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Speaker 1: Also media, what enslaving my like ten million people over

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Speaker 1: the course of three hundred or so years, Welcome to

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Speaker 1: behind the Beast is then, Sophie, people have missed the

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Speaker 1: old kind of introduction where I'd like, what's xing my wis?

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Speaker 2: There's something inappropriate about how I did this intro.

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Speaker 3: It was very inappropriate. Also, I liked my intro where

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Speaker 3: I said, welcome to behind the Bostards. I'm not Robert Evans.

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Speaker 2: Yeah you didn't do a British accent last time, Sophie.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you joy for a second, but.

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Speaker 3: I was doing I was doing that not because of

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Speaker 3: our guests, but because of our topic.

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Speaker 2: Oh I thought you were doing that because of our guest. No,

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Speaker 2: I would sat stout, Sir James stout.

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Speaker 4: Sir James stout. There it is, Yeah, absolutely not. I

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Speaker 4: don't think that's happening anytime in the near future. And

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Speaker 4: anyone touched me with a sword period, I'd have back

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Speaker 4: at them if they tried.

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Speaker 3: H Well, Margaret told me the other day that I

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Speaker 3: would make a great queen.

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Speaker 4: When we find we did.

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Speaker 2: I was pretty drunk, I think, yeah.

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Speaker 4: I was drunk too, and we were using those crucifixes.

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Speaker 2: We were using crucifixes to face and island before this

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Speaker 2: is a podcast about the worst people in all of

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Speaker 2: his story.

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Speaker 3: Before we get to that, Robert, I want to take

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Speaker 3: a moment for our dear friend James Stout to plug

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Speaker 3: his new book that's available.

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Speaker 4: For pre order.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well he had to introduce him before we did that, Sophie.

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Speaker 3: We said his name, What else do you want?

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Speaker 2: I was going to put a little bit more like,

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Speaker 2: you know, the spin on it, some oil you know,

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Speaker 2: on the vinegar by by all means, go ahead, James Stout,

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Speaker 2: podcaster and.

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Speaker 6: Author and our friend.

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Speaker 2: And our buddy. Yeah, you want to tell people about.

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Speaker 4: Your book, I do. I would like that, And then

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Speaker 4: I'm excited to hear about Pedophile whatever we're going to do.

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Speaker 4: This is my book. It's called Against the State, a

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Speaker 4: story of anarchists and comrades at war in Spainjava. Includes

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Speaker 4: some I've been with Robert and places I've been on

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Speaker 4: my own. It's a beautiful cover. It's a really Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So a friend of Robert's and mine took this photograph

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Speaker 4: and I was really happy to be able to like

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Speaker 4: share it with people, and I really like having it

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Speaker 4: in This is Burmese Kurdish. This is English and Spanish

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Speaker 4: for those who aren't familiar with those languages. Yeah, it

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Speaker 4: comes out in the twenty sixth of January with ak Press.

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Speaker 4: We'll give you a pre order link if you'd like

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Speaker 4: to buy it, I hope in.

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Speaker 3: The episode description friends.

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Speaker 4: Yep, you can also just search my name and the

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Speaker 4: words against the State and you'll find it almost everywhere

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Speaker 4: good books are sold. You can buy it from Jeff Bezos

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Speaker 4: if you want, but I'd rather that you didn't. And yeah,

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Speaker 4: I hope I've captured some of the beautiful elements of

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Speaker 4: these revolutions that I've been lucky enough to spend some

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Speaker 4: time with, and obviously the Spanish revolutions. I think I

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Speaker 4: studied for my PhD. That didn't spend time in that one.

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Speaker 4: I'm not that old.

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Speaker 2: Buy the book, read the book, Overthrow the Government.

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Speaker 3: You know, nothing would make me happier than you pre

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Speaker 3: ordering James Stout's book.

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Speaker 2: One thing would make me happier, and it's the government.

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Speaker 2: The thing I said a little bit ago that I

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Speaker 2: probably should only say once.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah to me, clam my book is not a

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Speaker 4: guide to how to do that.

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Speaker 2: No, these are jokes, comedy bits, you know what's not funny, James.

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Speaker 4: I'm trying to think what you're about saying, La, it's not.

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Speaker 2: But today this is our This is our Christmas episode.

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Speaker 2: Every year around Christmas we do a reverse Bastards episode

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Speaker 2: right where I mean we've used that term also to

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Speaker 2: mean when someone else reads an episode to me, but

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Speaker 2: in this context it means we're talking about a hero, right,

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Speaker 2: We're or a group of heroes. Right. This is an

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Speaker 2: episode about a good thing that happened. Now, because it's

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Speaker 2: still behind the Bastards, we will largely be talking about

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Speaker 2: terrible things. But I did bring you an episode for

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Speaker 2: the end of the year because we both needed a

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Speaker 2: little bit of a break. James that this is going

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Speaker 2: to be a little bit of a play against type

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Speaker 2: because generally when we talk about the British Empire in

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Speaker 2: this series, we're not talking about good people doing good things.

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Speaker 4: But it didn't do much of that.

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Speaker 2: This isn't that this is not the British Empire doing

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Speaker 2: good things, but it's people who are citizens of the

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Speaker 2: British Empire who did something really, really good. We are

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Speaker 2: talking about some of the greatest heroes in English history

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Speaker 2: and world history. The heroes who ended the Atlantic slave trade.

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Speaker 2: That's that's our subject for this episode. Nice and we're

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Speaker 2: critically we're not quite getting into how slavery was ended

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Speaker 2: in the British Empire. Because the slave trade, the Atlantic

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Speaker 2: trade right where slave enslaved Africans were taken from Africa

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Speaker 2: over the West Indies the New World, and you know,

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Speaker 2: goods and stuff were taken to Africa to trade for

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Speaker 2: the slaves. Like that is the end of that is

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Speaker 2: what we're talking about, because the end of that is

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Speaker 2: what started and made inevitable the end of slavery in

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Speaker 2: the British Empire, and has also made the end of

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Speaker 2: slavery in the United States inevitable. The US abolitionist cause

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Speaker 2: is directly tied to the the quest first to end

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Speaker 2: the slave trade and then to end slavery in the

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Speaker 2: British Empire. And so the people we're talking about in

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Speaker 2: these episodes are I mean, some of the most impressive

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Speaker 2: human beings who ever lived, and they accomplished a really

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Speaker 2: incredible goal. And I think it's particularly important to talk

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Speaker 2: about now because this is a story of hope. It's

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Speaker 2: the story of how a ragtag group of intellectuals, lawyers

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Speaker 2: freed slaves, former slavers and other do gooders went up

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Speaker 2: against the most evil and powerful industry in the world

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Speaker 2: at the time and eventually brought it to its knees.

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Speaker 2: And it's a story of how real change actually happens,

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Speaker 2: which is unfortunately slower than we'd like it to be

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Speaker 2: and messier than we'd like it to be. But at

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Speaker 2: the same time, the stamina that was required to bring

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Speaker 2: this industry down right, the amount of time, the amount

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Speaker 2: of effort people had to put in consistently for decades

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Speaker 2: the same people in order to kill this industry is

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Speaker 2: really like worth celebrating.

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Speaker 4: It's a beautiful thing. I'm excited to learn more about it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and it's you get a lot of this

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Speaker 2: is like a Battle of Britain kind of thing, where

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Speaker 2: it's a lot of like just English society at its

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Speaker 2: very best. Like you have a lot of these people

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Speaker 2: who kind of like come up in like London or

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Speaker 2: come up in Liverpool and have these like personal awakenings

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Speaker 2: that lead them to embrace this as like a crusade

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Speaker 2: for decades. Like there's guys who devote like forty or

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Speaker 2: fifty years of their lives like incessantly to trying to

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Speaker 2: kill slavery, which I think is pretty cool. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's what we're talking about. Although episode one we're gonna

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Speaker 2: be laying a lot of groundwork, so it's still mostly

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Speaker 2: about bastards.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. I always have to like go for a nice

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Speaker 4: walk before before I do bastards, you know, like I

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Speaker 4: can't be reading the news and the mainlining this stuff.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well this is going to be largely upbeat, largely inspiring,

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Speaker 2: although again a lot of bleak stuff to get through first.

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Speaker 2: So I think everybody's aware that slavery is an institution

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Speaker 2: and an industry has existed on every continent, well I

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Speaker 2: probably except Antarctica, and in most societies across the vast

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Speaker 2: band of human's history history. Not every society had slavery,

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Speaker 2: but like it's the norm for societies in human history

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Speaker 2: to have some form of slavery, But all slavery is

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Speaker 2: not considered equal. Every kind of slavery and every way

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Speaker 2: slavery has been practiced is not an equivalent level of

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Speaker 2: horrifying and is not an equivalent level of abusive.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 2: Ancient Rome, for example, was a slave society and in

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Speaker 2: a lot of ways a nightmarish one, and some of

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Speaker 2: those methods of slavery practiced in Rome, like the vast

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Speaker 2: slave funded plantations called Latafundia or the slave driven Minds,

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Speaker 2: were as cruel as any slave plantations in the Caribbean. However,

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Speaker 2: Roman slavery was a legal condition, and no one believe

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Speaker 2: that slaves were like inherently racially inferior to other people.

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Speaker 2: They were inferior because their legal condition was inferior, right,

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Speaker 2: But if that changed when people were freed, there was

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Speaker 2: not really any stigma against a freed person in normal society, right,

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Speaker 2: And in fact, a lot of the wealthiest Romans during

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Speaker 2: the height of the Republic were freedmen, because freed people

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Speaker 2: like if you were lucky enough to be enslaved in

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Speaker 2: such a way that you were like living in a

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Speaker 2: city and being taught a trade, then you were effectively

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Speaker 2: like having a free apprenticeship. And if you could get

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Speaker 2: free fairly early in life, a lot of those guys

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Speaker 2: started businesses and became very wealthy. Some of the wealthiest

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Speaker 2: families in Roman society were descended from freed people, and

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Speaker 2: there was no ongoing legal stigma, right. There was no

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Speaker 2: attitude that, like, because you were enslaved, you can't breed

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Speaker 2: with other people or whatever. Right, that would have been

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Speaker 2: crazy to the Romans, you know. And likewise, and I'm

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Speaker 2: really not trying to minimize the horrors of slavery in

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Speaker 2: Rome because it was a slave empire. They did genocides

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Speaker 2: that evolved slavery, right, the Roman Empire a lot of

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Speaker 2: bad stuff, But for all of its horrors, nothing the

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Speaker 2: Romans did came close to the level of sadistic cruelty

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Speaker 2: that we saw in the slave ships of the Atlantic trade.

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Speaker 2: Like that is probably slavery at pretty much its worst

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Speaker 2: in anywhere in history. Like that, there's just nothing that

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Speaker 2: compared to that.

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Speaker 4: Right, It's kind of hard to think of what you

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Speaker 4: could do that's much was to a human being.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like, I mean, it's like an Auschwitz level

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Speaker 2: kind of torture right yere. People are being like starved

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Speaker 2: and murdered with their families and just the worst and

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Speaker 2: most sadistic conditions imaginable. Now, what became the Atlantic slave

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Speaker 2: trade was initially a product of the Spanish and Portuguese

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Speaker 2: colonial empires, right, Like, they were the first people who

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Speaker 2: really got this going. They got their shit together before

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Speaker 2: anyone else in Europe did. And then they lost having

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Speaker 2: their shit together before anyone else in Europe did. That's

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Speaker 2: the story of Portugal in Spaine. Europeans did not have

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Speaker 2: much in the way of meaningful contact with Sub Saharan

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Speaker 2: Africa until Portuguese tr trading vessels made their way down

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Speaker 2: the continent's west coast to Ghana in fourteen seventy one,

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Speaker 2: and keeping with their well worn traditions, Portugal was at

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Speaker 2: first just interested in getting access to gold. Right, there's

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Speaker 2: the gold coast, there's gold here, That's why we're in

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Speaker 2: the area. And so they started building forts on like

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Speaker 2: the coast of Ghana mainly, and other facilities like you know,

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Speaker 2: to facilitate the mining and the transfer of gold, right,

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Speaker 2: and the loading it onto ships and the restocking those ships.

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Speaker 2: This was part of like these are basically these forts

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Speaker 2: or castles were kind of like gas stations for the

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Speaker 2: gold trade, right, and they're going to turn into like

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Speaker 2: gas stations for the slave trade per the terms of

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Speaker 2: the Treaty of Tortosilla.

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Speaker 4: That's right, right, James told the Sis I think to Tordesius.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, signed in fourteen ninety four, Africa wound up in

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Speaker 2: Portugal's sphere of influence that was the Vatican being like,

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Speaker 2: all right, Spain and Portugal, you're clearly going to run

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Speaker 2: things forever. Let's split the world between you. Never will

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Speaker 2: both of your empires collapse really fast.

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Speaker 4: Actually, CNNY, Iberia will be the center of the world forever, right, Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 4: obviously their destined to get to rule the world for

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Speaker 4: a thousand years.

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Speaker 2: They got boats slightly faster than anyone else.

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Speaker 4: What else could they need?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so Tomaso's earliest Yeah, that would have been handy.

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Speaker 2: Their earliest explorations in the region were again focused on gold,

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Speaker 2: and Africa's first major slave trading facility, which was a

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Speaker 2: fort or castle called Elmina, started as a place to

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Speaker 2: gather and store gold before it could be offloaded into

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Speaker 2: merchant vessels. It was built in fourteen eighty two. But

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Speaker 2: right around this time, not long after they build this

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Speaker 2: fort for gold, Portugal starts to realize gold's not the

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Speaker 2: only treasure in the tropics, and it's actually maybe not

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Speaker 2: even the most valuable treasure in the tropics, because sugar exists.

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Speaker 2: And it turns out once you start making actual straight

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Speaker 2: up like granulated sugar, and people can just buy a

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Speaker 2: bag of sugar, they don't want to, like, they never

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Speaker 2: want to have to not have sugar, Like they're addicted.

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Speaker 2: It's a drug. It's an incredibly addictive drug. They called

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Speaker 2: it sweet salt initially, and once they realize like, oh shit,

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Speaker 2: this stuff grows really well here and you can grow

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Speaker 2: as much of it as you want that really like,

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Speaker 2: it becomes very like that's worth more than gold potentially,

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Speaker 2: you know, there's only so much gold. Inflation is a thing,

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Speaker 2: but you can selve sugar forever. People never don't want sugar.

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Speaker 2: The only problem with sugar as a money making enterprise

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Speaker 2: is that it sucks ass to farm, right, It is

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Speaker 2: absolute hell to grow the nightmare.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's where you don't see many people

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Speaker 4: growing backyard sugar exactly.

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Speaker 2: Nobody. None of the people with like homesteading dreams are like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I just want a couple of acres that I can

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Speaker 2: just grow nothing but sugar cane on, you know, really

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Speaker 2: work myself to death probably in five or ten years.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a shame or whatever. Some of the homesteading

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Speaker 4: YouTubers I would like to see. I would like, stop,

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Speaker 4: I just got to farm sugar. Yeah yeah, yeah, getting

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Speaker 4: the sugar trade. That's what I will say.

