WEBVTT - How Lie Detectors Work 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:02.840 Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera. 0:00:03.160 --> 0:00:07.560 It's ready. Are you welcome to Stuff you Should Know 0:00:08.160 --> 0:00:16.400 from House Stuff Works dot com? Hey, and welcome to 0:00:16.440 --> 0:00:19.480 the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. With me is always a 0:00:19.560 --> 0:00:24.319 child to beat? Chuck Bryant liar you you could tell 0:00:25.000 --> 0:00:27.640 there's the ways you can find out Chuck. Sure. Um, 0:00:27.680 --> 0:00:29.720 we'll get to that in a minute. There's stuff you 0:00:29.760 --> 0:00:32.840 should know. Let me finish. Okay, and it's you lie. 0:00:33.640 --> 0:00:38.240 Remember that guy Joe joey Pants or whatever the congressman's 0:00:38.280 --> 0:00:40.520 name was. Yeah, Saturday night Life. That is a funny 0:00:40.520 --> 0:00:42.800 skit that he had gotten a whole group of people 0:00:42.840 --> 0:00:45.960 that all stayed up at once, wasn't the deal? And 0:00:46.200 --> 0:00:48.360 well yeah, and he supposed he had a whole group 0:00:48.360 --> 0:00:50.400 of senators that we're gonna all stand up and yell 0:00:50.479 --> 0:00:53.360 you lie. And then he was the only one that 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:56.120 did it because he was out of the room when 0:00:56.120 --> 0:00:57.680 they were like, no, we can't do that. I think 0:00:57.680 --> 0:01:02.480 that will say that that's funny. Yeah. So um, we're 0:01:02.480 --> 0:01:04.880 talking about a lot of detectors. But let me take 0:01:04.920 --> 0:01:08.640 you back to a little place in time and space 0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:15.760 called the jazz age. Early nineteen twenties. Yeah, no, that's 0:01:15.840 --> 0:01:19.400 the beat Nicks that did that. Um, I'm sure a 0:01:19.480 --> 0:01:23.000 jazz person snapped their fingers at one point. Um, but 0:01:23.120 --> 0:01:27.839 not like that, right, It was more like like Coltrane style, 0:01:29.360 --> 0:01:34.520 just like that. Anyway. This is Chuck in Berkeley, California, 0:01:35.200 --> 0:01:38.080 at u c l A, Berkeley, And there is a 0:01:38.240 --> 0:01:42.000 place there called um the College Hall, which was a 0:01:42.040 --> 0:01:47.199 women's dorm. And in that year there were a theft, 0:01:47.280 --> 0:01:49.680 a string of there was a string of um thefts, 0:01:50.360 --> 0:01:55.960 cash rings, um, pretty much anything of value went missing 0:01:56.000 --> 0:01:59.200 for a little while there. And uh, there is a 0:01:59.240 --> 0:02:04.680 man working at the Berkeley Police Department, Okay, called College Hall. 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:07.400 There was a man working in the in the Berkeley 0:02:07.400 --> 0:02:10.280 Police Department. His name is John Larson. And John Larson 0:02:10.320 --> 0:02:14.680 was the first cop ever to have a PhD. And 0:02:14.840 --> 0:02:20.519 he had gotten interested in this device called a cardio 0:02:20.760 --> 0:02:25.160 newmo psychograph, which had been invented just a few years 0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:29.200 before by another guy named William Marston. And William Marson 0:02:29.360 --> 0:02:33.160 was a lawyer in a Harvard shrink and he also, 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:37.560 as an aside, created Wonder Woman with her Lasso of Truth. 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:42.440 He's the guy who invented the what's now called the polygraph. 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:45.560 But what about the Wonder Woman? He created Wonder Woman, 0:02:45.880 --> 0:02:49.200 the character he was kind of a renaissance man. But 0:02:49.240 --> 0:02:51.960 that's William Marson. John Larson works at the at the 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:54.919 Berkeley Police Department, and he's become interested in this thing, 0:02:55.120 --> 0:02:59.360 the cardio neumo psychograph, and he realizes, okay, this is 0:02:59.400 --> 0:03:03.160 a perfect chance to apply it. So he rounds up, 0:03:03.200 --> 0:03:06.000 you know, some suspects. He does some some normal police 0:03:06.040 --> 0:03:07.840 work and finds out who the suspects are in this 0:03:08.240 --> 0:03:10.920 in this hall, and he rounds him up, brings him 0:03:10.919 --> 0:03:12.920 down the station, and he starts hooking people up to 0:03:13.000 --> 0:03:16.560 this um, this machine. And he gets to this one woman, 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:22.359 her name is Helen Graham, and guilty, yes, pretty much 0:03:22.400 --> 0:03:24.480 is what he does. He goes U ms Graham, this 0:03:24.520 --> 0:03:27.079 machine is saying that you're that you took this, that 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:30.000 you you took the money, you know, did you? Um? 0:03:30.080 --> 0:03:32.480 And he said that he noted on the machine a 0:03:32.600 --> 0:03:35.480 sharp drop in blood pressure followed by a sudden rise. 0:03:36.000 --> 0:03:38.080 And then after that this woman flew into a rate. 