1 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the 2 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:09,560 Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime. 3 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Holles, a retired cold case investigator who's 4 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:16,439 Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them. 5 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most 6 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: compelling true crimes, and. 7 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 2: I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring new 8 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:26,079 Speaker 2: insights to old mysteries. 9 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime 10 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens. 11 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold. 12 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:39,839 Speaker 1: This is buried Bones. 13 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 2: Hey, Kate, how are you today? 14 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:04,959 Speaker 1: I'm well, Paul, how are you doing? 15 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 2: I am doing good. What's been going on? 16 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 1: Well? I think we're going to jump right into this 17 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 1: two parter. I don't even have time to tell you 18 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:15,399 Speaker 1: how things are going. Things are fine? How about that? 19 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 2: Okay? 20 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: Sorry, answer, things are great. Let's move on. 21 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:20,760 Speaker 2: Sounds good? 22 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: Okay? So you remember last week I left you with 23 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:28,400 Speaker 1: this case of Captain Joseph White, who was an eighty 24 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:32,959 Speaker 1: two year old man murdered in eighteen thirty Salem, Massachusetts. 25 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:34,479 Speaker 1: Can you believe how I can keep up with all 26 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 1: these numbers. It's amazing. It's the television producer in me, 27 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 1: I think keeping up with all these numbers. Murdered in 28 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:45,679 Speaker 1: eighteen thirty Salem, Massachusetts, and nothing was taken, it doesn't appear. 29 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 1: And we have the vigilance committee who is led by 30 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 1: his nephew, his favorite nephew named Stephen White, and a 31 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 1: couple of other inexperienced investigators who are trying to figure 32 00:01:56,680 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: out who killed this very influential old man in his bed, 33 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: stabbed and bludgeoned. It appears we have domestic servants in 34 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 1: the house who have seemingly been cleared. And now we 35 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: have this informant slash snitch named Hatch who said he 36 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: overheard two brothers from a very well known, very affluent 37 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:23,240 Speaker 1: family in Salem who we're talking about breaking into this 38 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 1: man's house. So that's where we're left with. And I 39 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 1: teased a little bit that Stephen White was not in 40 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 1: the clear here. He was going to be drawn into 41 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 1: this story because let's get back to the motive. The 42 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 1: gold was not taken. The other things that he has 43 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 1: stashed around the house were not taken. So if we're 44 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: looking at money as the bigger picture. I think we 45 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 1: need to be looking at the full monty, which is 46 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 1: who inherits the estate. When this very wealthy man has 47 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 1: been murdered, Is that right for me to go towards 48 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:58,960 Speaker 1: that area? If none of the small petty stuff has 49 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 1: been stolen from this murder. 50 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:03,079 Speaker 2: That would be the top of my list for a motive. 51 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 2: For sure. We know there's any emotional dispute that's been 52 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:09,640 Speaker 2: going on over the will. We got Mary and Joe 53 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 2: who were hoping to receive an inheritance, and the victim 54 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 2: wrote his great niece out of the will, and therefore 55 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 2: Joe is out. So that is something you know, as 56 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 2: I have listened to you know what happened to White, 57 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 2: you know, it appears that this is a targeted homicide. 58 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 2: Theft of property, valuable property inside the house does not 59 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 2: appear to have occurred, and that's where we're at at 60 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 2: this point. But just because he's wealthy and there's this, 61 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 2: I don't know if you want to call it a 62 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 2: dispute over the will, I'm not sure it's risen to 63 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 2: where it's actually being contested in court. But that doesn't 64 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 2: mean that's the sole motive eighty two years old, but 65 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 2: you initially described him as a bastard who has he 66 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 2: pissed off in his life. You know who would like 67 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 2: to just eliminate him because they don't like him. Those 68 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 2: types of homicides do a her. But as we go 69 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:08,119 Speaker 2: through this doing an investigation, you're often juggling multiple theories, 70 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 2: multiple leads, multiple potential motives. And I've always likened it 71 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:16,799 Speaker 2: to like being on a seesaw where the most weight 72 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 2: seems to be in the case, that's the direction that 73 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 2: you go until you eliminate that as the possibility. And 74 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 2: right now the issue about the will, I would say, 75 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 2: based on the circumstances, is the prime motive that I 76 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:32,280 Speaker 2: can determine at this point in time. 77 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 1: Well, what the Committee of Vigilance is saying is, Wow, 78 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 1: we've got this guy who is saying that he's overheard 79 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: these two brothers from this family saying that they were 80 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 1: planning to break into the captain's house. This seems like 81 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: a great route, according to the vigilance committee, to go down. 82 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:53,359 Speaker 1: They decide to go ahead and put the informant named 83 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:56,279 Speaker 1: Hatch in front of a grand jury, and these two 84 00:04:56,320 --> 00:05:01,479 Speaker 1: brothers are now officially indicted in men a month after 85 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: Joseph White was murdered. They put Richard and George Crownenscheld 86 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 1: in front of a grand jury and they are indicted 87 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 1: on murdered charges. But it's confusing because it's number one 88 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: based on hatch only, and number two there's no real 89 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 1: motive because nothing was stolen, and so this seems like 90 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 1: a case that's a little weird and a little weak already. 91 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 2: It's not just a little weak. You have no case 92 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 2: just because you have an informant, you know, saying he 93 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 2: overheard these two brothers talking about breaking into the house. 94 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 2: There's no case there. This grand jury just must have 95 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 2: been in cahoots, you know, with this vigilante committee or 96 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 2: whatever you call it. I mean, this just seems silly 97 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 2: at this point. There needs to be an investigation. There 98 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 2: needs to be more information, you know, And these two 99 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:57,600 Speaker 2: brothers come from a family of wealth and prominence themselves, 100 00:05:57,640 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 2: So why would they do this? Well I'm looking at that, 101 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,280 Speaker 2: and I hear that and go, okay, Well, if they 102 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:05,359 Speaker 2: are truly involved in White's murder, is this a murder 103 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 2: for higher scheme? They happen to be two people who 104 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 2: would be willing to commit this kind of crime, and 105 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 2: people who come from affluent families commit horrible crimes, So 106 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:18,919 Speaker 2: that's not surprising to me at all. I got to 107 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:21,160 Speaker 2: go down that route. But you can't just put these 108 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 2: two brothers and indict them for murder based off of 109 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 2: an informant making that statement that he overheard them. 110 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 1: Three points one, Richard and George are known as being 111 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: the black sheep of the family, which I'm going to 112 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:39,119 Speaker 1: interpret to mean these are probably troublemakers. Number two, Let's 113 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 1: remember that the media has just stirred things up, and 114 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 1: the details of this case have terrified all of these people. 