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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt.

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Speaker 2: Our colleague Noel is on an adventure, but will return shortly.

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Speaker 3: They called me Ben. We're joined as always with our

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Speaker 3: super producer, Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you

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Speaker 3: are you. You are here. That makes this the stuff

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Speaker 3: they don't want you to know. Sh Can you hear

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Speaker 3: it in the distance? That train whistle? Oh?

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Speaker 2: I did hear I heard it?

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Speaker 3: I heard tell of it. Yes, tonight we are traveling

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Speaker 3: the rails fellow conspiracy real exploring a hidden history of

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Speaker 3: the United States, a culture that is often romanticized, vilified,

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Speaker 3: and above all, perhaps misunderstood. You know, when people hear

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Speaker 3: words like hobo or vacabond or traveler, dirty kid, hobo especially,

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Speaker 3: I think for most of the public in the West,

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Speaker 3: it conjures up this vision of itinerant men, you know,

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Speaker 3: maybe not with the best sharpest duds, but with dignity

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Speaker 3: in their faces, holding sticks and bindles amid the great depression,

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Speaker 3: which is again a terrible name.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, images of human beings looking for work. Right, that's

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Speaker 2: generally what it's associated.

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Speaker 3: With, which is the great differentiator between a hobo, a tramp,

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Speaker 3: and a bum. Right, And please keep in mind that

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Speaker 3: for people who historically consider themselves hoboes, calling someone a

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Speaker 3: bum was an enormous insult. The difference being hobo's travel

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Speaker 3: looking for work, Tramps travel doing their best to avoid work.

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Speaker 3: Bums neither travel nor work. And that's that's the idea

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Speaker 3: of it feels like it's distant history, but we have

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Speaker 3: to remember the past is always closer than it appears

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Speaker 3: in the rear view mirror. And the reality is that

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Speaker 3: train hoppers still exist. According to law enforcement, there's been

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Speaker 3: a conspiracy of foot So tonight we're going to dive

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Speaker 3: into this thing that we've been loosely calling Invisible America,

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Speaker 3: and we're going to ask what is this ft R

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Speaker 3: A the Freight Trained Writers of America. Is it, as

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Speaker 3: law enforcement says, a brutal coven of people committed to

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Speaker 3: organized crime? Is it, as its supporters argue, a loose

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Speaker 3: collection of communities trying to provide mutual support, Or is

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Speaker 3: it as some railroad spokespeople say an urban myth that

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Speaker 3: never existed at all. Here are the facts, Matt. How

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Speaker 3: would we define train hopping or freight hopping to someone

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Speaker 3: who's never heard of the concept.

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Speaker 2: We call it Hell's Angels, but without bikes. That's that's what.

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Speaker 3: That's from police magazine.

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Speaker 2: That's what Police magazine would say. Sorry, No, train hopping

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Speaker 2: is literally just somebody who is using the three the

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Speaker 2: thirty thousand miles of rail across the United States and

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Speaker 2: using it as a way to move around, but not

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Speaker 2: doing it as you know, a passenger on a train

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Speaker 2: would if let's say you get on a passenger car,

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Speaker 2: you pay for a ticket to that kind of thing.

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Speaker 2: It's hopping on and off of the actual freight cars

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Speaker 2: that are taking various things, you know, I think everything

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Speaker 2: from coal to large shipping containers.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, box cars, grainers, fa Lucky you might be able

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Speaker 3: to hop inside something nicer used by the employees of

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Speaker 3: the railroad. Yeah, it's called catching out. When you hitch

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Speaker 3: this ride, do it without permission from the train operators

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Speaker 3: or employees. This occurs all over the world. It is

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Speaker 3: illegal in every state in the United States currently, and

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Speaker 3: it's also dangerous legality aside for a ton of reasons.

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Speaker 3: There are accidents, drugs, crime, You can be at the

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Speaker 3: mercy of the weather depending on which car you end

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Speaker 3: up catching out on, and then there's the ever present

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Speaker 3: possibility of another rider becoming violent. Also, we got a

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Speaker 3: note first thank you for the seasoned train hoppers we

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Speaker 3: talk to in preparation for this episode. A lot of

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Speaker 3: the folks that we spoke with also that googles, folks

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Speaker 3: who are new to this lifestyle can be a danger

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Speaker 3: to themselves and others simply due to their lack of experience.

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Speaker 3: So no ill intent, it's just again very dangerous. You

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Speaker 3: have to know what you're doing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you learn how to do things by doing them right.

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Speaker 2: And if you're not with somebody who's essentially a guide

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Speaker 2: who can show you the ropes at any given moment,

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Speaker 2: you could be putting yourself and everybody else you're with

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Speaker 2: in pretty serious and in this case grave danger because

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Speaker 2: you're on a giant moving train or you're trying to

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Speaker 2: get onto one or off of one.

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Speaker 3: Right, and it's a thing that does not currently have

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Speaker 3: sensors that tell it, oh, someone's trying to jump on

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Speaker 3: this as it's moving and also, slowing down a train

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Speaker 3: is very difficult. It's doable. Stopping a train is an

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Speaker 3: engineering feat. With this in mind, we want to be clear, folks,

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Speaker 3: we are not expressly condoning this travel. And perhaps more importantly,

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Speaker 3: this is in no way to be taken as a

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Speaker 3: guide to learning the art of train hopping, and I

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Speaker 3: would argue it really is an art. There's a lot

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Speaker 3: of expertise going into this. You know, we talked about

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Speaker 3: this briefly on some other episodes, but there there's no

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Speaker 3: shortage of resources purporting to give you advice, warnings and

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Speaker 3: guides to train hopping, but they're often of dubious, unverifiable value.

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Speaker 3: And the one thing most travelers agree on is this,

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Speaker 3: you've got to learn person to person from someone else

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Speaker 3: who knows the ropes, or more appropriately, in this case,

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Speaker 3: the rails. So as you've become more familiar with hopping

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Speaker 3: and you become accepted into the culture and lifestyle surrounding it,

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Speaker 3: you might be gifted with one of the most legendary

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Speaker 3: books in all of US history, The Crew Change Guide.

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Speaker 3: Remember when we were talking about this.

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Speaker 2: One, Yeah, I remember this one specifically. What do you

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Speaker 2: think that means? The Crew Change guide. Hmmm, well, I

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Speaker 2: mean we can get it a lot of it, and

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Speaker 2: definitely if you haven't, go back and listen to our

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Speaker 2: episode on what was known as and is still known

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Speaker 2: as Hobo Code. We did an entire episode on it.

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Speaker 3: I think Ben right, we mentioned it in an episode.

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Speaker 3: I think we did it on a live show, and

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Speaker 3: we mentioned it in an episode about Hidden America where

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Speaker 3: we also talked a little bit about hidden buildings and

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Speaker 3: urban centers GOSD buildings.

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Speaker 2: So in this book, you're gonna learn a lot about

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Speaker 2: like again, literally the crew change, which is when people

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Speaker 2: check the trains, get on and off the trains, when

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Speaker 2: the crew actually changes who are engineering the train. There's

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Speaker 2: all kinds of cool information in there, and it's such

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Speaker 2: an interesting legendary book because it does seem like something

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Speaker 2: that would literally change year to year, even season to season,

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Speaker 2: even month to month, because you might have stuff that

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Speaker 2: gets altered when it comes to you know, who is

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Speaker 2: actually operating the trains, when and where and all that stuff.

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Speaker 2: But I guess theoretically keeping the trains on the tracks

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Speaker 2: really is a thing where you need to have regular

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Speaker 2: shipments of particular goods moving across, you know, from state

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Speaker 2: to state across regions of the United States on a

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Speaker 2: daily basis.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. As a result the Crew Change Guide, originating

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Speaker 3: with the legendary train Doc as he's known, The Crew

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Speaker 3: Change Guide provides the specifics of when a particular rail

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Speaker 3: line stops to change out their crew. Working for railroads

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Speaker 3: is very difficult. There's a high bar. It's probably terrible

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Speaker 3: for personal relationships if we're being honest, sort of like

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Speaker 3: working as an air traffic controller. And thank you to

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Speaker 3: our ananymous correspondent who reached out about that the crew

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Speaker 3: Change Guide cannot be purchased, cannot be posted online. You know,

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Speaker 3: it is meant to be given from person to person,

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Speaker 3: and as you said, it often gets updated. For more

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Speaker 3: information about the Crew Change Guide, check out our earlier

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Speaker 3: episode on whether or not any book should be banned

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Speaker 3: because this one's interesting. It's been partially self banned by

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Speaker 3: the community that creates it for their own protection. It's

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Speaker 3: fascinating stuff. We know. It is inarguable that the number

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Speaker 3: of active hoppers, or people traveling rail illicitly it has

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Speaker 3: greatly decreased over the decades, but make no mistake, there

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Speaker 3: are still strong communities of people traveling this way all

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Speaker 3: across the world, including the US, Mexico, and Canada South

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Speaker 3: America as well. So to understand the accusations about the

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Speaker 3: conspiracy surrounding the ftra we got to understand the history

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Speaker 3: of this hidden subculture. The concept of itinerant traveler searching

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Speaker 3: for work is ancient. As soon as the idea of

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Speaker 3: work started, that demographic existed. But the origins of modern

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Speaker 3: train hopping are directly tied to the expansion of railroads

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Speaker 3: and economic disasters, notably the Civil War in the mid

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Speaker 3: eighteen hundreds. That some people will argue, like our pal

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Speaker 3: Dave Russ's writing for How Stuff Works, that hobo originally

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Speaker 3: stood for hoe boys or guys who o cake. After

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Speaker 3: the Civil War, these disillusioned veterans were cast off from

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Speaker 3: larger society and they hopped the rails, maybe for ride home,

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Speaker 3: maybe for a new horizon, right to start life over.

