Speaker 1: Hi, Brian, Hi Katie at Hello, dear listeners. While we're
Speaker 1: officially in the dog days of summer, I don't know
Speaker 1: where that expression came from. Dog days of summer we are,
Speaker 1: I don't know how it quite happened, but we're already
Speaker 1: into August. I can't believe it. You know what? The
Speaker 1: summer always reminds me of, Brian. I think I have
Speaker 1: a guess. Some are loving had me a last sum
Speaker 1: are loving? Happened so fast? Met a girl cute as
Speaker 1: can be meta by crazy for me, you have like
Speaker 1: Phofo Gigio. That's an excellent reference. Did you have a
Speaker 1: lot of summer romances, Katie? No, not really, Actually, maybe
Speaker 1: a few, But that song goes out to my hubby
Speaker 1: each on Mulnar Hi Mulner. He might not like the
Speaker 1: line that had happened so fast, but that's another story.
Speaker 1: Any who. We're not putting out new episodes for the
Speaker 1: rest of August, but as we mentioned in the last
Speaker 1: week's show, we didn't want to leave you guys completely hanging,
Speaker 1: so we're revisiting some of our favorite conversations from the podcast,
Speaker 1: and we also have a surprise podcast up our sleeve
Speaker 1: that we really think you're gonna like very exciting to
Speaker 1: kick off our greatest hit series. We're going to return
Speaker 1: to our interview with actress and activists and one of
Speaker 1: my favorite people, one of the smartest people I've ever met, actually,
Speaker 1: Laverne Cox. Like a lot of people, I was first
Speaker 1: introduced to Laverne in her role as Sophia in the
Speaker 1: Netflix show Orange Is the New Black, which, by the way,
Speaker 1: released it's sixth season just a few weeks ago. Now,
Speaker 1: if you're familiar with Laverne, you may also know that
Speaker 1: she is transgender. In fact, she's the first openly trans
Speaker 1: person ever nominated for an Emmy for her role as Sophia.
Speaker 1: That's right, And Laverne is also a prominent spokeswoman and
Speaker 1: advocate for LGBT rights, and Katie, she helped inspire you
Speaker 1: to make your documentary Gender Revolution, if I remember correct,
Speaker 1: That's right, she did, and she was so loving in
Speaker 1: the process when a lot of people were very critical,
Speaker 1: and I'll always be grateful for that. We're going to
Speaker 1: get into that during the course of our conversation. And
Speaker 1: if you're unfamiliar with transgender issues or you're still learning
Speaker 1: what it means to be transgender, your gender or gender nonconforming,
Speaker 1: non binary. There are all sorts of new vernacular about this, yeah,
Speaker 1: and I was new to most of these issues. So
Speaker 1: Gender Revolution really is a remarkable documentary. I'm not just
Speaker 1: saying this is your friend, and I encourage all of
Speaker 1: our listeners to go watch it if you haven't already,
Speaker 1: or you could check out the corresponding episode of this
Speaker 1: podcast where we interviewed some of the folks from my documentary.
Speaker 1: That's episode nineteen from back in February of two thousand seventeen. God,
Speaker 1: we've been doing this a long time, we have. Anyway,
Speaker 1: When we interviewed Laverne earlier, we covered a lot of ground.
Speaker 1: We talked about what it was like growing up in Mobile, Alabama,
Speaker 1: Horiz to fame transgender roles in Hollywood. Laverne was especially
Speaker 1: excited about the then upcoming TV show Pose on FX,
Speaker 1: which explore is New York City's ballroom community in the nineties,
Speaker 1: and that show, by the way, has since come out
Speaker 1: to rave reviews, so she had a reason to be excited.
Speaker 1: We also talked a lot about the Me Too movement
Speaker 1: because it was sort of in full bloom when we
Speaker 1: had our conversation and In the last several months, Laverne
Speaker 1: sure has been busy. She sure has Brian. She hosted
Speaker 1: the lifetime beauty competition show glam Masters. She also released
Speaker 1: a dance club song called Beat for the Gods. Hey,
Speaker 1: she stole my song. And when we spoke earlier this year,
Speaker 1: Laverne and I began by talking about how the two
Speaker 1: of us first met a few years back. We have
Speaker 1: an interesting back story, if you will, so just for
Speaker 1: our listeners, and I'm not embarrassed to talk about it
Speaker 1: because I think it's important to ollan the fact that
Speaker 1: I screwed up and what I learned from my mistakes
Speaker 1: with your help. But a few years ago on my
Speaker 1: talk show is doing something with the right spirit of
Speaker 1: trying to help people understand transgender issues, which really wasn't
Speaker 1: being talked about very much at that moment in time.
Speaker 1: I think was back in two thousand and fourteen, and
Speaker 1: now four years ago. I know it isn't that crazy.
Speaker 1: Years ago this on this month. It aired four years
Speaker 1: ago this month, well, Carmen Career came on the show
Speaker 1: Carmen Career as a trans model, and she was interested
Speaker 1: in being the first Victoria's Secrets trans model. And she
Speaker 1: came on and in a very awkward and inappropriate moment,
Speaker 1: I asked her about her private parts. You're still your
Speaker 1: your Your private parts are different now, aren't they. I
Speaker 1: don't want to talk about it because it's it's it's
Speaker 1: really personal, and I don't know. I didn't quite understand
Speaker 1: how offensive that was to someone. Of course, it would
Speaker 1: be offensive if someone asked me, and clearly it was
Speaker 1: offensive to Carmen of you know, understandably. So Laverne saved
Speaker 1: the day and came out and we had a conversation
Speaker 1: about it. But it really exploded in the trans community.
Speaker 1: People were really upset about it, angry with me, and
Speaker 1: it was mortifying and I was so embarrassed. And later
Speaker 1: on in the season, Laverne came back and we actually
Speaker 1: sat down and had a long conversation about why that
Speaker 1: was so inappropriate. And I remember the producers, Laverne, they
Speaker 1: did not want me to do that. They were like, no,
Speaker 1: don't talk about it. I said, no, I want to
Speaker 1: talk about it. Tell me your impressions when you saw
Speaker 1: Twitter exploding with all that venom towards me. I'm just
Speaker 1: curious what your reaction was, Katie. Oh, it was it's
Speaker 1: such as that was an intense timing you're taking me back.
Speaker 1: First of all, I want to say that publicist producers
Speaker 1: often say don't talk about something and that, and that
Speaker 1: if you talk about an issue that controversy, that it
Speaker 1: sort of perpetuates, and so but then when you don't
Speaker 1: talk about it, then there we don't really get a
Speaker 1: chance to have the educational moment. We don't get to
Speaker 1: have the teachable moment, as the way you you put
Speaker 1: it at the time. And so I was so excited
Speaker 1: that you were willing and open to talk about it.
Speaker 1: And I think about the moments I've had because we
Speaker 1: think when you're a public figure, you're constantly putting yourself
Speaker 1: out there, and you're going to quote unquote make mistakes
Speaker 1: or get things wrong and upset people, and that's deeply,
Speaker 1: deeply painful. And I felt that. I felt that even
Speaker 1: though we weren't talking, I felt like how painful it
Speaker 1: was for you um to be going through that and
Speaker 1: to have the courage to be on television and to
Speaker 1: say I made a mistake and what can we do
Speaker 1: to rectify that? It's like so hard to do and
Speaker 1: it's so painful. But I think that and I, as
Speaker 1: you saw the speech I made in London at the
Speaker 1: Attitude Awards about how that's for me, feels like this
Speaker 1: model of how we can go forward. It's going to
Speaker 1: be painful, it's going to hurt, but if we can
Speaker 1: be accountable and be teachable, then we can begin to
Speaker 1: model that for other ball So when it all happened,
Speaker 1: though at the time, what was exciting for me is
Speaker 1: that my whole life I've been watching UM TV talks,
Speaker 1: have done presentations about TV talk shows that have since
Speaker 1: the fifties and sixties have having conversations about trans people
Speaker 1: and reduced, not even necessarily reducing us to surgeries and
Speaker 1: transition and body parts. But what I said on the
Speaker 1: show is when we focus on that, that becomes the
Speaker 1: only takeaway. But because because it sensationalizes our identities, and
Speaker 1: having watched those interviews over the years, and I've never
Speaker 1: really seen anyone on television pushed back and say maybe
Speaker 1: we should be having a different conversation. So what was
Speaker 1: really exciting for me is that Carmen and I got
Speaker 1: the opportunity to UM to talk back and say maybe
Speaker 1: we should be having a different conversation. And so I
Speaker 1: think when I saw Twitter exploding. What was exciting for
Speaker 1: me is is that because of social media and because
Speaker 1: of that moment, Carmen and I were able to have
Speaker 1: with you because you we pre shot that, so you
Speaker 1: don't actually have to air that, right. That's that's that's
Speaker 1: actually a little interesting factoid about the whole situation. You know,
Speaker 1: my producer said, do you want to take that out?
