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Speaker 1: Hi, Brian, Hi Katie at Hello, dear listeners. While we're

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Speaker 1: officially in the dog days of summer, I don't know

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Speaker 1: where that expression came from. Dog days of summer we are,

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Speaker 1: I don't know how it quite happened, but we're already

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Speaker 1: into August. I can't believe it. You know what? The

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Speaker 1: summer always reminds me of, Brian. I think I have

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Speaker 1: a guess. Some are loving had me a last sum

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Speaker 1: are loving? Happened so fast? Met a girl cute as

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Speaker 1: can be meta by crazy for me, you have like

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Speaker 1: Phofo Gigio. That's an excellent reference. Did you have a

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Speaker 1: lot of summer romances, Katie? No, not really, Actually, maybe

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Speaker 1: a few, But that song goes out to my hubby

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Speaker 1: each on Mulnar Hi Mulner. He might not like the

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Speaker 1: line that had happened so fast, but that's another story.

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Speaker 1: Any who. We're not putting out new episodes for the

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Speaker 1: rest of August, but as we mentioned in the last

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Speaker 1: week's show, we didn't want to leave you guys completely hanging,

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Speaker 1: so we're revisiting some of our favorite conversations from the podcast,

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Speaker 1: and we also have a surprise podcast up our sleeve

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Speaker 1: that we really think you're gonna like very exciting to

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Speaker 1: kick off our greatest hit series. We're going to return

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Speaker 1: to our interview with actress and activists and one of

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Speaker 1: my favorite people, one of the smartest people I've ever met, actually,

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Speaker 1: Laverne Cox. Like a lot of people, I was first

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Speaker 1: introduced to Laverne in her role as Sophia in the

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Speaker 1: Netflix show Orange Is the New Black, which, by the way,

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Speaker 1: released it's sixth season just a few weeks ago. Now,

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Speaker 1: if you're familiar with Laverne, you may also know that

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Speaker 1: she is transgender. In fact, she's the first openly trans

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Speaker 1: person ever nominated for an Emmy for her role as Sophia.

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Speaker 1: That's right, And Laverne is also a prominent spokeswoman and

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Speaker 1: advocate for LGBT rights, and Katie, she helped inspire you

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Speaker 1: to make your documentary Gender Revolution, if I remember correct,

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Speaker 1: That's right, she did, and she was so loving in

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Speaker 1: the process when a lot of people were very critical,

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Speaker 1: and I'll always be grateful for that. We're going to

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Speaker 1: get into that during the course of our conversation. And

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Speaker 1: if you're unfamiliar with transgender issues or you're still learning

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Speaker 1: what it means to be transgender, your gender or gender nonconforming,

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Speaker 1: non binary. There are all sorts of new vernacular about this, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I was new to most of these issues. So

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Speaker 1: Gender Revolution really is a remarkable documentary. I'm not just

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Speaker 1: saying this is your friend, and I encourage all of

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Speaker 1: our listeners to go watch it if you haven't already,

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Speaker 1: or you could check out the corresponding episode of this

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Speaker 1: podcast where we interviewed some of the folks from my documentary.

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Speaker 1: That's episode nineteen from back in February of two thousand seventeen. God,

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Speaker 1: we've been doing this a long time, we have. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: When we interviewed Laverne earlier, we covered a lot of ground.

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Speaker 1: We talked about what it was like growing up in Mobile, Alabama,

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Speaker 1: Horiz to fame transgender roles in Hollywood. Laverne was especially

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Speaker 1: excited about the then upcoming TV show Pose on FX,

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Speaker 1: which explore is New York City's ballroom community in the nineties,

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Speaker 1: and that show, by the way, has since come out

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Speaker 1: to rave reviews, so she had a reason to be excited.

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Speaker 1: We also talked a lot about the Me Too movement

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Speaker 1: because it was sort of in full bloom when we

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Speaker 1: had our conversation and In the last several months, Laverne

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Speaker 1: sure has been busy. She sure has Brian. She hosted

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Speaker 1: the lifetime beauty competition show glam Masters. She also released

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Speaker 1: a dance club song called Beat for the Gods. Hey,

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Speaker 1: she stole my song. And when we spoke earlier this year,

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Speaker 1: Laverne and I began by talking about how the two

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Speaker 1: of us first met a few years back. We have

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Speaker 1: an interesting back story, if you will, so just for

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Speaker 1: our listeners, and I'm not embarrassed to talk about it

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Speaker 1: because I think it's important to ollan the fact that

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Speaker 1: I screwed up and what I learned from my mistakes

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Speaker 1: with your help. But a few years ago on my

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Speaker 1: talk show is doing something with the right spirit of

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Speaker 1: trying to help people understand transgender issues, which really wasn't

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Speaker 1: being talked about very much at that moment in time.

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Speaker 1: I think was back in two thousand and fourteen, and

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Speaker 1: now four years ago. I know it isn't that crazy.

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Speaker 1: Years ago this on this month. It aired four years

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Speaker 1: ago this month, well, Carmen Career came on the show

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Speaker 1: Carmen Career as a trans model, and she was interested

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Speaker 1: in being the first Victoria's Secrets trans model. And she

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Speaker 1: came on and in a very awkward and inappropriate moment,

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Speaker 1: I asked her about her private parts. You're still your

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Speaker 1: your Your private parts are different now, aren't they. I

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Speaker 1: don't want to talk about it because it's it's it's

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Speaker 1: really personal, and I don't know. I didn't quite understand

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Speaker 1: how offensive that was to someone. Of course, it would

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Speaker 1: be offensive if someone asked me, and clearly it was

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Speaker 1: offensive to Carmen of you know, understandably. So Laverne saved

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Speaker 1: the day and came out and we had a conversation

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Speaker 1: about it. But it really exploded in the trans community.

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Speaker 1: People were really upset about it, angry with me, and

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Speaker 1: it was mortifying and I was so embarrassed. And later

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Speaker 1: on in the season, Laverne came back and we actually

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Speaker 1: sat down and had a long conversation about why that

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Speaker 1: was so inappropriate. And I remember the producers, Laverne, they

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Speaker 1: did not want me to do that. They were like, no,

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Speaker 1: don't talk about it. I said, no, I want to

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Speaker 1: talk about it. Tell me your impressions when you saw

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Speaker 1: Twitter exploding with all that venom towards me. I'm just

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Speaker 1: curious what your reaction was, Katie. Oh, it was it's

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Speaker 1: such as that was an intense timing you're taking me back.

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Speaker 1: First of all, I want to say that publicist producers

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Speaker 1: often say don't talk about something and that, and that

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Speaker 1: if you talk about an issue that controversy, that it

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Speaker 1: sort of perpetuates, and so but then when you don't

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Speaker 1: talk about it, then there we don't really get a

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Speaker 1: chance to have the educational moment. We don't get to

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Speaker 1: have the teachable moment, as the way you you put

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Speaker 1: it at the time. And so I was so excited

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Speaker 1: that you were willing and open to talk about it.

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Speaker 1: And I think about the moments I've had because we

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Speaker 1: think when you're a public figure, you're constantly putting yourself

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Speaker 1: out there, and you're going to quote unquote make mistakes

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Speaker 1: or get things wrong and upset people, and that's deeply,

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Speaker 1: deeply painful. And I felt that. I felt that even

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Speaker 1: though we weren't talking, I felt like how painful it

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Speaker 1: was for you um to be going through that and

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Speaker 1: to have the courage to be on television and to

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Speaker 1: say I made a mistake and what can we do

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Speaker 1: to rectify that? It's like so hard to do and

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Speaker 1: it's so painful. But I think that and I, as

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Speaker 1: you saw the speech I made in London at the

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Speaker 1: Attitude Awards about how that's for me, feels like this

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Speaker 1: model of how we can go forward. It's going to

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Speaker 1: be painful, it's going to hurt, but if we can

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Speaker 1: be accountable and be teachable, then we can begin to

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Speaker 1: model that for other ball So when it all happened,

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Speaker 1: though at the time, what was exciting for me is

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Speaker 1: that my whole life I've been watching UM TV talks,

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Speaker 1: have done presentations about TV talk shows that have since

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Speaker 1: the fifties and sixties have having conversations about trans people

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Speaker 1: and reduced, not even necessarily reducing us to surgeries and

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Speaker 1: transition and body parts. But what I said on the

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Speaker 1: show is when we focus on that, that becomes the

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Speaker 1: only takeaway. But because because it sensationalizes our identities, and

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Speaker 1: having watched those interviews over the years, and I've never

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Speaker 1: really seen anyone on television pushed back and say maybe

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Speaker 1: we should be having a different conversation. So what was

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Speaker 1: really exciting for me is that Carmen and I got

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Speaker 1: the opportunity to UM to talk back and say maybe

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Speaker 1: we should be having a different conversation. And so I

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Speaker 1: think when I saw Twitter exploding. What was exciting for

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Speaker 1: me is is that because of social media and because

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Speaker 1: of that moment, Carmen and I were able to have

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Speaker 1: with you because you we pre shot that, so you

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Speaker 1: don't actually have to air that, right. That's that's that's

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Speaker 1: actually a little interesting factoid about the whole situation. You know,

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Speaker 1: my producer said, do you want to take that out?

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Speaker 1: Because you know it made me look foolish and and

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Speaker 1: and deservedly so, and I said, no, keep it in

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Speaker 1: because I think it's maybe a question that other people

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Speaker 1: would have asked or at least thought about. And I

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Speaker 1: want people to understand that being a trans person is

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Speaker 1: much more than your anatomy, you know, it has has

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Speaker 1: very little to do with it. And of course I've

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Speaker 1: been so educated since Laverne because of my documentary. But

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Speaker 1: I also think the conversation has changed. I feel, I mean,

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Speaker 1: certainly there's there people have there's still an educational thing

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Speaker 1: that still needs to happen around transpos to something misunderstandings

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Speaker 1: and misconceptions about it. But I feel like with journalists

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Speaker 1: now it's different. I feel it's really different, and so

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Speaker 1: that moment feels really pivotal and I'm I'm so grateful

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Speaker 1: to you for that moment. I'm grateful that you didn't

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Speaker 1: edit it out. I'm grateful to the community who pushed back.

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Speaker 1: And I'm sure it was really painful for you the

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Speaker 1: way in which some some folks in my community pushed back. Um,

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Speaker 1: but sometimes that's the necessary part of it, is I mean,

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Speaker 1: it is interesting when it comes to a social movement

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Speaker 1: sort of you have to bottle up and release that anger,

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Speaker 1: and I think it's part of the process. But I

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Speaker 1: so appreciate it. You mentioned that speech that you gave

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Speaker 1: it the Attitudes Inspiration Award last fall. We actually pulled

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Speaker 1: a clip because it was so nice and I was

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Speaker 1: so grateful of Earns. So let's listen for a second.

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Speaker 1: It is important that we begin to look for models

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Speaker 1: of transformation and encourage that. And when the way we

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Speaker 1: got there with Katie is it I was willing to

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Speaker 1: have conversations with her with love and empathy. I do

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Speaker 1: not believe that we can get to that transformation by

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Speaker 1: publicly shaming people. And so for people who didn't watch

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Speaker 1: these shows and didn't follow this controversy as closely as

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Speaker 1: some did, particularly in the trans community, what do you

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Speaker 1: think of the key lessons that people who are not

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Speaker 1: trans can take away from that back and forth. For

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Speaker 1: people who aren't trans, I mean, I think, I mean,

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Speaker 1: there's so many things, um part of part of it,

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Speaker 1: I think is the love and empathy piece that's so

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Speaker 1: often every what I've learned, especially over the last years,

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Speaker 1: that not everyone is coming from a place of good intentions.

