Speaker 1: Tape Eds. It's a production of I Heart Media and
Speaker 1: the NFL. Welcome to a brand new week and a
Speaker 1: brand new edition of tape Eds Draft Season. It is April,
Speaker 1: Greg co Sell, we have officially reached Draft month. We
Speaker 1: can so we can see it on the horizon as uh.
Speaker 1: This is a different kind of podcast. Greg co Sell
Speaker 1: long time breaker down of the film at NFL Films,
Speaker 1: and he looks at the All twenty two and crawls
Speaker 1: behind the xs and ohs as much as anyone, not
Speaker 1: just game coverage, but also individual player coverage, getting us
Speaker 1: set for the draft, looking at the pros, but also
Speaker 1: looking at the college players and of course that is
Speaker 1: where our focus is at this time of the year.
Speaker 1: On Bible Shoes and a longtime radio voice of the
Speaker 1: New York Jets twenty plus years of NFL play by
Speaker 1: play experience and also a voice of college football at ESPN.
Speaker 1: So I've had a chance to see a lot of
Speaker 1: these guys on tape with my partners in games I've called.
Speaker 1: And again, this is not the mock draft po cast.
Speaker 1: This is more of a crawl behind the xs and
Speaker 1: os and hopefully take you inside the draft room. Podcast
Speaker 1: and Greig this is a week that we're gonna talk
Speaker 1: about the passing game, but the passing game in relation
Speaker 1: to then how teams draft defense and how there's been
Speaker 1: an evolution. Right, we see a lot of the college
Speaker 1: DNA now in the pros, a lot of the zone
Speaker 1: read stuff, a lot of the R P O stuff,
Speaker 1: the things that you know, I think the pro game
Speaker 1: kind of you know, scoffed at for decades and decades
Speaker 1: where you would see it in college football, but it
Speaker 1: didn't make its way to the NFL. Well. Now, the
Speaker 1: quarterbacks in college, the best ones are so proficient at
Speaker 1: running a lot of that stuff that they bring that
Speaker 1: with them to the pros now, because if you're a
Speaker 1: pro coordinator or a kid coach, why would you not
Speaker 1: want the guy to run for you what he was
Speaker 1: best at in college? And that I would assume also
Speaker 1: has to change the way the teams look at defensive
Speaker 1: players and prospects as well. We're gonna talk about some
Speaker 1: of the pass rushers and corners coming up a little
Speaker 1: bit later on, but at least just start wide angle
Speaker 1: lens philosophically, how that change to a certain extent in
Speaker 1: the pros from college and that d NA making its
Speaker 1: way to the NFL has changed offenses and the passing offenses,
Speaker 1: but also now how it changes the way seems look
Speaker 1: at defensive prospects. Yeah, Bob, you hit it right on
Speaker 1: the head. Really in the NFL now, the way people
Speaker 1: think about defense is you have to stop explosive plays,
Speaker 1: and percentage wise, far more explosive plays come out of
Speaker 1: the past game. So how do you go about stopping
Speaker 1: the past game. There's two ways, and there's a lot
Speaker 1: to unpack here, but you have to one impact the
Speaker 1: quarterback or two disrupt receivers. Now more old school, before
Speaker 1: the influx of r p O s and quick game throws,
Speaker 1: which are now very prevalent in the NFL, that thought
Speaker 1: was that you had to disrupt the quarterback. You had
Speaker 1: to impact the quarterback. You had to speed him up.
Speaker 1: You're not always going to sack him, but you had
Speaker 1: to speed up the quarterback and make it more difficult
Speaker 1: for him to play with that comfort level that all
Speaker 1: quarterbacks would like to play with. So the thought was
Speaker 1: pass rushers. Let's get pass rushers predominantly off the edge.
Speaker 1: Let's speed up the quarterback. Coverage could be both man
Speaker 1: and zone because that would become a function of your
Speaker 1: ability to speed up the quarterback. But now, and you
Speaker 1: nail this, Now you have so many more r p
Speaker 1: O elements in the NFL, so much more quick game
Speaker 1: so you're not going to get to the quarterback and
Speaker 1: speed him up the way you really like to. So
Speaker 1: who do you have to disrupt? You have to disrupt
Speaker 1: receivers so that the timing of those quick game throws
Speaker 1: is disrupted. So what does that mean. It means more
Speaker 1: man to man coverage, more pressed man coverage. You can't
Speaker 1: play off coverage zone because then those receivers on those
Speaker 1: quick routes like slant routes or glance routes or hitch routes,
Speaker 1: those routes are just free release routes if you're not
Speaker 1: in press man coverage. And you get all those quick
Speaker 1: game throws, of which an r p O is a
Speaker 1: quick game throw, and it's just it just becomes pitch
Speaker 1: and catch. So you have to now look at corners
Speaker 1: and their ability to line up and play press man
Speaker 1: coverage to a meaningful degree. Yeah, it's funny. It reminds
Speaker 1: me of a story that the particulars of this story
Speaker 1: make it, I think even more interesting I was calling
Speaker 1: a Purdue game with the late Joe Tiller as a coach,
Speaker 1: and this is how far back we're now going. And
Speaker 1: we just got into a philosophical football conversation. It was awesome.