Speaker 1: Because you know it made me look foolish and and
Speaker 1: and deservedly so, and I said, no, keep it in
Speaker 1: because I think it's maybe a question that other people
Speaker 1: would have asked or at least thought about. And I
Speaker 1: want people to understand that being a trans person is
Speaker 1: much more than your anatomy, you know, it has has
Speaker 1: very little to do with it. And of course I've
Speaker 1: been so educated since Laverne because of my documentary. But
Speaker 1: I also think the conversation has changed. I feel, I mean,
Speaker 1: certainly there's there people have there's still an educational thing
Speaker 1: that still needs to happen around transpos to something misunderstandings
Speaker 1: and misconceptions about it. But I feel like with journalists
Speaker 1: now it's different. I feel it's really different, and so
Speaker 1: that moment feels really pivotal and I'm I'm so grateful
Speaker 1: to you for that moment. I'm grateful that you didn't
Speaker 1: edit it out. I'm grateful to the community who pushed back.
Speaker 1: And I'm sure it was really painful for you the
Speaker 1: way in which some some folks in my community pushed back. Um,
Speaker 1: but sometimes that's the necessary part of it, is I mean,
Speaker 1: it is interesting when it comes to a social movement
Speaker 1: sort of you have to bottle up and release that anger,
Speaker 1: and I think it's part of the process. But I
Speaker 1: so appreciate it. You mentioned that speech that you gave
Speaker 1: it the Attitudes Inspiration Award last fall. We actually pulled
Speaker 1: a clip because it was so nice and I was
Speaker 1: so grateful of Earns. So let's listen for a second.
Speaker 1: It is important that we begin to look for models
Speaker 1: of transformation and encourage that. And when the way we
Speaker 1: got there with Katie is it I was willing to
Speaker 1: have conversations with her with love and empathy. I do
Speaker 1: not believe that we can get to that transformation by
Speaker 1: publicly shaming people. And so for people who didn't watch
Speaker 1: these shows and didn't follow this controversy as closely as
Speaker 1: some did, particularly in the trans community, what do you
Speaker 1: think of the key lessons that people who are not
Speaker 1: trans can take away from that back and forth. For
Speaker 1: people who aren't trans, I mean, I think, I mean,
Speaker 1: there's so many things, um part of part of it,
Speaker 1: I think is the love and empathy piece that's so
Speaker 1: often every what I've learned, especially over the last years,
Speaker 1: that not everyone is coming from a place of good intentions.
Speaker 1: I think with Katie, it was clear that you were
Speaker 1: you do have great good intentions, and it's got some
Speaker 1: things a little off. And so then when the intentions
Speaker 1: are clear, that we can begin to approach people with
Speaker 1: love and empathy and find ways to indicate our message better.
Speaker 1: And I'm sure with that approach, I mean, can you
Speaker 1: feel when you change hearts and minds? Do people say
Speaker 1: to you, you know, thank you? I under I mean,
Speaker 1: I I've been one of those people. Can you see
Speaker 1: their hearts opening up and their minds changing with this
Speaker 1: approach I have? I have, and and learning doesn't always
Speaker 1: happen in the moment. It often it's incremental. But I think,
Speaker 1: I mean, part of what I get to do as
Speaker 1: an artist too, is that when you as an actor,
Speaker 1: that's the work of being an actor is having empathy
Speaker 1: having empathy for a character characters that I play. I
Speaker 1: can never sort of approach a character with like I
Speaker 1: don't like this person. I always have to find a way,
Speaker 1: even if the character has done some reprehensible things, to
Speaker 1: empathize with her, um and find a way in So
Speaker 1: that's the work of being an artist is to is
Speaker 1: to have empathy and love for the characters I play
Speaker 1: and to hopefully convey that to audiences. And so that's
Speaker 1: the work that I do as an artist, and so
Speaker 1: I think that hopefully we'll translate into the work I
Speaker 1: do elsewhere. Being an artist is what informs everything that
Speaker 1: I do. And UM, there's a legacy of revolutionary artists,
Speaker 1: progressive artists, through their work and their activism, have proceeded
Speaker 1: that way, and so I have a wonderful legacy to
Speaker 1: look to. We've seen a similar journey of understanding happen
Speaker 1: around the issue of marriage equality. UM, understanding around trans
Speaker 1: issues probably a little bit behind where marriage quality is,
Speaker 1: but that was maybe the fastest so shall change in
Speaker 1: America than anybody can remember. Part of it had to
Speaker 1: do with the change in calling and marriage equality as
Speaker 1: opposed to gay marriage. How you talk about it, how
Speaker 1: you kind of find the way into people who are
Speaker 1: maybe instinctually not as understanding or haven't come across these
Speaker 1: people as much as you know, as much as some others. Um,
Speaker 1: do you think there are things that the trans community
Speaker 1: has done or still needs to do in order to
Speaker 1: make further progress. There's a lot that we have to do.
Speaker 1: And um, there's fewer trans people than there are a
Speaker 1: game lesbian people. Um. The way, the way you've alluded
Speaker 1: to change in the conversation from quote unquote gay marriage
Speaker 1: to marriage equality. Having the conversation differently it's key, and
Speaker 1: that's a lot of what I'm the work that I'm
Speaker 1: trying to do is to shape the conversation in a
Speaker 1: different way. But I mean, trans people are under attack
Speaker 1: right now in this country. There's we've connect there's just
Speaker 1: the list of like really legislative things that are happening,
Speaker 1: policy things that are happening around with ending of guidelines
Speaker 1: for trans kids. Um, anti trans bathroom bills introduced in
Speaker 1: state legislatures all over the country. Transfolk Stum, there's a
Speaker 1: fight for us to be able to serve openly in
Speaker 1: the military right now. Um. It really it goes on
Speaker 1: and on and on. There's seventeen with the dead last
Speaker 1: year on record for trans people in terms of being murdered. Um,
Speaker 1: our lives are on the line. So a lot of
Speaker 1: it is about it's an intersectional issue. So when we
Speaker 1: talk about trans stuff, and it gets complicated because it's
Speaker 1: not just a gender thing, it's a race thing, it's
Speaker 1: a class thing. It's an access to education, it's an
Speaker 1: access to housing and jobs, and so all of those
Speaker 1: things sort of are diminishing our left dances. Sexual assault.
Speaker 1: I was going to say, it's it's a crime thing,
Speaker 1: and I want to talk about intersexuality. I want to
Speaker 1: talk about sort of being under assault in this Trump administration,
Speaker 1: in the current policy in a second. But before we
Speaker 1: do that, Laverne, I want to talk about your story,
Speaker 1: your life story, because it's so fascinating and I'm sure
Speaker 1: was harrowin when you were younger. You were born in Mobile,
Speaker 1: you were raised by a single mom. You never met
Speaker 1: your dad. Um, I met my dad once. You did
Speaker 1: when you were how old? Um? I think I was
Speaker 1: in third grade. I was in third grade. You remember that,
Speaker 1: I do. I'm not going to talk about it, really,
Speaker 1: I think there's some things the whole circumstances leading up
Speaker 1: to that that we're really really painful. And I've worked
Speaker 1: through all that with my mom, and so iud of
Speaker 1: respect to my mother and my family. I can't talk
Speaker 1: about all I totally understand. But yes, once I met
Speaker 1: my my biological father, you had and you have an
Speaker 1: identical twin brother, yes, and just just one brother, just
Speaker 1: one sibling. Yeah, And um, I'm just curious what it
Speaker 1: was like growing up. I think about you and Mobile Alabama.
Speaker 1: I know you attempted suicide when you were eleven years old.
Speaker 1: Paint a picture for us, Laverne about what life was like.
Speaker 1: I mean, I have a lovely therapist now. She reminds
Speaker 1: me often that it's both and so like. Yes, I
Speaker 1: was bullied. Um, I was chased up from school tragically
Speaker 1: every day, and and kids wanted to beat me up.
Speaker 1: I got beaten up a lot. I was a very
Speaker 1: fast runner. I didn't feel safe anywhere. But I was
Speaker 1: also a really creative kid. I started dancing when I walked,
Speaker 1: and I begged my mother to put me into dance classes,
Speaker 1: and finally when I was in third grade, which she
Speaker 1: found a free program where I could study dance. And
Speaker 1: I believe that dancing saved my life. I didn't have
Speaker 1: Quarey wrap dance routines and like competed in talent shows
Speaker 1: all over the Southeast and there's still trophies in my
Speaker 1: house back in Alabama. He said, you have said it
Speaker 1: saved your life. Yeah, being creative and I was a
Speaker 1: good student. I've read constantly. We were walking distance from
Speaker 1: the Mobile Public Library, so I was at the library
Speaker 1: all the time reading. I was. I was a total nerd.
Speaker 1: As smart as you are. He's probably smarter, really, he's smarter.
Speaker 1: My brother is brilliant. He's really really smart. Um. And
Speaker 1: by the way, if you haven't watched or Just a
Speaker 1: New Black, you can meet brother's definitely playing a character though.
Speaker 1: My brother is punk rock and god. He is. He
Speaker 1: defines and find himself as a practicing homosexual who is
Speaker 1: Negro goth, punk rock, UM and a free black man.
Speaker 1: He's um, He's he's he's a musician and an artist
Speaker 1: and his work is very in Lamar is his name
Speaker 1: in lamar dot com. If people care about his work.
