaker 4: How have you found that dynamic?
Speaker 2: I think we approach very differently.
Speaker 6: Say more about that.
Speaker 3: I think cause like I don't have like a website
Speaker 3: about myself or anything I've taken into like also not
Speaker 3: like really posting anything about my like family, and I
Speaker 3: used to I felt like people would ask me questions.
Speaker 3: I just felt like I had to answer, like and
Speaker 3: it's like so silly to say it was like you
Speaker 3: actually don't have to tell people things just because they
Speaker 3: ask you that, Like, oh, guy Ross is asking me
Speaker 3: about my grandpa, I have to tell him and I'm
Speaker 3: just like, oh no, I don't. So like I've tapered
Speaker 3: off of that. I feel like I've grown into like
Speaker 3: cause like in my personal life, I'm very like to myself,
Speaker 3: like I don't even be telling my friends like every
Speaker 3: single thing. So I'm like, why am I telling the
Speaker 3: internet every single thing? And I think I got to
Speaker 3: that very quickly. It's like, actually, I don't like this,
Speaker 3: Like I feel like I don't really have a curated
Speaker 3: personal brand. Maybe my personal brand is like not having one,
Speaker 3: like being mysterious, I would like think. I was like, yeah,
Speaker 3: my agent was like, you need to have a website
Speaker 3: and you need to do this, and I'm just like, hmm,
Speaker 3: I hear you, but I'm not going to do that.
Speaker 1: So yeah, they tried to do the same thing to me,
Speaker 1: like back in like years ago when I first started
Speaker 1: hosting pop they were like, you should probably set up
Speaker 1: a Twitter. I mean, and look how that's gone today,
Speaker 1: you know. But I mean, I have felt compelled to
Speaker 1: be to have a public presence, but that that feeling
Speaker 1: of being compelled has never actually led me to do
Speaker 1: anything that I'm uncomfortable with because at the end of
Speaker 1: the day, I know that I have control over what
Speaker 1: I choose to share with people and how I choose
Speaker 1: to share it. So I have found myself telling myself
Speaker 1: that I want to share more, but if that doesn't
Speaker 1: show up right in my body, then I don't do it,
Speaker 1: so I have shared more in the places where I
Speaker 1: feel most comfortable, which for me oftentimes that is if
Speaker 1: it's on social media, then that's in the Instagram space.
Speaker 1: But if that's outside on the internet, like you know,
Speaker 1: just the articles that I write in the podcast that
Speaker 1: I produce, those are spaces where I know that I
Speaker 1: have creative more creative control, and they're subject to scrutiny
Speaker 1: in different ways, or at least more measured scrutiny. I
Speaker 1: don't think I have a personal brand either, but I
Speaker 1: think maybe one has been construct it for me and
Speaker 1: my chosen interest. Actually, speaking of this bridget we've talked
Speaker 1: about this before in the title of public intellectual and
Speaker 1: how that's something that is like I would be labeled
Speaker 1: as regardless whether or.
Speaker 6: Not I would choose to call myself that.
Speaker 5: I mean, you are one.
Speaker 4: I don't think somebody comes down from the sky. And
Speaker 4: as like Eves, I w a public intellectual.
Speaker 5: You are one.
Speaker 4: You publicly opined and have good takes and good opinions,
Speaker 4: and you're part of the public conversation and people look
Speaker 4: to you. The people who are listening to on theme,
Speaker 4: they listen to the both of you to help them understand,
Speaker 4: you know, what they should be help shape their own opinions,
Speaker 4: and so yeah, I think.
Speaker 5: You are a public intellectual.
Speaker 4: Even if you don't feel like you would ever call
Speaker 4: yourself one, you both definitely are.
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm getting a therapy session right now
Speaker 1: for helping me work through some things.
Speaker 5: Well.
Speaker 4: Also, think about all the kinds of people who wouldn't
Speaker 4: feel like I just know a lot of people who
Speaker 4: are like, oh, I'm a X Y Z expert, and
Speaker 4: I'm like, oh, I feel like experts the kind of
Speaker 4: thing that other people have to call you.
Speaker 5: It's you're calling yourself one.
Speaker 4: That's interesting, and I think more people who have actual
Speaker 4: good things to offer the world should take ownership of
Speaker 4: those labels that mean so much.
Speaker 2: So, what would you say you're an expert in?
Speaker 4: Oh? God, nothing, No, that's not true. I am an
Speaker 4: expert in this is a good question. I am an
Speaker 4: expert in curiosity. I know that's kind of a cop
Speaker 4: out answer, but you know, like, that's one of the
Speaker 4: reasons why I love podcasting is that you really just
Speaker 4: get to poke and product people. And you know, Katie,
Speaker 4: you said something earlier and Eves was like, Oh, tell
Speaker 4: me more about that. If there was a question that
Speaker 4: animates my entire existence in this world and is probably
Speaker 4: tell me more about that, because I am just genuinely
Speaker 4: very curious about who people are, what motivates them, their values,
Speaker 4: where they see themselves, how see the world.
Speaker 5: So I think I'm an expert in curiosity.