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:41.760 She tried to attack the machine. She went crazy, so 0:03:41.840 --> 0:03:44.960 they they basically string her along for a few days 0:03:44.960 --> 0:03:47.960 and then finally she confesses and it's the first time 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:51.640 that a polygraph was ever used to to um solve 0:03:51.680 --> 0:03:54.800 a crime. Ever, that that was probably the heyday because 0:03:54.920 --> 0:03:57.040 before the people knew what it was, they could just 0:03:57.080 --> 0:03:59.800 say this machine says that you're guilty, and they would be, 0:04:00.320 --> 0:04:04.640 oh my god, that's exactly right. Very early on, some 0:04:04.720 --> 0:04:07.400 of the early proponents, specifically a guy named a Leonard 0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:12.240 keeler Um recognized the placebo effect value before anyone knew 0:04:12.240 --> 0:04:14.760 there was a placebo effect. That the placebo effect value 0:04:14.920 --> 0:04:18.719 of a polygraph. That just the idea if you believed 0:04:18.760 --> 0:04:22.000 in this machine and that it could rude outlies, then 0:04:22.440 --> 0:04:25.120 it could force you to confess. Just being hooked up 0:04:25.120 --> 0:04:27.200 to it, you weren't going to pass it. They should 0:04:27.200 --> 0:04:30.200 have called it the guilt box. They called it the 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:32.960 magic lie detector is one of the one of the 0:04:32.960 --> 0:04:35.120 facts that they called it. Yeah, Leonard Keiler called it that. 0:04:35.200 --> 0:04:38.000 He worked with John Larson at the Berkeley Police Department, 0:04:38.320 --> 0:04:41.960 and eventually, over time John Larson saw the what he 0:04:42.080 --> 0:04:44.920 considered the truth behind the lie detector and the fact 0:04:44.920 --> 0:04:47.320 that it kept being cold light detector, which is driving 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:51.400 him crazy um and he eventually distanced himself from it. 0:04:51.520 --> 0:04:54.480 Later on in his career. UM, but Leonard Keeler ran 0:04:54.480 --> 0:04:57.760 around marketing it to anyone and everyone, saying, just having 0:04:57.800 --> 0:05:01.719 this is going to not only help you hire um, 0:05:02.120 --> 0:05:06.599 more more truthful, forthright people, but it's going to keep 0:05:06.640 --> 0:05:08.480 them in line while they're working for you, because they 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:10.480 know you've got access to this thing and you can 0:05:10.520 --> 0:05:13.479 strap them to it at any time. Yeah, so that's 0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:16.280 where the polygraph came from. Yeah, there's a little prehistory 0:05:16.320 --> 0:05:18.680 to just to give them their due. Uh. In e 0:05:19.839 --> 0:05:25.279 Cesaire lambroso he's an Italian criminologist. He measured changes in 0:05:25.279 --> 0:05:28.720 blood pressure for police cases in in nineteen o four 0:05:28.760 --> 0:05:34.440 a device by Vittorio Bernosi measured breathing and so they 0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:37.120 were early nineteen hundreds, late eighteen hundreds. They were kind 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:40.760 of on the scene of of measuring these things in. 0:05:41.120 --> 0:05:45.039 Dr James Mackenzie in nineteen o six first mentioned the 0:05:45.040 --> 0:05:48.680 word polygraph with his instrument that he didn't use to 0:05:48.760 --> 0:05:52.920 root out the truth, but for uh he did use 0:05:52.960 --> 0:05:56.680 it when giving medical examination. ZO and then right before 0:05:56.680 --> 0:06:00.520 the polygraph was the unigraph unigraph, which was part of 0:06:00.880 --> 0:06:05.600 what's still used today in the polygraph UM. It measured respiration. 