WEBVTT - The Defense 0:00:00.840 --> 0:00:05.399 Before we begin, Please be aware this episode contains discussions 0:00:05.440 --> 0:00:09.920 around infant deaths and other difficult topics. Please take care 0:00:10.039 --> 0:00:16.560 while listening. The movement of the court can feel like theater. 0:00:17.400 --> 0:00:20.480 Everyone a member of a caste who knows their roles. 0:00:21.720 --> 0:00:25.919 Stand when the judge comes in, speak from the witness box, 0:00:26.600 --> 0:00:31.080 swear to tell the truth. The prosecution is bound to 0:00:31.120 --> 0:00:34.560 share their evidence with the defense, and the defense team 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:38.280 prepares ahead of time how best to defend their clients. 0:00:39.280 --> 0:00:42.800 Reporters who cover court for a living know this rhythm 0:00:42.880 --> 0:00:43.760 in their bones. 0:00:44.320 --> 0:00:47.960 I name every day a couple of other people there 0:00:48.000 --> 0:00:48.560 every day. 0:00:49.200 --> 0:00:52.800 Kim Pilling, a reporter with the Press Association in the UK, 0:00:53.360 --> 0:00:56.160 has been a news reporter for more than three decades, 0:00:56.800 --> 0:01:00.360 twenty years as a court reporter and ten months months 0:01:00.400 --> 0:01:06.640 of those covering the Lucy let Be case every single day, so. 0:01:06.720 --> 0:01:10.080 We knew it was going to be a very lengthy trial, 0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:15.400 full of complexities and lots of complex medical evidence surrounding that. 0:01:15.520 --> 0:01:19.760 An effect was seventeen trials in one Really each day 0:01:19.880 --> 0:01:22.200 we were full on, so to speak. There was a 0:01:22.200 --> 0:01:24.959 lot of information being put out each day. 0:01:25.200 --> 0:01:27.040 It was done at a very brisk pace. 0:01:27.880 --> 0:01:32.080 I remember sitting through days and days of medical testimony. 0:01:32.160 --> 0:01:35.600 During my own trial, it was hard for me to follow, 0:01:35.680 --> 0:01:38.240 and I can't imagine what it was like for the jury. 0:01:39.160 --> 0:01:43.920 But my life depended upon people understanding this evidence. 0:01:45.000 --> 0:01:49.760 The prosecution case closes, defense case starts, and she's cool 0:01:49.960 --> 0:01:50.760 to give evidence. 0:01:53.360 --> 0:01:56.840 One spring day in twenty twenty three, after the Crown 0:01:57.080 --> 0:02:00.320 ended its case, the doors of the court were opened 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:02.320 for the first time that morning. 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:05.680 When we came into court, she was already sat down. 0:02:06.360 --> 0:02:10.520 For months. All anyone saw of Lucy let Be was 0:02:10.560 --> 0:02:13.920 from what the Brits call the doc It's essentially a 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:17.519 glassed in box for prisoners to sit in during their trial. 0:02:18.520 --> 0:02:21.480 From the public gallery, you see Lucy from the side, 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:24.360 facing the judge, who sits on his dais at the 0:02:24.360 --> 0:02:28.960 front of the courtroom. But on this May morning, Lucy 0:02:29.120 --> 0:02:32.720 was waiting for everyone to arrive from a different vantage 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:36.720 point at the front of the court, facing out from 0:02:36.720 --> 0:02:39.760 the witness box, before any. 0:02:39.560 --> 0:02:41.480 Of the lawyers came into the room, any of the 0:02:41.520 --> 0:02:42.960 families came into the room. 0:02:43.360 --> 0:02:46.280 Since her arrest and through what was to be one 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:50.679 of Britain's longest trials in history, Lucy let Bee had 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:55.880 lost the power to tell her own story. Now, sitting 0:02:55.919 --> 0:03:00.720 there in the witness box, Lucy was about to try 0:03:01.400 --> 0:03:04.720 to get that power back. Everyone knew it would be 0:03:04.720 --> 0:03:11.720 a gamble. I'm Amanda Knox and from Vespucci and iHeart Podcasts. 0:03:12.160 --> 0:03:17.000 This is doubt the Case of Lucy. Let be Episode five. 0:03:17.800 --> 0:03:18.440 The Defense. 