1 00:00:00,840 --> 00:00:05,399 Speaker 1: Before we begin, Please be aware this episode contains discussions 2 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:09,920 Speaker 1: around infant deaths and other difficult topics. Please take care 3 00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 1: while listening. The movement of the court can feel like theater. 4 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 1: Everyone a member of a caste who knows their roles. 5 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:25,919 Speaker 1: Stand when the judge comes in, speak from the witness box, 6 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 1: swear to tell the truth. The prosecution is bound to 7 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:34,560 Speaker 1: share their evidence with the defense, and the defense team 8 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:38,280 Speaker 1: prepares ahead of time how best to defend their clients. 9 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: Reporters who cover court for a living know this rhythm 10 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 1: in their bones. 11 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 2: I name every day a couple of other people there 12 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:48,560 Speaker 2: every day. 13 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 1: Kim Pilling, a reporter with the Press Association in the UK, 14 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 1: has been a news reporter for more than three decades, 15 00:00:56,800 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 1: twenty years as a court reporter and ten months months 16 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 1: of those covering the Lucy let Be case every single day, so. 17 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 2: We knew it was going to be a very lengthy trial, 18 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:15,400 Speaker 2: full of complexities and lots of complex medical evidence surrounding that. 19 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:19,760 Speaker 2: An effect was seventeen trials in one Really each day 20 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 2: we were full on, so to speak. There was a 21 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 2: lot of information being put out each day. 22 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:27,040 Speaker 3: It was done at a very brisk pace. 23 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 1: I remember sitting through days and days of medical testimony. 24 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: During my own trial, it was hard for me to follow, 25 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 1: and I can't imagine what it was like for the jury. 26 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 1: But my life depended upon people understanding this evidence. 27 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 2: The prosecution case closes, defense case starts, and she's cool 28 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 2: to give evidence. 29 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 1: One spring day in twenty twenty three, after the Crown 30 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 1: ended its case, the doors of the court were opened 31 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: for the first time that morning. 32 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 3: When we came into court, she was already sat down. 33 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:10,520 Speaker 1: For months. All anyone saw of Lucy let Be was 34 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:13,920 Speaker 1: from what the Brits call the doc It's essentially a 35 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:17,519 Speaker 1: glassed in box for prisoners to sit in during their trial. 36 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 1: From the public gallery, you see Lucy from the side, 37 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:24,360 Speaker 1: facing the judge, who sits on his dais at the 38 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 1: front of the courtroom. But on this May morning, Lucy 39 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 1: was waiting for everyone to arrive from a different vantage 40 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 1: point at the front of the court, facing out from 41 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: the witness box, before any. 42 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 3: Of the lawyers came into the room, any of the 43 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 3: families came into the room. 44 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 1: Since her arrest and through what was to be one 45 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:50,679 Speaker 1: of Britain's longest trials in history, Lucy let Bee had 46 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 1: lost the power to tell her own story. Now, sitting 47 00:02:55,919 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 1: there in the witness box, Lucy was about to try 48 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: to get that power back. Everyone knew it would be 49 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 1: a gamble. I'm Amanda Knox and from Vespucci and iHeart Podcasts. 50 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 1: This is doubt the Case of Lucy. Let be Episode five. 51 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 3: The Defense. 52 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 1: It is not a given that a defendant will testify 53 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 1: in their own trial. It's a tricky decision, and in England, 54 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 1: unlike in America, a failure to testify can actually be 55 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 1: held against a defendant. In my own trial, my lawyers 56 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 1: and I both wanted me to testify because we understood 57 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 1: that the prosecution's case relied so heavily on character assassination, 58 00:03:57,280 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 1: and the best antidote to that was for the jury 59 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: to see the real me. But there's a huge risk 60 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 1: in testifying. It's perfectly normal to get details wrong or 61 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 1: confuse the order of events when recalling something that happened 62 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 1: a long time ago. But every factual mistake in your 63 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 1: testimony is an opportunity for the prosecution to call you 64 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 1: a liar. And if you say I don't remember, as 65 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 1: my lawyers recommended I do, that can look evasive because 66 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 1: people expect you to remember everything, and when it came 67 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 1: to Lucy's cross examination, she often couldn't remember the details 68 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 1: and said so on the record. 69 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,599 Speaker 2: The defendants don't always give evidences. You don't have to 70 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 2: give evidence. 