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Speaker 3: And we're going to see how history rhymes later on

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Speaker 3: with this idea of disillusioned veterans. It's crazy, man, think

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Speaker 3: about it. How how can we articulate just how monumental

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Speaker 3: the railroad was. It's like up there with domesticating horses, right.

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Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, absolutely, If you imagine if you had to

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Speaker 2: literally hoof it to wherever you wanted to go, you

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Speaker 2: know in the United States, which is giant. And then

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Speaker 2: you've got a horse, now who can hoof it for

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Speaker 2: you at least part of the way or most of

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Speaker 2: the way. You just got to take stops to make

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Speaker 2: sure the horse is good. Now you've got a thing

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Speaker 2: that can take you hundreds thousands of miles and without

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Speaker 2: you having to run anywhere, without you having to, you know,

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Speaker 2: take care of another animal as it takes you somewhere.

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Speaker 2: You literally jump on a thing and then it takes

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Speaker 2: you thousands of miles.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. We know also that perhaps due to the sheer

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Speaker 3: significance of this innovation of the concept of rail trains

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Speaker 3: were not entirely or solely a good thing here in

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Speaker 3: the US. They came to represent a stark divide between

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Speaker 3: haves and have nots. You know, the railroad network expands

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Speaker 3: westward and becomes denser in the north and the east,

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Speaker 3: and there's a new class of workers who are created,

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Speaker 3: an entirely new class of workers employed in the transit industry.

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Speaker 3: And at the same time, a lot of people from

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Speaker 3: rural areas or people who have been delayed displaced by

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Speaker 3: things like you know, the dust bowl. They had a

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Speaker 3: way to migrate to cities in search of more opportunity.

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Speaker 3: Freight trains were an inexpensive way to travel, especially if

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Speaker 3: you could hop out or catch out and not get caught.

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Speaker 3: But on the other side, on the bad side of it,

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Speaker 3: railroads could ruin a town's economic future, right if the

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Speaker 3: railroad bypasses your town, then you received no new travelers.

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Speaker 3: They also, you know, use slavery to build the railroads,

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Speaker 3: and there was a ton of racism involving the exploitation

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Speaker 3: of migrant workers.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think my mind gets a little hung

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Speaker 2: up on this concept of everybody in a country who

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Speaker 2: doesn't have a job that is set up, you know,

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Speaker 2: that they imagine is going to be the job for

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Speaker 2: the rest of their life now has an opportunity to

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Speaker 2: go and travel and work, like literally be an internal

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Speaker 2: migrant worker that can go for two months, six months

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Speaker 2: a year, you know, travel two states away and work

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Speaker 2: a job that they know people are hiring for, make

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Speaker 2: some good money, bring it home, and then they could

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Speaker 2: go do it again if they need to, or not

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Speaker 2: even take it home because they don't have a home. Anymore.

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Speaker 2: They just make that their temporary home and then they

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Speaker 2: can move on to the next thing. You it's almost

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Speaker 2: it's it's almost like the lottery thing to me in

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Speaker 2: a little tiny way, where if I put myself in

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Speaker 2: that position, I can imagine myself thinking, Okay, I can

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Speaker 2: go make quite a bit of money here at this job.

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Speaker 2: Then I can go and make quite a bit of

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Speaker 2: money in another job, and maybe I'm going to strike

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Speaker 2: it big in one of these. Does that mean? Because

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Speaker 2: it's a brand new opportunity every time.

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Speaker 3: And for me, I see the both the desperation and

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Speaker 3: the appeal. Right, let's say you get word through the grapevine,

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Speaker 3: just like in grapes of wrath, that someone is hiring

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Speaker 3: a tremendous amount of workers out west, right, and you

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Speaker 3: are an okie. The dust bowl has wrecked not just

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Speaker 3: your prospects as a farmer, but the prospects of your

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Speaker 3: entire region. And so you tell yourself or you know

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Speaker 3: with certainty, this is your best chance, even if the

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Speaker 3: odds are against you. A lottery, as we were saying earlier,

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Speaker 3: you you don't have the money for a ticket, but

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Speaker 3: if you can get a solid job, then you can

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Speaker 3: change the course of your family's future. We also see

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Speaker 3: similar things with travelers who might go work in canning

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Speaker 3: in Alaska seasonally or travel to do cannabis harvesting right

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Speaker 3: and stay on the road. And that's a very common

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Speaker 3: thing in the earth, still common thing in the modern day.

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Speaker 3: It's not as common as it was during the Great Depression,

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Speaker 3: to be honest. Estimates tell us that during that horrible

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Speaker 3: time between nineteen twenty nine all the way up to

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Speaker 3: World War Two, really hobo ranks well to some four

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Speaker 3: million adults two hundred and fifty thousand teenagers amid them.

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Speaker 3: And of course this is a very dangerous time for

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Speaker 3: teenagers right, who can be victimized, exploited in any number

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Speaker 3: of ways. It just inspired, It left a tattoo on

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Speaker 3: the American consciousness and inspired so much fiction non fiction literature.

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Speaker 3: I was going back through my library and I was surprised, Matt,

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Speaker 3: I have more books about hobo history than I thought.

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Speaker 3: And don't know why.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I do not have those books, but

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Speaker 2: we do, as you said, we do have lots of

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Speaker 2: people in our circles who have done train hopping, who

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Speaker 2: have lived that lifestyle for a while, and it's interesting

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Speaker 2: to think about it way back then, right in these times,

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Speaker 2: and then think about it maybe in the past twenty years,

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Speaker 2: past thirty years, just how much it has changed, and

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Speaker 2: really thinking about motivations for wanting to live that lifestyle.

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Speaker 2: And I don't know about you, but just anecdotally from

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Speaker 2: people I've spoken with, a lot of it has to

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Speaker 2: do with this feeling of not the feeling of not

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Speaker 2: having a solid foundation where you are in your life,

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Speaker 2: where where you grow up, where you stand, especially for

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Speaker 2: young people, then finding a family through this. So it

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Speaker 2: reminds me of our discussions of gangs and cartels and that

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Speaker 2: kind of thing, which it's not the same, right, We're

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Speaker 2: not we're not equating these two things, but this sense

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Speaker 2: of finding a group of people that becomes your family,

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Speaker 2: that you would in this case then just travel to

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Speaker 2: rails with and explore the explore the United States.

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Speaker 3: And I'm gonna I think it's important for us to

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Speaker 3: have a positive note on this as we as we

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Speaker 3: enter the train tunnel here, this is a way, without

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Speaker 3: condoning it, we have to acknowledge this is a way

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Speaker 3: to see parts of the United States, in Canada and

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Speaker 3: Mexico that people never get to see. There is great

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Speaker 3: untamed beauty out there, you know, in that purple mountain

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Speaker 3: range and so on. So there is there is a

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Speaker 3: real appeal and community is a huge part of it.

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Speaker 3: And today, you know, you'll see widely different demographics. Right

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Speaker 3: are crust punk friends so called our dirty kid pals,

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Speaker 3: our anarchists who decided of their own volition that they

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Speaker 3: didn't want to participate in some of the frankly ridiculous

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Speaker 3: stuff that society demands of people in the current milieu.

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Speaker 3: But for all of those folks, whatever their motivation, it

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Speaker 3: is inescapable that train hopping is more difficult now than

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Speaker 3: it was in the past. There are security innovations at

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Speaker 3: train yards. You know, it's not now it's not always

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Speaker 3: just one day drunk train yard bull running around going

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Speaker 3: oh you can't have blah blah blah to the hooscal

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Speaker 3: you know. Now there are serious security innovations, and it

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Speaker 3: happens in step with growing federal concern national security concerns.

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Speaker 3: That these factors all put tighter eyes on the practice

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Speaker 3: of train hopping. Now, uh, his the demographic that we

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Speaker 3: we say this with great respect, that would historically be

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Speaker 3: considered hobos they're also sharing the rails with immigrant workers.

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Speaker 3: It's another it's another great off the grid transport option. Uh.

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Speaker 2: And they're and families, by the way, not not just

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Speaker 2: you know, imagic an immigrant worker. Imagine an entire family

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Speaker 2: of people.