0:03:30.840 --> 0:03:34.240 It is not a given that a defendant will testify 0:03:34.400 --> 0:03:38.840 in their own trial. It's a tricky decision, and in England, 0:03:39.160 --> 0:03:43.400 unlike in America, a failure to testify can actually be 0:03:43.520 --> 0:03:48.680 held against a defendant. In my own trial, my lawyers 0:03:48.680 --> 0:03:52.040 and I both wanted me to testify because we understood 0:03:52.080 --> 0:03:56.560 that the prosecution's case relied so heavily on character assassination, 0:03:57.280 --> 0:03:59.840 and the best antidote to that was for the jury 0:03:59.840 --> 0:04:04.480 to see the real me. But there's a huge risk 0:04:04.680 --> 0:04:09.680 in testifying. It's perfectly normal to get details wrong or 0:04:09.800 --> 0:04:13.400 confuse the order of events when recalling something that happened 0:04:13.440 --> 0:04:17.680 a long time ago. But every factual mistake in your 0:04:17.760 --> 0:04:22.120 testimony is an opportunity for the prosecution to call you 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:26.640 a liar. And if you say I don't remember, as 0:04:26.720 --> 0:04:31.320 my lawyers recommended I do, that can look evasive because 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:35.400 people expect you to remember everything, and when it came 0:04:35.480 --> 0:04:41.080 to Lucy's cross examination, she often couldn't remember the details 0:04:41.600 --> 0:04:43.080 and said so on the record. 0:04:43.400 --> 0:04:46.599 The defendants don't always give evidences. You don't have to 0:04:46.600 --> 0:04:47.200 give evidence. 0:04:47.920 --> 0:04:50.880 In an English courtroom, it's common for a witness that 0:04:51.000 --> 0:04:53.920 is also a prisoner to be escorted from the dock 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:55.080 to the witness stand. 0:04:55.400 --> 0:04:58.159 They walk across the courtroom in front of the public 0:04:58.160 --> 0:05:00.520 gallery where I'm shat, and then you go across the 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:05.680 witness box, sit down, face the jury, prison guard behind you. 0:05:07.240 --> 0:05:10.480 But for the two weeks Lucy testified in her own defense, 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:15.159 each morning she would be there ready sitting in the 0:05:15.200 --> 0:05:18.560 witness box before anyone else came into the courtroom. 0:05:18.880 --> 0:05:24.120 I think she preferred to be sat in place before 0:05:24.160 --> 0:05:27.720 the jury came in, so we didn't have this performance 0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:31.279 of her being led across each each day from the 0:05:31.360 --> 0:05:33.040 dock to the witness box. 0:05:39.200 --> 0:05:42.400 This let be, would you give the court your full name? 0:05:42.520 --> 0:05:42.880 Please? 0:05:43.480 --> 0:05:45.440 Yes, Lucy let Be? 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:48.440 And what's your date of birth? Miss let Be? 0:05:48.920 --> 0:05:51.400 Fourth of January nineteen ninety. 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:55.760 There are no recordings in a UK court, so we've 0:05:55.760 --> 0:05:58.440 had actors read from the trial transcripts. 0:05:59.120 --> 0:06:01.760 When was it that you first knew you wanted to 0:06:01.760 --> 0:06:02.279 be a nurse. 0:06:03.279 --> 0:06:07.200 The first five days Lucy spent answering questions from her 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:08.040 defense lawyer. 0:06:08.720 --> 0:06:12.560 I've always wanted to work with children, but it was 0:06:12.720 --> 0:06:15.760 towards the end of secondary school that I thought I 0:06:15.800 --> 0:06:19.560 wanted to do nursing, and then picked a level subjects 0:06:19.600 --> 0:06:21.760 that would best support that career. 0:06:22.640 --> 0:06:26.880 After months of evidence being presented against her, it was 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:30.200 finally Lucy's turn to answer for herself. 