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Speaker 1: Hey there are folks. It is Sunday, September the fourteenth,

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Speaker 1: and a love story forty years in the making. Congratulations

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Speaker 1: to Oliver and font The couple just got married recently,

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Speaker 1: but their love stories started forty years ago, and it

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Speaker 1: started with one of the biggest political scandals in US history.

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Speaker 1: Welcome everybody to this episode of Amy and TJ and Robes.

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Speaker 1: Do you I guess Watergate? But when you think biggest

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Speaker 1: political scandals of all time, where does your mind actually.

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Speaker 2: Go, Well, Watergate is definitely. Now that you've put that

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Speaker 2: in my head, it's got to be number one. And look,

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Speaker 2: a lot of this has to do with whoever's listening.

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Speaker 2: How old you are, Yes, but if you are of

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Speaker 2: a certain age, another scandal that will come immediately to you.

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Speaker 2: And if you if it didn't when I say it,

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Speaker 2: it'll be f familiar. The Iran Contra affair. And so

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Speaker 2: for me, that was when I was I think I

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Speaker 2: was still in single digits, but I remember it always

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Speaker 2: being on like we didn't have We didn't have twenty

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Speaker 2: four or seven television period and certainly not news agencies,

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Speaker 2: but this was something that was on constantly, and even

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Speaker 2: I remember the uproar and the constant coverage. Even as

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Speaker 2: a kid, I remember the Iran contra affair.

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Speaker 1: I for whatever, does it count? The Clarence Thomas I

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Speaker 1: remember that.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that was huge to Anita Hill, Clarence Thomas, that

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Speaker 2: was all in the same vein. Actually, I've just did

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Speaker 2: the math. I think I was more. I think I

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Speaker 2: was like ten eleven, twelve, like that age. But it's

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Speaker 2: you're impressionable enough. You don't know and remember all the specifics,

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Speaker 2: but you remember the players and you remember the general

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Speaker 2: concept of the controversy.

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Speaker 1: You know what that's throwing me now to your point,

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Speaker 1: just how impressional we are and how much these things

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Speaker 1: impact of Why am I? When I was a kid,

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Speaker 1: I remember watching Anita Hill.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so do I test?

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Speaker 1: I remember Clarence Thomas about a damn coke can.

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Speaker 2: But here's my question. So we didn't have obviously, we

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Speaker 2: didn't have iPhones, we didn't have mobile phones, we didn't

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Speaker 2: have computers, we didn't have email, we didn't have access

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Speaker 2: to information. So when you did, when something rose to

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Speaker 2: the level that it got your attention as a ten, eleven,

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Speaker 2: twelve year old, it had to be serious. Because now

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Speaker 2: our kids from TikTok and whatever you name it. They

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Speaker 2: know kind of everything that they have the basic idea

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Speaker 2: of what's going on. They're in tune. We were not

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Speaker 2: unless it got to a certain level, and these specific

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Speaker 2: controversies were few and far between. But when they were there,

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Speaker 2: you remember that you.

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Speaker 1: Know the other without a doubt. And some would maybe

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Speaker 1: even does some degree, put this larger than I don't

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Speaker 1: know about larger than Watergate, but Lewinsky scandal, Monica Lewinsky, Oh.

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Speaker 2: God, yeah, I mean I was already working at that point,

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Speaker 2: wasn't I or in college? At least I was in

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Speaker 2: college at that point, but one, yeah, I was. I

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Speaker 2: was college aged, but yes, yes, And obviously O. J.

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Speaker 2: Simpson like, there were just certain moments, certain trials, certain

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Speaker 2: scandals that rose to a level that no matter what

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Speaker 2: age you were, you knew of them.

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Speaker 1: So of all the political scandals we think of, if

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Speaker 1: you think of a love connection coming out of one,

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Speaker 1: it's hard to think no iran contra.

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Speaker 2: That usually does not happen. There are not usually love

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Speaker 2: connections formed in those moments.

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Speaker 1: This is the one, folks, A love story forty years

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Speaker 1: in the making, and yes, it all comes out of

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Speaker 1: the Iran Contra affair, if.

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Speaker 2: You'll remember, in the late eighties, this was the scandal

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Speaker 2: that erupted in the Reagan administration. So it was discovered

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Speaker 2: that the US was secretly selling weapons to Iran and

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Speaker 2: then using the proceeds from those illegal sales to fund

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Speaker 2: anti government rebels in Nicaragua. Oh my god, this is

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Speaker 2: all coming back to me right. There were daily televised,

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Speaker 2: high drama congressional hearings that were investigating what was actually happening.