Speaker 1: So you have your own personal experience with personal branding,
Speaker 1: but when you see other people and the ways that
Speaker 1: they choose to personal brand in public, what are your
Speaker 1: feelings about that? Like, do you have any sort of
Speaker 1: initial emotions that come up when you think of the
Speaker 1: ways that people have to personal brand on the Internet.
Speaker 4: I don't know if anybody can relate to this feeling,
Speaker 4: But lately I have made a lot of intentional efforts
Speaker 4: to sort of step back and be a little more
Speaker 4: selective about my how my own brand shows up online,
Speaker 4: and also I've made the choice to care a little
Speaker 4: bit less about it and say, like, if I want
Speaker 4: to be a kick ass podcaster, I'm going to lean
Speaker 4: into podcasting and the personal branding stuff can come second,
Speaker 4: and that's okay. However, lately I have felt like when
Speaker 4: I scroll social media, I am just constantly being bombarded
Speaker 4: with the ways that I'm getting it wrong the ways
Speaker 4: that I'm like, oh, you're not making reels, you should
Speaker 4: be making tiktoks like this. You should be offering your
Speaker 4: your audience. If you want to grow, do that. And
Speaker 4: I think part of that is just the nature of
Speaker 4: social media algorithms. It seems like every other month at
Speaker 4: a mos Aria, the head of Instagram will be like, oh, well,
Speaker 4: last month we told creators if they wanted to use
Speaker 4: Instagram to the best of their ability, they should be
Speaker 4: doing X.
Speaker 5: Now it's why.
Speaker 4: And I realized that I just have no interest in
Speaker 4: being on this hamster wheel while where I have to be,
Speaker 4: you know, responding to the whims of billionaires who run
Speaker 4: tech platforms who I will never meet, right, And so
Speaker 4: I've made that decision for myself. But I don't feel
Speaker 4: like it's very easy to sit in that choice all
Speaker 4: the time, because constantly I'm bombarded by people who are
Speaker 4: doing it right or have the answer, or want to
Speaker 4: sell me the answer. I often find other people's personal
Speaker 4: branding a little bit exhausting, and it's so just like
Speaker 4: me projecting my own insecurities and anxiety around it onto them,
Speaker 4: like they're not doing anything wrong. But it sometimes it
Speaker 4: seems hard to just exist online without constantly branding yourself
Speaker 4: and constantly selling people on who you are. Like, whatever
Speaker 4: happened to kicking it online or having fun online or
Speaker 4: finding community online in a way that wasn't like just
Speaker 4: intentionally branding yourself as some sort of expert in your field.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but that also makes me think about how corporations
Speaker 1: and commercial institutions, how their anxieties and their issues have
Speaker 1: been projected onto us, and how we've kind of had
Speaker 1: to co op them in our own efforts to survive
Speaker 1: and live in this world. And I'm wondering if you
Speaker 1: see any differences in the way that Black people have
Speaker 1: had to operate in that space of being forced to
Speaker 1: personal brand to live, and how people of other races
Speaker 1: have operated in that space.
Speaker 6: Do you feel differently about them? Do you see a
Speaker 6: difference between the two.
Speaker 4: I do see a difference. I think the stakes are
Speaker 4: different for us, you know. I mean, I think historically
Speaker 4: we have a lot less access, So we have a
Speaker 4: lot less access to platforms and spaces and traditional media outlets,
Speaker 4: and we've really had to build our own platforms and
Speaker 4: spaces and media outlets. If you want to be heard
Speaker 4: and want to be able to show up as our
Speaker 4: authentic selves.
Speaker 5: That is a gift.
Speaker 4: That is a gift that we as black folks have
Speaker 4: always had, is building our own tables when we're not
Speaker 4: invited to other people's stables, Right, So I want to
Speaker 4: honor the fact that that is a truly a gift
Speaker 4: and a legacy.
Speaker 5: So I'm not knocking that.
Speaker 4: However, I think that because of that, we kind of
Speaker 4: always have to be doing that, and like there's a
Speaker 4: feeling that if you stop doing that, you'll cease to
Speaker 4: exist or you'll cease to get those opportunities. And I
Speaker 4: actually really do believe that. I think that if I
Speaker 4: were to take a year off of social media or
Speaker 4: a year off of making my podcast, I think that
Speaker 4: it would be that much harder for me to come
Speaker 4: back because people will be like, oh, what, like, in
Speaker 4: that year, I didn't see you constantly posting what awards
Speaker 4: you were winning, or constantly and posting what content you
Speaker 4: were making, So I guess you didn't exist, right, And
Speaker 4: So I think that because of these because of the
Speaker 4: way that historically we have been shut out of that
Speaker 4: kind of access, I think it creates this kind of
Speaker 4: need to be doing something that luckily we're quite good at,
Speaker 4: which is building our own platforms, And I just, yeah,
Speaker 4: I just want to make sure that when we talk
Speaker 4: about that, we're talking about it in a way that
Speaker 4: both honors how great that is, but also is tuned
Speaker 4: into how tough that can be, that feeling can be,
Speaker 4: to be like, oh, I can't even take a break
Speaker 4: for a moment, I always have to be branding.