Speaker 1: He really sort of hates he hates that he didn't
Speaker 1: Orange A New Black because people it's so funny because
Speaker 1: if you google most famous, well known trans people. There's
Speaker 1: like before, people always want to see what trans people
Speaker 1: look like before. And people have a photo of my
Speaker 1: brother and then me side by side. I'm like, that's
Speaker 1: kind of hilarious. And they have a photo of him
Speaker 1: from ra just a new black and he doesn't even
Speaker 1: look like that in real lafe here it's like eyeliner
Speaker 1: or any long hair. But that's the character he played.
Speaker 1: That's the character he played. Yeah, my character pre transition.
Speaker 1: But but when when did you When did you start
Speaker 1: struggling with your gender identity? I do you? Do you
Speaker 1: remember from the very he didn't. It wasn't a struggle
Speaker 1: for me. It was a struggle for everybody else. I
Speaker 1: was all. I was always feminine, I was always you know,
Speaker 1: I really thought that boy, there was no difference in
Speaker 1: boys and girls, cause everyone was telling me I was
Speaker 1: a boy, and I knew that I was a girl,
Speaker 1: so I didn't think there were any differences. And then
Speaker 1: there was a therapy moment in third grade. I've talked
Speaker 1: about this little talked about this a lot. My third
Speaker 1: grade teacher, Miss Ridgeway. I called my mother on the
Speaker 1: phone and say, your son will end up in New
Speaker 1: Orleans wearing your dress if you don't get him into
Speaker 1: therapy right away. So I went to therapy and there
Speaker 1: was there was this whole sort of I guess we
Speaker 1: would call it reparative therapy around my gender expression at
Speaker 1: the time, that was trying to trying to fix me.
Speaker 1: And up until that time, I didn't think that there
Speaker 1: was really a difference between boys and girls. I knew
Speaker 1: that I was being bullied. I knew that people were um.
Speaker 1: People called me all kinds of anti gay slurs. They
Speaker 1: called me a girl, and I think I said, said,
Speaker 1: the interesting the irony of my life is that before
Speaker 1: I transition, kids called me a girl, and after I transition,
Speaker 1: people call me a man um and so, my gosh,
Speaker 1: it was just it was intense, but I feel like
Speaker 1: was everyone else's problem I And then it became and
Speaker 1: it's something I internalized. I internalized a tremendous amount of transphobia,
Speaker 1: and I was like, I can't be this. And it
Speaker 1: wasn't until I moved to New York and met real
Speaker 1: trans people that I was able to accept trans people
Speaker 1: and then accept myself. But it was a problem for
Speaker 1: everybody else. Lean Team Price my idol, She's an Offer singer,
Speaker 1: and she when she talks about race, she said, it's
Speaker 1: not it's not the black people's problem, it's everybody else's problem.
Speaker 1: And that's really how I see it with with the
Speaker 1: gender stuff. And I think for for me, I had
Speaker 1: to sort of get find access to medical care and
Speaker 1: find ways to survive because it's hard. It's as smart
Speaker 1: as you think I might be. I was working in
Speaker 1: a restaurant, a drag queen restaurant before Orange a New
Speaker 1: Black sort of became a sensation and in New York City,
Speaker 1: and I have a college degree, and I was writing,
Speaker 1: you know, articles for Huffing Compost and I kind of
Speaker 1: a smart chick. But a lot of people wouldn't have
Speaker 1: hired me. You know, I couldn't really get a job.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of people who wouldn't have hired me
Speaker 1: as brilliant as I might seem. Um, And there's a
Speaker 1: lot there's a lot of trans people out there who
Speaker 1: are brilliant who can't get jobs because they're trans. And
Speaker 1: you were inspired at least in part by a trans
Speaker 1: woman named Candice Kane. For people in audience who don't
Speaker 1: know who she is, can you describe her and tell
Speaker 1: her tell us the impact she had in your life.
Speaker 1: Candice Kane. I love Candice Kane. Um She's a New
Speaker 1: York City legend, and she's a trans woman. And a
Speaker 1: lot of people got to know horn Caitlyn Jenner's reality
Speaker 1: show I Am Kate. But before that, in two thousand
Speaker 1: and seven, she became the first openly transgender actress to
Speaker 1: have a recurring role in a prime time TV show.
Speaker 1: And that show is Dirty, Sexy Money. That was eleven
Speaker 1: years ago, and that moment made me believe that it
Speaker 1: was possible to be openly trance and have a career
Speaker 1: as an actor. I've been at this point, I had
Speaker 1: a degree in dance. I studied acting in dance in college.
Speaker 1: I had done a number of independent films and been
Speaker 1: and just been going to acting class every week, you know,
Speaker 1: and turning I in turned to student Susan Batson studio
Speaker 1: in New York City, and I mopped the floors and
Speaker 1: answered the phone. So I can get acting classes for free.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Susan. It's had a little scholarship, and so
Speaker 1: I it was being an actress something I've been. I
Speaker 1: committed myself to, you know, just and just doing the
Speaker 1: grind in New York doing the off off Broadway theater
Speaker 1: or student films or what. But I could do just
Speaker 1: to work. And when I saw that moment from Candice,
Speaker 1: I was like, this is the moment and that I
Speaker 1: sent out postcards. I love this story. By the way,
Speaker 1: was this sending out postcards from New York or from mobile?
Speaker 1: It was I was in New York, Okay, so it's
Speaker 1: already in New York. I went to college in New
Speaker 1: York and UM sent out postcards to agents and casting director.
Speaker 1: It's like five And I was like, Laburne Cox is
Speaker 1: the answer to all your transgender acting, because I mean
Speaker 1: there was sort of a niche for being trans and
Speaker 1: being an actor. Not a lot of great parts at
Speaker 1: the time, but there were. There was something mostly sex
Speaker 1: workers and crying victims. Um. It's not funny, but it
Speaker 1: kind of is. UM. And then the manager that I
Speaker 1: have now to this day, Paul Heloppo, was one of
Speaker 1: the four meetings I got from that. There was five postcards.
Speaker 1: That's amazing. I mean that's a real lesson, by the way,
Speaker 1: and ingenuity and persistence and just putting yourself out there
Speaker 1: that you sent all these postcards out and you got
Speaker 1: four meetings. From the meetings. I had a commercial agent
Speaker 1: for a minute that didn't work out, but then I
Speaker 1: got a legit acting agent. Um. Paul Heloppo was my
Speaker 1: agent for many years now he's my manager. And he
Speaker 1: saw something in me, and for there were many years
Speaker 1: didn't work at all over the eleven years that we've
Speaker 1: been together. That I would be like, my guys, why
Speaker 1: had he not dropped me? You know, if you haven't,
Speaker 1: you're and agent, you have a client and they're not working.
Speaker 1: But he just saw something of men. He's stuck with
Speaker 1: me and it's kind of worked out well. It certainly has.
Speaker 1: I mean, you did a number of appearances on lawn Order,
Speaker 1: I know, and then you did some reality shows, some
Speaker 1: independent films. You produced a documentary, produced a couple of documents,
Speaker 1: and one one in particular about the lives of seven
Speaker 1: trans children. I've seven trans youth um the time they
Speaker 1: were between the ages of twelve and twenty four. I'm
Speaker 1: so proud of all of them right now. Um Zoe
Speaker 1: Luna just had her HBO show about her Kisa. She's
Speaker 1: she was twelve when we interviewed her. Shane, her niece,
Speaker 1: has been in a Kinneth cole Ad and he got
Speaker 1: a full scholarship to Columbia at grad school after the
Speaker 1: Tea World. I'm just anyways, all of them are really fantastic,
Speaker 1: and I'm so proud of all of them. Think I
Speaker 1: mean again, I know, I know, I'm kind of like
Speaker 1: totally fan girling on poor Laverne, But think about what
Speaker 1: you were able to do for these young people by
Speaker 1: helping them adjust, by giving them attention, and by kind
Speaker 1: of launching their careers. I think what we I try
Speaker 1: not to be too arrogant about what I did. I
Speaker 1: think what we were able to do with Liver and
Speaker 1: cost Bus Instity where and you can watch the documentary
Speaker 1: on on YouTube or on Logo TV, is that we
Speaker 1: gave them a platform and tell their stories. And then um,
Speaker 1: with that, what were they able to do on top
Speaker 1: of that? What I learned, and I had this conversation
Speaker 1: with every one of them, that this is an opportunity
Speaker 1: for you to have a platform. Now it's time to hustle.
Speaker 1: And what I learned from having done reality TV when
Speaker 1: I did a show called I Wanna Work for Ditty
Speaker 1: in two thousand and eight, and that was um, that's
Speaker 1: directly because of Candice Cane. That was really the next
Speaker 1: year because I sort of put myself out there in
Speaker 1: a new way. I learned that reality television was a platform.
Speaker 1: But then now it was time for me to hustle
Speaker 1: and to um really capitalize on that. And so that's
Speaker 1: what I've I've tried to do in a way that's
Speaker 1: respectful to myself and to the art and what I
Speaker 1: want to do. UM. But that was what I said
Speaker 1: to the young people. So then it was on them.
Speaker 1: But I mean, let's be honest, giving them a platform
Speaker 1: change their worlds. I hope, so, I hope, so I will.
Speaker 1: Shane has told me that it has, and a few
Speaker 1: of the young people have told me that it has
Speaker 1: been transformative for them, So that that makes me happy.
