1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:10,280 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:16,640 Speaker 2: I'm Danny Shapiro, and this is family Secrets, the secrets 3 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:19,079 Speaker 2: that are kept from us, the secrets we keep from others, 4 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 2: and the secrets we keep from ourselves. My guest today 5 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 2: is Dina Gashman, journalist and author of the recent essay 6 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 2: collection So Sorry for Your Loss. Dina's is a story 7 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 2: of the long reach of a buried family secret through 8 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 2: the generations, and the desire of one tenacious woman to 9 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:49,839 Speaker 2: understand what really happened and how to make it right, 10 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:53,559 Speaker 2: or at least as right as possible. 11 00:00:56,760 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 3: I was born in Fort Arts, Texas. We live to 12 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 3: Euston when I was in third grade, and my parents 13 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:06,319 Speaker 3: were high school sweethearts, so my family goes back in Texas, 14 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 3: you know, generation. So my childhood was actually pretty wonderful. 15 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 3: I was outside all the time. This was pre technology, 16 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 3: so you know, my sisters and I were all was 17 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 3: outside making mud pies. And I had very loving parents, 18 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 3: and I was close with my both sets of grandparents, 19 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 3: and we were all pretty physically close together, so I 20 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:28,319 Speaker 3: was spending the night with them all the time. But 21 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:33,399 Speaker 3: it was it was actually very happy and wonderful, and 22 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 3: I don't think. There wasn't much that I knew about 23 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:40,400 Speaker 3: my grandparents except that they were just wonderful people. I 24 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 3: didn't really, obviously as a kid, pay attention to their stories. 25 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 2: And you were the oldest of four yes, yeah, oldest 26 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 2: four girls. So growing up in the first the Fort 27 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 2: Worth area and then the Houston area, what were the 28 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 2: expectations of the kind of prison supposed to grow up 29 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 2: to be? 30 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 3: I think the expectations were I'd be a cheerleader beyond 31 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 3: the drill team, you know, a very kind of Texas 32 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 3: view of the world, and I was not going in 33 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 3: that direction at all. I was very creative, wanted to 34 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 3: be a writer. You know, I always loved school, but 35 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:17,519 Speaker 3: I just rebelled by you know, wearing combat boots and 36 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:20,359 Speaker 3: all that kind of stuff. But I think the expectations were, 37 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 3: you get married, you have a family. And my parents 38 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:26,080 Speaker 3: knew pretty quickly that I was probably going to go 39 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:28,360 Speaker 3: in a different director, maybe even leave Texas, and they 40 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 3: they didn't discourage me from that. But I think in 41 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:34,080 Speaker 3: general it was more just like, you get married, you 42 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 3: have children. Women didn't necessarily work that much. Honestly. My 43 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 3: mom was a stay at home mom, so that was 44 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 3: kind of the world that I was brought up in, 45 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:45,919 Speaker 3: and I think I rebelled against a probably around junior high. 46 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 2: And you know, even though you adored your mom, you 47 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 2: also had that adolescent rebellion feeling was I don't want 48 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 2: to grow up and have your life. 49 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 3: At the time, yes, I very much saw my mom 50 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 3: as this woman who who had never really left Texas 51 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:05,000 Speaker 3: and who had kind of I viewed, I guess her 52 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:07,360 Speaker 3: life is small, and I feel terrible saying that, but 53 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 3: as a teenager I did. I just thought, I want 54 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 3: to go to Paris, I want to go to New York. 55 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 3: I want to, you know, have this big life. And 56 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:16,920 Speaker 3: I remember getting in a fight with her when I 57 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 3: was in high school and I said, you know, you're 58 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:23,360 Speaker 3: just a housewife. And I apologized for that probably literally 59 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:26,079 Speaker 3: until her dying day, and she would always laugh it off. 60 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 3: But I felt horrible. But at the time I meant 61 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 3: I was very much steering myself away from being like, 62 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 3: quote unquote just a housewife and living in the suburbs 63 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 3: like that seems horrible to me, so I definitely rebelled 64 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 3: against it. 65 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 2: Hovering Over Dina's childhood was a story, well not exactly 66 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 2: a story more like family law or a legend something 67 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 2: about a fire. Though the details were super hazy, it 68 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 2: was always there in the background, part of the music 69 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 2: of her life. As a teenager, some of the details 70 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 2: began to emerge. 71 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 3: At some point. I think in high school, I heard 72 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 3: the story of the fire and it just took shape 73 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 3: in my imagination. And I never asked about it. But 74 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 3: I had heard the story of a fire that happened 75 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 3: on my mom's side, and I knew a woman had 76 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 3: committed arson, but I didn't inquire any further. And also 77 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 3: at that time, when I was in high school, I 78 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 3: remember my mom telling me that my great ants on 79 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:32,159 Speaker 3: her side had traced our lineage and this is before 80 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:33,720 Speaker 3: twenty three and me, this is you know. So it 81 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:37,159 Speaker 3: was literally typewritten pages that she handed me, and I 82 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:40,160 Speaker 3: was so excited because I was sure in the pages, 83 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 3: I was like, you know what, there's going to be 84 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 3: some woman that like fought in the front lines with 85 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:46,840 Speaker 3: battle dressed as a man, or like marched for women's 86 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:49,279 Speaker 3: rights in the twenties, or I just was so sure 87 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 3: that as opposed to the housewife that I didn't want 88 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 3: to become, that there'd be some woman that I could 89 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 3: maybe like hinge my identity on. And so I got 90 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 3: the papers and there wasn't anything. There wasn't anything. It 91 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 3: was very basic stuff. 