WEBVTT - Summer Break: Laverne Cox 0:00:02.120 --> 0:00:05.560 Hi, Brian, Hi Katie at Hello, dear listeners. While we're 0:00:05.600 --> 0:00:07.960 officially in the dog days of summer, I don't know 0:00:08.000 --> 0:00:11.799 where that expression came from. Dog days of summer we are, 0:00:11.880 --> 0:00:14.680 I don't know how it quite happened, but we're already 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:16.840 into August. I can't believe it. You know what? The 0:00:16.880 --> 0:00:20.360 summer always reminds me of, Brian. I think I have 0:00:20.440 --> 0:00:25.239 a guess. Some are loving had me a last sum 0:00:25.320 --> 0:00:30.440 are loving? Happened so fast? Met a girl cute as 0:00:30.520 --> 0:00:36.720 can be meta by crazy for me, you have like 0:00:36.800 --> 0:00:40.440 Phofo Gigio. That's an excellent reference. Did you have a 0:00:40.479 --> 0:00:45.320 lot of summer romances, Katie? No, not really, Actually, maybe 0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:47.800 a few, But that song goes out to my hubby 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:50.000 each on Mulnar Hi Mulner. He might not like the 0:00:50.040 --> 0:00:52.640 line that had happened so fast, but that's another story. 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:57.560 Any who. We're not putting out new episodes for the 0:00:57.560 --> 0:00:59.440 rest of August, but as we mentioned in the last 0:00:59.440 --> 0:01:01.880 week's show, we didn't want to leave you guys completely hanging, 0:01:02.000 --> 0:01:05.560 so we're revisiting some of our favorite conversations from the podcast, 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:09.160 and we also have a surprise podcast up our sleeve 0:01:09.560 --> 0:01:12.080 that we really think you're gonna like very exciting to 0:01:12.160 --> 0:01:14.679 kick off our greatest hit series. We're going to return 0:01:14.760 --> 0:01:17.959 to our interview with actress and activists and one of 0:01:17.959 --> 0:01:21.080 my favorite people, one of the smartest people I've ever met, actually, 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:24.000 Laverne Cox. Like a lot of people, I was first 0:01:24.080 --> 0:01:26.920 introduced to Laverne in her role as Sophia in the 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:30.240 Netflix show Orange Is the New Black, which, by the way, 0:01:30.280 --> 0:01:33.640 released it's sixth season just a few weeks ago. Now, 0:01:33.640 --> 0:01:35.880 if you're familiar with Laverne, you may also know that 0:01:35.920 --> 0:01:39.520 she is transgender. In fact, she's the first openly trans 0:01:39.560 --> 0:01:43.080 person ever nominated for an Emmy for her role as Sophia. 0:01:43.640 --> 0:01:46.680 That's right, And Laverne is also a prominent spokeswoman and 0:01:46.840 --> 0:01:50.520 advocate for LGBT rights, and Katie, she helped inspire you 0:01:50.880 --> 0:01:54.400 to make your documentary Gender Revolution, if I remember correct, 0:01:54.480 --> 0:01:57.240 That's right, she did, and she was so loving in 0:01:57.280 --> 0:02:01.040 the process when a lot of people were very critical, 0:02:01.080 --> 0:02:03.400 and I'll always be grateful for that. We're going to 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:06.200 get into that during the course of our conversation. And 0:02:06.240 --> 0:02:10.560 if you're unfamiliar with transgender issues or you're still learning 0:02:10.760 --> 0:02:16.000 what it means to be transgender, your gender or gender nonconforming, 0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:20.960 non binary. There are all sorts of new vernacular about this, yeah, 0:02:21.160 --> 0:02:23.640 and I was new to most of these issues. So 0:02:23.720 --> 0:02:26.600 Gender Revolution really is a remarkable documentary. I'm not just 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:28.519 saying this is your friend, and I encourage all of 0:02:28.560 --> 0:02:30.880 our listeners to go watch it if you haven't already, 0:02:31.120 --> 0:02:34.240 or you could check out the corresponding episode of this 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:37.639 podcast where we interviewed some of the folks from my documentary. 0:02:37.680 --> 0:02:42.480 That's episode nineteen from back in February of two thousand seventeen. God, 0:02:42.520 --> 0:02:45.280 we've been doing this a long time, we have. Anyway, 0:02:45.280 --> 0:02:47.919 When we interviewed Laverne earlier, we covered a lot of ground. 