115 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:51,279 Speaker 1: They're buying guns, they're buying weapons, they're buying watchdogs. So 116 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 1: you have the town of Salem in a frenzy, and 117 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 1: then on top and top of that, you have Stephen White, 118 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: who is the head of the Committee of Vigilance. He 119 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 1: is the one who has pushed for these two brothers 120 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 1: to be very quickly indicted based on one infour mint's opinion. 121 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 2: And something that just dawns on me is that Stephen 122 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 2: White is he's the nephew of the victim. 123 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: Yep, the one who's posted probably going to inherit a lot. 124 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 1: Do you think we don't know yet. 125 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, and he's potentially being perceived in this community as 126 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 2: a very prominent individual in and of himself, so he 127 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 2: has influence. I could see where just him pushing for 128 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 2: an indictment could get the grand jury to go ahead 129 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 2: and do it just because of who Steve White is. 130 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 1: And again, you know, Stephen White is a member of 131 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 1: the Massachusetts legislature, very powerful politician. He is on the 132 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: scene first along with his friend, the business associate, and 133 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:50,679 Speaker 1: then doctor Johnson. So if there is evidence that would 134 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 1: point toward him, Stephen could have done anything he wanted 135 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 1: to get to toss it. He could have manipulated it. 136 00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 1: So I'm not sure Stephen White is out of the 137 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 1: crosshairs just yet. But these brothers are not talking. They 138 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:09,239 Speaker 1: are indicted. And as things are moving along towards what's 139 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: going to be a murder trial, something very odd happens. 140 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 1: We have the appearance of letters. And I never understand 141 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: when people send letters. There's no police to send it to, 142 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 1: but to various citizens and to the Committee of Vigilance, 143 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:28,559 Speaker 1: who is Stephen White and all of these other people. 144 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 1: Some mysterious letters start to pop up and we have 145 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 1: to interpret what the letters, mean, why do people send letters? 146 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 1: And I know we've talked about this before. Why why 147 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 1: why do you do this? I don't understand, you know. 148 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 2: And it is with these high profile cases and even 149 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 2: you know, when you have this who done it aspect, 150 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 2: you have people that want to insert themselves into the 151 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 2: investigation just because they want to have their own personal 152 00:08:56,559 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 2: satisfaction that they've done something, you know, and sometimes it's 153 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 2: in with good intent. Oftentimes those types of people do 154 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 2: not have any information related to the case that's helpful 155 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 2: to the investigation. There are times when somebody truly has 156 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 2: information but is scared. They want the anonymity. That's the 157 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:19,439 Speaker 2: one thing that the snail mail affords them, and so 158 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 2: they do their best to anonymize themselves in the letter 159 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 2: writing as well as the use of the postal service 160 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 2: in order to deliver it. To deliver that information. There 161 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:31,960 Speaker 2: are times that the offender themselves send the letter in 162 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:37,079 Speaker 2: and sometimes they claim responsibility and that's your taunting aspect. 163 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 2: That's a certain type of offenders, like a Dennis Raider. 164 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:44,479 Speaker 2: But other times they are sending letters in to mislead, 165 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 2: to misdirect the investigation. 166 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 1: Well, we have a series of letters and you and 167 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:51,679 Speaker 1: I have to sort out if any of them are 168 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 1: legitimate or if any of them are helpful. The first 169 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 1: letter comes in mid May, so let's think about six 170 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:00,200 Speaker 1: weeks after the murder, but after these two brothers have 171 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 1: been indicted, and it is sent to Joseph Knapp Senior, 172 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 1: not junior, the one who's married to young Mary, the niece. 173 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 1: This is to the dad. He gets this strange letter 174 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 1: in the mail that's postmarked from Maine and we're in Massachusetts. 175 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:19,840 Speaker 1: Remember the sender signs his name as Charles Grant, which 176 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 1: we're going to assume is a fake name. Joseph doesn't 177 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 1: understand any of this. He demands in the letter. The 178 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 1: letter writer demands three hundred and fifty dollars as a 179 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 1: loan to him, the letter writer, but he's kind of saying, 180 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 1: this is in a very threatening way. You owe me 181 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 1: this money. I'm going to call it alone. But it's 182 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:43,080 Speaker 1: really not. He says, if you don't send me this 183 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 1: three hundred and fifty dollars, I'm going to ruin your 184 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:51,560 Speaker 1: reputation by making what he called ruinous disclosures against him. 185 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 1: He's not specific. I think that probably it's insinuated in 186 00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:59,959 Speaker 1: the letter that this is connected to the Joseph White case. 187 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 1: And Joseph Knapp Senior is completely confused, and he hands 188 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:09,440 Speaker 1: the letter over to Joe, married to young Mary, and 189 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 1: says what is going on? And Joe says, I have 190 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 1: no idea. It's a bunch of garbage. But he said, 191 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:17,720 Speaker 1: just for good measure, let's send it to Stephen White 192 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 1: at the Committee of Vigilance and see what happens. I 193 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 1: don't want to be a suspect. I didn't do anything 194 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 1: to my wife's great uncle. We know that we're not 195 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:28,839 Speaker 1: in the will. It's okay. I don't know who sent 196 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 1: you this letter, but it's really odd. So what do 197 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 1: we think about this letter? It sounds like someone is 198 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: trying to extort money. I don't know why from senior 199 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 1: and not junior, but he's trying. Someone's trying to extort 200 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 1: money by making threats against someone in the Nap family 201 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:47,319 Speaker 1: connected to the case. 202 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:50,319 Speaker 2: Yeah, it is odd. You know, this may be somebody 203 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 2: who is just trying to take advantage of the fear 204 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 2: that the community has. You know, here he's going okay, 205 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 2: even though he's not explicitly saying this. In the less 206 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:04,320 Speaker 2: there may be an implied threat. I'm the guy that 207 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:08,199 Speaker 2: came in to this very wealthy mansion and was able 208 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:10,960 Speaker 2: to kill victim White. I can do this to you 209 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:14,679 Speaker 2: unless you send me three hundred and fifty dollars, which 210 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 2: in eighteen thirty three hundred fifty dollars was you know, 211 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 2: pretty large amount of money, you know. But why Joe Napp? 212 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 2: You know, that's that's kind of an interesting thing the senior. 