92 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 2: And this would have been in the. 93 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:05,799 Speaker 3: Nineties, yeah, early nineties. 94 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:09,839 Speaker 2: So those pages just sort of sat around for a 95 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:10,359 Speaker 2: long time. 96 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 3: It was a dead end, yes, and I actually still 97 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 3: have them. I somehow held on to them through all 98 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 3: moves all over the country, and but it was it 99 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:19,839 Speaker 3: was a dead end. And at that time, I don't 100 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 3: I think I was just looking for some kind of 101 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:24,160 Speaker 3: heroin and it just was you know, your family goes 102 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:25,839 Speaker 3: back to the Mayflower and you know that kind of stuff, 103 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 3: and so but I held on to them for whatever reason. 104 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:31,600 Speaker 2: What do you think that was about the feeling of 105 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:35,279 Speaker 2: you know, wanting, hoping, you know, needing for there to 106 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:39,359 Speaker 2: be a role model in a way sort of within 107 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:43,799 Speaker 2: your family tree, someone that would maybe help make sense 108 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:45,159 Speaker 2: to you of you. 109 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 3: I think a lot of it maybe was just that 110 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 3: I did feel very different where I grew up, because 111 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 3: when we moved to Euston, it was all about the 112 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 3: status quo, very homogeneous, like everyone has the same person everyone, 113 00:05:57,600 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 3: you know, it just felt like everyone had to follow 114 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 3: in this Why that just felt so wrong to me. 115 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 3: I couldn't even imagine doing that, and I and I 116 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 3: wanted to push against it, because I could very easily 117 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 3: fall into that right. And so I think it may 118 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 3: have been about like, if maybe if I can find 119 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:17,919 Speaker 3: someone you did something different, then it'll free me up 120 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 3: a little bit. Maybe it would help me understand myself. 121 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 3: And you know, my other sisters went in with cheerleading 122 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:24,280 Speaker 3: and did all that kind of stuff, and maybe it 123 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 3: would help me understand, like why was I the one 124 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:29,839 Speaker 3: that was like I want the arts and something bigger 125 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 3: and something wilder, And maybe it would have made me 126 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 3: understand myself in that way. 127 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:39,559 Speaker 2: It's so interesting the way that I think so often 128 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:44,160 Speaker 2: we feel the need to place ourselves within a narrative, 129 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 2: you know, as opposed to just doing sometimes what you 130 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,039 Speaker 2: know we have to do, which is just make the narrative, 131 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 2: forge the narrative, start the narrative. But just that feeling 132 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:57,360 Speaker 2: of sort of already being part of a story that 133 00:06:57,400 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 2: has begun before. 134 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:01,839 Speaker 3: Yeah, I wanted out of Texas, the South, so I 135 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 3: left for UCLA and I loved it, and I thought 136 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 3: I would never leave, and I certainly thought i'd never 137 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 3: come back to Texas. That was not even an faint idea. 138 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 3: So I went to school, I studied English, stayed in 139 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 3: California for many years. I had, you know, all kinds 140 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 3: of jobs that would hopefully get me to that writing 141 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 3: life that I always wanted and so waited tables, had 142 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 3: temp jobs, but always wrote. It was always kind of 143 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 3: part of what I was doing. And then I lived 144 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 3: in New York for a little bit, back to LA. 145 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 2: And all of those years when you moved around, you 146 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 2: moved across country, you kept with you those pages, the 147 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 2: you know, typewritten pages of family history, genealogy. They never 148 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 2: got lost. They were important enough to pull on to. 149 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 2: Did that story also sort of reside in you somewhere, 150 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 2: just as like this sense of this mystery that you 151 00:07:57,080 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 2: hadn't been able to solve it? Did? 152 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 3: I mean that story of the fire? I loved how 153 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 3: it was in my imagination, honestly, And I've asked myself 154 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 3: all the time, like why did I not ask my mom, 155 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 3: you know, I had plenty of time, or my grandmother? 156 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 3: Why did I not sit them down and say, okay, 157 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 3: what happened? Right? Because I knew that there was this 158 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 3: story of a fire. But I'm my only answer, I 159 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 3: guess is that I just I liked the way it 160 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 3: was in my mind, but I did. I carried that 161 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 3: with me for years, and every once in a while 162 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 3: I would kind of think about it and imagine. I 163 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 3: think when I was in college, actually I saw Terrence 164 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 3: Malick's film bad Lands, which in that film, there's this 165 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:38,959 Speaker 3: very cinematic, operatic fire scene, and it's you know, the 166 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 3: main character's father is horrible, so she burns down the house. 167 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 3: And somehow that scene in that movie, which I loved, 168 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:50,320 Speaker 3: became part of this family bore in my imagination. So 169 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 3: I told myself that it was my grandmother that did it, 170 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:56,679 Speaker 3: and she burned her childhood house down to save her 171 00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 3: and her sisters and her mother because my great grandfather 172 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 3: was an acol what she was, but I don't know 173 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:02,959 Speaker 3: if he was a bad guy. I just knew he 174 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 3: was an alcoholic. So I just created this thing of 175 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 3: it's kind of like bad Lands, and it's this big 176 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 3: operatic fire and my grandmother did it and no one 177 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 3: was hurt, but you know that she was the rebel. 