0:02:47.960 --> 0:02:50.880 We talked about what it was like growing up in Mobile, Alabama, 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:54.840 Horiz to fame transgender roles in Hollywood. Laverne was especially 0:02:54.840 --> 0:02:58.960 excited about the then upcoming TV show Pose on FX, 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:03.080 which explore is New York City's ballroom community in the nineties, 0:03:03.320 --> 0:03:05.480 and that show, by the way, has since come out 0:03:05.600 --> 0:03:08.400 to rave reviews, so she had a reason to be excited. 0:03:08.400 --> 0:03:10.720 We also talked a lot about the Me Too movement 0:03:11.160 --> 0:03:14.320 because it was sort of in full bloom when we 0:03:14.360 --> 0:03:17.720 had our conversation and In the last several months, Laverne 0:03:17.840 --> 0:03:20.880 sure has been busy. She sure has Brian. She hosted 0:03:20.960 --> 0:03:24.880 the lifetime beauty competition show glam Masters. She also released 0:03:24.919 --> 0:03:27.920 a dance club song called Beat for the Gods. Hey, 0:03:28.000 --> 0:03:31.120 she stole my song. And when we spoke earlier this year, 0:03:31.320 --> 0:03:34.200 Laverne and I began by talking about how the two 0:03:34.240 --> 0:03:44.000 of us first met a few years back. We have 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:48.320 an interesting back story, if you will, so just for 0:03:48.360 --> 0:03:50.640 our listeners, and I'm not embarrassed to talk about it 0:03:50.680 --> 0:03:53.800 because I think it's important to ollan the fact that 0:03:53.840 --> 0:03:56.160 I screwed up and what I learned from my mistakes 0:03:56.200 --> 0:03:58.960 with your help. But a few years ago on my 0:03:59.040 --> 0:04:02.440 talk show is doing something with the right spirit of 0:04:02.440 --> 0:04:06.760 trying to help people understand transgender issues, which really wasn't 0:04:06.760 --> 0:04:09.160 being talked about very much at that moment in time. 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:12.320 I think was back in two thousand and fourteen, and 0:04:12.840 --> 0:04:14.880 now four years ago. I know it isn't that crazy. 0:04:15.000 --> 0:04:18.080 Years ago this on this month. It aired four years 0:04:18.080 --> 0:04:20.800 ago this month, well, Carmen Career came on the show 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:25.000 Carmen Career as a trans model, and she was interested 0:04:25.160 --> 0:04:29.720 in being the first Victoria's Secrets trans model. And she 0:04:29.880 --> 0:04:34.120 came on and in a very awkward and inappropriate moment, 0:04:34.200 --> 0:04:37.479 I asked her about her private parts. You're still your 0:04:37.600 --> 0:04:41.880 your Your private parts are different now, aren't they. I 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:44.400 don't want to talk about it because it's it's it's 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:49.400 really personal, and I don't know. I didn't quite understand 0:04:49.480 --> 0:04:52.719 how offensive that was to someone. Of course, it would 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:55.680 be offensive if someone asked me, and clearly it was 0:04:55.800 --> 0:04:59.839 offensive to Carmen of you know, understandably. So Laverne saved 0:04:59.839 --> 0:05:03.240 the day and came out and we had a conversation 0:05:03.240 --> 0:05:06.400 about it. But it really exploded in the trans community. 0:05:06.440 --> 0:05:09.599 People were really upset about it, angry with me, and 0:05:09.680 --> 0:05:14.320 it was mortifying and I was so embarrassed. And later 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:17.640 on in the season, Laverne came back and we actually 0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:21.720 sat down and had a long conversation about why that 0:05:21.800 --> 0:05:24.920 was so inappropriate. And I remember the producers, Laverne, they 0:05:24.960 --> 0:05:26.760 did not want me to do that. They were like, no, 0:05:26.920 --> 0:05:29.400 don't talk about it. I said, no, I want to 0:05:29.440 --> 0:05:32.520 talk about it. Tell me your impressions when you saw 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:38.039 Twitter exploding with all that venom towards me. I'm just 0:05:38.080 --> 0:05:42.040 curious what your reaction was, Katie. Oh, it was it's 0:05:42.080 --> 0:05:45.080 such as that