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Speaker 2: And at the center of all of this, we all remembered.

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Speaker 2: He was handsome, he was dashing, he was in command.

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Speaker 2: His name, of course, was Marine Corp Lieutenant Oliver North,

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Speaker 2: or as he was called in my house, Ali North. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I will say, I remember my family. This might be

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Speaker 2: giving away a little bit, but they were big fans

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Speaker 2: of Olie North. They loved him. Yeah, so he was

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Speaker 2: like a national hero in my house, Ali North.

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Speaker 1: You remember why?

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Speaker 2: I don't know, but I just remember. So it's funny

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Speaker 2: I as a kid, when I think of Oli North,

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Speaker 2: regardless of what he was charged with and convicted of

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Speaker 2: and pardon, I thought he was a good guy. He

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Speaker 2: was a hero. Like That's my takeaway as a kid,

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Speaker 2: like just the feeling in my home.

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Speaker 1: This weird to thing, like what was that that that

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Speaker 1: shaped that narrative in some way.

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Speaker 2: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: He was doing his duty, right, he doing he was

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Speaker 1: following orders, he was still doing something in service of

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Speaker 1: the country. I'm sure a lot of people did see

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Speaker 1: it that way.

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Speaker 2: Other might not have. I was I was living at

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Speaker 2: that point. This was late eighties, so I guess at

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Speaker 2: that point, I maybe my family had just moved from

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Speaker 2: Missouri to Georgia, conservative areas, so it would make sense. Yes,

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Speaker 2: so Ali North was a National Security Council staffer. He

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Speaker 2: oversaw a lot of this covert and yes illegal program.

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Speaker 2: But when everything hit the fan, Ali famously shredded the documents.

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Speaker 2: We remember this, right, the shredder. This is when I

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Speaker 2: think I first learned about what a paper shredder was.

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Speaker 2: But he shredded the documents that were the evidence of

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Speaker 2: this covert program. And it was his secretary, the beautiful

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Speaker 2: oh see. And maybe this is also why I remembered

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Speaker 2: she was like a part time model, gorgeous fawn Hall.

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Speaker 2: She helped him as his secretary shred documents and then

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Speaker 2: even smuggle some of them out of the White House

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Speaker 2: into her clothing like that was all testified to and together. Definitely,

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Speaker 2: Oliver North and Fawn Hall were Yeah, they were the

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Speaker 2: two most famous and central figures of the Iran Contra scandal. Well,

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Speaker 2: guess what everyone forty years later a very secret and

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Speaker 2: kind of buried headline that I just happened to see

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Speaker 2: this week that sent me running to tj oh my god,

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Speaker 2: guess what. Oliver North and Fawn Hall have just gotten married.

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Speaker 1: Congratulations to them. Congratulations, this is you. I don't know

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Speaker 1: what the reaction is supposed to be short of anyone

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Speaker 1: who's making a decision that you want to get married.

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Speaker 1: I congratulate you to get to that point that there's

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Speaker 1: somebody you want to take that step with. Congratulations. They

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Speaker 1: have a history that makes this love story a significant

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Speaker 1: one and a fascinating one. And when I want to

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Speaker 1: hear so much more about it.

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Speaker 2: I would love to have a glass of wine and

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Speaker 2: pull up next to these two and say we want

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Speaker 2: to hear about your story everything. So I also want

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Speaker 2: to say this, I love someone. Look, I told you

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Speaker 2: I kind of grew up in a household that loved

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Speaker 2: Ollie North. I want to be that person who at

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Speaker 2: eighty one has so much zest for life and hope

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Speaker 2: for life and belief and love and partnership.

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Speaker 1: And believe in time.

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Speaker 2: Yes that I feel like it is worthwhile at eighty

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Speaker 2: one to get married again. I think that's pretty cool.

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Speaker 1: And a remind or say a reminder. Most people aren't

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Speaker 1: aware he was married fifty six years.

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Speaker 2: Fifty six years.

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Speaker 1: She just passed within the past.

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Speaker 2: She passed in no year, November of twenty twenty four

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Speaker 2: she passed, so just shy of a year. But yes,

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Speaker 2: so we know the official marriage date of Olie North

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Speaker 2: and Fawn Hall. It was August twenty seventh, and so

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Speaker 2: his wife who passed was in November, so that would

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Speaker 2: be what nine months after her passing, the two got married.