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Speaker 1: I think with Katie, it was clear that you were

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Speaker 1: you do have great good intentions, and it's got some

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Speaker 1: things a little off. And so then when the intentions

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Speaker 1: are clear, that we can begin to approach people with

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Speaker 1: love and empathy and find ways to indicate our message better.

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Speaker 1: And I'm sure with that approach, I mean, can you

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Speaker 1: feel when you change hearts and minds? Do people say

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Speaker 1: to you, you know, thank you? I under I mean,

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Speaker 1: I I've been one of those people. Can you see

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Speaker 1: their hearts opening up and their minds changing with this

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Speaker 1: approach I have? I have, and and learning doesn't always

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Speaker 1: happen in the moment. It often it's incremental. But I think,

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Speaker 1: I mean, part of what I get to do as

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Speaker 1: an artist too, is that when you as an actor,

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Speaker 1: that's the work of being an actor is having empathy

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Speaker 1: having empathy for a character characters that I play. I

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Speaker 1: can never sort of approach a character with like I

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Speaker 1: don't like this person. I always have to find a way,

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Speaker 1: even if the character has done some reprehensible things, to

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Speaker 1: empathize with her, um and find a way in So

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Speaker 1: that's the work of being an artist is to is

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Speaker 1: to have empathy and love for the characters I play

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Speaker 1: and to hopefully convey that to audiences. And so that's

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Speaker 1: the work that I do as an artist, and so

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Speaker 1: I think that hopefully we'll translate into the work I

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Speaker 1: do elsewhere. Being an artist is what informs everything that

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Speaker 1: I do. And UM, there's a legacy of revolutionary artists,

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Speaker 1: progressive artists, through their work and their activism, have proceeded

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Speaker 1: that way, and so I have a wonderful legacy to

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Speaker 1: look to. We've seen a similar journey of understanding happen

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Speaker 1: around the issue of marriage equality. UM, understanding around trans

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Speaker 1: issues probably a little bit behind where marriage quality is,

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Speaker 1: but that was maybe the fastest so shall change in

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Speaker 1: America than anybody can remember. Part of it had to

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Speaker 1: do with the change in calling and marriage equality as

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Speaker 1: opposed to gay marriage. How you talk about it, how

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Speaker 1: you kind of find the way into people who are

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Speaker 1: maybe instinctually not as understanding or haven't come across these

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Speaker 1: people as much as you know, as much as some others. Um,

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Speaker 1: do you think there are things that the trans community

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Speaker 1: has done or still needs to do in order to

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Speaker 1: make further progress. There's a lot that we have to do.

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Speaker 1: And um, there's fewer trans people than there are a

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Speaker 1: game lesbian people. Um. The way, the way you've alluded

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Speaker 1: to change in the conversation from quote unquote gay marriage

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Speaker 1: to marriage equality. Having the conversation differently it's key, and

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Speaker 1: that's a lot of what I'm the work that I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to do is to shape the conversation in a

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Speaker 1: different way. But I mean, trans people are under attack

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Speaker 1: right now in this country. There's we've connect there's just

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Speaker 1: the list of like really legislative things that are happening,

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Speaker 1: policy things that are happening around with ending of guidelines

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Speaker 1: for trans kids. Um, anti trans bathroom bills introduced in

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Speaker 1: state legislatures all over the country. Transfolk Stum, there's a

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Speaker 1: fight for us to be able to serve openly in

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Speaker 1: the military right now. Um. It really it goes on

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Speaker 1: and on and on. There's seventeen with the dead last

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Speaker 1: year on record for trans people in terms of being murdered. Um,

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Speaker 1: our lives are on the line. So a lot of

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Speaker 1: it is about it's an intersectional issue. So when we

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Speaker 1: talk about trans stuff, and it gets complicated because it's

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Speaker 1: not just a gender thing, it's a race thing, it's

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Speaker 1: a class thing. It's an access to education, it's an

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Speaker 1: access to housing and jobs, and so all of those

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Speaker 1: things sort of are diminishing our left dances. Sexual assault.

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Speaker 1: I was going to say, it's it's a crime thing,

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Speaker 1: and I want to talk about intersexuality. I want to

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Speaker 1: talk about sort of being under assault in this Trump administration,

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Speaker 1: in the current policy in a second. But before we

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Speaker 1: do that, Laverne, I want to talk about your story,

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Speaker 1: your life story, because it's so fascinating and I'm sure

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Speaker 1: was harrowin when you were younger. You were born in Mobile,

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Speaker 1: you were raised by a single mom. You never met

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Speaker 1: your dad. Um, I met my dad once. You did

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Speaker 1: when you were how old? Um? I think I was

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Speaker 1: in third grade. I was in third grade. You remember that,

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Speaker 1: I do. I'm not going to talk about it, really,

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Speaker 1: I think there's some things the whole circumstances leading up

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Speaker 1: to that that we're really really painful. And I've worked

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Speaker 1: through all that with my mom, and so iud of

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Speaker 1: respect to my mother and my family. I can't talk

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Speaker 1: about all I totally understand. But yes, once I met

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Speaker 1: my my biological father, you had and you have an

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Speaker 1: identical twin brother, yes, and just just one brother, just

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Speaker 1: one sibling. Yeah, And um, I'm just curious what it

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Speaker 1: was like growing up. I think about you and Mobile Alabama.

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Speaker 1: I know you attempted suicide when you were eleven years old.

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Speaker 1: Paint a picture for us, Laverne about what life was like.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I have a lovely therapist now. She reminds

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Speaker 1: me often that it's both and so like. Yes, I

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Speaker 1: was bullied. Um, I was chased up from school tragically

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Speaker 1: every day, and and kids wanted to beat me up.

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Speaker 1: I got beaten up a lot. I was a very

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Speaker 1: fast runner. I didn't feel safe anywhere. But I was

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Speaker 1: also a really creative kid. I started dancing when I walked,

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Speaker 1: and I begged my mother to put me into dance classes,

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Speaker 1: and finally when I was in third grade, which she

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Speaker 1: found a free program where I could study dance. And

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Speaker 1: I believe that dancing saved my life. I didn't have

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Speaker 1: Quarey wrap dance routines and like competed in talent shows

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Speaker 1: all over the Southeast and there's still trophies in my

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Speaker 1: house back in Alabama. He said, you have said it

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Speaker 1: saved your life. Yeah, being creative and I was a

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Speaker 1: good student. I've read constantly. We were walking distance from

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Speaker 1: the Mobile Public Library, so I was at the library

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Speaker 1: all the time reading. I was. I was a total nerd.

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Speaker 1: As smart as you are. He's probably smarter, really, he's smarter.

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Speaker 1: My brother is brilliant. He's really really smart. Um. And

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Speaker 1: by the way, if you haven't watched or Just a

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Speaker 1: New Black, you can meet brother's definitely playing a character though.

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Speaker 1: My brother is punk rock and god. He is. He

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Speaker 1: defines and find himself as a practicing homosexual who is

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Speaker 1: Negro goth, punk rock, UM and a free black man.

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Speaker 1: He's um, He's he's he's a musician and an artist

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Speaker 1: and his work is very in Lamar is his name

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Speaker 1: in lamar dot com. If people care about his work.

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Speaker 1: He really sort of hates he hates that he didn't

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Speaker 1: Orange A New Black because people it's so funny because

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Speaker 1: if you google most famous, well known trans people. There's

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Speaker 1: like before, people always want to see what trans people

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Speaker 1: look like before. And people have a photo of my

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Speaker 1: brother and then me side by side. I'm like, that's

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Speaker 1: kind of hilarious. And they have a photo of him

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Speaker 1: from ra just a new black and he doesn't even

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Speaker 1: look like that in real lafe here it's like eyeliner

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Speaker 1: or any long hair. But that's the character he played.

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Speaker 1: That's the character he played. Yeah, my character pre transition.

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Speaker 1: But but when when did you When did you start

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Speaker 1: struggling with your gender identity? I do you? Do you

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Speaker 1: remember from the very he didn't. It wasn't a struggle

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Speaker 1: for me. It was a struggle for everybody else. I

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Speaker 1: was all. I was always feminine, I was always you know,

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Speaker 1: I really thought that boy, there was no difference in

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Speaker 1: boys and girls, cause everyone was telling me I was

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Speaker 1: a boy, and I knew that I was a girl,

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Speaker 1: so I didn't think there were any differences. And then

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Speaker 1: there was a therapy moment in third grade. I've talked

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Speaker 1: about this little talked about this a lot. My third

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Speaker 1: grade teacher, Miss Ridgeway. I called my mother on the

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Speaker 1: phone and say, your son will end up in New

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Speaker 1: Orleans wearing your dress if you don't get him into

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Speaker 1: therapy right away. So I went to therapy and there

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Speaker 1: was there was this whole sort of I guess we

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Speaker 1: would call it reparative therapy around my gender expression at

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Speaker 1: the time, that was trying to trying to fix me.

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Speaker 1: And up until that time, I didn't think that there

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Speaker 1: was really a difference between boys and girls. I knew

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Speaker 1: that I was being bullied. I knew that people were um.

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Speaker 1: People called me all kinds of anti gay slurs. They

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Speaker 1: called me a girl, and I think I said, said,

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Speaker 1: the interesting the irony of my life is that before

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Speaker 1: I transition, kids called me a girl, and after I transition,

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Speaker 1: people call me a man um and so, my gosh,

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Speaker 1: it was just it was intense, but I feel like

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Speaker 1: was everyone else's problem I And then it became and

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Speaker 1: it's something I internalized. I internalized a tremendous amount of transphobia,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, I can't be this. And it

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Speaker 1: wasn't until I moved to New York and met real

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Speaker 1: trans people that I was able to accept trans people

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Speaker 1: and then accept myself. But it was a problem for

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Speaker 1: everybody else. Lean Team Price my idol, She's an Offer singer,

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Speaker 1: and she when she talks about race, she said, it's

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Speaker 1: not it's not the black people's problem, it's everybody else's problem.

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Speaker 1: And that's really how I see it with with the

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Speaker 1: gender stuff. And I think for for me, I had

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Speaker 1: to sort of get find access to medical care and

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Speaker 1: find ways to survive because it's hard. It's as smart

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Speaker 1: as you think I might be. I was working in

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Speaker 1: a restaurant, a drag queen restaurant before Orange a New

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Speaker 1: Black sort of became a sensation and in New York City,

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Speaker 1: and I have a college degree, and I was writing,

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Speaker 1: you know, articles for Huffing Compost and I kind of

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Speaker 1: a smart chick. But a lot of people wouldn't have

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Speaker 1: hired me. You know, I couldn't really get a job.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of people who wouldn't have hired me

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Speaker 1: as brilliant as I might seem. Um, And there's a

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Speaker 1: lot there's a lot of trans people out there who

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Speaker 1: are brilliant who can't get jobs because they're trans. And

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Speaker 1: you were inspired at least in part by a trans

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Speaker 1: woman named Candice Kane. For people in audience who don't

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Speaker 1: know who she is, can you describe her and tell

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Speaker 1: her tell us the impact she had in your life.