was an intense timing you're taking me back. 0:05:45.120 --> 0:05:49.760 First of all, I want to say that publicist producers 0:05:49.800 --> 0:05:52.320 often say don't talk about something and that, and that 0:05:52.400 --> 0:05:55.240 if you talk about an issue that controversy, that it 0:05:55.360 --> 0:05:59.880 sort of perpetuates, and so but then when you don't 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:02.320 talk about it, then there we don't really get a 0:06:02.400 --> 0:06:04.320 chance to have the educational moment. We don't get to 0:06:04.320 --> 0:06:06.479 have the teachable moment, as the way you you put 0:06:06.560 --> 0:06:10.080 it at the time. And so I was so excited 0:06:10.120 --> 0:06:12.240 that you were willing and open to talk about it. 0:06:12.240 --> 0:06:14.800 And I think about the moments I've had because we 0:06:14.920 --> 0:06:18.400 think when you're a public figure, you're constantly putting yourself 0:06:18.400 --> 0:06:20.839 out there, and you're going to quote unquote make mistakes 0:06:20.960 --> 0:06:25.839 or get things wrong and upset people, and that's deeply, 0:06:25.960 --> 0:06:29.080 deeply painful. And I felt that. I felt that even 0:06:29.080 --> 0:06:31.000 though we weren't talking, I felt like how painful it 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:33.560 was for you um to be going through that and 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:36.359 to have the courage to be on television and to 0:06:36.440 --> 0:06:38.800 say I made a mistake and what can we do 0:06:38.880 --> 0:06:41.720 to rectify that? It's like so hard to do and 0:06:41.800 --> 0:06:44.640 it's so painful. But I think that and I, as 0:06:44.760 --> 0:06:46.760 you saw the speech I made in London at the 0:06:46.760 --> 0:06:49.839 Attitude Awards about how that's for me, feels like this 0:06:49.920 --> 0:06:51.960 model of how we can go forward. It's going to 0:06:52.080 --> 0:06:55.159 be painful, it's going to hurt, but if we can 0:06:55.400 --> 0:06:58.919 be accountable and be teachable, then we can begin to 0:06:59.000 --> 0:07:02.080 model that for other ball So when it all happened, 0:07:02.080 --> 0:07:04.839 though at the time, what was exciting for me is 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:07.680 that my whole life I've been watching UM TV talks, 0:07:07.880 --> 0:07:10.800 have done presentations about TV talk shows that have since 0:07:10.840 --> 0:07:14.400 the fifties and sixties have having conversations about trans people 0:07:14.440 --> 0:07:17.320 and reduced, not even necessarily reducing us to surgeries and 0:07:17.320 --> 0:07:21.000 transition and body parts. But what I said on the 0:07:21.000 --> 0:07:22.840 show is when we focus on that, that becomes the 0:07:22.880 --> 0:07:26.560 only takeaway. But because because it sensationalizes our identities, and 0:07:26.760 --> 0:07:29.520 having watched those interviews over the years, and I've never 0:07:29.520 --> 0:07:33.520 really seen anyone on television pushed back and say maybe 0:07:33.560 --> 0:07:35.600 we should be having a different conversation. So what was 0:07:35.640 --> 0:07:38.680 really exciting for me is that Carmen and I got 0:07:38.680 --> 0:07:41.160 the opportunity to UM to talk back and say maybe 0:07:41.200 --> 0:07:43.560 we should be having a different conversation. And so I 0:07:43.600 --> 0:07:47.680 think when I saw Twitter exploding. What was exciting for 0:07:47.760 --> 0:07:51.560 me is is that because of social media and because 0:07:51.600 --> 0:07:53.160 of that moment, Carmen and I were able to have 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:55.480 with you because you we pre shot that, so you 0:07:55.520 --> 0:07:57.960 don't actually have to air that, right. That's that's that's 0:07:58.000 --> 0:08:04.640 actually a little interesting factoid about the whole situation. You know, 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:08.360 my producer said, do you want to take that out? 0:08:08.600 --> 0:08:11.560 Because you know it made me look foolish and and 0:08:11.560 --> 0:08:14.840 and deservedly so, and I said, no, keep it in 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:18.400 because I think it's maybe a question that other people 0:08:18.440 --> 0:08:20.760 would have asked or at least thought about. And I 0:08:20.800 --> 0:08:24.320 want people to understand that being a trans person is 0:08:24.400 --> 