0:06:07.000 --> 0:06:09.400 Pretty cool, yeah, Um, but then you add to it 0:06:09.440 --> 0:06:12.080 a couple of other things and you got the polygraph. 0:06:12.279 --> 0:06:14.560 We could stop here. This is interesting enough right now. 0:06:14.720 --> 0:06:19.560 So there's no uh you really, there's no um, no 0:06:19.640 --> 0:06:22.800 one walking the planet who has anything to do with 0:06:23.320 --> 0:06:27.839 polygraphs that call them lie detectors, And anyone, even the 0:06:27.880 --> 0:06:34.560 most ardent defender of polygraph technology would correct you if 0:06:34.600 --> 0:06:36.560 you called it a lie detector. They would be like, 0:06:36.600 --> 0:06:39.000 it's it's not a lie detector because you can't detect 0:06:39.000 --> 0:06:42.240 a lot. It's possible. The whole basis of a polygraph 0:06:42.440 --> 0:06:46.440 is that it is a set of um medical instruments 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:49.880 that use to measure changes in things like your heart rate, 0:06:50.600 --> 0:06:56.320 your respiration um and sweatiness. Basically, I would fail. Um, well, 0:06:56.360 --> 0:06:58.520 a lot of people do fail, and we'll get to that. 0:06:59.120 --> 0:07:03.640 But um oh because of your sweat Yeah, that's okay. 0:07:04.120 --> 0:07:09.960 They would they would even hook me up. Um. So, 0:07:10.320 --> 0:07:12.840 when you're hooked up to this machine. The whole point 0:07:12.920 --> 0:07:15.960 is that it measures these physiological changes in the idea 0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:19.080 that there you're going to undergo physiological changes based on 0:07:19.160 --> 0:07:22.960 the concept that a person hooked this machine who is 0:07:23.000 --> 0:07:27.200 guilty will experience fear that they're going to be detected. 0:07:28.000 --> 0:07:32.520 So this machine is designed to detect that fear, that's right, 0:07:32.520 --> 0:07:37.280 which is really round about. But for a century almost 0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:41.240 these things were used um and abused, and it took 0:07:41.240 --> 0:07:43.680 a while for people to kind of catch on that. 0:07:44.120 --> 0:07:47.560 There's a lot to criticize here with polygraphs, yeah, for sure, 0:07:47.960 --> 0:07:50.800 but they're still used, all right, So let's get into 0:07:50.880 --> 0:07:53.320 this um. First of all, we need to point out 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:57.120 that analog polygraphs are what you have long seen in 0:07:57.240 --> 0:08:00.160 movies and TV when they have the little jit he 0:08:00.360 --> 0:08:02.520 uh looks like a seismic graph on the on the 0:08:02.560 --> 0:08:06.480 paper scrolling by, and uh, you're hooked up to all 0:08:06.480 --> 0:08:08.800 these different things on your chest, in your forehead and 0:08:08.800 --> 0:08:13.680 your fingertips. These days they do that digitally, but it's 0:08:13.720 --> 0:08:17.640 basically still the same technique. They just don't use the 0:08:17.680 --> 0:08:20.760 little scrolling needle. Do They have a name for that. 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:26.280 It's called an inkfield pen. It is, okay. But the 0:08:26.320 --> 0:08:29.520 three things that they do, Josh, They measure your respiratory rate, 0:08:29.560 --> 0:08:32.800 as you said, They take newmographs, which are rubber tubes 0:08:32.840 --> 0:08:35.960 filled with air time around your chest and your abdomen, 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:39.840 and that is going to measure whether or not you're 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:42.520 you know, you start breathing heavy essentially when you get nervous. 0:08:42.600 --> 0:08:45.320 It monitors your breathing pattern and any changes to it, 0:08:45.360 --> 0:08:48.000 and it does it pretty cleverly. Right. Yeah. With bellows, 0:08:48.040 --> 0:08:50.920 it it's they're filled with air. So when you when 0:08:50.920 --> 0:08:53.360 you breathe in real deeply or have a change, it's 0:08:53.400 --> 0:08:57.400 going to displace that into the bellows and that will 0:08:57.760 --> 0:09:00.439 Originally that was attached the bellows were literally attached to 0:09:00.440 --> 0:09:03.679 the mechanical arm that showed the change. These days is 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:08.360 a it's a transducer that converts it digitally electronically, right, 