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Speaker 2: And the story as they tell it, how they met

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Speaker 2: or rekindled or I shouldn't say rekindled. That's not fair.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you're right, that's that's not fair.

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Speaker 2: They they were reintroduced to one another, they began dating.

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Speaker 2: They reconnected, that's the word I was looking for. Reconnected.

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Speaker 2: At the funeral of his wife. This is according to

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Speaker 2: a family friend who discussed their relationship, which had been

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Speaker 2: secret to all of us and to almost everyone.

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Speaker 1: And that's okay. I don't think there's scrutiny necessary. The

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Speaker 1: first thing I hear about this is I thought, can

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Speaker 1: I think it beautiful? Can I think you know what

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Speaker 1: I am always a fan of are unorthodox or just

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Speaker 1: non traditional love stories right, and non traditional stories of

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Speaker 1: marriage and the idea that an eighty one year old man,

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Speaker 1: no matter what, wants to and thinks there's value in

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Speaker 1: getting married. I don't know what their reasons were, if

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Speaker 1: it's purely love, if it's purely romantic, or of all

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Speaker 1: I know, it could be having to do with insurance.

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Speaker 2: I have no idea. The fact that these two have

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Speaker 2: history and the history that they have together, look and

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Speaker 2: there was I think that people might have raised eyebrows.

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Speaker 2: He was a very good looking, even older man at

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Speaker 2: that point. She was obviously a gorgeous woman. He even

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Speaker 2: acknowledged it during the testimony during the Iran Contra hearings.

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Speaker 2: I actually have a quote. The New York Times did

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Speaker 2: a story about their marriage and they even remarked that

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Speaker 2: during the testimony, Ali North said this, under oath, you

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Speaker 2: know that I've got a beautiful secretary, and the Good

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Speaker 2: Lord gave her the gift of beauty and the people

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Speaker 2: snicker that Ollie North might have been doing a little

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Speaker 2: hanky panky with his secretary. Ali North has been loyal

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Speaker 2: to his wife since the day he married her, and

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Speaker 2: he testified to that. He acknowledged he knew people were like, wow,

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Speaker 2: you guys work together, and she shredded all these documents

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Speaker 2: for you at the expense of her own potential legal freedom. Hmm.

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Speaker 2: It was never proven, but certainly there were there was talk.

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Speaker 1: And still she was and she was very you can

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Speaker 1: call her young and beautiful, but there was also something

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Speaker 1: what you say, dynamic about her parents. She had a

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Speaker 1: look to her that was almost unique, and she had

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Speaker 1: her big hair.

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Speaker 2: So she was living in the eighties. She was full

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Speaker 2: of okay, yeah, but she was a professional and to

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Speaker 2: that point, so he says and maintains that he was

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Speaker 2: loyal to his wife, his wife of fifty sixty years,

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Speaker 2: by the way, and mother of their four children. She

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Speaker 2: died in November, as we mentioned, at the age of eighty.

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Speaker 2: But we should mention that Vaughn Hall actually went on

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Speaker 2: to marry Danny Sugarman, who was a manager of the

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Speaker 2: rock band The Doors, and she had some introduction to

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Speaker 2: drugs and some issues and went through rehab and all

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Speaker 2: of that. But they stayed together until he passed away

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Speaker 2: in two thousand and five at the age of fifty.

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Speaker 2: She was just forty six, so she has been a

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Speaker 2: widow for twenty years. So she went on to get married.

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Speaker 2: He stayed married. His wife dies this past year, and

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Speaker 2: she's been a widow nearly for twenty years. The story

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Speaker 2: is that she came to the funeral of his wife.

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Speaker 2: She knew her obviously because she worked for her husband,

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Speaker 2: and that is where they reconnected. And for I don't

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Speaker 2: know this story. We no one knows the story of

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Speaker 2: their romance. But they were married pretty quickly. But at

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Speaker 2: a certain point, you understand that you don't have a

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Speaker 2: lot of time left, so you got to get busy living.

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Speaker 2: So there was no reason to wait. I mean, if

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Speaker 2: they realized they had a connection, if they realized they

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Speaker 2: had a partnership, if they realized that maybe they had

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Speaker 2: always had this foundation of something and now they were

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Speaker 2: actually able to explore it, good for them. That's amazing.