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Speaker 2: I mean, there's got to be one of those, one

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Speaker 2: of those like evil foster parents who adopts a bunch

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Speaker 2: of kids to make them work their farm. Like there's

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Speaker 2: there's got to be someone who's tried it with a

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Speaker 2: sugar plantation. Sure, but yeah, so there's a problem with

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Speaker 2: the sugar trade, which is they can tell all this

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Speaker 2: money is just lying around waiting for them to grab

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Speaker 2: the sugar trade. They know we'll be worth a shitload

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Speaker 2: of money. Everyone wants this stuff, but it only grows

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Speaker 2: in the tropics, right, it does not. You can't transplant

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Speaker 2: it back to Europe or wherever where you have established

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Speaker 2: agricultural infrastructure.

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Speaker 4: It's not going to do well.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, you get beat route, you make shitty beat

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Speaker 2: sugar if you want, but you can't, and you can't.

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Speaker 2: You can't take European farmers in moss and transport them

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Speaker 2: to the Caribbean or to like the African coast, because

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Speaker 2: they die. They die really quickly. It's it's very there.

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Speaker 4: They don't.

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Speaker 2: They don't do well in the climate, with the bugs,

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Speaker 2: with the diseases. It's just not a good bet. And

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Speaker 2: so the only way that you can farm a lot

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Speaker 2: of sugar is slaves, right. I mean, theoretically they could

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Speaker 2: have just paid locals to make it. Yeah, but part

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Speaker 2: of the problem is that, especially in the Caribbean, they

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Speaker 2: do initially start and they're not paying them. They're enslaving

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Speaker 2: local labors, but they kill those a lot of those

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Speaker 2: local indigenous people quickly. Right, So you need one way

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Speaker 2: or the other. You need a shitload of slaves if

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Speaker 2: you're going to keep this sugar thing going and really

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Speaker 2: spin it up to the kind of industry Portugal knows

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Speaker 2: it can be. Now, the Portuguese had explored the Guinea

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Speaker 2: coast of Africa, and they had found tribes who wanted

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Speaker 2: the goods they had to trade, largely guns and gunpowder.

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Speaker 2: That was a big thing for the tribes that they meet,

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Speaker 2: and they were willing to exchange enslaved human beings. And

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Speaker 2: these were generally captured members of enemy tribes, right, that

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Speaker 2: was the primary way. We'll talk about this a bit more.

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Speaker 2: But like these are, these tribes are fighting their own wars, right,

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Speaker 2: And like most cultures, including European cultures, a very common

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Speaker 2: thing to do when you beat an enemy in war

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Speaker 2: is take a bunch of them into slavery. Right, And

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Speaker 2: so they've got these slaves lying around, so to speak,

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Speaker 2: and the Portuguese are like, we need people. Do you

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Speaker 2: like guns, And a lot of these stripes are like, yeah, actually,

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Speaker 2: guns sound great. So this trade kind of starts up,

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Speaker 2: and the Portuguese begin taking captured African slaves and moving

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Speaker 2: them to island plantations near the Guinea coast. Right. They're not,

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Speaker 2: you know, taking them to the West Indies at first, right,

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Speaker 2: because that's not part of portugal sphere of influence at

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Speaker 2: the time. So around the same time, though, their Spanish

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Speaker 2: rivals had started building sugar plantations in the Caribbean, and

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Speaker 2: these were at first, as I said, manned by indigenous islanders,

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Speaker 2: but the brutality of the work and the disease brought

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Speaker 2: by Europeans quickly wiped a lot of these people out.

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Speaker 2: Somebody that there weren't enough to continue laboring. In fifteen eighteen,

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Speaker 2: the Spanish king ordered four thousand African slaves imported to

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Speaker 2: the Caribbean, paying Portugal for the human labor needed to

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Speaker 2: fuel their sugar plantations and launching the Atlantic slave trade.

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Speaker 2: So that's that's kind of this is sort of this

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Speaker 2: the generally agreed like start to the slave trade. A

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Speaker 2: little bit of a soft start because like when you

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Speaker 2: count that, but like probably when Portugal starts sending slaves

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Speaker 2: to Spanish colonies in the Caribbean is a good start.

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Speaker 2: El Mina, that fort, first established as a hub for

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Speaker 2: gold trading, was converted into a prison for enslaved Africans.

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Speaker 2: The upper levels of the fort contained luxury housing for

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Speaker 2: traveling Europeans, and the bottom levels consisted of a sprawling

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Speaker 2: series of slave dungeons. Wow, this was the first big Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's an ugly place still around, you can see it.

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Speaker 2: It's a historical site.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I love to see a literally stratified society where you've

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Speaker 4: just really really made it pretty fucking obvious what you're

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Speaker 4: going for. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's one of those sometimes you watch like snow

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Speaker 2: Piercer and you're like, well, that's not very subtle, but

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Speaker 2: neither of his history.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, sometimes history can be that way.

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Speaker 2: So this is the first like big slave trading post

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Speaker 2: in Africa, and the many that followed would be built

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Speaker 2: in its image. Right, So Elmina is kind of the

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Speaker 2: proof of concept and the model off of which, like

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Speaker 2: these future slave trading posts will be built. Every cell

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Speaker 2: in the dungeon was meant to hold up to two

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Speaker 2: hundred people crammed together so tight that they didn't even

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Speaker 2: have room to lie down. One write up I found

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Speaker 2: on pbs dot org's Slave Kingdom series notes quote the

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Speaker 2: floor of the dungeon, as a result of centuries of

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Speaker 2: impacted filth and human excrement, is now several inches higher

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Speaker 2: than it was when it was built Outbreaks of malaria

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Speaker 2: and yellow fever were common. Staircases led directly from the

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Speaker 2: governor's chambers to the women's dungeons below, making it easy

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Speaker 2: for him to select personal concubines from amongst the women.

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Speaker 2: And you know, I get why they used the term.

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Speaker 2: That's how they would have framed it. Then these aren't concubines, Yes,

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Speaker 2: these are?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, like this is raping people, It's what this is.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's obviously like a lot of concubines would have

356
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Speaker 2: been technically weren't free people. But there's also many stories

357
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Speaker 2: of like different concubines accumulating political power and influence, and

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Speaker 2: that is just not the kind of situation we're talking

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Speaker 2: about here, Yeah, historians saidharth Kara goes into more detail

360
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Speaker 2: about this particular aspect of the system. Quote, women were

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Speaker 2: displayed for the governor in a courtyard. After he made

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Speaker 2: a selection, the woman or girl was washed with well

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Speaker 2: water and brought up a staircase through a trapdoor and

364
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Speaker 2: into his quarters. If she resisted, she was shackled to

365
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Speaker 2: cannonballs in the courtyard without food or water until she

366
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Speaker 2: relinted or died. Most Europeans also took winches from local villages,

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Speaker 2: with whom they fathered countless children.

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Speaker 5: Yeah that's not very nice, no, And this is like,

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Speaker 5: this is the norm anytime you're talking about the slave trade.

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Speaker 2: This is happening not just in these castles as we'll

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Speaker 2: talk about. It's happening on the slave ships. It's obviously

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Speaker 2: happening in the plantations. Rape is not talked enough as

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Speaker 2: like a major This is like essentially how especially a

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Speaker 2: lot of like the low level people facilitating the slave trade.

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Speaker 2: This is like their Christmas bonus in a way, Like

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Speaker 2: this is how they like, this is one of the

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Speaker 2: perks of the job, is right, Yeah, well, you're not

378
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Speaker 2: paid well and it's dangerous, but you get to do

379
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Speaker 2: all the rape you want.

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Speaker 4: Fantastic. Again, this is like no wage benefit, no taxis.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, right, exactly, speaking of non taxable things.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, as rough Pavot.

383
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Speaker 2: Yeah, that one wasn't easy, and we're back, so uh.

384
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Speaker 2: Any slaves, male or female, who fought back or attempted

385
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Speaker 2: to lead insurrections were locked in a condemned cell, which

386
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Speaker 2: Kura describes as a small room on the ground level

387
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Speaker 2: without ventilation or light. The slaves were not given food

388
00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,840
Speaker 2: or water, and eventually died. The British displayed the corpses

389
00:19:57,840 --> 00:19:59,959
Speaker 2: to the other slaves as an example of the concept

390
00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:02,359
Speaker 2: of resistance, after which the bodies were thrown into the

391
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Speaker 2: ocean for the sharks. Car is talking about a little

392
00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,280
Speaker 2: bit later period of this is happening under the Portuguese too.

393
00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:09,520
Speaker 2: He's talking about the British period. But they're both doing

394
00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:12,919
Speaker 2: this right, because slave uprisings start happening as soon as

395
00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:15,200
Speaker 2: slavery does, and it scares the shit out of slavers.

396
00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:18,880
Speaker 2: They're constantly terrified of this, right, one of the justifications

397
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Speaker 2: of the brutality as well. Otherwise they'll do an uprising

398
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Speaker 2: and it's like, have you tried just not enslaving.

399
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Speaker 4: Them, I don't know, yeah, probably wouldn't be killing you

400
00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:32,560
Speaker 4: then get to leave them alone, could just leave them alone.

401
00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,240
Speaker 2: So on the seaboard side of Elmina was the chillingly

402
00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:40,240
Speaker 2: named Door of No Return. This is where enslaved people

403
00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:43,920
Speaker 2: were offloaded into slave ships right which would take them

404
00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:47,240
Speaker 2: to their final destinations. While the Portuguese and the Spaniards

405
00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:51,040
Speaker 2: wetted Europe's appetite for African slaves, other European powers were

406
00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:53,720
Speaker 2: quick to involve themselves in the exploding industry, and as

407
00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:57,840
Speaker 2: things kind of soured for the Portuguese and Spanish empires,

408
00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:00,560
Speaker 2: other players are going to take over the slave trade.

409
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Speaker 4: Now.

410
00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:04,280
Speaker 2: As I noted, the money that fueled the slave trade

411
00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:09,320
Speaker 2: is European. Right, Slavery became central to the economy of

412
00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:11,800
Speaker 2: New World possessions in places like the Caribbean, but it's

413
00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:15,560
Speaker 2: not a purely European business. It is a partnership and

414
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,320
Speaker 2: the people a crucial part of the slave trade because

415
00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:21,240
Speaker 2: it's not Europeans wandering into the center of the country

416
00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:24,040
Speaker 2: generally to grab people, right Like, that's not how this

417
00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:27,080
Speaker 2: is happening. These slaves are being taken and are being

418
00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:31,040
Speaker 2: transported by kaufel, which is like a chain of basically

419
00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:34,359
Speaker 2: handcuffs and chains that keeps the line of people together. Right, Like,

420
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Speaker 2: it's how you chain a bunch of slaves together and

421
00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:39,360
Speaker 2: walk them from wherever in the country, you're taking them

422
00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:40,760
Speaker 2: to the coast where they're going to get on into

423
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Speaker 2: a slave shape.

424
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Speaker 6: Right.

425
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Speaker 2: They used coffles as well in the Americas and what

426
00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:47,320
Speaker 2: like Once it's not just but like, yeah, that's how

427
00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:50,960
Speaker 2: they're being transported. And the slaves are being gathered and

428
00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:54,720
Speaker 2: taken generally by a mix of African and Arab slave traders.

429
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Speaker 4: Right.

430
00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:58,320
Speaker 2: These people are doing the dirty work of actually capturing

431
00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:00,080
Speaker 2: the human beings who are then loaded on the ships

432
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Speaker 2: and sold. And for these traders, their participation in what

433
00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:06,640
Speaker 2: we know was the Atlantic slave trade wouldn't have seemed

434
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Speaker 2: to them a huge departure from the kinds of slavery

435
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:11,879
Speaker 2: that had existed since antiquity. In a two thousand and

436
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:15,440
Speaker 2: five study for Anti Slavery International, Mike Kay Wrights quote,

437
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:19,600
Speaker 2: slavery existed in Africa and elsewhere before the intervention of Europeans,

438
00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:22,719
Speaker 2: albeit in a very different context. People were enslaved as

439
00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:25,200
Speaker 2: a consequence of being captured in war, as a punishment

440
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,000
Speaker 2: for committing a crime, or as a means of escaping famine.

441
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,320
Speaker 2: While enslavement in Africa could be extremely brutal. African slaves

442
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:33,520
Speaker 2: had a social as well as an economic value, and

443
00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:36,280
Speaker 2: they brought prestige and status to their owner. Slaves held

444
00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:40,000
Speaker 2: in Africa were still generally considered people and part of society.

445
00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:43,560
Speaker 2: By contrast, those sold into the Transatlantic slave trade were

446
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:46,320
Speaker 2: seen as chattel to be bought and sold. Their only

447
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:50,000
Speaker 2: worth was considered in monetary terms. As a consequence, enslaved

448
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:54,840
Speaker 2: Africans were routinely tortured, whipped, branded, beaten, chained, etc. Separated

449
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,399
Speaker 2: from other family members, even deprived of their own names.

450
00:22:57,520 --> 00:22:59,639
Speaker 2: Hardly any of the millions who were transported across the

451
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:03,280
Speaker 2: Atlanta to ever return to Africa. And that's important, which

452
00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:05,480
Speaker 2: is that like, yeah, it's a bad thing to be

453
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:09,800
Speaker 2: a slaver, but these slavers are not thinking of slavery

454
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:12,000
Speaker 2: in the same way as the Europeans who are taking

455
00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:15,240
Speaker 2: the enslaved people from them, right that it's just a

456
00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:17,560
Speaker 2: very different thing. And you know, you could say they

457
00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:19,560
Speaker 2: don't care because they're getting guns and stuff, and that's

458
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:23,400
Speaker 2: a very these are bad people, yeah, but the slavery

459
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:27,360
Speaker 2: that existed and that they that exist existed in their

460
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,480
Speaker 2: heads was very different from like the slavery that Europeans

461
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:34,080
Speaker 2: were increasingly executing. It is a mark of how different

462
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:36,679
Speaker 2: different African slavery was in Africa that it was not

463
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 2: uncommon for enslaved people to marry into the family that

464
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,119
Speaker 2: owned them. They would keep their given names and their

465
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:45,200
Speaker 2: family identity, and if freedware again unlikely to face lingering

466
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,720
Speaker 2: stigma over their former status. So again you're just talking

467
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,240
Speaker 2: about kind of a fundamentally different work of what slavery is.

468
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:53,760
Speaker 2: We'll talk later in these episodes. We'll have an account

469
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:57,680
Speaker 2: of an African man who as a boy was captured

470
00:23:57,720 --> 00:23:59,560
Speaker 2: by some of these slave traders, and we'll get some

471
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:03,240
Speaker 2: more detail to what that process looked like. John Newton,

472
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:06,200
Speaker 2: who's a former slave captain who became an abolitionist, we'll

473
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:09,399
Speaker 2: talk about him later, suggested that the principal source of

474
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:11,760
Speaker 2: the slave trade at this time was quote the wars

475
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 2: that prevail among the natives, and scholarship seems to back

476
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 2: a good deal of this up. However, as Newton noted,

477
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,560
Speaker 2: the English and other Europeans have been charged with fomenting

478
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,640
Speaker 2: these wars. I verily believe that the far greater part

479
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:25,760
Speaker 2: of the wars in Africa would cease if the Europeans

480
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,040
Speaker 2: would cease to tempt them by offering goods for slaves,

481
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:30,760
Speaker 2: and you do have undeniably. It's amo just like a

482
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:32,640
Speaker 2: little bit of a World War One situation where you've

483
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:34,679
Speaker 2: got all of these different tribes and kingdoms that are

484
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:38,000
Speaker 2: enemies that have been fighting for in some cases for centuries,

485
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,160
Speaker 2: and Europeans come in and start offering guns and cannons

486
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:43,359
Speaker 2: in exchange for slaves. So now it becomes not only

487
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:45,639
Speaker 2: do you want them if you're fighting a war, but

488
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,919
Speaker 2: if your neighbor is trading slaves to the Europeans for

489
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:51,720
Speaker 2: guns and cannons and you don't get guns and cannons,

490
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 2: what's gonna happen to you the next time you have

491
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,080
Speaker 2: a war? R Like inciting is as simple as that.

