WEBVTT - Draft Season: Episode 11- Defensive Changes/Player Evaluations 0:00:03.462 --> 0:00:06.062 Tape Eds. It's a production of I Heart Media and 0:00:06.102 --> 0:00:13.222 the NFL. Welcome to a brand new week and a 0:00:13.262 --> 0:00:16.582 brand new edition of tape Eds Draft Season. It is April, 0:00:17.062 --> 0:00:20.582 Greg co Sell, we have officially reached Draft month. We 0:00:20.622 --> 0:00:23.582 can so we can see it on the horizon as uh. 0:00:23.702 --> 0:00:26.302 This is a different kind of podcast. Greg co Sell 0:00:26.782 --> 0:00:30.622 long time breaker down of the film at NFL Films, 0:00:30.622 --> 0:00:32.582 and he looks at the All twenty two and crawls 0:00:32.622 --> 0:00:35.422 behind the xs and ohs as much as anyone, not 0:00:35.542 --> 0:00:39.702 just game coverage, but also individual player coverage, getting us 0:00:39.702 --> 0:00:41.982 set for the draft, looking at the pros, but also 0:00:41.982 --> 0:00:44.342 looking at the college players and of course that is 0:00:44.382 --> 0:00:46.822 where our focus is at this time of the year. 0:00:47.022 --> 0:00:49.302 On Bible Shoes and a longtime radio voice of the 0:00:49.302 --> 0:00:52.222 New York Jets twenty plus years of NFL play by 0:00:52.222 --> 0:00:55.862 play experience and also a voice of college football at ESPN. 0:00:55.902 --> 0:00:57.182 So I've had a chance to see a lot of 0:00:57.222 --> 0:01:00.822 these guys on tape with my partners in games I've called. 0:01:01.262 --> 0:01:03.822 And again, this is not the mock draft po cast. 0:01:03.902 --> 0:01:06.142 This is more of a crawl behind the xs and 0:01:06.142 --> 0:01:08.942 os and hopefully take you inside the draft room. Podcast 0:01:09.502 --> 0:01:12.582 and Greig this is a week that we're gonna talk 0:01:12.622 --> 0:01:17.182 about the passing game, but the passing game in relation 0:01:17.302 --> 0:01:21.862 to then how teams draft defense and how there's been 0:01:21.902 --> 0:01:24.422 an evolution. Right, we see a lot of the college 0:01:24.502 --> 0:01:27.622 DNA now in the pros, a lot of the zone 0:01:27.662 --> 0:01:29.902 read stuff, a lot of the R P O stuff, 0:01:29.942 --> 0:01:32.382 the things that you know, I think the pro game 0:01:32.502 --> 0:01:36.142 kind of you know, scoffed at for decades and decades 0:01:36.182 --> 0:01:38.622 where you would see it in college football, but it 0:01:38.622 --> 0:01:41.142 didn't make its way to the NFL. Well. Now, the 0:01:41.262 --> 0:01:45.942 quarterbacks in college, the best ones are so proficient at 0:01:46.062 --> 0:01:48.702 running a lot of that stuff that they bring that 0:01:48.742 --> 0:01:51.622 with them to the pros now, because if you're a 0:01:51.622 --> 0:01:53.582 pro coordinator or a kid coach, why would you not 0:01:53.662 --> 0:01:56.502 want the guy to run for you what he was 0:01:56.582 --> 0:01:59.942 best at in college? And that I would assume also 0:02:00.022 --> 0:02:02.542 has to change the way the teams look at defensive 0:02:02.622 --> 0:02:05.502 players and prospects as well. We're gonna talk about some 0:02:05.502 --> 0:02:08.262 of the pass rushers and corners coming up a little 0:02:08.302 --> 0:02:10.222 bit later on, but at least just start wide angle 0:02:10.302 --> 0:02:15.102 lens philosophically, how that change to a certain extent in 0:02:15.142 --> 0:02:17.382 the pros from college and that d NA making its 0:02:17.382 --> 0:02:20.782 way to the NFL has changed offenses and the passing offenses, 0:02:21.022 --> 0:02:23.382 but also now how it changes the way seems look 0:02:23.382 --> 0:02:26.142 at defensive prospects. Yeah, Bob, you hit it right on 0:02:26.142 --> 0:02:29.102 the head. Really in the NFL now, the way people 0:02:29.182 --> 0:02:33.542 think about defense is you have to stop explosive plays, 0:02:33.542 --> 0:02:36.862 and percentage wise, far more explosive plays come out of 0:02:36.862 --> 0:02:39.862 the past game. So how do you go about stopping 0:02:39.902 --> 0:02:42.782 the past