71 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: In an English courtroom, it's common for a witness that 72 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:53,920 Speaker 1: is also a prisoner to be escorted from the dock 73 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 1: to the witness stand. 74 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:58,159 Speaker 2: They walk across the courtroom in front of the public 75 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 2: gallery where I'm shat, and then you go across the 76 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 2: witness box, sit down, face the jury, prison guard behind you. 77 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:10,480 Speaker 1: But for the two weeks Lucy testified in her own defense, 78 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:15,159 Speaker 1: each morning she would be there ready sitting in the 79 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 1: witness box before anyone else came into the courtroom. 80 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 2: I think she preferred to be sat in place before 81 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:27,720 Speaker 2: the jury came in, so we didn't have this performance 82 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:31,279 Speaker 2: of her being led across each each day from the 83 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:33,040 Speaker 2: dock to the witness box. 84 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 4: This let be, would you give the court your full name? 85 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 3: Please? 86 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 5: Yes, Lucy let Be? 87 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 4: And what's your date of birth? Miss let Be? 88 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 5: Fourth of January nineteen ninety. 89 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 1: There are no recordings in a UK court, so we've 90 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 1: had actors read from the trial transcripts. 91 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 4: When was it that you first knew you wanted to 92 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:02,279 Speaker 4: be a nurse. 93 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: The first five days Lucy spent answering questions from her 94 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 1: defense lawyer. 95 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 5: I've always wanted to work with children, but it was 96 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 5: towards the end of secondary school that I thought I 97 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 5: wanted to do nursing, and then picked a level subjects 98 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 5: that would best support that career. 99 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: After months of evidence being presented against her, it was 100 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 1: finally Lucy's turn to answer for herself. 101 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 4: Over the period of twenty fifteen to twenty sixteen, we 102 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:38,480 Speaker 4: know you were looking at a number of babies in 103 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 4: this indictment, and you understand that, don't you. Yes, there's 104 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 4: seventeen of them. Yes, But could you put a figure 105 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:50,160 Speaker 4: on the number of babies you cared for over that 106 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:51,359 Speaker 4: twelve month period? 107 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:55,119 Speaker 5: Probably hundreds hundreds? Yes? 108 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 4: And did you care for them? 109 00:06:56,920 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 5: Yes? 110 00:06:57,440 --> 00:06:59,600 Speaker 4: Did you ever do anything that was meant to hurt 111 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 4: any of them? 112 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 2: No? 113 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 5: I only ever did my best to care for them. 114 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 4: Did you ever want to hurt any baby you looked after? 115 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 5: No, that's completely against everything that being a nurse is. 116 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 5: I'm there to help and to care, not to harm. 117 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 1: Everything about Lucy let Be was scrutinized during her time 118 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 1: on the stand. From what she wore, she was. 119 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 3: So dark blue black, you know, she quite no bright colors. 120 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 1: To how she spoke, she was. 121 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 2: Very directave clear answers, didn't deviate from the question, but 122 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 2: again not particularly expressive. 123 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 1: And of course how she looked. 124 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 2: I mean, if you didn't know she was a nurse, 125 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 2: you might think she was a librarian, something like that. 126 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 3: You know, quite mousey. Maybe that's been a kid. 127 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 1: This intense gaze on your every move and utterance is exhausting. 128 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 1: When it came to the coverage of my trial, I 129 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 1: was in an unwinnable situation. If I smiled at my 130 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 1: family in the courtroom, a small gesture to let them 131 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: know I was surviving, I was a media whore hungry 132 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 1: for the spotlight. If I cried, they were crocodile tears 133 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 1: and I was being manipulative. It was soul destroying. In 134 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 1: September of twenty twenty four, Lucy let Be got a 135 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:38,439 Speaker 1: new lawyer. His name is Mark McDonald. 136 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:42,559 Speaker 6: So, I mean, it all initially started when the family 137 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 6: contacted me and asked me to go and see Lucy. 138 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 1: It's almost as though Mark McDonald's career was leading him 139 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:49,559 Speaker 1: to this case. 140 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 6: I think this is a mischaracter justice. Before I became 141 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 6: a barrister, actually in the operating theater, of the operating 142 00:08:56,679 --> 00:09:01,200 Speaker 6: room as they called it in the US, for fourteen years, 143 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 6: I was an assistant to the anetheist and the surgeon. 