0:06:31.320 --> 0:06:35.880 Over the period of twenty fifteen to twenty sixteen, we 0:06:36.000 --> 0:06:38.480 know you were looking at a number of babies in 0:06:38.560 --> 0:06:43.520 this indictment, and you understand that, don't you. Yes, there's 0:06:44.000 --> 0:06:47.560 seventeen of them. Yes, But could you put a figure 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:50.160 on the number of babies you cared for over that 0:06:50.279 --> 0:06:51.359 twelve month period? 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:55.119 Probably hundreds hundreds? Yes? 0:06:55.400 --> 0:06:56.640 And did you care for them? 0:06:56.920 --> 0:06:57.200 Yes? 0:06:57.440 --> 0:06:59.600 Did you ever do anything that was meant to hurt 0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:00.000 any of them? 0:07:00.600 --> 0:07:00.680 No? 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:04.640 I only ever did my best to care for them. 0:07:05.120 --> 0:07:08.520 Did you ever want to hurt any baby you looked after? 0:07:09.520 --> 0:07:14.840 No, that's completely against everything that being a nurse is. 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:24.520 I'm there to help and to care, not to harm. 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:29.440 Everything about Lucy let Be was scrutinized during her time 0:07:29.520 --> 0:07:33.040 on the stand. From what she wore, she was. 0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:39.720 So dark blue black, you know, she quite no bright colors. 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:41.680 To how she spoke, she was. 0:07:41.760 --> 0:07:47.200 Very directave clear answers, didn't deviate from the question, but 0:07:47.240 --> 0:07:49.560 again not particularly expressive. 0:07:49.960 --> 0:07:52.040 And of course how she looked. 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:53.840 I mean, if you didn't know she was a nurse, 0:07:53.880 --> 0:07:56.880 you might think she was a librarian, something like that. 0:07:57.040 --> 0:08:01.000 You know, quite mousey. Maybe that's been a kid. 0:08:01.840 --> 0:08:06.840 This intense gaze on your every move and utterance is exhausting. 0:08:07.680 --> 0:08:10.120 When it came to the coverage of my trial, I 0:08:10.240 --> 0:08:14.000 was in an unwinnable situation. If I smiled at my 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:17.320 family in the courtroom, a small gesture to let them 0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:21.160 know I was surviving, I was a media whore hungry 0:08:21.200 --> 0:08:25.400 for the spotlight. If I cried, they were crocodile tears 0:08:25.400 --> 0:08:31.960 and I was being manipulative. It was soul destroying. In 0:08:32.000 --> 0:08:35.240 September of twenty twenty four, Lucy let Be got a 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:38.439 new lawyer. His name is Mark McDonald. 0:08:40.360 --> 0:08:42.559 So, I mean, it all initially started when the family 0:08:42.559 --> 0:08:44.840 contacted me and asked me to go and see Lucy. 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:48.840 It's almost as though Mark McDonald's career was leading him 0:08:48.880 --> 0:08:49.559 to this case. 0:08:50.240 --> 0:08:53.040 I think this is a mischaracter justice. Before I became 0:08:53.080 --> 0:08:56.600 a barrister, actually in the operating theater, of the operating 0:08:56.679 --> 0:09:01.200 room as they called it in the US, for fourteen years, 0:09:01.320 --> 0:09:04.160 I was an assistant to the anetheist and the surgeon. 0:09:05.200 --> 0:09:08.559 I've worked in the INTERP two K unit, I've worked 0:09:08.600 --> 0:09:12.520 in A and E. I've spent many years working and 0:09:12.600 --> 0:09:17.599 embedded in the hospital in former situations as a doctor's assistant, 0:09:18.040 --> 0:09:22.040 I carried the crash bleep when I went to cardiac arrest. 0:09:22.160 --> 0:09:25.040 On the ward, I could take part an anesthetic machine 0:09:25.320 --> 0:09:28.400 and ventilators and put them back together again. I knew 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:31.760 all the drugs and assistants. I intubated, I put IV 0:09:31.960 --> 0:09:35.240 lines in, I put arterial lines in, netlines in. I 0:09:35.280 --> 0:09:37.680 had a wealth of knowledge. And then I came to 0:09:37.720 --> 0:09:41.000 the bar and I qualified through night. 