Speaker 1: You know, we're just we're just talking ball and asking
Speaker 1: him philosophically, like how he recruited it Perdue right, Like
Speaker 1: why he knew he had to go out and get
Speaker 1: the Drew Breezes of the world and all the little
Speaker 1: receivers of the world because of Perdue. He was not
Speaker 1: going to out recruit Michigan, Ohio State, Penn State for
Speaker 1: the two and twenty five pound tailback, Like he wasn't
Speaker 1: going to get that guy. So he knew I have
Speaker 1: to win a different way. And he actually said, and
Speaker 1: this is I mean, this is I don't know, ten
Speaker 1: or twelve years ago, I was doing this game, maybe
Speaker 1: fifteen years ago. But he said, going back to the
Speaker 1: late seventies, the coaches all used to go to these clinics,
Speaker 1: and they all used to do clinics around the country
Speaker 1: for you know, gather coaches and teach. But then after
Speaker 1: that was over, he said the best part of it
Speaker 1: was all of the coaches giving the clinics would then
Speaker 1: go to the bar and sit around and get pictures
Speaker 1: of beer and just talk ball. Correct And he said
Speaker 1: he was sitting in a group of guys one time,
Speaker 1: this's like late seventies, and the conversation came up of
Speaker 1: what would make the perfect offense, If you could make
Speaker 1: the perfect offense, what would it be. And one of
Speaker 1: the guys at the table said, if I could design
Speaker 1: the perfect offense, it would be if I could somehow
Speaker 1: marry the option, would a quick passing game. So I
Speaker 1: don't know how you'd stopped that. How would a defense
Speaker 1: stop the option game and combine that with the quick
Speaker 1: passing game? And at the time it was almost like
Speaker 1: breakthrough cutting edge. But everyone is sitting at the table now,
Speaker 1: I mean now fast forward twenty years thirty years later,
Speaker 1: what our teams doing r pos right? Like, they're marrying
Speaker 1: a lot of those option principles with the quick passing game.
Speaker 1: It's really hard to stop. And the guy that said
Speaker 1: that was Jack Elway, who, of course I mean his son.
Speaker 1: If you could go into a lab and build like
Speaker 1: a robot quarterback for the modern day NFL, back then,
Speaker 1: the last thing you do was probably about a whole
Speaker 1: bunch of RPOs with John Elway. But his dad, of course,
Speaker 1: is saying, if I could find a way to marry
Speaker 1: the option with the quick passing game, I think that
Speaker 1: would be impossible to stop. And it just goes to
Speaker 1: show how much foresight he had, because how many years
Speaker 1: later that that is a lot of what is baked
Speaker 1: into not only college football, but also even now some
Speaker 1: of today's NFL offenses. And it's funny you say that,
Speaker 1: because in college football that can really really work effectively
Speaker 1: for a number of reasons. One of course is the
Speaker 1: position of the hash marks. The wide side of the
Speaker 1: field is extremely wide and difficult to defend. But in
Speaker 1: the NFL, as you and I both know, you can
Speaker 1: do those kinds of things, and they certainly can be effective.
Speaker 1: But you are going to get to third down, and
Speaker 1: you are going to get to third down in six
Speaker 1: plus seven plus, you're going to get into those situations
Speaker 1: where your offense can't function off deception and misdirection the
Speaker 1: same way it can on first and ten or second
Speaker 1: and four. What we would view BOB is normal down
Speaker 1: and distant situations. So at that point in the NFL,
Speaker 1: as an offense, you have to be able to have
Speaker 1: a drop back passing game, and as a defense, you
Speaker 1: must be able to defend a drop back passing game.
Speaker 1: And that's why pass rush becomes so critical. And obviously
Speaker 1: almost every coach in the league would love to be
Speaker 1: able to rush for and speed up the quarterback, even
Speaker 1: sacked the quarterback, and then have seven in coverage. But
Speaker 1: I've talked to so many defensive coaches through the years,
Speaker 1: and I remember for years and years Rod Rust, who
Speaker 1: has since passed away, would sit with me on Mondays.