Speaker 1: Yeah, if we're already black people, is the way I'm
Speaker 1: talking about already subject to so much scrutiny because even
Speaker 1: when we're visible in the very smallest of ways. So
Speaker 1: what do you think that kind of loop of visibility,
Speaker 1: of having to be present at all times just by
Speaker 1: nature of the Internet, but also because we're black, How
Speaker 1: does does that affect like how we are treated in
Speaker 1: terms of our visibility and hyper visibility.
Speaker 4: Hypervisibility is a good word for it, because it's like,
Speaker 4: as black folks who show up online, we're both hyper visible,
Speaker 4: but in a lot of ways erased or overlooked. And
Speaker 4: it's just very interesting to me how you can sort.
Speaker 5: Of be both.
Speaker 4: I've had accomplishments in my life where things happen in
Speaker 4: my life that I don't put on social media and
Speaker 4: people act like they don't exist, and so I'm really
Speaker 4: challenging myself to sort of resist that internally. And I
Speaker 4: really think about this quote from MICHAELA. Cole when I
Speaker 4: think she won an Emmy, and she said, in a
Speaker 4: world that entices us to browse through the lives of
Speaker 4: others to help us better determine how we feel about ourselves,
Speaker 4: and to in turn feel the need to be constantly visible.
Speaker 4: For visibility these days seems to somehow equate to success.
Speaker 4: Do not be afraid to disappear from it, from us
Speaker 4: for a while and see what comes to you in
Speaker 4: the silence. And I have always found so much power
Speaker 4: in that quote, because when you have that silence and
Speaker 4: that space where there aren't eyes on you, for me,
Speaker 4: that has equated to really making something I'm proud of,
Speaker 4: or really being able to lean into something right.
Speaker 5: And so I think that in a.
Speaker 4: World that tells us that visibility is success, not being
Speaker 4: afraid to step back and go invisible, go dark for
Speaker 4: a little bit, you know, I think it's really powerful
Speaker 4: to be able to do that and understand what the
Speaker 4: power in that in a world that tells you always have.
Speaker 5: To be showing yourself and branding yourself more.
Speaker 1: With bridget after this break. Have you ever taken a
Speaker 1: social media break?
Speaker 5: Oh? All the time? I mean I'm not. I'm not
Speaker 5: somebody who will be like, hey, guys taking a.
Speaker 3: Break, Like like, nobody cares, my girl.
Speaker 2: You could have kept that to yourself'll take a nap, right, Like.
Speaker 1: We wouldn't have known if that was the algorithm or
Speaker 1: them taking a break anyway.
Speaker 4: I definitely take long breaks, short breaks, all the breaks
Speaker 4: from social media, and I don't feel the need to
Speaker 4: announce it. But isn't it so weird that you would
Speaker 4: even feel the need to announce it, Like there's like
Speaker 4: how many other things in your life. If you stop
Speaker 4: doing it for a week or a month, would people
Speaker 4: be like, oh, are you okay?
Speaker 5: What's going on with you?
Speaker 4: Like if you didn't play a certain game for a month,
Speaker 4: do you think that you would feel the need to
Speaker 4: like announce that to the world. I just think that
Speaker 4: that really, to me illustrates how we're so caught up
Speaker 4: in this idea that everybody, everybody has to be on
Speaker 4: social media all the time, and that you know that's
Speaker 4: not true, Like you can dip in, dip out, do
Speaker 4: it as it feels comfortable and right to you, and
Speaker 4: truly nothing will happen.
Speaker 3: I think that also goes to the difference between personal
Speaker 3: branding online versus personal branding like IRL, because I don't
Speaker 3: think people paid that much more. People pay more attention
Speaker 3: to the online then like there in person presence. So
Speaker 3: like you're going to think about like what outfit you're
Speaker 3: posting when you're posting online, and you're going to craft
Speaker 3: your caption really well, and you're going to like have
Speaker 3: all this thought. But when you're out in the streets,
Speaker 3: you're looking a mess, You've got a bond it on,
Speaker 3: and you're talking crazy to the people at American Deli,
Speaker 3: Like you're not really thinking too much about your personal brand.
Speaker 1: And when people apologize for that, they do it online,
Speaker 1: like when they apologize for their public presence. I've seen
Speaker 1: people say I had to where I couldn't go outside
Speaker 1: today because I wasn't. They'll say things about like wearing makeup,
Speaker 1: or wearing a bond it out or not being dressed
Speaker 1: to the nons, you know, not having their faces beat
Speaker 1: and apologize for that because they know that might show
Speaker 1: up online in a certain way, but not necessarily because
Speaker 1: they care about how that personal interaction in real life went.
Speaker 6: So yeah.
Speaker 3: I mean, by the way, i'm pro bonnet outside just
Speaker 3: putting that up out.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying people will apologize for things like that
Speaker 1: because they want to be perceived a certain way, because
Speaker 1: they know their brand will show up.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it's like the personal branding, Yeah, I'd like
Speaker 3: the obsession with it doesn't really for I think for
Speaker 3: most people, it doesn't show up outside unless you're like
Speaker 3: on a panel or at a conference, but like just
Speaker 3: how you move every day, I don't see that as much.