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Speaker 2: I kind of love this story.

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Speaker 1: I love this story too. There's nothing that I don't

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Speaker 1: feel like, there's anything I need, no just together or

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Speaker 1: raise an eyebrow or anything else. I'm fascinated how people

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Speaker 1: like that can can stay that kind of connected after

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Speaker 1: literal decades.

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Speaker 2: Forty years Okay, so was.

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Speaker 1: There something then? And I say something not a spark,

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Speaker 1: But it doesn't mean they acted on it. But I

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Speaker 1: wonder if someone that far gone in your life, if

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Speaker 1: there really was a forty year gap and then you

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Speaker 1: reconnect and you're married in nine.

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Speaker 2: Months, babe, I do Actually, that makes a lot of

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Speaker 2: sense to me. Wow, you and I had I don't

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Speaker 2: think neither one of us acknowledged it. We both weren't

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Speaker 2: in a position to even consider exploring it, and it

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Speaker 2: was never in my head. And we've talked about this

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Speaker 2: multiple times, but we had a spark. We had a connection,

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Speaker 2: and it wasn't necessarily romantic. It wasn't because we didn't

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Speaker 2: explore it, we didn't let ourselves go there. But there

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Speaker 2: was a connection. There was a spark, and anyone who

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Speaker 2: watched us on TV would say, Wow, they have great chemistry.

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Speaker 2: I think that can exist, and if the timing isn't right,

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Speaker 2: it isn't right, But it doesn't mean that spark or

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Speaker 2: that chemistry isn't still there in an undercurrent, and so

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Speaker 2: then I totally get it when the time is right,

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Speaker 2: when the path is cleared, whether it's through death, divorce, whatever,

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Speaker 2: and then you decide, hey, you know that thing I

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Speaker 2: think we both know exists, Let's see what happens. And

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Speaker 2: when you get to a certain age, what are you

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Speaker 2: waiting for? If you know? And you've lived a long

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Speaker 2: time perhaps thinking about what if, and now you get

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Speaker 2: the chance to say, let's figure it out. Let's find out.

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Speaker 2: That's pretty cool.

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Speaker 1: You put it in some context. That helped me understand

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Speaker 1: a little better. Okay, now I get it a little

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Speaker 1: better when you put it in those terms. Yeah, something

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Speaker 1: just being there. I am fascinated that that thing that

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Speaker 1: was there forty years ago could still be there, that

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Speaker 1: it can show itself once again. That I just I'm

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Speaker 1: so fascinated by these this non traditional paths of love

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Speaker 1: and marriage and what it looks like and what human

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Speaker 1: connection can look like. I am. I love love, I do.

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Speaker 1: I love this story for so many reasons. But it

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Speaker 1: doesn't seem everybody necessarily loves this story. In particular, perhaps

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Speaker 1: some in Oliver North's own family. Stay here, we'll tell

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Speaker 1: you what some of his family members are saying about

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Speaker 1: this marriage.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to this edition of Amy and TJ. And

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Speaker 2: we are talking about a forty year love story. And

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Speaker 2: there was I would imagine some level of love, respect, friendship, kinship,

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Speaker 2: something that was there that stayed there between Oliver North

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Speaker 2: and Fawn Hall. They worked together, they were grilled together,

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Speaker 2: they went through public scrutiny together, and then they went

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Speaker 2: on to live their own lives. She marries off, he

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Speaker 2: stays married, and he claims and says very as Duteley

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Speaker 2: testified to the fact that he remained loyal to his

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Speaker 2: wife of fifty six years until the day she died

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Speaker 2: in November of last year. But at her funeral, Oliver

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Speaker 2: North and Fawn Hall, the central figures in the Iran

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Speaker 2: contra affair, were brought back together, they say, and they

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Speaker 2: very quickly in nine months, him at the age of

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Speaker 2: eighty one, her at the age of sixty five sixty six.

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Speaker 2: I've seen two different reports tied the knot in a

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Speaker 2: secret ceremony August twenty seventh in the state of Virginia.