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Speaker 1: Candice Kane. I love Candice Kane. Um She's a New

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Speaker 1: York City legend, and she's a trans woman. And a

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Speaker 1: lot of people got to know horn Caitlyn Jenner's reality

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Speaker 1: show I Am Kate. But before that, in two thousand

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Speaker 1: and seven, she became the first openly transgender actress to

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Speaker 1: have a recurring role in a prime time TV show.

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Speaker 1: And that show is Dirty, Sexy Money. That was eleven

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Speaker 1: years ago, and that moment made me believe that it

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Speaker 1: was possible to be openly trance and have a career

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Speaker 1: as an actor. I've been at this point, I had

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Speaker 1: a degree in dance. I studied acting in dance in college.

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Speaker 1: I had done a number of independent films and been

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Speaker 1: and just been going to acting class every week, you know,

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Speaker 1: and turning I in turned to student Susan Batson studio

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Speaker 1: in New York City, and I mopped the floors and

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Speaker 1: answered the phone. So I can get acting classes for free.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, Susan. It's had a little scholarship, and so

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Speaker 1: I it was being an actress something I've been. I

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Speaker 1: committed myself to, you know, just and just doing the

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Speaker 1: grind in New York doing the off off Broadway theater

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Speaker 1: or student films or what. But I could do just

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Speaker 1: to work. And when I saw that moment from Candice,

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Speaker 1: I was like, this is the moment and that I

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Speaker 1: sent out postcards. I love this story. By the way,

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Speaker 1: was this sending out postcards from New York or from mobile?

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Speaker 1: It was I was in New York, Okay, so it's

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Speaker 1: already in New York. I went to college in New

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Speaker 1: York and UM sent out postcards to agents and casting director.

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Speaker 1: It's like five And I was like, Laburne Cox is

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Speaker 1: the answer to all your transgender acting, because I mean

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Speaker 1: there was sort of a niche for being trans and

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Speaker 1: being an actor. Not a lot of great parts at

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Speaker 1: the time, but there were. There was something mostly sex

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Speaker 1: workers and crying victims. Um. It's not funny, but it

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Speaker 1: kind of is. UM. And then the manager that I

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Speaker 1: have now to this day, Paul Heloppo, was one of

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Speaker 1: the four meetings I got from that. There was five postcards.

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Speaker 1: That's amazing. I mean that's a real lesson, by the way,

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Speaker 1: and ingenuity and persistence and just putting yourself out there

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Speaker 1: that you sent all these postcards out and you got

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Speaker 1: four meetings. From the meetings. I had a commercial agent

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Speaker 1: for a minute that didn't work out, but then I

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Speaker 1: got a legit acting agent. Um. Paul Heloppo was my

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Speaker 1: agent for many years now he's my manager. And he

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Speaker 1: saw something in me, and for there were many years

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Speaker 1: didn't work at all over the eleven years that we've

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Speaker 1: been together. That I would be like, my guys, why

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Speaker 1: had he not dropped me? You know, if you haven't,

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Speaker 1: you're and agent, you have a client and they're not working.

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Speaker 1: But he just saw something of men. He's stuck with

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Speaker 1: me and it's kind of worked out well. It certainly has.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you did a number of appearances on lawn Order,

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Speaker 1: I know, and then you did some reality shows, some

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Speaker 1: independent films. You produced a documentary, produced a couple of documents,

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Speaker 1: and one one in particular about the lives of seven

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Speaker 1: trans children. I've seven trans youth um the time they

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Speaker 1: were between the ages of twelve and twenty four. I'm

427
00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:33,720
Speaker 1: so proud of all of them right now. Um Zoe

428
00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:37,600
Speaker 1: Luna just had her HBO show about her Kisa. She's

429
00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,960
Speaker 1: she was twelve when we interviewed her. Shane, her niece,

430
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,680
Speaker 1: has been in a Kinneth cole Ad and he got

431
00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:46,000
Speaker 1: a full scholarship to Columbia at grad school after the

432
00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:49,879
Speaker 1: Tea World. I'm just anyways, all of them are really fantastic,

433
00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:52,240
Speaker 1: and I'm so proud of all of them. Think I

434
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:54,320
Speaker 1: mean again, I know, I know, I'm kind of like

435
00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:59,520
Speaker 1: totally fan girling on poor Laverne, But think about what

436
00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,760
Speaker 1: you were able to do for these young people by

437
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:06,800
Speaker 1: helping them adjust, by giving them attention, and by kind

438
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:10,720
Speaker 1: of launching their careers. I think what we I try

439
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:13,199
Speaker 1: not to be too arrogant about what I did. I

440
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:15,240
Speaker 1: think what we were able to do with Liver and

441
00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:17,359
Speaker 1: cost Bus Instity where and you can watch the documentary

442
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:21,199
Speaker 1: on on YouTube or on Logo TV, is that we

443
00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,840
Speaker 1: gave them a platform and tell their stories. And then um,

444
00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,640
Speaker 1: with that, what were they able to do on top

445
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:29,760
Speaker 1: of that? What I learned, and I had this conversation

446
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:31,840
Speaker 1: with every one of them, that this is an opportunity

447
00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:35,159
Speaker 1: for you to have a platform. Now it's time to hustle.

448
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:37,600
Speaker 1: And what I learned from having done reality TV when

449
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:39,160
Speaker 1: I did a show called I Wanna Work for Ditty

450
00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:41,520
Speaker 1: in two thousand and eight, and that was um, that's

451
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:43,800
Speaker 1: directly because of Candice Cane. That was really the next

452
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:45,960
Speaker 1: year because I sort of put myself out there in

453
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:50,639
Speaker 1: a new way. I learned that reality television was a platform.

454
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:53,879
Speaker 1: But then now it was time for me to hustle

455
00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,760
Speaker 1: and to um really capitalize on that. And so that's

456
00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:58,880
Speaker 1: what I've I've tried to do in a way that's

457
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,359
Speaker 1: respectful to myself and to the art and what I

458
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:03,440
Speaker 1: want to do. UM. But that was what I said

459
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:05,240
Speaker 1: to the young people. So then it was on them.

460
00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:09,320
Speaker 1: But I mean, let's be honest, giving them a platform

461
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:12,840
Speaker 1: change their worlds. I hope, so, I hope, so I will.

462
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:14,760
Speaker 1: Shane has told me that it has, and a few

463
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:16,360
Speaker 1: of the young people have told me that it has

464
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:23,280
Speaker 1: been transformative for them, So that that makes me happy.

465
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,200
Speaker 1: Let's take a quick break. We'll be back with more

466
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:30,439
Speaker 1: of our fascinating conversation with this week's wonder Woman, Laverne Cops.

467
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:39,000
Speaker 1: The truth, Katie, is that most of us are brushing

468
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469
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470
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471
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472
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Speaker 1: They cost a fraction of bulkier brushes and packs the

473
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474
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Speaker 1: in timer and guiding pulses this kind of turning me

475
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Speaker 1: on help you cleaned for the full Dennis recommended two minutes.

476
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Speaker 1: Quip subscription is built for your health, delivering new brusheads

477
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478
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Speaker 1: Quip also comes with a suction mount that unsticks to

479
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Speaker 1: use as a cover for hygienic travel. Now everyone loves

480
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Speaker 1: Quip jenks. They were on Oprah's OH List name one

481
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:31,200
Speaker 1: of Time's Best Inventions, and is the first subscription electric

482
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:35,360
Speaker 1: toothbrush accepted by the a d A, the American Dental Association.

483
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:38,159
Speaker 1: Quip starts at just twenty and if you go to

484
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,680
Speaker 1: get quip dot com slash Katie right now, you'll get

485
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 1: your first Refiel pack free with a Quip electric toothbrush.

486
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:49,640
Speaker 1: That's your first Refeel pack free at get quip dot

487
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:54,240
Speaker 1: com slash Katie spelled g E t q u I

488
00:24:54,400 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 1: P dot com slash k A t I E. Thanks

489
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:02,880
Speaker 1: as usual to those of you who have left your

490
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:07,959
Speaker 1: reviews over at Apple Podcasts, like already is this your friend? Already?

491
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:14,159
Speaker 1: Kid who says objectively, I love Katie Kirk's podcast. They

492
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:16,920
Speaker 1: make you feel good and you always learned things. Wish

493
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 1: she did them every day? Well already, it's very similar

494
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,680
Speaker 1: to a review my mother gave me personally every day.

495
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 1: Thanks for the props already, but I think we're gonna

496
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 1: have to stick to once a week for now. Leave

497
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,399
Speaker 1: us a review on Apple Podcasts and we may just

498
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 1: read it on the air. And now back to our

499
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 1: conversation with Laverne Cox. Your big break when most people

500
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 1: in this country first clapped eyes on Laverne Cox was

501
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,240
Speaker 1: when you got the role on Orange, just the New Black.

502
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,720
Speaker 1: How did that come about? And how has that changed

503
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,679
Speaker 1: your life? It's funny because right before I booked Orange,

504
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,160
Speaker 1: I was thinking maybe I was done acting. Maybe I'd

505
00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:59,359
Speaker 1: been a number of independent films that done some TV,

506
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:01,720
Speaker 1: and I's thinking maybe I was done and hand booked

507
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 1: any thing. For going on a year, I'm still working

508
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 1: in the restaurant. I still working at Lucky Change the

509
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,880
Speaker 1: restaurant every week. And then I got the audition and

510
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 1: I did two scenes, one from the pilot episode, of

511
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,560
Speaker 1: orange and one from the episode three, the famous duct

512
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 1: tape flip flops um scene from season one. In fact,

513
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 1: I'm glad you mentioned that because we have a clip

514
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:28,359
Speaker 1: from that since you did the perfect scene. All right,

515
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 1: well let's listen to you. We'll just remind people I

516
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:38,359
Speaker 1: made my own don't carry us last their team duct

517
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:42,439
Speaker 1: tape metals a very in the season. I remember that

518
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 1: scene so well, Laverne. When you heard about this role,

519
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 1: were you just thinking, oh God, this is going to

520
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 1: be so fantastic? Were you trufidacious? You know? I was

521
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:55,440
Speaker 1: at an event with my manager Paul, and he said,

522
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 1: I have an audition for you. It's set in a

523
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:00,639
Speaker 1: women's prison. Your a hairdresser and wims through the women's prison.

524
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,159
Speaker 1: I was like, that sounds it sounded really intriguing. He

525
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,719
Speaker 1: said it was a web series and this is so

526
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 1: there were no streaming television shows. There were web series.

527
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,160
Speaker 1: So I was just like, okay, a web series. Cool.

528
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:15,159
Speaker 1: And then I got the pilot script and it was

529
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,480
Speaker 1: brilliant and um JINGI co when I was a huge

530
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:20,120
Speaker 1: fan of Weeds, like huge and I love her by

531
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 1: the way, I love her too, a creator and exactly

532
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:26,640
Speaker 1: and then I, um did the audition, got the part.

533
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:28,119
Speaker 1: I was screaming and was on the street and I

534
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,679
Speaker 1: started screaming, and I was hopeful that people might watch it.

535
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:33,959
Speaker 1: But I was just so excited to be working. I

536
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 1: was I dedicated my life to being an actor, and

537
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:39,639
Speaker 1: it's a really hard thing to do, to be an artist,

538
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 1: and so I was just happy to have a job.