213 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 2: So that's one thought I'm having. And the letter writer, 214 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 2: this Charles Grat, may have nothing to do with the 215 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 2: White homicide, or this is from the offender. And now 216 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 2: this is a misdirection. I'm not sure what the misdirection 217 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:42,319 Speaker 2: is at this point in time, but the postmark out 218 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 2: of Maine may be the primary misdirection to get the 219 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 2: investigators this committee to start focusing. Oh, the guy we're 220 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:51,680 Speaker 2: looking for is out of state. 221 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:56,319 Speaker 1: It's really interesting because this letter turns everything on its head. 222 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 1: Joe Napp turns this over very quickly. He does not 223 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:02,320 Speaker 1: want to be a suspect. Stephen White looks at it, 224 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:06,840 Speaker 1: puts it away, and then more letters, more confusing letters appear. 225 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:09,440 Speaker 1: There are a couple of them. One is addressed to 226 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: the Committee of vigilance in general, and one is directly 227 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:16,560 Speaker 1: to Stephen White himself. These are all from Charles Grant 228 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:21,680 Speaker 1: yet again, and in it Charles Grant changes his story. 229 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:26,079 Speaker 1: He said, Okay, I've been pulled into a plot here. 230 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 1: I was contracted to kill the captain by Stephen White. 231 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:35,319 Speaker 1: So this letter is now fingering Stephen White as being 232 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 1: the person who wanted his own uncle killed, presumably to 233 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:41,440 Speaker 1: get the money. And Charles Grant says, I'm the guy 234 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 1: he wanted to hire, and I'm assuming he's going to 235 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 1: soon say well, I didn't do it, but I wanted 236 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 1: to let you all know that this is what happened. 237 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 1: So what do you think about this? 238 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:54,319 Speaker 2: The fact that he's naming Stephen White, who is a suspect, 239 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:55,320 Speaker 2: kind of right. 240 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:57,560 Speaker 1: We're thinking he's the one who's going to gain them out. 241 00:13:57,600 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 1: We don't know if there's no evidence that Stephen White 242 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:02,840 Speaker 1: was in yet, but it seems like he would be 243 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 1: the one with the most to gain. Even though we 244 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 1: don't know where the will is. We haven't seen a 245 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 1: will yet. We just know that Joseph White took Mary 246 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 1: out of the will. That's it. We don't know anything 247 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 1: else about this document. 248 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 2: Okay, so you know earlier when you were bringing up 249 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 2: Stephen White as potentially somebody who could be responsible. You know, 250 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 2: my initial thought as the first letter came in was 251 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 2: could this be Stephen White doing the misdirection himself. Yep. 252 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 2: Now that Stephen White is being named in this letter 253 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 2: as being the one who's trying to hire Charles Grant 254 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 2: to kill the victim, well that tells me, well, Stephen 255 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 2: White isn't behind sending these letters in. Now there is 256 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 2: no reliable assessment at this point in time that Charles 257 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 2: Grant still has anything directly to do with this this case. 258 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 2: But it is an interesting bit of information. It's just 259 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 2: why did he start out with the threat to Joe 260 00:14:55,920 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 2: Knapp Sr. And then now is coming forward and saying, hey, 261 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 2: Stephen White try to hire me. 262 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 1: Just so you know, Yeah, it's interesting because I want 263 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 1: to know which is if either of them are true, 264 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:09,479 Speaker 1: which is the true one and which is the misdirection. 265 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 1: So the Committee of Vigilance, led by Stephen White, does 266 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 1: not believe the second set of letters, doesn't think that 267 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 1: Stephen is involved. Of course he's saying I'm not involved. 268 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 1: So they decide to test this. They decide to send 269 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 1: fifty dollars, not three hundred and fifty that Joseph Knapp 270 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 1: was asked to send, but fifty dollars that was requested 271 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 1: in the first letter, and the direction say send me 272 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 1: this three hundred and fifty dollars. It'll arrive in this 273 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 1: post office in Maine, and I will go and pick 274 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 1: it up. That's the presumption is that they're going to 275 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 1: send it. It goes to the post office addressed to Charles Grant, 276 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 1: and that'll be the end of it, and I'll keep 277 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 1: my mouth shut. So they decide to go ahead and 278 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 1: send the fifty dollars with a note saying we will 279 00:15:55,800 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 1: send more later. When that letter goes out, the committee 280 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 1: members send somebody to the post office in Maine to 281 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 1: sit there and wait to see who is going to 282 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 1: pick this letter up, so they're able to time it 283 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 1: to know approximately when it will be delivered to the 284 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 1: post office. And after a very long time, it sounds 285 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 1: like someone does arrive to collect the letter that was 286 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 1: sent to Charles Grant, and it wasn't somebody named Charles Grant. 287 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: It was someone named John C. R. 288 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 2: Palmer. 289 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 1: Palmer puts his hands up and says, okay, you've caught me. Yes, 290 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 1: this is my letter. Let me explain. But first I 291 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 1: want immunity. So let's talk about immunity for a second. 292 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 1: Do we believe people who are granted immunity because isn't 293 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 1: it in their best interests This guy's extorting someone in 294 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 1: a huge, high profile murder case. Isn't it in his 295 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 1: best interest to say any Kakamami story he can to 296 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 1: get the Vigilance Committee off his back? Or do we 297 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 1: ever believe people who have been given immunity? 298 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 2: The idea of immunity is it's probably more widely talked about, 299 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 2: I guess in stories than how it's actually used within prosecution. 