Speaker 1: He sat with me for four or five years straight
Speaker 1: when he retired from coaching, and all he kept saying was,
Speaker 1: if you can't get there with four, you got to
Speaker 1: get there with five. If you can't get there with five,
Speaker 1: you gotta rush a sixth. The point being that if
Speaker 1: you cannot impact the quarterback in the NFL, whatever down
Speaker 1: it is, you know, obviously third down is the one
Speaker 1: that is the money down, the possession down. If you
Speaker 1: cannot impact the quarterback, it is very difficult to play
Speaker 1: quality third down defense in the NFL. And look how
Speaker 1: important pass rush is. All we have to do is
Speaker 1: go back to the Super Bowl. We saw that in
Speaker 1: the second half of that game, and I can't I
Speaker 1: don't know off the top of my head how many
Speaker 1: of those sacks came on third down, but obviously Joe
Speaker 1: Burrow is sacked six times by the rams On in
Speaker 1: the second half of that game, and a lot of
Speaker 1: them came from multiple front looks. If you notice in
Speaker 1: the NFL, so many teams now are doing so many
Speaker 1: more things with their front looks out of their sub defenses,
Speaker 1: meaning five defensive backs, six defensive backs, some teams with
Speaker 1: seven defensive backs because they're trying to create opportunities to
Speaker 1: put pressure on the quarterback. Well, two questions about the
Speaker 1: two positions we're gonna talk about again kind of wide
Speaker 1: angle lens before we get the specific guys. How much
Speaker 1: do you think it now changes the way or the
Speaker 1: traits that an NFL team is looking for in a
Speaker 1: pass rusher, Like with the great pass rusher of the
Speaker 1: eighties and nineties, the Reggie Whites of the world, would
Speaker 1: they still the Bruce Smith's, would they still be what
Speaker 1: they were then in today's game with the quick passing
Speaker 1: game or the way that these offenses now run or now,
Speaker 1: I mean it has it changed more to like the
Speaker 1: Von Miller smaller bend the edge. Guy who stands up
Speaker 1: half the time a lot of times doesn't even have
Speaker 1: corrects hand on the ground. How much do you think
Speaker 1: it has now changed the way that the NFL views
Speaker 1: pass rushers and the skill set they're looking for from
Speaker 1: a college player. It's a great question, and to me,
Speaker 1: I think one of the things you really want to
Speaker 1: look for when you evaluate college pass rushers coming to
Speaker 1: the NFL is you want to see how they work
Speaker 1: with and let's say a three to five yard metric
Speaker 1: off the snap of the ball. Because there's a lot
Speaker 1: of guys that can make second reaction sacks and there's
Speaker 1: nothing wrong with that, But if that's the way you're
Speaker 1: going to judge pass rushers and evaluate them, I think
Speaker 1: you're making a mistake. You need to see how a
Speaker 1: guy works right off the snap in that three to
Speaker 1: five yard metric and you hit it right on the head.
Speaker 1: You have to be able to bend somewhere along the line,
Speaker 1: and you have to be able to then flatten and
Speaker 1: close to the quarterback. Look are their power pass rushers?
Speaker 1: Are there guys who use their hands exceptionally well, I
Speaker 1: mean you can think of the boats of brothers. They're
Speaker 1: really good using their hands, but then they play off
Speaker 1: that contact and then they have speed and burst. At
Speaker 1: some point, you're going to have to have speed and burst.
Speaker 1: At some point you're going to have to be able
Speaker 1: to bend and flatten, because you if you can't do that,
Speaker 1: it's very, very difficult to sack the quarterback. And obviously
Speaker 1: you're going to have to be able to win on
Speaker 1: the high side, meaning the outside edge of the offensive tackle,
Speaker 1: and you're going to have to be able to counter
Speaker 1: and win on the low side, the inside shoulder of
Speaker 1: the offensive tackle. But that bend flexibility element, to me,
Speaker 1: Bob is so so important. Yeah, I guess the great
Speaker 1: player would always be the great player, right, I mean
Speaker 1: you can get a Bruce Smith or a Reggie White
Speaker 1: or a Lawrence Taylor. Bruce Smith used to get he
Speaker 1: almost he almost got so low And I can't believe
Speaker 1: I just thought of this. It reminded me of Tom
Speaker 1: Sieber pitching, where that fact need we would have so
Speaker 1: much dirt on it, remember those clips because he would
Speaker 1: get so low delivering the ball. Bruce Smith would get
Speaker 1: so low. He had tremendous spend in flexibility. Only this
Speaker 1: podcast was somehow bring Bruce Smith and Tom Siever here
Speaker 1: you go together in the same comparison up before we
Speaker 1: take a break, same question regarding corners, right, like, if
Speaker 1: you go back to the corners of yesteryear, what Dion
Speaker 1: or Lester Hayes or I mean even maybe the more
Speaker 1: modern guys like Champ Bailey or or you know Rivus,
Speaker 1: like has the position of corner. Now we look at
Speaker 1: this draft and we'll talk about the Stingleys and the
Speaker 1: Sauce Gardeners of the world. But has that changed, Like
Speaker 1: the traits you're looking for. It used to be, all right,
Speaker 1: you're our best corner. You just go shut down the
Speaker 1: other team's six ft three, two ten pounds stud wide
Speaker 1: receiver and we'll figure out the rest from there. But
Speaker 1: offenses have changed, and I think, like, look at Tyreek Hill,
Speaker 1: right and he might be the most productive wide receiver
Speaker 1: in the NFL, and he is certainly not the body
Speaker 1: type that they were looking for in a wide receiver
Speaker 1: even ten years ago in the NFL. So how much
Speaker 1: has that evolution now changed with the offense is of today?
Speaker 1: Maybe the trades you're looking for in a corner, well,
Speaker 1: to me, I think you must be able to play
Speaker 1: man to man coverage if you're going to be a
Speaker 1: high quality corner, because I think the days of just
Speaker 1: lining up and playing zone concepts such as Tony Dungee's
Speaker 1: Cover two, which was obviously extremely successful and in many
Speaker 1: ways trend setting, I think the days of just playing
Speaker 1: like that are over in the NFL. So I think
Speaker 1: your corners need to be able to line up and
Speaker 1: play man. And there's essentially two forms of press man.