144 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:08,559 Speaker 6: I've worked in the INTERP two K unit, I've worked 145 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 6: in A and E. I've spent many years working and 146 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:17,599 Speaker 6: embedded in the hospital in former situations as a doctor's assistant, 147 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 6: I carried the crash bleep when I went to cardiac arrest. 148 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 6: On the ward, I could take part an anesthetic machine 149 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 6: and ventilators and put them back together again. I knew 150 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 6: all the drugs and assistants. I intubated, I put IV 151 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 6: lines in, I put arterial lines in, netlines in. I 152 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:37,680 Speaker 6: had a wealth of knowledge. And then I came to 153 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 6: the bar and I qualified through night. 154 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 1: School at the age of thirty four. Mark became a lawyer. 155 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:49,079 Speaker 1: Today he has taken on Lucy's case and is working 156 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 1: pro bono. 157 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 6: You know, from the moment she was arrested, it became 158 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 6: a story in the mainstream media, on the front page 159 00:09:55,840 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 6: of all the newspapers and documentaries and news items. She 160 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 6: was described as evil as you described as the worst 161 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:09,079 Speaker 6: person in the country. It became about dismantling her as 162 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 6: an individual, and I don't want to be part of 163 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 6: that narrative. I want to focus on what convicted her 164 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 6: and ow do ee and do that conviction. 165 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 1: Mark says to do that, he has employed a multi 166 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:23,439 Speaker 1: pronged approach. 167 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 6: The first element is the most important element. You don't 168 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 6: undo a conviction unless you have the legal arguments and 169 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 6: the expertise to be able to do so. 170 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 1: Going through Lucy's testimony, it's clear that was something Lucy's 171 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 1: trial lawyer Ben Myers had attempted to do. For example, 172 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:47,960 Speaker 1: the jury had heard that Lucy was on duty for 173 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 1: every suspicious death and collapse. Myers tried to show that 174 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 1: she was not alone. 175 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 4: What was the atmosphere like concerning Baby N as that 176 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 4: afternoon went on, We see there were these multiple attempts 177 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 4: at indubation. 178 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 5: It was becoming increasingly chaotic. More and more staff were 179 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 5: coming to try and assist. There was a sense of 180 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 5: panic around the unit. I think that we weren't sure 181 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:20,839 Speaker 5: how we were going to manage Baby n. 182 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 4: Do you remember how many people were present as the 183 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:28,200 Speaker 4: afternoon went on, how many people gathered. 184 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 5: There were loads of people I would say ten to fifteen. 185 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 4: Were you his designated nurse during this Yes? Were you 186 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 4: the only person caring for him at any point? 187 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 5: No baby n needed such care that he always had 188 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 5: at least two members of staff with him. I remember 189 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:55,680 Speaker 5: nurse being helping a lot, and the doctors were near 190 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:57,319 Speaker 5: enough in the room the whole time. 191 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:02,959 Speaker 1: Mark won't cred size Lucy's original lawyer, but he has 192 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:06,079 Speaker 1: no trouble pointing out what he says is a lack 193 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:08,359 Speaker 1: of evidence against his client. 194 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 6: No direct evidence of Lucy's doing anything wrong. In fact 195 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 6: the opposite. So no witnesses, no forensic evidence. Don't see 196 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 6: see TV you know, no lesson abted drunks that have 197 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 6: gone missing, In fact the opposite. She was highly regarded 198 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 6: and seen by many on the unit as an excellent nurse. 199 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:30,680 Speaker 1: But what about those damning post it notes, the self 200 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 1: incriminating notes found under Lucy's bed during the police investigation. 201 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:38,839 Speaker 7: I am an awful person, you write down at the 202 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:40,320 Speaker 7: top right hand corner, don't you? 203 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 8: Yes? 204 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 7: And that's true, isn't it. 205 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 5: No, That's how I felt at the time. I was 206 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:49,120 Speaker 5: not good enough and I must be an awful person. 207 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:54,199 Speaker 1: The Crown used those notes and her social media posts 208 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:56,960 Speaker 1: to try and paint a picture of a woman who 209 00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:58,199 Speaker 1: would hurt babies. 210 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 7: We don't need to go back through the social media 211 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 7: stuff to show you out on the rasp with your friends, 212 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:06,320 Speaker 7: do we No, you are having a good time, weren't you. 213 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 5: Yes? There were times in those years that I did 214 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 5: have good times. 