Speaker 1: Let's take a quick break. We'll be back with more
Speaker 1: of our fascinating conversation with this week's wonder Woman, Laverne Cops.
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Speaker 1: P dot com slash k A t I E. Thanks
Speaker 1: as usual to those of you who have left your
Speaker 1: reviews over at Apple Podcasts, like already is this your friend? Already?
Speaker 1: Kid who says objectively, I love Katie Kirk's podcast. They
Speaker 1: make you feel good and you always learned things. Wish
Speaker 1: she did them every day? Well already, it's very similar
Speaker 1: to a review my mother gave me personally every day.
Speaker 1: Thanks for the props already, but I think we're gonna
Speaker 1: have to stick to once a week for now. Leave
Speaker 1: us a review on Apple Podcasts and we may just
Speaker 1: read it on the air. And now back to our
Speaker 1: conversation with Laverne Cox. Your big break when most people
Speaker 1: in this country first clapped eyes on Laverne Cox was
Speaker 1: when you got the role on Orange, just the New Black.
Speaker 1: How did that come about? And how has that changed
Speaker 1: your life? It's funny because right before I booked Orange,
Speaker 1: I was thinking maybe I was done acting. Maybe I'd
Speaker 1: been a number of independent films that done some TV,
Speaker 1: and I's thinking maybe I was done and hand booked
Speaker 1: any thing. For going on a year, I'm still working
Speaker 1: in the restaurant. I still working at Lucky Change the
Speaker 1: restaurant every week. And then I got the audition and
Speaker 1: I did two scenes, one from the pilot episode, of
Speaker 1: orange and one from the episode three, the famous duct
Speaker 1: tape flip flops um scene from season one. In fact,
Speaker 1: I'm glad you mentioned that because we have a clip
Speaker 1: from that since you did the perfect scene. All right,
Speaker 1: well let's listen to you. We'll just remind people I
Speaker 1: made my own don't carry us last their team duct
Speaker 1: tape metals a very in the season. I remember that
Speaker 1: scene so well, Laverne. When you heard about this role,
Speaker 1: were you just thinking, oh God, this is going to
Speaker 1: be so fantastic? Were you trufidacious? You know? I was
Speaker 1: at an event with my manager Paul, and he said,
Speaker 1: I have an audition for you. It's set in a
Speaker 1: women's prison. Your a hairdresser and wims through the women's prison.
Speaker 1: I was like, that sounds it sounded really intriguing. He
Speaker 1: said it was a web series and this is so
Speaker 1: there were no streaming television shows. There were web series.
Speaker 1: So I was just like, okay, a web series. Cool.
Speaker 1: And then I got the pilot script and it was
Speaker 1: brilliant and um JINGI co when I was a huge
Speaker 1: fan of Weeds, like huge and I love her by
Speaker 1: the way, I love her too, a creator and exactly
Speaker 1: and then I, um did the audition, got the part.
Speaker 1: I was screaming and was on the street and I
Speaker 1: started screaming, and I was hopeful that people might watch it.
Speaker 1: But I was just so excited to be working. I
Speaker 1: was I dedicated my life to being an actor, and
Speaker 1: it's a really hard thing to do, to be an artist,
Speaker 1: and so I was just happy to have a job.
Speaker 1: And then it turned into this thing where like episode
Speaker 1: three was my character's backstory and Jodie Foster was directing,
Speaker 1: and that was a dream come true. And um, did
Speaker 1: you have a moment when you thought, Wow, this is
Speaker 1: really clicking, this is this is something special season one?
Speaker 1: It was just what I love about Season one of
Speaker 1: our show is that it was so about the work,
Speaker 1: and I was just so excited to do the work
Speaker 1: to really that I've been training for all these years.
Speaker 1: And then there was a moment I think episode and
Speaker 1: it's the rat battle scene episodes six or so of
Speaker 1: season one, and I looked around and it was room
Speaker 1: full of women of all ages and backgrounds and sexual
Speaker 1: orientations and and I'm in the middle there, and it
Speaker 1: just was like, this is the coolest thing I've ever
Speaker 1: seen in my life. I don't know if anybody's gonna
Speaker 1: watch it or care, but this is awesome and I
Speaker 1: did honestly think anybody would watch it. I knew it
Speaker 1: was good and special, but I just had never seen
Speaker 1: anything like it, and so I was like, where does
Speaker 1: this fit in the marketplace? You know? And then it's
Speaker 1: on Netflix. I was just my my dream really was.
Speaker 1: I was like, I hope casting directors watch it and
Speaker 1: see that I can act, and maybe I'll get another job.
Speaker 1: You know. That was my that for real, That was
Speaker 1: for people didn't think of Netflix is the behea meth
Speaker 1: that it's become spending seven billion dollars a year on
Speaker 1: content and all the rest. But let me ask you,
Speaker 1: since you first appeared and broke through on that show,
Speaker 1: how do you think opera tenner days for transactors have changed? Gosh,
Speaker 1: it's a it's a mixed bag. When I talked to
Speaker 1: my transpants, you are actors. There are more roles than
Speaker 1: there used to be in the roles are different. Um.
Speaker 1: I'm so excited about Ryan Murphy's new show, Post is
Speaker 1: coming out of this summer. The six transgender series regular
Speaker 1: unless you all trans women of color, and they're so
Speaker 1: talented um and what is it about. It's about the
Speaker 1: ballroom community in New York City in the nineteen eighties,
Speaker 1: Like that movie Paris Is Burning if you saw that,
Speaker 1: it's about these balls that are sort of competitions where
Speaker 1: people vogue and people sort of have different categories like
Speaker 1: realness and face, etcetera. So it's the sort of drag
Speaker 1: trans LGBTQ balls of color that Madonna's Vogue comes out
Speaker 1: of that community. And it's really when um our current
Speaker 1: president was building all these huge buildings and so that
Speaker 1: you know, New York was changing a lot in the
Speaker 1: late eighties as well. So that that's the backdrop of
Speaker 1: the of the pose, which is that's so excited about it.
Speaker 1: So that's exciting for for people in the trans community.
Speaker 1: But how has it been a mixed bag? Well, there's
Speaker 1: still a lot of casting ridgers aren't calling USand for
Speaker 1: rules that are not trans. Well, that's the thing, right,
Speaker 1: is the real victory going to be when you don't
Speaker 1: have to play a trans person but you get to
Speaker 1: play a woman. I just get to play characters and
Speaker 1: it doesn't and the gender identity doesn't matter. I think
Speaker 1: that is the victory. More opportunities and I think, but
Speaker 1: there's so many trans stories that need to be told
Speaker 1: as well, and so more trans folks directing and writing
Speaker 1: and working behind the scenes is actually really crucial to
Speaker 1: to pose this credit. There's two to right trans writers
Speaker 1: and there's some trans people directing and working on the crew.
Speaker 1: Um of a show I did and CBS called Doubt,
Speaker 1: we had a trans writer. And I have a show
Speaker 1: um in development at ABC now called Spirited, UM that
Speaker 1: is not a trans character, and UM that's the lead
Speaker 1: of so hopefully that that pilot will be in the pipeline.
Speaker 1: It's but you feel like there you feel like you
Speaker 1: need to have both both stories of trans people but
Speaker 1: also trans people being cast without regard to their gender identity,
Speaker 1: because if you're right for the part, it shouldn't matter.
Speaker 1: I've always said, if it doesn't involve minstrual cycle or pregnancy,
Speaker 1: I should be able to play it. And then the
Speaker 1: question is does the character become trans when I play
Speaker 1: the character. I'm as a black actress, whenever I play
Speaker 1: a character, the character becomes black, And do it just
Speaker 1: the character become trans when I play her, even if
Speaker 1: it's not written that way. UM, So that's an interesting
Speaker 1: question that will so that we'll see. Well to that point,
Speaker 1: you have cis gendered men, that is, people who were
Speaker 1: born as men, playing signed mail at birth, assigned mail
Speaker 1: at birth and identify as male. Thank you for them
Speaker 1: being cast as trans women. Yes, I e. Jeffrey Tambor
Speaker 1: on Transparent although you know he may e y Leto,
Speaker 1: I e Eddie Redmayne. Who are you know? UM? I
Speaker 1: was about to say, all lovely people, but how do
Speaker 1: you feel about that? Though you know, um, there is
Speaker 1: certainly a push now in UM, in the trans community
Speaker 1: and beyond to cast trans people to play trans characters,
Speaker 1: trans people new jobs. I said earlier than our employment
Speaker 1: rate is about four times in national average UM. And
Speaker 1: Jim Richard's a brilliant actress. She argues that when physically,
Speaker 1: when cis gender men, non transgender men or cast to
Speaker 1: play transgender women, that least to violence against us because
Speaker 1: it sends the message that, she contends, that trans women
Speaker 1: are really men. So Jared Leto beautifully plays this transcharacter
Speaker 1: in Dallas Bias Club and then arrives at the Oscars
Speaker 1: and Golden Globes with a beard. And so folks men
Speaker 1: who find themselves attracted to trans women then see this
Speaker 1: guy with a beard, and it sends this message their
Speaker 1: trans women are really not women at all, but men,
Speaker 1: and so she contends that that leadst to balance against
Speaker 1: So I think the other piece of that is that
Speaker 1: men who are attracted to trans women need to deal
Speaker 1: with their internalized homaphobia and transphobia. What's been so exciting
Speaker 1: for me as a transactress playing a transparacteror and Orange
Speaker 1: a New Black is that people have audience members have
Speaker 1: not just empathized with the character that I played, but
Speaker 1: they find themselves empathizing with the actress who plays her.