178 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 3: And so I just kind of let it sit there 179 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:19,560 Speaker 3: in my mind for years, but I thought about it often, 180 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 3: and I thought about writing about it Auten, but I 181 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 3: never did. 182 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 2: When you saw bad Lands, did it fit together with 183 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 2: the vision of the fire that you had already been 184 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:33,080 Speaker 2: carrying around with you? Was it already sort of this 185 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 2: in your imagination in your inner life. Was it this 186 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 2: big operatic thing or did it sort of supplant that 187 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 2: in some way? 188 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 3: I think when I saw the film, that's what it became. 189 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 3: It just gave me a visual that I could cling onto. 190 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 3: And Terrence Malick is from Texas. Like there were, you know, 191 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:54,439 Speaker 3: sort of things that overlapped that felt like I could 192 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:57,319 Speaker 3: kind of hold onto it, and they just blended together 193 00:09:57,360 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 3: in my mind. But I do think the film probably 194 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 3: influenced what was going on in my head. 195 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 2: Eventually, Dina does find herself back in Texas. Her grandmother 196 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 2: passes away, followed by her great aunts and then her mother. 197 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:16,679 Speaker 2: It's during this period of grief and loss that Dina 198 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 2: feels a pull to return to Texas. The irony is 199 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 2: not lost on her. She has become the very thing 200 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:29,960 Speaker 2: she had judged and run away from a suburban Texas mom. 201 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 2: In taking on this role, Dina rethinks her own mother's 202 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 2: life also. She misses her terribly. 203 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 3: You know, my mom died in twenty eighteen, and that 204 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 3: really was, you know, the poll for me to come back, 205 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 3: and I really needed my roots. But I think losing 206 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 3: my mom, and I think most people that have lost 207 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 3: someone they deeply love, one of the things that's really 208 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:53,840 Speaker 3: hard for me is realizing that when you lose someone, 209 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:56,199 Speaker 3: then you lose their stories, right. You can't ask them 210 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 3: ever again, and that's just hard to live with. And 211 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:02,560 Speaker 3: I know I never asked my mom, I never asked 212 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 3: my grandmother about this story, and I just think to myself, 213 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 3: like why didn't I, Like, now, if they were here, 214 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 3: I would sit them down and just say tell me everything. 215 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 3: So I think losing my mom really pushed me to 216 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 3: look at this story closer and say, like, let me 217 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:19,319 Speaker 3: just figure this out because I can't ask her anymore 218 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 3: of that. The stories are gone. Like basically, I'm the 219 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 3: oldest female on that side now, I think, which is 220 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 3: a strange thing to realize, but they're all gone, that 221 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 3: whole line of women, And so I think that really 222 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:32,839 Speaker 3: kind of kicked me into gear to say, like, Okay, 223 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:36,559 Speaker 3: maybe I need to ask the question. Finally. You know, 224 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:39,560 Speaker 3: I asked my dad first, because he knew my mom 225 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 3: and her family since he was a teenager, so I 226 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 3: figured he'd be reliable. But his you know, his response was, 227 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:46,959 Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure it happened. And he was like, I 228 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 3: think it was your great aunt. I knows, but that's 229 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 3: kind of all I got from here. 230 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 2: We'll be right back. With few details from her father, 231 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 2: Dina starts to dig. She gets in touch with all 232 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:20,679 Speaker 2: sorts of family members, determined to get information about her 233 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 2: great aunt Ana's. In her excavation, she finds out about something, 234 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:31,319 Speaker 2: or rather someone she hadn't known existed. Aunt Anas had 235 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 2: a son, Steve. 236 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 3: Oh Man. Well, you know, first I'd ask my cousin, 237 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 3: and you know, nobody knew anything. My cousin didn't know anything, 238 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 3: my uncle didn't know anything. Some distant relative in Arkansas 239 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 3: that I called didn't know anything. And then when I 240 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 3: found out about Anas's son, and I thought, after all 241 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:52,679 Speaker 3: of these years and then all of this time digging, 242 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 3: I thought, oh my gosh, I'm gonna get his number 243 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 3: and when it makes sense to just call him immediately. 244 00:12:57,160 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 3: But I got the number and I just kind of 245 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 3: froze and I put it in my desk and it 246 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 3: took me about two weeks to make the call. I 247 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 3: was very nervous because I didn't know the guy, and 248 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 3: to call somebody up and say, hey, you know, did 249 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:14,079 Speaker 3: your mom commit Arsen? It's extremely awkward. And as a 250 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:16,080 Speaker 3: journalist I ask questions all the time, but with the 251 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 3: hard questions, I have to really get myself into that zone. 252 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 3: So I sat on it for about two weeks and 253 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 3: it was scary. I mean, my heart was racing that 254 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 3: he was so sweet and so gracious, but you know, 255 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 3: I said, I heard this story that your mom maybe 256 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:33,320 Speaker 3: committed arson. Did you know anything about that? And he 257 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 3: had no clue. And he told me that he didn't 258 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 3: even know that his mom had been married before his 259 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:41,679 Speaker 3: father until he was eighteen and they told him. So 260 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 3: that just shows you that even her being married before 261 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 3: was a secret. Yeah, a secret. And so you know, 262 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 3: I asked his permission. I said, are you okay if 263 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 3: I kind of dig further into this. It was a 264 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 3: scary thing to ask and kind of surprising that you 265 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:58,680 Speaker 3: wouldn't know about this huge thing in his mom's past. 266 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 3: So he did give me permission to kind of dig deeper, 267 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:02,959 Speaker 3: which I appreciated. 