539
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:44,120
Speaker 1: And then it turned into this thing where like episode

540
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 1: three was my character's backstory and Jodie Foster was directing,

541
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,120
Speaker 1: and that was a dream come true. And um, did

542
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:51,879
Speaker 1: you have a moment when you thought, Wow, this is

543
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:56,160
Speaker 1: really clicking, this is this is something special season one?

544
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 1: It was just what I love about Season one of

545
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 1: our show is that it was so about the work,

546
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:03,119
Speaker 1: and I was just so excited to do the work

547
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 1: to really that I've been training for all these years.

548
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 1: And then there was a moment I think episode and

549
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:09,920
Speaker 1: it's the rat battle scene episodes six or so of

550
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,400
Speaker 1: season one, and I looked around and it was room

551
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:16,120
Speaker 1: full of women of all ages and backgrounds and sexual

552
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 1: orientations and and I'm in the middle there, and it

553
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 1: just was like, this is the coolest thing I've ever

554
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 1: seen in my life. I don't know if anybody's gonna

555
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 1: watch it or care, but this is awesome and I

556
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 1: did honestly think anybody would watch it. I knew it

557
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 1: was good and special, but I just had never seen

558
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 1: anything like it, and so I was like, where does

559
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 1: this fit in the marketplace? You know? And then it's

560
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 1: on Netflix. I was just my my dream really was.

561
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 1: I was like, I hope casting directors watch it and

562
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 1: see that I can act, and maybe I'll get another job.

563
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 1: You know. That was my that for real, That was

564
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 1: for people didn't think of Netflix is the behea meth

565
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 1: that it's become spending seven billion dollars a year on

566
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 1: content and all the rest. But let me ask you,

567
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 1: since you first appeared and broke through on that show,

568
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 1: how do you think opera tenner days for transactors have changed? Gosh,

569
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 1: it's a it's a mixed bag. When I talked to

570
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 1: my transpants, you are actors. There are more roles than

571
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 1: there used to be in the roles are different. Um.

572
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 1: I'm so excited about Ryan Murphy's new show, Post is

573
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 1: coming out of this summer. The six transgender series regular

574
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 1: unless you all trans women of color, and they're so

575
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 1: talented um and what is it about. It's about the

576
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 1: ballroom community in New York City in the nineteen eighties,

577
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 1: Like that movie Paris Is Burning if you saw that,

578
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:32,120
Speaker 1: it's about these balls that are sort of competitions where

579
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 1: people vogue and people sort of have different categories like

580
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 1: realness and face, etcetera. So it's the sort of drag

581
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 1: trans LGBTQ balls of color that Madonna's Vogue comes out

582
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 1: of that community. And it's really when um our current

583
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 1: president was building all these huge buildings and so that

584
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 1: you know, New York was changing a lot in the

585
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 1: late eighties as well. So that that's the backdrop of

586
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 1: the of the pose, which is that's so excited about it.

587
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:58,640
Speaker 1: So that's exciting for for people in the trans community.

588
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 1: But how has it been a mixed bag? Well, there's

589
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 1: still a lot of casting ridgers aren't calling USand for

590
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 1: rules that are not trans. Well, that's the thing, right,

591
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:08,480
Speaker 1: is the real victory going to be when you don't

592
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 1: have to play a trans person but you get to

593
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 1: play a woman. I just get to play characters and

594
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 1: it doesn't and the gender identity doesn't matter. I think

595
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 1: that is the victory. More opportunities and I think, but

596
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 1: there's so many trans stories that need to be told

597
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 1: as well, and so more trans folks directing and writing

598
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 1: and working behind the scenes is actually really crucial to

599
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 1: to pose this credit. There's two to right trans writers

600
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 1: and there's some trans people directing and working on the crew.

601
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 1: Um of a show I did and CBS called Doubt,

602
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 1: we had a trans writer. And I have a show

603
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 1: um in development at ABC now called Spirited, UM that

604
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 1: is not a trans character, and UM that's the lead

605
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 1: of so hopefully that that pilot will be in the pipeline.

606
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 1: It's but you feel like there you feel like you

607
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 1: need to have both both stories of trans people but

608
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 1: also trans people being cast without regard to their gender identity,

609
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 1: because if you're right for the part, it shouldn't matter.

610
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 1: I've always said, if it doesn't involve minstrual cycle or pregnancy,

611
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 1: I should be able to play it. And then the

612
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 1: question is does the character become trans when I play

613
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 1: the character. I'm as a black actress, whenever I play

614
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 1: a character, the character becomes black, And do it just

615
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 1: the character become trans when I play her, even if

616
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 1: it's not written that way. UM, So that's an interesting

617
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 1: question that will so that we'll see. Well to that point,

618
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 1: you have cis gendered men, that is, people who were

619
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 1: born as men, playing signed mail at birth, assigned mail

620
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 1: at birth and identify as male. Thank you for them

621
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 1: being cast as trans women. Yes, I e. Jeffrey Tambor

622
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 1: on Transparent although you know he may e y Leto,

623
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 1: I e Eddie Redmayne. Who are you know? UM? I

624
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 1: was about to say, all lovely people, but how do

625
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 1: you feel about that? Though you know, um, there is

626
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 1: certainly a push now in UM, in the trans community

627
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 1: and beyond to cast trans people to play trans characters,

628
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 1: trans people new jobs. I said earlier than our employment

629
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 1: rate is about four times in national average UM. And

630
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 1: Jim Richard's a brilliant actress. She argues that when physically,

631
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 1: when cis gender men, non transgender men or cast to

632
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 1: play transgender women, that least to violence against us because

633
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 1: it sends the message that, she contends, that trans women

634
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 1: are really men. So Jared Leto beautifully plays this transcharacter

635
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 1: in Dallas Bias Club and then arrives at the Oscars

636
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 1: and Golden Globes with a beard. And so folks men

637
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:25,479
Speaker 1: who find themselves attracted to trans women then see this

638
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 1: guy with a beard, and it sends this message their

639
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 1: trans women are really not women at all, but men,

640
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 1: and so she contends that that leadst to balance against

641
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 1: So I think the other piece of that is that

642
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 1: men who are attracted to trans women need to deal

643
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 1: with their internalized homaphobia and transphobia. What's been so exciting

644
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 1: for me as a transactress playing a transparacteror and Orange

645
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 1: a New Black is that people have audience members have

646
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 1: not just empathized with the character that I played, but

647
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 1: they find themselves empathizing with the actress who plays her.

648
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 1: And so there's been so much I think it's inarguable

649
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 1: that there's been so much change because of that part

650
00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,080
Speaker 1: that I got to play, and people connecting with this

651
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 1: character and then connecting with the actress and a human level. Well,

652
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 1: think how much how many people have been educated by Sophia, right,

653
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 1: I mean, it broke through this whole notion of gender

654
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 1: identity and it just got right to the heart of

655
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 1: the person, which can I think is the most persuasive

656
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 1: tool possible. Right, you have to be able to see

657
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 1: people as human beings, and I think, according to a

658
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 1: study from glad of folks in the United States do

659
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,959
Speaker 1: not know someone trans and so what what we do

660
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 1: in the media is how folks get to know trans

661
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 1: folks exactly. It's crucial. It's it's life saving and or

662
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 1: or life threatening if the representation in the media does

663
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 1: not accurately and multidimensionally depict who trans people really are.

664
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 1: One of the people I featured in my documentary was

665
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 1: Gavin Graham. You can't see right now, but Laverne just

666
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 1: kind of made a little prayer sign and held it

667
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:56,719
Speaker 1: up to her face because Gavin is an extraordinary person.

668
00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 1: How did you first get to know Gavin? I, you know,

669
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 1: I became aware of his case in Gosh, and it

670
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:07,480
Speaker 1: would have been um, we should say, by the way, background,

671
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,959
Speaker 1: by the way, Gavin came out as transgender in high

672
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 1: school in Virginia. His county school board said that he

673
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 1: couldn't use the boys restroom. So apologies for the interruption,

674
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 1: but now that's fine. Um, well, initially he was allowed,

675
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 1: and then parents found out and said we can't do this,

676
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 1: and everything was fine. Gavin was going to the boys room,

677
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 1: the kids didn't have any there was no issue. And

678
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:30,239
Speaker 1: then the school board finds out and says no, this

679
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 1: can't happen, and they had a big hearing. By the way,

680
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 1: and just just before we talk a little more about Gavin,

681
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 1: we have a clip from what I thought was one

682
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:41,279
Speaker 1: of the most moving moments of my documentaries when, by

683
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:43,320
Speaker 1: the way, we didn't film it. It was when Gavin

684
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:45,799
Speaker 1: spoke before the school board and there was a whole

685
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 1: group of people, and he was fifteen years old, and

686
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:55,080
Speaker 1: he was so composed and so extraordinary. Let's listen to

687
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 1: what he said. I've been aware of who I was,

688
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 1: so I was a very young it and it's taken

689
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:02,759
Speaker 1: me a very long time to be able to be

690
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:07,439
Speaker 1: myself and be okay with that. The person I am now,

691
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 1: being able to have all of my rights in full

692
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 1: is such a massive dynamic difference from the person I

693
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:18,719
Speaker 1: was just last summer. I would like to say two

694
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,360
Speaker 1: of that. If the evidence said that me using the

695
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 1: boy's room would be catastrophic, I would not be advocating

696
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,840
Speaker 1: for myself, regardless of my personal emotions over this issue.

697
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 1: I look only at the facts as one should in

698
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 1: an issue that requires separation of church and state, and

699
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 1: feelingth and state. That clip makes me cry every time

700
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,839
Speaker 1: I hear at Laverne and so you heard about Gavin's situation.

701
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 1: Did you reach out to him? I did, Actually, I

702
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 1: really my friend Chaise Strangio, who was the a c

703
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 1: l Youth Laurier. The a c L U is handling

704
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:49,200
Speaker 1: Gavin's case, and it was a major it was gonna

705
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 1: be a major decision or it was it would have

706
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:52,359
Speaker 1: been the first time the Supreme Court would have heard

707
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:55,319
Speaker 1: an issue about transgender rights. And so I sent him

708
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 1: a video message and then we arranged to meet to

709
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 1: meet Gavin. It was like a week after the Grammys

710
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:04,239
Speaker 1: a year ago, I remember, and I just I was

711
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:06,759
Speaker 1: moved by everything I had read about him and the

712
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:08,759
Speaker 1: videos I've seen about him, and then he's when I

713
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 1: met him. He's so smart and so calm and composed.