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Speaker 3: Trying to keep their kids safe right in a place

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Speaker 3: where the law doesn't really exist. And then there are

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Speaker 3: the real seekers, you know, shout out to the college kids,

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Speaker 3: the eagles, and almost a terrorist, the tourists. To be clear,

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Speaker 3: my my slip there is because the federal government has

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Speaker 3: raised serious or what they call terrorism concerns.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 3: Part I mean there there's validity to it, but there's

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Speaker 3: also you know, the T word is a magic way

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Speaker 3: to get more funding. Uh yeah, well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but well and then there's there are real dangerous individuals.

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Speaker 2: Hear me when I say that, dangerous individuals who choose

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Speaker 2: the rails as a way to get around and then

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Speaker 2: may also commit heinous crimes while they're doing that.

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Speaker 3: And like anybody else, they have a community. To what

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Speaker 3: degree is their community united? That becomes a question worth asking.

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Speaker 3: There are criminals who have gone off the grid to

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Speaker 3: escape the law, and due to the circumstances up until recently,

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Speaker 3: those folks could ghost very effectively, and we're going to

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Speaker 3: talk about that as well. These folks, all these groups

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Speaker 3: we're mentioning, have different motivations, but they rely upon the

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Speaker 3: same tactics. You need a community to survive, and that's

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Speaker 3: why there are loads of groups or crews or gangs,

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Speaker 3: trained gangs on the rail and they are usually providing support, resources,

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Speaker 3: guidance to their members. People are looking out for each

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Speaker 3: other because they know they're bad things out there in

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Speaker 3: the dark. So if you ask law enforcement, and we're

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Speaker 3: going to have a dichotomy here between people in that

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Speaker 3: community and people in the l EO community, if you

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Speaker 3: ask law enforcement, they'll tell you some of these groups

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Speaker 3: are dangerous. One name that came up over and over

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Speaker 3: and over again is the FTR or Freight Train Riders

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Speaker 3: of America. Innocuous name, a little bit ambitious, but it

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Speaker 3: sounds clean. It sounds like a union. Actually when you

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Speaker 3: think about.

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Speaker 2: It, it really does. And have you seen some of

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Speaker 2: the patches that exist online.

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Speaker 3: The start the party.

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Speaker 2: Well y SDP, But there's also circular things that look

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Speaker 2: so much like a union that say Freight Train Riders

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Speaker 2: of America around the outside and that you know, and

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Speaker 2: it just you go, hmm, it feels like I'm on

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Speaker 2: a movie set, or right, you know, there's another union

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Speaker 2: hanging out over.

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Speaker 3: Here, or I'm at the VFA right checking out people's patches.

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Speaker 2: There you go.

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Speaker 3: So defenders will tell us this is just another group

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Speaker 3: of reil writers. You can find people who identify or

347
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:09,320
Speaker 3: associate with the FTR and they say, we have been mischaracterized.

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Speaker 3: We're a group that looks out for each other, and

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Speaker 3: a lot of people are making false claims about us.

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Speaker 3: A lot of people are associating us with crime. But critics,

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Speaker 3: including law enforcement, we'll talk about several of the law

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Speaker 3: enforcement investigators here. Critics will argue that FTR is an

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Speaker 3: extraordinarily dangerous organized criminal enterprise. So what's the truth. We're

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Speaker 3: going to pause for word from our sponsors, and then

355
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Speaker 3: we'll dive in. Here's where it gets crazy, all right, Matt, Yes,

356
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Speaker 3: the ft is a real thing. Yeah, there's a considerate

357
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Speaker 3: a real thing.

358
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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a Facebook page and everything.

359
00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:04,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, a gold standard starring step aside social security numbers.

360
00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:08,280
Speaker 3: And that's the real idea these days. I said real

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Speaker 3: id my cat yelled at me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Oh well, you can scan it now you.

363
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Speaker 3: Can scan everything. I don't know if it's the right

364
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,440
Speaker 3: world to live in, but anyway, the FTRA has been

365
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Speaker 3: most active, not solely active, but most active in the

366
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Speaker 3: northwest United States and in southwestern Canada. So that's why

367
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:35,040
Speaker 3: you may sometimes confusingly hear a similar Venn diagram term

368
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:39,679
Speaker 3: FTRC that means Freight train Riders of Canada. And it

369
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:44,160
Speaker 3: is so tough to find an origin story for FTRA

370
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:48,639
Speaker 3: that everyone agrees on, partially because it's tough to find

371
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 3: a description of the FTRA that everyone agrees on, and

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Speaker 3: even now or even in its heyday. Right as far

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Speaker 3: as reporting investigation goes, railroad spokesfolks were saying, this is

374
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Speaker 3: an urban legend. Police are trying to do something that

375
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:11,359
Speaker 3: makes their job easier. But I suggest we go to

376
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Speaker 3: Police magazine with an excellent article by Richard Valdemar that

377
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:19,480
Speaker 3: shares one of the most popular origin tales, and maybe

378
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:21,960
Speaker 3: while weld go through it, we can provide a little

379
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:23,119
Speaker 3: bit further context.

380
00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:26,119
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, would you mind if I read a short

381
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Speaker 2: little excerpt from that same article. I think it's the

382
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 2: same one November two thousand and seven, okay man, And

383
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,439
Speaker 2: this if you read the entire thing, which we highly

384
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Speaker 2: recommend you should. It's called The Freight Train Writers of America.

385
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Speaker 2: You can find it online. It feels like a hard

386
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,280
Speaker 2: boiled detective novel at times, and some of the stuff

387
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:49,439
Speaker 2: in here it has been You said, it's tough to

388
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,320
Speaker 2: know what's real and what are just stories being told

389
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 2: around various police departments and sheriff's offices. So this is

390
00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 2: what he says, and this is corroborated by some other people,

391
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,040
Speaker 2: but they do. I don't know if you found this too, Ben,

392
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:08,719
Speaker 2: They mentioned this specific article often when it's like mentioned

393
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 2: in Wikipedia or something, they'll cite this article, which is

394
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:17,120
Speaker 2: interesting because for all intensive purposes, this is one person

395
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:19,199
Speaker 2: who has experienced writing about it.

396
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 3: Right, I've also seen it. This is why I'm excited

397
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:27,680
Speaker 3: about doing some clarification and contextualization because I've also seen

398
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 3: this article mentioned by people who do not agree with it.

399
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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, one hundred percent. So that's that's why it's

400
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,200
Speaker 2: kind of h all right, Well, he says, the FTR

401
00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 2: is rooted right after the Vietnam War. There's a group

402
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 2: of disaffected veterans who come home. They don't want to

403
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:50,920
Speaker 2: live life the way everybody else wants them to. They

404
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 2: are in a specific bar in Montana. It's the nineteen eighties.

405
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 2: They are, I believe at the time, they're already unhoused,

406
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:03,960
Speaker 2: and they decide they are gonna basically just be a group.

407
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 2: They are gonna work for each other, with each other,

408
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:11,360
Speaker 2: and they're gonna it's a specific railway, right, or a line, Yeah.

409
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 3: The Burlington Northern Santa Fe Pacific Railroad line, the high line,

410
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:20,920
Speaker 3: that's right. And this let's pause here because Okay, it's

411
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:25,160
Speaker 3: the nineteen eighties when these guys meet. So they've all

412
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 3: served and survived through the Vietnam War, like so many

413
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 3: other veterans, they're having a tough time reintegrating into a

414
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 3: society that you could argue threw them away through a

415
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:43,880
Speaker 3: great many veterans away. And these are demographically most mostly

416
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 3: white males. We know that for sure. And like you

417
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 3: were saying, Matt, they according to the origin story, they

418
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,640
Speaker 3: throw their fates together and they say, let's work together

419
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:57,879
Speaker 3: to essentially improve quality of life for each other, to

420
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:02,360
Speaker 3: support each other, and we're going to share everything, and

421
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 3: we're going to keep it a family show. But they

422
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 3: do mean everything.

423
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, it gets pretty yeah, kind of gross. Talk about

424
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,360
Speaker 2: sharing women specifically and stated in that.

425
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 3: Article violating human rights similar to a one percenter motorcycle gang.

426
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,640
Speaker 3: I do want to shout out some internet scuttle butt

427
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 3: and some accounts that again we're going to keep anonymous

428
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 3: from different conversations, and we both have had. The idea is,

429
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 3: if you want to get specific about the origin of

430
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 3: the FTRA, you'll hear people say it started at this

431
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:41,640
Speaker 3: bar in Whitefish, Montana. But you'll hear other people say no,

432
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:46,920
Speaker 3: it's started in Libby, Montana. And you'll also hear that

433
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 3: the original guys were were not criminals. In fact, their

434
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 3: argument is that they were banding together to protect themselves

435
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:00,720
Speaker 3: against violence that environment.