Speaker 4: There is this weird kind of collapse that I see
Speaker 4: between in real life and online evens where it's like, yeah,
Speaker 4: somebody might have an interaction offline that is in some
Speaker 4: ways authentically them because they're not branding it. It's just happening,
Speaker 4: you know, off the cuff or whatever, and then go
Speaker 4: online to talk about that interaction in a way that
Speaker 4: is part of the brand. It's so interesting how these
Speaker 4: online and offline realities have kind of collapsed. And I
Speaker 4: do think that if something like in a lot of ways,
Speaker 4: the digital realm has become more real than reality in
Speaker 4: some ways where it only sort of matters how it
Speaker 4: shows up online, or how it's branded online and how
Speaker 4: it shows up in reality is a lot In a
Speaker 4: lot of cases, it's a lot less important to folks.
Speaker 3: I think, yeah, for sure, are you familiar with the
Speaker 3: Google for faces pim eyes? Oh?
Speaker 2: Yes, so I just learned about that, I think last week.
Speaker 2: Are you familiar with the use?
Speaker 3: So it's basically like, if say I have a picture
Speaker 3: of you, and you can have a mask on, you
Speaker 3: can have your eyes closed, you can be like looking
Speaker 3: a different way. I can put that into that and
Speaker 3: it would show every instance where your face appears online,
Speaker 3: whether you posted it, whether you're just like in the
Speaker 3: background of somebody else's picture, just everything, And like learning
Speaker 3: about that really just like made me want to just
Speaker 3: go further away from not branding myself. Like I was, like,
Speaker 3: I want to remove every picture of myself from online,
Speaker 3: just because like I think when we first started doing this,
Speaker 3: I would say like for us, maybe like the early
Speaker 3: twenty tens, we had no idea like what the internet
Speaker 3: was going to be, and so like now in twenty
Speaker 3: twenty four, I feel like we still don't have a
Speaker 3: true idea, but we see a little bit more and
Speaker 3: to me, it's like very scary what the internet is
Speaker 3: about to be.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I completely agree.
Speaker 4: You know, I think I might be a little older
Speaker 4: than both of you, But I remember when I first
Speaker 4: got Facebook. I was an undergrad in college and I
Speaker 4: graduated college in two thousand and seven, two thousand and seven,
Speaker 4: and this was when the main thing was like, you
Speaker 4: are connecting with your friends, You are going out to
Speaker 4: a nightclub, you are taking.
Speaker 5: A thousand pictures from.
Speaker 4: That single outing, posting all of them pistays, and all
Speaker 4: of them for sure pit stains. Yeah, like albums, right,
Speaker 4: And so I think that was sort of that the heyday,
Speaker 4: when we really really kind of it was easy to
Speaker 4: think of this as something that was about connection. Here
Speaker 4: in twenty twenty four, I don't think that anybody feels
Speaker 4: like social media platforms are offering us genuine connection anymore.
Speaker 4: I think what they're offering us is exploitation. I think
Speaker 4: what they're offering us is anxiety. I think what they're
Speaker 4: offering us is surveillance, criminalization, all kinds of things. And
Speaker 4: I think that you know that idea of connecting with
Speaker 4: your friends, even if you look at your if you
Speaker 4: if you open Instagram right now and scroll your you know.
Speaker 5: Whatever their version of their feed.
Speaker 4: A lot of the stuff that you're being shown is
Speaker 4: it from your friends or people that you've opted to follow.
Speaker 4: It's algorithmically generated content that they want you to see
Speaker 4: that they think that you might like, right, And so
Speaker 4: I think that what is I think we should be
Speaker 4: asking what that means for our role in all of this,
Speaker 4: how we fit into that if social media platforms are
Speaker 4: going to go to a place where it's more about
Speaker 4: like surfacing you content than connection.
Speaker 5: So if you're no longer connecting with your.
Speaker 4: Friends, are we all like Katie Eves and Bridget are
Speaker 4: we all now de facto content creators?
Speaker 5: Or or what like? Are we the audience here?
Speaker 4: I think that we really need to have a more
Speaker 4: refined role in how we fit into this because the
Speaker 4: two thousand and six, two thousand and seven, two thousand
Speaker 4: and eight days are like way behind us in terms
Speaker 4: of how this is all working.
Speaker 3: We're living in president at times, but we've been doing
Speaker 3: so for for a while now. It's not like, oh,
Speaker 3: we have like one one event that happens. It's like
Speaker 3: ooh that was unpresidented, Glad that's over. It's just like
Speaker 3: all of it, like the evolution of it is just like,
Speaker 3: oh my god, like what's the next what are.
Speaker 2: We going to do?
Speaker 3: And as a podcaster, Bridget, I'm interested in getting your
Speaker 3: take on like who owns our personal brands? Because it
Speaker 3: sounds like, oh, it's our personal brand, we own it.
Speaker 2: But you know, like as.
Speaker 3: Contractors, like do we own those or is it you
Speaker 3: know XYZ Corporation media conglomerate that owns our personal branding?
Speaker 2: What do you think about that?
Speaker 5: Well?
Speaker 4: As a company girl, I have to shout out the
Speaker 4: good folks that iHeart radio definitely own my brand and
Speaker 4: all of the things that come with it.
Speaker 5: No, I'm kidding.