game. There's two ways, and there's a lot 0:02:42.822 --> 0:02:46.022 to unpack here, but you have to one impact the 0:02:46.142 --> 0:02:51.942 quarterback or two disrupt receivers. Now more old school, before 0:02:51.982 --> 0:02:55.222 the influx of r p O s and quick game throws, 0:02:55.462 --> 0:02:58.702 which are now very prevalent in the NFL, that thought 0:02:58.942 --> 0:03:02.102 was that you had to disrupt the quarterback. You had 0:03:02.102 --> 0:03:04.782 to impact the quarterback. You had to speed him up. 0:03:05.262 --> 0:03:07.302 You're not always going to sack him, but you had 0:03:07.342 --> 0:03:10.302 to speed up the quarterback and make it more difficult 0:03:10.342 --> 0:03:12.902 for him to play with that comfort level that all 0:03:13.022 --> 0:03:16.302 quarterbacks would like to play with. So the thought was 0:03:16.622 --> 0:03:20.502 pass rushers. Let's get pass rushers predominantly off the edge. 0:03:20.822 --> 0:03:24.342 Let's speed up the quarterback. Coverage could be both man 0:03:24.382 --> 0:03:27.102 and zone because that would become a function of your 0:03:27.102 --> 0:03:30.542 ability to speed up the quarterback. But now, and you 0:03:30.662 --> 0:03:34.142 nail this, Now you have so many more r p 0:03:34.302 --> 0:03:37.902 O elements in the NFL, so much more quick game 0:03:38.542 --> 0:03:41.222 so you're not going to get to the quarterback and 0:03:41.302 --> 0:03:44.302 speed him up the way you really like to. So 0:03:44.382 --> 0:03:47.262 who do you have to disrupt? You have to disrupt 0:03:47.262 --> 0:03:51.262 receivers so that the timing of those quick game throws 0:03:51.942 --> 0:03:55.542 is disrupted. So what does that mean. It means more 0:03:55.702 --> 0:03:59.622 man to man coverage, more pressed man coverage. You can't 0:03:59.662 --> 0:04:03.422 play off coverage zone because then those receivers on those 0:04:03.542 --> 0:04:07.502 quick routes like slant routes or glance routes or hitch routes, 0:04:07.862 --> 0:04:11.102 those routes are just free release routes if you're not 0:04:11.222 --> 0:04:14.382 in press man coverage. And you get all those quick 0:04:14.422 --> 0:04:16.742 game throws, of which an r p O is a 0:04:16.822 --> 0:04:19.862 quick game throw, and it's just it just becomes pitch 0:04:19.902 --> 0:04:24.542 and catch. So you have to now look at corners 0:04:24.582 --> 0:04:27.982 and their ability to line up and play press man 0:04:28.022 --> 0:04:31.422 coverage to a meaningful degree. Yeah, it's funny. It reminds 0:04:31.422 --> 0:04:34.902 me of a story that the particulars of this story 0:04:35.902 --> 0:04:39.462 make it, I think even more interesting I was calling 0:04:39.582 --> 0:04:43.022 a Purdue game with the late Joe Tiller as a coach, 0:04:43.022 --> 0:04:45.662 and this is how far back we're now going. And 0:04:45.702 --> 0:04:49.742 we just got into a philosophical football conversation. It was awesome. 0:04:49.782 --> 0:04:52.182 You know, we're just we're just talking ball and asking 0:04:52.262 --> 0:04:56.782 him philosophically, like how he recruited it Perdue right, Like 0:04:56.862 --> 0:04:59.142 why he knew he had to go out and get 0:04:59.222 --> 0:05:01.022 the Drew Breezes of the world and all the little 0:05:01.022 --> 0:05:03.262 receivers of the world because of Perdue. He was not 0:05:03.422 --> 0:05:07.822 going to out recruit Michigan, Ohio State, Penn State for 0:05:07.862 --> 0:05:10.622 the two and twenty five pound tailback, Like he wasn't 0:05:10.662 --> 0:05:12.902 going to get that guy. So he knew I have 0:05:12.942 --> 0:05:15.462 to win a different way. And he actually said, and 0:05:15.502 --> 0:05:17.382 this is I mean, this is I don't know, ten 0:05:17.462 --> 0:05:19.302 or twelve years ago, I was doing this game, maybe 0:05:19.302 --> 0:05:21.942 fifteen years ago. But he said, going back to the 0:05:22.022 --> 0:05:25.382 late seventies, the coaches all used to go to these clinics, 0:05:25.742 --> 0:05:27.902 and they all