492
00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 2: It's not necessarily some CIA skullduggery. It's just you start

493
00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 2: selling guns to one kingdom and they're all going to

494
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 2: want guns, and the only thing you want in exchange.

495
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:05,719
Speaker 4: For guns is safe.

496
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:06,200
Speaker 3: Right.

497
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, It's just like a classic like vicious cycle thing, right,

498
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 4: I won bills on the other Yeah.

499
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 2: And when we talk about like the great British fortunes,

500
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:16,359
Speaker 2: for example, that were built on slavery. People tend to

501
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 2: focus on the people who were part of slave syndicates.

502
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 2: But a huge number of the guns that are produced

503
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 2: in Great Britain during the period like this three hundred

504
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 2: year period are sent immediately to Africa. Those are also

505
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 2: slave fortunes, you know, and gunpowder too, those are slave fortunes.

506
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, totally makes sense. You're country reaching to that

507
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:38,920
Speaker 4: same cycle of death right slaveman exactly exactly.

508
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,240
Speaker 2: The first English slave ship left Africa somewhere around fifteen

509
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 2: fifty five. In sixteen twenty one, the Dutch West India

510
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:48,040
Speaker 2: Company was formed, and it proved so efficient that it

511
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,200
Speaker 2: drank Portugal's milkshake. In about twenty years time, the Dutch

512
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,439
Speaker 2: West India the Dutch become the major slavers in the

513
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 2: Guinea coast instead like and they take over from Portugal.

514
00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 2: They capture a lot of their coastal forts and start

515
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 2: to dominating the Atlantic slave trade for themselves. Now they're

516
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 2: not top shit of the slave trade for very long.

517
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:08,919
Speaker 2: Within the space of about a century, the majority of

518
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 2: slave ships taking Africans to the New World are going

519
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 2: to be British, right. It takes about one hundred years,

520
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 2: but England becomes the primary like movers and shakers of

521
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 2: the Atlantic slave trade, and they will stay that way

522
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:25,120
Speaker 2: until it ends. England begins colonizing the Caribbean right around

523
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:27,479
Speaker 2: the same time the Dutch start pushing the Portuguese out

524
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 2: of West Africa. In sixteen fifty five, a century after

525
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 2: their first slave ship departed the Guinea Coast, England captures

526
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 2: Jamaica from Spain. In short order. It becomes the most

527
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 2: profitable piece of their overseas empire. By the late seventeen hundreds,

528
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 2: British imports of sugar from Jamaica are worth five times

529
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 2: as much as the combined value of all of the

530
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,360
Speaker 2: imports from the thirteen colonies in North America.

531
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:49,880
Speaker 6: Geese.

532
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess that's what it is. You

533
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 4: enslave human beings.

534
00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,400
Speaker 2: Right, It's a really efficient thing from a business point

535
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 2: of view, when you enslave human beings to produce the

536
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 2: most addictive drug yet known to well, I guess tobacco's.

537
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:08,679
Speaker 4: Up there some other stuff going on, but yeah, I

538
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:13,120
Speaker 4: know people can consume sugar like for more often than tobacco.

539
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:17,959
Speaker 4: Is probably falonga and I think probably more people like

540
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:22,439
Speaker 4: sugar than Yeah, it isn't a quiet taste. It's just

541
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:24,920
Speaker 4: I mean, it's just impossible to look at how profitable

542
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 4: this is not be like well, yeah, because it's fucking

543
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 4: addictive as hell, you know, and it's also kind of

544
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 4: worth Americans keeping in mind when we get up our

545
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,480
Speaker 4: own asses about like the American revolutions, Like, well, the

546
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 4: British could kind of afford to cut bait because the

547
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:42,120
Speaker 4: Thirteen Colonies, they were not that big a part of.

548
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 2: The empire, right, Okay, I had a lot of irons

549
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:52,200
Speaker 2: in the fire. Okay, they had some other options tobacco, good,

550
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 2: lack everyone. Now, these vast profits could only be sustained

551
00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 2: by the constant import of new slaves to Jamaica, because

552
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,640
Speaker 2: it's a very deadly business actually farming this stuff, historian said.

553
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 2: Hearth Kara writes that quote. By the late eighteenth century,

554
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:08,879
Speaker 2: the slave trade had permitted almost every aspect of British

555
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 2: society and helped transform the nation into an economic superpower.

556
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,679
Speaker 2: The importance of this trade to Great Britain almost exceeds calculation,

557
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:19,439
Speaker 2: stated one Liverpool ship captain. A Royal African Company official

558
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 2: noted the Negro trade on the coast of Africa is

559
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 2: the chief and fundamental support of the British colonies and

560
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 2: plantations in America. This is funding British colonialism elsewhere, right, Like,

561
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 2: this is in a lot of ways what made it

562
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,200
Speaker 2: possible for them to colonize the start colonizing the Americas

563
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 2: is the money that came from you know, the slave

564
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 2: trade in slav Yeah, enslaving people and working them to death.

565
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I guess stealing the land too, right, like

566
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 4: it's a great land because all your impt philly like

567
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 4: stealing shit. Yeah, who'd have thought?

568
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there's a great movie point break about that,

569
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 2: which I've been meaning to talk to you about. James,

570
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:00,479
Speaker 2: Do you have a Matt Do you want any asks?

571
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 2: I have a couple, got a good, good couple. Okay, yeah,

572
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 2: I got a Reagan mask.

573
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 4: I don't know. We'll talk about this, okay, yeah, probably

574
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 4: you can probably.

575
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 3: Get a swe off, like we are we doing this again?

576
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 4: Yeah again, Sophie, we never did. What are you talking about? Sophie?

577
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 2: The listeners can't see me winking.

578
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 4: Better say it out loud so everyone knows. Ro But

579
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 4: that's my wink in voice.

580
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's my wink and voice. So we're never gonna

581
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 2: know precisely how many enslaved Africans were killed just as

582
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 2: a byproduct of the slave trade. Most estimates are between

583
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 2: ten and twenty percent of people enslaved people who were

584
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 2: like brought over the Middle Passage died during the journey.

585
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 2: But I mean that's ten and twenty percent is itself

586
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 2: a pretty wide margin. We simply don't know. In some

587
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 2: voy I mean some ships, everyone died, But in some

588
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 2: voyages it was like thirty or forty percent, you know,

589
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 2: sometimes it's less. Uh, it really just depended on the captain.

590
00:29:55,960 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 2: So these are rough averages, right. The knowledge that this

591
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 2: sort of human shrinkets was inevitable that a lot of

592
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 2: the people that you bring over are going to die

593
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 2: led slavers to cram ever more people into the boats, right, So, like, well,

594
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 2: if ten or twenty percent are going to die, then

595
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 2: we've got to bring even more people, which means that

596
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 2: the boats are even more deadly.

597
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 4: You know, yeah, these holes are. Yeah, it only works

598
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 4: if you see it there being an infinite supply of

599
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 4: people who have almost no value, right like.

600
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,959
Speaker 2: Right exactly, Jesus, And if you don't know about how

601
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 2: germs work, right right back, Like, well, we just jamm

602
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 2: more people in the hold where like everyone is going

603
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 2: to the bathroom all over, like it's everywhere, like you're

604
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 2: in a hold, you're chained together, you have and you're sick.

605
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 2: A lot of people are too ill to have any

606
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 2: control over when they go or not because they're dying

607
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 2: right Like you're jamming them.

608
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 4: Into these dizy, nasty, disease.

609
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 2: Riddled tiny hell rooms. It's just it's a nightmare everyone's in.

610
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 2: It's a boo box from the hook, but like everyone's

611
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 2: in it right for months. It's just incomprehensible suffering. Yeah,

612
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 2: around ten million enslaved people survived the crossing to the

613
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 2: New World during the course of the Atlantic slave trade,

614
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 2: which suggests about one to two million people died over

615
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 2: the same period of time, right kind of. I think

616
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 2: roughly that's the estimate, And that's not the end of

617
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 2: how many people that's fucking killed. Because about two thirds

618
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 2: of the slaves who survived transit were immediately put to

619
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 2: the task of cutting sugarcane in the America as the

620
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 2: Caribbean or doing other crops, but sugar plantations were the

621
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 2: big one and they are hell on earth. Laborers worked

622
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 2: fourteen hours a day. The heat was intense. They're in

623
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 2: an unfamiliar climate with unfamiliar diseases, and about a third

624
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 2: of enslaved Africans died within three years of reaching the Caribbean. Yeah,

625
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 2: like you're just feeding people into the maw of this

626
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 2: this system of death. It could, it could. It's it's

627
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 2: barely less lethal than a concentration camp.

628
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 4: Right, yeah, homogly.

629
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, And the only reason is that they wanted these

630
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 2: people to live for some period of time to extract

631
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 2: value from Yeah, exactly. In his article for Anti Slavery International,

632
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 2: k ADS plantation owners in the British West Indies were

633
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 2: initially unconcerned about this, as they could simply buy more

634
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 2: slaves and calculated that it was cheaper to buy than breed.

635
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 2: It is no exaggeration to say that slaves were treated

636
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 2: worse than animals in the Caribbean. Yeah, Jesus Christ, Yeah, yeah, Yeah,

637
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 2: that's pretty rough, right the whole Like why breed them?

638
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 2: That's too much trouble, Yeah, right.

639
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 4: Like a thing that we do routine for like cows,

640
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 4: and they were doing right then for of cows and

641
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 4: sheep and shit that they wanted to eat.

642
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think some of it may just have been that, like, well,

643
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 2: when women are giving birth, they need like some degree

644
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 2: of care, and even that is more effort than I

645
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 2: want to put into thinking about these people. I just

646
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 2: want them to work until they drop. Right. This attitude

647
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 2: is going to change over time, but you know, that's

648
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 2: how a lot of people think. For a significant chunk

649
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 2: of it, for more than three hundred years, the slave

650
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 2: trade continued unobated. There is very little evidence that it

651
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 2: was considered controversial at all by most people who lived

652
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 2: back in the Imperial Core for a large chunk of

653
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 2: this period of time. Adam Smith, the famous economist, gave

654
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 2: a lecture at the University of Glasgow in seventeen sixty

655
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 2: three in which he argued that slavery was foundational to

656
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 2: human civilization, It existed in every culture throughout history, and

657
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 2: it had very little chance of ever being abolished. Historian

658
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 2: Adam Hoschild makes the claim that the basic morality of

659
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 2: slavery as a system was so unquestioned in the late

660
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 2: seventeen hundreds in England that if you were to go

661
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 2: back with a time machine and pick random people on

662
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 2: the street and tell them slavery should be abolished, nine

663
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 2: out of ten listeners would reject you out of hand

664
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 2: as a maniac. It was just not at all controversial

665
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,719
Speaker 2: up until the very end, pretty much of the seventeen hundreds,

666
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:46,959
Speaker 2: pretty late in the seventeen hundreds, Almost every great fortune

667
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 2: in England during this time was dependent on the slave trade.

668
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 2: Between seventeen eighty seven and eighteen oh seven, every mayor

669
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 2: of Liverpool, which at its peak was the major hub

670
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 2: of the slave trade. About forty percent of the entire

671
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 2: European slave trade passes through Liverpool. Every Mayor of Liverpool

672
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 2: as a financial interest in human trafficking. The website Recovered

673
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:09,279
Speaker 2: Histories notes that by the late eighteenth century, fifty to

674
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:13,359
Speaker 2: sixty members of Parliament represented slave plantations. William Beckford, two

675
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 2: time mayor of London, owned a twenty two thousand acre

676
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 2: plantation in Jamaica. Great, yeah cool, so yeah, Like the

677
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,840
Speaker 2: ruling class is all very much embedded with this stuff, right,

678
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,399
Speaker 2: It's the entire economy, right, And even the people who

679
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:29,880
Speaker 2: aren't directly owning slaves are making money from the people

680
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 2: who owned slaves, right right, It's just like a foundational

681
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 2: underpinning of how everything works now, even outside of direct

682
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 2: involvement in the plantation system, it's impossible to avoid. Like

683
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 2: I said earlier, Brittan exported about one hundred and fifty

684
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,279
Speaker 2: thousand firearms per year to Africa during this period of time,

685
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 2: and like the seventeen hundreds, and these guns are being

686
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,960
Speaker 2: traded to locals in exchange for people. The city of

687
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:55,400
Speaker 2: Birmingham was a major copper powerhouse and much of that

688
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 2: copper was also sent overseas to Africa where it was

689
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 2: traded for people. Because it's not just guns, their training.

690
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:03,400
Speaker 2: So again, it's really hard just not to be involved

691
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 2: in to some extent and profiting from the slave ye,

692
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:06,919
Speaker 2: even if you don't want to.

693
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, And it seems like there's no one who

694
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 4: didn't want to, Like everyone was just fine with this.

695
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, very it's it's it's pretty much just the uh

696
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 2: oh shit, it's pretty much just the uh not Mennonites,

697
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,720
Speaker 2: but the Quakers. Yes, it's pretty much just the Quakers

698
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:24,360
Speaker 2: who don't want to be financially like, not all of

699
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:26,319
Speaker 2: the Quakers in this period of time, let's be clear,

700
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 2: but like the Quakers are fairly consistently a lot of

701
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,280
Speaker 2: Quakers from a fairly early point in the slave trader

702
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 2: saying this is bad and we shouldn't do it. But

703
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 2: they're also seen as kind of kooks to most people

704
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 2: because they're saying crazy shit like I should it's bad

705
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 2: to be in the military and fight and die for

706
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 2: a king.

707
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, and maybe you shouldn't be.

708
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 2: Ging saying crazy shit. I think these wacky Quakers.

709
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 4: The term Quaker is one that like they didn't prefer

710
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:58,200
Speaker 4: to use for themselves, right, It's like a derogatory term

711
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 4: that was put upon them that I guess I think so. Yeah,

712
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,400
Speaker 4: they called themselves flat. I know, they called themselves friends.

713
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, the friends, And it's one of those like hard

714
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 2: to pick a group of people in like Western society

715
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 2: in early modernity who were more consistently right.

716
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 4: Than the they're really cold quite a few times. Yeah,

717
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:23,080
Speaker 4: you can go back and be like yep, yep, I

718
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:23,840
Speaker 4: mean still.

719
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 2: To bad on everything, but a lot.

720
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:26,279
Speaker 1: Yeah.

721
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 4: This very morning, I was out with a Quaker friend

722
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 4: and we were helping some migrants get groceries because they

723
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 4: can't get them otherwise and they need to feed the

724
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:38,399
Speaker 4: kids of the holidays. Like they're they're still still doing

725
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 4: a pretty good job.

726
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:42,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, we could talk about religion and all

727
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 2: of the things I don't agree with. But if you're

728
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 2: if you're pretty if you're hewing pretty close to the

729
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 2: idea that like it's bad to kill people and it's

730
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,760
Speaker 2: bad to own people and it's good to feed people.

731
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, you've got to be right more than you're wrong. Yeah. Yeah,

732
00:36:57,239 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 4: you're beaten the average, especially back then.