Speaker 1: There's what we call mirror match press man, where you
Speaker 1: don't necessarily jam the receiver, you wait for him to
Speaker 1: declare his release off the line of scrimmage, and then
Speaker 1: you just get in his hip pocket, whether it's the
Speaker 1: inside or the outside. Champ Bailey was a master at
Speaker 1: that um and I think you have to be able
Speaker 1: to play that in today's NFL. I think if you
Speaker 1: can't line up with corners and match up man to man,
Speaker 1: particularly with the infusion of three by one sets where
Speaker 1: there's a single receiver to the short side of the field,
Speaker 1: you've got to be able to match up to that
Speaker 1: boundary ex receiver man to man somewhere along the line,
Speaker 1: and I think it's critical that corners coming out today
Speaker 1: can do that. Well, in the top ten of this draft,
Speaker 1: there will be some pass rushers and there will be
Speaker 1: some corners drafted. Right, and there's no doubt about it.
Speaker 1: When we look at the top prospects of this draft,
Speaker 1: we're gonna see both positions taken. When we come back,
Speaker 1: we're gonna start to talk about some of those top
Speaker 1: prospects at both positions, at pass rusher, end at corner.
Speaker 1: Bobo schusan Great Cosll. This is Taped's draft season, Bobo
Speaker 1: shus and Great co Sell. We are back on Tapeds
Speaker 1: draft season, talking philosophically about how offenses and maybe the
Speaker 1: need for pass rushers and corners has changed in the NFL.
Speaker 1: But now let's get to some of the specific guys.
Speaker 1: And again, you know, Greg, we talked about those prototypical,
Speaker 1: big monster pass rushers like the Bruce Smith's and and
Speaker 1: the Reggie Whites of the world that you know kind
Speaker 1: of grew up on. That's not really what today's pass
Speaker 1: rusher looks like physically, right When we look at the
Speaker 1: Aidan Hutchinson's Cabon Thibodeaus, they don't look like that, right,
Speaker 1: So maybe that is an example of how the game
Speaker 1: has evolved a bit and now what teams are looking
Speaker 1: for as far as the body type and the skill
Speaker 1: set of the pass rushers of today. So let's jump
Speaker 1: right off with Aidan Hutchinson, a player that a lot
Speaker 1: of people think might be the first player taking in
Speaker 1: the draft. Yeah, and it's so interesting because he is
Speaker 1: not what you'd call a pure pass rusher in that
Speaker 1: old school sense, Bob. I think he's a very good prospect,
Speaker 1: and I think he'll be a very good pro but
Speaker 1: you wouldn't say that he's a bender and a flexible
Speaker 1: player the way you think of those guys that can
Speaker 1: truly bend the edge and flatten um. He does work
Speaker 1: extremely well and sort of that two to three yard
Speaker 1: metric where he's got very good short area quickness, but
Speaker 1: he doesn't have ideal flexibility and bend. His game is
Speaker 1: predicated much more are on that short airy explosiveness and
Speaker 1: power and highly refined and strong, heavy hands. And he
Speaker 1: had a staple move that he used over and over again,
Speaker 1: and he's going to need more than this in the NFL. Uh.
Speaker 1: And I don't know how much Michigan you did this year,
Speaker 1: if anybody, he had that move where he basically inside
Speaker 1: counter off an upfield step or two, and he really
Speaker 1: caught offensive tackles in the Big ten and with other
Speaker 1: teams they played, really caught them off guard, and that
Speaker 1: was his staple move. He'll need more than that as
Speaker 1: a pass rusher in the league, but I think he's
Speaker 1: he plays extremely hard and he has rapid fire hand
Speaker 1: movements and his hands are very very strong and heavy,
Speaker 1: and I think that will be his calling card far
Speaker 1: more than the ability to to get low and bend
Speaker 1: the edge. How about Tibel, I mean a guy that
Speaker 1: I've seen and again we don't do the mock drafts here,
Speaker 1: but if you look at them, and he's mocked all
Speaker 1: over the place, right, I've saw him now. Six months ago,
Speaker 1: he was kind of the de facto number one player
Speaker 1: on everyone's board everywhere. He was gonna be the first pick.
Speaker 1: Now I don't think I see him on maybe but
Speaker 1: a handful as the first pick. Some have him going
Speaker 1: later in the top ten. So he m The opinions
Speaker 1: on Thibodeau seem to have moved around a bit. Why
Speaker 1: And I think the reason for that is coaches, as
Speaker 1: you know the process, Bob, because you're you know, doing
Speaker 1: the jets for years and years you know the process.
Speaker 1: Coaches now get involved. Coaches don't get involved in these
Speaker 1: draft players until oh literally after the combine for the
Speaker 1: most part, because they're working with free agency. So now
Speaker 1: that coaches get involved and they really study the players,
Speaker 1: they see what these players are and the scheme adaptability
Speaker 1: and how they fit. They're not just looking at traits.
Speaker 1: And one of the things that really stands out with
Speaker 1: Thibodeaux when you watch his tape is he had some
Speaker 1: struggles flattening his rush path when he was able to
Speaker 1: leer the the high arc. And if you can't flatten
Speaker 1: your rush path, it's very, very difficult to be an
Speaker 1: outstanding edge pass rusher. And I thought that Thibodeaux the
Speaker 1: more I watched him, and I actually watched his tape
Speaker 1: from the last I guess he played three years. I
Speaker 1: watched tape each and every season that he played at Oregon,
Speaker 1: and I think after a while, I kind of said
Speaker 1: to myself, he reminds me of a twenty pounds less
Speaker 1: Jadeveon Clowney because he's a powerful man. He plays with
Speaker 1: power and hand strainth but there's some stiffness throughout his body.