used to do clinics around the country 0:05:27.942 --> 0:05:31.342 for you know, gather coaches and teach. But then after 0:05:31.542 --> 0:05:33.182 that was over, he said the best part of it 0:05:33.222 --> 0:05:36.102 was all of the coaches giving the clinics would then 0:05:36.142 --> 0:05:38.982 go to the bar and sit around and get pictures 0:05:38.982 --> 0:05:41.422 of beer and just talk ball. Correct And he said 0:05:41.502 --> 0:05:44.022 he was sitting in a group of guys one time, 0:05:44.102 --> 0:05:47.342 this's like late seventies, and the conversation came up of 0:05:47.382 --> 0:05:50.782 what would make the perfect offense, If you could make 0:05:50.822 --> 0:05:54.342 the perfect offense, what would it be. And one of 0:05:54.382 --> 0:05:57.262 the guys at the table said, if I could design 0:05:57.302 --> 0:06:00.982 the perfect offense, it would be if I could somehow 0:06:01.062 --> 0:06:05.582 marry the option, would a quick passing game. So I 0:06:05.582 --> 0:06:07.982 don't know how you'd stopped that. How would a defense 0:06:08.022 --> 0:06:10.902 stop the option game and combine that with the quick 0:06:10.902 --> 0:06:13.182 passing game? And at the time it was almost like 0:06:13.182 --> 0:06:16.302 breakthrough cutting edge. But everyone is sitting at the table now, 0:06:16.342 --> 0:06:18.582 I mean now fast forward twenty years thirty years later, 0:06:18.622 --> 0:06:21.262 what our teams doing r pos right? Like, they're marrying 0:06:21.302 --> 0:06:24.822 a lot of those option principles with the quick passing game. 0:06:25.182 --> 0:06:27.582 It's really hard to stop. And the guy that said 0:06:27.622 --> 0:06:31.262 that was Jack Elway, who, of course I mean his son. 0:06:31.342 --> 0:06:34.422 If you could go into a lab and build like 0:06:34.462 --> 0:06:37.622 a robot quarterback for the modern day NFL, back then, 0:06:38.222 --> 0:06:39.822 the last thing you do was probably about a whole 0:06:39.822 --> 0:06:43.702 bunch of RPOs with John Elway. But his dad, of course, 0:06:43.822 --> 0:06:46.742 is saying, if I could find a way to marry 0:06:46.782 --> 0:06:49.862 the option with the quick passing game, I think that 0:06:49.902 --> 0:06:52.262 would be impossible to stop. And it just goes to 0:06:52.302 --> 0:06:55.702 show how much foresight he had, because how many years 0:06:55.782 --> 0:06:57.862 later that that is a lot of what is baked 0:06:57.862 --> 0:07:01.022 into not only college football, but also even now some 0:07:01.062 --> 0:07:03.582 of today's NFL offenses. And it's funny you say that, 0:07:03.622 --> 0:07:07.462 because in college football that can really really work effectively 0:07:08.102 --> 0:07:10.062 for a number of reasons. One of course is the 0:07:10.102 --> 0:07:12.542 position of the hash marks. The wide side of the 0:07:12.542 --> 0:07:15.502 field is extremely wide and difficult to defend. But in 0:07:15.542 --> 0:07:18.742 the NFL, as you and I both know, you can 0:07:18.782 --> 0:07:21.982 do those kinds of things, and they certainly can be effective. 0:07:22.262 --> 0:07:24.902 But you are going to get to third down, and 0:07:24.942 --> 0:07:27.062 you are going to get to third down in six 0:07:27.102 --> 0:07:30.502 plus seven plus, you're going to get into those situations 0:07:30.822 --> 0:07:35.862 where your offense can't function off deception and misdirection the 0:07:35.942 --> 0:07:39.022 same way it can on first and ten or second 0:07:39.062 --> 0:07:41.502 and four. What we would view BOB is normal down 0:07:41.582 --> 0:07:44.942 and distant situations. So at that point in the NFL, 0:07:45.622 --> 0:07:47.822 as an offense, you have to be able to have 0:07:47.902 --> 0:07:51.062 a drop back passing game, and as a defense, you 0:07:51.142 --> 0:07:53.942 must be able to defend a drop back passing game. 0:07:54.222 --> 0:07:58.342 And that's why pass rush becomes so critical. And obviously 0:07:58.462 --> 0:08:01.862 almost every coach in the league would love to be 0:08:01.942 --> 0:08:05.862 able to rush for and speed up the quarterback, even 0:08:05.902 --> 0:08:09.182 sacked the quarterback, and then have seven in coverage. But 0:08:09.262 --> 0:08:12.062 I've talked to so many defensive coaches through the years, 0:08:12.422 --> 0:08:15.142 and I remember for years and years Rod Rust, who 0:08:15.182 --> 0:08:18.062 has since passed away, would sit with me on Mondays. 