Speaker 4: I mean I think your question is it's like a
Speaker 4: really good one. I am I might be a weird
Speaker 4: person to ask because I'm particular about ownership, right If
Speaker 4: you ever watched that show Breaking Bad and Walter White,
Speaker 4: one of the reasons it's like revealed by that one
Speaker 4: of the reasons why he's so weird about his meth
Speaker 4: recipe is that he was cut out of a cut
Speaker 4: out of a deal when he was a scientist and
Speaker 4: he didn't have ownership over a product that he made,
Speaker 4: and it like stuck with him. I kind of feel
Speaker 4: like that's a little bit of my origin story too,
Speaker 4: where I am a real I am very particular about ownership.
Speaker 4: I would rather get screwed on the money and have
Speaker 4: more ownership of something. I don't know if that's like
Speaker 4: the best choice, but part of it is because of
Speaker 4: that discomfort around who owns what. I just hate the
Speaker 4: idea that something that I create right, something that I conceptualized,
Speaker 4: that I put my heart and soul into, that came
Speaker 4: from me, that was that was colored by all of
Speaker 4: the experiences that I have brought with me to this world,
Speaker 4: that somebody else could be like, oh well, that's just
Speaker 4: another point in our annual sales meeting about how we're
Speaker 4: doing right. So like I am very I'm like very
Speaker 4: weird about that kind of thing, and I do. I mean,
Speaker 4: I've had situations where the line of ownership who owns
Speaker 4: what about me and my work and my brand isn't
Speaker 4: so clear, And so these days I'm trying to really
Speaker 4: move through the creative professional world with a lot more
Speaker 4: clarity about where the lines are about who owns what about?
Speaker 4: You know, who has the final say, who has control,
Speaker 4: who makes the money all of that because I think
Speaker 4: it's I think you need to you know, I don't
Speaker 4: want to get too into it, but like when I
Speaker 4: was first coming up in podcasting, I've signed some deals
Speaker 4: that I wish I had looked at a little closer,
Speaker 4: because I would see, like, oh, I'm I'm inherently, both
Speaker 4: in the work and on paper, just generating stuff for
Speaker 4: other people. And so no matter how much of myself
Speaker 4: I put into that, I'm only going to ever be
Speaker 4: generating for others as supposed to generating for myself. And
Speaker 4: so yeah, I feel a bit burned on that in
Speaker 4: some ways and really trying to move now with a
Speaker 4: little more clarity around it, but again as creative. So
Speaker 4: it'd be really curious how you all are navigating that
Speaker 4: as well.
Speaker 5: Well.
Speaker 6: I was just about to say you are.
Speaker 1: You would not be the only person to say that, Bridget,
Speaker 1: And I think it's like comforting to hear that coming
Speaker 1: from you, a person who's worked on so many podcasts,
Speaker 1: because these deals were happening then and they're still happening now,
Speaker 1: and yeah, I think pretty difficult to navigate because if
Speaker 1: you're working with the company, there's going to be some
Speaker 1: trade offs, and the question is that you have to
Speaker 1: ask yourself, like what are those trade offs to you?
Speaker 6: And what are the most important parts of it to you?
Speaker 1: Those questions are often about ownership, and I think that
Speaker 1: I in the past have not been like competent enough,
Speaker 1: or I haven't had the team on my side, like
Speaker 1: a good lawyer on my side to be able to
Speaker 1: tell me what the right things were. So I've been
Speaker 1: able to learn from crowdsourcing and the sharing of information,
Speaker 1: which has been amazing.
Speaker 4: Information is power. If anybody listening wants like DM me,
Speaker 4: I will, I will give you my contracts, I'll give
Speaker 4: you my lawyer's name, right, Like It's the only way
Speaker 4: that we will ever take up more space in this
Speaker 4: industry is if we share information. This mindset that like, oh,
Speaker 4: we have to be cling to what you have because
Speaker 4: you don't want her to get it or her to
Speaker 4: get it. That's complete bullshit, Like there's enough room for
Speaker 4: all of us. We need to have that mindset, and
Speaker 4: we will all win and rise up when we share
Speaker 4: information with each other.
Speaker 5: And yeah, I to that point.
Speaker 4: He's like, whenever I see companies that are hosting, like, oh,
Speaker 4: we're doing a contest where if you submit your idea,
Speaker 4: maybe we'll make your show. I'm always like in the
Speaker 4: Instagram comments like, Hey, what's the ownership look like?
Speaker 5: What's the IP look like? Great contest? Like do they
Speaker 5: own it?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 5: How does it work? What's the adsplit?
Speaker 4: Yay?
Speaker 5: Like that's me in the comments asking those questions.
Speaker 3: I was at a festival and they had one of
Speaker 3: those like activations like picture podcasts.
Speaker 5: I was like, don't do.
Speaker 4: Good.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think for black people in podcasting and
Speaker 1: in writing in general, I've come up against that question
Speaker 1: of like what I choose to share and what I
Speaker 1: don't choose to share because as a creator, it's it's
Speaker 1: like the generative process and a part of the process
Speaker 1: that there can be fear around. But it can be
Speaker 1: important to share certain things and to not be afraid
Speaker 1: to put yourself out there all the time. But especially
Speaker 1: as black creators in American media, it's important for us
Speaker 1: to protect ourselves and the work that we create. So
Speaker 1: it can definitely be a fine line to tiptoe. We'll
Speaker 1: be back with more conversation with bridget after this break.