0:08:27.240 much more than your anatomy, you know, it has has 0:08:27.360 --> 0:08:29.800 very little to do with it. And of course I've 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:33.120 been so educated since Laverne because of my documentary. But 0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:36.360 I also think the conversation has changed. I feel, I mean, 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:40.160 certainly there's there people have there's still an educational thing 0:08:40.440 --> 0:08:44.040 that still needs to happen around transpos to something misunderstandings 0:08:44.040 --> 0:08:47.199 and misconceptions about it. But I feel like with journalists 0:08:47.240 --> 0:08:50.800 now it's different. I feel it's really different, and so 0:08:51.040 --> 0:08:55.080 that moment feels really pivotal and I'm I'm so grateful 0:08:55.120 --> 0:08:57.280 to you for that moment. I'm grateful that you didn't 0:08:57.360 --> 0:08:59.640 edit it out. I'm grateful to the community who pushed back. 0:08:59.679 --> 0:09:02.120 And I'm sure it was really painful for you the 0:09:02.200 --> 0:09:06.160 way in which some some folks in my community pushed back. Um, 0:09:06.200 --> 0:09:09.720 but sometimes that's the necessary part of it, is I mean, 0:09:09.760 --> 0:09:12.079 it is interesting when it comes to a social movement 0:09:12.200 --> 0:09:15.160 sort of you have to bottle up and release that anger, 0:09:15.360 --> 0:09:17.360 and I think it's part of the process. But I 0:09:17.400 --> 0:09:19.840 so appreciate it. You mentioned that speech that you gave 0:09:19.920 --> 0:09:23.560 it the Attitudes Inspiration Award last fall. We actually pulled 0:09:23.559 --> 0:09:25.640 a clip because it was so nice and I was 0:09:25.679 --> 0:09:28.120 so grateful of Earns. So let's listen for a second. 0:09:28.640 --> 0:09:31.640 It is important that we begin to look for models 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:35.120 of transformation and encourage that. And when the way we 0:09:35.200 --> 0:09:37.320 got there with Katie is it I was willing to 0:09:37.400 --> 0:09:41.520 have conversations with her with love and empathy. I do 0:09:41.600 --> 0:09:44.319 not believe that we can get to that transformation by 0:09:44.400 --> 0:09:50.360 publicly shaming people. And so for people who didn't watch 0:09:50.679 --> 0:09:54.160 these shows and didn't follow this controversy as closely as 0:09:54.200 --> 0:09:56.880 some did, particularly in the trans community, what do you 0:09:56.880 --> 0:09:59.480 think of the key lessons that people who are not 0:09:59.559 --> 0:10:03.520 trans can take away from that back and forth. For 0:10:03.600 --> 0:10:06.120 people who aren't trans, I mean, I think, I mean, 0:10:06.160 --> 0:10:09.800 there's so many things, um part of part of it, 0:10:09.840 --> 0:10:12.280 I think is the love and empathy piece that's so 0:10:12.360 --> 0:10:16.160 often every what I've learned, especially over the last years, 0:10:16.160 --> 0:10:18.920 that not everyone is coming from a place of good intentions. 0:10:19.040 --> 0:10:20.440 I think with Katie, it was clear that you were 0:10:20.559 --> 0:10:22.600 you do have great good intentions, and it's got some 0:10:22.679 --> 0:10:25.800 things a little off. And so then when the intentions 0:10:25.800 --> 0:10:27.720 are clear, that we can begin to approach people with 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:31.839 love and empathy and find ways to indicate our message better. 0:10:31.960 --> 0:10:35.280 And I'm sure with that approach, I mean, can you 0:10:35.440 --> 0:10:39.000 feel when you change hearts and minds? Do people say 0:10:39.000 --> 0:10:41.559 to you, you know, thank you? I under I mean, 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:44.360 I I've been one of those people. Can you see 0:10:45.360 --> 0:10:48.560 their hearts opening up and their minds changing with this 0:10:48.600 --> 0:10:52.000 approach I have? I have, and and learning doesn't always 0:10:52.040 --> 0:10:55.319 happen in the moment. It often it's incremental. But I think, 0:10:55.960 --> 0:10:57.400 I mean, part of what I get to do as 0:10:57.400 --> 0:10:59.560 an artist too, is that when you as an actor, 0:10:59.840 --> 0:11:02.880 that's the work of being an actor is having empathy 0:11:03.080 --> 0:11:05.440 having empathy for a character characters that I play. I 0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:08.679 