0:08:18.222 --> 0:08:20.382 He sat with me for four or five years straight 0:08:20.702 --> 0:08:23.942 when he retired from coaching, and all he kept saying was, 0:08:24.222 --> 0:08:26.422 if you can't get there with four, you got to 0:08:26.462 --> 0:08:28.982 get there with five. If you can't get there with five, 0:08:29.182 --> 0:08:32.222 you gotta rush a sixth. The point being that if 0:08:32.262 --> 0:08:37.262 you cannot impact the quarterback in the NFL, whatever down 0:08:37.302 --> 0:08:40.302 it is, you know, obviously third down is the one 0:08:40.382 --> 0:08:43.102 that is the money down, the possession down. If you 0:08:43.182 --> 0:08:47.302 cannot impact the quarterback, it is very difficult to play 0:08:47.422 --> 0:08:50.942 quality third down defense in the NFL. And look how 0:08:50.982 --> 0:08:53.222 important pass rush is. All we have to do is 0:08:53.262 --> 0:08:55.542 go back to the Super Bowl. We saw that in 0:08:55.542 --> 0:08:58.462 the second half of that game, and I can't I 0:08:58.502 --> 0:09:00.302 don't know off the top of my head how many 0:09:00.302 --> 0:09:04.262 of those sacks came on third down, but obviously Joe 0:09:04.302 --> 0:09:08.622 Burrow is sacked six times by the rams On in 0:09:08.662 --> 0:09:11.422 the second half of that game, and a lot of 0:09:11.462 --> 0:09:14.382 them came from multiple front looks. If you notice in 0:09:14.422 --> 0:09:17.262 the NFL, so many teams now are doing so many 0:09:17.302 --> 0:09:21.462 more things with their front looks out of their sub defenses, 0:09:21.662 --> 0:09:25.502 meaning five defensive backs, six defensive backs, some teams with 0:09:25.582 --> 0:09:29.422 seven defensive backs because they're trying to create opportunities to 0:09:29.462 --> 0:09:32.302 put pressure on the quarterback. Well, two questions about the 0:09:32.302 --> 0:09:34.302 two positions we're gonna talk about again kind of wide 0:09:34.342 --> 0:09:37.622 angle lens before we get the specific guys. How much 0:09:37.662 --> 0:09:41.302 do you think it now changes the way or the 0:09:41.382 --> 0:09:44.622 traits that an NFL team is looking for in a 0:09:44.662 --> 0:09:47.422 pass rusher, Like with the great pass rusher of the 0:09:47.462 --> 0:09:50.302 eighties and nineties, the Reggie Whites of the world, would 0:09:50.302 --> 0:09:53.782 they still the Bruce Smith's, would they still be what 0:09:53.862 --> 0:09:56.542 they were then in today's game with the quick passing 0:09:56.542 --> 0:09:59.462 game or the way that these offenses now run or now, 0:10:00.062 --> 0:10:01.662 I mean it has it changed more to like the 0:10:01.742 --> 0:10:04.942 Von Miller smaller bend the edge. Guy who stands up 0:10:05.062 --> 0:10:06.742 half the time a lot of times doesn't even have 0:10:06.982 --> 0:10:09.582 corrects hand on the ground. How much do you think 0:10:09.622 --> 0:10:12.822 it has now changed the way that the NFL views 0:10:12.902 --> 0:10:15.542 pass rushers and the skill set they're looking for from 0:10:15.542 --> 0:10:18.462 a college player. It's a great question, and to me, 0:10:18.942 --> 0:10:20.982 I think one of the things you really want to 0:10:21.022 --> 0:10:24.422 look for when you evaluate college pass rushers coming to 0:10:24.462 --> 0:10:26.862 the NFL is you want to see how they work 0:10:26.902 --> 0:10:29.622 with and let's say a three to five yard metric 0:10:29.782 --> 0:10:32.462 off the snap of the ball. Because there's a lot 0:10:32.462 --> 0:10:34.982 of guys that can make second reaction sacks and there's 0:10:35.022 --> 0:10:37.262 nothing wrong with that, But if that's the way you're 0:10:37.262 --> 0:10:40.062 going to judge pass rushers and evaluate them, I think 0:10:40.062 --> 0:10:42.622 you're making a mistake. You need to see how a 0:10:42.702 --> 0:10:45.742 guy works right off the snap in that three to 0:10:45.862 --> 0:10:48.342 five yard metric and you hit it right on the head. 0:10:49.262 --> 0:10:52.622 You have to be able to bend somewhere along the line, 0:10:52.902 --> 0:10:55.182 and you have to be able to then flatten and 0:10:55.302 --> 0:10:58.822 close to the quarterback. Look are their power pass rushers? 