Speaker 1: And so there's been so much I think it's inarguable
Speaker 1: that there's been so much change because of that part
Speaker 1: that I got to play, and people connecting with this
Speaker 1: character and then connecting with the actress and a human level. Well,
Speaker 1: think how much how many people have been educated by Sophia, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, it broke through this whole notion of gender
Speaker 1: identity and it just got right to the heart of
Speaker 1: the person, which can I think is the most persuasive
Speaker 1: tool possible. Right, you have to be able to see
Speaker 1: people as human beings, and I think, according to a
Speaker 1: study from glad of folks in the United States do
Speaker 1: not know someone trans and so what what we do
Speaker 1: in the media is how folks get to know trans
Speaker 1: folks exactly. It's crucial. It's it's life saving and or
Speaker 1: or life threatening if the representation in the media does
Speaker 1: not accurately and multidimensionally depict who trans people really are.
Speaker 1: One of the people I featured in my documentary was
Speaker 1: Gavin Graham. You can't see right now, but Laverne just
Speaker 1: kind of made a little prayer sign and held it
Speaker 1: up to her face because Gavin is an extraordinary person.
Speaker 1: How did you first get to know Gavin? I, you know,
Speaker 1: I became aware of his case in Gosh, and it
Speaker 1: would have been um, we should say, by the way, background,
Speaker 1: by the way, Gavin came out as transgender in high
Speaker 1: school in Virginia. His county school board said that he
Speaker 1: couldn't use the boys restroom. So apologies for the interruption,
Speaker 1: but now that's fine. Um, well, initially he was allowed,
Speaker 1: and then parents found out and said we can't do this,
Speaker 1: and everything was fine. Gavin was going to the boys room,
Speaker 1: the kids didn't have any there was no issue. And
Speaker 1: then the school board finds out and says no, this
Speaker 1: can't happen, and they had a big hearing. By the way,
Speaker 1: and just just before we talk a little more about Gavin,
Speaker 1: we have a clip from what I thought was one
Speaker 1: of the most moving moments of my documentaries when, by
Speaker 1: the way, we didn't film it. It was when Gavin
Speaker 1: spoke before the school board and there was a whole
Speaker 1: group of people, and he was fifteen years old, and
Speaker 1: he was so composed and so extraordinary. Let's listen to
Speaker 1: what he said. I've been aware of who I was,
Speaker 1: so I was a very young it and it's taken
Speaker 1: me a very long time to be able to be
Speaker 1: myself and be okay with that. The person I am now,
Speaker 1: being able to have all of my rights in full
Speaker 1: is such a massive dynamic difference from the person I
Speaker 1: was just last summer. I would like to say two
Speaker 1: of that. If the evidence said that me using the
Speaker 1: boy's room would be catastrophic, I would not be advocating
Speaker 1: for myself, regardless of my personal emotions over this issue.
Speaker 1: I look only at the facts as one should in
Speaker 1: an issue that requires separation of church and state, and
Speaker 1: feelingth and state. That clip makes me cry every time
Speaker 1: I hear at Laverne and so you heard about Gavin's situation.
Speaker 1: Did you reach out to him? I did, Actually, I
Speaker 1: really my friend Chaise Strangio, who was the a c
Speaker 1: l Youth Laurier. The a c L U is handling
Speaker 1: Gavin's case, and it was a major it was gonna
Speaker 1: be a major decision or it was it would have
Speaker 1: been the first time the Supreme Court would have heard
Speaker 1: an issue about transgender rights. And so I sent him
Speaker 1: a video message and then we arranged to meet to
Speaker 1: meet Gavin. It was like a week after the Grammys
Speaker 1: a year ago, I remember, and I just I was
Speaker 1: moved by everything I had read about him and the
Speaker 1: videos I've seen about him, and then he's when I
Speaker 1: met him. He's so smart and so calm and composed.
Speaker 1: It's amazing. I freak out. I mean, I just when
Speaker 1: I don't think it's attention is on me and I
Speaker 1: get such anxiety and he seems so calm and his
Speaker 1: mom um. It's amazing. I think it's over fifty percent
Speaker 1: of trans kits when they have family support, their lives
Speaker 1: are completely different in terms of positive outcomes for them
Speaker 1: being who they are. Because we should just mention how
Speaker 1: high the suicide rate is among trans children and trans youth. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's over over forty one of trans people have attempted suicide,
Speaker 1: and I think it's of trans youth have have attempted suicide,
Speaker 1: and so it's I think sometimes people want to sort
Speaker 1: of suggest that we're mentally ill. But if you live
Speaker 1: in a culture that tells you constantly and sends messages
Speaker 1: to you constantly that you are mentally ill, that you
Speaker 1: are a deviant, that you shouldn't exist, and that every
Speaker 1: message you're receiving constantly from everyone around you and from
Speaker 1: the media is that you shouldn't exist and that you
Speaker 1: are pariah, it is really hard to love yourself. It
Speaker 1: is really hard to think that you have a right
Speaker 1: to exist. And that's what I want. That's what I
Speaker 1: want trans kids to know that you have a right
Speaker 1: to exist and that you're anointed, that you are beautiful,
Speaker 1: and that you're here for a reason, and that you
Speaker 1: have to find a way to survive um so you
Speaker 1: can fulfill that reason for being here. The Supreme Court
Speaker 1: decided not to hear Gavin's case. They decided not to
Speaker 1: hear Gavin's case because the current administration. The Justice Department
Speaker 1: rescinded the Obama you're a guideline around how transgender kids
Speaker 1: should be treated in school. And and and so when the
Speaker 1: Justice Department rescinded those guidelines, then there was no case.
Speaker 1: There was no case. What did those guidelines say the guys?
Speaker 1: So basically a lot of people thought what they were
Speaker 1: about bathrooms? Right, So they did say that, you know,
Speaker 1: trans kits should be able to use the bathroom, that
Speaker 1: it's consistent with their gender identity, but also talked about
Speaker 1: preferred name. It talked about how other kids should treat
Speaker 1: them in school. So it was an whole host of guidelines.
Speaker 1: It was really adoptions, really making making sure that trans
Speaker 1: kids were safe in schools and that they were treated
Speaker 1: in a way that was respectful to them so they
Speaker 1: could learn. Education is the reason I'm sitting here, and
Speaker 1: people should have safe schools. And that was just the first,
Speaker 1: I think thing that the Trump administration did that has
Speaker 1: started to erode the progress that had heretofore been made
Speaker 1: before he was selected. Yeah, not just for trans people,
Speaker 1: but for across the board the Justice Department. Even though
Speaker 1: people have to remember that the current administration has not
Speaker 1: been very successful legislatively, but in terms of the Justice Department,
Speaker 1: they have been very successful rolling back mandatory minimum so
Speaker 1: many um progressive things that the Obama administration um did,
Speaker 1: so we got to continue to resist. Unter fact, back
Speaker 1: in July, President Trump tweeted the transgender individuals will not
Speaker 1: be allowed to serve in the US military. Has that
Speaker 1: been implemented? So um he remember for that was so
Speaker 1: crazy because ostensibly President Trump had cleared this with his
Speaker 1: military leaders, but then they said he never talked to them,
Speaker 1: ostensibly meaning he didn't right and then suddenly and then
Speaker 1: that changed. Right. So after after the tweet, the guest
Speaker 1: Department of Defense got some policy together to basically try
Speaker 1: to ban on transple And now, mind you, trans pople
Speaker 1: have just been able to serve openly barely, and it
Speaker 1: was something that like Obama, but luckily at this point
Speaker 1: to judges have said that this is unconstitutional and there's
Speaker 1: no reason to ban trans people. I think it's probably
Speaker 1: gonna end up at the Supreme Court. So that meantime,
Speaker 1: what's happening to transgender people who are currently serving in
Speaker 1: the military. It's my from my understanding, they should be
Speaker 1: treated with kindness and respect. But again, it sends a
Speaker 1: message when the leader of the free world. I feel
Speaker 1: that I use that term loosely. Now, UM, let the
Speaker 1: record show there's some more quotes tackling UM says that
Speaker 1: you shouldn't have a right to serve your right. And
Speaker 1: what other things have happened in the last year Laverne
Speaker 1: that have really kind of put trans people in the crosshairs? UM,
Speaker 1: I think over twenty states have passed about fifty pieces
Speaker 1: of legislation that basically criminalized trans people using the bathroom
Speaker 1: that is consistent with their gender agentity. Fifty pieces of legislation.