268 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 2: You know, I'm interested to in making the distinction between 269 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 2: like Yes, you're a journalist and you're used to asking 270 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 2: hard questions and you have to kind of gear yourself 271 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:15,680 Speaker 2: up to ask them in the line of work. But 272 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 2: I would imagine that it would have felt different to 273 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 2: be asking these questions when you're dealing with something that 274 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 2: is as personal as a family story. 275 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 3: Yes, it adds a whole other layer of For one thing, 276 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 3: I don't want to bring something up for this guy 277 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 3: that I don't even know, you know, this guy in 278 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:39,840 Speaker 3: North Texas who, yes, he's related to me, but you know, 279 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 3: it's I don't want to call him and then just 280 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 3: dig up things that maybe he doesn't want to think 281 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 3: about or what you know, doesn't want to have in 282 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 3: his life. I guess I had to feel like it 283 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 3: was worth it to even go there. And I think 284 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 3: that's when my dad, who had told me he thought 285 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 3: it was I know, is when I told my dad this, 286 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 3: he said, maybe you should just kind of leave this alone. 287 00:14:59,040 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 3: But I just couldn't. 288 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 2: I you know, I had his permission, and was your 289 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 2: dad's feeling let sleeping dogs lie kind of why stir 290 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:10,480 Speaker 2: up something that is ancient history kind of feeling? 291 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 3: I think it's that and then just be you know, 292 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 3: my dad's a pretty sensitive person, so I think he 293 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 3: was probably thinking of and as his son and just 294 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 3: you know, maybe, yeah, maybe you don't want to do 295 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 3: this to somebody that is not asking these questions, and 296 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 3: that that is the hard thing about finding out a 297 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 3: secret or being a journalist or you know, trying to 298 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 3: look into these stories as you almost have to think like, okay, 299 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 3: well is this my story to tell? And I did 300 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 3: grapple with that. When my dad said, you know, maybe 301 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 3: you should leave it alone, I thought, okay, is this 302 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 3: my story to tell? This is this other guy's mother. 303 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 3: It's not my mom. But I just felt like, you know, 304 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 3: these are the women in my family that eventually came 305 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 3: to the conclusion that it is it is my story 306 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 3: to tell. 307 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes a lot of That makes a lot 308 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 2: of sense to me. I mean, both the grappling with 309 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 2: it and the questions and it sort of fell on you. 310 00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 2: He just simply didn't know. But that didn't make the 311 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 2: story not a true story. It didn't erase the story. 312 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 3: Right. 313 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 2: Dina is at this point a working mom with a 314 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 2: young kid. She's living a rich and busy life in Austin. 315 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 2: Still she doesn't lose her drive to solve the mystery, 316 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 2: to close the chapter, to understand what happened the night 317 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 2: of the fire and in its aftermath. 318 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 3: The other thing that really pushed me is that I 319 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 3: pitched this to some editors at Mother Tongue magazine. I 320 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 3: had never met them, and we just had one of 321 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 3: those meet and greet kind of zooms, and they asked, 322 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 3: you know, the question, is there anything you've been burning 323 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 3: to write? So it was just the perfect. 324 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 2: Timing, interesting choice of words, too right. 325 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 3: Exactly, And you know, editors don't often ask that, so 326 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 3: it's a magical question to get as a writer. And 327 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 3: I hadn't prepared a pitch. I just started going off 328 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 3: about my great aunt and saying like, this is what's 329 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 3: going on. And I always thought about it, and I 330 00:16:57,880 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 3: don't know what the outcome is going to be. I 331 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 3: don't know if I'm gonna really find any true evidence, but 332 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 3: I need to go on a road trip. And they 333 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:05,400 Speaker 3: were like, go for it, and so then I sort 334 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:09,399 Speaker 3: of had. Then I had to do it, and you know, 335 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:12,639 Speaker 3: from that on it became extremely important. And I you know, 336 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 3: I've never really done investigative work before, so I mean 337 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 3: I had like a little bored with pictures up and 338 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:21,919 Speaker 3: things like that. So it became a huge part of 339 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:22,879 Speaker 3: my days for sure. 340 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 2: And you brought in a genealogist slash genealogical detective in 341 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 2: a way, right, I had. 342 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:35,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, So I had looked on you know, ancestry dot com, 343 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:38,200 Speaker 3: which you don't really find that much there. And I 344 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 3: talked to a lot of small town historians because I 345 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:43,440 Speaker 3: knew that I had lived in Fort Worth and then 346 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 3: also in which it's a falls, which is North Texas, 347 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:48,360 Speaker 