215 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 7: Yes, drinking fizz, going to the races. 216 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:15,319 Speaker 5: Yes. 217 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 4: Yes, you felt like. 218 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:19,680 Speaker 7: This because you knew that you had killed and grievously 219 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 7: injured these children. No, and that's the truth, isn't it. 220 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 5: No, it's not the truth. 221 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 7: You are a murderer. 222 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:27,440 Speaker 5: No, I am not. 223 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:29,559 Speaker 7: You have murdered many children. 224 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:33,439 Speaker 5: I've never murdered a child or harmed any of them. 225 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:35,680 Speaker 7: I have nothing further. Thank you. 226 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 1: Lucy's notes made for sensational headlines, but those who have 227 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:46,840 Speaker 1: come to Lucy's defense say the police and the media 228 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:52,320 Speaker 1: and ultimately the jury have read them all wrong. Mark 229 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 1: says Lucy had written these notes before she had been arrested, 230 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 1: but had realized she was being blamed for the deaths 231 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 1: on the unit. 232 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 4: Why had you written not good enough and underlined it? 233 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 5: I think that's the overwhelming thought and feeling that I 234 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:15,479 Speaker 5: had about myself at that point that I wasn't. 235 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 4: Good enough and why did you think you weren't. 236 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 5: Good enough because of the way people have made me feel? 237 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 4: Had you actually done anything wrong to hurt any baby? 238 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 6: No, and emotionally, she's writing this stuff down, as I say, 239 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 6: with other stuff, saying that she hadn't done anything wrong, 240 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 6: But the prosecution presented this to the Jewy as a confession, 241 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:41,119 Speaker 6: and it was left to the Jewy as a confession. 242 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 1: Lucy wasn't the only nurse who leaned on this practice 243 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 1: to help them cope with how hard their job really was. 244 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 9: I do that too. 245 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 1: This is a nurse named Jenny Harris. She's been a 246 00:14:57,320 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 1: new Needdle nurse for eighteen years. 247 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 9: So like things like saying that she did the confession 248 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 9: on the post it note. I've been to therapy, I've 249 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 9: been in CBT, I've had counselors and they've told me 250 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 9: to write things down on what I'm thinking and what 251 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 9: I'm feeling, but it doesn't mean it's right. So like, 252 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 9: for example, I had a core belief that I was 253 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 9: worthless and I was a bad person. There was no 254 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 9: evidence that I was a bad person. That's what I've 255 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 9: learned through my therapy. But I was to write that down, 256 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 9: and I would write down I'm worthless, I'm a bad person, 257 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 9: but I'm not a bad person. 258 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 3: But just because I. 259 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 9: Wrote it down doesn't mean it's true. But as soon 260 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 9: as I heard that she'd written these post it notes, 261 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 9: I was like, well, I've done that. 262 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 1: Well the prosecution considered these notes a confession. Mark McDonald says, 263 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 1: one of UK's leading experts on false confessions, does not 264 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 1: see it that way. 265 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 6: Thank you for everything, and he writes a very detailed 266 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 6: report says this is not a confession. It should never 267 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 6: have been treated as a confession. In fact, should never 268 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 6: be put before the jewelry. And we've got to remember 269 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 6: again that was left to the Jewey as a confession, 270 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 6: and no expert evidence before the jewelry to counter that. 271 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 6: It was part of and a strong part of the 272 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 6: public narrative. 273 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 1: Over the course of those twenty five weeks the Crown 274 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 1: put on their case, the jury heard from expert after expert, 275 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 1: hundreds of hours of testimony from people who all believed 276 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 1: Lucy had killed these babies. But when it came time 277 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 1: to refute all that expert testimony, the jury heard first 278 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 1: from Lucy and then from one other person. 279 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 2: In the end, she didn't call any experts on ABF 280 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 2: and we heard a plumber. 281 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 3: So the optics may look a bit curious there. 282 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:11,879 Speaker 1: That's right. You just heard reporter Kim Pilling say that 283 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:15,200 Speaker 1: the only witness to be called on behalf of Lucy 284 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 1: let be was a plumber. 285 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:20,119 Speaker 2: He was just called to make a point which had 286 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 2: come up during the trial that there'd been issues in 287 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:27,119 Speaker 2: the past with a sewage system on the unit, which 288 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 2: the defense sort of portrayed the picture of well or 289 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:31,920 Speaker 2: was not well at the hospital. 