Speaker 1: And think about Rdaveon Clowney number one pick, kind of
Speaker 1: a consensus number one pick when he came out of
Speaker 1: South Carolina, but it's likely he'll be with his fifth
Speaker 1: team before the age of twenty eight. And as you
Speaker 1: and I both know, premium edge pass rushers are not
Speaker 1: with five teams before the age of eight because Clowney
Speaker 1: does not have that bend and flexibility, and I think
Speaker 1: Thibodeaux is a little bit like that, and that ability
Speaker 1: to flatten your rush path is absolutely critical if you're
Speaker 1: going to be a big time age rusher in the NFL.
Speaker 1: You're gonna scare people with that comparison right now. They're
Speaker 1: gonna be guys who are gonna listen to this podcast.
Speaker 1: Tibodeau is gonna be taken by their team and they're
Speaker 1: gonna go, oh, no, Costel just compared him to the
Speaker 1: guy who now look jadeveon Clowney. He's a good football. Ultimately,
Speaker 1: he'll have he He is still in the middle of
Speaker 1: what is going to be a long NFL career. Exactly.
Speaker 1: He will always have a job. He'll always be a contributor,
Speaker 1: he'll always be on someone's defense, but he's never going
Speaker 1: to be the quote unquote number one pick in the
Speaker 1: draft that he was supposed to be And even the
Speaker 1: most die hard football nerds like me who listen to
Speaker 1: this podcast probably still are wondering, like when you say
Speaker 1: flatten the rush path and combined combined with the arc,
Speaker 1: I'm not even sure how many people listen to this
Speaker 1: podcast even know what that explain that and why you
Speaker 1: think it's so critical for Tibodeaux. So what what for
Speaker 1: pass rushers. One thing that explosive edge pass rushers try
Speaker 1: to do is they immediately want to challenge the outside
Speaker 1: of offensive tackles, because if you talk to old line coaches,
Speaker 1: the last thing they want their offensive tackles to do
Speaker 1: is to immediately turned to the sideline because when you
Speaker 1: turn to the sideline, you open yourself up pretty much
Speaker 1: for two way goes. So the way two way go
Speaker 1: meaning that you can get beat to the outside and
Speaker 1: you can then get beat by counters inside. So they
Speaker 1: teach offensive tackles to try to stay as square as
Speaker 1: possible for at least two steps in their vertical pass
Speaker 1: sets so they don't give up the inside. But then
Speaker 1: they still have that outside arm, the independent arm technique,
Speaker 1: the outside arm to theoretically push an edge pass rusher
Speaker 1: past the pocket, that's the goal. But these guys that
Speaker 1: now can really bend, they get underneath that arm, and
Speaker 1: then the key there is not just being able to
Speaker 1: get underneath that arm arm bob, but then you have
Speaker 1: to be able to turn your body as a pass
Speaker 1: rusher and flatten. Otherwise you're just running by the quarterback.
Speaker 1: And offensive tackles love it when you just run by
Speaker 1: the quarterback. They just push you and you're done. You've
Speaker 1: seen that a thousand times. So you have to be
Speaker 1: able to turn your body on that inside leg and
Speaker 1: flatten your rush so that you can then close to
Speaker 1: the quarterback. Otherwise you're just out of the pass rush.
Speaker 1: And Thibodeau is a guy that at times showed ruggles
Speaker 1: with that. Struggles a little bit with that. Now, is
Speaker 1: that something that you think can be learned can be
Speaker 1: taught in the NFL? Or do you need to see
Speaker 1: that on tape before you're going to spend a real
Speaker 1: high draft choice on him? Just like Clowney, I think
Speaker 1: there's your body. Some guys can't quite do that. Thibodeaux
Speaker 1: showed a little of it at times, but enough where
Speaker 1: I sensed it's a question and Like I said, I
Speaker 1: watched a ton of Thibodeaux, so I don't think that's
Speaker 1: going to be his calling card as a pass rusher. Um.
Speaker 1: So we'll see, but I don't think he does that
Speaker 1: just as a matter or of course. I mean, just
Speaker 1: to throw out a name Arnold uh, I think it
Speaker 1: is from the state. He can do that. Now, he's
Speaker 1: a smaller man um in terms of height than Thibodeaux,
Speaker 1: but he has the ability to bend the edge. Now
Speaker 1: he's got some other issues he's got to deal with.
Speaker 1: He only works the high side of the tackle, meaning
Speaker 1: the outside, and you can't just live in the NFL
Speaker 1: working one side of offensive tackles as an edge rusher.
Speaker 1: You become too easy to defend if you don't have counters.
Speaker 1: But he can bend, whereas Thibodeau struggles to do that.
Speaker 1: A little bit interesting, give me like thirty seconds on
Speaker 1: a couple of other names while we have an opportunity here.