3: and so I talked to small town historians up there 348 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:51,359 Speaker 3: who were very helpful as far as census records and 349 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 3: marriage records and things like that. So they were sending 350 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:57,200 Speaker 3: me those kinds of things. But I just we weren't 351 00:17:57,240 --> 00:17:59,680 Speaker 3: finding any a news story or anything about a fire, 352 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:03,119 Speaker 3: and so I was about to give up. And I 353 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:07,679 Speaker 3: remember there's this group called the Texas Genealogical Society. They 354 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 3: do a conference every year, and so I just thought, Okay, 355 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:13,119 Speaker 3: let me find somebody on their board who's in North Texas, 356 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:14,719 Speaker 3: and let me just give it one last shot. I mean, 357 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:16,640 Speaker 3: I was about to be write the article and say 358 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:19,400 Speaker 3: I didn't find out anything. But it was a great try, 359 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 3: you know, and that was going to not be a 360 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:23,719 Speaker 3: great article. So I emailed this woman in North Texas 361 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 3: and I just sent her everything I had. I said, 362 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:29,159 Speaker 3: here's marriagereckers, here's social security, here's an address that she 363 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:31,960 Speaker 3: lived in. And I sent it off one night, just thinking, okay, 364 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 3: this is this is kind of my last shot, right, 365 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 3: this is kind of my hail Mary. I don't know 366 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 3: what else to do. And then I woke up in 367 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 3: the morning to like six emails from this woman. The 368 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 3: subject lines were like found it, She's guilty, she did it. 369 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 3: I mean, it was crazy. And so I opened these 370 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 3: emails and it was news clippings that she had found 371 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:55,119 Speaker 3: from nineteen forty six with the most film noir kind 372 00:18:55,160 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 3: of headlines like Brunette burns out, Blondet rival bibles house. 373 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 3: So they were basically framing my great Anna as this 374 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:06,439 Speaker 3: like Brunette fe fatale, and there it was. It was crazy. 375 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 3: It was right in front of my I mean, I 376 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,159 Speaker 3: still get chill's thinking about it, that this thing that 377 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:15,160 Speaker 3: had lived in my mind for decades, it was right 378 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 3: in front of my face in the newspaper that she 379 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 3: had burned down a house. 380 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:24,119 Speaker 2: And until that moment, were you sure that it was true? 381 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 2: And Were you sure that it was her? Because my 382 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 2: sense is that there was some question in your mind 383 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:33,120 Speaker 2: from early on when you first heard word of this, 384 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:37,360 Speaker 2: the lore of this fire, of really just not even 385 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 2: being sure A that had happened, and B who said 386 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:42,639 Speaker 2: it if it did? So that moment, what was that like? 387 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:46,679 Speaker 3: I was not sure at all until that moment. I 388 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 3: thought it was one of those things, you know, because 389 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 3: sometimes we just create stories in our minds, you know, 390 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 3: I think whilst people do this where you have like 391 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 3: a memory and you're like, did that actually happens? I 392 00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:59,679 Speaker 3: make that up? And so I really didn't know. I 393 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 3: didn't know it was her. I didn't know if a 394 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 3: fire happened or if this was just some family legend 395 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 3: that somehow, you know, just endured over these years. So 396 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:10,400 Speaker 3: it really wasn't until that moment that I thought, Wow, 397 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 3: this actually is part of my family story and part 398 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 3: of my story. And you know, it was several clippings, 399 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,400 Speaker 3: and you know, the more I dug in it was 400 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 3: that there was so much more to it. I mean, 401 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:25,359 Speaker 3: that she had been married to this guy, they divorced, 402 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:28,400 Speaker 3: he was abusive, that she didn't just try to burn 403 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:31,439 Speaker 3: the house down once she went back three times that 404 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:33,879 Speaker 3: she was sent to the North Texas State Hospital. 405 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 2: When it is the first time that you actually saw her, 406 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:40,399 Speaker 2: like saw an image of her as part of the 407 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:43,159 Speaker 2: clippings and the lurid headlines. 408 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 3: Well that was interesting because the clippings that the genealogist 409 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:50,359 Speaker 3: sent me were just you know, headlines, and I didn't 410 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 3: see a picture until one of the historians, like that 411 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 3: same week, because we were all kind of emailing a 412 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:58,440 Speaker 3: lot during that week, and one of the historians email 413 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:00,119 Speaker 3: me and she's like, I'm sure you've seen this. I 414 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 3: found this on eBay and it was the actual crime 415 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 3: photo I think that you know on hebeo was for sale, 416 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:09,680 Speaker 3: like true crime photo. It was a black and white 417 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 3: photo of Inez in what looks like prison clothes and 418 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:16,719 Speaker 3: she's sitting there and she has a black eye and 419 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:19,879 Speaker 3: she's kind of smiling and it said, you know, I 420 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:22,680 Speaker 3: Na's Burger, which was her married name at that time, 421 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 3: arrested for arson. I mean, that was the first time 422 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 3: I saw her face and she looked like my grandmother 423 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,399 Speaker 3: was just crazy and my mother seeing her there, but 424 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 3: it's then with a black eye and with this almost 425 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:35,479 Speaker 3: like a little bit of a triumphant smile. It was 426 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 3: just it was unbelievable to see that. So I bought 427 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 3: it for like nineteen dollars on the spot. But that 428 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:43,680 Speaker 3: was the first time I saw an image of her 429 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:44,359 Speaker 3: at that time. 430 00:21:53,400 --> 00:22:09,720 Speaker 2: We'll be back in a moment with more family secrets. 