733
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're gonna be the average in your society.

734
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:04,879
Speaker 4: Now.

735
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:07,400
Speaker 2: You know what church didn't have a problem with slavery, James,

736
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 2: any of them really.

737
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 1: But.

738
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:11,399
Speaker 4: Most of them.

739
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:14,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, but the anglic the Church of England right to

740
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 2: the Church of England, big fans of slavery. Yeah, you're

741
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 2: deeply financially involved. Now there is there is a sect,

742
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:26,239
Speaker 2: like a radical Anglican sect that are anti slavery from

743
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:28,399
Speaker 2: like a I think fairly early in the seventeen hundred.

744
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 2: But like the mainstream of the Church of England is

745
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:33,800
Speaker 2: fine with this stuff. And in fact, the English Anglican

746
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:37,840
Speaker 2: Church owns vast plantations in Barbados and other Caribbean islands.

747
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:41,320
Speaker 2: When anyone bothered to discuss the morality of the slave trade,

748
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:45,400
Speaker 2: the default assumption was that it represented a kindness to Africans.

749
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 2: Liverpool merchant Michael Sargent gave a representative version of this argument.

750
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:51,759
Speaker 2: We ought to consider whether the negroes in a well

751
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 2: regulated plantation under the protection of a kind master do

752
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 2: not enjoys great, nay even greater advantages than when they

753
00:37:57,600 --> 00:37:59,280
Speaker 2: are under their own despotic government.

754
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 4: Fuck fuck's sake. Yeah, just what pulled that directly out

755
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 4: of his ass? Like what knowledge does he have of

756
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:10,040
Speaker 4: governance in the interior of Africa?

757
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 2: Well, and like, yeah, they live under a despot as

758
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 2: opposed to you who lives under a king in a

759
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 2: state that makes all of its money from slavery.

760
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:21,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, and they're dying after three years. Like how how

761
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 4: could it be better than whatever the situation was back home?

762
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:30,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's people will just make shit up. Yeah, it's

763
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:32,799
Speaker 2: just to make themselves feel better. Who knows how much

764
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 2: he even cared, Like this is just a p This

765
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:36,719
Speaker 2: is like, well, you know, we just don't know if

766
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 2: cigarettes are bad for people. There's conflicting evidence, or you know,

767
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:43,120
Speaker 2: we can't really predict the climate, so who's to say

768
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 2: if all these gasoline emissions are bad?

769
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:46,879
Speaker 4: You know, Like it's that kind of.

770
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:50,879
Speaker 2: Argument, right, like maybe they're better off you know things

771
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 2: are in Africa.

772
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:54,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's just let's just hope it's that way. Otherwise

773
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 4: to face the guilt of what they're doing.

774
00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:00,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, otherwise I'm a worldless directs.

775
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:03,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm a piece of shit on like a Centuri's

776
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 4: wide style.

777
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:08,360
Speaker 2: Speaking of world historic monsters.

778
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 3: I was hoping you would do this as an ad transition.

779
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:16,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, but some of them, right, maybe we don't know. Yeah,

780
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 4: we never know. I don't be sure to DM Sophie

781
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 4: and let them know. If you don't have the advertisers,

782
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 4: it's I write, okay.

783
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:30,919
Speaker 2: Hmm, Yeah, anyway, here's ads. This podcast is sponsored by Liverpool.

784
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 2: Liverpool who were the slave trading hub of the world

785
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 2: for a period of time. Maybe we could do it again.

786
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:37,759
Speaker 2: Visit Liverpool.

787
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:44,319
Speaker 4: My mom's from Liverpool. What did Liverpool do to your mother?

788
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:46,440
Speaker 4: I mean they did a lot to some.

789
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:53,279
Speaker 2: They've done to you, These liver Puddians. I'm offended on

790
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 2: their behalf, on behalf of the you know, the world.

791
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:58,960
Speaker 4: About ten million people who were enslave.

792
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was offended by when Robert said, I'm winking

793
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 3: that's for the people that can't see me.

794
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 2: All I'm going to say is, if you know anyone

795
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 2: from Liverpool, hit them again.

796
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 3: From you know, if you know anyone from Liverpool, we

797
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 3: get them.

798
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 4: My entire on the side of the family is from Liverpool.

799
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 6: This is behind the bastards, James.

800
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 4: It's not a good time. No, it's not. No, no, no,

801
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:27,759
Speaker 4: that's why it's when we let we left Liverpool in

802
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:31,680
Speaker 4: opposition around the nineteenth.

803
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 2: If you know anybody from Richmond, hit them too, you know,

804
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:37,880
Speaker 2: and maybe wink hit people if they come, Yeah, while

805
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:39,280
Speaker 2: you hit them.

806
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:40,719
Speaker 3: Wink while you're hitting them exactly.

807
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:44,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's just a joke.

808
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:44,719
Speaker 2: It's a bit.

809
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:54,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's a bit. Don't hit people and we're back.

810
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:58,440
Speaker 2: Given how central slavery was to the British economy and

811
00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:01,320
Speaker 2: how one questioned the morality the institution was to most

812
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:04,319
Speaker 2: Britains in this period, it is remarkable that only a

813
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:07,919
Speaker 2: few decades into the nineteenth century, Great Britain would put

814
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 2: an end to this. It's part in the slave trade, right,

815
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 2: I mean, it's less than that to the slave trade. Sorry,

816
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 2: it's like eighteen oh seven that the slave trade ends

817
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 2: in like eighteen thirty something, we'll talk about that later,

818
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 2: where slavery is made illegal in the British Empire. And

819
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 2: given the fact that like in the seventeen sixties, even

820
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:24,279
Speaker 2: up to the seventeen seventies, you'd have been a hard

821
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:26,359
Speaker 2: press to find a person on the street who would

822
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 2: be like, yeah, slavery's bad, Like that would have been

823
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,879
Speaker 2: a weird take not long before this. So it's kind

824
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:35,040
Speaker 2: of remarkable how quickly things turn around. And that's why

825
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:37,400
Speaker 2: I want to tell this story is that one of

826
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 2: the things that's so impressive is how much like this

827
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 2: seems like a hopeless cause. If you're an abolitionist in

828
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 2: like seventeen sixties, seventeen seventy, the idea that you might

829
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:50,840
Speaker 2: get the entire country on board ending slavery in the

830
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:56,760
Speaker 2: slave trade alone is wild, right, Like, and they did. So, Yeah,

831
00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 2: that's pretty important for us here staring at an insurmountable

832
00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:05,760
Speaker 2: mountain of problems, to pay attention to how this happened. Yeah,

833
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 2: And it's worth noting. The abolitionist movement is often described

834
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 2: by historians specifically, the abolitionist movement that starts in England

835
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 2: and first ends the slave trade and then slavery in

836
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:20,600
Speaker 2: the British Empire is the first social movement dedicated entirely

837
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:24,279
Speaker 2: to the recognition and protection of other people's rights right

838
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:27,880
Speaker 2: you are the movie is not fighting for their own rights.

839
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 2: They are fighting for the rights of a separate group

840
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:32,760
Speaker 2: of people with outside of people aren't even their countrymen generally.

841
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a really interesting way to

842
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 4: frame it.

843
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:42,799
Speaker 2: It's significant, right, and that deserves to be celebrated. There's

844
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:45,279
Speaker 2: also this kind of annoying thing today, and I'd be

845
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:47,719
Speaker 2: remiss if I didn't point out that a loud minority

846
00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:51,319
Speaker 2: of racists today will argue that the Atlantic slave trade

847
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:54,400
Speaker 2: isn't something Westerners should be ashamed of. It's something that

848
00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 2: we should be proud of because we ended slavery and

849
00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:59,239
Speaker 2: nobody else ever tried to do that. Right, It's an

850
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:01,880
Speaker 2: example of how our culture is that we're the only

851
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 2: ones who tried to end slavery. Is the first fans

852
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 2: are the first people to decide slavery should be banned,

853
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:06,920
Speaker 2: you know.

854
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, fucking nonsense, Like it's.

855
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:16,759
Speaker 2: It's not true for one thing, but there were societies

856
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:19,359
Speaker 2: that banned kinds of slavery at least, you know, they

857
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 2: still had things that we might say is problematic. But

858
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:27,399
Speaker 2: like anyway, whatever any acknowledgment of how remarkable the pan

859
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:30,320
Speaker 2: abolitionist cause was, and it was has to be tempered

860
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:33,360
Speaker 2: by the acknowledgment that it came into being, not to

861
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:37,879
Speaker 2: be Not like the abolitionists that we're talking about. We're

862
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:41,200
Speaker 2: not fighting against slavery as the general concept that had

863
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:44,960
Speaker 2: existed since time immemorial. They were fighting specifically against the

864
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 2: uniquely terrible and uniquely Western shadow slave trade that existed

865
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:53,280
Speaker 2: from the sixteenth and the nineteenth centuries. The nightmarish hors

866
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:55,840
Speaker 2: of that system, which was so much worse than the

867
00:43:55,840 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 2: the very bad slavery that existed forever, is what inspired

868
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:00,800
Speaker 2: this movement.

869
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:07,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's unfortunately. I'm a personal who teaches at a

870
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:11,160
Speaker 4: college right now, and we are we're living in the

871
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:15,800
Speaker 4: era of chatbots, right and I have noticed a certain

872
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 4: number of chatbot generated essays arguing this point that you

873
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 4: are making, and it doesn't get any less upsetting even

874
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:26,399
Speaker 4: after reading it hundreds of times that or like, yeah,

875
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:28,239
Speaker 4: there was slavery elsewhere.

876
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 2: And it's like if at some point in the future

877
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:33,799
Speaker 2: America got a complete handle on the whole gun thing

878
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:36,160
Speaker 2: and whatever we did, whatever we had to do to

879
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:38,400
Speaker 2: make sure that nobody dies from guns in the United

880
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 2: States again, and then people like one hundred years after

881
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 2: that were like Yeah, America's America is the greatest culture

882
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:47,399
Speaker 2: ever because we were the only ones who realized guns

883
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:47,759
Speaker 2: were bad.

884
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:48,800
Speaker 4: It's like you're leaving.

885
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:52,400
Speaker 2: Out a really big part of the story.

886
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 4: You're really cutting out.

887
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:58,359
Speaker 7: Some important facts bit there that you probably probably don't

888
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:02,320
Speaker 7: want to gloss over. We solved an American in that society,

889
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 7: like shit talking a country that allows hunting rifles and

890
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:06,400
Speaker 7: it's like, wait.

891
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 4: A second, Yeah, you're forgetting some stuff. It's pretty bad. Shit. Yeah,

892
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:16,280
Speaker 4: there's a lot of history.

893
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 2: You're ignoring here. The intellectual underpinnings of the abolitionist movement

894
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 2: have a history that itself goes back centuries, and we'd

895
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 2: have to discuss everything from the Quakers to the French

896
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:29,440
Speaker 2: Revolution and the Scottish Enlightenment to addically address all of that.

897
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 2: But what we're talking about specifically is not kind of

898
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 2: the ideologies that led people, small groups and individuals to

899
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:39,560
Speaker 2: believe slavery was wrong, as much as how a small

900
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:42,280
Speaker 2: number of those people came together to create a massive

901
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 2: movement that actually ended this horrible, horrible institution. Right, and

902
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 2: that story starts. If you're looking for what the best

903
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:54,920
Speaker 2: origin point for how that movement came together, it starts

904
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:58,240
Speaker 2: due to events that transpired on a specific slave ship

905
00:45:58,360 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 2: near the end of seventeen eighty one.

906
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:00,279
Speaker 1: One.

907
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:02,839
Speaker 2: Right, we're going to tell the story of a ship

908
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:07,320
Speaker 2: called the Song or the Zork. There's both names are fine. Actually, technically,

909
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 2: have you ever heard of this boat?

910
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 4: No?

911
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:09,799
Speaker 5: Haven't.

912
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:12,160
Speaker 4: Actually I'm excited to learn more about his boat. Love

913
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:12,880
Speaker 4: a boat story.

914
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:15,480
Speaker 2: It is a good boat story. It's a there's a

915
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:16,200
Speaker 2: very good book.

916
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:23,360
Speaker 4: I love a good boat.

917
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:25,919
Speaker 2: You're not beating the British allegations.

918
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:32,279
Speaker 4: So that's my epigenetic expression of loving boats. Yeah, it's

919
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:37,400
Speaker 4: it's t love a boat story, boats, cricket about cricket.

920
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:39,840
Speaker 2: I've got a friend who comes from like the Martha's

921
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:41,920
Speaker 2: Vineyard area, and I was like, so you're you're in

922
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 2: the boats, right, And she was like, first off, that's

923
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:48,600
Speaker 2: really like you can't just assume everyone from Martha's Vineyard

924
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:50,759
Speaker 2: has a boat. But yeah, my dad is building me

925
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 2: a boat.

926
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:58,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, as it has. Yeah, boats, kinds of good

927
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:04,239
Speaker 4: stories about boats. Pirates, people's boats.

928
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:09,239
Speaker 2: Mmm, that pirate radio station and the movie Pirate Radio. Yeah,

929
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:12,319
Speaker 2: it's not based on those were British oil rig.

930
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:14,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it oil.

931
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:15,120
Speaker 2: Rig at some point I forget.

932
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, Pirate Radio gave us like punk music and sca music, right,

933
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:19,759
Speaker 4: which is you.

934
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:20,840
Speaker 2: Know, exactly exactly.

935
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:23,640
Speaker 4: It's why I am the way I am.

936
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:27,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why I try to take might take my

937
00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:31,239
Speaker 2: savings and invest in a scar boat cruise, you know,

938
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 2: scars and sailing together again.

939
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:37,239
Speaker 4: At last, I've just thought about the Little Domino meme.

940
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 4: And at the bottom end, it's like, you know, somebody

941
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:41,840
Speaker 4: starts broadcasting from an oil rig in the Atlantic, and

942
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:44,680
Speaker 4: the top it's the Mighty Bostones release a memorial song

943
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:49,239
Speaker 4: for George Floyd. Okay, now I'm now you're thinking it's

944
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:51,520
Speaker 4: like a bad idea. Now I'm no longer. Now I'm

945
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 4: no longer so into boats. Yeah, not quite at pete

946
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:56,359
Speaker 4: hexth level.

947
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:58,880
Speaker 2: But no, no, no, not yet. And there's there's a

948
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 2: couple of good books. There's this book called The Song

949
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:02,960
Speaker 2: and there's another book that came up more recently called

950
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:05,440
Speaker 2: The Zorg. I haven't read the first one. I read

951
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 2: The Zorg. It's a very good book that's by Sidharth Karra,

952
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:12,320
Speaker 2: and I do recommend it. That'll be a big source

953
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:15,960
Speaker 2: for this episode, in particular, we'll have some quotes from it. Elsewhere.

954
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 2: But the story of this boat begins with the story

955
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:22,560
Speaker 2: of a slaver, a guy named Robert Stubbs. By seventeen

956
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:26,239
Speaker 2: eighty one. Stubbs was an experienced slave trader, albeit an

957
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:29,399
Speaker 2: unlucky one. His first recorded journey was his first mate

958
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:32,320
Speaker 2: on a ship called the Black Joke, which he abandoned

959
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:34,520
Speaker 2: within months of taking the job due to having.

960
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:39,319
Speaker 4: When I found the fucking name out, like, yeah, yeah,

961
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:43,960
Speaker 4: that a great name. Yeah, he can come up with

962
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:46,319
Speaker 4: a one of all the other words been taken.