290 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:36,440 Speaker 1: In fact, for about a year the unit was designated 291 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 1: a risk, sometimes a high risk for a bacteria called 292 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:49,159 Speaker 1: Pseudomonas eruginosa, absolutely deadly for newborn babies. This decision to 293 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 1: only call one person other than Lucy to the stand 294 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: it's been widely criticized, but Lucy's current lawyer, Mark McDonald 295 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 1: says that painting a pure of a sick hospital was important, 296 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:06,120 Speaker 1: something he believes is partly key to the question of 297 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 1: what happened to those seven babies who died. 298 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 6: It's no surprising now that we have so many problems 299 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 6: in our NHS, not soly down to poor doctoring, but 300 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:19,160 Speaker 6: you know a whole complex issues in our hospital environment 301 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:22,359 Speaker 6: that we have a crisis. Our health system in this 302 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 6: country is broken, and I should say that Lucy's a 303 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 6: consequence of that broken system. 304 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 1: But Mark's message is more than that. He believes there 305 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:37,120 Speaker 1: is another broken system at play here. 306 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:40,240 Speaker 6: One of the failings in our criminal justice system is 307 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 6: that our threshold well what is an expert is actually 308 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 6: quite low, as almost any medic can pitch up and 309 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 6: say that they're an expert at something. And I know 310 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:52,440 Speaker 6: that it was argued during the trial that the lead 311 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 6: expert in this case didn't have the expertise to say 312 00:18:56,280 --> 00:19:00,640 Speaker 6: what he said. The Court of Appeal disagreed that defense 313 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 6: arment was said to the trial judge. But that's one 314 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:06,199 Speaker 6: of the arguments that I'm now taken forward. 315 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:10,959 Speaker 1: Much has been made of doctor Dowie Evans since this trial. 316 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:14,879 Speaker 1: The police leaned heavily on his word and the Crown 317 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 1: put him on the stand as their star witness. 318 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:22,120 Speaker 10: Juwey Evans was set up as some kind of messiah 319 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 10: of the truth. 320 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 1: John Ashton, who investigates serious failures of practice and hospitals, 321 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 1: found doctor Evans' testimony lacking. 322 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 10: When actually, in my view, there is a case for 323 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 10: him to answer with the General Medical Council, which has 324 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:43,440 Speaker 10: consistently refused to even look at his behavior and his testimonies. 325 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 1: In essence, John is saying that the way doctor Evans 326 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 1: acted and what he said should have been investigated by 327 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:55,480 Speaker 1: the regulator for doctors in the UK, the General Medical Council, 328 00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:00,439 Speaker 1: and John isn't alone in this thinking. Member of the 329 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 1: people we interviewed had very specific issues with the way 330 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:09,160 Speaker 1: doctor Evans presented evidence during the trial and his behavior 331 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 1: after not the. 332 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 3: Experience I've got sitting down with experts. You know, they spake. 333 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 11: A lot of time on these things and very rarely 334 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 11: do they come out with it. Yes, this is being 335 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 11: a deliberate killing. 336 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:24,119 Speaker 1: Doctor Steve Watts is a veteran police officer and former 337 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:29,160 Speaker 1: Assistant Chief Constable. He authored the National Guidelines for Investigating 338 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:34,680 Speaker 1: Potential Crimes in healthcare settings used by police departments across England. 339 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: He thinks the Cheshire Police made every grave mistake possible 340 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:45,679 Speaker 1: during their investigation into Lucy, starting with their involvement with 341 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:47,200 Speaker 1: doctor Dowie Evans. 342 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 11: You know, it's very much more nuanced than that. I mean, 343 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,639 Speaker 11: speaking personally, if I'd had an expert who responded in 344 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:58,680 Speaker 11: that way, it would raise questions in my mind as 345 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:01,159 Speaker 11: to whether I needed that evidence look to again, and 346 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 11: that sort of view validated by others. 347 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 1: Doctor Phil Hammond, a columnist from Private Eye magazine and 348 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 1: a critic of Lucy's conviction, also weighed in. 349 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 12: I think the thing that was a big red flag 350 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:16,159 Speaker 12: for me as a doctor about Dewry Evans, who's the 351 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 12: lead prosecution expert, is his certainty. If he had said 352 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 12: I've looked at all of these cases and in my 353 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:24,919 Speaker 12: professional opinion, the most likely cause of these deaths is 354 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:28,399 Speaker 12: deliberate harm, then that's absolutely fine to me. But what 355 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 12: he said, he's absolutely certain that it's deliberate harm, and 356 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:33,639 Speaker 12: has since gone on podcasts saying that Lucy let Me 357 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 12: is evil. He couldn't possibly be wrong. People are only 358 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 12: defending her because they're obsessed with a pretty blonde nurse. 