Speaker 3: I think it goes beyond just sharing information, honestly, Like
Speaker 3: I can speak to it from the book publishing side
Speaker 3: of it. And I'm getting like less than fifteen percent
Speaker 3: of list price.
Speaker 2: And I have done all the work on this book.
Speaker 3: I thought of the idea, I've gotten all the people together,
Speaker 3: I'm designing it and I'm not a designer, but I'm
Speaker 3: like showing the designer everything that I want to do.
Speaker 3: I've written everything, I travel, you know, all these things,
Speaker 3: and I'm getting less than fifteen percent of list price.
Speaker 3: So like even if I told somebody that coming in,
Speaker 3: like if I said, ease, I'm getting this much like okay,
Speaker 3: like maybe you can get like one more person, but
Speaker 3: like I don't know, I don't think like that's truly
Speaker 3: going to make a change. And like a lot of
Speaker 3: people's books are very personal, Like I don't know if
Speaker 3: y'all read the memoir Heavy by Kisa Leiman, but it's
Speaker 3: like a very personal book. And the books you've written before,
Speaker 3: it's like got one thousand dollars total for those books,
Speaker 3: And it's like this is the publishing industry, Like this
Speaker 3: is what they do, like even if you're going to
Speaker 3: be a really big name. So I think it goes
Speaker 3: beyond sharing information and like actually, like you said, like
Speaker 3: making our own thing and like having it cooperatively owned
Speaker 3: and not like wanting to like cozy up with these
Speaker 3: like big companies, which I know is like so like
Speaker 3: hard to not think is really cool. But I feel
Speaker 3: like every time I think something's really cool and I'm like, fuck,
Speaker 3: this isn't cool.
Speaker 4: It's not no, you know what, you know, those big
Speaker 4: companies aren't cool.
Speaker 5: You know what's cool? Katie's cool, Like you know, you're cool,
Speaker 5: like it.
Speaker 4: It's such a weird it's such a you're so right,
Speaker 4: it's such a hard thing to turn off that being
Speaker 4: associated with x y Z big brand or big company
Speaker 4: or big publisher or big network or whatever that is going.
Speaker 5: To make me feel successful. And it's just not true.
Speaker 4: And it's like half the time those deals don't look
Speaker 4: as shawny as they as they appear on the outside
Speaker 4: on Instagram. Right, And you're so right that I think
Speaker 4: it's not just information sharing. It goes beyond that of like,
Speaker 4: here's the reality of what it looked like for me
Speaker 4: to work with this company, so that you can decide
Speaker 4: if it's worth it for you to work with this
Speaker 4: company to only get X y Z of the price, right,
Speaker 4: And I agree, I think it really has to go
Speaker 4: back to building more abundant models for us to put
Speaker 4: our stories and ideas out there that don't involve having
Speaker 4: to cozy up with companies just because they have a
Speaker 4: big name but a terrible reputation about how they treat people.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I also think it goes back to the
Speaker 3: personal branding, because I will be the first tie to say, like,
Speaker 3: I'm like a I like making an announcement about my book,
Speaker 3: Like I have a book deal with the biggest publisher
Speaker 3: in the world, and it's just like, well, and I'm
Speaker 3: not going to be like and I'm getting like shitty
Speaker 3: royalties and like all this stuff like all that, you know,
Speaker 3: because I want to get my Instagram like so off
Speaker 3: and for people to buy the book to tell me congratulations.
Speaker 3: I think it goes back to like the personal branding,
Speaker 3: like yeah.
Speaker 1: And that makes me think about just going back to
Speaker 1: our initial ideas around this about how personal branding is
Speaker 1: a form of storytelling. We craft a certain story about
Speaker 1: ourselves when we're telling our personal brands. We choose to
Speaker 1: give this, we choose not to give that. And I
Speaker 1: pulled a definition from personal brand dot Com, which I
Speaker 1: had no idea existed before this episode, but they specifically, say,
Speaker 1: a personal brand is a widely recognized and largely uniform
Speaker 1: perception or impression of an individual based on their experience, expertise, competencies, actions, YadA, YadA, YadA.
Speaker 6: All the rest of that definition. You can go look
Speaker 6: it up. But the point.
Speaker 1: Is is that it's clearly a crafted thing. It is
Speaker 1: when we create our personal brands, we are thinking. We're
Speaker 1: being intentional about what we choose to share and what
Speaker 1: we don't based on how we want to be seen.
Speaker 1: So I know that we've used the word authentic a
Speaker 1: couple of times in this conversation. I was wondering, Bridget,
Speaker 1: if you think it's even possible for us to be
Speaker 1: authentic and maintain a sense of self in how we
Speaker 1: express ourselves when we are doing this personal branding.
Speaker 5: Oh, absolutely not.
Speaker 4: I mean I think I think, based on the definition
Speaker 4: that you just read that I agree with and our
Speaker 4: conversation here, I think it's I mean, I don't think
Speaker 4: it's a lie.
Speaker 5: You know, when Katie says like.
Speaker 4: Oh, I have this great book, deal with this great
Speaker 4: publisher and all of that, leaving out the bit about
Speaker 4: the parts that maybe aren't so exciting that she's not
Speaker 4: doesn't not thrilled about.