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:44.880 School at the age of thirty four. Mark became a lawyer. 0:09:45.640 --> 0:09:49.079 Today he has taken on Lucy's case and is working 0:09:49.160 --> 0:09:49.840 pro bono. 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:52.720 You know, from the moment she was arrested, it became 0:09:52.760 --> 0:09:55.800 a story in the mainstream media, on the front page 0:09:55.840 --> 0:10:00.320 of all the newspapers and documentaries and news items. She 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:04.120 was described as evil as you described as the worst 0:10:04.200 --> 0:10:09.079 person in the country. It became about dismantling her as 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:12.520 an individual, and I don't want to be part of 0:10:12.559 --> 0:10:16.000 that narrative. I want to focus on what convicted her 0:10:16.120 --> 0:10:17.720 and ow do ee and do that conviction. 0:10:19.120 --> 0:10:22.400 Mark says to do that, he has employed a multi 0:10:22.400 --> 0:10:23.439 pronged approach. 0:10:24.280 --> 0:10:27.120 The first element is the most important element. You don't 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:30.040 undo a conviction unless you have the legal arguments and 0:10:30.120 --> 0:10:31.760 the expertise to be able to do so. 0:10:36.400 --> 0:10:40.520 Going through Lucy's testimony, it's clear that was something Lucy's 0:10:40.559 --> 0:10:45.360 trial lawyer Ben Myers had attempted to do. For example, 0:10:45.440 --> 0:10:47.960 the jury had heard that Lucy was on duty for 0:10:48.080 --> 0:10:52.400 every suspicious death and collapse. Myers tried to show that 0:10:52.480 --> 0:10:54.040 she was not alone. 0:10:54.720 --> 0:10:58.800 What was the atmosphere like concerning Baby N as that 0:10:58.920 --> 0:11:03.640 afternoon went on, We see there were these multiple attempts 0:11:03.679 --> 0:11:04.520 at indubation. 0:11:05.559 --> 0:11:11.360 It was becoming increasingly chaotic. More and more staff were 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:14.720 coming to try and assist. There was a sense of 0:11:14.800 --> 0:11:18.720 panic around the unit. I think that we weren't sure 0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:20.839 how we were going to manage Baby n. 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:24.920 Do you remember how many people were present as the 0:11:24.960 --> 0:11:28.200 afternoon went on, how many people gathered. 0:11:28.760 --> 0:11:32.520 There were loads of people I would say ten to fifteen. 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:38.120 Were you his designated nurse during this Yes? Were you 0:11:38.240 --> 0:11:41.800 the only person caring for him at any point? 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:47.720 No baby n needed such care that he always had 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:51.360 at least two members of staff with him. I remember 0:11:51.840 --> 0:11:55.680 nurse being helping a lot, and the doctors were near 0:11:55.840 --> 0:11:57.319 enough in the room the whole time. 0:11:59.000 --> 0:12:02.959 Mark won't cred size Lucy's original lawyer, but he has 0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:06.079 no trouble pointing out what he says is a lack 0:12:06.200 --> 0:12:08.359 of evidence against his client. 0:12:08.600 --> 0:12:11.520 No direct evidence of Lucy's doing anything wrong. In fact 0:12:11.600 --> 0:12:15.400 the opposite. So no witnesses, no forensic evidence. Don't see 0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:18.760 see TV you know, no lesson abted drunks that have 0:12:18.760 --> 0:12:21.640 gone missing, In fact the opposite. She was highly regarded 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:25.040 and seen by many on the unit as an excellent nurse. 0:12:26.400 --> 0:12:30.680 But what about those damning post it notes, the self 0:12:30.760 --> 0:12:34.920 incriminating notes found under Lucy's bed during the police investigation. 0:12:35.960 --> 0:12:38.839 I am an awful person, you write down at the 0:12:38.880 --> 0:12:40.320 top right hand corner, don't you? 0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:40.720 Yes? 