0:10:58.942 --> 0:11:02.182 Are there guys who use their hands exceptionally well, I 0:11:02.182 --> 0:11:04.102 mean you can think of the boats of brothers. They're 0:11:04.102 --> 0:11:06.902 really good using their hands, but then they play off 0:11:06.942 --> 0:11:10.342 that contact and then they have speed and burst. At 0:11:10.422 --> 0:11:13.302 some point, you're going to have to have speed and burst. 0:11:13.542 --> 0:11:15.542 At some point you're going to have to be able 0:11:15.542 --> 0:11:19.222 to bend and flatten, because you if you can't do that, 0:11:19.542 --> 0:11:23.102 it's very, very difficult to sack the quarterback. And obviously 0:11:23.342 --> 0:11:24.982 you're going to have to be able to win on 0:11:25.022 --> 0:11:28.622 the high side, meaning the outside edge of the offensive tackle, 0:11:29.062 --> 0:11:30.822 and you're going to have to be able to counter 0:11:31.102 --> 0:11:34.062 and win on the low side, the inside shoulder of 0:11:34.102 --> 0:11:37.582 the offensive tackle. But that bend flexibility element, to me, 0:11:37.662 --> 0:11:40.422 Bob is so so important. Yeah, I guess the great 0:11:40.422 --> 0:11:42.542 player would always be the great player, right, I mean 0:11:42.742 --> 0:11:44.702 you can get a Bruce Smith or a Reggie White 0:11:44.782 --> 0:11:48.262 or a Lawrence Taylor. Bruce Smith used to get he 0:11:48.302 --> 0:11:51.222 almost he almost got so low And I can't believe 0:11:51.262 --> 0:11:53.102 I just thought of this. It reminded me of Tom 0:11:53.142 --> 0:11:55.822 Sieber pitching, where that fact need we would have so 0:11:55.902 --> 0:11:58.422 much dirt on it, remember those clips because he would 0:11:58.422 --> 0:12:01.782 get so low delivering the ball. Bruce Smith would get 0:12:01.862 --> 0:12:05.662 so low. He had tremendous spend in flexibility. Only this 0:12:05.702 --> 0:12:08.342 podcast was somehow bring Bruce Smith and Tom Siever here 0:12:08.382 --> 0:12:11.102 you go together in the same comparison up before we 0:12:11.142 --> 0:12:14.542 take a break, same question regarding corners, right, like, if 0:12:14.582 --> 0:12:17.422 you go back to the corners of yesteryear, what Dion 0:12:17.662 --> 0:12:20.262 or Lester Hayes or I mean even maybe the more 0:12:20.302 --> 0:12:23.462 modern guys like Champ Bailey or or you know Rivus, 0:12:24.062 --> 0:12:26.102 like has the position of corner. Now we look at 0:12:26.102 --> 0:12:28.622 this draft and we'll talk about the Stingleys and the 0:12:28.622 --> 0:12:32.582 Sauce Gardeners of the world. But has that changed, Like 0:12:32.662 --> 0:12:35.542 the traits you're looking for. It used to be, all right, 0:12:35.622 --> 0:12:39.462 you're our best corner. You just go shut down the 0:12:39.462 --> 0:12:43.142 other team's six ft three, two ten pounds stud wide 0:12:43.142 --> 0:12:47.222 receiver and we'll figure out the rest from there. But 0:12:47.502 --> 0:12:50.462 offenses have changed, and I think, like, look at Tyreek Hill, 0:12:50.742 --> 0:12:52.662 right and he might be the most productive wide receiver 0:12:52.702 --> 0:12:54.982 in the NFL, and he is certainly not the body 0:12:55.022 --> 0:12:57.542 type that they were looking for in a wide receiver 0:12:57.702 --> 0:13:00.782 even ten years ago in the NFL. So how much 0:13:01.102 --> 0:13:04.302 has that evolution now changed with the offense is of today? 