436
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:05,880
Speaker 2: So let's let's remember our previous discussions of returning Vietnam

437
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:10,439
Speaker 2: War veterans and the varying degrees to which they were

438
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:15,120
Speaker 2: hailed as heroes and or shunned by other Americans who

439
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,120
Speaker 2: were on you know, us soil when they returned home,

440
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:21,159
Speaker 2: as well as you know, some of the good things

441
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:26,119
Speaker 2: that were in place by like the Veterans Affairs associations,

442
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,400
Speaker 2: as well as the really bad things that promises basically

443
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:33,360
Speaker 2: that were not kept, and just that experience, you can

444
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 2: imagine at least I imagine making an individual pretty angry,

445
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 2: or could has the potential to make someone pretty angry

446
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 2: and fear that they may not have any kind of future. Yeah,

447
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 2: and the.

448
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 3: We have to also remember the context of Montana at

449
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 3: the time. For years and years, decades and decades we

450
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 3: can say century plus, Montana had been a kind of

451
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 3: haven for what law enforcement would call transient individuals, right,

452
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 3: and again that's law enforcements word, not our own. You'll

453
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 3: often hear people in that community prefer the term traveler.

454
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 3: So the issue was that a few people, a few

455
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 3: bad apples, ruined the bushel for everybody. As a result,

456
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 3: legislation in Montana is passing laws that vastly exacerbate criminal

457
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 3: penalties for stuff such that you don't have to be

458
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 3: if you are an unhoused person, you don't have to

459
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 3: be caught red handed, you know, watching the wheels and

460
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 3: figuring out when to jump on the train. You can

461
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 3: just be sleeping nearby, and then they can put you

462
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 3: in jail for months and months and months, and they

463
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 3: know that you'll probably get acquitted because you didn't really

464
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 3: do anything wrong, but they will keep you in lock

465
00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 3: up for that time. Because what are you going to do.

466
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 3: You're gonna get a lawyer. No, you're not not a gomplin.

467
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:08,479
Speaker 2: Oh yeah. Well and just also quickly, the dangers of

468
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 2: let's say, sleeping in oh man. I think in this

469
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 2: article they were maybe it's in a different article they

470
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 2: refer to them as jungle camps. Yeah, the gibles, but

471
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 2: really just camps that are nearby to a real access point, right.

472
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 2: And but just the dangers of sleeping there that we've

473
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 2: we've seen over time. The police talk about it, the

474
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 2: people who have actually you know, traveled to talk about

475
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 2: how dangerous it can be because literally anybody could be

476
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 2: on that train right coming through, whether they're law enforcement

477
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 2: or not, whatever they are, and they and if their

478
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 2: intentions are bad, you are in an extremely vulnerable position.

479
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 3: One hundred percent. Yeah. The authorities, uh if you, if

480
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 3: you decide to go to them, may simply arrest you.

481
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 3: It may not help you. Right. And this is this

482
00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:00,240
Speaker 3: is an issue that occurred back then and occurs to day.

483
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 3: And I remember something that came up a lot when

484
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 3: I was doing some volunteer work in similar areas there.

485
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 3: The distrust of authorities comes from a very valid and

486
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 3: extremely smart place to be honest with you, it is

487
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 3: a rational and intelligent decision the FDRA, again according to

488
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 3: the scuttle, But here you'll hear that the original crew

489
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 3: did not They were not these super criminals. They weren't

490
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 3: teaming up to be like the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants.

491
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 3: But perhaps as a knock on consequence of the loose

492
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 3: nature of the organization or the covenant there, the FTRA

493
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 3: had a new wave of people coming in and these

494
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:54,720
Speaker 3: were more hard cases, These are ex convicts. They start

495
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:57,480
Speaker 3: calling themselves the new FTRA. And that's where we get

496
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 3: to the three divisions. Right by the skanks or the bandanas,

497
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 3: which would be the black bandanas, that's what we're talking about,

498
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 3: the high Line, the blue bandanas aka the wrecking Crew,

499
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 3: and then the red bandanas that are more Southern like

500
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 3: Louisiana to Long Beach.

501
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really it's really interesting to separate them out

502
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 2: by the southern corridor the Midwest, you know, like it's

503
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 2: interesting to split them up that way. We have heard

504
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 2: stories of people who have ridden the rails, not associated

505
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 2: at all with the FTRA, who state wearing the black

506
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 2: bandana is still a very popular thing in the areas

507
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 2: where the black bandanas are supposedly worn by the FTRA,

508
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 2: which is really interesting and it's a way to associate

509
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:49,600
Speaker 2: yourself with other people who ride the rails, but it

510
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 2: is not specifically gang related.

511
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, because again, confirmed members of the FTRA defined

512
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 3: as people who say their members and then get that

513
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 3: confirmed by other people who say their members. That's really

514
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 3: the best you can do on an order chart here,

515
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 3: because it's people connected by a similar lifestyle, and they're

516
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 3: so loosely organized that people do not always agree who

517
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 3: is actually in the FTRA. To that earlier point, it

518
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 3: is a known fact out there that some people will

519
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 3: falsely claim membership for protection purposes, or for intimidation, or

520
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 3: just for bragging rights, just to like sound cool at

521
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 3: the fire, which is not a smart move at all.

522
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 2: Or intimidating to someone that they are worried. Is attempting

523
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 2: to intimidate them, right, That kind of like little thing

524
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 2: that you would say, like watch out, Yeah.

525
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:52,479
Speaker 3: Dude, we live in Atlanta. You know, if you're not

526
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:54,719
Speaker 3: if you're not a crip, if you're not a blood,

527
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 3: then don't say you are. It is a really dumb idea.

528
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is an know. The really interesting thing that

529
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 2: I was having a discussion with somebody about earlier, this

530
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 2: official association with like those two well known gangs, right,

531
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:13,799
Speaker 2: there are smaller gangs that have associations and sets, right,

532
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:15,680
Speaker 2: But then there are other ones that are like claim

533
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:19,799
Speaker 2: association or might say their associated, or wear the same

534
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:21,520
Speaker 2: colors or do that kind of thing, and it's just

535
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 2: it feels like a very dangerous game.

536
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 3: First of all, my favorite light about that just tagitially

537
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:33,400
Speaker 3: related was from an old eminem song where he says

538
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 3: something like I'm walking through the hood wearing blue and red, Like,

539
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 3: I don't see what the big deal is. It happens,

540
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:46,839
Speaker 3: you know, it's cool. I've been in a lot of situations,

541
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 3: as you know, and probably one of the funniest, weirdest

542
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 3: ones when our office was in a different part of town.

543
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 3: I went into that local Target and I was accidentally

544
00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 3: wearing a red shirt and khakis yep, And then a

545
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:01,839
Speaker 3: customer yelled at me.

546
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:04,920
Speaker 2: Happens to me and best buy with blue all the time?

547
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:06,440
Speaker 2: Really still, yep?

548
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 3: Do you do it on purpose?

549
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 2: Now?

550
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:09,720
Speaker 3: Is it just like discordianism?

551
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 2: Blue? I'm just wearing blue all the time.

552
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:17,759
Speaker 3: You're wrapping it? So whatever, the true origin of the

553
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 3: FDR may be. We know that they expanded or things

554
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 3: calling themselves the FTR expanded not just in purported membership,

555
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 3: but in areas of operation to those you know that

556
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 3: rough three categories of regions, and their reputation expanded and

557
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 3: stepped more and more often. People were saying, these are

558
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 3: dangerous men. These are the kind of men you should

559
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:44,759
Speaker 3: never cross and in fact avoid them if you can.

560
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:49,799
Speaker 2: Yep, yep, that's what I've seen. I have also heard

561
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:54,759
Speaker 2: stories that that FTR members when it was a thing,

562
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 2: and we're not talking very long ago, you just avoid.

563
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 2: It's like, I don't know, it's kind of weird to me,

564
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:06,799
Speaker 2: and it's weird to make this association the way the

565
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 2: police describes them. We joked about it at the top,

566
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:13,360
Speaker 2: like a biker gang basically without bikes. But if you

567
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 2: just imagine seeing a group of people that look not

568
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,759
Speaker 2: that friendly, you just do whatever you can. Just I'm

569
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:24,600
Speaker 2: gonna stay away from them as much as I can.

570
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, never pick the fight, you know what

571
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 3: I mean, Just realize that sometimes the fight might pick you.

572
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:37,000
Speaker 3: And FTRA is full of pithy sayings or attributed to

573
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:40,319
Speaker 3: the group with things like what is it all on one,

574
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 3: one on all, meaning that if you have a problem

575
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:46,799
Speaker 3: with one guy and everybody is fighting and this is

576
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 3: going to be this gets sticky because there have been

577
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 3: revenge homicides between FTR members right for different slights, and

578
00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:00,239
Speaker 3: let's go to the crimes. Okay, So again this is

579
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:03,480
Speaker 3: coming to us from the lens of law enforcement, So

580
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:07,239
Speaker 3: there's definite narrative and perspective at play. One of the

581
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:12,080
Speaker 3: most prominent investigators you'll read about and concerning the FTR

582
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:17,840
Speaker 3: is a retired Spokane police officer named Bob Grandanetti. He

583
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 3: had a long career in the law, and after his

584
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 3: experience with rail related crimes and incidents, he specializes as

585
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:32,919
Speaker 3: a retiree in exploring the nature of this group and

586
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,920
Speaker 3: the alleged crimes. So in his work, he links a

587
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 3: large collection of criminal acts through the eighties, nineties, and

588
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 3: up to the two thousands, links them to FTR or

589
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 3: folks he believes are associated with FTR. And you know,

590
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:54,239
Speaker 3: some of these crimes honestly are a bit pedestrian. When

591
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 3: we're talking about living off the grid, things like food

592
00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:01,279
Speaker 3: stamp and benefit fraud, it's not that uncommon. But then oh,

593
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:03,720
Speaker 3: in theft of course, who doesn't love a good heist.