Speaker 1: How about Jermaine Johnson. Jermaine Johnson is a player who's
Speaker 1: tape I absolutely loved, and you know I saw him
Speaker 1: a little bit at Georgia a year ago because he's
Speaker 1: a transfer from Georgia. Because Georgia has all five stars,
Speaker 1: and guys don't play every snap at Georgia, and Johnson
Speaker 1: probably wanted to go somewhere he could play every snap,
Speaker 1: so he went to Florida State. He really he looks
Speaker 1: the part. I mean, I think that The way I'll
Speaker 1: answer that, because we want to get to some more guys,
Speaker 1: is it would not surprise me Bob if in two, three,
Speaker 1: four years he's the best pass rusher of this group,
Speaker 1: I think he's only scratching the surface of his ability
Speaker 1: to rush the quarterback. He has length, he can bend,
Speaker 1: he's got flexibility. He's got extremely long arms, which is
Speaker 1: a very important attribute when you talk to scouts and coaches. Uh,
Speaker 1: he's a really really good athlete and for his kind
Speaker 1: of lean, wiry frame, he's got power to him. So
Speaker 1: I think ultimately he could end up being the best
Speaker 1: best pass rusher of this group. About George Karlaftas, Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's a fascinating guy because he was a shot put
Speaker 1: champion in the state of Indiana as a high school kid.
Speaker 1: His upper body and his hands are as powerful as
Speaker 1: they come. He really is a strong man, active hands,
Speaker 1: powerful hands. The issue for him is his lower body.
Speaker 1: Does not necessarily poured it. He's a little stiff and
Speaker 1: not overly athletic with the lower part of his body.
Speaker 1: So there are a lot of pass rushes where if
Speaker 1: he did get stopped initially, he stopped his feet, and
Speaker 1: if you stop your feet in the NFL as a
Speaker 1: pass rusher, you're not going to get to the quarterback.
Speaker 1: So he's a fascinating guy because the strength that he
Speaker 1: has the upper body and hand strength is so so good,
Speaker 1: but he just does not have a lower body that
Speaker 1: goes along with it. So I'm really fascinating to see
Speaker 1: him in the NFL. And one other guy to talk
Speaker 1: about I think that's really fascinating is David a. Jabo, Right,
Speaker 1: the guy who is gets hurt on his pro day.
Speaker 1: This is gonna be like, we're gonna draft him and
Speaker 1: stash him maybe for a year. He might not play
Speaker 1: next year, but showed so much promise. Yes at Michigan,
Speaker 1: what it teams do with him? Yeah, again, who knows
Speaker 1: about an achilles. That's a really bad injury obviously, but
Speaker 1: let's assume he's back normal. When you put on Michigan tape,
Speaker 1: of which I watched a lot, you could see immediately
Speaker 1: that a Jabo is just a more naturally explosive human
Speaker 1: being than Hutchinson um. And so with Jabo has really light,
Speaker 1: active feed, He's got really good quickness. He's explosive off
Speaker 1: the ball, particularly when he's a wide nine pass rusher,
Speaker 1: meaning he split far outside the offensive tackle and he
Speaker 1: has that bend in flexibility. He can dip his shoulder,
Speaker 1: he can win off the edge, he can get low.
Speaker 1: And he showed his second gear as he flattened, and
Speaker 1: that's really important for guys that if they can flatten
Speaker 1: instead of kind of losing their balance. Some guys do that,
Speaker 1: they try to flatten and they lose their balance. He
Speaker 1: just exploded. So I think he's a fascinating prospect. Assuming
Speaker 1: health probably not a factor this year at all, but
Speaker 1: he has big time traits to rush the quarterback. Really
Speaker 1: interesting look at a lot of the pass rushers, plenty
Speaker 1: of corners as well to talk about. We do that
Speaker 1: when we come back on TAPEDS Draft season. Back here
Speaker 1: on TAPEDS Draft Season, Bobo shots on Greg co Cell
Speaker 1: talked about the philosophy of the offenses and the changes
Speaker 1: that we've seen college to the pros. Talked about the
Speaker 1: pass rushers and obviously, Greg, when you talk offense, you
Speaker 1: talk about how it impacts your desire to have corners
Speaker 1: on your team as well, and there will be some
Speaker 1: very highly drafted corners. Let's get to some of those guys.
Speaker 1: Sauce Gardner from Cincinnati. I think he tweeted yesterday, I'm
Speaker 1: the best player in the draft, so humility is not
Speaker 1: going to be his issue, right Like, I think even
Speaker 1: has a lot of self confidence he's gonna bring to
Speaker 1: the NFL. Is it warranted? Could Sauce Gardner end up
Speaker 1: being the most impactful player in this draft? You know,
Speaker 1: I tweeted the same thing about myself yesterday, Bob, but
Speaker 1: nobody took notice. Strange, Uh, you know I did, because
Speaker 1: obviously I think you are underrated. Um. I really like
Speaker 1: Sauce Gardner's tape, and there's a perfect example of a
Speaker 1: guy in college. As you know that the white side
Speaker 1: of the field is wide, so the boundary side is
Speaker 1: smaller than in the NFL. He was the boundary corner
Speaker 1: in the Cincinnati dfense and he essentially played man coverage
Speaker 1: and very often it was what we call zero man
Speaker 1: because the safety to the boundary side was Brian Cook,
Speaker 1: who's a very good prospect in his own right, but
Speaker 1: he rarely helped out Sauce Gardner, so he essentially was
Speaker 1: playing zero man coverage in Cincinnati's defense. I think he's
Speaker 1: the outfit dog corner in this draft class. Um. He
Speaker 1: fits the profile as well as you can fit the profile.