431 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 2: Dina does what so many of us do when we're 432 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 2: trying to figure something out. She gets into her car 433 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 2: and drives. She heads out on a road trip to 434 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 2: Wichita Falls and Fort Worth to visit the North Texas 435 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 2: State Hospital where Ainez had been sent. The visit is 436 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:33,160 Speaker 2: powerful and illuminating. It's a very different place today than 437 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 2: it was back then. 438 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 3: So when she was there. I think it opened in 439 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 3: the twenties or thirties, And yes, it was created to 440 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:42,920 Speaker 3: be one of these places where they're like milking cows 441 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,439 Speaker 3: and making carrots. And that's not to say that it 442 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:48,200 Speaker 3: was a you know, idyllic place, because when I went there, 443 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,919 Speaker 3: in the lobby, they have the electric shock machines they 444 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 3: used in that era. They had you know all this. 445 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 3: I mean, they're showing the history of the place. So 446 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 3: it was meant to be, you know, let's rehabilitate these people. 447 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,399 Speaker 3: And I can only imagine what it was like for 448 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 3: her there. And I know that she was sent there 449 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:09,640 Speaker 3: because I don't know for sure, but in the newspaper 450 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 3: articles or the news articles, it would say that nine 451 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 3: people testified that she was not of sound mind, and 452 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:18,399 Speaker 3: one of them was with my great grandmother that said that. 453 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 3: And I imagine, and this is one of those things 454 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:22,679 Speaker 3: I'll just have to, you know, keep in my imagination, 455 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 3: but I would think that they said that so that 456 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 3: she would go to a state hospital instead of to jail. 457 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:31,399 Speaker 3: That's just my thinking of why they would do that. 458 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,200 Speaker 3: But so, yeah, she was sent there, and I don't 459 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:35,960 Speaker 3: know for how long is I can't get the records. 460 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,440 Speaker 3: But going up to this place, I mean, it's these 461 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,399 Speaker 3: old brick buildings. I mean half of them are condemned. 462 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 3: It's a pretty sad place. 463 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:48,399 Speaker 2: Well, and she was released on bail the first time 464 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 2: that she was sent there, right. 465 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 3: So this is where the story it's it's almost becomes 466 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:54,679 Speaker 3: like a dark comedy in a way, because I mean, 467 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,439 Speaker 3: no one died, so I could say. But so she 468 00:23:57,520 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 3: went to his house and I did go visit the 469 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 3: house or that the house that's you know on that 470 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 3: site now, So she went to the house and tried 471 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:06,160 Speaker 3: to burn it down the first time and it didn't work. 472 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 3: She went a second time and it didn't work, but 473 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:10,919 Speaker 3: she and she got arrested and she was released on 474 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:15,359 Speaker 3: bail after that second attempt, and supposedly, from what the 475 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 3: newspaper said, after the second attempt, she'd got in a cap, 476 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 3: went straight back at Birningtown like she was determined. She 477 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,480 Speaker 3: was not happy. And so after that third attempt is 478 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 3: when she was arrested and then send that's to the 479 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:27,400 Speaker 3: state hospital. 480 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 2: And so would it have been after the third attempt 481 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,199 Speaker 2: that she a photograph was taken of her with the 482 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:36,960 Speaker 2: black eye and the kind of small triumphant smile or 483 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 2: there's no way to really know that. 484 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:39,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, so it was after that third attempt when she 485 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 3: was officially arrested and then. 486 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 2: Put on trial, and the smile was she had done it. 487 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, that's the crazy thing. I mean, I 488 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,119 Speaker 3: still have that picture in my office. You know, I've 489 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:53,199 Speaker 3: stared at that picture a lot because it's such a 490 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 3: mysterious thing. But yes, I think you know her quotes. 491 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 3: I mean, if you've ever looked at nineteen forties newspapers, 492 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:04,200 Speaker 3: they're horrifying and hilarious. This just the way that they 493 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,520 Speaker 3: phrase things unbelievable. But some of her quotes were that, 494 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 3: you know, I don't regret it at all. My ex 495 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 3: husband beat me, and wouldn't you do the same thing? 496 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:16,359 Speaker 3: And I could only imagine that, yes, she she didn't 497 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 3: want to kill him. I actually have. I actually also 498 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 3: talked to some forensic psychologists and they say it's significant 499 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:24,879 Speaker 3: that every time she went nobody was there. Like, I 500 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 3: don't think she was trying to kill him. I think 501 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 3: she just, especially being a woman at that time, that 502 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:33,119 Speaker 3: was kind of all she had. I mean, you know, 503 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 3: they didn't have a lot of money. She's not like 504 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 3: she knew powerful people. Her only way to say, this 505 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:42,359 Speaker 3: guy is abusing me and I'm pissed is to turn 506 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,680 Speaker 3: his house down. And it's pretty sad when you read 507 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:49,159 Speaker 3: the papers, you know, the guy wasn't really made us 508 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,439 Speaker 3: to be a bad guy at all. Which it's not 509 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,200 Speaker 3: perfect now, but it's so different now that I don't 510 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 3: think he would just be painted as you know, some husband, 511 00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 3: that poor guy, I got his house burned down. But 512 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 3: at the time she was the bad which is crazy. 