can never sort of approach a character with like I 0:11:08.720 --> 0:11:10.880 don't like this person. I always have to find a way, 0:11:10.920 --> 0:11:13.560 even if the character has done some reprehensible things, to 0:11:14.280 --> 0:11:17.959 empathize with her, um and find a way in So 0:11:18.559 --> 0:11:20.679 that's the work of being an artist is to is 0:11:20.760 --> 0:11:23.719 to have empathy and love for the characters I play 0:11:23.760 --> 0:11:26.320 and to hopefully convey that to audiences. And so that's 0:11:26.320 --> 0:11:28.160 the work that I do as an artist, and so 0:11:28.200 --> 0:11:31.320 I think that hopefully we'll translate into the work I 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:34.200 do elsewhere. Being an artist is what informs everything that 0:11:34.280 --> 0:11:38.240 I do. And UM, there's a legacy of revolutionary artists, 0:11:38.280 --> 0:11:42.400 progressive artists, through their work and their activism, have proceeded 0:11:42.440 --> 0:11:45.160 that way, and so I have a wonderful legacy to 0:11:45.200 --> 0:11:49.480 look to. We've seen a similar journey of understanding happen 0:11:49.679 --> 0:11:53.760 around the issue of marriage equality. UM, understanding around trans 0:11:53.840 --> 0:11:56.600 issues probably a little bit behind where marriage quality is, 0:11:57.320 --> 0:12:00.720 but that was maybe the fastest so shall change in 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:03.599 America than anybody can remember. Part of it had to 0:12:03.640 --> 0:12:07.200 do with the change in calling and marriage equality as 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:09.760 opposed to gay marriage. How you talk about it, how 0:12:09.840 --> 0:12:13.400 you kind of find the way into people who are 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:17.480 maybe instinctually not as understanding or haven't come across these 0:12:17.480 --> 0:12:21.240 people as much as you know, as much as some others. Um, 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:25.240 do you think there are things that the trans community 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:27.760 has done or still needs to do in order to 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:31.360 make further progress. There's a lot that we have to do. 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:33.960 And um, there's fewer trans people than there are a 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:38.360 game lesbian people. Um. The way, the way you've alluded 0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:40.480 to change in the conversation from quote unquote gay marriage 0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:44.160 to marriage equality. Having the conversation differently it's key, and 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:46.040 that's a lot of what I'm the work that I'm 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:48.280 trying to do is to shape the conversation in a 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:50.560 different way. But I mean, trans people are under attack 0:12:50.720 --> 0:12:54.600 right now in this country. There's we've connect there's just 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:57.560 the list of like really legislative things that are happening, 0:12:57.600 --> 0:13:00.560 policy things that are happening around with ending of guidelines 0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:04.839 for trans kids. Um, anti trans bathroom bills introduced in 0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:07.960 state legislatures all over the country. Transfolk Stum, there's a 0:13:07.960 --> 0:13:09.319 fight for us to be able to serve openly in 0:13:09.360 --> 0:13:12.400 the military right now. Um. It really it goes on 0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:14.920 and on and on. There's seventeen with the dead last 0:13:14.960 --> 0:13:17.920 year on record for trans people in terms of being murdered. Um, 0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:19.720 our lives are on the line. So a lot of 0:13:19.720 --> 0:13:22.760 it is about it's an intersectional issue. So when we 0:13:22.760 --> 0:13:25.679 talk about trans stuff, and it gets complicated because it's 0:13:25.720 --> 0:13:27.880 not just a gender thing, it's a race thing, it's 0:13:27.920 --> 0:13:30.280 a class thing. It's an access to education, it's an 0:13:30.280 --> 0:13:33.240 access to housing and jobs, and so all of those 0:13:33.280 --> 0:13:35.880 things sort of are diminishing our left dances. Sexual assault. 