0:13:04.342 --> 0:13:06.542 Maybe the trades you're looking for in a corner, well, 0:13:06.582 --> 0:13:08.982 to me, I think you must be able to play 0:13:09.022 --> 0:13:11.302 man to man coverage if you're going to be a 0:13:11.382 --> 0:13:14.142 high quality corner, because I think the days of just 0:13:14.262 --> 0:13:17.862 lining up and playing zone concepts such as Tony Dungee's 0:13:17.902 --> 0:13:21.382 Cover two, which was obviously extremely successful and in many 0:13:21.382 --> 0:13:24.342 ways trend setting, I think the days of just playing 0:13:24.382 --> 0:13:27.342 like that are over in the NFL. So I think 0:13:27.382 --> 0:13:30.142 your corners need to be able to line up and 0:13:30.182 --> 0:13:33.582 play man. And there's essentially two forms of press man. 0:13:33.822 --> 0:13:36.662 There's what we call mirror match press man, where you 0:13:36.742 --> 0:13:40.062 don't necessarily jam the receiver, you wait for him to 0:13:40.142 --> 0:13:43.222 declare his release off the line of scrimmage, and then 0:13:43.262 --> 0:13:45.382 you just get in his hip pocket, whether it's the 0:13:45.382 --> 0:13:48.702 inside or the outside. Champ Bailey was a master at 0:13:48.702 --> 0:13:51.022 that um and I think you have to be able 0:13:51.062 --> 0:13:54.302 to play that in today's NFL. I think if you 0:13:54.382 --> 0:13:57.662 can't line up with corners and match up man to man, 0:13:57.942 --> 0:14:01.622 particularly with the infusion of three by one sets where 0:14:01.622 --> 0:14:04.342 there's a single receiver to the short side of the field, 0:14:04.582 --> 0:14:06.382 you've got to be able to match up to that 0:14:06.422 --> 0:14:09.822 boundary ex receiver man to man somewhere along the line, 0:14:10.102 --> 0:14:13.862 and I think it's critical that corners coming out today 0:14:14.222 --> 0:14:17.422 can do that. Well, in the top ten of this draft, 0:14:17.862 --> 0:14:20.062 there will be some pass rushers and there will be 0:14:20.062 --> 0:14:22.502 some corners drafted. Right, and there's no doubt about it. 0:14:22.502 --> 0:14:24.302 When we look at the top prospects of this draft, 0:14:24.342 --> 0:14:27.222 we're gonna see both positions taken. When we come back, 0:14:27.542 --> 0:14:29.942 we're gonna start to talk about some of those top 0:14:29.982 --> 0:14:34.022 prospects at both positions, at pass rusher, end at corner. 0:14:34.102 --> 0:14:41.302 Bobo schusan Great Cosll. This is Taped's draft season, Bobo 0:14:41.302 --> 0:14:43.462 shus and Great co Sell. We are back on Tapeds 0:14:43.502 --> 0:14:47.582 draft season, talking philosophically about how offenses and maybe the 0:14:47.622 --> 0:14:50.702 need for pass rushers and corners has changed in the NFL. 0:14:50.742 --> 0:14:52.942 But now let's get to some of the specific guys. 0:14:53.502 --> 0:14:56.662 And again, you know, Greg, we talked about those prototypical, 0:14:56.742 --> 0:14:59.862 big monster pass rushers like the Bruce Smith's and and 0:14:59.902 --> 0:15:02.062 the Reggie Whites of the world that you know kind 0:15:02.062 --> 0:15:05.822 of grew up on. That's not really what today's pass 0:15:05.902 --> 0:15:08.822 rusher looks like physically, right When we look at the 0:15:08.862 --> 0:15:12.982 Aidan Hutchinson's Cabon Thibodeaus, they don't look like that, right, 0:15:13.062 --> 0:15:16.062 So maybe that is an example of how the game 0:15:16.102 --> 0:15:18.342 has evolved a bit and now what teams are looking 0:15:18.382 --> 0:15:21.382 for as far as the body type and the skill 0:15:21.422 --> 0:15:25.142 set of the pass rushers of today. So let's jump 0:15:25.222 --> 0:15:27.182 right off with Aidan Hutchinson, a player that a lot 0:15:27.222 --> 0:15:28.782 of people think might be the first player taking in 0:15:28.822 --> 0:15:31.982 the draft. Yeah, and it's so interesting because he is 0:15:32.022 --> 0:15:35.222 not what you'd call a pure pass rusher in that 0:15:35.342 --> 0:15:39.062 old school sense, Bob. I think he's a very good prospect, 0:15:39.102 --> 0:15:41.342 and I think he'll be a very good pro but 0:15:41.542 --> 0:15:44.782 you wouldn't say that he's a bender and a flexible 0:15:44.862 --> 0:15:47.102 player the way you think of those guys that can 0:15:47.142 --> 0:15:51.302 truly bend the edge and flatten um. He does work 0:15:51.422 --> 0:15:54.102 extremely well and sort of that two to three yard 0:15:54.182 --> 0:15:58.182 metric where he's got very good short area quickness, but 0:15:58.222 --> 0:16:02.062 he doesn't have ideal flexibility and bend. His game is 0:16:02.102 --> 0:16:06.182 predicated much more are on that short airy explosiveness and 0:16:06.382 --> 0:16:11.342 power and highly refined and strong, heavy hands. And he 0:16:11.422 --> 0:16:14.062 had a staple move that he used over and over again, 0:16:14.102 --> 0:16:17.262 and he's going to need more than this in the NFL. Uh. 0:16:17.422 --> 0:16:19.222 And I don't know how much Michigan you did this year, 0:16:19.262 --> 0:16:23.342 if anybody, he had that move where he basically inside 0:16:23.422 --> 0:16:27.062 counter off an upfield step or two, and he really 0:16:27.142 --> 0:16:30.022 caught offensive tackles in the Big ten and with other 0:16:30.062 --> 0:16:32.902 teams they played, really caught them off guard, and that 0:16:33.102 --> 0:16:36.262 was his staple move. He'll need more than that as 0:16:36.302 --> 0:16:38.902 a pass rusher in the league, but I think he's 0:16:39.222 --> 0:16:44.262 he plays extremely hard and he has rapid fire hand 0:16:44.302 --> 0:16:48.182 movements and his hands are very very strong and heavy, 0:16:48.382 --> 0:16:51.222 and I think that will be his calling card far 0:16:51.302 --> 0:16:54.262 more than the ability to to get low and bend 0:16:54.302 --> 0:16:56.702 the edge. How about Tibel, I mean a guy that 0:16:56.702 --> 0:16:59.102 I've seen and again we don't do the mock drafts here, 0:16:59.142 --> 0:17:01.542 but if you look at them, and he's mocked all 0:17:01.542 --> 0:17:04.422 over the place, right, I've saw him now. Six months ago, 0:17:04.582 --> 0:17:07.822 he was kind of the de facto number one player 0:17:07.902 --> 0:17:10.582 on everyone's board everywhere. He was gonna be the first pick. 0:17:11.182 --> 0:17:13.942 Now I don't think I see him on maybe but 0:17:14.062 --> 0:17:17.942 a handful as the first pick. Some have him going 0:17:18.102 --> 0:17:21.982 later in the top ten. So he m The opinions 0:17:22.062 --> 0:17:25.542 on Thibodeau seem to have moved around a bit. Why 0:17:25.782 --> 0:17:28.102 And I think the reason for that is coaches, as 0:17:28.102 --> 0:17:30.302 you know the process, Bob, because you're you know, doing 0:17:30.342 --> 0:17:32.902 the jets for years and years you know the process. 0:17:33.222 --> 0:17:36.462 Coaches now get involved. Coaches don't get involved in these 0:17:36.542 --> 0:17:39.982 draft players until oh literally after the combine for the 0:17:40.022 --> 0:17:43.302 most part, because they're working with free agency. So now 0:17:43.342 --> 0:17:46.662 that coaches get involved and they really study the players, 0:17:46.942 --> 0:17:50.382 they see what these players are and the scheme adaptability 0:17:50.422 --> 0:17:53.742 and how they fit. They're not just looking at traits. 0:17:53.782 --> 0:17:55.782 And one of the things that really stands out with 0:17:55.822 --> 0:17:59.142 Thibodeaux when you watch his tape is he had some 0:17:59.222 --> 0:18:03.142 struggles flattening his rush path when he was able to 0:18:03.462 --> 0:18:07.022 leer the the high arc. And if you can't flatten 0:18:07.062 --> 0:18:10.382 your rush path, it's very, very difficult to be an 0:18:10.462 --> 0:18:13.942 outstanding edge pass rusher. And I thought that Thibodeaux the 0:18:13.982 --> 0:18:16.222 more I watched him, and I actually watched his tape 0:18:16.542 --> 0:18:18.942 from the last I guess he played three years. I 0:18:18.982 --> 0:18:22.102 watched tape each and every season that he played at Oregon, 0:18:22.502 --> 0:18:25.302 and I think after a while, I kind of said 0:18:25.342 --> 0:18:28.662 to myself, he reminds me of a twenty pounds less 0:18:28.822 --> 0:18:32.942 Jadeveon Clowney because he's a powerful man. He plays with 0:18:33.062 --> 0:18:36.862 power and hand strainth but there's some stiffness throughout his body. 0:18:37.262 --> 0:18:40.582 And think about Rdaveon Clowney number one pick, kind of 0:18:40.582 --> 0:18:42.542 a consensus number one pick when he came out of 0:18:42.542 --> 0:18:46.062 South Carolina, but it's likely he'll be with his fifth 0:18:46.102 --> 0:18:49.142 team before the age of twenty eight. And as you 0:18:49.182 --> 0:18:52.982 and I both know, premium edge pass rushers are not 0:18:53.102 --> 0:18:56.982 with five teams before the age of eight because Clowney 0:18:57.062 --> 0:19:00.262 does not have that bend and flexibility, and I think 0:19:00.302 --> 0:19:03.422 Thibodeaux is a little bit like that, and that ability 0:19:03.542 --> 0:19:06.542 to flatten your rush path is absolutely critical if you're 0:19:06.582 --> 0:19:08.982 going to be a big time age rusher in the NFL. 0:19:09.222 --> 0:19:12.382 You're gonna scare people with that comparison right now. They're 0:19:12.382 --> 0:19:14.102 gonna be guys who are gonna listen to this podcast. 0:19:14.182 --> 0:19:16.542 Tibodeau is gonna be taken by their team and they're 0:19:16.542 --> 0:19:20.622 gonna go, oh, no, Costel just compared him to the 0:19:20.622 --> 0:19:24.462 guy who now look jadeveon Clowney. He's a good football. Ultimately, 0:19:24.502 --> 0:19:26.902 he'll have he He is still in the middle of 0:19:26.942 --> 0:19:30.222 what is going to be a long NFL career. Exactly. 0:19:30.302 --> 0:19:33.022 He will always have a job. He'll always be a contributor, 0:19:33.062 --> 0:19:35.982 he'll always be on someone's defense, but he's never going 0:19:36.062 --> 0:19:38.342 to be the quote unquote number one pick in the 0:19:38.422 --> 0:19:41.302 draft that he was supposed to be And even the 0:19:41.582 --> 0:19:44.342 most die hard football nerds like me who listen to 0:19:44.342 --> 0:19:46.822 this podcast probably still are wondering, like when you say 0:19:46.902 --> 0:19:50.102 flatten the rush path and combined combined with the arc, 0:19:50.382 --> 0:19:51.942 I'm not even sure how many people listen to this 0:19:51.942 --> 0:19:55.542 podcast even know what that explain that and why you 0:19:55.582 --> 0:19:58.582 think it's so critical for Tibodeaux. So what what for 0:19:58.782 --> 0:20:02.822 pass rushers. One thing that explosive edge pass rushers try 0:20:02.862 --> 0:20:06.662 to do is they immediately want to challenge the outside 0:20:06.662 --> 0:20:09.862 of offensive tackles, because if you talk to old line coaches, 0:20:09.902 --> 0:20:12.502 the last thing they want their offensive tackles to do 0:20:12.982 --> 0:20:16.142 is to immediately turned to the sideline because when you 0:20:16.182 --> 0:20:19.422 turn to the sideline, you open yourself up pretty much 0:20:19.462 --> 0:20:22.422 for two way goes. So the way two way go 0:20:22.622 --> 0:20:24.862 meaning that you can get beat to the outside and 0:20:24.902 --> 0:20:27.782 you can then get beat by counters inside. So they 0:20:27.822 --> 0:20:31.062 teach offensive tackles to try to stay as square as 0:20:31.102 --> 0:20:35.102 possible for at least two steps in their vertical pass 0:20:35.182 --> 0:20:38.102 sets so they don't give up the inside. But then 0:20:38.142 --> 0:20:41.942 they still have that outside arm, the independent arm technique, 0:20:41.942 --> 0:20:45.742 the outside arm to theoretically push an edge pass rusher 0:20:46.062 --> 0:20:50.782 past the pocket, that's the goal. But these guys that 0:20:50.822 --> 0:20:55.462 now can really bend, they get underneath that arm, and 0:20:55.502 --> 0:20:58.662 then the key there is not just being able to 0:20:58.662 --> 0:21:01.382 get underneath that arm arm bob, but then you have 0:21:01.502 --> 0:21:04.342