300 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:13,720 Speaker 2: The only entity, at least at the local level of 301 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:18,200 Speaker 2: law enforcement is the elected DA. Only the elected DA 302 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 2: can choose to give this idea of immunity. And I know, 303 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 2: like something like within a homicide investigation, if there's any 304 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 2: chance that the person that is seeking this immunity status 305 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:36,119 Speaker 2: is involved in the case, DA's are not going to 306 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 2: give them immunity. It'll be interesting to see how this 307 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 2: plays out. But right now, he's not looking for immunity 308 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:46,439 Speaker 2: from the extortion aspect. He's looking for immunity regarding the 309 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:48,880 Speaker 2: murder of White. Right, yeah. 310 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:51,399 Speaker 1: So the committee is saying, how are you involved with this? 311 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 1: You have sent all of these letters, and John Palmer says, 312 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 1: what are you talking about? He said, I sent one letter, 313 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:03,399 Speaker 1: the one you responded to. And the committee says, the 314 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 1: one you sent to Joseph Knapp. Why would you do that. 315 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 1: John Palmer's reaction was, oh, there's a senior in a junior, 316 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: because he said that was not meant for Joseph Knapp senior. 317 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:20,640 Speaker 1: That was meant for junior. So we've got all these letters, 318 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 1: many of them are accusing Stephen White of murdering his uncle. 319 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 1: But really this is a snitch who seems legit. And 320 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:36,159 Speaker 1: he says, it's Joe Nap and I was at the 321 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:41,359 Speaker 1: Crown and Schelds brothers house in Salem and he overheard 322 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 1: the brothers discussing a request from Joe Napp junior, Young 323 00:18:45,600 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 1: Mary's husband to kill Joseph White. It is not Stephen White. 324 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 1: So we have John Palmer who says these two brothers 325 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 1: were saying, Joe Knapp and Joe's brother Francis, we're looking 326 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 1: for someone to murder Captain White in exchange for one 327 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 1: thousand dollars eighteen thirty one thousand dollars is more than 328 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:25,639 Speaker 1: thirty thousand dollars today. So if we backtrack, everybody's asking 329 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:28,880 Speaker 1: for a lot of money. Joe Palmer was asking for 330 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 1: three hundred and fifty dollars, so we're looking at more 331 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 1: than ten grand. This is a lot of money. We're 332 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 1: talking about. The Crown and Shelled Brothers are already in custody, 333 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 1: so Palmer's testimony is enough to secure the arrest of 334 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 1: these two brothers, the Nap brothers. So you've got the 335 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 1: Crown and Shelled Brothers and you've got the Nap Brothers. 336 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 1: All four of these guys are arrested, and at some 337 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:56,119 Speaker 1: point the Vigilance Committee is going to want to know 338 00:19:56,119 --> 00:20:00,080 Speaker 1: who's telling the truth here? Do we believe Hatch and 339 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 1: John Palmer, the two snitches, informants or whatever? These brothers 340 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: are all going to say, This is a lot of people. 341 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:09,200 Speaker 1: I feel like this is more people that we're dealing 342 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: with than anybody. Any other episode we've ever done was 343 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 1: a long list of characters. 344 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:16,879 Speaker 2: Here, No, there, it is, and it can get a 345 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 2: little confusing, but I think you know, when we boil 346 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 2: it down to the fundamental motive, I think we do 347 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:26,000 Speaker 2: have to go back to the will. And you know, 348 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:28,880 Speaker 2: the big question that I have right now is whether 349 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:34,880 Speaker 2: or not Palmer had any awareness that White had written 350 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:38,880 Speaker 2: his great niece out of the will. You know, that 351 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:42,400 Speaker 2: may not have been common knowledge. What would be Junior's 352 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 2: motive to kill White If he's not going to inherit 353 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:50,159 Speaker 2: via his wife all of that wealth, There's got to 354 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 2: be something. I mean, this could purely be I hate 355 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:59,479 Speaker 2: that old man, I want him dead, absolutely, but seems 356 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 2: like there're may maybe more there. There could be some 357 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 2: indirect way that Joe Junior could be expecting to take 358 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:11,359 Speaker 2: possession of some of the financial assets as a result 359 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:12,359 Speaker 2: of the homicide. 360 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:16,160 Speaker 1: When we do these stories often you pick up really 361 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:18,880 Speaker 1: quickly on what's happening, even when I try to throw 362 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 1: you a bunch of red herrings, pick up on it. 363 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:24,160 Speaker 1: And you've picked up on this one too. You're right, 364 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 1: I mean, you really have gone down the right road here. 365 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 1: So Joe Napp has a crisis of conscience and a 366 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:34,200 Speaker 1: reverend who is sent in by the Committee of Vigilance, 367 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:37,360 Speaker 1: of course, goes and talks to him in jail and 368 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:41,920 Speaker 1: essentially convinces Joe to confess and I believe all of this. 369 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,159 Speaker 1: I don't think the reverend was manipulating him. I think 370 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 1: he used religion as a way to convince Joe to 371 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 1: kind of cleanse his soul. Here it's a nine page 372 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:53,920 Speaker 1: long confession. Joe signs it, and this is what Joe says, 373 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 1: And this is exactly what you've been talking about. And 374 00:21:56,320 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 1: it still gets convoluted and really interesting. Joe says. John 375 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 1: Palmer did write the first letter misdirected to his dad. 376 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 1: It was him. Joe freaked out when he read this 377 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:13,879 Speaker 1: extortion letter, and that's when he decided that he was 378 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 1: going to misdirect and send these other letters that were 379 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:20,919 Speaker 1: going to accuse Stephen White of it. And this is 380 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 1: where I'm saying, this becomes very complicated. Joe really thought 381 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 1: a lot of this stuff through, so he sent these letters. 382 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:31,399 Speaker 1: Mint is a misdirect Do letters like that? Are they 383 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 1: sometimes successful? Is it that you have the police are 384 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:39,440 Speaker 1: inundated with so many tips that it does, in fact 385 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 1: distract them to a point where they aren't able to 386 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 1: ferret the correct information out because you've got all of 387 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:49,359 Speaker 1: these different things, including potentially from the killer, trying to 388 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:50,439 Speaker 1: redirect them away. 389 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 2: It very well can hamper an investigation, especially if there's 390 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:57,920 Speaker 2: a lot in the modern era. That's what we see 391 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 2: with all the online slip that you know, and I 392 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,440 Speaker 2: don't you know, with this group for you know, both 393 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,399 Speaker 2: the Zodiac as well as a notably Golden State killer, 394 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 2: and it can become overwhelming because there's so many of 395 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:13,400 Speaker 2: them out there. So in a high profile case, when 396 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 2: you have thousands of tips coming in, it really becomes 397 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 2: hard to prioritize those tips. Some tips you can tell, okay, 398 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,680 Speaker 2: there seems to be some substance there, and there's other 399 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 2: tips where there's nothing. They haven't provided any information, any 400 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:32,399 Speaker 2: detail that I can go and pursue to determine whether 401 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:34,919 Speaker 2: this is legit or not. But when you get that 402 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,199 Speaker 2: much and you know, typically most apartments you might have 403 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:40,879 Speaker 2: one investigator assigned to a case. You may have a couple, 404 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 2: and you're now dealing with, you know, back in the day, 405 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 2: I imagine you're probably on the order of maybe one 406 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 2: hundred different tips coming in, you know, and it would 407 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:52,639 Speaker 2: all probably be in writing in some capacity. It is 408 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 2: a tough thing and you end up spinning your wheels 409 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 2: pursuing false leads. 