714
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 1: It's amazing. I freak out. I mean, I just when

715
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:18,279
Speaker 1: I don't think it's attention is on me and I

716
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 1: get such anxiety and he seems so calm and his

717
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 1: mom um. It's amazing. I think it's over fifty percent

718
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 1: of trans kits when they have family support, their lives

719
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 1: are completely different in terms of positive outcomes for them

720
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 1: being who they are. Because we should just mention how

721
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:41,320
Speaker 1: high the suicide rate is among trans children and trans youth. Yeah,

722
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 1: it's over over forty one of trans people have attempted suicide,

723
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:49,760
Speaker 1: and I think it's of trans youth have have attempted suicide,

724
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 1: and so it's I think sometimes people want to sort

725
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 1: of suggest that we're mentally ill. But if you live

726
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:57,760
Speaker 1: in a culture that tells you constantly and sends messages

727
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:00,799
Speaker 1: to you constantly that you are mentally ill, that you

728
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 1: are a deviant, that you shouldn't exist, and that every

729
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 1: message you're receiving constantly from everyone around you and from

730
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,720
Speaker 1: the media is that you shouldn't exist and that you

731
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 1: are pariah, it is really hard to love yourself. It

732
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:16,839
Speaker 1: is really hard to think that you have a right

733
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:19,400
Speaker 1: to exist. And that's what I want. That's what I

734
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:21,399
Speaker 1: want trans kids to know that you have a right

735
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 1: to exist and that you're anointed, that you are beautiful,

736
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,000
Speaker 1: and that you're here for a reason, and that you

737
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 1: have to find a way to survive um so you

738
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:32,839
Speaker 1: can fulfill that reason for being here. The Supreme Court

739
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,319
Speaker 1: decided not to hear Gavin's case. They decided not to

740
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 1: hear Gavin's case because the current administration. The Justice Department

741
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 1: rescinded the Obama you're a guideline around how transgender kids

742
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:44,360
Speaker 1: should be treated in school. And and and so when the

743
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 1: Justice Department rescinded those guidelines, then there was no case.

744
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,759
Speaker 1: There was no case. What did those guidelines say the guys?

745
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 1: So basically a lot of people thought what they were

746
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 1: about bathrooms? Right, So they did say that, you know,

747
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 1: trans kits should be able to use the bathroom, that

748
00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 1: it's consistent with their gender identity, but also talked about

749
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:03,839
Speaker 1: preferred name. It talked about how other kids should treat

750
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:06,360
Speaker 1: them in school. So it was an whole host of guidelines.

751
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,439
Speaker 1: It was really adoptions, really making making sure that trans

752
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 1: kids were safe in schools and that they were treated

753
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 1: in a way that was respectful to them so they

754
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 1: could learn. Education is the reason I'm sitting here, and

755
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 1: people should have safe schools. And that was just the first,

756
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,920
Speaker 1: I think thing that the Trump administration did that has

757
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:27,240
Speaker 1: started to erode the progress that had heretofore been made

758
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 1: before he was selected. Yeah, not just for trans people,

759
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 1: but for across the board the Justice Department. Even though

760
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 1: people have to remember that the current administration has not

761
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 1: been very successful legislatively, but in terms of the Justice Department,

762
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 1: they have been very successful rolling back mandatory minimum so

763
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:46,239
Speaker 1: many um progressive things that the Obama administration um did,

764
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 1: so we got to continue to resist. Unter fact, back

765
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:53,400
Speaker 1: in July, President Trump tweeted the transgender individuals will not

766
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:57,400
Speaker 1: be allowed to serve in the US military. Has that

767
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 1: been implemented? So um he remember for that was so

768
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 1: crazy because ostensibly President Trump had cleared this with his

769
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:08,399
Speaker 1: military leaders, but then they said he never talked to them,

770
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,839
Speaker 1: ostensibly meaning he didn't right and then suddenly and then

771
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 1: that changed. Right. So after after the tweet, the guest

772
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:19,359
Speaker 1: Department of Defense got some policy together to basically try

773
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,279
Speaker 1: to ban on transple And now, mind you, trans pople

774
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:25,319
Speaker 1: have just been able to serve openly barely, and it

775
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 1: was something that like Obama, but luckily at this point

776
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:33,959
Speaker 1: to judges have said that this is unconstitutional and there's

777
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:35,759
Speaker 1: no reason to ban trans people. I think it's probably

778
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:38,239
Speaker 1: gonna end up at the Supreme Court. So that meantime,

779
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 1: what's happening to transgender people who are currently serving in

780
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:44,880
Speaker 1: the military. It's my from my understanding, they should be

781
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:48,319
Speaker 1: treated with kindness and respect. But again, it sends a

782
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:51,879
Speaker 1: message when the leader of the free world. I feel

783
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 1: that I use that term loosely. Now, UM, let the

784
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:57,239
Speaker 1: record show there's some more quotes tackling UM says that

785
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,319
Speaker 1: you shouldn't have a right to serve your right. And

786
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 1: what other things have happened in the last year Laverne

787
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 1: that have really kind of put trans people in the crosshairs? UM,

788
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:12,880
Speaker 1: I think over twenty states have passed about fifty pieces

789
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 1: of legislation that basically criminalized trans people using the bathroom

790
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 1: that is consistent with their gender agentity. Fifty pieces of legislation.

791
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:23,839
Speaker 1: A number of those pieces of legislation have been struck down,

792
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 1: notably in Texas. But a lot of people think that

793
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 1: um h B two in New Carolina, a lot of

794
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:32,280
Speaker 1: people thought that was repealed. It actually wasn't. They basically

795
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:35,919
Speaker 1: made a new bill that basically has instituced the same

796
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 1: kind of discrimination against trans people because they wanted to

797
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:42,239
Speaker 1: basically get their corporate folks back, And so a lot

798
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:44,239
Speaker 1: of people think that that settled. In North Carolina, it

799
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:46,960
Speaker 1: actually isn't. The a c l U and other organizations

800
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:48,560
Speaker 1: are still I think it's lamb I Legal are still

801
00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 1: suing the state of North Carolina because they're trying to

802
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:53,719
Speaker 1: criminalize trans people going to the bathroom. This has had

803
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:58,279
Speaker 1: a profound impact on politics. The governor of North Carolina

804
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 1: who signed the infamous bathroom band legendar not with us anymore. Yeah,

805
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 1: he lost his race. I think he's still around, but

806
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 1: he's no longer governor exactly. Um largely as a result

807
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 1: of the backlash on this issue. And last year we

808
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 1: saw Danica Rome I think that's how you pronounced her

809
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 1: name in Virginia be the first openly transperson elected and

810
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:27,239
Speaker 1: seated in the US State House. Andrea Jenkins was the

811
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:30,960
Speaker 1: first openly transgender black woman to be elected to public office.

812
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:35,400
Speaker 1: US shows elect to the Minneapolis City Council and met Andrea.

813
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 1: I've met Andrea. We did a panel when I was

814
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:39,920
Speaker 1: in Minnesota, like a couple of years ago. And now

815
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 1: Chelsea Manning has filed to run first Senate in the

816
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 1: state of Maryland and more of a controversial character, having

817
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:48,320
Speaker 1: nothing to do with first. I mean, I think it

818
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 1: says a lot that we've seen this happen and that

819
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:53,719
Speaker 1: that must be a positive in a year that's been

820
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:55,839
Speaker 1: full of a lot of negatives. I think what has

821
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:58,759
Speaker 1: happened because of the current administration is that a lot

822
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,640
Speaker 1: of folks UM various backgrounds are choosing to run for

823
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 1: office and are winning. And that I think if if

824
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 1: there's anything positive that has come out of UM this

825
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:11,600
Speaker 1: current administration, is that folks have woken up. And I

826
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:14,560
Speaker 1: think a lot of folks got complacent under my beloved

827
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 1: President Obama. I love him, and we miss you, We

828
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 1: miss you Obama's UM. I think a lot of those

829
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 1: got very complacent and didn't realize that UM a lot

830
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 1: of basic civil liberties were at stake. And I think

831
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:30,400
Speaker 1: that is very clear now. The last time I checked,

832
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:33,319
Speaker 1: and I'm sure the numbers higher, eleven thousand women were

833
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 1: running for office. Uh. And I think that brings us

834
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:39,920
Speaker 1: to sort of the me too movement. And I'm curious

835
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:43,320
Speaker 1: what you think of this movement, Laverne. If you believe

836
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:49,440
Speaker 1: it is intersectional enough, that is so it's really talking

837
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 1: about race, it's talking about gender, it's talking about gender identity, uh,

838
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:59,240
Speaker 1: not just white women in Hollywood and or beyond even

839
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:02,239
Speaker 1: and that if you think it's expensive enough, So what

840
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 1: are your thoughts. I think we can always be more intersectional,

841
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:10,440
Speaker 1: we can always um include more. Really yeah, I mean

842
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 1: intersectionality really for people. I don't just experience the world

843
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:17,279
Speaker 1: as a trans woman. I experienced the world as a

844
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:20,719
Speaker 1: black person and as and and I have multiple identities

845
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:23,320
Speaker 1: and and having a social movements as funny as I've

846
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:25,480
Speaker 1: been doing a lot of rereading of Bell Hooks and

847
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 1: a lot of black feminists from you know, the seventies

848
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 1: and eighties, and and really for over thirty years that

849
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 1: have been UM, women of color, queer women have been

850
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:38,040
Speaker 1: critiquing UM a lot of second way feminism that you know,

851
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 1: thirty years ago, black feminists were like, we need to

852
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 1: expand this idea of womanhood and we cannot um use

853
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:48,880
Speaker 1: biological essentialism to have conversations about women. That we have

854
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 1: to be inclusive. So that conversation has been happening for

855
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 1: a really long time. I never doubted, I mean, I

856
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 1: don't think anyone can hear her and and doubt how

857
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 1: well informed, well read you are on these issues. I mean,

858
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:04,319
Speaker 1: it's unbelievable, but anyway, but but so that conversation has

859
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 1: been happening for a really long time, and I mean

860
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:09,239
Speaker 1: we just I think what we have to look at.

861
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 1: I mean with Weinstein, for example, I remember all these

862
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:15,120
Speaker 1: actresses came out and said, you know that he had,

863
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:17,319
Speaker 1: you know, assaulted him and done the things that he's

864
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 1: accused of doing. First person he challenged was Lupete ni Ago,

865
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:24,200
Speaker 1: a black woman. When he all these other women, he

866
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:26,279
Speaker 1: didn't say anything, he didn't say that I didn't do it,

867
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:28,920
Speaker 1: he'd But the first person he challenge was was Lupete

868
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:31,239
Speaker 1: and the Ago, And I think there this can't be

869
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:34,720
Speaker 1: a coincidence. Her blackness can't be a coincidence. I noticed

870
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:37,000
Speaker 1: when some trans women have come forward and said that

871
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:40,800
Speaker 1: they have been sexually assaulted, there's been a different tenor

872
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:43,360
Speaker 1: in terms of the ways in which they've been believed

873
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:48,319
Speaker 1: as opposed to other women who are not trans. It's

874
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 1: it's all very very tricky because there's a lot of

875
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:52,680
Speaker 1: there's a lot of trauma. I think when we were

876
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 1: talking about sexual assault and sexual harassment, I think it's

877
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:59,440
Speaker 1: really really important to talk about the healing that has

878
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:02,160
Speaker 1: to happen. You've been a victim or survivor, and it's

879
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:05,120
Speaker 1: one of I think the worst things that can happen

880
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:08,719
Speaker 1: to someone, if not the worst. UM, and so all

881
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 1: the healing that has to happen, and UM, what's exciting

882
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 1: is that UM, I mean, I've been rereading, you know, UM,

883
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 1: some of my belthooks and talking back. She says. One

884
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 1: of the most useful tools that women have, and it's

885
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 1: not just women who've been victims of sexual assault and harassment,

886
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:27,520
Speaker 1: is our voice to be able to speak up and

887
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:31,440
Speaker 1: to speak out. And so it's amazing that that I

888
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:33,520
Speaker 1: think we were just the country was just ready for that.