513 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 2: And nothing is made of the fact that she has 514 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 2: evidence of being hurt. 515 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:11,119 Speaker 3: No I mean, I think one article mentioned it, but 516 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 3: not even in a you know, it was just kind 517 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 3: of like, why not it's with the black eye said this. 518 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,639 Speaker 3: So that was another thing that really struck me, especially 519 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 3: seeing the photos and reading those quotes, is just women 520 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:27,200 Speaker 3: at that time, I mean, had very little recourse when 521 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 3: it came to that kind of abuse. And you know, 522 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 3: the other mystery that I'll just say that I may 523 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 3: never find out is they had been divorced and he 524 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 3: had been remarried, yet he was still abusing her. So 525 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,359 Speaker 3: like were they having an affair? You know, That's something 526 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:43,399 Speaker 3: that I don't know how I would ever find that answer. 527 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,439 Speaker 3: But that's another sort of part of the mystery, is well, 528 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,359 Speaker 3: why were they still well what was going on with 529 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 3: those two? And then the state hospital was I, you know, 530 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,920 Speaker 3: got a tour and I talked to the president at 531 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 3: the time, and he told me that women in that 532 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 3: era would be dropped off for much less than ourson. 533 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 3: And one of these one of the things he said 534 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:06,640 Speaker 3: to me was, you know, things like menopause, which it's 535 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:09,119 Speaker 3: just you know, husbands would just literally drop women off 536 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:10,160 Speaker 3: at the gates at this place. 537 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 2: Well like okay, dear, you know, spend, spend the next 538 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:15,679 Speaker 2: eighteen months here and I'll pick you up. 539 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:17,879 Speaker 3: Yeah, I can't take your mood. So, you know, just 540 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 3: go into this mental hospital place. 541 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:23,399 Speaker 2: There's no way of knowing how long she was there. 542 00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:28,360 Speaker 2: And I mean you do know that when she at 543 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 2: some point after she got out, she remarried and she 544 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 2: married Steve's father and they had a long, happy marriage 545 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 2: and they had you know this son. There's so much 546 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,880 Speaker 2: that is available to us now in terms of being 547 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:46,399 Speaker 2: able to ask institutions for records to understand, you know, 548 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,920 Speaker 2: what happened. Do the records exist or are they lost 549 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 2: to history? 550 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 3: Well, if they do exist, I mean that's the part 551 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 3: where I did hit a dead end. Is the story 552 00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 3: still stays. I mean I feel like there's more to tell, 553 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 3: the more to find out, like how long was she 554 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 3: there or what the records would say. And I reached 555 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,639 Speaker 3: back out to her son. Well, the first time I 556 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 3: reached back out is when I the articles came out, 557 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:11,920 Speaker 3: and I just said, I said, you know, I did 558 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,679 Speaker 3: find some things out. Do you want to read this? 559 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 3: And I sent it to him before publication and he 560 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,120 Speaker 3: said no, not right now. He said, when it comes out, 561 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 3: maybe you could send it to me on the side 562 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 3: of them, but it's like he just didn't want to know. 563 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:25,000 Speaker 3: And then when I did send it to him, he 564 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 3: did read it and he just said something like, you know, 565 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:29,880 Speaker 3: this is a different kind of read for me, and 566 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 3: he said he has very mixed emotions and I'm pulling 567 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:35,919 Speaker 3: at the email. He said, I will consider her a 568 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 3: person of courage, and he you know, I said, I 569 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 3: appreciate your writing and research. And then I reached out 570 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 3: to him pretty recently because I wanted to see if 571 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 3: I could talk to him farther and maybe because he's 572 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 3: the only person that could get the records released. And 573 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,160 Speaker 3: he just said out. He was very sweet and he 574 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 3: just said no, And from there, I can't really do 575 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 3: that because he's the only person that could unlock that. 576 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 2: There can really be a point in life where it's 577 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 2: too much, where the idea of re understanding or re 578 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 2: ordering or rethinking your history when there is nothing to 579 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 2: be done about it, there's no conversation to be had. 580 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 2: That kind of reckoning is just more than somebody wants to, 581 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 2: you know, it feels that they can bear It doesn't 582 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 2: if we go back to the idea of narrative, it 583 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 2: does not fit into the narrative of you know, this 584 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 2: was my life, this was my mother, this was my father, 585 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 2: this was our history. 586 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think he's probably in his seventies now, 587 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 3: and yeah, he probably just is like, you know what, 588 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 3: I don't need to go there. I don't need to 589 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:44,840 Speaker 3: unearth sayings. And you know, my motivations are very different. 590 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 3: I mean I'm thinking about you know, a lot of 591 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:51,880 Speaker 3: it is about women and what women have endored, and 592 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 3: you know, going back to even when I was in 593 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:57,200 Speaker 3: high school and searching for that kind of specifically female heroin. 594 00:29:57,440 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 3: I mean I didn't get those pages in high school 595 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 3: and think like where's the guy, Like where's the guy 596 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 3: that did something great? Like it? It was a one 597 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 3: had to be a woman. And so I think that, Yeah, 598 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 3: for him, he's living his life, he's working, he doesn't 599 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 3: need to know more. Whereas I'm sitting here going I 600 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 3: want to know everything. 