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:13.480 it converts it to an electrical pattern, right, Yeah, the 0:09:13.520 --> 0:09:16.360 same thing. Yeah, Um no, I think it looks a 0:09:16.360 --> 0:09:18.680 lot like it. If you look, there's a picture of 0:09:18.679 --> 0:09:21.800 a modern one in the ground. It looks just like 0:09:21.920 --> 0:09:23.640 But yeah, it's not a it's not a paper read 0:09:23.679 --> 0:09:27.040 out any longer, which is kind of interesting, Like this 0:09:27.160 --> 0:09:31.680 technology hasn't hasn't changed on a very fundamental basis for 0:09:31.720 --> 0:09:34.040 like a hundred years almost. Yeah, I mean the early 0:09:34.080 --> 0:09:36.280 one from Mackenzie in nineteen o six. They say that 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:40.520 a lot of the same components are still very similar today. Right. Um, 0:09:40.920 --> 0:09:43.040 you also are going to have so you're gonna have 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:45.400 two tubes, one around your chest, one around your abdomen. 0:09:46.000 --> 0:09:49.400 It's um keeping an eye on your breathing. Um. You're 0:09:49.440 --> 0:09:53.600 going to have a blood pressure cuff which UM, which 0:09:53.720 --> 0:09:56.840 keeps an eye on your heart rate and your blood pressure. 0:09:57.320 --> 0:10:00.520 And it does it through sound, right, Yeah, realize this. 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:03.000 So when you're when the blood comes in and out 0:10:03.000 --> 0:10:06.480 of your veins, it creates sound. And sound can also 0:10:06.520 --> 0:10:10.959 be used to displace air, causing of bellows to contract, 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:15.160 which again moved the arm on the scroll and now 0:10:15.600 --> 0:10:19.480 is created or turned into an electrical pattern. Um. But 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:22.120 it's the same thing, but it's sound, which I just 0:10:22.240 --> 0:10:24.840 think is very neat. Well, and what's also neat is 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:27.480 the sweat one. I figured they would have some sort 0:10:27.520 --> 0:10:32.440 of like a moisturerometer just to detect moisture. But it's 0:10:32.440 --> 0:10:38.240 called galvanic skin resistance or GSR or electrodermal activity, that's right. 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:41.760 And they hook up these fingerplates to galvanometers and they 0:10:41.800 --> 0:10:45.760 are basically measuring the skin's ability to conduct electricity. And 0:10:45.800 --> 0:10:48.320 if your skin is moist it's going to be able 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:51.880 to conduct electricity easier. And that's what they're measuring there. 0:10:51.960 --> 0:10:55.520 It's like the ones the little um heart rate monitors 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:59.080 that they clip to your fingertips in the hospital. But 0:10:59.200 --> 0:11:04.240 these things as your electricity instead, uh, which if you 0:11:04.360 --> 0:11:09.000 are dry, you're going to conduct less of electricity. If 0:11:09.040 --> 0:11:12.000 you're wet, you're gonna conduct more so since you have 0:11:12.040 --> 0:11:14.200 so many pores on the end of your fingers and 0:11:14.280 --> 0:11:18.560 you sweat when you're nervous. There you go. Done. So 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:21.720 you put all this together and um, it paints this picture. 0:11:22.000 --> 0:11:25.040 It's the A c l U among other people have 0:11:25.160 --> 0:11:29.360 decried as just what are you doing here? Basically is 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:33.600 what the A c l U says, right, Um, what 0:11:33.600 --> 0:11:37.640 what you have is a picture of a person who 0:11:37.880 --> 0:11:43.920 is undergoing stress, maybe feeling embarrassment, is maybe just scared 0:11:43.960 --> 0:11:47.320 to be there. Uh, maybe doesn't like having things wrapped 0:11:47.320 --> 0:11:51.120 around his or her chest. Um, maybe doesn't really like 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:56.839 the person asking the questions. The results of these these 0:11:56.960 --> 0:12:02.000 um changes in pattern, the data is totally subjective, that's right, 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:06.880 which makes polygraphs totally subjective, which takes it in large 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:10.280 