889
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:35,920
Speaker 1: But UM, I think we still need to. UM. And

890
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:38,440
Speaker 1: it's not just because I and I. It's not just

891
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:42,240
Speaker 1: about including trans women, including women of color, including folks

892
00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:45,360
Speaker 1: with disabilities or folks are incarcerated, including all these folks,

893
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:47,239
Speaker 1: but it's like, what does it mean to have these

894
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 1: folks in leadership positions and decision making roles. I'm finding myself, UM,

895
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:54,640
Speaker 1: I'm very blessed that be in the position I'm in,

896
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 1: but I'm trying to be critical of it, and I'm

897
00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 1: trying to really think about all the folks out there

898
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:01,440
Speaker 1: who don't have the platform I have, and what do

899
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 1: they need and what would they want me to say

900
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:07,239
Speaker 1: when I'm in in these positions? And so much of

901
00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 1: it is about having not just the tokenized Hollywood trans

902
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 1: woman lover and Cox in the in positions, um, and

903
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:18,759
Speaker 1: it's seats with seats at the table, but having diverse

904
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:21,719
Speaker 1: and other folks who don't have the same privileges I have. Well,

905
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:23,800
Speaker 1: it seems to me that you know, we have to

906
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:27,200
Speaker 1: start moving from outrage to policy changes and putting systems

907
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 1: in place, and also obviously attitudes. Sometimes I think laws

908
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 1: precede attitudes. If you look at the civil rights movement, right,

909
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:39,240
Speaker 1: I mean, it wasn't a popular thing to enact certain

910
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:41,759
Speaker 1: pieces of legislation, but it was the right thing, and

911
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:45,319
Speaker 1: then attitudes followed and somewhat. I mean, I think if

912
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:47,800
Speaker 1: you look at that, that's a really good example that

913
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:50,120
Speaker 1: we had the voting Civil Rights Act and the Voting

914
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:52,520
Speaker 1: Rights Act um that were past, and then black folks

915
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:55,799
Speaker 1: that did not end racism in America. Ironically, you know,

916
00:46:55,920 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 1: black folks are incarcerated crazy rates, that stuff, profile police,

917
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:03,440
Speaker 1: et cetera. That's for sure. But I think if sometimes

918
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:07,319
Speaker 1: if if leaders wait for public uh sentiment to be

919
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 1: on their side, that sometimes they'd be waiting for a

920
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:12,400
Speaker 1: very long time to at least take the first step

921
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:16,719
Speaker 1: of enacting legislation. That's that is hopefully eventually one day,

922
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:20,239
Speaker 1: fingers crossed going to change hearts and minds. But where

923
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:23,040
Speaker 1: should we go from here? Um? I think it's been

924
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:28,200
Speaker 1: so extraordinary to see people being able to express their themselves,

925
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:32,400
Speaker 1: use their voices, exhibit their outrage. But at some point

926
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:35,120
Speaker 1: do we need to then take it to the next step?

927
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:38,400
Speaker 1: In Hollywood, by the way, there is this initiative called

928
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:42,440
Speaker 1: times up um that may be a part of moving

929
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 1: forward on these issues. But but but what are they

930
00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:47,600
Speaker 1: going to do other than raise money for a legal

931
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:51,840
Speaker 1: defense fund for you know, I mean and not just Hollywood.

932
00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 1: But how can policies and change and how can we

933
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:58,440
Speaker 1: put systems in place so that it is better for

934
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 1: that woman who's working on an simply line at a

935
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:04,680
Speaker 1: factory in Iowa. That's part of it. Rosa Clemente, who's

936
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:06,360
Speaker 1: been doing a lot of work around Puerto Rico, we

937
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:08,880
Speaker 1: have to remember their Puerto Ricans. Um. The island is

938
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:12,160
Speaker 1: still mostly without power and without clean drinking water. She

939
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:15,920
Speaker 1: reminded me when we met that that protests are important,

940
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 1: but then we have to do the organizing after the protests,

941
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:23,000
Speaker 1: and so the organizing is about policy and hopefully systemic shifts. Um.

942
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:25,439
Speaker 1: So I was at times that meeting this past week,

943
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:27,840
Speaker 1: and and so the Legal Defense Fund. It's one of

944
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:30,720
Speaker 1: the things that times upsuring. There's other things, other work too.

945
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:34,160
Speaker 1: That's that's that's on the horizon, that that you'll find

946
00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:36,800
Speaker 1: out more about later than it's about those policy shifts,

947
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:41,120
Speaker 1: and I think really it's how do we make workplaces

948
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:45,359
Speaker 1: safe for everyone? Anti sexual harassment policies have existed in

949
00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:51,160
Speaker 1: of UM organizations for a very long time, but so

950
00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:52,960
Speaker 1: much of that it's about not getting sued. But it

951
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:55,759
Speaker 1: doesn't change the culture in those organizations. So we have

952
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:57,920
Speaker 1: to be able to change the culture and then who's

953
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:00,720
Speaker 1: in power. A lot of folks think that about having

954
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:04,640
Speaker 1: diverse leadership, that we have more women and leadership positions

955
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:07,279
Speaker 1: and more people of color and just more diversity and

956
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:10,160
Speaker 1: so so so, and hopefully that we can begin to

957
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:13,640
Speaker 1: change the culture so that it's not okay to interrupt

958
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:15,800
Speaker 1: women at meetings and so it's not okay to that

959
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 1: he peeting. What is no, that's man's plaining. Well, I'm

960
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 1: doing this whole thing for National Geographic and one of

961
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:24,880
Speaker 1: my hours is on gender and equality in Hollywood and

962
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:28,800
Speaker 1: Silicon Valley and beyond. And there's something called he peating,

963
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:30,759
Speaker 1: and that means if you're at a meeting and a

964
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:33,640
Speaker 1: woman has this suggestion and everybody is like yeah, yeah, yeah,

965
00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:36,000
Speaker 1: it kind of blows her off. Then the man says it,

966
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:39,440
Speaker 1: and so there's this hepeating. There's this thing called he

967
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:41,759
Speaker 1: peating that men do where a woman makes a point

968
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:43,719
Speaker 1: and everyone ignores her and then the gun thank you

969
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:47,400
Speaker 1: for that. It's the same thing and thank you for

970
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:50,719
Speaker 1: the illustration. Right, But anyway, But but I do think

971
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:53,440
Speaker 1: that those kinds of cultural shifts instead, so that not

972
00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:56,280
Speaker 1: that we're in these things are important. I think sometimes

973
00:49:56,520 --> 00:49:59,439
Speaker 1: people think that liberals get sort of you know, want

974
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:02,600
Speaker 1: to police language and and want to say you can

975
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:04,520
Speaker 1: and can say this is not about that, It's about

976
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:06,479
Speaker 1: how do we begin to change the culture, because those

977
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:10,520
Speaker 1: cultures influence policies and influence ways the ways in which

978
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:12,840
Speaker 1: people are treated and they feel safe or not. I know,

979
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 1: work plates are on the street, or there may be

980
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:18,120
Speaker 1: sexual harassment policies, but I don't think they've been taken seriously.

981
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:20,680
Speaker 1: I think that when they have like diversity training or

982
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:24,840
Speaker 1: sexual harassment awareness, that most people just roll their eyes.

983
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:26,759
Speaker 1: And now I think those times have changed. But do

984
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:29,279
Speaker 1: you think that more men should be invited into the

985
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 1: conversation because I think right now, at this juncture, I

986
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:35,600
Speaker 1: think there are a lot of men who are so fearful,

987
00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:38,400
Speaker 1: and I think that some of them believe like we

988
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:41,200
Speaker 1: need to spend this time listening, but at some point

989
00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:44,960
Speaker 1: we need men to join forces with women and not

990
00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:47,160
Speaker 1: just listen. So do you feel like they've been shut

991
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:49,840
Speaker 1: out of the conversation too much? I think we have

992
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:54,840
Speaker 1: to be really careful not to foreground men's voices. I

993
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:57,080
Speaker 1: think we're talking about why it's thiss gender men's voices

994
00:50:57,320 --> 00:50:59,040
Speaker 1: in a in a in a movement that needs to

995
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:01,759
Speaker 1: be about women coming to voice and women having a

996
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:04,680
Speaker 1: space so that we can't foreground those voices. But men,

997
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:09,200
Speaker 1: we can't really topple of the patriarchy without um men

998
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:12,280
Speaker 1: being engaged in that. I think a friend Matt mcgory

999
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:14,680
Speaker 1: does so much work around Black Lives matter and around

1000
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:18,279
Speaker 1: having conversations with white people around their own racism, and

1001
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:20,799
Speaker 1: so I think men need to be having conversations with

1002
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 1: each other, and I know some incredible guys who are

1003
00:51:23,560 --> 00:51:27,160
Speaker 1: doing that work. UM list of course listening to women

1004
00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:30,600
Speaker 1: of all different backgrounds, trans you know, women with disabilities

1005
00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:34,400
Speaker 1: listening and then having conversations with other men and saying

1006
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:37,960
Speaker 1: and saying, this is no longer acceptable to talk about

1007
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:40,200
Speaker 1: women this way and to have conversations, and then what

1008
00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:43,440
Speaker 1: can we do to change policies, to change hearts and minds?

1009
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:45,920
Speaker 1: And then how can we interrogate ourselves. I think a

1010
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:49,160
Speaker 1: lot of men to what I've come to realize. This

1011
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:51,399
Speaker 1: movement has been really intense for me. I got to, um,

1012
00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:52,879
Speaker 1: I can't believe me when I talk about this, because

1013
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:54,360
Speaker 1: I'm not maybe ready to fully talk about it. But

1014
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 1: I got to confront a man that i'd had a

1015
00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:59,759
Speaker 1: sexual encounter with that the encounter was consentual, but then

1016
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:02,640
Speaker 1: something happened that wasn't consentual, and I was able to

1017
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:07,560
Speaker 1: recently recently confront him about that. And what was interesting

1018
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:10,800
Speaker 1: for me in the confrontation is that he had no idea,

1019
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:15,160
Speaker 1: He had no idea that his behavior was predatory, that

1020
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:18,320
Speaker 1: what he didn't have consent, And I think so often

1021
00:52:18,640 --> 00:52:21,520
Speaker 1: the idea of consent is something that that that that

1022
00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:25,160
Speaker 1: men aren't really clear about. And I I'm very clear

1023
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 1: that what happened was not consentual and it was not okay,

1024
00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:29,440
Speaker 1: and I was able to assert that to him. But

1025
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:33,600
Speaker 1: that's a different kind of conversation, what does consent look like? Um?

1026
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:36,440
Speaker 1: A woman I know name UM, who's who teaches um

1027
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:38,760
Speaker 1: sex and in New York and she teaches kids, She's

1028
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:41,960
Speaker 1: having conversations, you know, in middle school, really early on

1029
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:45,279
Speaker 1: about what consent is and looks like. And we have

1030
00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:48,080
Speaker 1: to be really careful about the messages we're sending to

1031
00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:51,239
Speaker 1: our young people of all genders about what consent is.

1032
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:54,439
Speaker 1: And so those kinds of conversations men should be having

1033
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:58,200
Speaker 1: with themselves, with um, with each other, and then ultimately

1034
00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:00,839
Speaker 1: with women, and then listening more and then we all

1035
00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:03,000
Speaker 1: have to be engaged in changing the culture. Is it

1036
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:05,919
Speaker 1: just too early to kind of push that, as you say,

1037
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:09,479
Speaker 1: foreground their voices. No, we should not be foregrounding voices.