963
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:51,680
Speaker 2: Nope, nope, nope, just just the Black Joke. Yeah. He

964
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:55,400
Speaker 2: testified in defense of the vessel's owner against the captain

965
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 2: during a subsequent lawsuit because the voyage does not go well.

966
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:01,040
Speaker 2: And this is what starts as career, because even though

967
00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:04,080
Speaker 2: he had abandoned the ship, because he helps the vessel's

968
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 2: owner out by testifying, he gets made captain of the

969
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:09,879
Speaker 2: Black Joke the next year. Right, so a year later

970
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:11,719
Speaker 2: he's a captain of the boat that he had abandoned,

971
00:49:11,719 --> 00:49:13,920
Speaker 2: and under his command, the ship takes on two hundred

972
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:17,920
Speaker 2: and thirty enslaved people in Barbados. But or sorry, it

973
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:20,560
Speaker 2: takes on two hundred thirty slaves and tries to take

974
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:23,040
Speaker 2: them to Barbados, but it was captured by the French

975
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:25,560
Speaker 2: before it could, like you know, it could make any

976
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:27,719
Speaker 2: money off of that, right, So he's become slaves the

977
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:31,000
Speaker 2: French get to profit off of. Two years later, stubbs

978
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:33,520
Speaker 2: captain's a slaver that makes it to Virginia, so he

979
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:37,120
Speaker 2: has a successful voyage. Finally, his third voyage in seventeen

980
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:40,400
Speaker 2: sixty sees him captured yet again by a French privateer,

981
00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:43,040
Speaker 2: and then he's captured a third time the next year.

982
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:48,719
Speaker 2: So Jesus five voyages. He's abandoned ship once, been captured

983
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:51,400
Speaker 2: three times and had one successful trade.

984
00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:51,680
Speaker 1: Yeah.

985
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:56,319
Speaker 4: Yeah, Stubbsy isn't really delivering on the investment the best.

986
00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 2: Yeah all, Stubsy's not the best.

987
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:03,360
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, just thinking like you know, you're you're a younger,

988
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:05,319
Speaker 4: want to be boat person, and then you find out

989
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:06,600
Speaker 4: you're going to be on the stubs voat.

990
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:08,319
Speaker 2: It's going to be got to be a rough yeah.

991
00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:11,319
Speaker 2: Ah fuck, he guess a bit of brush up on

992
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:11,880
Speaker 2: my French.

993
00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:16,560
Speaker 4: I'm sure everyone's got like one of those blue and

994
00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:19,560
Speaker 4: white striped shirts underneath their like English red jacket, you know,

995
00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:22,800
Speaker 4: just for when the moment rises, just gotta get ready

996
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:23,880
Speaker 4: to change ownership.

997
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:27,720
Speaker 2: So given his history, it's not surprising that by seventeen

998
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:30,040
Speaker 2: sixty five, old Stubbs he could not get hired to

999
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:33,000
Speaker 2: clean the privies on a sailing vessel, so he takes

1000
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:35,319
Speaker 2: the money he has had. He does have two successful

1001
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 2: trips after this, but his failure to success rate is

1002
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:42,080
Speaker 2: high enough that he has trouble getting anyone to take

1003
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:44,239
Speaker 2: a bet on him. So he takes the money that

1004
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:46,800
Speaker 2: he's made and he starts working as a ship's broker

1005
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:49,400
Speaker 2: in London, and that basically he is buying goods to

1006
00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:52,239
Speaker 2: sell on merchant vessels and then taking his profits and

1007
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:54,680
Speaker 2: investing in slave ships so that he gets a profit

1008
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:57,000
Speaker 2: off of like whatever they make when they sell the

1009
00:50:57,040 --> 00:50:58,359
Speaker 2: people that they're going to take.

1010
00:50:58,520 --> 00:50:58,719
Speaker 4: Right.

1011
00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:01,719
Speaker 2: He's not good at this, and he declares bankruptcy in

1012
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:05,160
Speaker 2: seventeen seventy one. Now, somewhere in between, during this whole

1013
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:07,440
Speaker 2: period where he's failing at being a captain and then

1014
00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:11,280
Speaker 2: failing it being an investor in slave ships, he starts

1015
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:13,680
Speaker 2: a family and has six children who he is not

1016
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:16,759
Speaker 2: in the least but interested in raising or caring for.

1017
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:19,160
Speaker 4: It's a bit of a bit of a bad dude.

1018
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:23,480
Speaker 4: He's not a good man. He's a slave captain thing.

1019
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:26,440
Speaker 4: That's yeah.

1020
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:30,240
Speaker 3: Stubbsy said fuck them kids, yeah, fuck.

1021
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:33,440
Speaker 2: Them kids now, in order to provide for his family

1022
00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:35,719
Speaker 2: while being as far away from them as possible. At

1023
00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:37,880
Speaker 2: the end of seventeen seventy nine, he applies for a

1024
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:41,400
Speaker 2: job as a governor with the CMTA, or the Company

1025
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:45,160
Speaker 2: of Merchants Trading to Africa. This is the corporation because

1026
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:49,120
Speaker 2: slavery is a capitalist enterprise, right in the very literal

1027
00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:52,320
Speaker 2: sense of the word. It is a corporation, a chartered

1028
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:55,439
Speaker 2: corporation that is managing the logistics of the Atlantic slave

1029
00:51:55,480 --> 00:51:58,319
Speaker 2: trade for the British Empire, right because corporations are just

1030
00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:04,080
Speaker 2: more efficient than governments. Now, we don't know why. As

1031
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:08,440
Speaker 2: evidence that they're more efficient, they made Stubs a governor. Great,

1032
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:10,239
Speaker 2: it didn't have background checks.

1033
00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:11,560
Speaker 4: I don't know why.

1034
00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:14,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems like I think it's that he had

1035
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:16,839
Speaker 2: friends in the company and he was a really good

1036
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:18,719
Speaker 2: ass kisser. One of the things you see from it

1037
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:22,040
Speaker 2: is that he is very charming to certain kinds of idiot,

1038
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:24,480
Speaker 2: and I think he just talks his way into the

1039
00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:25,799
Speaker 2: shop by licking.

1040
00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:29,200
Speaker 3: Boots I want to go And are we sure he

1041
00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:32,120
Speaker 3: didn't want to go into government politics.

1042
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:35,040
Speaker 2: Uh no, no, not at all. He wants to be

1043
00:52:35,239 --> 00:52:37,880
Speaker 2: a slave governor. He wants to be the governor of

1044
00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:39,520
Speaker 2: one of these slave forts. You know, we talked about

1045
00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:42,279
Speaker 2: Elmina at the start of the episode. There's more by you,

1046
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:45,560
Speaker 2: and one of them that the British is operating is

1047
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:49,200
Speaker 2: a fort called Animebu on the Gold coast, right, and

1048
00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:51,759
Speaker 2: that's what he's governing. He's not governing like a colony.

1049
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:53,920
Speaker 2: He's governing a slave castle.

1050
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:57,280
Speaker 3: They were like, well, you're really great at abandoning the ship,

1051
00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:01,440
Speaker 3: and he's like yeah, He's like you said, I was

1052
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:03,880
Speaker 3: abandoning the ship, but I was going down with it.

1053
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:06,040
Speaker 4: What do you mean? Yeah, that was a joke.

1054
00:53:06,239 --> 00:53:07,560
Speaker 3: That was a joke for the girlies.

1055
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:08,200
Speaker 6: You're welcome.

1056
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:11,000
Speaker 3: Oh okay, that one over both of your head.

1057
00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:15,440
Speaker 2: It sure did, Sophie, Yeah, no, beautiful. The bit I

1058
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:17,960
Speaker 2: would make is that they looked at how he's raising

1059
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:20,200
Speaker 2: his family and they're like, look, Stubs, you're graded at

1060
00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:23,880
Speaker 2: abandoning your kids. Can you abandon a bunch of enslaved

1061
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:25,799
Speaker 2: African people to a fate worse than death?

1062
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 4: Too?

1063
00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:29,400
Speaker 2: Is that something you'd be good at, and Stubbs said absolutely.

1064
00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:32,560
Speaker 3: He's like, honey, where do I sign?

1065
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:37,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is a perfect job for him. Yeah,

1066
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:39,759
Speaker 2: he can profit from the slave trade and he has

1067
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:43,520
Speaker 2: very little personal risk. Right theoretically, if he wasn't a

1068
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:47,719
Speaker 2: giant asshole, he'd have very little personal risk. But as

1069
00:53:47,719 --> 00:53:50,080
Speaker 2: said Hearth Kara writes in the Zorg, things started to

1070
00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:53,359
Speaker 2: go wrong as soon as Stubs departed England. Quote from

1071
00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:56,840
Speaker 2: the moment the ship departed England, Captain Lewin reported vexation

1072
00:53:56,960 --> 00:53:59,880
Speaker 2: often arising between me and my passengers, occasioned by malicious

1073
00:53:59,880 --> 00:54:03,040
Speaker 2: and information and other base insinuations, all of which were

1074
00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:06,160
Speaker 2: spread by Robert Stubbs. Stubbs directed much of his ire

1075
00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:09,160
Speaker 2: towards one of his fellows CMTA officials, Stuart Beard. He

1076
00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:11,720
Speaker 2: accused Beard of destroying the ship's stores and of hurting

1077
00:54:11,719 --> 00:54:15,239
Speaker 2: his son by tying his legs together. Lewin investigated the

1078
00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:18,600
Speaker 2: accusations and concluded them to be false and ill grounded.

1079
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:21,239
Speaker 2: And by the way, he's brought his twelve year old

1080
00:54:21,239 --> 00:54:26,680
Speaker 2: boy with him, that's the sun he's accusing this guy.

1081
00:54:28,239 --> 00:54:30,239
Speaker 2: Stubbs then accused Beard of being a pimp and a

1082
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:33,080
Speaker 2: body house and that he and John Roberts were highway robbers.

1083
00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:35,120
Speaker 2: To top it off, Stubbs accused Roberts of trying to

1084
00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:37,560
Speaker 2: breed a mutiny, which Lewin also found to be an

1085
00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:41,399
Speaker 2: ill designed falsehood. The bickering, discord and wild accusations led

1086
00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:44,600
Speaker 2: Captain Lewin to describe Stubbs as a wicked and treacherous character.

1087
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:47,920
Speaker 2: Another official on the ship was said Stubbs was inclined

1088
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:51,280
Speaker 2: towards malice and wicked enough to say what he cannot justify.

1089
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:55,040
Speaker 2: So again, these guys are all slave traders, and they're like,

1090
00:54:55,160 --> 00:55:01,520
Speaker 2: this dude's a fucking dick, an asshole, among the worst

1091
00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:04,239
Speaker 2: people in history. It's like when other billionaires are like

1092
00:55:04,239 --> 00:55:06,040
Speaker 2: Elon Musk, what a fucking.

1093
00:55:05,719 --> 00:55:08,640
Speaker 4: Prap, what's wrong with that? Dude? Yeah?

1094
00:55:08,719 --> 00:55:11,240
Speaker 2: You really have to be on another level of asshole.

1095
00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:11,719
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1096
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:13,799
Speaker 2: Now is noted in that above passage. They said he

1097
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:16,480
Speaker 2: brought his son, his twelve year old boy, George, on

1098
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:19,720
Speaker 2: the trip with him, and this was not normal. Kara

1099
00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:23,040
Speaker 2: notes that there are no records of any other governor

1100
00:55:23,080 --> 00:55:25,960
Speaker 2: bringing a child that young to Africa with him. In fact,

1101
00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:28,840
Speaker 2: what Stubbs did was so weird that the company puts

1102
00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:31,760
Speaker 2: rules in place to ban any other officials from bringing

1103
00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:33,560
Speaker 2: kids under fifteen with them in the future.

1104
00:55:33,560 --> 00:55:36,160
Speaker 4: They're what is he doing a twelve year old?

1105
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:39,560
Speaker 3: Do we know why?

1106
00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:45,719
Speaker 4: Yes, yes we do, Sophie say. As soon as they reach.

1107
00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:48,960
Speaker 2: The fort, he gives his son, George, a job working

1108
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:51,600
Speaker 2: for the fort as like a copywriter, I think. But

1109
00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:54,640
Speaker 2: he's like keeping a track of accounts or something, and

1110
00:55:54,680 --> 00:55:58,279
Speaker 2: he pockets his son's salary. That's why he brought his kid,

1111
00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:04,320
Speaker 2: so that could make him he's kind of year old child.

1112
00:56:06,239 --> 00:56:08,600
Speaker 4: He's got one move and it's yeah.

1113
00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:12,160
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, that takes fuck them kids to another level.

1114
00:56:12,239 --> 00:56:13,720
Speaker 4: Oh, it's so funny.

1115
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:16,800
Speaker 2: And the thing is, George is not even making much money.

1116
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:19,080
Speaker 2: He's getting about eighty pounds a year equivalent to less

1117
00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:22,680
Speaker 2: than twenty five thousand dollars a year, and his fucking

1118
00:56:23,080 --> 00:56:25,520
Speaker 2: Stubbs is a governor. He's making better money than that.

1119
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:26,719
Speaker 2: Like he's just like.

1120
00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:28,719
Speaker 4: He just likes to do it. He just loves to

1121
00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:29,879
Speaker 4: abuse a child.

1122
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:36,000
Speaker 2: The love of the game. Yeah wow, Yeah, So it

1123
00:56:36,080 --> 00:56:39,440
Speaker 2: becomes increasingly clear that all this guy cares about is money.

1124
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:41,680
Speaker 2: He's not interested in his kid, and he's not interested

1125
00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:43,480
Speaker 2: in the other human beings around him, and he's going

1126
00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:46,640
Speaker 2: to treat them like shit. As soon as he arrives,

1127
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:49,319
Speaker 2: Stubbs accuses his second in command at the Fort of

1128
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:52,200
Speaker 2: theft and fires him, and then promotes his son to

1129
00:56:52,239 --> 00:56:54,680
Speaker 2: the job, which raises his son sound. He writes about

1130
00:56:54,680 --> 00:56:57,560
Speaker 2: one hundred and twenty pounds a year, which Stubs pockets.

1131
00:56:57,840 --> 00:57:01,279
Speaker 4: Jesus Christ brought the other five kids.

1132
00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:02,439
Speaker 2: You'd really be making bank.

1133
00:57:02,719 --> 00:57:05,320
Speaker 4: I can have the mold out that bombing. Yeah.

1134
00:57:05,880 --> 00:57:09,200
Speaker 2: Now, outside of this, he refuses to do the actual job.

1135
00:57:09,280 --> 00:57:12,000
Speaker 2: He calls in sick whenever he has meetings to attend,

1136
00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:14,719
Speaker 2: and he uses public supplies meant to provide for the

1137
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:17,240
Speaker 2: fort to trade for slaves that he then sells for

1138
00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:19,960
Speaker 2: his personal profits. Try to do.

1139
00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:26,320
Speaker 4: He sucks so fat sucks. He's one of the shittiest

1140
00:57:26,360 --> 00:57:27,720
Speaker 4: people we've ever I know.