410 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 1: Well, i'll tell you what was more stressful is And 411 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 1: back in the day, people would show up at your desk, 412 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 1: investigators at the police department and sit there, can you imagine, 413 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:12,119 Speaker 1: and having really long conversations with what we would kindly 414 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:15,920 Speaker 1: say are cranks. These days, they would really occupy their time. 415 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 1: And in the case of my first book with John 416 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 1: Reginald Christy the Serial Killer, it was like thousands of 417 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:25,480 Speaker 1: letters sent to the notting Hill Police, snail mail from 418 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 1: psychics and color readers, and I mean, just like unreal, 419 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:32,720 Speaker 1: and it took up so much information, so much time. 420 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 1: And it sounds like that's exactly what Joe Napp was 421 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 1: trying to do. He was trying to throw off people. 422 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 1: And it seemed like a pretty valiant effort, if we 423 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,679 Speaker 1: want to say valiant in this case. He worked really hard. 424 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:47,959 Speaker 1: Let me get to the motive. This, I thought, was 425 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 1: I wonder if he was overthinking a little bit. Here. 426 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:53,880 Speaker 1: He knew that Mary had been written out of the will, 427 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,359 Speaker 1: so he was well aware that Captain White did not 428 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:02,200 Speaker 1: want his great niece who adored to marry Joe, that 429 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 1: Captain White had taken Mary out of the will. But 430 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:08,679 Speaker 1: here was Joe's plan. Joe knew and I don't know 431 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:12,440 Speaker 1: how that nobody else knew this, But Joe knew that 432 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 1: Captain White kept the will in this iron box with 433 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:19,720 Speaker 1: the gold pieces. So his plan was to sneak in 434 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:24,160 Speaker 1: to take the will, destroy it, and then have these 435 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 1: brothers kill Captain White. What Joe thought, and I don't 436 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: know if this would have been the case or not. 437 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:34,199 Speaker 1: What Joe thought was if Captain White was dead and 438 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 1: there's no will, that the fortune would be evenly divided 439 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:40,879 Speaker 1: with the closest relatives, which of course would have been 440 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 1: Stephen White. But Mary Beckford, the niece and Joe's wife, 441 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,120 Speaker 1: Does that plan make sense? It kind of makes sense 442 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:47,399 Speaker 1: to me. 443 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 2: No, for sure, you know. And that's that's kind of 444 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,639 Speaker 2: what I was talking about before, is yeah, you know, 445 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,879 Speaker 2: he in his mind thought that with the victim dead, 446 00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 2: that he would somehow indirectly, not through the will, but 447 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 2: indirectly get assets. And so yeah, I'm I'm liking this 448 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,119 Speaker 2: right now. I think this is this is making sense. 449 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 1: So four days before the murder, Joe manages to get 450 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,920 Speaker 1: into the mansion without anyone knowing it. He says, he's 451 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,960 Speaker 1: not indicating that any of the domestic servants were involved. 452 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,680 Speaker 1: And I'm not going to say that, because it doesn't 453 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:24,199 Speaker 1: sound like they were, and it's a huge space for 454 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,439 Speaker 1: it sounds like just a couple of domestic servants. He 455 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 1: breaks in, he gets and he sneaks in four days 456 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:34,400 Speaker 1: before Captain White's murder. He gets into this iron box, 457 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 1: he gets the will, takes it with the intention of 458 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 1: destroying it, which he does later. But before he leaves, 459 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 1: he unbarred and unscrewed the back window of the first floor, 460 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,640 Speaker 1: so he knew he could send the brothers in later on. 461 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 1: So you know, again, I don't know why Stephen White 462 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,239 Speaker 1: didn't know that the will was in the in the 463 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 1: iron box, and the domestic servants didn't know. I don't 464 00:26:57,359 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 1: know how he knew about it, but he was right. 465 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:01,360 Speaker 1: The will was in this iron box, and he took 466 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,160 Speaker 1: it and he destroyed it, So so far his plan 467 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:05,120 Speaker 1: was working. 468 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 2: I think it's very likely that Mary would know. At 469 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:12,440 Speaker 2: one point, she was very close to the victim, and 470 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,880 Speaker 2: so he probably had told her, Hey, you know, when 471 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 2: I pass away, this is where my will is at. 472 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 2: You know, she was a beneficiary. Yep, doesn't sound like 473 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,359 Speaker 2: the victim changed, you know, the location of the will. 474 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 2: Once he wrote Mary out you know that that was 475 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 2: just where he kept the will. So of course, you 476 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 2: know Mary would tell Joe, her husband, to me, that 477 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:35,640 Speaker 2: all just makes sense. 478 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,920 Speaker 1: So there's more planning. Joe, of course, as the mastermind 479 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 1: of all of this, he meets with these two brothers, 480 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 1: with George and Richard, the troublemakers, the black sheep of 481 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 1: their prominent family, and he says, I'll give you one 482 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 1: thousand dollars if you do this, and they agree. He 483 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 1: made the club himself, the bludgeon. He said that it 484 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 1: was two feet long. It was hardwood, ornamented with beads 485 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:00,479 Speaker 1: at the end to keep it from slipping. So the 486 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 1: newspaper clipping had said it was filled with lead. Joe says, 487 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 1: that's not what happened, that's what they imagined. But still 488 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 1: two feet of hard wood with a handle on it 489 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:12,359 Speaker 1: would have done a lot of damage. Does that tally 490 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 1: with the injuries to the left temple that I described 491 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:15,880 Speaker 1: to you. 492 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:18,720 Speaker 2: Well, most certainly that's a weapon that could produce that 493 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 2: depressed fracture. But if it's just the exposed hard wood 494 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:26,600 Speaker 2: striking White's left temple, I am surprised that there isn't 495 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,359 Speaker 2: a significant laceration as a result of that kind of blow. 496 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know how much manipulation he did to 497 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: the wood to turn it into a club. I don't 498 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:37,359 Speaker 1: know what happened. But the Vigilance Committee says, what about 499 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 1: the stabbing? He said it was a dirk. I don't 500 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 1: know anything about dirks five inch long on the blade. 