Speaker 1: A number of those pieces of legislation have been struck down,
Speaker 1: notably in Texas. But a lot of people think that
Speaker 1: um h B two in New Carolina, a lot of
Speaker 1: people thought that was repealed. It actually wasn't. They basically
Speaker 1: made a new bill that basically has instituced the same
Speaker 1: kind of discrimination against trans people because they wanted to
Speaker 1: basically get their corporate folks back, And so a lot
Speaker 1: of people think that that settled. In North Carolina, it
Speaker 1: actually isn't. The a c l U and other organizations
Speaker 1: are still I think it's lamb I Legal are still
Speaker 1: suing the state of North Carolina because they're trying to
Speaker 1: criminalize trans people going to the bathroom. This has had
Speaker 1: a profound impact on politics. The governor of North Carolina
Speaker 1: who signed the infamous bathroom band legendar not with us anymore. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he lost his race. I think he's still around, but
Speaker 1: he's no longer governor exactly. Um largely as a result
Speaker 1: of the backlash on this issue. And last year we
Speaker 1: saw Danica Rome I think that's how you pronounced her
Speaker 1: name in Virginia be the first openly transperson elected and
Speaker 1: seated in the US State House. Andrea Jenkins was the
Speaker 1: first openly transgender black woman to be elected to public office.
Speaker 1: US shows elect to the Minneapolis City Council and met Andrea.
Speaker 1: I've met Andrea. We did a panel when I was
Speaker 1: in Minnesota, like a couple of years ago. And now
Speaker 1: Chelsea Manning has filed to run first Senate in the
Speaker 1: state of Maryland and more of a controversial character, having
Speaker 1: nothing to do with first. I mean, I think it
Speaker 1: says a lot that we've seen this happen and that
Speaker 1: that must be a positive in a year that's been
Speaker 1: full of a lot of negatives. I think what has
Speaker 1: happened because of the current administration is that a lot
Speaker 1: of folks UM various backgrounds are choosing to run for
Speaker 1: office and are winning. And that I think if if
Speaker 1: there's anything positive that has come out of UM this
Speaker 1: current administration, is that folks have woken up. And I
Speaker 1: think a lot of folks got complacent under my beloved
Speaker 1: President Obama. I love him, and we miss you, We
Speaker 1: miss you Obama's UM. I think a lot of those
Speaker 1: got very complacent and didn't realize that UM a lot
Speaker 1: of basic civil liberties were at stake. And I think
Speaker 1: that is very clear now. The last time I checked,
Speaker 1: and I'm sure the numbers higher, eleven thousand women were
Speaker 1: running for office. Uh. And I think that brings us
Speaker 1: to sort of the me too movement. And I'm curious
Speaker 1: what you think of this movement, Laverne. If you believe
Speaker 1: it is intersectional enough, that is so it's really talking
Speaker 1: about race, it's talking about gender, it's talking about gender identity, uh,
Speaker 1: not just white women in Hollywood and or beyond even
Speaker 1: and that if you think it's expensive enough, So what
Speaker 1: are your thoughts. I think we can always be more intersectional,
Speaker 1: we can always um include more. Really yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: intersectionality really for people. I don't just experience the world
Speaker 1: as a trans woman. I experienced the world as a
Speaker 1: black person and as and and I have multiple identities
Speaker 1: and and having a social movements as funny as I've
Speaker 1: been doing a lot of rereading of Bell Hooks and
Speaker 1: a lot of black feminists from you know, the seventies
Speaker 1: and eighties, and and really for over thirty years that
Speaker 1: have been UM, women of color, queer women have been
Speaker 1: critiquing UM a lot of second way feminism that you know,
Speaker 1: thirty years ago, black feminists were like, we need to
Speaker 1: expand this idea of womanhood and we cannot um use
Speaker 1: biological essentialism to have conversations about women. That we have
Speaker 1: to be inclusive. So that conversation has been happening for
Speaker 1: a really long time. I never doubted, I mean, I
Speaker 1: don't think anyone can hear her and and doubt how
Speaker 1: well informed, well read you are on these issues. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's unbelievable, but anyway, but but so that conversation has
Speaker 1: been happening for a really long time, and I mean
Speaker 1: we just I think what we have to look at.
Speaker 1: I mean with Weinstein, for example, I remember all these
Speaker 1: actresses came out and said, you know that he had,
Speaker 1: you know, assaulted him and done the things that he's
Speaker 1: accused of doing. First person he challenged was Lupete ni Ago,
Speaker 1: a black woman. When he all these other women, he
Speaker 1: didn't say anything, he didn't say that I didn't do it,
Speaker 1: he'd But the first person he challenge was was Lupete
Speaker 1: and the Ago, And I think there this can't be
Speaker 1: a coincidence. Her blackness can't be a coincidence. I noticed
Speaker 1: when some trans women have come forward and said that
Speaker 1: they have been sexually assaulted, there's been a different tenor
Speaker 1: in terms of the ways in which they've been believed
Speaker 1: as opposed to other women who are not trans. It's
Speaker 1: it's all very very tricky because there's a lot of
Speaker 1: there's a lot of trauma. I think when we were
Speaker 1: talking about sexual assault and sexual harassment, I think it's
Speaker 1: really really important to talk about the healing that has
Speaker 1: to happen. You've been a victim or survivor, and it's
Speaker 1: one of I think the worst things that can happen
Speaker 1: to someone, if not the worst. UM, and so all
Speaker 1: the healing that has to happen, and UM, what's exciting
Speaker 1: is that UM, I mean, I've been rereading, you know, UM,
Speaker 1: some of my belthooks and talking back. She says. One
Speaker 1: of the most useful tools that women have, and it's
Speaker 1: not just women who've been victims of sexual assault and harassment,
Speaker 1: is our voice to be able to speak up and
Speaker 1: to speak out. And so it's amazing that that I
Speaker 1: think we were just the country was just ready for that.
Speaker 1: But UM, I think we still need to. UM. And
Speaker 1: it's not just because I and I. It's not just
Speaker 1: about including trans women, including women of color, including folks
Speaker 1: with disabilities or folks are incarcerated, including all these folks,
Speaker 1: but it's like, what does it mean to have these
Speaker 1: folks in leadership positions and decision making roles. I'm finding myself, UM,
Speaker 1: I'm very blessed that be in the position I'm in,
Speaker 1: but I'm trying to be critical of it, and I'm
Speaker 1: trying to really think about all the folks out there
Speaker 1: who don't have the platform I have, and what do
Speaker 1: they need and what would they want me to say
Speaker 1: when I'm in in these positions? And so much of
Speaker 1: it is about having not just the tokenized Hollywood trans
Speaker 1: woman lover and Cox in the in positions, um, and
Speaker 1: it's seats with seats at the table, but having diverse
Speaker 1: and other folks who don't have the same privileges I have. Well,
Speaker 1: it seems to me that you know, we have to
Speaker 1: start moving from outrage to policy changes and putting systems
Speaker 1: in place, and also obviously attitudes. Sometimes I think laws
Speaker 1: precede attitudes. If you look at the civil rights movement, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, it wasn't a popular thing to enact certain
Speaker 1: pieces of legislation, but it was the right thing, and
Speaker 1: then attitudes followed and somewhat. I mean, I think if
Speaker 1: you look at that, that's a really good example that
Speaker 1: we had the voting Civil Rights Act and the Voting
Speaker 1: Rights Act um that were past, and then black folks
Speaker 1: that did not end racism in America. Ironically, you know,
Speaker 1: black folks are incarcerated crazy rates, that stuff, profile police,
Speaker 1: et cetera. That's for sure. But I think if sometimes
Speaker 1: if if leaders wait for public uh sentiment to be
Speaker 1: on their side, that sometimes they'd be waiting for a
Speaker 1: very long time to at least take the first step
Speaker 1: of enacting legislation. That's that is hopefully eventually one day,
Speaker 1: fingers crossed going to change hearts and minds. But where
Speaker 1: should we go from here? Um? I think it's been
Speaker 1: so extraordinary to see people being able to express their themselves,
Speaker 1: use their voices, exhibit their outrage. But at some point
Speaker 1: do we need to then take it to the next step?
Speaker 1: In Hollywood, by the way, there is this initiative called
Speaker 1: times up um that may be a part of moving
Speaker 1: forward on these issues. But but but what are they
Speaker 1: going to do other than raise money for a legal
Speaker 1: defense fund for you know, I mean and not just Hollywood.
Speaker 1: But how can policies and change and how can we
Speaker 1: put systems in place so that it is better for
Speaker 1: that woman who's working on an simply line at a
Speaker 1: factory in Iowa. That's part of it. Rosa Clemente, who's
Speaker 1: been doing a lot of work around Puerto Rico, we
Speaker 1: have to remember their Puerto Ricans. Um. The island is
Speaker 1: still mostly without power and without clean drinking water. She
Speaker 1: reminded me when we met that that protests are important,
Speaker 1: but then we have to do the organizing after the protests,
Speaker 1: and so the organizing is about policy and hopefully systemic shifts. Um.
Speaker 1: So I was at times that meeting this past week,
Speaker 1: and and so the Legal Defense Fund. It's one of
Speaker 1: the things that times upsuring. There's other things, other work too.