Speaker 1: Six three, long, lean, competitive athletic. Um. He's an annoying player.
Speaker 1: If you're a receiver, he gets in your face. UM.
Speaker 1: He challenges receiver to receivers to match his level of
Speaker 1: swagger and confidence. Um. I think that he can line
Speaker 1: up and play man coverage. He's got really long arms,
Speaker 1: and you know what, that's a factor at corner. People
Speaker 1: might not think that, but it's a big factor because
Speaker 1: it allows you to get your hands on a lot
Speaker 1: of throws. So even if let's say you just beat
Speaker 1: a little bit on a vertical throw and then the
Speaker 1: receivers just a little on top of you, bob, that
Speaker 1: arm length is a factor. And for a guy that's
Speaker 1: kind of high cut in long legged, his ten yards
Speaker 1: split in the forty yard dash was very very good.
Speaker 1: So I think sauce Gardner to me, because of his
Speaker 1: ability to play press man, which he did almost every snap.
Speaker 1: It seemed that Cincinnati um is really the attribute that
Speaker 1: puts him over the top. Derek Stingley from LSU. Here's
Speaker 1: a guy that I think is really interesting because I
Speaker 1: had some LSU games this season. They were not going
Speaker 1: to be real good. We knew how much talent they
Speaker 1: had lost from when Borrow was there, and they won
Speaker 1: the National championship, and there were these whispers with Stingley
Speaker 1: like he's hurt. But this might be more of a
Speaker 1: get ready for the NFL Draft opt out than it is.
Speaker 1: He actually has a season long injury, which I think
Speaker 1: actually makes him even more attractive now as an NFL prospect,
Speaker 1: because it seems like the whisper is what you're worried
Speaker 1: about as all man he missed the whole year last
Speaker 1: year basically, and how hurt is he? I don't know
Speaker 1: that he really was, like season ending injury hurt. I
Speaker 1: think they might have leaned on that as the excuse
Speaker 1: because it's kind of a bad look to say I'm
Speaker 1: opting out and I'm just gonna go get ready for
Speaker 1: the NFL Draft. But I mean, you know, people are
Speaker 1: worried about whether or not you know, he's heard or
Speaker 1: played least. I mean how Jamar Chase do after sitting
Speaker 1: out a year. I think people worried about that. Anyway,
Speaker 1: I don't think the NFL guys inside the rooms really
Speaker 1: worried about that. Do you know? You get it right
Speaker 1: on the head and look at Jamar Chase and Micah Parsons.
Speaker 1: I think they did okay. Um, they're not bad. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So I mean Stanley and I went back and looked
Speaker 1: at his two thousand nineteen tape when he was a
Speaker 1: freshman and burst onto the scene, and people just said,
Speaker 1: this guy's the best corner around. Um, he certainly has
Speaker 1: all the physical and athletic traits. Um, he's got size,
Speaker 1: he's got athleticism, he's got fluidity, he's got suddenness, he's competitive. Um,
Speaker 1: you watch him play mirror match press man. You see it.
Speaker 1: Knee been, patient, balanced, body control, easy transition, flips his hips. Um,
Speaker 1: he looks the part. There's a couple of things that
Speaker 1: he absolutely must work on. And I was taught this
Speaker 1: by somebody, and I can't remember who's years ago, but
Speaker 1: he does have a tendency in press man. His first
Speaker 1: move bob as he gets back on his heels, as
Speaker 1: his first reaction to the receiver and if you get
Speaker 1: back on your heels, you can compensate for that. In
Speaker 1: college football, you want to be careful about that. In
Speaker 1: the NFL, where the receivers are better now, I think
Speaker 1: that can be fixed, but I think that's something that
Speaker 1: needs to be addressed. Um. I did not think he
Speaker 1: was as comfortable or as good playing off coverage as
Speaker 1: he was playing press man. So to me, he's really
Speaker 1: a press man corner and I think that that fits
Speaker 1: how he wants to play. So it'll be very interesting.
Speaker 1: He only played ten games in his final two seasons,
Speaker 1: so he's a guy that has not played a lot
Speaker 1: of football over the last two years. How about Trent McDuffie. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's a guy. I really loved watching him on tape
Speaker 1: because this kid is I mean, you can tell that
Speaker 1: he loves playing football and and you know, you and
Speaker 1: I both know there's some guys who are good at football,
Speaker 1: but they don't live it and are super passionate about it.
Speaker 1: I mean, this guy is playing personality, to use the term,
Speaker 1: I like, he is super competitive, He's mentally tough. He
Speaker 1: was like a missile when he played defended the run.
Speaker 1: He would tackle um and I think that's really important. Um.
Speaker 1: I think at the University of Washington that's really important
Speaker 1: because all their corners are really good. They play their
Speaker 1: run with competitiveness, and their ability from off coverage to
Speaker 1: plant and drive forward is really really good. They must
Speaker 1: look for that at the University of Washington. But this kid,
Speaker 1: to me, is very smooth, very easy transition opening his hips.
Speaker 1: He can play mirror match really really well. Um. He
Speaker 1: squeezed receivers to the outside in mirror match. When they
Speaker 1: were released outside, he was physical with them. He got
Speaker 1: right in there, grill and he pushed him to the sideline.