594
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 3: But then we're talking drug trade assaults, a little bit

595
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 3: of human trafficking, and of course homicide and the most

596
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:17,880
Speaker 3: concerning cases, the most extreme cases concern proven serial murderers.

597
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, there are actual human beings that were serial killers

598
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 2: that rode the rails as part of their crimes, as

599
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 2: part of their mo Does that mean they are FTR? Well,

600
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 2: let's find out, because there is one specific person that

601
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 2: kind of matches up with Grandinetti's findings in his police

602
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:44,440
Speaker 2: work as well as kind of the mythos of FTR.

603
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 2: Is this guy named Robert Joseph Silveria Junior. And he's

604
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 2: known by a bunch of other names as well, including

605
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:56,200
Speaker 2: the boxcar Killer. And we'll tell you about him right

606
00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:57,480
Speaker 2: after a word from our sponsor.

607
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:09,760
Speaker 3: We have returned. Also known as sidecar Sidetrack, boxcar Bob,

608
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:15,480
Speaker 3: boxcar Killer as the media dubbed him, this man is

609
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 3: currently serving double life sentences in Wyoming for crimes that

610
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 3: he does confirm he committed. He was convicted of these

611
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:30,759
Speaker 3: two murders in different states pretty far away. Before he

612
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 3: was convicted of these and incarcerated, he spent more than

613
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:39,080
Speaker 3: a decade and a half, riding the rails and apparently

614
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:43,600
Speaker 3: for his own reports, killing at will. By the time

615
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:48,279
Speaker 3: investigators wrapped stuff up, Silveria had confessed to twenty eight

616
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 3: total homicides scattered across the United States. Right, and he

617
00:39:54,400 --> 00:40:01,759
Speaker 3: also well from his argument he was killing the vulnerable

618
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:05,719
Speaker 3: younger people who was also killing older people who already

619
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 3: had government benefits. So the idea is that he was

620
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 3: killing for profit. But he the story still is murky.

621
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:18,719
Speaker 3: What he's saying does not one to one match up

622
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:22,399
Speaker 3: with the results of investigations or even with his own

623
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 3: earlier claims. He himself denied being a member of the

624
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:29,320
Speaker 3: ftr A, so he said he didn't do it, or

625
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:31,719
Speaker 3: he said I'm not in I'm not in this. I

626
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 3: was just riding the rails. But then other people who

627
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:36,480
Speaker 3: said that again we have to caveat it, who said

628
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 3: the ftr A members were like, oh yeah, boxcar Bob,

629
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:43,960
Speaker 3: that guy's a monster. We know him. We pull we

630
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 3: want to pull his patch because of his terrible behavior.

631
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:50,560
Speaker 3: Pulling the patch means expelling someone from that loose.

632
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:55,439
Speaker 2: Organization again, to that to that motorcycle club thing, right right,

633
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:58,080
Speaker 2: that's just the connections are there.

634
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 3: Do you think he was FTR.

635
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:04,759
Speaker 2: I I don't know, I haven't found enough on him.

636
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:08,440
Speaker 2: Just there's a lot written about him and specifically about

637
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:12,480
Speaker 2: you know, his crimes and specifics of you know, Roger

638
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 2: Lee Bowman and the human beings that the lives that

639
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 2: he took. But there's not a lot of details about him,

640
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 2: and you got to either trust him or trust the

641
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 2: people that are you know, picked up and talking about him.

642
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:26,960
Speaker 3: Right Like one book we read for this as Murder

643
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 3: on the Rails, The True Story of the Detective Unlock

644
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 3: the Shocking Secrets of the Box Car serial Killer. That's

645
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 3: by William Palmini, who has first hand experience in the investigation.

646
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:39,480
Speaker 3: So if you want to read more, that is a

647
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:41,600
Speaker 3: fantastic place to start.

648
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 2: Yep. Absolutely, and there are a couple of different ways

649
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:50,799
Speaker 2: that you could become a really well known criminal in

650
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:54,799
Speaker 2: the US. Nowadays, a true crime podcast might get made

651
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:59,520
Speaker 2: about you. Hey, now, you're we all coughed as we

652
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:05,279
Speaker 2: continue making true crime. Back in the day, there was

653
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:07,239
Speaker 2: this little show, while there still is this show and

654
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:09,799
Speaker 2: you can find Payne Lindsay r peal uh the show

655
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:14,680
Speaker 2: right now. Yeah, America's Most Wanted And if you went

656
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 2: on that show, well, you became well known.

657
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:22,359
Speaker 3: Right, and even if you didn't want to be on

658
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 3: the show, which is weird because a couple of people

659
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 3: who are on that show as suspects they did want

660
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:29,799
Speaker 3: to be on it. They got off on that thing

661
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 3: because you know, they're messed up. But the FTRA is

662
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:37,399
Speaker 3: an organization probably did not care for the shout out,

663
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:41,400
Speaker 3: but they gained national intention because they got that profile

664
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 3: on AMW and Silveria's brutal nature drove that. So his

665
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 3: heinous acts are how the larger public outside of Invisible

666
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:58,200
Speaker 3: America learned about, uh learned about this organization. And then

667
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:01,760
Speaker 3: we have to introduce a couple of other cases. Matt.

668
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 3: There's one that you and I both found. This is

669
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 3: disturbing and it's also heartbreaking because this guy was forced

670
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:12,240
Speaker 3: to ride rails when he was fourteen years old.

671
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, we're talking about Michael Elijah Adams, right, yeah,

672
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:24,200
Speaker 2: aka Dirty Mike. And this guy claims to have killed

673
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 2: more than sixteen people.

674
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah. And the interviews that he gives when he's

675
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:37,280
Speaker 3: in lock up are chilling because he says he killed

676
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:42,319
Speaker 3: more than sixteen other people less than thirty, and he

677
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:47,880
Speaker 3: does not have any regrets at all, he is different

678
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:53,399
Speaker 3: from Saveria because he proudly claims association with FTRA, and

679
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:56,320
Speaker 3: he further said he had been taught how to become

680
00:43:56,400 --> 00:44:00,239
Speaker 3: a serial murderer by a guy named John dogg Man.

681
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:07,120
Speaker 3: Tony Boris Bors himself was convicted of some crimes. Police

682
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:09,840
Speaker 3: believe he was an FTRA enforcer.

683
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:17,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, which is I mean, again, it's possible, and

684
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 2: how would we know? But I think maybe that's my

685
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:22,880
Speaker 2: big question, how would we know any of this is

686
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:26,320
Speaker 2: happening if there wasn't some kind of deep surveillance going

687
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:29,959
Speaker 2: on within some of these groups because they can move

688
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:34,400
Speaker 2: so quickly from crime scene to anywhere else, Right.

689
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:39,399
Speaker 3: There's one hundred percent infiltration. Yeah, it's that's another hidden industry, right.

690
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:47,719
Speaker 3: Maybe the stories about fictional characters going deep cover sound ludicrous,

691
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:51,920
Speaker 3: but it is a real industry with outlaw biker groups

692
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:55,600
Speaker 3: as well, with any any number of suspected games. You

693
00:44:55,600 --> 00:45:01,560
Speaker 3: could imagine when the FBI was going too hard on

694
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:07,239
Speaker 3: calling Juggalows criminal enterprise, they had juggalo infiltrators. Can you

695
00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:09,520
Speaker 3: imagine how much fun it would be to be the

696
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 3: juggalo infiltrator at the gathering? You don't have to pay

697
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 3: for the ticket. They put you in the helicopter.

698
00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 2: I bet yeah, but they're putting really nice people away.

699
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:20,799
Speaker 2: Probably you probably.

700
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:24,560
Speaker 3: You shouldn't do it. Yeah, just let them go, you know,

701
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:28,080
Speaker 3: like the cool bulls at the train yard who just say, guys,

702
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:31,960
Speaker 3: just go back on sleep in the jungle, don't do

703
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:36,720
Speaker 3: this on my shift, Which are real conversations that happen,

704
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:39,480
Speaker 3: you know, and a lot of the uh tell us

705
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:42,880
Speaker 3: if you work in the railroad industry, but at least

706
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:48,360
Speaker 3: without getting too specific, in a lot of urban areas,

707
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:54,640
Speaker 3: the rail employees who are not security kind of have

708
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 3: a uh don't ask, don't tell policy. If you're not

709
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:03,080
Speaker 3: making trouble, then I'm not making trouble, you know what

710
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:03,439
Speaker 3: I mean?