Speaker 5: That's not a lie. It's just selective.
Speaker 4: It's just you're only getting a partial view into it
Speaker 4: that Katie wants to control, right, And that makes all
Speaker 4: the sense in the world. So I don't think it's
Speaker 4: I don't think it's inauthentic to mean dishonest, but I
Speaker 4: do think it's selective and we should all like have
Speaker 4: that in our minds when we're scrolling Instagram, you know
Speaker 4: every day that we're not getting the full lens into
Speaker 4: whatever whatever is actually going on with you. But when
Speaker 4: they're branding themselves online, like I'm not giving my full
Speaker 4: self and how these things feel for me when I'm
Speaker 4: branding myself, and I don't think the people that I'm
Speaker 4: consuming their content.
Speaker 5: I don't think that they are either.
Speaker 4: And I would also add, like, I think that it's
Speaker 4: really important to be branding yourself online if you're a
Speaker 4: person making something in twenty twenty four. However, I think
Speaker 4: that I've really found power in doing it, understanding that
Speaker 4: I have to do it, but then not really putting
Speaker 4: too much stock into it because how many likes my
Speaker 4: stuff gets or whatever it feels good. Like it's like
Speaker 4: a like who doesn't like it when they're when like
Speaker 4: all their friends are in the comments like gay, good job.
Speaker 4: But you really have to like have a sense of
Speaker 4: what success looks like, like what nourishment looks like for you. Right, So,
Speaker 4: Like I know stories that I want to tell, the
Speaker 4: work I want to put out. I know how closely
Speaker 4: it aligns with my actual values. Those are the kinds
Speaker 4: of things that make me feel like a successful creative.
Speaker 4: And I have to be really clear about that. They that,
Speaker 4: like are the benchmarks of success for me? And what
Speaker 4: are not the benchmarks of success for me?
Speaker 5: What just like feels.
Speaker 4: Good and if I'm having a bad day might give
Speaker 4: me a pickup, right, And so I think it's important
Speaker 4: to not conflate those two things.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I also think it's important to acknowledge how that
Speaker 1: self selection, even though we have agency when we're doing it,
Speaker 1: it can also be exhausting. Like just because we're doing
Speaker 1: something we have control over doesn't mean that it doesn't
Speaker 1: also take like a mental and spiritual toll on us
Speaker 1: having to segment those parts of ourselves. Because black people
Speaker 1: we have to compartmentalize in so many different ways already.
Speaker 1: We have to be respectable sometimes, you know, we have
Speaker 1: to tone shift. We have to do so many different
Speaker 1: things of like how we think about how we appear
Speaker 1: to other people in order to ensure our safety. So
Speaker 1: when we self select in doing that and personal branding,
Speaker 1: I think some of those things can also come up
Speaker 1: around how it takes a toll on our bodies and
Speaker 1: how it takes a toll on our spirits. And I
Speaker 1: think that is also an important thing to acknowledge, because
Speaker 1: both of those things can exist at the same time.
Speaker 5: I'm so glad you said that.
Speaker 4: And yeah, and it's so funny that you could be
Speaker 4: crafting and in control of your personal brand, but still
Speaker 4: very aware of like needing or wanting to come off
Speaker 4: as a certain way, like more palatable or something.
Speaker 5: And it's like, if there's ever a time where you
Speaker 5: should be the person in.
Speaker 4: Control of how you show up, it's like your little
Speaker 4: corner of the Internet.
Speaker 5: But I don't feel that way. I wonder if you
Speaker 5: all feel that way.
Speaker 4: You know, I don't really want to be in spaces
Speaker 4: where I have to show up a certain way in
Speaker 4: order to be accepted there. However, even as I curate
Speaker 4: my little corner of my personal brand Internet, I am
Speaker 4: aware of that sort that sort of double consciousness that
Speaker 4: you're talking about.
Speaker 3: I think, Yeah, I feel like if I truly showed
Speaker 3: up how I am, I would be on like an
Speaker 3: FBI's most Wanted list.
Speaker 5: We'd all have black black pillowcases in some secret room.
Speaker 2: Like, girl, I ain't even trying to get that deep
Speaker 2: with y'all for real.
Speaker 1: Like, and then are often times of dissonance for me
Speaker 1: where I feel like I'm branded a certain I can
Speaker 1: go look at my website. Y'all know I'm Southern. Y'all
Speaker 1: know I'm gonna say y'all, y'all know I'm gonna be
Speaker 1: in front of things. And then like you know, when
Speaker 1: I'm in certain rooms, I mean, that's how I am,
Speaker 1: That's my personality oftentimes, but you know that excuse me, yeah,
Speaker 1: but that that there's a dissonance between my brand and
Speaker 1: like how I do show up in some ways, not
Speaker 1: necessarily because I am cutting off parts of myself, just
Speaker 1: because I'm multiple people, Like I'm different ways in different places.
Speaker 1: So also speaking of being multiple people and showing up
Speaker 1: in different ways, I would have never expected you Bridget
Speaker 1: to align yourself with Walter White.
Speaker 6: But so that's something I wasn't expecting you to say.