Speaker 1: And he loved playing that way. And like I said,
Speaker 1: I thought he was really good in Zone two. He
Speaker 1: showed great situational awareness. This is something watching NFL tape
Speaker 1: off just very quickly that aggravates me to no end.
Speaker 1: When you see teams playing zone and let's say it's
Speaker 1: third and twelve and they're playing zone and you see
Speaker 1: the outside corner, whether it's cover three, you know, Cover
Speaker 1: four or whatever it may be, and he jumps a
Speaker 1: five yard route and it's third and twelve. There's no
Speaker 1: reason for that. You have to have situational awareness. And
Speaker 1: I think McDuffie was really really good with that. He
Speaker 1: understood down in distance and its impact on his positioning
Speaker 1: in zone coverage. How about Kyer Elam, Yeah, he's He
Speaker 1: was a fun guy to watch too, because he's another
Speaker 1: guy that was super super physical. I mean, he just
Speaker 1: wanted to get in your face. And some of these
Speaker 1: guys have to learn in the NFL to be a
Speaker 1: little careful because obviously in college football, as you know,
Speaker 1: you can be a lot more physical beyond five yards
Speaker 1: and you cannot in the NFL. But he just crowded
Speaker 1: receivers off the ball, He disrupted their releases. He was
Speaker 1: very physical through the early part of the route stem.
Speaker 1: There was a physical presence to the way in which
Speaker 1: he played. Um another guy who squeezed outside release routes
Speaker 1: to the sideline with physicality. There was a competitive edge
Speaker 1: to his play. Um another guy that has the plan
Speaker 1: and drive quickness to react to throws in front of him.
Speaker 1: Um another guy that I really really liked, and he
Speaker 1: predominantly like Sauce Gardner, he predominantly lined up at boundary
Speaker 1: corner in the Florida defense, so he played a lot
Speaker 1: of man to man coverage. Kyler Gordon what about him. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that boy Washington does get corners, don't they? They sure do.
Speaker 1: It seems like every year these guys get corners. Um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Gordon is another guy that is I think a really
Speaker 1: really interesting prospect um And I think he's another really
Speaker 1: physical not as physical as McDuffie, but he's a better
Speaker 1: athlete than McDuffie. Um. I think he's a more explosive mover.
Speaker 1: I don't think he's as refined in the way in
Speaker 1: which he plays his techniques, but I think people will
Speaker 1: get very excited about his explosive traits. One quick question.
Speaker 1: We there are other guys to talk about, obviously, and
Speaker 1: on future episodes as we build up towards the draft,
Speaker 1: will definitely get some of the further off the radar
Speaker 1: pass rushers and some further off the radar corners that
Speaker 1: might be drafted in later rounds. Some guys you think
Speaker 1: are diamonds and the rough. But there's no question that
Speaker 1: Gardner and Stingley are going to go and go high.
Speaker 1: These other guys that you mentioned, are these first round
Speaker 1: gradable players? Are these guys you think are high second round,
Speaker 1: if not in the first All of the guys that
Speaker 1: we just run through our Should teams expect and should
Speaker 1: fans expect their teams to be drafting these guys if
Speaker 1: they need a corner real high um. Corners a premium position,
Speaker 1: as we've discussed. And I think there's one other player
Speaker 1: that will be fascinating, and that's Roger McCreary from Auburn,
Speaker 1: who I his tape I really really liked. And you know,
Speaker 1: he's the same size as Tredavious White, and if you
Speaker 1: put on his tape versus k Shawn Booty of l
Speaker 1: s U and Jamison Williams and John Mitchie of Alabama,
Speaker 1: you'll see a really good corner um. Now people are
Speaker 1: very much worried about his arm length. People say, well,
Speaker 1: no one's played corner in the NFL at a higher
Speaker 1: level with his really short arms. I don't know the
Speaker 1: answer to that, but you know, I think that there's
Speaker 1: going to be a lot of corners drafted in the
Speaker 1: top forty because it's such a premium position in this league.
Speaker 1: You have to have corners, and you never have enough
Speaker 1: because how many teams now play the majority and it varies,
Speaker 1: but the majority of their their defensive snaps in nickel
Speaker 1: or in dime it's it's probably well more than fifty.
Speaker 1: Some teams play sevent The Buffalo Bills are a nickel defense.
Speaker 1: They do not play base. So you know, having corners
Speaker 1: is really important. So the position is absolutely critical. So
Speaker 1: corners are going to get drafted high. And we'll have
Speaker 1: more to talk about as we continue to take you
Speaker 1: up towards the draft. Hit us up on social media,
Speaker 1: let us know the players and player positions you'd like
Speaker 1: to hear about. Coming up on our next episode when
Speaker 1: it drops on Thursday, we'll speak to former Ohio State
Speaker 1: and NFL linebacker Bobby Carpenter. You'll walk us through how
Speaker 1: players prepare for the jump from college to the pros.
Speaker 1: We'll get his thoughts as well on some players. Obviously
Speaker 1: he lives in that Columbus you know, Ohio corridor. We
Speaker 1: got the Ohio State guys, the Cincinnati guys to talk
Speaker 1: about with him, as well as the rest of the
Speaker 1: draft as a whole. Join us again Thursday for our
Speaker 1: next episode of Tape Heads Draft Season