711
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, but they the FTRA allegedly was making trouble,

712
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:11,120
Speaker 2: at least according to reports back in the day, including

713
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:15,480
Speaker 2: pretty major thefts and why don't even know what you

714
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,640
Speaker 2: call that, like taking serious amounts of freight off of

715
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:22,960
Speaker 2: trains sometimes other times, like there were a couple instances

716
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 2: where a train was derailed and then an alleged FTRA

717
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:31,000
Speaker 2: member was like found dead in the wreckage and it

718
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:34,960
Speaker 2: caused the derailment like purposefully, but accidentally died in the crash.

719
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:37,600
Speaker 2: A couple other you know versions of that where a

720
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:41,480
Speaker 2: train is stopped purposefully, you know, at a specific place,

721
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:44,560
Speaker 2: breaking bad style. Well yeah, I mean it reminds you

722
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:49,839
Speaker 2: of the trains being robbed on horseback back in the West, right,

723
00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:52,520
Speaker 2: and those old tales, but just doing it in a

724
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:53,000
Speaker 2: new way.

725
00:46:53,480 --> 00:47:00,160
Speaker 3: And then the question becomes, are these unified organized acts

726
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 3: by a single group or a group of related communities

727
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:11,399
Speaker 3: or is law enforcement pinning these things together because it's

728
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:15,120
Speaker 3: more advantageous for investigation, you know, that's my big question.

729
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:18,239
Speaker 2: Might get some dollars pumped into the department.

730
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:25,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, and maybe some promotions a lot. Wait, let me

731
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:30,520
Speaker 3: get here real quick, so I brush my shoulders satirically,

732
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:33,799
Speaker 3: not seriously, folks. So that you're right, though, Matt. The

733
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:37,920
Speaker 3: headlines of this time period they get pretty shocking themselves.

734
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:43,239
Speaker 3: Ap The Seattle Times could again centered here in the Northwest.

735
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:49,000
Speaker 3: They feature stories with titles like racist Hobos, slave rail riders,

736
00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:54,040
Speaker 3: police tracks, gang of Elusive drifters, chase. Yeah, that's from

737
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:57,720
Speaker 3: the nineties, so that's more than heyday. The authorities say, look,

738
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:01,839
Speaker 3: FTR is real. We suspect this group has killed at

739
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:05,839
Speaker 3: least three hundred other folks riding the rails in the

740
00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:11,440
Speaker 3: past decade, and we think the group has two thousand members.

741
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:16,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah, Well it's striking fear, right. But then

742
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:20,440
Speaker 2: there are also real other serial killers out there that

743
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:26,960
Speaker 2: were fairly recent within history. We're talking nineteen nineties, sometimes

744
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:29,359
Speaker 2: in the two thousands. Back in the nineties, there's this guy,

745
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:31,839
Speaker 2: I think his I think he would say his name,

746
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:37,359
Speaker 2: Angel Maturino Rescindies. I don't know exactly how you would say.

747
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:40,280
Speaker 2: You can look him up. He's linked to at least

748
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:44,319
Speaker 2: fifteen murders, not of just people riding the rails, but

749
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:48,080
Speaker 2: of people who live near railroad tracks, people who were

750
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:51,000
Speaker 2: out near the tracks one night when he happened to

751
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:55,080
Speaker 2: be there, like a pastor and his wife while they're

752
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 2: sleeping at home. Right. So there are real individuals that

753
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 2: are terrifying, that make you feel and should make you

754
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:05,560
Speaker 2: feel the way that that title makes you feel. Right,

755
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:09,600
Speaker 2: But the groups of people that that title is trying

756
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:12,319
Speaker 2: to make you afraid of maybe are non existent in

757
00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:15,319
Speaker 2: that way, or at least operate in that way at

758
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:17,919
Speaker 2: one time, but don't exist now. But it's this, it's

759
00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:22,360
Speaker 2: to me, it feels like an attempt to make us,

760
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:25,960
Speaker 2: anyone who would read that fearful of the rails themselves

761
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:30,399
Speaker 2: and of any of any possible trip we might want

762
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:33,080
Speaker 2: to take. I don't know. What do you think, then?

763
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:35,440
Speaker 2: Is it a way to just keep people from trying

764
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:38,560
Speaker 2: to do this, from just riding the rails some of it?

765
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, it has to be. But I'd say I appreciate

766
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:47,600
Speaker 3: the point that this is simply a convenient circulatory system

767
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:51,360
Speaker 3: for people who want to do evil things. It was

768
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:57,360
Speaker 3: at the time, right, So for obviously law enforcement. I

769
00:49:57,360 --> 00:50:00,919
Speaker 3: don't think it's being purposely misleading. They're putting a little

770
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:04,040
Speaker 3: bit of English on the on the billiard ball, but

771
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:09,080
Speaker 3: they're doing that. They're doing that because they genuinely believe

772
00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 3: what they are saying, you know, and they're careful to say,

773
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:17,280
Speaker 3: we estimate this many deaths, we estimate this many members.

774
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:26,480
Speaker 3: But it's also it's challenged by an easy analogy exercise.

775
00:50:26,680 --> 00:50:30,560
Speaker 3: All right, there are three hundred and twenty three They're

776
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:35,040
Speaker 3: more than three hundred and twenty three US residents, now, right,

777
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:38,520
Speaker 3: that's a lot of people. So if one of those

778
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:43,480
Speaker 3: people travels somewhere else and does a bunch of evilshit,

779
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:47,520
Speaker 3: then does that mean that the President of the United

780
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:50,600
Speaker 3: States co signed it? Does that mean you know, if

781
00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:54,680
Speaker 3: there's if there's a guy from Atlanta who becomes a

782
00:50:54,719 --> 00:51:02,000
Speaker 3: famous like non consensual foot tickler, like he just busts

783
00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:05,000
Speaker 3: into hotel rooms and tickles people's feet because he's weird

784
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:05,759
Speaker 3: and disturbing.

785
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:07,640
Speaker 2: Hey, where we talked about a guy who did that

786
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:08,160
Speaker 2: very thing.

787
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:12,799
Speaker 3: Yes, I'm trying to find a non murder example that's

788
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:16,239
Speaker 3: still really creepy. But yeah, if you heard that guy

789
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:19,320
Speaker 3: is like from Atlanta, you would say you would typically

790
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:22,480
Speaker 3: say he's from Atlanta. But if you said he's associated

791
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:24,040
Speaker 3: with Atlanta.

792
00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:25,960
Speaker 2: He's an Atlantean. He's an at Alien.

793
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:29,120
Speaker 3: That makes all of us look really bad, you know

794
00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:32,120
Speaker 3: what I mean? So there is I think a logical

795
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:36,120
Speaker 3: gap there, and maybe that gap comes from desperation, dude,

796
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:40,520
Speaker 3: because the reason they say they're racist is at the

797
00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:43,520
Speaker 3: time or reporting, they were saying, we believe some of

798
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:46,600
Speaker 3: these homicides are for criminal gain, some are for revenge,

799
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:49,600
Speaker 3: and some are just racially motivated, because we think these

800
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:55,880
Speaker 3: guys are white supremacist. FDR self identifying members have later

801
00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:59,279
Speaker 3: denied this. Of course, no one's going out and saying yeah,

802
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:02,640
Speaker 3: you got me, cop. But we know and this is

803
00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:05,640
Speaker 3: something you and I specifically have dealt with in a

804
00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:09,160
Speaker 3: lot of investigations on other shows and in personal life.

805
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:14,720
Speaker 3: Police are facing tremendous issues when they're trying to figure

806
00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:18,080
Speaker 3: out what happened in these deaths, right, and maybe that

807
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:21,839
Speaker 3: is what drives some of these breathless headlines and some

808
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:26,160
Speaker 3: of these increasingly I'm not going to say exaggerated, but

809
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:29,799
Speaker 3: I am going to say ambitious claims right about size

810
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:33,640
Speaker 3: and level of sophistication or organization. I mean, trade hopping

811
00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:36,680
Speaker 3: is dangerous, even if you have deep experience in it.

812
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:41,560
Speaker 3: Folks can be injured. They die every year in the process.

813
00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:44,080
Speaker 3: This happens all around the US. And then when you

814
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:47,000
Speaker 3: find the body, depending on what happened, it can be

815
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:50,560
Speaker 3: very difficult to prove whether it was an accident or

816
00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:54,040
Speaker 3: foul play. Did that person fall asleep on the tracks?

817
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:57,720
Speaker 3: Did they pass out due to inebriation, did they get pushed?

818
00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:02,960
Speaker 2: You know, so really quick, two scenarios. Right, you're an investigator.