501 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 1: Why do people call it a dirk? And is there 502 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:46,960 Speaker 1: any difference between a dirk and what I used to 503 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 1: cut my mango with in the mornings? I guess. 504 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 2: So there's so many different types of for lack of 505 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 2: a better word, knife, Even within the California Penal Code Statute, 506 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 2: they list a variety of different names such as this 507 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 2: dirk or this this dagger. I'm looking it up right now. 508 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 2: And a dirk is a long bladed, thrusting dagger. Dagger 509 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 2: typically is a single blade, but two cutting edges versus 510 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 2: you know, your standard kitchen knife has, you know, just 511 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 2: the one cutting edge. So I'm not sure why you 512 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 2: know they have these different terms, but they do. That fits, 513 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 2: you know, long bladed dagger. That fits with what the 514 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,240 Speaker 2: doctor had found in terms of the types of stab wounds. 515 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 1: So what Joe says happened is at ten o'clock that night, 516 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 1: So the captain went to bed at nine. At ten 517 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 1: o'clock that night, he and his brother meet Richard, not George, 518 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 1: but Richard Crownenschild outside of the captain's house. There's that 519 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 1: unlocked window. He points to it. The Knap brothers stay outside. 520 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,880 Speaker 1: They do not go inside, so rich which is I 521 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 1: think they're on the street, which is why there's only 522 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 1: one set of foot impressions shoe impressions outside of the window. 523 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,959 Speaker 1: So Richard goes in. You know, remember that Captain White 524 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:16,000 Speaker 1: lives with his niece Mary, older Mary, not younger Mary, 525 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 1: and the brothers know that older Mary is staying with 526 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 1: younger Mary. So he knows that that floor is most 527 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 1: likely cleared because the servants would be on the top 528 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 1: floor and Captain White's floor is clear except for Captain White. 529 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 1: So he sneaks in, he does the murder, he leaves, 530 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,840 Speaker 1: and that is the end of it. You know, Joe 531 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:43,440 Speaker 1: was happy because he thought, Okay, Captain's dead, there's no will, 532 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 1: none of this is going to be a problem. And 533 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 1: the issue was that, you know, you have an informant, 534 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 1: two different informants, one who said he overheard the brothers 535 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 1: talk about breaking in and the other one who overheard 536 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 1: the brothers talk about being higher, specifically by Joe Napp. 537 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 1: And I don't think without either of these informants that 538 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 1: this case would have moved along at all. And there's 539 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 1: still more to talk about too. What do you think 540 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 1: about that? So in this case, we've got two informants 541 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 1: who actually gave us good information and cleared a lot 542 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:15,480 Speaker 1: of stuff up. 543 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:19,600 Speaker 2: This is the problem when you have a conspiracy is 544 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,680 Speaker 2: that you have too many people who have knowledge and 545 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,719 Speaker 2: it just takes one to break the case. And in 546 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 2: this particular case, you have two informants. When you have 547 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:33,000 Speaker 2: these murder for Higher schemes, there are occasions, you know, 548 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 2: where now you know the person who really wants somebody dead, well, 549 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 2: they've lost control of the case because now there's somebody 550 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 2: else out there that has knowledge of their involvement in it. 551 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 2: You know, you've got the money being exchanged. Do you think, oh, 552 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 2: that's going to keep the actual person who committed the 553 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:54,520 Speaker 2: homicide quiet? Oh? No, not necessarily. You know, it's an 554 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 2: interesting case because you know, this is not unlike the 555 00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 2: cases that we see today when you have the murder 556 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 2: for high plot, the financial motives, the relationships. You know, 557 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 2: I'm kind of curious if the great niece knew about 558 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:09,640 Speaker 2: this murder plot. 559 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 1: Committee of Vigilance says no, the great niece or the niece. 560 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 1: There's no indication they were stunned when this happened, and 561 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 1: very upset. It keeps going. So the confession of Joe 562 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:26,720 Speaker 1: completely freaks out Richard Crownenscheld. Remember he's the one who 563 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,320 Speaker 1: Joe said went inside. The other brother, George is not 564 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:33,000 Speaker 1: even there according to Joe and his own brother, it's 565 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 1: just Richard. So Richard now feels like, uh, oh, Joe 566 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 1: is going to testify against me, and so Richard dies 567 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 1: by suicide before he's able to go on trial. Oh, 568 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 1: I know. And what I want to know is is 569 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,560 Speaker 1: it automatic for people who are going on trial for 570 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 1: murder to be on suicide watch. I don't know anything 571 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 1: about suicide watch in jail or does something have to 572 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 1: happen for them to be monitored twenty four hours a 573 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:03,040 Speaker 1: day before they go on trial. 574 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 2: It's not just automatic, Okay, Jails properly run jails, of 575 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:13,840 Speaker 2: course are monitoring the inmates, but usually there has to 576 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 2: be some sort of indicator that's going to cause the 577 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 2: jail to kick into a suicide watch scenario, and that's 578 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 2: very intensive on the staff within there. And there are 579 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 2: jails out there that have specialized cells that really are 580 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 2: have been constructed in a way in order to try 581 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 2: to completely eliminate the possibility from somebody utilizing structures within 582 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 2: that cell in order to hang themselves or to make 583 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 2: a weapon to kill themselves, et cetera. 584 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:47,640 Speaker 1: This story boy just keeps getting order. George, who is 585 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:50,920 Speaker 1: Richard's brother, who was one of the people accused of 586 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 1: being a co conspirator here when his brother dies, George says, 587 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,000 Speaker 1: I didn't have anything to do with it, and they 588 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:00,760 Speaker 1: cannot figure out how to charge him with anything anyway. 589 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,600 Speaker 1: He says, I have an alibi. Two sex workers testified 590 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:06,760 Speaker 1: that he had spent the night with both of them 591 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,360 Speaker 1: on the night of the murder, So they tried to 592 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:11,800 Speaker 1: put him on trial, but he had this strong alibi 593 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,680 Speaker 1: from these two women who didn't seem to have a 594 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:17,440 Speaker 1: dog in the fight. Yeah, even though George was there 595 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 1: and it seemed like he was helping develop this plot 596 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,480 Speaker 1: to kill Captain White, he's let go. He's never charged 597 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:25,120 Speaker 1: with anything. 