1141
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:30,520
Speaker 2: This is like our reverse episodes about this guy was

1142
00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:35,800
Speaker 2: getting the heroes. But this guy sucks so hard. He

1143
00:57:35,880 --> 00:57:39,160
Speaker 2: may be the shittiest slave captain of all of the

1144
00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:42,680
Speaker 2: slave captains, which is a high ball. It's a high

1145
00:57:42,720 --> 00:57:45,000
Speaker 2: They're all shitty. But I think it's the mix of

1146
00:57:45,040 --> 00:57:47,760
Speaker 2: being actually bad at the job and also being willing

1147
00:57:47,800 --> 00:57:50,880
Speaker 2: to casually kind of enslave his own twelve year old son.

1148
00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:54,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, for a mild profit.

1149
00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:55,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll do it.

1150
00:57:57,720 --> 00:58:01,120
Speaker 2: So when he does, and he does not like actually work,

1151
00:58:01,200 --> 00:58:03,200
Speaker 2: he kind of refuses to do his job. He calls

1152
00:58:03,240 --> 00:58:05,919
Speaker 2: in sick whenever he has meetings to attend. So when

1153
00:58:05,920 --> 00:58:08,080
Speaker 2: he does try to do his job, it becomes clear

1154
00:58:08,160 --> 00:58:11,440
Speaker 2: to his subordinates that he can't read or write. In fact,

1155
00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:15,080
Speaker 2: his letters that he sends subordinates are so badly written

1156
00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:17,760
Speaker 2: that they become like a currency. People are trading them

1157
00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:19,680
Speaker 2: in the fort because they're funny.

1158
00:58:19,600 --> 00:58:23,520
Speaker 4: They're such a scats. Can't even read.

1159
00:58:24,040 --> 00:58:31,560
Speaker 2: Jesus, Wow, it's from a tribe that Rantaine written down otherwise, Yeah,

1160
00:58:31,640 --> 00:58:34,160
Speaker 2: if he could, if if he could actually write the

1161
00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:36,360
Speaker 2: local tribe that ran things in it. Because the British

1162
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:39,000
Speaker 2: have a small presence here, they are mostly reliant upon

1163
00:58:39,120 --> 00:58:41,600
Speaker 2: local allies, as is generally the case with the British

1164
00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:43,880
Speaker 2: Empire to do things, and the local tribe that is

1165
00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:47,560
Speaker 2: largely running things around the fort are the fonte Right

1166
00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:50,800
Speaker 2: and the British slavers are dependent on these people, both

1167
00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:53,440
Speaker 2: for the regular supply of slaves and for the raw materials,

1168
00:58:53,480 --> 00:58:55,160
Speaker 2: the food and whatnot that they need. To keep the

1169
00:58:55,160 --> 00:58:58,200
Speaker 2: fort operational and to stalk the ships. Ships come into

1170
00:58:58,240 --> 00:59:00,800
Speaker 2: port to offload goods that are going to be traded

1171
00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:03,760
Speaker 2: to Africans and to take and slaved Africans. But they

1172
00:59:03,800 --> 00:59:05,720
Speaker 2: need like food and water and stuff, right, and the

1173
00:59:05,720 --> 00:59:08,800
Speaker 2: fonte are a crucial part of that too. And so

1174
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:11,680
Speaker 2: everyone else who has this job is very nice to

1175
00:59:11,720 --> 00:59:15,680
Speaker 2: these people because they outnumber you, and you've given them guns,

1176
00:59:16,240 --> 00:59:18,400
Speaker 2: and you reliant on them for food.

1177
00:59:18,600 --> 00:59:21,400
Speaker 4: You can see why this is going reven It's just

1178
00:59:21,400 --> 00:59:23,040
Speaker 4: a bad idea to piss them off.

1179
00:59:23,400 --> 00:59:27,160
Speaker 2: Stubbs refuses to treat them with respect, and for no reason,

1180
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:29,200
Speaker 2: like they had. One of the things the fort would

1181
00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:31,480
Speaker 2: do is they would regularly, like once a week, I think,

1182
00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:34,400
Speaker 2: give out alcohol to these people. It's like a it's

1183
00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:37,120
Speaker 2: like a good will thing, right, here's some liquor. Keep

1184
00:59:37,160 --> 00:59:39,960
Speaker 2: being our friends, you know. Stubbs just stops this, I

1185
00:59:40,040 --> 00:59:43,240
Speaker 2: think because he wants to sell the alcohol for himself,

1186
00:59:43,680 --> 00:59:46,800
Speaker 2: and when they complain he threatens them with armed men.

1187
00:59:47,840 --> 00:59:53,760
Speaker 4: Wow stuff. Yeah, at least he's very bad at being evil.

1188
00:59:54,600 --> 00:59:58,360
Speaker 2: He sucks so bad at this now. I think part

1189
00:59:58,360 --> 01:00:00,360
Speaker 2: of what's happening here is that he's so raised. He

1190
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:03,360
Speaker 2: can't even deal respectfully with the Africans that his entire

1191
01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:06,560
Speaker 2: life in business depends on. Right, which most of these

1192
01:00:06,760 --> 01:00:09,440
Speaker 2: other slavers are. They're perfectly willing to be nice to

1193
01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:13,520
Speaker 2: these guys because they need them. Yeah right, we've sold

1194
01:00:13,520 --> 01:00:19,920
Speaker 2: them guns. I can't emphasise enough. We've sold them guns.

1195
01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:22,760
Speaker 2: In October of seventeen eighty, Stubbs has a meeting with

1196
01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:26,120
Speaker 2: an emissary of the King of the Ashanti Empire and

1197
01:00:26,160 --> 01:00:29,240
Speaker 2: that this empire is the greatest power in the region

1198
01:00:29,360 --> 01:00:31,440
Speaker 2: and they are the people upon whom British trade in

1199
01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:34,880
Speaker 2: West Africa is most dependent. Right, you really need these

1200
01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:37,120
Speaker 2: folks in your corner if you're not going to deal

1201
01:00:37,160 --> 01:00:40,280
Speaker 2: with some serious problems. And Stubbs is supposed to preside

1202
01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:43,600
Speaker 2: over the signing of a treaty with the Ashanti. After

1203
01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:46,000
Speaker 2: signing the treaty, it was his job to give gifts

1204
01:00:46,040 --> 01:00:48,520
Speaker 2: that King George the Third had sent over for the

1205
01:00:48,640 --> 01:00:49,600
Speaker 2: King of the Empire.

1206
01:00:49,720 --> 01:00:51,240
Speaker 4: Right, Can I guess what happened?

1207
01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:56,160
Speaker 2: He keeps the gifts.

1208
01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:56,160
Speaker 4: That's exactly. It was like.

1209
01:00:56,200 --> 01:01:02,960
Speaker 3: I was like, nobody has one somebody, Yeah, he his

1210
01:01:03,000 --> 01:01:06,000
Speaker 3: one move steal things and less slaves.

1211
01:01:06,120 --> 01:01:08,479
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, get captured by the friend.

1212
01:01:08,640 --> 01:01:11,240
Speaker 2: I guess this is yeah, I guess he has another move.

1213
01:01:11,520 --> 01:01:14,080
Speaker 2: This spells the end of his career as governor. He

1214
01:01:14,240 --> 01:01:17,200
Speaker 2: was deposed violently and robbed of most of his ill

1215
01:01:17,240 --> 01:01:20,400
Speaker 2: gotten possessions, like the other white people don't even wait

1216
01:01:20,480 --> 01:01:22,400
Speaker 2: to get the order to depose him, like we got

1217
01:01:22,440 --> 01:01:25,680
Speaker 2: to get this guy out him immediately, like we're in danger.

1218
01:01:25,800 --> 01:01:28,840
Speaker 2: Now he's kissing off like there's so many more of

1219
01:01:28,880 --> 01:01:33,680
Speaker 2: them than us. And again they have guns, you know. Yeah,

1220
01:01:33,720 --> 01:01:35,880
Speaker 2: So they they depose him, They lock him in a cell.

1221
01:01:35,960 --> 01:01:38,280
Speaker 2: They take all of his ill gotten gains, which includes

1222
01:01:38,320 --> 01:01:40,960
Speaker 2: a bunch of gold that he'd put together based on

1223
01:01:41,160 --> 01:01:44,680
Speaker 2: his fraudulent transactions, about one hundred and five thousand dollars

1224
01:01:44,680 --> 01:01:47,760
Speaker 2: in modern money worth of gold. And Stubbs is furious

1225
01:01:48,040 --> 01:01:50,400
Speaker 2: both that he has been deposed as governor and that

1226
01:01:50,440 --> 01:01:52,160
Speaker 2: they took his money. And he keeps being like, at

1227
01:01:52,240 --> 01:01:53,720
Speaker 2: least give me my money back, and they're like.

1228
01:01:53,720 --> 01:01:57,520
Speaker 4: No, he stole that shit. Yeah, he stole out of it.

1229
01:01:58,720 --> 01:02:02,600
Speaker 2: Luckily for Stubs, a slaving vessel named the William arrives

1230
01:02:02,640 --> 01:02:05,720
Speaker 2: at the fort not long after he gets taken into custody,

1231
01:02:06,080 --> 01:02:08,960
Speaker 2: and you know, they the crew of the boat goes

1232
01:02:09,240 --> 01:02:11,960
Speaker 2: into the fort and one of the members of the

1233
01:02:12,000 --> 01:02:14,320
Speaker 2: crew was a high ranking crew member, the ship's surgeon,

1234
01:02:14,320 --> 01:02:18,520
Speaker 2: a guy named Luke Collings would meet Stubbs, and again

1235
01:02:18,640 --> 01:02:21,600
Speaker 2: Stubbs just has some sort of charm for a certain

1236
01:02:21,720 --> 01:02:25,960
Speaker 2: kind of person, because within it sounds like hours, maybe

1237
01:02:26,040 --> 01:02:30,000
Speaker 2: days of meeting Stubbs, Collingswood is so charmed that he

1238
01:02:30,040 --> 01:02:32,040
Speaker 2: convinces the captain, we got to take this guy back

1239
01:02:32,080 --> 01:02:35,600
Speaker 2: with us as a passenger to England, right like, we

1240
01:02:35,680 --> 01:02:37,280
Speaker 2: got to put him on the boat with us, you know,

1241
01:02:37,440 --> 01:02:39,840
Speaker 2: get him out of here. He's being unfairly treated. It's

1242
01:02:39,840 --> 01:02:42,200
Speaker 2: a bad situation for him.

1243
01:02:42,560 --> 01:02:44,360
Speaker 4: If there's one human being at that time you don't

1244
01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:47,640
Speaker 4: want on your slave vessel, surely it's Stubbs. Absolutely not

1245
01:02:47,920 --> 01:02:52,760
Speaker 4: the last man. Very poor. Yeah.

1246
01:02:53,040 --> 01:02:55,200
Speaker 2: So and again he's just gotta this is gonna be

1247
01:02:55,240 --> 01:02:58,000
Speaker 2: the He's got to continue having like the worst record

1248
01:02:58,040 --> 01:03:01,880
Speaker 2: on a boat. Now. I think he probably Stubbs probably

1249
01:03:01,920 --> 01:03:04,240
Speaker 2: promises Collings with some of his money that he's totally

1250
01:03:04,280 --> 01:03:06,200
Speaker 2: going to get back. I don't know what they say,

1251
01:03:06,200 --> 01:03:08,200
Speaker 2: but Stubbs' his plan seems to have been get on

1252
01:03:08,280 --> 01:03:11,640
Speaker 2: this boat, get back to London, and then fight in

1253
01:03:11,760 --> 01:03:14,600
Speaker 2: court to have his gold returned and ideally have himself

1254
01:03:14,640 --> 01:03:17,720
Speaker 2: reappointed as governor of the fort, which is totally.

1255
01:03:17,320 --> 01:03:20,480
Speaker 4: Going to happen. You know. Yeah, we's George.

1256
01:03:20,680 --> 01:03:23,920
Speaker 2: He stole from two Kings.

1257
01:03:23,960 --> 01:03:28,880
Speaker 4: Describe what's happened to George is little George on the

1258
01:03:28,880 --> 01:03:31,040
Speaker 4: boat like great, great, great great guard.

1259
01:03:31,600 --> 01:03:35,520
Speaker 2: You would think, you would think hell Stubbsy departing the

1260
01:03:35,520 --> 01:03:38,360
Speaker 2: fort where he had been imprisoned, would take his twelve

1261
01:03:38,440 --> 01:03:42,800
Speaker 2: year old with him. He does not, and we don't

1262
01:03:42,880 --> 01:03:44,760
Speaker 2: know what then the twelve year old.

1263
01:03:45,080 --> 01:03:47,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, he abandons his twelve year old.

1264
01:03:47,360 --> 01:03:52,680
Speaker 2: That's the fort, never sees him again, never writes about it,

1265
01:03:53,280 --> 01:03:56,840
Speaker 2: says nothing to anyone about why he's left this kid behind,

1266
01:03:56,920 --> 01:03:58,560
Speaker 2: as far as we know, doesn't even explain it to

1267
01:03:58,600 --> 01:04:03,280
Speaker 2: his wife, just just forgets he has a son. God,

1268
01:04:04,160 --> 01:04:07,880
Speaker 2: cool guy, I guess optimistic. Maybe George is like, fuck, no,

1269
01:04:07,920 --> 01:04:09,120
Speaker 2: I'm not getting on a boat with you.

1270
01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:13,040
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah, hopefully George, I would love to be

1271
01:04:13,040 --> 01:04:16,120
Speaker 4: on enough continent from my father. Yes, I'm hoping.

1272
01:04:18,040 --> 01:04:20,080
Speaker 2: Maybe the guys who overthrew his dad were like, hey, George,

1273
01:04:20,080 --> 01:04:21,440
Speaker 2: we've got no issue with you. Do you want to

1274
01:04:21,440 --> 01:04:24,440
Speaker 2: actually get paid for working? Because we can do that.

1275
01:04:24,600 --> 01:04:27,000
Speaker 2: You can just make money to have a job. And

1276
01:04:27,040 --> 01:04:31,320
Speaker 2: he's like, what really, really, that's an option that was

1277
01:04:31,760 --> 01:04:34,600
Speaker 2: my dad told me was illegal for kids to make money,

1278
01:04:35,520 --> 01:04:39,320
Speaker 2: goes on an apology tour and recovers the stubs name

1279
01:04:39,360 --> 01:04:42,240
Speaker 2: maybe so elsewhere kind of at the same period of time,

1280
01:04:42,320 --> 01:04:46,360
Speaker 2: Stubbsy's being deposed as governor a British privateer, right, because

1281
01:04:46,360 --> 01:04:48,520
Speaker 2: the British are fighting the Dutch. They've got a war

1282
01:04:48,880 --> 01:04:51,320
Speaker 2: going on of some sort, and you know, one of

1283
01:04:51,320 --> 01:04:55,960
Speaker 2: the things that happens is they start the government starts

1284
01:04:56,040 --> 01:04:59,440
Speaker 2: giving you know, licenses to privateers, which are private boats

1285
01:04:59,480 --> 01:05:02,240
Speaker 2: that are bas pirates that are endorsed by the government. Right,

1286
01:05:02,440 --> 01:05:05,040
Speaker 2: And one of these privateers in the area succeeds in

1287
01:05:05,120 --> 01:05:08,200
Speaker 2: capturing a couple of different Dutch vessels around the same time.