359 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:43,400 Speaker 12: He said some quite extraordinary things that have completely gone 360 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:47,159 Speaker 12: outside the lane of being an independent expert, and that 361 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:48,439 Speaker 12: for me is a big red flag. 362 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:54,479 Speaker 1: Michelle Warden, a neonatal practitioner at Countess of Chester, is 363 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 1: also wary of doctor Evans's motivation. 364 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 8: He's also on record of saying I've never lost a case. Now, 365 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:05,399 Speaker 8: how can an expert. He's not a barrister, he's not 366 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,120 Speaker 8: a lawyer. He shouldn't be about winning and losing. He's 367 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 8: about giving his expert opinion. But he's never lost a case. 368 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,119 Speaker 8: So he's a hired gun really for the prosecution. It 369 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:22,720 Speaker 8: earned a lot of money. Is on record of saying, well, yes, 370 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:24,199 Speaker 8: I earned a lot of money, but I have to 371 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 8: pay for my daughter's horse and my son's car. I mean, 372 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 8: he's on record. He said that in a I think 373 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:33,680 Speaker 8: it was BBC radio program. He said that. 374 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:40,920 Speaker 1: Ben Myers, Lucy's original defense lawyer, did conduct a very 375 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:43,640 Speaker 1: aggressive cross examination of doctor Evans. 376 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 4: No, what you have done in your evidence today is 377 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:51,919 Speaker 4: introduced something new with the purpose of supporting the allegation 378 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,200 Speaker 4: rather than explaining the facts. Isn't it. 379 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 13: No, No, that is incorrect. I'm here to support the 380 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:04,440 Speaker 13: jury and everyone in this court trying to explain what 381 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 13: was it that led to a baby who was very 382 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:14,440 Speaker 13: small and premature suddenly collapsing and where resuscitation was unsuccessful. 383 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:18,640 Speaker 13: In doing that, I am totally upfront in seeing that. 384 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 2: It was very adversarial between mister Myers and Dowie Evans. 385 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:25,959 Speaker 3: I mean, they clashed quite regularly. 386 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,399 Speaker 2: And to the point where you know, in the end, 387 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,520 Speaker 2: we got very quickly to the point where mister Myers 388 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:34,159 Speaker 2: just accused Dowie Evans of being bused. 389 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 13: I am not relying on my opinion alone. I'm relying 390 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 13: on other people's opinion, sorry, other medical people's opinion as well. 391 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,119 Speaker 3: That is what doctors do. We do it all the time. 392 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 3: That is what we do. 393 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:53,399 Speaker 13: Okay, So I'm here to assist the members of the 394 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 13: jury in sorting out what is a pretty complicated case. 395 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 4: I'm suggesting to you, Dr Evans that you were reaching 396 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 4: for things that support the allegation rather than reflecting the facts. Well, 397 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 4: I disagree with you. 398 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,919 Speaker 14: I have just explained the facts. 399 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:17,640 Speaker 2: Mister Meyeres was accusing him of being an unreliable witness, 400 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 2: and Dutch Evans I think he took that. 401 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:20,919 Speaker 3: Personally as well. 402 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 2: So that played all out and at times it was 403 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:25,360 Speaker 2: quite uncomfortable. 404 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 3: To listen to. 405 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 1: It's up to every defense team to decide which witnesses 406 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 1: to call and how to present their case. But it's 407 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 1: important to remember that Lucy was considered innocent before the 408 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 1: jury found her guilty, and it wasn't her lawyer's job 409 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 1: to prove her innocent. His job was to poke holes 410 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 1: in the evidence presented against her. And at some point 411 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 1: Lucy's team decided they would not call their own witnesses. 412 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 3: I mean, you know that's the defense meant that decision, 413 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:07,640 Speaker 3: and they're not at liberty to disclose why they met 414 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 3: the decision like that. 415 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 2: But I'd say that my experience is, if you're going 416 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 2: to call a witness, are they going to help your case, 417 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:17,880 Speaker 2: are they're going to assist it? 418 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 3: Or could they potentially damage your case? 419 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 2: And as a general rule, if the downside is greater 420 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 2: than the upside, then it's maybe best not to call 421 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 2: this wordness for whatever reason. Mister Meyers is extremely experienced. 