part out of the realm of science. Yeah, voodoo science 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:13.679 is what they call it. And uh. Although proponents will 0:12:13.679 --> 0:12:18.160 say that a well trained forensic psychophysiologists, which is the 0:12:18.200 --> 0:12:22.000 examiner can get through all that to still get a 0:12:22.040 --> 0:12:24.440 good result. They're like, yeah, they know all this stuff, 0:12:24.880 --> 0:12:27.320 and if you're good, then you can factor that in 0:12:27.480 --> 0:12:30.160 and still get a good result. So let's talk about 0:12:30.200 --> 0:12:35.440 what the forensic psychophysiologist does. There's apparently I've seen anywhere 0:12:35.480 --> 0:12:37.600 between five thousand and ten thousand of them in the 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:42.880 US at any given time, UM, And some of them 0:12:43.080 --> 0:12:48.480 belong to professional organizations. I think probably maybe half or third, 0:12:49.000 --> 0:12:51.640 depending on where you are in the on that estimate. 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:57.400 UM belong to any number of professional organizations. Some have 0:12:57.440 --> 0:13:01.319 no accreditation whatsoever, UM, but are still able to open 0:13:01.400 --> 0:13:04.160 up shops depending on the state there in. Some states 0:13:04.200 --> 0:13:08.719 have zero laws about being a forensic psychophysiologist a k 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:13.120 A polygraph examiner. That's right, but there is also some 0:13:13.280 --> 0:13:16.920 there are programs out there. Uh. The who wrote this article, 0:13:17.000 --> 0:13:21.160 Kevin bondser I think so. He he um interviewed a 0:13:21.200 --> 0:13:27.440 guy who founded the Accodon Academy. Exciton is a manufacturer polygraphs, 0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:31.440 and they founded this academy as well, where um, you 0:13:31.559 --> 0:13:34.160 go through a certain amount of training to become a 0:13:34.160 --> 0:13:38.880 forensic psychophysiologist. And he actually interviewed that guy. Yeah, his 0:13:38.960 --> 0:13:42.319 name's Bobb Lee Lee uh and Lee says that if 0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:45.400 you come to their academy, UM you have to have 0:13:45.640 --> 0:13:49.560 a baccalaurea degree bachelor's right, or you have to have 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:54.000 at least five years investigative experience and an associate's degree. UM. 0:13:54.080 --> 0:13:58.400 You have to take a ten week course, and after 0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:00.920 you complete the ten week course, you have to carry 0:14:00.920 --> 0:14:07.160 out twenty five polygraph examinations and submit them to be reviewed. Uh. 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:09.120 So these are like real life ones. I guess you're 0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:12.080 working with your local police department or whatever. Maybe you're 0:14:12.120 --> 0:14:15.679 already a cop UM and you have to submit it 0:14:15.800 --> 0:14:20.040 to the Accident Academy board for a review. And then 0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:23.120 once they're all reviewed and everybody's all thumbs up, you 0:14:23.280 --> 0:14:27.160 are a licensed I guess. But you're not licensed because 0:14:27.160 --> 0:14:31.840 there's no licensing body. UM. You are you graduate, I 0:14:31.840 --> 0:14:36.640 guess is is what they call it. So that's as 0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:40.600 accredited as it gets. I guess. And like you said, UM. 0:14:41.720 --> 0:14:45.800 Proponents of polygraph testing say that there, if you're a 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:49.560 good FP, you're gonna be able to structure everything correctly 0:14:49.880 --> 0:14:51.960 so that you can see past somebody who's just who 0:14:51.960 --> 0:14:54.840 sweats a lot like you, or who gets stressed out 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:59.480 easily like me, Um, and design your questions appropriately, and 0:14:59.520 --> 0:15:03.280 you're gonna able to to figure out whether this person 0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:08.640 is deceptive or not. So how how would you do that? Chuck? Well, 0:15:09.040 --> 0:15:11.680 we should talk about the test itself. I guess. Uh, 