0:13:36.080 --> 0:13:38.000 I was going to say, it's it's a crime thing, 0:13:38.360 --> 0:13:40.440 and I want to talk about intersexuality. I want to 0:13:40.440 --> 0:13:44.280 talk about sort of being under assault in this Trump administration, 0:13:44.440 --> 0:13:46.920 in the current policy in a second. But before we 0:13:46.960 --> 0:13:50.520 do that, Laverne, I want to talk about your story, 0:13:50.640 --> 0:13:54.680 your life story, because it's so fascinating and I'm sure 0:13:55.080 --> 0:13:58.480 was harrowin when you were younger. You were born in Mobile, 0:13:59.760 --> 0:14:02.400 you were raised by a single mom. You never met 0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:06.160 your dad. Um, I met my dad once. You did 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:08.559 when you were how old? Um? I think I was 0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:11.040 in third grade. I was in third grade. You remember that, 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:14.080 I do. I'm not going to talk about it, really, 0:14:15.040 --> 0:14:18.480 I think there's some things the whole circumstances leading up 0:14:18.480 --> 0:14:20.600 to that that we're really really painful. And I've worked 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:22.480 through all that with my mom, and so iud of 0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:24.200 respect to my mother and my family. I can't talk 0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:27.960 about all I totally understand. But yes, once I met 0:14:28.000 --> 0:14:31.120 my my biological father, you had and you have an 0:14:31.120 --> 0:14:35.400 identical twin brother, yes, and just just one brother, just 0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:39.200 one sibling. Yeah, And um, I'm just curious what it 0:14:39.280 --> 0:14:42.240 was like growing up. I think about you and Mobile Alabama. 0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:45.600 I know you attempted suicide when you were eleven years old. 0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:49.720 Paint a picture for us, Laverne about what life was like. 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:52.880 I mean, I have a lovely therapist now. She reminds 0:14:52.920 --> 0:14:55.520 me often that it's both and so like. Yes, I 0:14:55.600 --> 0:14:59.280 was bullied. Um, I was chased up from school tragically 0:14:59.320 --> 0:15:01.320 every day, and and kids wanted to beat me up. 0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:03.600 I got beaten up a lot. I was a very 0:15:03.600 --> 0:15:06.600 fast runner. I didn't feel safe anywhere. But I was 0:15:06.640 --> 0:15:10.520 also a really creative kid. I started dancing when I walked, 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:13.120 and I begged my mother to put me into dance classes, 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:14.560 and finally when I was in third grade, which she 0:15:14.640 --> 0:15:17.680 found a free program where I could study dance. And 0:15:17.840 --> 0:15:20.440 I believe that dancing saved my life. I didn't have 0:15:20.480 --> 0:15:23.600 Quarey wrap dance routines and like competed in talent shows 0:15:23.640 --> 0:15:26.120 all over the Southeast and there's still trophies in my 0:15:26.160 --> 0:15:30.120 house back in Alabama. He said, you have said it 0:15:30.240 --> 0:15:32.960 saved your life. Yeah, being creative and I was a 0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:37.080 good student. I've read constantly. We were walking distance from 0:15:37.080 --> 0:15:40.040 the Mobile Public Library, so I was at the library 0:15:40.040 --> 0:15:43.480 all the time reading. I was. I was a total nerd. 0:15:43.960 --> 0:15:47.320 As smart as you are. He's probably smarter, really, he's smarter. 0:15:47.640 --> 0:15:50.600 My brother is brilliant. He's really really smart. Um. And 0:15:50.680 --> 0:15:52.800 by the way, if you haven't watched or Just a 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:57.800 New Black, you can meet brother's definitely playing a character though. 