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Speaker 2: And I say secret because it was I don't even

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Speaker 2: know how some reporter dug up or found this marriage certificate,

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Speaker 2: but it we've seen the photo imagery and the evidence,

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Speaker 2: and they have not publicly commented on it. But some

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Speaker 2: reporters have done their job and they have managed to

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Speaker 2: at least get some sort of reaction from one of

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Speaker 2: Oliver North's children. And look, you know, this is a

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Speaker 2: touchy subject. They've lost their mom. He shared four children

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Speaker 2: with his wife of fifty six years. But his daughter

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Speaker 2: was asked about what she thought of the wedding. Her

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Speaker 2: name is Sarah Katz, and the New York Times did

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Speaker 2: this article and I thought this was really fascinating. But

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Speaker 2: Sarah Katz said that she and her three siblings were

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Speaker 2: not aware that their father was even in a relationship

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Speaker 2: with Fawn Hall. And look, I get it, Like we

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Speaker 2: get it. He understands why his children might not be

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Speaker 2: receptive to that and why a lot of people might

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Speaker 2: suddenly go aha, I knew it. They were always together,

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Speaker 2: So it was just probably at this point, this stage

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Speaker 2: in their lives and they've had enough publicity that they

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Speaker 2: were like, yeah, let's just we're at a point where

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Speaker 2: we can live for ourselves and not for anybody else.

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Speaker 2: But anyway, Sarah Katz, his daughter, said that they had

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Speaker 2: not seen Fawn Hall in decades until she did. Yes,

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Speaker 2: they have confirmed she attended their mother's funeral late last year.

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Speaker 2: And the quote from Sarah Katz is this, we were

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Speaker 2: not at the wedding because we didn't know it was happening.

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Speaker 2: And she said this this week to the New York Times.

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Speaker 2: She said, and mostly this was sweet, and mostly we

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Speaker 2: hope it won't impact our relationship with our dad because

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Speaker 2: we do love him and we're still in the process

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Speaker 2: of mourning our mother, which was a little bit Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it can be true, and it can still be cutting.

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Speaker 2: At the same time, it was it seemed as if

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Speaker 2: a little bit of a veiled poke it we're still

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Speaker 2: mourning our mom, Why aren't you that kind of a thing.

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Speaker 2: But that might be reading into that statement.

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Speaker 1: But that can be We'll go. That's tough. And I

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Speaker 1: was doing the numbers on the years forty years ago,

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Speaker 1: that would have put him at around forty forty one.

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Speaker 1: That would have put her at around what twenty.

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Speaker 2: Years younger than him? Like, give it, give her take

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Speaker 2: a few Yeah, right, Well is she like, wait, sixty

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Speaker 2: five and eighty one, I'm so bad with Matt. That's

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Speaker 2: sixteen years younger.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it would have put her twenty five and him

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Speaker 1: a forty one.

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Speaker 2: There you go. See, I'm gonna go with with your

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Speaker 2: your numbers.

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Speaker 1: Those are good.

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Speaker 2: Yes, So I mean, and that's a big age gap

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Speaker 2: at that point and now later in life, I do

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Speaker 2: think that's look I still think and I'm gonna choose

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Speaker 2: to take them at their word that they both might

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Speaker 2: have had feelings and maybe there was a spark and

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Speaker 2: maybe there was some even just a kinship, maybe just

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Speaker 2: a friendship, maybe just I like you, I've got your back,

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Speaker 2: and there was a trust between to and when the

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Speaker 2: right time reveals itself, they realized they had a connection

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Speaker 2: that they could explore, that they could take deeper.

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Speaker 1: But what happens at eighty one? Did you say it's

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Speaker 1: still worth it? I love that to do this, to

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Speaker 1: make this type of commitment, to make that statement at

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Speaker 1: eighty one.

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Speaker 2: It means that you still believe in love. It means

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Speaker 2: that you still value the years and the time you have.

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Speaker 2: No matter what your body looks like, no matter what

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Speaker 2: your body is capable of, your mind and your heart

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Speaker 2: are still beating and are still hungry for companionship and

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Speaker 2: camaraderie and affection. I think that's really cool. I actually

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Speaker 2: see this story, and I find hope in it that

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Speaker 2: it's never too late to find love, it's never too

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Speaker 2: late to give up to finding that special someone, and

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Speaker 2: sometimes there are really awesome second chances and next chapters,

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Speaker 2: and that can be just as beautiful as the first chapter.

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Speaker 1: Congrats to the news at eighty one Congress all of

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Speaker 1: the North, then Phone Hall and with that, folks, we

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Speaker 1: always appreciate you hanging with us. For my dear pride,

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Speaker 1: Amy Robot and T. J. Holmes was the ulcer m

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Speaker 1: m hm

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Speaker 2: Hm