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:13.400 you're gonna you're gonna go in and you're gonna get 0:15:13.400 --> 0:15:16.960 a pretest before you get strapped up to anything. Could 0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:19.520 take about an hour. This is just you and those 0:15:19.600 --> 0:15:21.920 the only two people in the room. You're not surrounded 0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:25.120 by folks like in the movies and stuff, although in 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:27.560 the movie sometimes it's just two people, I guess. But 0:15:27.840 --> 0:15:30.480 the pretest that you're just gonna get an interview basically 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:35.480 about basically about why you're being investigated. Uh, they're also 0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:38.400 gonna be profiling you and checking you out and just 0:15:38.440 --> 0:15:41.320 seeing what kind of questions you respond to and what 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:44.080 might make you nervous, just so they'll be better informed 0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:47.840 about how to properly question you once you're all strapped in, right, 0:15:47.880 --> 0:15:50.480 and the pretest where you're just kind of hanging out 0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:53.800 with them casually. The examiners also kind of getting info 0:15:53.880 --> 0:15:55.560 out of you that you might not be aware of, 0:15:55.600 --> 0:16:01.120 like um, if you are if you talk leisurely about 0:16:01.320 --> 0:16:03.400 your favorite beer at one point and how you like 0:16:03.480 --> 0:16:06.120 it a lot, and then later on it also comes 0:16:06.200 --> 0:16:09.200 up that you have to drive a lot um. They 0:16:09.280 --> 0:16:11.000 might come up with it. They might use that for 0:16:11.040 --> 0:16:14.400 a control question UM, which could be something like have 0:16:14.480 --> 0:16:17.560 you ever driven under the influence of alcohol? And a 0:16:17.640 --> 0:16:20.240 control question is something where you would have to admit 0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:23.840 guilt um and you may not want to, but it's 0:16:23.920 --> 0:16:27.080 such a broad question that just about anybody is guilty 0:16:27.120 --> 0:16:29.400 of it, Like have you ever lied to somebody? Have 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:33.000 you ever um stolen anything? That kind of thing to 0:16:33.080 --> 0:16:36.400 where if you say no, they now have a baseline 0:16:36.920 --> 0:16:40.640 for what it looks like when you lie. That they 0:16:40.640 --> 0:16:43.240 can make a reasonable assumption that you have just lied. 0:16:43.640 --> 0:16:48.120 And any of the data UM captured on the polygraph 0:16:48.320 --> 0:16:50.920 they're going to use to analyze everything else off of. 0:16:52.000 --> 0:16:55.480 That's pretty much it. That's the test, and afterward you 0:16:55.560 --> 0:16:57.080 have the post tests where they look at all the 0:16:57.160 --> 0:17:01.920 data and chart out whether or not they think you're 0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:05.879 deceptive and aware. Like on this question, you're deceptive. On 0:17:05.960 --> 0:17:08.040 this question you may have been deceptive. It's kind of 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:10.520 hard to tell. On this one you definitely were deceptive, 0:17:10.600 --> 0:17:13.120 so so, and it's all in it's all in relation 0:17:13.200 --> 0:17:16.920 to that control question, that baseline. Right, So if you 0:17:17.760 --> 0:17:21.399 if your deception, if you if on questions where I mean, 0:17:21.400 --> 0:17:23.359 they're gonna have to talk to the police as well 0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:25.480 too and say what do you want to know out 0:17:25.520 --> 0:17:29.360 of this person? So they'll design questions around that as well. UM. 0:17:29.400 --> 0:17:31.320 So they may have a question like, um, are you 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:34.680 wearing a blue shirt? That may be question one, it's irrelevant, right. 