819
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:05,680
Speaker 2: You find a body. It's on the side of the

820
00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:10,440
Speaker 2: tracks with on an embankment. Right, this body has bruises

821
00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:14,920
Speaker 2: all over it and it's deceased and doesn't have anything

822
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:19,319
Speaker 2: of note on it, like no identifying information, there's no

823
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:21,960
Speaker 2: evidence around. It's just a body there, right. In the

824
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:26,480
Speaker 2: two scenarios one, it's you, right, and you just accidentally

825
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:29,160
Speaker 2: fell off the train when there's an embankment there and

826
00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 2: you fell down. All those bruises are due to you

827
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:33,480
Speaker 2: falling and all the debris and the stuff you hit.

828
00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:37,880
Speaker 2: Scenario two, you get brutally beaten to death on that

829
00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:40,520
Speaker 2: train and then you get thrown off that train by

830
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:42,880
Speaker 2: a group of people. The investigator is going to have

831
00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:45,040
Speaker 2: a really hard time proving which of those two scenarios

832
00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:49,480
Speaker 2: is true unless there's specific you know, DNA evidence left

833
00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:50,640
Speaker 2: behind by a killer.

834
00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:53,640
Speaker 3: Right, did they beat the brakes off of you? Or

835
00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 3: did you die do your own negligence or just do

836
00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:02,560
Speaker 3: to just an accident of active God if God exists,

837
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:04,799
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, And that's another point I want to

838
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:07,319
Speaker 3: go to. The second thing that I think is really

839
00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:10,719
Speaker 3: important that you're hitting on there is travelers in these

840
00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:15,200
Speaker 3: demographics often won't have idea or permanent address. You're hearing

841
00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:18,360
Speaker 3: us pass out nicknames or street names for some of

842
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:22,439
Speaker 3: the people we've mentioned. That's not just that's not meant

843
00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:25,440
Speaker 3: to be a cutesy, cool or edgy thing that helps

844
00:54:25,560 --> 00:54:29,200
Speaker 3: avoid investigators figuring stuff out.

845
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:29,680
Speaker 2: You know.

846
00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:35,080
Speaker 3: That's why that's why names like this proliferate. And well,

847
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:35,400
Speaker 3: and some.

848
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:38,080
Speaker 2: Of the people out there might be a child who

849
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:40,240
Speaker 2: is trying to get away from a really bad situation

850
00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:42,920
Speaker 2: at home, so they use a different name, so nobody

851
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:45,880
Speaker 2: that they talk to or meet can end up contacting

852
00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:48,719
Speaker 2: a parent or you know, an uncle or something that

853
00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:50,920
Speaker 2: would be bad news for that person.

854
00:54:51,239 --> 00:54:55,160
Speaker 3: Right, That's something that is tremendously important for us to

855
00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:57,840
Speaker 3: hit on because I know we have a lot of

856
00:54:57,880 --> 00:55:03,319
Speaker 3: fellow travelers in the audience tonight. Many don't fall for

857
00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:07,760
Speaker 3: broadbrush stereotypes saying, oh, here's a rich trust fund kid

858
00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:12,600
Speaker 3: who just wants to cause play a very difficult life.

859
00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:15,319
Speaker 3: A lot of people are coming from places where they

860
00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:18,640
Speaker 3: have no other recourse. They are driven to this existence,

861
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:22,600
Speaker 3: and it is tremendously important exercise, at least in my opinion,

862
00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:24,919
Speaker 3: to exercise empathy for that. And you may have met

863
00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:28,240
Speaker 3: these people, and you may not have known because it's

864
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:32,319
Speaker 3: their story, it's not ours. But we know back to

865
00:55:32,360 --> 00:55:37,320
Speaker 3: this idea about lacking a permanent address, lacking id, whether

866
00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:41,520
Speaker 3: through choice or through necessity. Some people can simply be

867
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:44,239
Speaker 3: to borrow the phrase the name of a band I

868
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:48,960
Speaker 3: love Railyard Ghost. They don't really exist on the grid,

869
00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:52,400
Speaker 3: so it can take weeks for maybe someone to happen

870
00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:56,120
Speaker 3: across a body, per your earlier two scenarios, and therefore

871
00:55:56,160 --> 00:55:59,839
Speaker 3: identification could be very difficult. When foul play is suspected

872
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:02,520
Speaker 3: were obvious, let's say, like a bunch of stab wounds

873
00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:07,839
Speaker 3: or a gunshot, this means the assailant because it took

874
00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:10,000
Speaker 3: so long to find the body, the assailant can already

875
00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:13,360
Speaker 3: be in the wind States and states away, you know,

876
00:56:13,719 --> 00:56:15,840
Speaker 3: and very difficult to find.

877
00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:21,560
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah. It really is important to

878
00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:26,320
Speaker 2: exercise empathy for every potential angle you could be coming

879
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:29,719
Speaker 2: the story from, right, because those investigators really are like

880
00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:33,600
Speaker 2: that person that we talked about at the very beginning

881
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:38,000
Speaker 2: in Police mag Richard Valdemar, when he's writing that story

882
00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:40,719
Speaker 2: and talking about all that stuff, he and everybody he's

883
00:56:40,719 --> 00:56:44,240
Speaker 2: working with are looking for someone who is serial killing

884
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:50,080
Speaker 2: homeless people in camps, and we're talking dozens of people,

885
00:56:50,120 --> 00:56:52,839
Speaker 2: not just a couple, and they are doing everything they

886
00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:54,920
Speaker 2: can to find out who that is and to stop

887
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:58,960
Speaker 2: that person, right, and then you imagine just that pursuit

888
00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:03,239
Speaker 2: could bring on all kinds of different things that we've

889
00:57:03,280 --> 00:57:05,400
Speaker 2: been discussing throughout this episode, right.

890
00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:09,080
Speaker 3: All well intentioned too. And this is the thing. Imagine

891
00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:15,520
Speaker 3: how damnably frustrating it must be if you're good police

892
00:57:15,719 --> 00:57:18,880
Speaker 3: and you're trying to solve a murder, right, or you're

893
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:20,840
Speaker 3: not even you don't know if it's murder. You're trying

894
00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:23,960
Speaker 3: to figure out what happened to this poor kid whose

895
00:57:23,960 --> 00:57:26,560
Speaker 3: body was found in the train yard, And then over

896
00:57:26,640 --> 00:57:30,400
Speaker 3: and over again, you get stonewalled by your own people

897
00:57:30,640 --> 00:57:35,560
Speaker 3: because no one cares. It's a homeless person. Don't have idea,

898
00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:38,240
Speaker 3: you know what I mean, This is not a high

899
00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:42,280
Speaker 3: value case. And that's also further, I would say, similar

900
00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:49,200
Speaker 3: to serial murderers who predate on vulnerable or fringe communities.

901
00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:52,720
Speaker 3: That's why those monsters get away for so long, right,

902
00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:58,040
Speaker 3: because they're they're killing black people in the time of segregation, right,

903
00:57:58,040 --> 00:58:01,160
Speaker 3: They're killing people in the Gate community, in the time

904
00:58:01,200 --> 00:58:06,000
Speaker 3: of rampant homophobia. This is a systemic problem. This, I mean,

905
00:58:06,040 --> 00:58:11,800
Speaker 3: that's another conspiracy. But right now, for FTRA, law enforcement

906
00:58:11,920 --> 00:58:15,919
Speaker 3: will predominantly from the DOJ on down. They will tell

907
00:58:15,960 --> 00:58:20,240
Speaker 3: you the FTR is this hidden network of organized crime

908
00:58:20,440 --> 00:58:25,080
Speaker 3: operating in and out of states, to quote Dennis Reynolds,

909
00:58:25,120 --> 00:58:28,920
Speaker 3: like a demon's whisper. Some rail companies will still tell

910
00:58:28,960 --> 00:58:31,720
Speaker 3: you it's an urban legend trying to link on related

911
00:58:31,720 --> 00:58:36,880
Speaker 3: crimes for you know, not super ethical motivations or as

912
00:58:36,960 --> 00:58:39,760
Speaker 3: members of the FTR a claim it's a decades plus

913
00:58:39,760 --> 00:58:43,800
Speaker 3: attempt at character assassination where mutual support group. We're not

914
00:58:43,960 --> 00:58:48,240
Speaker 3: wealthy people, Please stop tying us to these evil things.

915
00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:52,120
Speaker 3: But where's the group now, Matt? What about the rest

916
00:58:52,120 --> 00:58:54,320
Speaker 3: of the folks out there in the box scars, the

917
00:58:54,360 --> 00:58:55,400
Speaker 3: grainers and so on.

918
00:58:55,920 --> 00:58:59,160
Speaker 2: Well, okay, so what I've heard scuttle butt that I've

919
00:58:59,240 --> 00:59:03,560
Speaker 2: gotten a hold of is that the original FTR members

920
00:59:03,640 --> 00:59:06,919
Speaker 2: are you know, older now, like quite a bit.

921
00:59:06,840 --> 00:59:08,680
Speaker 3: Older than seventies. Easy.