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:42.240 And that's true, isn't it. 0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:46.440 No, That's how I felt at the time. I was 0:12:46.480 --> 0:12:49.120 not good enough and I must be an awful person. 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:54.199 The Crown used those notes and her social media posts 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:56.960 to try and paint a picture of a woman who 0:12:57.000 --> 0:12:58.199 would hurt babies. 0:12:59.080 --> 0:13:01.160 We don't need to go back through the social media 0:13:01.200 --> 0:13:03.360 stuff to show you out on the rasp with your friends, 0:13:03.360 --> 0:13:06.320 do we No, you are having a good time, weren't you. 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:10.960 Yes? There were times in those years that I did 0:13:11.040 --> 0:13:12.040 have good times. 0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:14.760 Yes, drinking fizz, going to the races. 0:13:15.040 --> 0:13:15.319 Yes. 0:13:15.720 --> 0:13:17.040 Yes, you felt like. 0:13:17.040 --> 0:13:19.680 This because you knew that you had killed and grievously 0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:22.760 injured these children. No, and that's the truth, isn't it. 0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:24.360 No, it's not the truth. 0:13:25.200 --> 0:13:26.280 You are a murderer. 0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:27.440 No, I am not. 0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:29.559 You have murdered many children. 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:33.439 I've never murdered a child or harmed any of them. 0:13:34.160 --> 0:13:35.680 I have nothing further. Thank you. 0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:43.240 Lucy's notes made for sensational headlines, but those who have 0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:46.840 come to Lucy's defense say the police and the media 0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:52.320 and ultimately the jury have read them all wrong. Mark 0:13:52.400 --> 0:13:56.560 says Lucy had written these notes before she had been arrested, 0:13:57.160 --> 0:14:00.400 but had realized she was being blamed for the deaths 0:14:00.440 --> 0:14:01.040 on the unit. 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:06.120 Why had you written not good enough and underlined it? 0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:10.760 I think that's the overwhelming thought and feeling that I 0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:15.479 had about myself at that point that I wasn't. 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:19.000 Good enough and why did you think you weren't. 0:14:18.679 --> 0:14:21.640 Good enough because of the way people have made me feel? 0:14:22.280 --> 0:14:25.760 Had you actually done anything wrong to hurt any baby? 0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:32.200 No, and emotionally, she's writing this stuff down, as I say, 0:14:32.360 --> 0:14:34.760 with other stuff, saying that she hadn't done anything wrong, 0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:38.440 But the prosecution presented this to the Jewy as a confession, 0:14:38.840 --> 0:14:41.119 and it was left to the Jewy as a confession. 0:14:44.280 --> 0:14:47.640 Lucy wasn't the only nurse who leaned on this practice 0:14:47.640 --> 0:14:50.880 to help them cope with how hard their job really was. 0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:52.040 I do that too. 0:14:54.080 --> 0:14:57.240 This is a nurse named Jenny Harris. She's been a 0:14:57.320 --> 0:14:59.920 new Needdle nurse for eighteen years. 