0:15:57.840 --> 0:16:00.360 My brother is punk rock and god. He is. He 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:03.560 defines and find himself as a practicing homosexual who is 0:16:03.640 --> 0:16:07.120 Negro goth, punk rock, UM and a free black man. 0:16:07.520 --> 0:16:11.200 He's um, He's he's he's a musician and an artist 0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:14.320 and his work is very in Lamar is his name 0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:16.200 in lamar dot com. If people care about his work. 0:16:16.240 --> 0:16:18.320 He really sort of hates he hates that he didn't 0:16:18.320 --> 0:16:20.400 Orange A New Black because people it's so funny because 0:16:20.400 --> 0:16:23.280 if you google most famous, well known trans people. There's 0:16:23.480 --> 0:16:25.360 like before, people always want to see what trans people 0:16:25.400 --> 0:16:27.480 look like before. And people have a photo of my 0:16:27.560 --> 0:16:30.160 brother and then me side by side. I'm like, that's 0:16:30.280 --> 0:16:32.440 kind of hilarious. And they have a photo of him 0:16:32.480 --> 0:16:34.120 from ra just a new black and he doesn't even 0:16:34.160 --> 0:16:35.880 look like that in real lafe here it's like eyeliner 0:16:35.920 --> 0:16:38.400 or any long hair. But that's the character he played. 0:16:38.440 --> 0:16:41.080 That's the character he played. Yeah, my character pre transition. 0:16:41.600 --> 0:16:43.720 But but when when did you When did you start 0:16:43.880 --> 0:16:48.760 struggling with your gender identity? I do you? Do you 0:16:48.800 --> 0:16:52.520 remember from the very he didn't. It wasn't a struggle 0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:55.000 for me. It was a struggle for everybody else. I 0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:58.040 was all. I was always feminine, I was always you know, 0:16:58.280 --> 0:17:00.040 I really thought that boy, there was no difference in 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:01.520 boys and girls, cause everyone was telling me I was 0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:03.080 a boy, and I knew that I was a girl, 0:17:03.560 --> 0:17:05.560 so I didn't think there were any differences. And then 0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:08.160 there was a therapy moment in third grade. I've talked 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:09.840 about this little talked about this a lot. My third 0:17:09.840 --> 0:17:12.080 grade teacher, Miss Ridgeway. I called my mother on the 0:17:12.080 --> 0:17:13.439 phone and say, your son will end up in New 0:17:13.520 --> 0:17:15.000 Orleans wearing your dress if you don't get him into 0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:17.080 therapy right away. So I went to therapy and there 0:17:17.119 --> 0:17:19.159 was there was this whole sort of I guess we 0:17:19.200 --> 0:17:22.479 would call it reparative therapy around my gender expression at 0:17:22.480 --> 0:17:24.120 the time, that was trying to trying to fix me. 0:17:24.560 --> 0:17:26.880 And up until that time, I didn't think that there 0:17:27.040 --> 0:17:29.240 was really a difference between boys and girls. I knew 0:17:29.240 --> 0:17:33.040 that I was being bullied. I knew that people were um. 0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:36.600 People called me all kinds of anti gay slurs. They 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:39.040 called me a girl, and I think I said, said, 0:17:39.040 --> 0:17:41.119 the interesting the irony of my life is that before 0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:43.600 I transition, kids called me a girl, and after I transition, 0:17:43.640 --> 0:17:49.600 people call me a man um and so, my gosh, 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:52.320 it was just it was intense, but I feel like 0:17:52.359 --> 0:17:55.199 was everyone else's problem I And then it became and 0:17:55.200 --> 0:17:59.000 it's something I internalized. I internalized a tremendous amount of transphobia, 0:17:59.200 --> 0:18:00.840 and I was like, I can't be this. And it 0:18:00.840 --> 0:18:02.640 wasn't until I moved to New York and met real 0:18:02.680 --> 0:18:05.640 trans people that I was able to accept trans people 0:18:05.640 --> 0:18:07.679 and then accept myself. But it was a problem for 0:18:07.720 --> 0:18:11.240 everybody else. Lean Team Price my idol, She's an Offer singer, 0:18:11.240 --> 0:18:13.480 and she when she talks about race, she said, it's 0:18:13.520 --> 0:18:17.000 not it's not the black people's problem, it's everybody else's problem. 