0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:39.399 Question two is, um, have you ever lied to your boss? 0:17:39.600 --> 0:17:42.119 That's the control question, and then question three is something 0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:44.920 like you know, did you steal the cookie from the 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:47.080 cookie jar? Like, that's the one that the cops want 0:17:47.200 --> 0:17:51.119 them to ask. They'll compare the results of Q three 0:17:51.400 --> 0:17:57.239 against Q two and if they're the same or you 0:17:57.280 --> 0:18:00.119 can't really tell, that's in uh in that that's an 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:04.400 uh inconclusive tests. So that's it. I mean, like you said, 0:18:04.440 --> 0:18:08.760 that's that's polygraph. It's pretty easy. It is. It's uh 0:18:08.800 --> 0:18:12.840 it's um jarringly easy, considering that it's used in legal 0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:17.359 cases a lot, right, Yes, that's true. Um. People try 0:18:17.400 --> 0:18:20.879 to to battle the LDE detector in various ways or 0:18:20.880 --> 0:18:24.480 a little tricks that the Internet says works, like taking 0:18:24.480 --> 0:18:28.080 a sedative or putting any perspirint on your fingers, which 0:18:28.160 --> 0:18:31.360 seems like they would make you wash your hands. Uh, 0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:34.920 putting attack in your shoe, and anytime you get asked 0:18:34.920 --> 0:18:37.120 a question, every single time you stomp on the tack. 0:18:37.560 --> 0:18:39.639 And the idea is that you're just gonna skew the 0:18:39.640 --> 0:18:42.520 test so they all look the same, so your body 0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:45.199 has the same reaction no matter what's going on, like 0:18:45.280 --> 0:18:47.880 they I guess if you press on the tack, your 0:18:47.920 --> 0:18:53.920 physiological response could overwhelm any response to the question. Right. Um, 0:18:54.160 --> 0:18:57.320 Like I said there, these these things are used in 0:18:57.760 --> 0:19:03.080 legal cases, but with caveats. Right, If you undergo a polygraph, 0:19:03.080 --> 0:19:10.480 whether you fail or pass, it doesn't really matter legally speaking, um, 0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:14.040 because of unless you're in New Mexico. Yeah, this is 0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:16.440 the only state that allows it just openly. Like if 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:19.760 you take a polygraph, like, it's admissible in court every 0:19:19.800 --> 0:19:23.120 other state. Um. Usually the both sides have to agree 0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:27.440 on it being admitted or um. The judge has to say, yeah, 0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:30.639 we're gonna admit this one, right. Yeah, And federally the 0:19:30.720 --> 0:19:34.800 judge decides whether or not they're going to admit it, right, 0:19:34.840 --> 0:19:37.360 And I guess state judges kind of follow that federal 0:19:37.480 --> 0:19:41.800 ruling of polygraphing. Yeah, and it's sort of a crapshoot 0:19:41.840 --> 0:19:44.040 if a federal judge is gonna allow it or not. 0:19:44.119 --> 0:19:47.199 There's no precedent really to where they say we have 0:19:47.280 --> 0:19:50.399 to or we don't have to. Right, So, where are 0:19:50.440 --> 0:19:57.440 the problems with this um? The problems with a polygraph 0:19:57.640 --> 0:20:01.159 um or that it's subjective, Right, that's a one. But 0:20:01.280 --> 0:20:04.600 also because there because it's subjective, you can get what 0:20:04.640 --> 0:20:09.080 are called false positives and false negatives. Yeah, and you 0:20:09.080 --> 0:20:11.600 don't want that because then the test itself is just 0:20:11.880 --> 0:20:15.280 not valid. Uh, But I mean that a lot of 0:20:15.280 --> 0:20:20.000 people use that as evidence that polygraph polygraphy shouldn't be 0:20:20.040 --> 0:20:23.480 done at all, that it's not valid. False positive and 0:20:24.680 --> 0:20:29.800 polygraph thing is when you find somebody who is deemed 0:20:29.960 --> 0:20:33.040 deceptive but was telling the truth. False negative is when 0:20:33.320 --> 0:20:38.119 somebody who wasn't telling the truth um is deemed truthful. 0:20:38.359 --> 0:20:41.320 Like Gary Ridgeway, the Green River killer. They had him 0:20:41.359 --> 0:20:43.040 for a little while and gave him a polygraph and 0:20:43.040 --> 0:20:44.680 he passed and they let him go and he went 0:20:44.720 --> 0:20:47.800 and killed a bunch more women. All right, that's right. 