598 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:29,319 Speaker 2: So Joe has a confessions he saying yes, yes, I 599 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 2: hired these two brothers. Richard went in. I stood out there. 600 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 2: He's minimizing his role in this in terms of the 601 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 2: actual homicide. That's just one of those things that I 602 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:43,680 Speaker 2: would go, you know, are we sure Joe didn't go 603 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,960 Speaker 2: inside and participate in the homicide? And the one person 604 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:50,480 Speaker 2: you know, like Richard possibly you know, would know, but 605 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:52,880 Speaker 2: he is no longer around. Yeah. 606 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:56,200 Speaker 1: I mean, I think Richard taking his own life really 607 00:34:56,200 --> 00:35:00,759 Speaker 1: complicated this case. You'll recognize this name. The lead prosecutor 608 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,280 Speaker 1: is a man named Daniel Webster, who was a future 609 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:09,760 Speaker 1: Secretary of State, luminary in legal worlds, and Daniel Webster 610 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,840 Speaker 1: is the one in charge of this case. It seems like, 611 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:17,960 Speaker 1: now that Richard is dead, that Joe might want to 612 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,840 Speaker 1: walk back on his confession, but the defense instead actually 613 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:25,520 Speaker 1: employs something I thought was interesting. The defense said when 614 00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:28,920 Speaker 1: Daniel Webster is saying, listen, you know these two brothers, 615 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:32,080 Speaker 1: the Nap brothers, maybe they weren't inside. We don't have 616 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:35,360 Speaker 1: proof that they were inside, but they are certainly accessories. 617 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:40,000 Speaker 1: And what the defense said was that Joe Napp and 618 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 1: his brother could not be considered accessories in the murder 619 00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:47,440 Speaker 1: because the legal requirement said that an accessory must be 620 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:51,480 Speaker 1: present during the murder. And if you remember, the Nap 621 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:54,359 Speaker 1: brothers had been standing on the street three hundred feet 622 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:56,719 Speaker 1: away from the room where the murder was being committed. 623 00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:00,520 Speaker 1: So the defense is trying to, you know, off on 624 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:03,120 Speaker 1: a technicality here, saying, you guys can't even put them 625 00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:06,640 Speaker 1: on trial appropriately. They weren't accessors. Even if they say 626 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,480 Speaker 1: we were there, which they said, okay, well we were there. 627 00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:11,719 Speaker 1: We didn't hire them, but we were there. You can't 628 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 1: charge us as accessories. 629 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:15,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is where you know, I would be punting 630 00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:20,680 Speaker 2: over to a prosecutor in terms of is there any arguments? 631 00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:23,200 Speaker 2: You know, statutes vary from state to state, you know, 632 00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:27,080 Speaker 2: in terms of you know, what accessory is, how it's defined, 633 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:31,680 Speaker 2: And I think a good prosecutor could probably formulate an 634 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:35,839 Speaker 2: argument that you know, there is a presence it may 635 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:39,320 Speaker 2: not have been within the room in which a homicide occurred, 636 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:43,799 Speaker 2: but in essence, they escorted you know, the killer to 637 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:47,759 Speaker 2: that location. They are outside, you know, they hired them. 638 00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:52,080 Speaker 2: You know, there most certainly is some arguments that could 639 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:55,200 Speaker 2: be made, and I do not have the legal acumen 640 00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:57,400 Speaker 2: to be able to construct any type of argument on 641 00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:01,520 Speaker 2: that front, but there's other statutes that Junior has violated. 642 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:05,920 Speaker 2: You know, it's not just accessory, so you know, hopefully 643 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:07,680 Speaker 2: he's been charged with other crimes. 644 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:12,080 Speaker 1: Well, during this trial, the prosecutor, Daniel Webster, makes a 645 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:14,880 Speaker 1: great argument of course he's got all of this evidence, 646 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:19,120 Speaker 1: he's got these two informants. And ultimately, not surprisingly, Francis 647 00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:22,359 Speaker 1: and Joe are found guilty of murder after about five 648 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:26,719 Speaker 1: hours of deliberation, and ultimately they are executed, which is 649 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:31,640 Speaker 1: not surprising. And this case is gone down in infamy 650 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 1: in Salem. The house is very famous. You can do 651 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,560 Speaker 1: kind of ghosty tours of the house. It's now owned 652 00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:43,400 Speaker 1: by the Peabody Essex Museum and it was restored to 653 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:47,520 Speaker 1: its eighteen fourteen condition. They have the club that was used, 654 00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:50,040 Speaker 1: but they don't you know, display it at all. And 655 00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:53,960 Speaker 1: it is part of the lure of all the weird 656 00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:57,040 Speaker 1: things that have happened. And it's just been one of 657 00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,319 Speaker 1: those historic cases that I have read about for years 658 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:01,680 Speaker 1: that I've just never done anything about it. And I 659 00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:05,560 Speaker 1: liked this case for you because there's a lot of 660 00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,359 Speaker 1: criminal profiling. I guess I don't know what you would 661 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,040 Speaker 1: even call it, like thinking why do people do this, 662 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:14,160 Speaker 1: what are their motivations, and how do they organize things 663 00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:17,920 Speaker 1: to throw off police to cover their tracks. There's some 664 00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:20,000 Speaker 1: forensics in there. I felt like there was a whole 665 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:21,120 Speaker 1: lot of different things for you. 666 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:25,320 Speaker 2: It's a fascinating case. It's somewhat complex with the various 667 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,640 Speaker 2: moving parts and the number of people actually involved in 668 00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:32,480 Speaker 2: committing the crime. You know, it's crime and human nature, 669 00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:38,720 Speaker 2: and that fundamentally is really understanding. You know, the motivations 670 00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,239 Speaker 2: that cause people to want to hurt others, and there's 671 00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:46,280 Speaker 2: really just a few when you boil it down, there's 672 00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:49,839 Speaker 2: just a few true motives, and there's subtleties, and there 673 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:52,480 Speaker 2: may be multiple motives in each crime. It could be 674 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:59,520 Speaker 2: financial and vindictiveness. It can be sexual and financial. You 675 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:02,080 Speaker 2: can't just say it's one motive. But in this case, 676 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:08,040 Speaker 2: it really underscores that you have this relationship between the 677 00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:12,640 Speaker 2: victim White his great niece, and that relationship goes sideways 678 00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:14,960 Speaker 2: when she gets involved in a relationship. Now you have 679 00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:19,319 Speaker 2: a triangle. That triangle, it's not a lover's triangle per se. 680 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:23,719 Speaker 2: There's an emotional triangle between these three people and there 681 00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:28,040 Speaker 2: is a financial aspect to it. You stack those two 682 00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:31,239 Speaker 2: types of motives together and that's how it played out. 683 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:38,000 Speaker 2: And Junior was greedy. He probably hated White and had 684 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:43,320 Speaker 2: the connections with the brothers to ask them to commit 685 00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:47,520 Speaker 2: this crime. And it's notable that these brothers are really 686 00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:52,479 Speaker 2: in the same demographic social status as Nap, and that's 687 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:57,719 Speaker 2: generally what you see. Nap Junior probably isn't going into 688 00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:02,399 Speaker 2: a let's say, a very import crime ridden area and 689 00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:06,240 Speaker 2: trying to find, you know, some criminal within this environment 690 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:08,640 Speaker 2: that he doesn't fit in and doesn't understand. 