Speaker 1: That's that's that's on the horizon, that that you'll find
Speaker 1: out more about later than it's about those policy shifts,
Speaker 1: and I think really it's how do we make workplaces
Speaker 1: safe for everyone? Anti sexual harassment policies have existed in
Speaker 1: of UM organizations for a very long time, but so
Speaker 1: much of that it's about not getting sued. But it
Speaker 1: doesn't change the culture in those organizations. So we have
Speaker 1: to be able to change the culture and then who's
Speaker 1: in power. A lot of folks think that about having
Speaker 1: diverse leadership, that we have more women and leadership positions
Speaker 1: and more people of color and just more diversity and
Speaker 1: so so so, and hopefully that we can begin to
Speaker 1: change the culture so that it's not okay to interrupt
Speaker 1: women at meetings and so it's not okay to that
Speaker 1: he peeting. What is no, that's man's plaining. Well, I'm
Speaker 1: doing this whole thing for National Geographic and one of
Speaker 1: my hours is on gender and equality in Hollywood and
Speaker 1: Silicon Valley and beyond. And there's something called he peating,
Speaker 1: and that means if you're at a meeting and a
Speaker 1: woman has this suggestion and everybody is like yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it kind of blows her off. Then the man says it,
Speaker 1: and so there's this hepeating. There's this thing called he
Speaker 1: peating that men do where a woman makes a point
Speaker 1: and everyone ignores her and then the gun thank you
Speaker 1: for that. It's the same thing and thank you for
Speaker 1: the illustration. Right, But anyway, But but I do think
Speaker 1: that those kinds of cultural shifts instead, so that not
Speaker 1: that we're in these things are important. I think sometimes
Speaker 1: people think that liberals get sort of you know, want
Speaker 1: to police language and and want to say you can
Speaker 1: and can say this is not about that, It's about
Speaker 1: how do we begin to change the culture, because those
Speaker 1: cultures influence policies and influence ways the ways in which
Speaker 1: people are treated and they feel safe or not. I know,
Speaker 1: work plates are on the street, or there may be
Speaker 1: sexual harassment policies, but I don't think they've been taken seriously.
Speaker 1: I think that when they have like diversity training or
Speaker 1: sexual harassment awareness, that most people just roll their eyes.
Speaker 1: And now I think those times have changed. But do
Speaker 1: you think that more men should be invited into the
Speaker 1: conversation because I think right now, at this juncture, I
Speaker 1: think there are a lot of men who are so fearful,
Speaker 1: and I think that some of them believe like we
Speaker 1: need to spend this time listening, but at some point
Speaker 1: we need men to join forces with women and not
Speaker 1: just listen. So do you feel like they've been shut
Speaker 1: out of the conversation too much? I think we have
Speaker 1: to be really careful not to foreground men's voices. I
Speaker 1: think we're talking about why it's thiss gender men's voices
Speaker 1: in a in a in a movement that needs to
Speaker 1: be about women coming to voice and women having a
Speaker 1: space so that we can't foreground those voices. But men,
Speaker 1: we can't really topple of the patriarchy without um men
Speaker 1: being engaged in that. I think a friend Matt mcgory
Speaker 1: does so much work around Black Lives matter and around
Speaker 1: having conversations with white people around their own racism, and
Speaker 1: so I think men need to be having conversations with
Speaker 1: each other, and I know some incredible guys who are
Speaker 1: doing that work. UM list of course listening to women
Speaker 1: of all different backgrounds, trans you know, women with disabilities
Speaker 1: listening and then having conversations with other men and saying
Speaker 1: and saying, this is no longer acceptable to talk about
Speaker 1: women this way and to have conversations, and then what
Speaker 1: can we do to change policies, to change hearts and minds?
Speaker 1: And then how can we interrogate ourselves. I think a
Speaker 1: lot of men to what I've come to realize. This
Speaker 1: movement has been really intense for me. I got to, um,
Speaker 1: I can't believe me when I talk about this, because
Speaker 1: I'm not maybe ready to fully talk about it. But
Speaker 1: I got to confront a man that i'd had a
Speaker 1: sexual encounter with that the encounter was consentual, but then
Speaker 1: something happened that wasn't consentual, and I was able to
Speaker 1: recently recently confront him about that. And what was interesting
Speaker 1: for me in the confrontation is that he had no idea,
Speaker 1: He had no idea that his behavior was predatory, that
Speaker 1: what he didn't have consent, And I think so often
Speaker 1: the idea of consent is something that that that that
Speaker 1: men aren't really clear about. And I I'm very clear
Speaker 1: that what happened was not consentual and it was not okay,
Speaker 1: and I was able to assert that to him. But
Speaker 1: that's a different kind of conversation, what does consent look like? Um?
Speaker 1: A woman I know name UM, who's who teaches um
Speaker 1: sex and in New York and she teaches kids, She's
Speaker 1: having conversations, you know, in middle school, really early on
Speaker 1: about what consent is and looks like. And we have
Speaker 1: to be really careful about the messages we're sending to
Speaker 1: our young people of all genders about what consent is.
Speaker 1: And so those kinds of conversations men should be having
Speaker 1: with themselves, with um, with each other, and then ultimately
Speaker 1: with women, and then listening more and then we all
Speaker 1: have to be engaged in changing the culture. Is it
Speaker 1: just too early to kind of push that, as you say,
Speaker 1: foreground their voices. No, we should not be foregrounding voices.
Speaker 1: I don't. I mean, I mean I love Byron exactly,
Speaker 1: foregrounding so that we because it's the problem is that
Speaker 1: for far too often we've listened to men and not
Speaker 1: listen to women. Were at a point now when women
Speaker 1: when women are finally being believed and something heard and heard,
Speaker 1: and we have to continue that we have. That doesn't
Speaker 1: mean that we're That doesn't mean because I love man
Speaker 1: doesn't mean we hate man. That doesn't mean that we
Speaker 1: want to sort of demonize men, but we have to
Speaker 1: foreground the voices and experiences of women. And then I
Speaker 1: think to whether it's not just women who are experiencing
Speaker 1: sexual assault either. Anthony Rapp, we have to remember, came
Speaker 1: forward with some really important information about and well known
Speaker 1: actor that we all know, and um, Terry Crews and
Speaker 1: other other men have come forward and and said that
Speaker 1: they too have been And I know a lot of
Speaker 1: men and just personally who I'm experienced sexual assault. So um,
Speaker 1: it's a conversation that we all need to have. But
Speaker 1: then there's there's something about power and accountability. I think
Speaker 1: for so long as she was just okay to do
Speaker 1: this stuff and time's up, I feel like we should
Speaker 1: also just talk briefly about pay inequality. You know, A
Speaker 1: big story this will air a couple of weeks after
Speaker 1: this whole incident, but that got a lot of attention
Speaker 1: is Michelle Williams versus Mark Wahlberg. And I found that
Speaker 1: really upsetting but also so interesting on a multiple levels
Speaker 1: because I think at per usual Michelle Williams was trying
Speaker 1: to be super accommodating and saying I'll do whatever it takes,
Speaker 1: I'll you know, skip my holiday, right, I'll go to
Speaker 1: Italy over Thanksgiving or whatever. And then she had the
Speaker 1: same representation as Mark Wahlberg, who got paid one point
Speaker 1: five million dollars. O'Brien told me earlier that there was
Speaker 1: some stipulation in his contract that he had approval over
Speaker 1: the replacement actor. Blah blah blah. But the fact of
Speaker 1: the matter is, I mean the man held it up
Speaker 1: so that he could get a bunch of money, and
Speaker 1: the woman said, oh, yeah, sure, I'm happy to be accommodating,
Speaker 1: and you know, do this whenever you want to get
Speaker 1: paid a thousand bucks, which I think speaks to eighty
Speaker 1: dollars a day per deum, which which which speaks to
Speaker 1: I think women and are are discomfort in speaking up
Speaker 1: and demanding things and trying to be liked and being
Speaker 1: the good person versus Mark Wahlberg, who of course eventually
Speaker 1: gave the money to the Times Up movement and to
Speaker 1: the Legal Defense Fund there. But I mean, why does
Speaker 1: this keep happening and how do you ussure in a
Speaker 1: major paradigm shift for that. There's so many issues there,
Speaker 1: and I can when I when I hear that, I
Speaker 1: know I can relate to especially being still feeling new
Speaker 1: to the entertainment industry and feel like, I'm just so
Speaker 1: lucky to be here that you don't want to do
Speaker 1: anything to piss people. And I don't want to do
Speaker 1: anything to piss anybody off. I'm like, what do you need?
Speaker 1: And always trying to arrive and and be easy to
Speaker 1: work with and in and agreeable and never difficult. And
Speaker 1: so that's something I really really deeply relate to. Gosh,
Speaker 1: I think there's so many issues. There's so much that
Speaker 1: we probably don't even know about. In terms of the
Speaker 1: contract negotiations, I'm excited that the money is going to
Speaker 1: Time's up. Um, I'm excited that that's happening. UM. I
Speaker 1: think Michelle. Michelle Williams is a brilliant, brilliant artist. Her
Speaker 1: body of work is so compelling. Her statement around this
Speaker 1: is has been absolutely just magnanimous and inspiring. I I
Speaker 1: just love I love her. I don't know her personally,
Speaker 1: but I love the way that she's gone about all this.
Speaker 1: But part of this is I think women starting to
Speaker 1: become accustomed to owning some power, you know, and and
Speaker 1: not being so worried and being able to demand things
Speaker 1: and not be afraid what that says when it comes
Speaker 1: to and I think I think it's Susie Orman who
Speaker 1: said that we need to talk about money more in general,
Speaker 1: so that we are having conversations how much are you making?