0:20:48.240 --> 0:20:52.680 I didn't know that actually, Yeah, Well good for him. 0:20:53.000 --> 0:20:55.680 There's also the uh, you know, the federal government is 0:20:55.720 --> 0:20:59.520 the largest consumer of these exams, and if you work 0:20:59.560 --> 0:21:01.760 for the federal govern right, you've probably had one to 0:21:01.880 --> 0:21:04.320 get the job. But you can't do that in the 0:21:04.359 --> 0:21:08.440 private sector thanks to the Polygraph Protection Act Employee Polygraph 0:21:08.480 --> 0:21:12.000 Protection Act in the late eighties, they said, you can't 0:21:12.320 --> 0:21:15.320 force your employees to do this. You can request it, 0:21:15.920 --> 0:21:17.480 but if they don't want to do it, you can't 0:21:17.520 --> 0:21:20.480 fire them because of it. You just can't do it right, 0:21:20.960 --> 0:21:24.320 not in private land, right unless you have a contract 0:21:24.359 --> 0:21:27.720 with the government, and then that's not valid. But yeah, 0:21:27.760 --> 0:21:31.280 the the federal government is the largest opponent to them 0:21:31.320 --> 0:21:35.800 in court, but also the largest consumer. I imagine that 0:21:36.160 --> 0:21:38.960 UM and there's been a lot of cases that shaped 0:21:39.000 --> 0:21:42.240 its admissibility or not. But the polygraph it seems like 0:21:42.320 --> 0:21:44.399 it's kind of honest way out. I wrote an article 0:21:44.840 --> 0:21:48.000 about um M R I being used as lie detectors, 0:21:48.600 --> 0:21:50.600 and that's starting to kind of come into fashion. The 0:21:50.600 --> 0:21:53.120 more we start to understand, like how lies are born 0:21:53.200 --> 0:21:56.119 in the brain, being able to see it and saying 0:21:56.280 --> 0:22:00.080 this is the pattern that will happen, um it if 0:22:00.119 --> 0:22:02.600 this person is lying, and then that pattern happens. They say, 0:22:02.640 --> 0:22:04.520 what we know, you're lying. We just saw that live 0:22:04.640 --> 0:22:07.239 form in your brain. That makes sense. Yes, But at 0:22:07.280 --> 0:22:11.600 the same time, people who understand Mr. Eyes say, it 0:22:11.800 --> 0:22:14.359 is way too early to be doing that. And even 0:22:14.359 --> 0:22:17.800 if we can do it with accuracy, there are a 0:22:17.840 --> 0:22:20.400 lot of moral and ethical questions to it as well 0:22:20.440 --> 0:22:24.600 that we need to address. First always UH and then 0:22:24.680 --> 0:22:30.040 penile plus demography. What's that? So? Remember the the UM 0:22:30.240 --> 0:22:34.360 newmegraphs that go around the chest in the abdomen. Imagine 0:22:34.359 --> 0:22:36.840 one of those that goes around the penis and it 0:22:36.880 --> 0:22:41.160 does the same thing if the text changes in traction 0:22:41.280 --> 0:22:45.040 and girth. It's a perfect way to put it UM, 0:22:45.080 --> 0:22:47.640 and it's used to detect arousal. They use it for 0:22:47.840 --> 0:22:51.680 UM sex offenders. It's under at least as much attack 0:22:51.920 --> 0:22:56.800 as regular UM polygraphs. But I wrote this blog post 0:22:56.920 --> 0:23:00.000 called UM using science to root out late in homoset 0:23:00.080 --> 0:23:04.000 quality among homophobes. A study at U g A used 0:23:04.520 --> 0:23:10.719 UH penile plesim plethismography UM to find if anyone who 0:23:11.320 --> 0:23:18.360 they had deemed homophobic became aroused when exposed to homosexual pornography. Yeah, 0:23:18.480 --> 0:23:21.359 it's it's one of the better posts I've ever written cheese. 0:23:22.720 --> 0:23:27.560 All right, that's our future. I guess penole plethismography for everyone, um, 0:23:28.960 --> 0:23:31.879 everyone with a penis at least and then chuck. Lastly, 0:23:31.920 --> 0:23:34.560 I want to encourage everybody, if this has piqued your 0:23:34.600 --> 0:23:38.920 interest about lie detectors, to go watch the Shoe Court 0:23:39.000 --> 0:23:43.000 shoe store job interview clip from Mr Show on YouTube. 0:23:43.520 --> 0:23:46.480 You remember that one. That's very good bather friend Paula 0:23:46.560 --> 0:23:51.080 Thompkins and he has a breakthrough. See that one. Yeah, 0:23:52.200 --> 0:23:56.280 good old p f T. And that's it for lie detectors, right, Yeah, 0:23:56.320 --> 0:23:57.840 I want to take a test. If there's someone in 0:23:57.880 --> 0:24:00.440 the Atlanta area that administers these and would be willing 0:24:00.520 --> 0:24:04.120 to give me a lie detector test, I would love 0:24:04.320 --> 0:24:09.239 to do that, Okay, and I'll watch yes, um as 0:24:09.280 --> 0:24:12.480