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:04.200 So like things like saying that she did the confession 0:15:04.280 --> 0:15:08.560 on the post it note. I've been to therapy, I've 0:15:08.760 --> 0:15:13.000 been in CBT, I've had counselors and they've told me 0:15:13.840 --> 0:15:16.400 to write things down on what I'm thinking and what 0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:19.640 I'm feeling, but it doesn't mean it's right. So like, 0:15:19.800 --> 0:15:22.600 for example, I had a core belief that I was 0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:25.880 worthless and I was a bad person. There was no 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:28.360 evidence that I was a bad person. That's what I've 0:15:28.400 --> 0:15:33.640 learned through my therapy. But I was to write that down, 0:15:33.800 --> 0:15:37.160 and I would write down I'm worthless, I'm a bad person, 0:15:38.320 --> 0:15:39.560 but I'm not a bad person. 0:15:40.240 --> 0:15:41.520 But just because I. 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:45.720 Wrote it down doesn't mean it's true. But as soon 0:15:45.760 --> 0:15:47.920 as I heard that she'd written these post it notes, 0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:49.800 I was like, well, I've done that. 0:15:50.280 --> 0:15:55.560 Well the prosecution considered these notes a confession. Mark McDonald says, 0:15:55.600 --> 0:15:59.600 one of UK's leading experts on false confessions, does not 0:15:59.720 --> 0:16:00.760 see it that way. 0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:04.760 Thank you for everything, and he writes a very detailed 0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:08.400 report says this is not a confession. It should never 0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:11.920 have been treated as a confession. In fact, should never 0:16:12.040 --> 0:16:14.240 be put before the jewelry. And we've got to remember 0:16:15.080 --> 0:16:17.800 again that was left to the Jewey as a confession, 0:16:18.840 --> 0:16:23.080 and no expert evidence before the jewelry to counter that. 0:16:23.720 --> 0:16:26.520 It was part of and a strong part of the 0:16:26.600 --> 0:16:27.640 public narrative. 0:16:29.280 --> 0:16:32.200 Over the course of those twenty five weeks the Crown 0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:36.880 put on their case, the jury heard from expert after expert, 0:16:37.840 --> 0:16:41.680 hundreds of hours of testimony from people who all believed 0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:45.280 Lucy had killed these babies. But when it came time 0:16:45.320 --> 0:16:50.080 to refute all that expert testimony, the jury heard first 0:16:50.120 --> 0:16:54.080 from Lucy and then from one other person. 0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:58.520 In the end, she didn't call any experts on ABF 0:16:59.080 --> 0:17:01.120 and we heard a plumber. 0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:05.240 So the optics may look a bit curious there. 0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:11.879 That's right. You just heard reporter Kim Pilling say that 0:17:11.960 --> 0:17:15.200 the only witness to be called on behalf of Lucy 0:17:15.280 --> 0:17:17.320 let be was a plumber. 0:17:17.960 --> 0:17:20.119 He was just called to make a point which had 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:22.760 come up during the trial that there'd been issues in 0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:27.119 the past with a sewage system on the unit, which 0:17:27.480 --> 0:17:30.520 the defense sort of portrayed the picture of well or 0:17:30.640 --> 0:17:31.920 was not well at the hospital. 0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:36.440 In fact, for about a year the unit was designated 0:17:36.520 --> 0:17:40.800 a risk, sometimes a high risk for a bacteria called 0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:49.159 Pseudomonas eruginosa, absolutely deadly for newborn babies. This decision to 0:17:49.280 --> 0:17:52.600 only call one person other than Lucy to the stand 0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:58.280 it's been widely criticized, but Lucy's current lawyer, Mark McDonald 0:17:58.760 --> 0:18:02.280 says that painting a pure of a sick hospital was important, 0:18:02.960 --> 0:18:06.120 something he believes is partly key to the question of 0:18:06.119 --> 0:18:08.840 what happened to those seven babies who died. 0:18:09.080 --> 0:18:11.760 It's no surprising now that we have so many problems 0:18:11.800 --> 0:18:15.280 in our NHS, not soly down to poor doctoring, but 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:19.160 you know a whole complex issues in our hospital environment 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:22.359 that we have a crisis. Our health system in this 0:18:22.440 --> 0:18:25.480 country is broken, and I should say that Lucy's a 0:18:25.520 --> 0:18:30.600 consequence of that broken system. 