Speaker 1: There is one thing I wanted to say, just that
Speaker 1: I think we would be remiss or I would be
Speaker 1: remiss not to say that you were part of information
Speaker 1: sharing for us, Bridget as we were doing this podcast,
Speaker 1: Like you shared your contract with us. So when y'all
Speaker 1: hear Bridget say that, know that she's telling the truth.
Speaker 1: I would do the same. You know, anybody can come
Speaker 1: to me. I will be transparent about that. And I
Speaker 1: can't solve all your problems.
Speaker 6: I'm not a lawyer.
Speaker 1: I don't know intellectual property law. You know, there are
Speaker 1: other people who would need to be on your support team,
Speaker 1: but I would be happy to be of whatever kind
Speaker 1: of assistance.
Speaker 6: I would like to be.
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, this is my favorite topic. Like I
Speaker 4: will tell you how much money I make, down to
Speaker 4: the penny. I will like, like, I'm curious about other
Speaker 4: creatives how much money they make. There's so much smoke
Speaker 4: and mirrors, so like I want to know how much
Speaker 4: your house cost. I will ask the question, and I'm
Speaker 4: happy to give that information back to others.
Speaker 3: And now it is time for role credits, the segment
Speaker 3: where we give credit to a person, place, or thing,
Speaker 3: and we have Bridget joining us, But first Eves who
Speaker 3: are what would you like to give credit to today?
Speaker 1: I would like to give credit to t I'm not
Speaker 1: a big coffee drinker, and I didn't become a big
Speaker 1: warm tea specifically.
Speaker 6: I'm an iced tea hater, so don't ask me why.
Speaker 1: I don't like sweet tea and I'm from the South,
Speaker 1: but I love hot tea.
Speaker 6: I love drinking green tea in the morning.
Speaker 1: I like macha, but I like other kinds of tea too,
Speaker 1: And I can somehow handle the caffeine from tea, but
Speaker 1: I can't handle the caffeine from coffee.
Speaker 6: It makes me very dittery. But I love tea.
Speaker 1: I like get and tea when I'm in different places.
Speaker 1: And I don't know as much about it as I
Speaker 1: would like to like. I would like to learn a
Speaker 1: lot more. I know people who are master herbalists when
Speaker 1: it comes to tea. But yeah, I want to give
Speaker 1: a shout out to tea today.
Speaker 2: Okay, Tea, what's tea? Brigit? What you've given a shout
Speaker 2: out to given credit to me?
Speaker 4: I'm going to give a shout out to journaling. I
Speaker 4: have not been one to journal that often. I'm kind
Speaker 4: of on and off. But I had a weird kind
Speaker 4: of personal professional situation and I went back and was
Speaker 4: reading my journal entries about it because I was like,
Speaker 4: am I Am I being crazy here in reading my
Speaker 4: journal entries. I like, no, actually, I'm being I'm very
Speaker 4: clear on how I feel. And if I had not
Speaker 4: written down how I felt through the situation, I think
Speaker 4: I would have really second guessed myself and dabted myself.
Speaker 4: And so yeah, I don't I want to give it
Speaker 4: up to journaling.
Speaker 5: Keep a journal.
Speaker 3: I would like to give credit to neighbors. I live
Speaker 3: in a neighborhood where most of the people are like
Speaker 3: old and retired, and you know, they see a young
Speaker 3: hot bitch and they do you hate in a little bit.
Speaker 3: But this past weekend they were not hating, and they
Speaker 3: invited me over to their shindig that they have every
Speaker 3: week and they never invite me to but they seem
Speaker 3: nice and they kind of were just like, oh, like,
Speaker 3: we didn't know how to invite you. And you kind
Speaker 3: of forget that people are like weird and just like, oh,
Speaker 3: like you're weird, they're weird. Like maybe they y'all are
Speaker 3: both thinking weird things about each other. But it's fun
Speaker 3: when you like have that like neighborly bond with someone
Speaker 3: like you don't got to be friends, but like you
Speaker 3: can be like in community and like you know, borrow
Speaker 3: the lawnmower something. So give me credit to tea journaling
Speaker 3: and neighbors.
Speaker 1: All right, well then, Bridgie, can you tell everyone where
Speaker 1: they can find you on the internet.
Speaker 4: Be sure to listen to my podcast there are no
Speaker 4: girls on the Internet twice a week.
Speaker 5: You can find that on.
Speaker 4: Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And
Speaker 4: you can find me on Instagram at bridget Marie ndc Perfect.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 4: Thank you, this has been a dream. Thank you so
Speaker 4: much for having me, and honestly, thanks so much to
Speaker 4: you too. Congratulations to you and the whole team on
Speaker 4: launching on Theme. You know, thank you for what you're
Speaker 4: doing to elevate our stories. It's really such a beautiful
Speaker 4: special thing.
Speaker 3: So congratulations and we will see you next week.
Speaker 2: Bye.
Speaker 5: Hi.
Speaker 1: On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media.
Speaker 1: This episode written by Eves, Jeffco and Katie Mitchell. It
Speaker 1: was edited and produced by Tari Harrison. Follow us on
Speaker 1: Instagram at on themeshow. You can also send us an
Speaker 1: email at hello at on Theme dot show. Head to
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