922
00:59:09,080 --> 00:59:13,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, But there are other groups of people that are

923
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:17,480
Speaker 2: I don't know how you would stylize them just a

924
00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:20,520
Speaker 2: you know, small group of people. They'd be they would

925
00:59:20,560 --> 00:59:24,840
Speaker 2: be considered a gang, probably by a police organization, but

926
00:59:24,920 --> 00:59:28,240
Speaker 2: there are several out there that operate that. Again, people

927
00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:31,320
Speaker 2: tell me you just stay away from those people as

928
00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:32,120
Speaker 2: much as you can.

929
00:59:32,680 --> 00:59:35,080
Speaker 3: MM hmm. There are also rules to your point, Matt,

930
00:59:35,080 --> 00:59:41,240
Speaker 3: that can apply to many situations, even similarly seemingly dissimilar situations.

931
00:59:41,600 --> 00:59:45,600
Speaker 3: One of those is always, in a new environment, realize

932
00:59:45,640 --> 00:59:48,440
Speaker 3: that you do not know who you are speaking to.

933
00:59:49,200 --> 00:59:52,480
Speaker 3: That person you're speaking to may seem very very cool,

934
00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:56,760
Speaker 3: ma seem charismatic, may ask you to do stuff, but

935
00:59:56,840 --> 00:59:59,080
Speaker 3: you always need to keep your head on a swivel.

936
00:59:59,160 --> 01:00:02,640
Speaker 3: I don't want to encourage the slippery slope of paranoia.

937
01:00:03,400 --> 01:00:07,760
Speaker 3: But a new environment is not a familiar environment, and

938
01:00:07,960 --> 01:00:12,320
Speaker 3: people people's personas can change on a dime. You know,

939
01:00:12,600 --> 01:00:15,280
Speaker 3: it's something, It's something to be very cognizant about. You'll

940
01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:18,480
Speaker 3: see a lot of advice too, from people with experience

941
01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:23,480
Speaker 3: who would say, specifically in the jungle, don't try to

942
01:00:23,520 --> 01:00:26,600
Speaker 3: flirt with a lady you don't know because you don't

943
01:00:26,640 --> 01:00:28,240
Speaker 3: know who she's affiliated with.

944
01:00:28,440 --> 01:00:29,080
Speaker 2: You know what I mean?

945
01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:34,360
Speaker 3: Things that might seem disrespectful can have immediate and brutal consequences.

946
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:38,400
Speaker 2: It reminds me of Ki Lawrence aka Kai the hitch

947
01:00:38,480 --> 01:00:44,720
Speaker 2: Hiker aka Caleb mcgilvalryo, that dude back in the day

948
01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:47,919
Speaker 2: we talked about. There's a Netflix special on him. Guy

949
01:00:47,960 --> 01:00:54,960
Speaker 2: that nearly killed Jetsimmons McBride with a what a hatchet

950
01:00:55,000 --> 01:01:00,560
Speaker 2: I think, or acts or something that he had. It

951
01:01:00,680 --> 01:01:05,280
Speaker 2: was a very interesting thing, just how the complexity of

952
01:01:05,320 --> 01:01:06,720
Speaker 2: an individual.

953
01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:10,600
Speaker 3: Right right, And this is where we have to ask

954
01:01:10,600 --> 01:01:14,320
Speaker 3: about the future too. Right now the future looks grim

955
01:01:14,360 --> 01:01:20,040
Speaker 3: for the historic practice of ak hobo traveling train hopping

956
01:01:20,440 --> 01:01:26,160
Speaker 3: rates have massively dwindled. In twenty eleven, a Highline spokesperson

957
01:01:26,320 --> 01:01:30,240
Speaker 3: Gus Malonis said, Look, the FTR and overall traine hopping

958
01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:34,560
Speaker 3: culture have quote largely gone extinct end quote. But there

959
01:01:34,560 --> 01:01:38,000
Speaker 3: are people out there right now who disagree because some

960
01:01:38,080 --> 01:01:41,280
Speaker 3: of us may be listening to tonight's show on a train,

961
01:01:41,840 --> 01:01:42,560
Speaker 3: you know what I mean.

962
01:01:42,880 --> 01:01:46,280
Speaker 2: That would be so cool if you're doing that. Kudos,

963
01:01:46,920 --> 01:01:49,200
Speaker 2: But also we do not condone that behavior.

964
01:01:50,320 --> 01:01:53,600
Speaker 3: Yes, do you hear us? Hr We did the bit

965
01:01:53,760 --> 01:01:57,400
Speaker 3: at the beginning and at the end, so can't get

966
01:01:57,480 --> 01:02:00,880
Speaker 3: us anyway. We want to end by thanking everybody who

967
01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:06,360
Speaker 3: made this possible, tireless efforts of investigators, rail employees, travelers

968
01:02:06,360 --> 01:02:09,280
Speaker 3: who provided Matt and I with first hand accounts of

969
01:02:09,320 --> 01:02:12,080
Speaker 3: a world most of the public will simply never see.

970
01:02:12,120 --> 01:02:14,080
Speaker 3: And I think we also want to take a special

971
01:02:14,120 --> 01:02:17,840
Speaker 3: moment to thank travelers past and present that've reached out

972
01:02:17,840 --> 01:02:20,680
Speaker 3: to us in our little show over the years, as

973
01:02:20,680 --> 01:02:23,720
Speaker 3: well as providing your own insights on tonight's episode. Please

974
01:02:23,800 --> 01:02:26,840
Speaker 3: be safe out there. If you have related stories, we

975
01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:30,200
Speaker 3: want to hear them. We know anonymity can be mission

976
01:02:30,240 --> 01:02:34,640
Speaker 3: critical given the nature of this travel and given people's backgrounds,

977
01:02:34,840 --> 01:02:36,840
Speaker 3: so if you do decide to reach out to us,

978
01:02:37,120 --> 01:02:40,400
Speaker 3: we will do our best to keep your private infos safe. Anyway,

979
01:02:40,400 --> 01:02:42,480
Speaker 3: With that, come on over tell us the stuff they

980
01:02:42,480 --> 01:02:44,880
Speaker 3: don't want you to know. You can find us online,

981
01:02:45,000 --> 01:02:47,360
Speaker 3: You can call us on the phone. You can hit

982
01:02:47,440 --> 01:02:50,760
Speaker 3: us up on our good old fashioned email address. Over

983
01:02:50,880 --> 01:02:54,640
Speaker 3: on the rails of social media, we are conspiracy stuff,

984
01:02:54,680 --> 01:02:59,440
Speaker 3: conspiracy stuff show or some derivation thereof, and over on

985
01:02:59,480 --> 01:03:02,320
Speaker 3: your telephone keypad we have an address as well.

986
01:03:03,360 --> 01:03:08,640
Speaker 2: Yes, Style one eight three three stt WYTK. It's a

987
01:03:08,720 --> 01:03:12,280
Speaker 2: voicemail system. When you call in, give yourself a cool nickname,

988
01:03:12,680 --> 01:03:15,640
Speaker 2: one that nobody can identify you with, and then let

989
01:03:15,720 --> 01:03:17,480
Speaker 2: us know within the message if we can use that

990
01:03:17,640 --> 01:03:20,280
Speaker 2: name and your message on the air. If you'd rather

991
01:03:20,440 --> 01:03:22,960
Speaker 2: use your words in written form, why not instead send

992
01:03:23,040 --> 01:03:24,280
Speaker 2: us a good old fashioned email.

993
01:03:24,440 --> 01:03:27,800
Speaker 3: We are the entities that read each piece of correspondence

994
01:03:27,840 --> 01:03:30,840
Speaker 3: we received. Be well aware, yet out afraid. Sometimes the

995
01:03:30,960 --> 01:03:33,960
Speaker 3: void writes back. Always like to slip a little Easter

996
01:03:34,040 --> 01:03:37,640
Speaker 3: egg in here for our friends who listen to the end.

997
01:03:38,200 --> 01:03:41,200
Speaker 3: If you are interested in this episode you want to

998
01:03:41,280 --> 01:03:46,240
Speaker 3: learn more about subcultures that exist off the grid, please

999
01:03:46,280 --> 01:03:50,320
Speaker 3: please please check out our pal, Jake Hanrahan's newest endeavor,

1000
01:03:50,600 --> 01:03:54,840
Speaker 3: Away Days. It's available now on YouTube. We're friends with Jake.

1001
01:03:54,880 --> 01:03:58,440
Speaker 3: He's not paying us to say it. He's just great

1002
01:03:58,480 --> 01:04:01,360
Speaker 3: at what he does as a journal so check that out.

1003
01:04:01,400 --> 01:04:04,320
Speaker 3: Stay tuned for more announcements of that nature in the future.

1004
01:04:04,720 --> 01:04:08,200
Speaker 3: In the meantime, join us here in the Dark Conspiracy

1005
01:04:08,400 --> 01:04:28,640
Speaker 3: at iHeartRadio dot com.

1006
01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:30,880
Speaker 2: Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production

1007
01:04:30,960 --> 01:04:35,520
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1008
01:04:35,600 --> 01:04:38,800
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.