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:19.000 And that's really how I see it with with the 0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:21.320 gender stuff. And I think for for me, I had 0:18:21.400 --> 0:18:24.600 to sort of get find access to medical care and 0:18:24.600 --> 0:18:28.119 find ways to survive because it's hard. It's as smart 0:18:28.160 --> 0:18:29.840 as you think I might be. I was working in 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:32.680 a restaurant, a drag queen restaurant before Orange a New 0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:35.920 Black sort of became a sensation and in New York City, 0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:37.679 and I have a college degree, and I was writing, 0:18:37.720 --> 0:18:39.399 you know, articles for Huffing Compost and I kind of 0:18:39.440 --> 0:18:41.159 a smart chick. But a lot of people wouldn't have 0:18:41.240 --> 0:18:43.840 hired me. You know, I couldn't really get a job. 0:18:44.160 --> 0:18:45.800 There's a lot of people who wouldn't have hired me 0:18:46.080 --> 0:18:48.879 as brilliant as I might seem. Um, And there's a 0:18:48.880 --> 0:18:51.960 lot there's a lot of trans people out there who 0:18:51.960 --> 0:18:54.960 are brilliant who can't get jobs because they're trans. And 0:18:55.000 --> 0:18:57.359 you were inspired at least in part by a trans 0:18:57.400 --> 0:19:00.800 woman named Candice Kane. For people in audience who don't 0:19:00.840 --> 0:19:03.280 know who she is, can you describe her and tell 0:19:03.320 --> 0:19:05.520 her tell us the impact she had in your life. 0:19:05.880 --> 0:19:09.080 Candice Kane. I love Candice Kane. Um She's a New 0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:12.200 York City legend, and she's a trans woman. And a 0:19:12.240 --> 0:19:14.680 lot of people got to know horn Caitlyn Jenner's reality 0:19:14.680 --> 0:19:16.440 show I Am Kate. But before that, in two thousand 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:20.080 and seven, she became the first openly transgender actress to 0:19:20.200 --> 0:19:21.960 have a recurring role in a prime time TV show. 0:19:21.960 --> 0:19:24.160 And that show is Dirty, Sexy Money. That was eleven 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:27.639 years ago, and that moment made me believe that it 0:19:27.720 --> 0:19:29.800 was possible to be openly trance and have a career 0:19:29.800 --> 0:19:31.399 as an actor. I've been at this point, I had 0:19:31.400 --> 0:19:35.120 a degree in dance. I studied acting in dance in college. 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:37.760 I had done a number of independent films and been 0:19:37.920 --> 0:19:39.840 and just been going to acting class every week, you know, 0:19:39.920 --> 0:19:42.440 and turning I in turned to student Susan Batson studio 0:19:42.480 --> 0:19:44.600 in New York City, and I mopped the floors and 0:19:44.680 --> 0:19:47.280 answered the phone. So I can get acting classes for free. 0:19:47.640 --> 0:19:51.119 Thank you, Susan. It's had a little scholarship, and so 0:19:51.160 --> 0:19:53.760 I it was being an actress something I've been. I 0:19:53.760 --> 0:19:56.280 committed myself to, you know, just and just doing the 0:19:56.320 --> 0:19:58.680 grind in New York doing the off off Broadway theater 0:19:58.800 --> 0:20:00.639 or student films or what. But I could do just 0:20:00.720 --> 0:20:03.320 to work. And when I saw that moment from Candice, 0:20:03.359 --> 0:20:05.919 I was like, this is the moment and that I 0:20:05.960 --> 0:20:08.720 sent out postcards. I love this story. By the way, 0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:11.520 was this sending out postcards from New York or from mobile? 0:20:11.720 --> 0:20:13.480 It was I was in New York, Okay, so it's 0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:15.520 already in New York. I went to college in New 0:20:15.560 --> 0:20:19.480 York and UM sent out postcards to agents and casting director. 0:20:19.520 --> 0:20:22.040 It's like five And I was like, Laburne Cox is 0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:23.760 the answer to all your transgender acting, because I mean 0:20:23.800 --> 0:20:25.639 there was sort of a niche for being trans and 0:20:25.680 --> 0:20:28.199