422 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 3: Council. 423 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:39,639 Speaker 2: If they've decided not to call the medical experts, that 424 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,439 Speaker 2: it wouldn't have been done on a whim, and it 425 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,440 Speaker 2: would have been a tactical decision. 426 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:51,159 Speaker 1: It's a tactical decision that doctor Mike Hall did not 427 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:51,919 Speaker 1: agree with. 428 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,640 Speaker 14: I was indignant, I think it was the best word 429 00:25:56,000 --> 00:26:01,440 Speaker 14: I can find, and extremely concerned that I had heard 430 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 14: things said purporting to be medical facts, which in my 431 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 14: view were not medical facts. 432 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 1: Doctor Mike Hall, an expert in neonatal medicine was there 433 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 1: for the whole trial on behalf of the defense team. 434 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 14: The request was that they asked if I would attend 435 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:24,639 Speaker 14: court now, initially for the first probably three or four months, 436 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 14: that was in person in Manchester, and subsequently for the 437 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,639 Speaker 14: last I can remember two or three months of the trial. 438 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 14: I did that from home. 439 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 1: Doctor Hall was expecting to be called as an expert 440 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,440 Speaker 1: witness for the defense. That never happened. 441 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 14: I'm not ilegal legally trained in any way, so as 442 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,040 Speaker 14: a man in the street, as it were, I couldn't 443 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 14: understand why on earth you would not call expert witnesses, 444 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:56,119 Speaker 14: particularly given what I'd heard by other expert witnesses. A 445 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:59,480 Speaker 14: significant proportion of what some of the other expert witnesses 446 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:03,119 Speaker 14: said I disagreed with, and while the jury would have 447 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:07,719 Speaker 14: had to decide which of us they believe, I think 448 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 14: it was important in my view for Lucy let Be 449 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,360 Speaker 14: to have experts who gave a different opinion. 450 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:19,680 Speaker 1: Doctor Hall says that he disagreed with a fundamental aspect 451 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 1: of the Crown's case. 452 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 14: This concept that really was portrayed at the trial, that 453 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:29,680 Speaker 14: babies don't suddenly collapse for no no good reason, that's 454 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:33,359 Speaker 14: not the case in the enatal Claire. Babies do suddenly change, 455 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 14: and they can change quite quickly when you're not expecting 456 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:37,359 Speaker 14: them to. 457 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 1: Doctor Evans argued that Lucy must have caused an air 458 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:49,160 Speaker 1: embolism by pumping air into their bodies, but since the conviction, 459 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:54,159 Speaker 1: controversy around that theory has grown, Doctor Hall says that 460 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:56,960 Speaker 1: if he had been able to testify, he would have 461 00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:58,360 Speaker 1: pointed out the flaws. 462 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 14: I thought all of the conclusion relating to our embolism 463 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 14: were not based on credible evidence. 464 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 1: Mark McDonald says that the first part of his job 465 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,080 Speaker 1: is to get the courts to acknowledge key issues with 466 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 1: the evidence used to convict Lucy. That includes issues with 467 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:19,400 Speaker 1: the way police framed the timeline of the so called murders. 468 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,960 Speaker 1: He says that parents who lost babies after Lucy was 469 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 1: off the ward have been ignored by the police. 470 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:32,720 Speaker 6: I've disgusted with families who have lost their children as 471 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 6: a result of problems, medical problems, diagnoses and failures to 472 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 6: treat a child who has died. And so I've got 473 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 6: these people. These have all come to me since so 474 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 6: I get many emails every day. 475 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 1: But there is more to Mark's approach than just dealing 476 00:28:55,560 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 1: with problematic evidence. Remember, his approach has more than one prong. 477 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 6: The second is to change the narrative around her. 478 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 1: Mark says that this negative narrative around Lucy is hurting 479 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 1: her chances for an appeal. 480 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 6: So it's important to get an alternative narrative out. They're 481 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 6: not a false al tentative plan, not a pretend narrative, 482 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:21,560 Speaker 6: but simply tell the truth as to what's going on 483 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,520 Speaker 6: in exposing the issues. She was one of the most 484 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 6: qualified nurses on the unit, which is why she got 485 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:31,720 Speaker 6: all the seriously ill patients. And she was someone also 486 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 6: that worked, had a passion for a job, so did 487 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 6: a lot of extra shift. She was saving up to 488 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:41,800 Speaker 6: buy a flat, and so she would do extra hours 489 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 6: so she would get more money so she could get 490 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:47,240 Speaker 6: herself a mortgage for her apartment. And so she was 491 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 6: someone who was committed and loved her job. And she 492 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 6: told me one weeks ago that you know, she would 493 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 6: go out in the evening, she'ld go out with friends 494 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,440 Speaker 6: and she'd get a text from the unit because they 495 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 6: couldn't set up this particular type of equipment and didn't 496 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:01,920 Speaker 6: know how to do it, and say she had come out, 497 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:03,760 Speaker 6: and she'd go back and she'd showed them how to 498 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:06,120 Speaker 6: do it, but says she was always sort of almost 499 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,400 Speaker 6: constantly on call and constantly there. 