1038
00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:14,160
Speaker 1: I don't. I mean, I mean I love Byron exactly,

1039
00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:17,520
Speaker 1: foregrounding so that we because it's the problem is that

1040
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:20,359
Speaker 1: for far too often we've listened to men and not

1041
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:23,080
Speaker 1: listen to women. Were at a point now when women

1042
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:27,920
Speaker 1: when women are finally being believed and something heard and heard,

1043
00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:31,360
Speaker 1: and we have to continue that we have. That doesn't

1044
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:33,759
Speaker 1: mean that we're That doesn't mean because I love man

1045
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:35,799
Speaker 1: doesn't mean we hate man. That doesn't mean that we

1046
00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:38,239
Speaker 1: want to sort of demonize men, but we have to

1047
00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:41,920
Speaker 1: foreground the voices and experiences of women. And then I

1048
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:44,720
Speaker 1: think to whether it's not just women who are experiencing

1049
00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:48,080
Speaker 1: sexual assault either. Anthony Rapp, we have to remember, came

1050
00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:52,359
Speaker 1: forward with some really important information about and well known

1051
00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:55,239
Speaker 1: actor that we all know, and um, Terry Crews and

1052
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:57,600
Speaker 1: other other men have come forward and and said that

1053
00:53:57,640 --> 00:53:59,279
Speaker 1: they too have been And I know a lot of

1054
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:03,720
Speaker 1: men and just personally who I'm experienced sexual assault. So um,

1055
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:06,000
Speaker 1: it's a conversation that we all need to have. But

1056
00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:10,279
Speaker 1: then there's there's something about power and accountability. I think

1057
00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:12,879
Speaker 1: for so long as she was just okay to do

1058
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:16,160
Speaker 1: this stuff and time's up, I feel like we should

1059
00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:20,480
Speaker 1: also just talk briefly about pay inequality. You know, A

1060
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:24,360
Speaker 1: big story this will air a couple of weeks after

1061
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:26,600
Speaker 1: this whole incident, but that got a lot of attention

1062
00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:32,000
Speaker 1: is Michelle Williams versus Mark Wahlberg. And I found that

1063
00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:36,880
Speaker 1: really upsetting but also so interesting on a multiple levels

1064
00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:40,279
Speaker 1: because I think at per usual Michelle Williams was trying

1065
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:44,080
Speaker 1: to be super accommodating and saying I'll do whatever it takes,

1066
00:54:44,239 --> 00:54:47,040
Speaker 1: I'll you know, skip my holiday, right, I'll go to

1067
00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:50,120
Speaker 1: Italy over Thanksgiving or whatever. And then she had the

1068
00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:53,040
Speaker 1: same representation as Mark Wahlberg, who got paid one point

1069
00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:55,440
Speaker 1: five million dollars. O'Brien told me earlier that there was

1070
00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:58,399
Speaker 1: some stipulation in his contract that he had approval over

1071
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:00,840
Speaker 1: the replacement actor. Blah blah blah. But the fact of

1072
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:03,640
Speaker 1: the matter is, I mean the man held it up

1073
00:55:04,080 --> 00:55:05,759
Speaker 1: so that he could get a bunch of money, and

1074
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:08,759
Speaker 1: the woman said, oh, yeah, sure, I'm happy to be accommodating,

1075
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:10,279
Speaker 1: and you know, do this whenever you want to get

1076
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:13,359
Speaker 1: paid a thousand bucks, which I think speaks to eighty

1077
00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:16,520
Speaker 1: dollars a day per deum, which which which speaks to

1078
00:55:16,719 --> 00:55:20,319
Speaker 1: I think women and are are discomfort in speaking up

1079
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:23,279
Speaker 1: and demanding things and trying to be liked and being

1080
00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:27,240
Speaker 1: the good person versus Mark Wahlberg, who of course eventually

1081
00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:30,000
Speaker 1: gave the money to the Times Up movement and to

1082
00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:33,359
Speaker 1: the Legal Defense Fund there. But I mean, why does

1083
00:55:33,400 --> 00:55:36,080
Speaker 1: this keep happening and how do you ussure in a

1084
00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:40,520
Speaker 1: major paradigm shift for that. There's so many issues there,

1085
00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:42,920
Speaker 1: and I can when I when I hear that, I

1086
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:45,799
Speaker 1: know I can relate to especially being still feeling new

1087
00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:48,799
Speaker 1: to the entertainment industry and feel like, I'm just so

1088
00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:50,880
Speaker 1: lucky to be here that you don't want to do

1089
00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:52,520
Speaker 1: anything to piss people. And I don't want to do

1090
00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:54,799
Speaker 1: anything to piss anybody off. I'm like, what do you need?

1091
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:58,880
Speaker 1: And always trying to arrive and and be easy to

1092
00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:02,719
Speaker 1: work with and in and agreeable and never difficult. And

1093
00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:06,720
Speaker 1: so that's something I really really deeply relate to. Gosh,

1094
00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:08,400
Speaker 1: I think there's so many issues. There's so much that

1095
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:10,840
Speaker 1: we probably don't even know about. In terms of the

1096
00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:13,759
Speaker 1: contract negotiations, I'm excited that the money is going to

1097
00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:17,600
Speaker 1: Time's up. Um, I'm excited that that's happening. UM. I

1098
00:56:17,600 --> 00:56:21,040
Speaker 1: think Michelle. Michelle Williams is a brilliant, brilliant artist. Her

1099
00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:24,200
Speaker 1: body of work is so compelling. Her statement around this

1100
00:56:24,280 --> 00:56:29,600
Speaker 1: is has been absolutely just magnanimous and inspiring. I I

1101
00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:32,280
Speaker 1: just love I love her. I don't know her personally,

1102
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:34,359
Speaker 1: but I love the way that she's gone about all this.

1103
00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:36,960
Speaker 1: But part of this is I think women starting to

1104
00:56:37,040 --> 00:56:41,440
Speaker 1: become accustomed to owning some power, you know, and and

1105
00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:45,080
Speaker 1: not being so worried and being able to demand things

1106
00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:47,480
Speaker 1: and not be afraid what that says when it comes

1107
00:56:47,480 --> 00:56:49,399
Speaker 1: to and I think I think it's Susie Orman who

1108
00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:52,120
Speaker 1: said that we need to talk about money more in general,

1109
00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:55,040
Speaker 1: so that we are having conversations how much are you making?

1110
00:56:55,520 --> 00:56:58,279
Speaker 1: You know, so that we should be openly having conversations

1111
00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:01,880
Speaker 1: about our transparency are people getting? And then so what

1112
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:04,399
Speaker 1: should I be asking for? So so that's part of it.

1113
00:57:04,440 --> 00:57:07,680
Speaker 1: But there's something I really get that desire to be

1114
00:57:07,719 --> 00:57:10,200
Speaker 1: like what do you need? You know they were reshooting

1115
00:57:10,239 --> 00:57:13,239
Speaker 1: the film because of um the actor who they needed

1116
00:57:13,239 --> 00:57:17,320
Speaker 1: and needed to I know, but I don't. I don't

1117
00:57:17,320 --> 00:57:20,600
Speaker 1: know for every reason. But like, so I get where

1118
00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:23,080
Speaker 1: Michelle was coming from. Let me do whatever I can't.

1119
00:57:23,120 --> 00:57:25,720
Speaker 1: I get it. I really laudatory in a way. On

1120
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:29,400
Speaker 1: the other hand, it's like, why should we be pleasers?

1121
00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:31,680
Speaker 1: And why should we be so helpful? Or maybe the

1122
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:33,720
Speaker 1: men should be more helpful. Yeah, I was going to say,

1123
00:57:33,920 --> 00:57:36,000
Speaker 1: is that a good thing? A bad thing? It's so confusing.

1124
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:39,440
Speaker 1: Oprah talked about how often talks about her how her

1125
00:57:39,480 --> 00:57:42,280
Speaker 1: life changed when she let go of her disease to

1126
00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:46,439
Speaker 1: please and I'm I'm still learning that, um, but really

1127
00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:50,240
Speaker 1: choosing them, Burnee Brown says her boundary mantras choose discomfort

1128
00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:53,840
Speaker 1: over resentment. So we're setting boundaries and and um not

1129
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:57,080
Speaker 1: being in a space of like constantly wanting to please,

1130
00:57:57,200 --> 00:57:59,640
Speaker 1: but so that we can assert ourselves and feel and

1131
00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:03,440
Speaker 1: to stand our value. I don't I don't know Michelle personally.

1132
00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:05,560
Speaker 1: I think she I don't know her, but I think

1133
00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:08,240
Speaker 1: she knows her value with I think four Oscar nominations

1134
00:58:08,240 --> 00:58:11,080
Speaker 1: in this body of work. But um, she's just not

1135
00:58:11,160 --> 00:58:18,720
Speaker 1: a jerk anyway. In closing, Okay, no, but you know

1136
00:58:18,760 --> 00:58:21,280
Speaker 1: what I mean, she's like, I mean, she's a match. Yeah,

1137
00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:24,920
Speaker 1: she's a men, she's an any who. Um, are there

1138
00:58:24,920 --> 00:58:26,920
Speaker 1: other projects you're working on that you can talk about?

1139
00:58:27,120 --> 00:58:30,200
Speaker 1: Freak show right, Freak shows out now, Freak shows in

1140
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:34,200
Speaker 1: theaters and on demand. It's a beautiful UM movie set

1141
00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:37,320
Speaker 1: in high school about a young kid named Billy Bloom

1142
00:58:37,360 --> 00:58:39,720
Speaker 1: who is kind of gender non binary, likes to dress

1143
00:58:39,760 --> 00:58:43,480
Speaker 1: and fantastic costumes at school and gets bullied and it

1144
00:58:43,600 --> 00:58:46,840
Speaker 1: ends up running for homecoming queen UM and it's a

1145
00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:48,520
Speaker 1: really beautiful story. I have a teeny tiny party in

1146
00:58:48,520 --> 00:58:52,560
Speaker 1: your Trudy Styler directs and Bett Midler has a wonderful

1147
00:58:52,680 --> 00:58:54,560
Speaker 1: role in it's so folks can um I think in

1148
00:58:54,680 --> 00:58:56,720
Speaker 1: l a New York c freak show now or on demand.

1149
00:58:56,960 --> 00:58:59,440
Speaker 1: It's you can just get it anywhere. It's fantastic. I

1150
00:58:59,480 --> 00:59:05,560
Speaker 1: love that movie. Um and your model for Oh my God,

1151
00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:09,120
Speaker 1: that's crazy. Beyonce chose me to be one of the

1152
00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:12,800
Speaker 1: faces of her autumn winter campaign for Ivy Park. The

1153
00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:15,240
Speaker 1: posters are still in top shops all over the world.