601 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 2: Where does it end up sitting with you? And you know, 602 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 2: how does it end up feeling to you? I mean 603 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 2: you you made a piece of work out of it. 604 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 2: You know that exists in the world, but perhaps more important, 605 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 2: you were able to find that person, someone who didn't 606 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:38,720 Speaker 2: sit back and just contend with her lot in life. 607 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 2: And I mean even divorce was pretty unusual in those days. 608 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 2: Whatever the circumstances of their divorce was, she was definitely 609 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,840 Speaker 2: trying to get out of there. Yes, So what has 610 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 2: that done for you in terms of just a feeling 611 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:57,239 Speaker 2: that you were right all along? There was somebody in 612 00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 2: that family tree of yours, there was a woman who 613 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 2: walked a different path than the path of all of 614 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 2: the other women around her. 615 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 3: I think it's two things. It's the fact that, yes, 616 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 3: I am related to somebody, and I'm sure the people 617 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 3: on road that I don't even know about that I'm 618 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:19,000 Speaker 3: related to that did things like this. But a woman that, 619 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 3: you know, she didn't necessarily do the thing that I 620 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 3: was thinking about back in high school. Right, she didn't 621 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 3: challenge government or right in the war. She did something 622 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 3: very different than that, but extremely brave. And when I 623 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 3: went to the house, and you know, we were just 624 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 3: outside looking at it, I just thought, that's terrifying, actually 625 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 3: walking into someone's house three times with a match. It's 626 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 3: not a small thing to do. I mean, that's it's 627 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 3: a huge thing to do. So it's made me look 628 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 3: at all the women in my family. I think in 629 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 3: a different light, and you know, it kind of colors 630 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 3: everything my mom, my grandmother, and just realizing that it 631 00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 3: doesn't have to be some big thing that a person 632 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 3: does to make them credible or someone that can inspire you. 633 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 3: You know, even my mom the way she lived her life. 634 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 3: Every human has hard things to deal with, and you know, 635 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 3: my mom certainly did, my grandmother certainly did. And seeing 636 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,840 Speaker 3: those things as heroic. I think my great aunt has 637 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,479 Speaker 3: helped me understand that a little bit better. And just 638 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 3: I guess elevating all the women in my family in 639 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 3: a way is you know, just understanding that any moment 640 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,240 Speaker 3: in life can be hard. It doesn't have to be 641 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 3: grand if that makes sense. 642 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's beautiful. It totally makes sense. And you're the 643 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:36,760 Speaker 2: mother of a son, but you also have nieces. This 644 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 2: is something that you feel is part of the legacy 645 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 2: that you are able to pass on to that generation. 646 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 3: Yes, definitely my nieces and my son too. Like I mean, 647 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 3: you know, he's six now, I'm not gonna tell him yet, 648 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,520 Speaker 3: but eventually, yes, to tell him that, Like you had 649 00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 3: this person in your family who really stood up for 650 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 3: herself in extremely brave and bold way. Not that I'm 651 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,240 Speaker 3: condoning Arson, but for her to do that in the 652 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:06,320 Speaker 3: forties and say I don't regret it is a very 653 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 3: powerful thing. And one of the things that I keep 654 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 3: thinking since writing the piece and finding all this out, 655 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 3: is just I wish I could just sit her down 656 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 3: and say you're amazing, Like this didn't have to be 657 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 3: a secret. This shouldn't have been something that was shameful. 658 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 3: This shouldn't have been something that, you know, my grandmother 659 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 3: and her sisters and my great grandmother felt like they 660 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,920 Speaker 3: couldn't share that. It's really that I admire her and 661 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:29,920 Speaker 3: I still have. You know, I still have her photo 662 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:32,840 Speaker 3: in my office and I sometimes look at it and 663 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 3: just out loud or like you're a badass, Like I 664 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:37,480 Speaker 3: just wish she could have known that or felt that 665 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,160 Speaker 3: instead of feeling ashamed of it, which she obviously did 666 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:42,960 Speaker 3: because she didn't tell anybody. You know, I always do. 667 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,160 Speaker 3: You remember my mom saying that my grandmother we called 668 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 3: her Mamma. She would say, you know, Mamma and her 669 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:49,040 Speaker 3: sisters they had it hard, and you know they didn't 670 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:51,720 Speaker 3: It wasn't easy for them growing up, and she would say, 671 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 3: like they had to be pretty tough. So I think 672 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:56,600 Speaker 3: maybe that has something to do with how this all 673 00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:05,480 Speaker 3: turned out. 674 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:23,840 Speaker 2: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. Molly Zaccur is 675 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:27,040 Speaker 2: the story editor and Dylan Fagan is the executive producer. 676 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:30,280 Speaker 2: If you have a family secret you'd like to share, 677 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:33,120 Speaker 2: please leave us a voicemail and your story could appear 678 00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:36,560 Speaker 2: on an upcoming episode. Our number is one eight eight 679 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:40,760 Speaker 2: eight Secret zero. That's the number zero. You can also 680 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:45,680 Speaker 2: find me on Instagram at Danny Ryder. And if you'd 681 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 2: like to know more about the story that inspired this podcast, 682 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:50,480 Speaker 2: check out my memoir Inheritance. 683 00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:22,920 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 684 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,000 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.