1288
01:05:08,240 --> 01:05:11,000
Speaker 2: These are Dutch like slaving ships mostly, and one of

1289
01:05:11,000 --> 01:05:14,520
Speaker 2: them is a slave ship called the Zong or the Zorg,

1290
01:05:15,120 --> 01:05:17,200
Speaker 2: depending on the source. You'll see a bunch of different

1291
01:05:17,240 --> 01:05:19,720
Speaker 2: names attributed to this boat. I think the Zong is

1292
01:05:19,720 --> 01:05:21,360
Speaker 2: the one you generally see, and I think that's what

1293
01:05:21,400 --> 01:05:24,160
Speaker 2: the British called it once they took it over. The Zork,

1294
01:05:24,320 --> 01:05:29,560
Speaker 2: z O r Que is also common, but Sidhartha uses

1295
01:05:29,560 --> 01:05:33,080
Speaker 2: the Zorg, which I think is its original name, So

1296
01:05:33,120 --> 01:05:35,560
Speaker 2: that's what I'll generally be calling it throughout these episodes,

1297
01:05:35,560 --> 01:05:38,280
Speaker 2: even though again you're not wrong calling it the Zong,

1298
01:05:38,840 --> 01:05:42,400
Speaker 2: and the name Zorg itself is Dutch. It means care.

1299
01:05:42,760 --> 01:05:44,520
Speaker 2: I don't know why that name was picked for a

1300
01:05:44,560 --> 01:05:49,800
Speaker 2: slave lationship. Seems like not a well fitting name, but okay, Uh.

1301
01:05:50,480 --> 01:05:53,960
Speaker 2: The owner of the Williams so this gets taken by privateers,

1302
01:05:54,000 --> 01:05:56,800
Speaker 2: and this, you know, this privateer with all these Dutch

1303
01:05:56,800 --> 01:05:59,080
Speaker 2: ship ships he's captured in tow kind of shows up

1304
01:05:59,120 --> 01:06:01,880
Speaker 2: at the port when the william is at port taking

1305
01:06:01,920 --> 01:06:04,680
Speaker 2: on slaves. And the owner of the William who's a

1306
01:06:04,720 --> 01:06:08,000
Speaker 2: representative of this syndicate, the Gregson Syndicate. So the Gregson

1307
01:06:08,040 --> 01:06:12,040
Speaker 2: Syndicate is basically a major slave owning a trading company, right,

1308
01:06:12,640 --> 01:06:16,760
Speaker 2: And the captain of the boat is like, well, I've

1309
01:06:16,800 --> 01:06:20,120
Speaker 2: got some petty cash here. If I buy the Zorg

1310
01:06:20,160 --> 01:06:23,880
Speaker 2: at auction, I can take even more slaves back and

1311
01:06:23,920 --> 01:06:26,440
Speaker 2: basically double the profitability of this voyage. And I'll just

1312
01:06:26,480 --> 01:06:28,640
Speaker 2: throw some of my crew. I'll put a skeleton crew

1313
01:06:28,680 --> 01:06:31,960
Speaker 2: on the Zorg from the William, and we can take

1314
01:06:32,000 --> 01:06:34,400
Speaker 2: even more enslaved people back, right, So that's what happens.

1315
01:06:34,400 --> 01:06:38,000
Speaker 2: He buys the Zorg auction. It was loaded with two

1316
01:06:38,080 --> 01:06:41,480
Speaker 2: hundred and forty four people like enslaved people in the

1317
01:06:41,520 --> 01:06:43,640
Speaker 2: hole in the hold at the time that they buy it,

1318
01:06:45,120 --> 01:06:48,440
Speaker 2: and because they don't have that many sailors, they're kind

1319
01:06:48,480 --> 01:06:50,600
Speaker 2: of just sticking a minimal crew on it, so that

1320
01:06:50,640 --> 01:06:55,320
Speaker 2: the Zorg is not going to be crewed by enough people, right, Like,

1321
01:06:55,440 --> 01:06:58,800
Speaker 2: it's not an ideal load and they don't have like

1322
01:06:59,320 --> 01:07:02,120
Speaker 2: for whatever reas, there is a really the guy who

1323
01:07:02,120 --> 01:07:04,280
Speaker 2: becomes the first mate on the Zorg is a really

1324
01:07:04,320 --> 01:07:07,440
Speaker 2: experienced sailor who's like an excellent navigator and knows how

1325
01:07:07,440 --> 01:07:10,560
Speaker 2: to do everything you'd want into captain. But the captain

1326
01:07:10,600 --> 01:07:15,440
Speaker 2: of the William makes Luke Collingswood, the ship's surgeon, the

1327
01:07:15,480 --> 01:07:19,800
Speaker 2: captain of the Zorg. Right, we don't know why Collingswood

1328
01:07:20,040 --> 01:07:23,120
Speaker 2: is not. He's not good at this. He's actually going

1329
01:07:23,160 --> 01:07:24,920
Speaker 2: to be terrible at this, and there's no reason to

1330
01:07:25,000 --> 01:07:27,760
Speaker 2: think he would have been good at it. He's a doctor.

1331
01:07:28,080 --> 01:07:32,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, he doesn't know rogate for shit, Like, yeah, he's

1332
01:07:32,040 --> 01:07:34,000
Speaker 4: not a particularly good at leadership.

1333
01:07:34,080 --> 01:07:37,080
Speaker 2: You know he's good at cutting into people. You know,

1334
01:07:38,880 --> 01:07:40,920
Speaker 2: I don't even think he's a very good doctor. Right,

1335
01:07:42,000 --> 01:07:45,760
Speaker 2: and he's never captain a vessel before. And again, the

1336
01:07:46,320 --> 01:07:48,959
Speaker 2: first mate that he's put with on this skeleton crew

1337
01:07:49,120 --> 01:07:51,920
Speaker 2: is an experienced seaman and navigator. But the two of

1338
01:07:51,960 --> 01:07:54,479
Speaker 2: a falling out Collingswood does not get along with this guy,

1339
01:07:54,560 --> 01:07:57,080
Speaker 2: and he's confined to quarters for a sizeable chunk of

1340
01:07:57,080 --> 01:08:00,720
Speaker 2: the journey to make Yeah, yeah, yeah, put the guy

1341
01:08:00,720 --> 01:08:03,480
Speaker 2: who knows that to fine stuff in the hole. Yeah,

1342
01:08:03,520 --> 01:08:06,920
Speaker 2: I will work it out to make matters worse. Before

1343
01:08:07,000 --> 01:08:09,280
Speaker 2: leaving the coast of Africa to sale for Jamaica, the

1344
01:08:09,360 --> 01:08:12,760
Speaker 2: Zorg takes on even more enslaved people. The boat was

1345
01:08:12,760 --> 01:08:14,960
Speaker 2: meant to hold a maximum of two hundred and forty

1346
01:08:15,080 --> 01:08:17,960
Speaker 2: slaves in the hold, four hundred and forty two are

1347
01:08:18,040 --> 01:08:21,599
Speaker 2: crammed into the lightless reeking hold as they begin their journey. Right,

1348
01:08:21,680 --> 01:08:25,559
Speaker 2: So this is just everything done to create a worst

1349
01:08:25,560 --> 01:08:28,920
Speaker 2: case scenario. Skeleton crew up top, captain doesn't know what

1350
01:08:28,960 --> 01:08:32,559
Speaker 2: he's doing, only skilled navigators locked in his room. Twice

1351
01:08:32,560 --> 01:08:34,960
Speaker 2: as many people in the hold as you're supposed to have,

1352
01:08:35,120 --> 01:08:37,680
Speaker 2: so everyone's going to be getting sick. There's not going

1353
01:08:37,720 --> 01:08:41,600
Speaker 2: to be enough food and water, right, yeah, great decisions.

1354
01:08:42,040 --> 01:08:45,320
Speaker 4: Illness is going to be everywhere yeaheah yeah. Maybe too

1355
01:08:45,360 --> 01:08:48,120
Speaker 4: heavy also, like it's sitting turn in the water or whatever.

1356
01:08:48,720 --> 01:08:49,559
Speaker 4: Maybe too heavy.

1357
01:08:49,600 --> 01:08:53,440
Speaker 2: It's got to be slower. The ship encounters bad weather immediately,

1358
01:08:53,640 --> 01:08:57,200
Speaker 2: illness spreads rampantly throughout the crew, and the enslaved people

1359
01:08:57,240 --> 01:09:00,519
Speaker 2: in the hold Callings would very quickly get sick. He's

1360
01:09:00,560 --> 01:09:03,560
Speaker 2: going to die ultimately of this. And he is deliriously

1361
01:09:03,680 --> 01:09:06,840
Speaker 2: ill most of the journey, and he's still captain, so

1362
01:09:06,920 --> 01:09:10,000
Speaker 2: he's just fucking up navigating because he's like hallucinating and

1363
01:09:10,040 --> 01:09:12,760
Speaker 2: puking and shitting himself to death while he's trying to

1364
01:09:12,800 --> 01:09:16,440
Speaker 2: like work a sextant and figure out longitude or whatever.

1365
01:09:16,560 --> 01:09:19,080
Speaker 4: Right now.

1366
01:09:19,400 --> 01:09:22,760
Speaker 2: Because he's fucking up, the ship keeps getting lost, and

1367
01:09:22,920 --> 01:09:24,720
Speaker 2: you know, the weather being bad hurts with that, so

1368
01:09:24,760 --> 01:09:28,920
Speaker 2: they're not getting into Jamaican like, it takes months longer

1369
01:09:28,960 --> 01:09:31,400
Speaker 2: than it should have taken. And because there's twice as

1370
01:09:31,439 --> 01:09:34,000
Speaker 2: many people on board as there should, the ship runs

1371
01:09:34,000 --> 01:09:37,040
Speaker 2: out of its stock of dried citrus. Right, it's just

1372
01:09:37,080 --> 01:09:41,680
Speaker 2: what stops you from getting scurvy, So everyone starts getting scurvy,

1373
01:09:41,720 --> 01:09:44,800
Speaker 2: concluding the sailors who are supposed to be manning the.

1374
01:09:44,800 --> 01:09:48,280
Speaker 4: Ship right perfect. Yeah.

1375
01:09:48,680 --> 01:09:51,400
Speaker 2: By November, Collinswood is so ill that he has to

1376
01:09:51,439 --> 01:09:54,160
Speaker 2: step down from command of the vessel, and instead of

1377
01:09:54,280 --> 01:09:56,760
Speaker 2: again appointing the guy who knows how to sail to

1378
01:09:56,880 --> 01:10:01,200
Speaker 2: run a boat, he makes Robert Stubbs the cap hubs

1379
01:10:01,240 --> 01:10:11,519
Speaker 2: his back. He's so the first mate. Kelsol protests, and

1380
01:10:11,560 --> 01:10:14,040
Speaker 2: again one of the last command decisions collins would make

1381
01:10:14,160 --> 01:10:17,040
Speaker 2: is he forces Kelsal to be confined confined to quarters

1382
01:10:17,280 --> 01:10:20,639
Speaker 2: and also orders him to stop updating his log book,

1383
01:10:21,120 --> 01:10:23,439
Speaker 2: which suggests that he and he and like Stubs and

1384
01:10:23,439 --> 01:10:25,360
Speaker 2: colleagues woo don't want a record of what's going to

1385
01:10:25,400 --> 01:10:28,160
Speaker 2: happen next, which suggests that they're kind of pre planning

1386
01:10:28,240 --> 01:10:30,320
Speaker 2: what's going to happen. Actually, we don't really know if

1387
01:10:30,360 --> 01:10:33,120
Speaker 2: that's the case, but it's a weird order to give

1388
01:10:33,200 --> 01:10:37,720
Speaker 2: Kelsol right now. For weeks, the Zorg sails without a

1389
01:10:37,760 --> 01:10:42,080
Speaker 2: real captain, going increasingly off course as the water supplies dwindle.

1390
01:10:42,479 --> 01:10:44,759
Speaker 2: Things get so bad that they have to free Kelsol

1391
01:10:44,800 --> 01:10:47,360
Speaker 2: from confinement because they're like someone who knows what they're

1392
01:10:47,400 --> 01:10:50,680
Speaker 2: doing is we're gonna die. We're literally gonna die. And

1393
01:10:50,720 --> 01:10:52,720
Speaker 2: the crew starts to panic that they're going to run

1394
01:10:52,760 --> 01:10:55,559
Speaker 2: out of water. Right now, they're not actually out of water,

1395
01:10:55,600 --> 01:10:57,479
Speaker 2: they're not even really that on the verge of being

1396
01:10:57,479 --> 01:10:59,840
Speaker 2: out of water, but they have no idea where they are,

1397
01:11:00,040 --> 01:11:02,559
Speaker 2: and water supplies are low, right, and they kind of

1398
01:11:02,560 --> 01:11:04,840
Speaker 2: realize they've got a little less than they thought they had,

1399
01:11:05,160 --> 01:11:08,160
Speaker 2: and so they start panicking and a decision is made

1400
01:11:08,600 --> 01:11:12,599
Speaker 2: to stretch their supplies by throwing dozens of enslaved passengers

1401
01:11:12,640 --> 01:11:13,360
Speaker 2: into the ocean.

1402
01:11:13,720 --> 01:11:14,160
Speaker 4: Geez.

1403
01:11:14,160 --> 01:11:17,479
Speaker 2: So, if you were thinking about this the way they're

1404
01:11:17,479 --> 01:11:21,759
Speaker 2: thinking about this, these people are money, and the women

1405
01:11:21,800 --> 01:11:25,000
Speaker 2: and children are worth less at market than the men,

1406
01:11:25,280 --> 01:11:28,000
Speaker 2: so they're less likely to survive the journey anyway.

1407
01:11:28,360 --> 01:11:33,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're throwing enslaved women and children into the ocean

1408
01:11:33,280 --> 01:11:35,280
Speaker 3: to die horrific drowning death.

1409
01:11:35,760 --> 01:11:38,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the that's their first plan is to break

1410
01:11:39,000 --> 01:11:40,519
Speaker 2: into the chunk of the hold where they keep the

1411
01:11:40,520 --> 01:11:42,519
Speaker 2: women and children and grab a bunch of them and

1412
01:11:42,560 --> 01:11:46,960
Speaker 2: throw them into the sea. Perkara's book The Zorg quote,

1413
01:11:47,360 --> 01:11:49,720
Speaker 2: the cabin windows on a typical frigate like the Zorg

1414
01:11:49,800 --> 01:11:52,240
Speaker 2: were no larger than five to six square feet. Once

1415
01:11:52,240 --> 01:11:54,559
Speaker 2: the woman slave realized she was being thrown out, she

1416
01:11:54,600 --> 01:11:57,120
Speaker 2: would have resisted. She could pull her body weight down,

1417
01:11:57,200 --> 01:11:59,639
Speaker 2: plant her feet and hands against the window frame, bite

1418
01:11:59,680 --> 01:12:02,960
Speaker 2: her cap or scream. To force a resistant adult female

1419
01:12:02,960 --> 01:12:05,080
Speaker 2: through a small cabin window would have required a great

1420
01:12:05,120 --> 01:12:09,080
Speaker 2: deal of violence. It is possible that Stubbs, Collingswood, Kelsall

1421
01:12:09,160 --> 01:12:10,960
Speaker 2: and the crew of the Zorg first stabbed her with

1422
01:12:10,960 --> 01:12:13,519
Speaker 2: a cutlass, or punched and kicked her, cracked her bones,

1423
01:12:13,600 --> 01:12:16,400
Speaker 2: or otherwise beat her into submission before forcing her through

1424
01:12:16,400 --> 01:12:19,559
Speaker 2: the window. The crew members returned to the slavehold, selected

1425
01:12:19,560 --> 01:12:22,080
Speaker 2: another woman and threw her from the same cabin window.