1154
00:59:15,360 --> 00:59:17,320
Speaker 1: I still get it's an active where line, it's an

1155
00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:19,920
Speaker 1: active where. It's her at leisure line. It's amazing. I

1156
00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:22,080
Speaker 1: was an Ivy Park fan even before I was modeling

1157
00:59:22,120 --> 00:59:25,800
Speaker 1: for it. Thank you, Beyonce. That's you. Are you and

1158
00:59:25,880 --> 00:59:28,200
Speaker 1: fiance like this? I just did the thing where your

1159
00:59:28,200 --> 00:59:31,120
Speaker 1: fingers are together like you're super tight. No, I've met

1160
00:59:31,120 --> 00:59:33,520
Speaker 1: Beyonce once. She was about to give birth when we

1161
00:59:33,600 --> 00:59:36,920
Speaker 1: shot the ad campaign, so I've only met her once.

1162
00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:40,240
Speaker 1: We're not tight like that. Um. You know, you've got

1163
00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:42,160
Speaker 1: to be a lot more Hollywood. You gotta say we're very,

1164
00:59:42,200 --> 00:59:46,520
Speaker 1: very close. You know. I don't do that whole thing

1165
00:59:46,560 --> 00:59:48,680
Speaker 1: of like, should I be more Hollywood. I'm just gonna

1166
00:59:48,720 --> 00:59:54,760
Speaker 1: be Lavernet. It's actually very refreshing. But she she's so

1167
00:59:54,920 --> 00:59:56,960
Speaker 1: I mean I've interviewed her a couple of times. I

1168
00:59:57,000 --> 00:59:59,360
Speaker 1: haven't seen her for years, but in the early days

1169
00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:01,720
Speaker 1: of Destiny's Child and then when she started on her

1170
01:00:01,720 --> 01:00:04,960
Speaker 1: solo career, I had the pleasure of interviewing her and

1171
01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:07,040
Speaker 1: I just I just adore her. I think she is

1172
01:00:07,120 --> 01:00:10,560
Speaker 1: so great and we're so talented. It's ridiculously be she

1173
01:00:10,720 --> 01:00:13,600
Speaker 1: is still the queen of us all. I have a

1174
01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:15,840
Speaker 1: few queens, and Beyonce is one so and I remain

1175
01:00:15,920 --> 01:00:19,200
Speaker 1: a genormous fan. Who's your other queen? Um? Oh my god,

1176
01:00:19,200 --> 01:00:25,080
Speaker 1: I have many queens, Oprah, Um, Leon, Team Price, Violet Davis. Um.

1177
01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:27,880
Speaker 1: When you look ahead at this year, you know what

1178
01:00:27,880 --> 01:00:29,840
Speaker 1: what a What are your hopes and dreams? It was

1179
01:00:29,840 --> 01:00:32,680
Speaker 1: funny you were saying you wanted that role and a

1180
01:00:32,760 --> 01:00:35,440
Speaker 1: continuing role that one year, and then Orange is a

1181
01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:39,840
Speaker 1: New Black popped up? What are your goals? I want

1182
01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:42,240
Speaker 1: to get better at being an artist and being an actress.

1183
01:00:42,240 --> 01:00:44,280
Speaker 1: I got to work on I'm Gonna be in the

1184
01:00:44,320 --> 01:00:47,120
Speaker 1: next season of Orange, and they wrote some really beautiful

1185
01:00:47,240 --> 01:00:50,040
Speaker 1: material for me and I I want to get better

1186
01:00:50,040 --> 01:00:51,920
Speaker 1: at what I do. I think being an actor is

1187
01:00:52,760 --> 01:00:55,960
Speaker 1: very difficult in doing it well. Um it's difficult, but

1188
01:00:56,000 --> 01:00:58,880
Speaker 1: it's also a lifelong pursuit and something that you can

1189
01:00:59,000 --> 01:01:00,920
Speaker 1: get better, get older, and get better at. So I

1190
01:01:00,920 --> 01:01:02,840
Speaker 1: want to continue to expand all the notes. New show

1191
01:01:02,880 --> 01:01:05,760
Speaker 1: called Glad Masters that's coming out on Lifetime. It's a

1192
01:01:05,960 --> 01:01:10,160
Speaker 1: it's a competition reality show from makeup artist m Kim Kardashian.

1193
01:01:10,160 --> 01:01:11,760
Speaker 1: West is one of the executive who's I'm a co

1194
01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:14,280
Speaker 1: executive producer as well, and I'm also a host and judge,

1195
01:01:14,520 --> 01:01:17,160
Speaker 1: and we're looking for the next big breakout star in

1196
01:01:17,200 --> 01:01:20,880
Speaker 1: the beauty industry. It's it's on Lifetimes premering February. I'm

1197
01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:22,320
Speaker 1: so proud of it. I've seen a lot of the

1198
01:01:22,360 --> 01:01:25,520
Speaker 1: episodes and the contestants are incredible. You really understand that

1199
01:01:25,600 --> 01:01:27,919
Speaker 1: makeup isn't just I'm not wearing makeup today, Thank God.

1200
01:01:27,960 --> 01:01:30,600
Speaker 1: I love having my makeup three days. But the makeup

1201
01:01:30,720 --> 01:01:33,160
Speaker 1: is not just about looking pretty. That it's an art,

1202
01:01:33,360 --> 01:01:36,200
Speaker 1: and these makeup artists we have on the show really

1203
01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:38,440
Speaker 1: show you that. And the challenges that we give them, um,

1204
01:01:38,560 --> 01:01:40,640
Speaker 1: you illustrate that. And it's fun. We had so much fun.

1205
01:01:40,840 --> 01:01:43,439
Speaker 1: So you're not only doing all your acting stuff, You're

1206
01:01:43,520 --> 01:01:48,000
Speaker 1: like turning into a mogul of I'm trying to do

1207
01:01:48,120 --> 01:01:50,240
Speaker 1: continue to do what I love and do, and I

1208
01:01:50,320 --> 01:01:52,360
Speaker 1: love a lot of different things, and so I'm trying

1209
01:01:52,400 --> 01:01:55,560
Speaker 1: to sort of go with the passion and being a

1210
01:01:55,640 --> 01:02:00,280
Speaker 1: space of of joy and multidimensionality. I'm not just one thing,

1211
01:02:00,640 --> 01:02:03,000
Speaker 1: and so I'm getting to explore all of you, these

1212
01:02:03,280 --> 01:02:06,720
Speaker 1: different sides of myself and showing the world that they

1213
01:02:06,720 --> 01:02:09,000
Speaker 1: can do that as well. I think that's great. Well,

1214
01:02:09,040 --> 01:02:13,120
Speaker 1: I just you know, I adore you. So I'm so

1215
01:02:13,200 --> 01:02:16,440
Speaker 1: happy that you came by on a Sunday no Less

1216
01:02:16,960 --> 01:02:21,280
Speaker 1: to visit with us. This has been so much fun.

1217
01:02:21,720 --> 01:02:23,280
Speaker 1: I can't wait to see how you edit this because

1218
01:02:23,400 --> 01:02:28,959
Speaker 1: we talked a lot. A big thank you this week

1219
01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:32,120
Speaker 1: to the Invisible Studios in l A for today's recording,

1220
01:02:32,240 --> 01:02:35,640
Speaker 1: and our usual thanks to the lovely and talented Gianna

1221
01:02:35,680 --> 01:02:38,960
Speaker 1: Palmer for producing the show. We love Gianna, and we

1222
01:02:39,040 --> 01:02:41,720
Speaker 1: love Jared O'Connell for mixing it. Oh gosh, I don't

1223
01:02:41,720 --> 01:02:44,360
Speaker 1: want to leave anyone out. We love Nora Richie, our

1224
01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:49,080
Speaker 1: assistant producer, and Alison Bresnik on social media, Emily Bena

1225
01:02:49,200 --> 01:02:52,240
Speaker 1: over at Katie Currect Media, we love you too, and

1226
01:02:52,440 --> 01:02:55,640
Speaker 1: beth My assistant. I can't forget her. We love her

1227
01:02:55,960 --> 01:02:58,560
Speaker 1: a lot because she puts up with me every day.

1228
01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:02,000
Speaker 1: Beth's a wonder woman in her own right. Mark Phillips

1229
01:03:02,040 --> 01:03:04,280
Speaker 1: wrote our theme music. I would say I love you, Mark,

1230
01:03:04,320 --> 01:03:06,480
Speaker 1: but I don't even know you. And Brian and I

1231
01:03:06,560 --> 01:03:09,640
Speaker 1: are the show's executive producers. Talk to you next week

1232
01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:31,840
Speaker 1: and thanks so much for listening everyone Stitcher now in

1233
01:03:31,880 --> 01:03:35,520
Speaker 1: certain podcasts moving forward, Lavern, Brian and I decided we're

1234
01:03:35,520 --> 01:03:37,960
Speaker 1: going to pick out a song that we think best

1235
01:03:38,080 --> 01:03:41,960
Speaker 1: exemplifies the spirit of our guests. So hit it, guys.

1236
01:03:48,040 --> 01:03:50,040
Speaker 1: Come on, Brian, this is when you're going to drop

1237
01:03:50,080 --> 01:03:52,360
Speaker 1: it like it's hot. Yeah. I don't think anyone wants

1238
01:03:52,360 --> 01:03:57,600
Speaker 1: to hear that. Yeah, we feel like hot stuff is

1239
01:03:57,640 --> 01:04:01,920
Speaker 1: appropriate for you, Laverne, because you were on fire an

1240
01:04:01,920 --> 01:04:07,720
Speaker 1: English royal. We by the way, Oh my god, Hello,

1241
01:04:07,840 --> 01:04:11,640
Speaker 1: Dead Beats. It's Gabby. Gabby Done, host of Bad with Money.

1242
01:04:11,720 --> 01:04:13,680
Speaker 1: I had the Bad with Money book come out in January.

1243
01:04:13,800 --> 01:04:16,680
Speaker 1: I'm super stoked for season four. This season, we're going

1244
01:04:16,720 --> 01:04:19,440
Speaker 1: back to our roots and I'm having long conversations with

1245
01:04:19,640 --> 01:04:22,840
Speaker 1: amazing people and getting the big picture about money and

1246
01:04:22,920 --> 01:04:27,960
Speaker 1: the economy. Do you like intersectional queer, social justice based

1247
01:04:28,040 --> 01:04:31,439
Speaker 1: money podcasts. This is the only one, so get into it.

1248
01:04:31,600 --> 01:04:34,160
Speaker 1: Did you earn it? You deserve to be like a

1249
01:04:34,200 --> 01:04:37,920
Speaker 1: billionaire when somebody who's working as a janitor or working

1250
01:04:37,920 --> 01:04:41,520
Speaker 1: in Walmart, or teacher or a teacher, yeah certainly, or

1251
01:04:41,560 --> 01:04:44,040
Speaker 1: a teacher who may be working just as many hours

1252
01:04:44,040 --> 01:04:46,880
Speaker 1: as you, maybe just as smart as you like, does

1253
01:04:46,920 --> 01:04:49,600
Speaker 1: that make it okay that you have so much? I

1254
01:04:49,640 --> 01:04:52,080
Speaker 1: get paid once a month, so my my check accounts huge.

1255
01:04:52,200 --> 01:04:54,240
Speaker 1: It's like a tidal wave comes in and then on

1256
01:04:54,240 --> 01:04:58,000
Speaker 1: the second it's empty again. Oh my god, speaking my language.

1257
01:04:58,320 --> 01:05:01,080
Speaker 1: Bad with Money is back now for season four. Listen

1258
01:05:01,120 --> 01:05:03,880
Speaker 1: and stitch your Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

1259
01:05:05,480 --> 01:05:05,520
Speaker 1: M