Speaker 1: You know, so that we should be openly having conversations
Speaker 1: about our transparency are people getting? And then so what
Speaker 1: should I be asking for? So so that's part of it.
Speaker 1: But there's something I really get that desire to be
Speaker 1: like what do you need? You know they were reshooting
Speaker 1: the film because of um the actor who they needed
Speaker 1: and needed to I know, but I don't. I don't
Speaker 1: know for every reason. But like, so I get where
Speaker 1: Michelle was coming from. Let me do whatever I can't.
Speaker 1: I get it. I really laudatory in a way. On
Speaker 1: the other hand, it's like, why should we be pleasers?
Speaker 1: And why should we be so helpful? Or maybe the
Speaker 1: men should be more helpful. Yeah, I was going to say,
Speaker 1: is that a good thing? A bad thing? It's so confusing.
Speaker 1: Oprah talked about how often talks about her how her
Speaker 1: life changed when she let go of her disease to
Speaker 1: please and I'm I'm still learning that, um, but really
Speaker 1: choosing them, Burnee Brown says her boundary mantras choose discomfort
Speaker 1: over resentment. So we're setting boundaries and and um not
Speaker 1: being in a space of like constantly wanting to please,
Speaker 1: but so that we can assert ourselves and feel and
Speaker 1: to stand our value. I don't I don't know Michelle personally.
Speaker 1: I think she I don't know her, but I think
Speaker 1: she knows her value with I think four Oscar nominations
Speaker 1: in this body of work. But um, she's just not
Speaker 1: a jerk anyway. In closing, Okay, no, but you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, she's like, I mean, she's a match. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she's a men, she's an any who. Um, are there
Speaker 1: other projects you're working on that you can talk about?
Speaker 1: Freak show right, Freak shows out now, Freak shows in
Speaker 1: theaters and on demand. It's a beautiful UM movie set
Speaker 1: in high school about a young kid named Billy Bloom
Speaker 1: who is kind of gender non binary, likes to dress
Speaker 1: and fantastic costumes at school and gets bullied and it
Speaker 1: ends up running for homecoming queen UM and it's a
Speaker 1: really beautiful story. I have a teeny tiny party in
Speaker 1: your Trudy Styler directs and Bett Midler has a wonderful
Speaker 1: role in it's so folks can um I think in
Speaker 1: l a New York c freak show now or on demand.
Speaker 1: It's you can just get it anywhere. It's fantastic. I
Speaker 1: love that movie. Um and your model for Oh my God,
Speaker 1: that's crazy. Beyonce chose me to be one of the
Speaker 1: faces of her autumn winter campaign for Ivy Park. The
Speaker 1: posters are still in top shops all over the world.
Speaker 1: I still get it's an active where line, it's an
Speaker 1: active where. It's her at leisure line. It's amazing. I
Speaker 1: was an Ivy Park fan even before I was modeling
Speaker 1: for it. Thank you, Beyonce. That's you. Are you and
Speaker 1: fiance like this? I just did the thing where your
Speaker 1: fingers are together like you're super tight. No, I've met
Speaker 1: Beyonce once. She was about to give birth when we
Speaker 1: shot the ad campaign, so I've only met her once.
Speaker 1: We're not tight like that. Um. You know, you've got
Speaker 1: to be a lot more Hollywood. You gotta say we're very,
Speaker 1: very close. You know. I don't do that whole thing
Speaker 1: of like, should I be more Hollywood. I'm just gonna
Speaker 1: be Lavernet. It's actually very refreshing. But she she's so
Speaker 1: I mean I've interviewed her a couple of times. I
Speaker 1: haven't seen her for years, but in the early days
Speaker 1: of Destiny's Child and then when she started on her
Speaker 1: solo career, I had the pleasure of interviewing her and
Speaker 1: I just I just adore her. I think she is
Speaker 1: so great and we're so talented. It's ridiculously be she
Speaker 1: is still the queen of us all. I have a
Speaker 1: few queens, and Beyonce is one so and I remain
Speaker 1: a genormous fan. Who's your other queen? Um? Oh my god,
Speaker 1: I have many queens, Oprah, Um, Leon, Team Price, Violet Davis. Um.
Speaker 1: When you look ahead at this year, you know what
Speaker 1: what a What are your hopes and dreams? It was
Speaker 1: funny you were saying you wanted that role and a
Speaker 1: continuing role that one year, and then Orange is a
Speaker 1: New Black popped up? What are your goals? I want
Speaker 1: to get better at being an artist and being an actress.
Speaker 1: I got to work on I'm Gonna be in the
Speaker 1: next season of Orange, and they wrote some really beautiful
Speaker 1: material for me and I I want to get better
Speaker 1: at what I do. I think being an actor is
Speaker 1: very difficult in doing it well. Um it's difficult, but
Speaker 1: it's also a lifelong pursuit and something that you can
Speaker 1: get better, get older, and get better at. So I
Speaker 1: want to continue to expand all the notes. New show
Speaker 1: called Glad Masters that's coming out on Lifetime. It's a
Speaker 1: it's a competition reality show from makeup artist m Kim Kardashian.
Speaker 1: West is one of the executive who's I'm a co
Speaker 1: executive producer as well, and I'm also a host and judge,
Speaker 1: and we're looking for the next big breakout star in
Speaker 1: the beauty industry. It's it's on Lifetimes premering February. I'm
Speaker 1: so proud of it. I've seen a lot of the
Speaker 1: episodes and the contestants are incredible. You really understand that
Speaker 1: makeup isn't just I'm not wearing makeup today, Thank God.
Speaker 1: I love having my makeup three days. But the makeup
Speaker 1: is not just about looking pretty. That it's an art,
Speaker 1: and these makeup artists we have on the show really
Speaker 1: show you that. And the challenges that we give them, um,
Speaker 1: you illustrate that. And it's fun. We had so much fun.
Speaker 1: So you're not only doing all your acting stuff, You're
Speaker 1: like turning into a mogul of I'm trying to do
Speaker 1: continue to do what I love and do, and I
Speaker 1: love a lot of different things, and so I'm trying
Speaker 1: to sort of go with the passion and being a
Speaker 1: space of of joy and multidimensionality. I'm not just one thing,
Speaker 1: and so I'm getting to explore all of you, these
Speaker 1: different sides of myself and showing the world that they
Speaker 1: can do that as well. I think that's great. Well,
Speaker 1: I just you know, I adore you. So I'm so
Speaker 1: happy that you came by on a Sunday no Less
Speaker 1: to visit with us. This has been so much fun.
Speaker 1: I can't wait to see how you edit this because
Speaker 1: we talked a lot. A big thank you this week
Speaker 1: to the Invisible Studios in l A for today's recording,
Speaker 1: and our usual thanks to the lovely and talented Gianna
Speaker 1: Palmer for producing the show. We love Gianna, and we
Speaker 1: love Jared O'Connell for mixing it. Oh gosh, I don't
Speaker 1: want to leave anyone out. We love Nora Richie, our
Speaker 1: assistant producer, and Alison Bresnik on social media, Emily Bena
Speaker 1: over at Katie Currect Media, we love you too, and
Speaker 1: beth My assistant. I can't forget her. We love her
Speaker 1: a lot because she puts up with me every day.
Speaker 1: Beth's a wonder woman in her own right. Mark Phillips
Speaker 1: wrote our theme music. I would say I love you, Mark,
Speaker 1: but I don't even know you. And Brian and I
Speaker 1: are the show's executive producers. Talk to you next week
Speaker 1: and thanks so much for listening everyone Stitcher now in
Speaker 1: certain podcasts moving forward, Lavern, Brian and I decided we're
Speaker 1: going to pick out a song that we think best
Speaker 1: exemplifies the spirit of our guests. So hit it, guys.
Speaker 1: Come on, Brian, this is when you're going to drop
Speaker 1: it like it's hot. Yeah. I don't think anyone wants
Speaker 1: to hear that. Yeah, we feel like hot stuff is
Speaker 1: appropriate for you, Laverne, because you were on fire an
Speaker 1: English royal. We by the way, Oh my god, Hello,
Speaker 1: Dead Beats. It's Gabby. Gabby Done, host of Bad with Money.
Speaker 1: I had the Bad with Money book come out in January.
Speaker 1: I'm super stoked for season four. This season, we're going
Speaker 1: back to our roots and I'm having long conversations with
Speaker 1: amazing people and getting the big picture about money and
Speaker 1: the economy. Do you like intersectional queer, social justice based
Speaker 1: money podcasts. This is the only one, so get into it.
Speaker 1: Did you earn it? You deserve to be like a
Speaker 1: billionaire when somebody who's working as a janitor or working
Speaker 1: in Walmart, or teacher or a teacher, yeah certainly, or
Speaker 1: a teacher who may be working just as many hours
Speaker 1: as you, maybe just as smart as you like, does
Speaker 1: that make it okay that you have so much? I
Speaker 1: get paid once a month, so my my check accounts huge.
Speaker 1: It's like a tidal wave comes in and then on
Speaker 1: the second it's empty again. Oh my god, speaking my language.
Speaker 1: Bad with Money is back now for season four. Listen
Speaker 1: and stitch your Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1: M