1426
01:12:22,360 --> 01:12:26,000
Speaker 2: Next was a child, another woman, another child, another woman.

1427
01:12:26,240 --> 01:12:28,640
Speaker 2: One by one, the crew picked fifty five women and

1428
01:12:28,720 --> 01:12:31,920
Speaker 2: children and threw them quote alive, singly through the cabin

1429
01:12:32,000 --> 01:12:34,160
Speaker 2: windows into the sea and drowned.

1430
01:12:35,280 --> 01:12:36,920
Speaker 4: That's r effect. Yeah.

1431
01:12:37,200 --> 01:12:40,600
Speaker 2: One of the I mean, one of the women and

1432
01:12:40,600 --> 01:12:42,360
Speaker 2: one of the children they throw it is a newborn

1433
01:12:42,400 --> 01:12:46,080
Speaker 2: baby who was born on the vessel. They throw her

1434
01:12:46,120 --> 01:12:50,559
Speaker 2: and her mom into the sea, and yeah, I mean,

1435
01:12:50,600 --> 01:12:54,240
Speaker 2: it's just a nightmare. The Zorg ultimately docks in Jamaica

1436
01:12:54,280 --> 01:12:57,920
Speaker 2: on December twenty second, seventeen eighty one, between two hundred

1437
01:12:57,960 --> 01:12:59,720
Speaker 2: and twenty four and two hundred and forty of the

1438
01:12:59,760 --> 01:13:03,040
Speaker 2: more four hundred slaved Africans aboard had died sixty two

1439
01:13:03,040 --> 01:13:05,560
Speaker 2: from sickness during the journey, and between one hundred and

1440
01:13:05,600 --> 01:13:08,560
Speaker 2: twenty three under one hundred and thirty three thrown overboard.

1441
01:13:09,160 --> 01:13:13,520
Speaker 2: Ten more and these were men threw themselves overboard committing suicide.

1442
01:13:14,040 --> 01:13:16,120
Speaker 2: Maybe it was just in solidarity with the people who

1443
01:13:16,160 --> 01:13:18,320
Speaker 2: were being murdered. Maybe it was to spare themselves more agony.

1444
01:13:18,400 --> 01:13:20,920
Speaker 2: We don't know, but they like ten people actually just

1445
01:13:21,040 --> 01:13:29,960
Speaker 2: kill themselves, right, which hard to like, yeah, nice mare, Like, yeah,

1446
01:13:29,960 --> 01:13:32,519
Speaker 2: there's no good option for you here, right, Like, and

1447
01:13:32,600 --> 01:13:34,840
Speaker 2: these you it's become clear to you when you see

1448
01:13:34,840 --> 01:13:38,840
Speaker 2: them throwing babies into the water. Whoever these people are,

1449
01:13:38,880 --> 01:13:42,599
Speaker 2: they're monsters. Like maybe any death is better than spending

1450
01:13:42,640 --> 01:13:45,880
Speaker 2: any amount of time with demons like this, right yeah,

1451
01:13:45,920 --> 01:13:48,840
Speaker 2: Like yeah, with the knowledge that's just going to keep

1452
01:13:48,920 --> 01:13:52,640
Speaker 2: doing it, yeah yeah, and that you have to that

1453
01:13:52,760 --> 01:13:56,000
Speaker 2: whatever you're doing is benefiting these fucking monsters, right yeah.

1454
01:13:56,080 --> 01:13:57,600
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1455
01:13:57,840 --> 01:14:00,960
Speaker 2: After they within like a daze of land and Jamaica,

1456
01:14:01,040 --> 01:14:04,920
Speaker 2: Luke Collingwood dies, but Robert Stubbs survives and he makes

1457
01:14:04,920 --> 01:14:07,160
Speaker 2: his way back to London for he brings the tail

1458
01:14:07,240 --> 01:14:13,080
Speaker 2: of what had happened Stubbsy, He's like a kill it, yeah,

1459
01:14:13,080 --> 01:14:15,080
Speaker 2: And he takes the tail of what had happened to

1460
01:14:15,160 --> 01:14:17,479
Speaker 2: the boat to the owner of the syndicate that had

1461
01:14:17,479 --> 01:14:21,720
Speaker 2: employed them, William Gregson. And basically Stubbs doesn't get you know,

1462
01:14:22,080 --> 01:14:25,720
Speaker 2: rich off this journey because he's not part of the crew, right,

1463
01:14:27,360 --> 01:14:30,080
Speaker 2: But he sees as like, okay, and this has kind

1464
01:14:30,080 --> 01:14:32,000
Speaker 2: of happened to him before, right, He testified on behalf

1465
01:14:32,000 --> 01:14:33,759
Speaker 2: of the owner that slave should be got made captain.

1466
01:14:33,840 --> 01:14:35,880
Speaker 2: So he goes to the owner of the syndicate that

1467
01:14:35,920 --> 01:14:38,280
Speaker 2: owns the boat and he's like, hey, I have an idea,

1468
01:14:39,080 --> 01:14:41,040
Speaker 2: and I think the idea is if this works out,

1469
01:14:41,120 --> 01:14:43,320
Speaker 2: I get a cut of it and a job, right,

1470
01:14:43,520 --> 01:14:45,840
Speaker 2: Like you're going to help me, you know, get back

1471
01:14:45,840 --> 01:14:48,120
Speaker 2: and good and start making money off the slave trade again.

1472
01:14:48,240 --> 01:14:48,439
Speaker 4: Right.

1473
01:14:48,800 --> 01:14:51,519
Speaker 2: And the deal that he talks at is, so I

1474
01:14:51,560 --> 01:14:53,320
Speaker 2: need to set something up. Do you know where insurance

1475
01:14:53,360 --> 01:14:55,599
Speaker 2: comes from? James as an industry?

1476
01:14:56,080 --> 01:15:01,000
Speaker 4: Hey, boats, slavery, okay, specifically slavery cool. Yeah.

1477
01:15:01,040 --> 01:15:01,200
Speaker 6: Look.

1478
01:15:01,320 --> 01:15:04,639
Speaker 2: Voids of London, which started as a coffeehouse really gets

1479
01:15:04,680 --> 01:15:06,840
Speaker 2: going as a business insuring slave ships.

1480
01:15:06,920 --> 01:15:07,080
Speaker 5: Right.

1481
01:15:07,120 --> 01:15:10,000
Speaker 2: Now, boats in general, that is a big part of insurance,

1482
01:15:10,040 --> 01:15:13,280
Speaker 2: but ensuring the ensuring the slave trade is a huge

1483
01:15:13,360 --> 01:15:16,280
Speaker 2: part of the birth of insurance as an industry, right,

1484
01:15:17,280 --> 01:15:20,680
Speaker 2: because it's an expensive proposition. Right, you're filling this boat up,

1485
01:15:20,720 --> 01:15:22,800
Speaker 2: you're buying all of the you're buying all of the

1486
01:15:22,800 --> 01:15:25,519
Speaker 2: goods to trade for these people, and if they all

1487
01:15:25,560 --> 01:15:28,719
Speaker 2: get captured the boats saying, you're out a shitload of money. Right,

1488
01:15:29,840 --> 01:15:32,840
Speaker 2: So the insurance industry provides a degree of security to

1489
01:15:32,880 --> 01:15:36,320
Speaker 2: the owners of slave syndicates like Gregson. Now, some deaths

1490
01:15:36,360 --> 01:15:38,720
Speaker 2: are expected as a result of the brutality of the

1491
01:15:38,720 --> 01:15:40,920
Speaker 2: middle passage. Right, You're not going to get money just

1492
01:15:40,920 --> 01:15:44,040
Speaker 2: because some slaves die on the boat, because it's assumed

1493
01:15:44,040 --> 01:15:46,400
Speaker 2: that they will, right, you're jamming them in. Their illness

1494
01:15:46,439 --> 01:15:48,720
Speaker 2: is gonna some crew, We're going to die, right, But

1495
01:15:49,160 --> 01:15:52,200
Speaker 2: catastrophes like a boat sinking in a storm or a

1496
01:15:52,240 --> 01:15:57,600
Speaker 2: slave uprising are insured, and so stuff comes back and

1497
01:15:57,640 --> 01:16:01,240
Speaker 2: it's like, hey, we had to kill about one hundred

1498
01:16:01,280 --> 01:16:03,920
Speaker 2: and thirty of these people, but we had to kill

1499
01:16:03,960 --> 01:16:05,760
Speaker 2: them because of an act of the sea, an act

1500
01:16:05,800 --> 01:16:08,840
Speaker 2: of God basically because like whoa, this disaster hit us

1501
01:16:08,880 --> 01:16:10,080
Speaker 2: and we were going to run out of water. We

1502
01:16:10,120 --> 01:16:12,880
Speaker 2: had no option but to throw them overboard. That means

1503
01:16:13,360 --> 01:16:18,280
Speaker 2: their deaths are payable, like your insurance company owes you

1504
01:16:18,360 --> 01:16:25,000
Speaker 2: for them, right, because it was an unavoidable necessity. So yeah, yeah,

1505
01:16:25,080 --> 01:16:27,720
Speaker 2: that's that stubs this move. And Gregson's like, all right, yeah,

1506
01:16:27,720 --> 01:16:29,639
Speaker 2: I'll try to make more money, and so he puts

1507
01:16:29,640 --> 01:16:31,519
Speaker 2: in a claim for the value of these people. I

1508
01:16:31,520 --> 01:16:34,040
Speaker 2: think he values them at about thirty pounds each these

1509
01:16:34,080 --> 01:16:37,599
Speaker 2: people who were murdered. The insurers fight back, not because

1510
01:16:37,720 --> 01:16:39,559
Speaker 2: they're good people, because they don't want to pay out

1511
01:16:39,640 --> 01:16:43,439
Speaker 2: any money. And there's a court case over this Gregson v. Gilbert,

1512
01:16:43,600 --> 01:16:46,640
Speaker 2: right over whether or not this really was basically an

1513
01:16:46,680 --> 01:16:49,200
Speaker 2: act of God that is covered by insurance or if

1514
01:16:49,240 --> 01:16:52,080
Speaker 2: they didn't need to kill these people and thus this

1515
01:16:52,120 --> 01:16:54,920
Speaker 2: shit it shouldn't be covered. And the court in this

1516
01:16:55,080 --> 01:16:58,200
Speaker 2: case finds for the Gregson syndicate. It rules that enslaved

1517
01:16:58,200 --> 01:17:01,240
Speaker 2: people are property, that this was an act of God effectively,

1518
01:17:01,280 --> 01:17:03,679
Speaker 2: and that the insurance company has to compensate the syndicate

1519
01:17:03,720 --> 01:17:07,760
Speaker 2: for their loss. And that's the first court case. It

1520
01:17:07,880 --> 01:17:10,599
Speaker 2: is the fallout from this court case that is going

1521
01:17:10,640 --> 01:17:14,599
Speaker 2: to inspire the birth of the organized abolitionist movement in England. Right,

1522
01:17:15,040 --> 01:17:18,160
Speaker 2: this is I mean, really, I mean, the abolitionist movement

1523
01:17:18,200 --> 01:17:20,680
Speaker 2: in the US owes a lot to what happens in

1524
01:17:20,720 --> 01:17:22,240
Speaker 2: the wake of this horrifying case.

1525
01:17:22,320 --> 01:17:23,519
Speaker 4: Right, So we're going to talk.

1526
01:17:23,360 --> 01:17:25,559
Speaker 2: About all that and more in parts two and three.

1527
01:17:26,040 --> 01:17:29,960
Speaker 4: James, how are you feeling? Well? Not, it's Christmas, as

1528
01:17:29,960 --> 01:17:34,040
Speaker 4: I expected, coming coming on the happy nice guy Christmas episode.

1529
01:17:34,360 --> 01:17:37,280
Speaker 4: There's good guys in the other parts. Okay, Yeah, I'm

1530
01:17:37,280 --> 01:17:40,760
Speaker 4: glad to hear that. Yeah, yeah, I know. Good to

1531
01:17:41,479 --> 01:17:44,160
Speaker 4: talk about the way that British people have come themselves

1532
01:17:44,160 --> 01:17:45,360
Speaker 4: in glory throughout history.

1533
01:17:46,080 --> 01:17:50,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, we'll get some better British representation in the Arctic.

1534
01:17:51,800 --> 01:17:57,120
Speaker 2: You got a book, though, James, speaking of representation, Yeah, it's.

1535
01:17:57,000 --> 01:18:00,519
Speaker 4: Not a book about British people, particularly. I am in it,

1536
01:18:00,600 --> 01:18:03,880
Speaker 4: so is Robert. But yeah, I've written a book about

1537
01:18:03,960 --> 01:18:08,559
Speaker 4: anarchists at war from me and mar Rejava and the

1538
01:18:08,560 --> 01:18:11,960
Speaker 4: Spanish Civil War. A bit less depressing than this episode

1539
01:18:12,000 --> 01:18:14,800
Speaker 4: was that you're going to find some really inspiring people

1540
01:18:14,800 --> 01:18:17,120
Speaker 4: who I think have done really beautiful things. What's it

1541
01:18:17,200 --> 01:18:19,400
Speaker 4: called it? Is a good call, Sophie. I'm not very

1542
01:18:19,400 --> 01:18:22,880
Speaker 4: good at this. It's called against the State. You can

1543
01:18:22,920 --> 01:18:25,719
Speaker 4: see it there kind of doesn't do well. It doesn't

1544
01:18:25,760 --> 01:18:26,920
Speaker 4: do well on the camera, does it.

1545
01:18:27,720 --> 01:18:30,360
Speaker 3: The pre order link will be in our episode Depe.

1546
01:18:30,920 --> 01:18:33,360
Speaker 4: Just go and click that. It's quite reasonable. It's quite

1547
01:18:33,360 --> 01:18:36,839
Speaker 4: affordable right now. I think it's eighteen dollars, so if

1548
01:18:36,880 --> 01:18:39,320
Speaker 4: you buy it now, it would arrive in late January.

1549
01:18:39,320 --> 01:18:42,360
Speaker 4: It's released on the twenty sixth of January, so maybe

1550
01:18:42,400 --> 01:18:44,240
Speaker 4: you'll forget and it will be a nice little surprise

1551
01:18:44,320 --> 01:18:46,960
Speaker 4: for you at a time when otherwise, you know, the

1552
01:18:47,040 --> 01:18:49,080
Speaker 4: nights are long and it's cold and raining all the time.

1553
01:18:50,120 --> 01:18:53,280
Speaker 2: Excellent, Well, everybody will see you for part two.

1554
01:18:54,200 --> 01:18:54,880
Speaker 4: Goodbye.

1555
01:18:58,280 --> 01:19:01,000
Speaker 6: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1556
01:19:01,360 --> 01:19:04,640
Speaker 6: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia

1557
01:19:04,800 --> 01:19:08,000
Speaker 6: dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1558
01:19:08,080 --> 01:19:10,560
Speaker 6: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1559
01:19:10,840 --> 01:19:14,240
Speaker 3: Behind the Bastards is now available on YouTube, new episodes

1560
01:19:14,520 --> 01:19:16,000
Speaker 3: every Wednesday and Friday.

1561
01:19:16,320 --> 01:19:17,040
Speaker 4: Subscribe to our

1562
01:19:17,120 --> 01:19:20,760
Speaker 3: Channel YouTube dot com slash at Behind the Bastards