691 00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:11,120 Speaker 1: He wants the rich troublemakers. 692 00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:13,160 Speaker 2: There you go. Yeah, he probably thought about who do 693 00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:16,680 Speaker 2: I know that I'm fairly confident they would be willing 694 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:20,839 Speaker 2: to commit this crime with sufficient motivation, which would probably be, Hey, 695 00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:22,680 Speaker 2: you go commit this crime, and when I get my 696 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:26,080 Speaker 2: share of White's assets, I'll give you x amount. 697 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:29,319 Speaker 1: Well, I have a little PostScript for you. I know 698 00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:32,719 Speaker 1: you always, I know you always appreciate these. I like 699 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:36,240 Speaker 1: a good ironic twist and this is a little sad. 700 00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:40,400 Speaker 1: So the motivation for this that will. We remember that 701 00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:44,640 Speaker 1: Joe Napp snuck into the mansion, opened up the lock box, 702 00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:48,400 Speaker 1: found the will, took it and destroyed it because he 703 00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:52,279 Speaker 1: thought he would destroy the will, then White would die, 704 00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:55,800 Speaker 1: and then in testate they would just split everything between 705 00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:59,160 Speaker 1: you know, Stephen White and ultimately his wife. So what 706 00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:02,880 Speaker 1: Joe Napp did no is that Captain White was smart 707 00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:05,640 Speaker 1: enough to make a copy. He kept it in the 708 00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:09,799 Speaker 1: office of his lawyer. And in that version, which Joe 709 00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:14,400 Speaker 1: Napp didn't know existed, Mary was out and Stephen White 710 00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:17,600 Speaker 1: got most of it. So it didn't do him one 711 00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:21,320 Speaker 1: bit of good. Even if he had gotten away with it, 712 00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:24,879 Speaker 1: it just meant that Stephen White got basically everything. Yeah, 713 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:28,879 Speaker 1: isn't that ironic? I mean, how terrible that old man 714 00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:32,000 Speaker 1: died for nothing? Really? I mean, I know it wouldn't 715 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:35,080 Speaker 1: have been satisfying if Mary had gotten in any of 716 00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,760 Speaker 1: the money. But if he had known that, I would 717 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:41,920 Speaker 1: guess Joe Napp would not have killed Captain White. 718 00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:45,360 Speaker 2: Yeah. Initially my thought is when you start talking about 719 00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:48,759 Speaker 2: this idea of well, if there's no will, then you know, 720 00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:52,120 Speaker 2: they'll just evenly split up the assets between the you know, 721 00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:54,799 Speaker 2: the the family members, and so Joe wouldn't diirectly end 722 00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:58,000 Speaker 2: up having become very wealthy. It's just like I was 723 00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:02,400 Speaker 2: initially thinking, why why not just do a forgery and 724 00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:05,160 Speaker 2: put it back in, you know, and have the old 725 00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:09,640 Speaker 2: man killed. And that way now Mary's getting everything. You know. 726 00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:12,840 Speaker 2: Maybe that's too direct, becomes too obvious. But back in 727 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:15,719 Speaker 2: the eighteen thirties, forgery detection I think would have been 728 00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:16,560 Speaker 2: very primitive. 729 00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:20,000 Speaker 1: Well, I wonder if the timeline was too much for him, 730 00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:23,640 Speaker 1: because he snuck in four days before the murder, So 731 00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:26,120 Speaker 1: I wonder if it was just too much of a 732 00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:28,719 Speaker 1: not hassle. But you're right, I mean, he could have 733 00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,399 Speaker 1: forged the will. But what if the timing were off. 734 00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:33,799 Speaker 1: What if the night before he was killed there was 735 00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,360 Speaker 1: an hour and a half. Captain White seemed like the 736 00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:38,319 Speaker 1: kind of guy who was checking on his money and 737 00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:40,920 Speaker 1: his fortune in his lock box a lot. So what 738 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:45,040 Speaker 1: if he saw this forgery and immediately sounded the alarm. Here, 739 00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:47,560 Speaker 1: I'm just trying to think of if it was too 740 00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:50,160 Speaker 1: risky from Joe Knapp's point of view to do that. 741 00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:51,160 Speaker 1: It's a good thought. 742 00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:53,799 Speaker 2: Though, yeah, you know, and he may not have any 743 00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:56,319 Speaker 2: knowledge of a copy being at Attorney's office. But if 744 00:42:56,360 --> 00:43:00,719 Speaker 2: it's a sufficiently good forgery, the argument is, as you 745 00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:04,440 Speaker 2: see all the time, well, which will is the true will? Yeap? 746 00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:09,120 Speaker 1: Well, what a story. And I'm leaving you now with 747 00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,680 Speaker 1: this story as we head into our two week Christmas break, 748 00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:15,520 Speaker 1: which I think is well earned. At least you've earned it. 749 00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:18,520 Speaker 2: I don't know if you know you've earned it more 750 00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:21,120 Speaker 2: than I just sit here and listen to you tell stories. 751 00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:22,160 Speaker 2: I don't know how you do it. 752 00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:26,239 Speaker 1: I love a good story, so it's a pleasure. But 753 00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:28,960 Speaker 1: I hope you have a wonderful winter break, get a 754 00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:31,759 Speaker 1: lot of rest, because I'm gonna have a slew of complicated, 755 00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:35,960 Speaker 1: stressful You're gonna need like nineteen kava drinks to get through. 756 00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:38,920 Speaker 2: Oh this, this may be more than Cova. This may 757 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:41,480 Speaker 2: end up having to be some bourbon stories coming up. 758 00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:46,480 Speaker 1: Bourbon. Oh gosh, okay, very good. We'll have a wonderful 759 00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:49,000 Speaker 1: couple of weeks off for the holidays and I'll see 760 00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:49,239 Speaker 1: you then. 761 00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:50,879 Speaker 2: All right, you two, k take care. 762 00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:58,520 Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for our sources 763 00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:01,720 Speaker 1: and show notes go to exactly rightemedia dot com slash 764 00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:05,680 Speaker 1: Buried Bones sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi. 765 00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:10,600 Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson. 766 00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:12,759 Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer, is Ben Tolliday. 767 00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:15,359 Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel. 768 00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:17,640 Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac. 769 00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:22,040 Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer. 770 00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:25,680 Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at 771 00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:26,560 Speaker 1: Barry Bones. 772 00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:29,560 Speaker 2: Pod Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a 773 00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:31,880 Speaker 2: Gilded Age story of murder and the race to decode 774 00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:34,200 Speaker 2: the criminal mind, is available now, and 775 00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:39,080 Speaker 1: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's cold Cases, 776 00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:40,439 Speaker 1: is also available now