0:18:30.720 --> 0:18:34.520 But Mark's message is more than that. He believes there 0:18:34.560 --> 0:18:37.120 is another broken system at play here. 0:18:37.760 --> 0:18:40.240 One of the failings in our criminal justice system is 0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:43.200 that our threshold well what is an expert is actually 0:18:43.280 --> 0:18:46.240 quite low, as almost any medic can pitch up and 0:18:46.280 --> 0:18:49.600 say that they're an expert at something. And I know 0:18:49.680 --> 0:18:52.440 that it was argued during the trial that the lead 0:18:52.520 --> 0:18:55.840 expert in this case didn't have the expertise to say 0:18:56.280 --> 0:19:00.640 what he said. The Court of Appeal disagreed that defense 0:19:00.720 --> 0:19:04.320 arment was said to the trial judge. But that's one 0:19:04.320 --> 0:19:06.199 of the arguments that I'm now taken forward. 0:19:07.720 --> 0:19:10.959 Much has been made of doctor Dowie Evans since this trial. 0:19:11.640 --> 0:19:14.879 The police leaned heavily on his word and the Crown 0:19:15.000 --> 0:19:17.320 put him on the stand as their star witness. 0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:22.120 Juwey Evans was set up as some kind of messiah 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:23.080 of the truth. 0:19:23.680 --> 0:19:28.000 John Ashton, who investigates serious failures of practice and hospitals, 0:19:28.480 --> 0:19:31.320 found doctor Evans' testimony lacking. 0:19:31.480 --> 0:19:34.600 When actually, in my view, there is a case for 0:19:34.680 --> 0:19:38.080 him to answer with the General Medical Council, which has 0:19:38.200 --> 0:19:43.440 consistently refused to even look at his behavior and his testimonies. 0:19:44.480 --> 0:19:47.760 In essence, John is saying that the way doctor Evans 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:51.280 acted and what he said should have been investigated by 0:19:51.320 --> 0:19:55.480 the regulator for doctors in the UK, the General Medical Council, 0:19:56.400 --> 0:20:00.439 and John isn't alone in this thinking. Member of the 0:20:00.440 --> 0:20:04.560 people we interviewed had very specific issues with the way 0:20:04.600 --> 0:20:09.160 doctor Evans presented evidence during the trial and his behavior 0:20:09.359 --> 0:20:10.840 after not the. 0:20:10.800 --> 0:20:14.440 Experience I've got sitting down with experts. You know, they spake. 0:20:14.200 --> 0:20:16.600 A lot of time on these things and very rarely 0:20:16.640 --> 0:20:18.760 do they come out with it. Yes, this is being 0:20:19.000 --> 0:20:20.080 a deliberate killing. 0:20:20.680 --> 0:20:24.119 Doctor Steve Watts is a veteran police officer and former 0:20:24.160 --> 0:20:29.160 Assistant Chief Constable. He authored the National Guidelines for Investigating 0:20:29.200 --> 0:20:34.680 Potential Crimes in healthcare settings used by police departments across England. 0:20:35.760 --> 0:20:40.320 He thinks the Cheshire Police made every grave mistake possible 0:20:40.800 --> 0:20:45.679 during their investigation into Lucy, starting with their involvement with 0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:47.200 doctor Dowie Evans. 0:20:47.480 --> 0:20:52.040 You know, it's very much more nuanced than that. I mean, 0:20:52.400 --> 0:20:55.639 speaking personally, if I'd had an expert who responded in 0:20:55.680 --> 0:20:58.680 that way, it would raise questions in my mind as 0:20:58.680 --> 0:21:01.159 to whether I needed that evidence look to again, and 0:21:01.200 --> 0:21:03.560 that sort of view validated by others. 0:21:04.240 --> 0:21:08.040 Doctor Phil Hammond, a columnist from Private Eye magazine and 0:21:08.080 --> 0:21:11.320 a critic of Lucy's conviction, also weighed in. 0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:13.840 I think the thing that was a big red flag 0:21:13.880 --> 0:21:16.159 for me as a doctor about Dewry Evans, who's the 0:21:16.240 --> 0:21:19.240 lead prosecution expert, is his certainty. If he had said 0:21:19.560 --> 0:21:21.560 I've looked at all of these cases and in my 0:21:21.640 --> 0:21:24.919 professional opinion, the most likely cause of these deaths is 0:21:24.960 --> 0:21:28.399 deliberate harm, then that's absolutely fine to me. But what 0:21:28.520 --> 0:21:31.320 he said, he's absolutely certain that it's deliberate harm, and 0:21:31.359 --> 0:21:33.639 has since gone on podcasts saying that Lucy let Me 0:21:33.800 --> 0:21:37.320 is evil. He couldn't possibly be wrong. People are only 0:21:37.359 --> 0:21:40.320 defending her because they're obsessed with a pretty blonde nurse. 0:21:40.880 --> 0:21:43.400 He said some quite extraordinary things that have completely gone 0:21:43.400 --> 0:21:47.159 outside the lane of being an independent expert, and that 0:21:47.200 --> 0:21:48.439 for me is a big red flag. 0:21:50.240 --> 0:21:54.479 Michelle Warden, a neonatal practitioner at Countess of Chester, is 0:21:54.680 --> 0:21:57.000 also wary of doctor Evans's motivation. 0:21:57.720 --> 0:22:02.320 He's also on record of saying I've never lost a case. Now, 0:22:02.960 --> 0:22:05.399 how can an expert. He's not a barrister, he's not 0:22:05.440 --> 0:22:08.120 a lawyer. He shouldn't be about winning and losing. He's 0:22:08.160 --> 0:22:14.760 about giving his expert opinion. But he's never lost a case. 0:22:15.480 --> 0:22:18.119 So he's a hired gun really for the prosecution. It 0:22:18.160 --> 0:22:22.720 earned a lot of money. Is on record of saying, well, yes, 0:22:22.760 --> 0:22:24.199 I earned a lot of money, but I have to 0:22:24.240 --> 0:22:27.240 pay for my daughter's horse and my son's car. I mean, 0:22:28.240 --> 0:22:30.280 he's on record. He said that in a I think 0:22:30.320 --> 0:22:33.680 it was BBC radio program. He said that. 0:22:35.760 --> 0:22:40.920 Ben Myers, Lucy's original defense lawyer, did conduct a very 0:22:40.960 --> 0:22:43.640 aggressive cross examination of doctor Evans. 0:22:45.080 --> 0:22:48.480 No, what you have done in your evidence today is 0:22:48.560 --> 0:22:51.919 introduced something new with the purpose of supporting the allegation 0:22:52.400 --> 0:22:55.200 rather than explaining the facts. Isn't it. 0:22:55.480 --> 0:22:59.840 No, No, that is incorrect. I'm here to support the 0:23:00.080 --> 0:23:04.440 jury and everyone in this court trying to explain what 0:23:04.680 --> 0:23:07.280 was it that led to a baby who was very 0:23:07.320 --> 0:23:14.440 small and premature suddenly collapsing and where resuscitation was unsuccessful. 0:23:14.920 --> 0:23:18.640 In doing that, I am totally upfront in seeing that. 0:23:19.160 --> 0:23:23.040 It was very adversarial between mister Myers and Dowie Evans. 0:23:23.280 --> 0:23:25.959 I mean, they clashed quite regularly. 0:23:25.840 --> 0:23:28.399 And to the point where you know, in the end, 0:23:28.440 --> 0:23:31.520 we got very quickly to the point where mister Myers 0:23:31.600 --> 0:23:34.159 just accused Dowie Evans of being bused. 0:23:35.200 --> 0:23:39.080 I am not relying on my opinion alone. I'm relying 0:23:39.160 --> 0:23:45.240 on other people's opinion, sorry, other medical people's opinion as well. 0:23:45.840 --> 0:23:48.119 That is what doctors do. We do it all the time. 0:23:48.640 --> 0:23:49.720 That is what we do. 0:23:49.880 --> 0:23:53.399 Okay, So I'm here to assist the members of the 0:23:53.480 --> 0:23:58.320 jury in sorting out what is a pretty complicated case. 0:23:59.119 --> 0:24:02.800 I'm suggesting to you, Dr Evans that you were reaching 0:24:02.840 --> 0:24:07.840 for things that support the allegation rather than reflecting the facts. Well, 0:24:08.440 --> 0:24:09.520 I disagree with you. 0:24:10.320 --> 0:24:12.919 I have just explained the facts. 0:24:13.280 --> 0:24:17.640 Mister Meyeres was accusing him of being an unreliable witness, 0:24:17.880 --> 0:24:19.840 and Dutch Evans I think he took that. 0:24:19.880 --> 0:24:20.919