500 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,480 Speaker 1: This hits me hard. I know what it feels like 501 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 1: when other people take your life story and write their 502 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:23,600 Speaker 1: own narrative. I've had my own diaries used against me. 503 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 1: I've had my childhood nickname twisted to mean something ugly. 504 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 1: I too, tried to be the author of my own story. 505 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 1: After my trials, and once I was back home in 506 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,800 Speaker 1: the US, I wrote my first book, hoping that if 507 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 1: I told things from my point of view, people would 508 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:48,760 Speaker 1: hear it. Some did, lots did not. It took me 509 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 1: years to find a way through this maze. A big 510 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 1: part of this journey is accepting that I will never 511 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 1: be able to correct all the false perceptions about me. 512 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 1: I have to find my sense of freedom outside of 513 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 1: the question of whether people believe I'm innocent. I'm not alone. 514 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 1: So many women who face the criminal justice system face this. 515 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 1: One thing I've noticed is that it's more common for 516 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:21,080 Speaker 1: women to face character assassination than men. They have to 517 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 1: deal with unequal scrutiny when they are faced with answering 518 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 1: for a crime, innocent or not, the justice system is 519 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 1: not genderblind. 520 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 6: Years after this conviction is over to people will be 521 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 6: talking about issues of misolgyny and feminism that I think 522 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 6: polluted the whole. In this case, I have the narrative 523 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:45,840 Speaker 6: behind it. 524 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 1: When I was researching for this podcast, I came across 525 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:58,320 Speaker 1: this video online for expeditions the Living Library of Knowledge. 526 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 15: When I talk about the gender nature of law is 527 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 15: about basing attitudes towards women in the stereotypes and the 528 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 15: myths that exist about womanhood and about women's sexuality, about 529 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:11,600 Speaker 15: the need to constrain women. 530 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:18,200 Speaker 1: This is Baroness Helena Kennedy, a distinguished politician, human rights advocate, 531 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 1: and lawyer who practiced law for over fifty years, often 532 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 1: focusing on women and the law, the. 533 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 15: Ways in which it is assumed that women will manipulate 534 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:32,000 Speaker 15: and lie, the ways in which itselften assumed that women 535 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 15: will not be honest about their own sexual longings and behavior, 536 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,520 Speaker 15: and indeed the very idea that women have sexual longings 537 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:42,120 Speaker 15: has often been denied in law. 538 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:46,120 Speaker 1: This question of why women may be treated differently by 539 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 1: the judicial system is one I've spent a lot of 540 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:53,960 Speaker 1: time thinking about. Here's me speaking to my producer about this. 541 00:32:55,800 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 1: You know, there are ways that men are stereotyped, Like 542 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:04,000 Speaker 1: things that people tend to project onto men are things 543 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 1: like anger and violence. And so if someone is able 544 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 1: to present themselves calmly and with confidence in a courtroom, 545 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 1: people are when they're a man that plays well for 546 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:20,360 Speaker 1: them right, they seem relatable, agreeable, especially if they're put together. 547 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 1: Luigimnngoni is a great example here in the US right now, 548 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:29,280 Speaker 1: where he is this charismatic, very seemingly like optimistic figure, 549 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 1: despite the fact that there's copious evidence that shows that 550 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 1: he just murdered this CEO of a healthcare company in 551 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 1: cold blood. It's amazing to me that like men who 552 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:46,360 Speaker 1: are accused of murder can still imbue this sense of charm, 553 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 1: this sense of this calm, confident, amicable nature. Whereas when 554 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 1: it comes to women, if you smile and have this 555 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:02,000 Speaker 1: sense of calm or warmth to you, well you're clearly 556 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 1: a psychopath. If you are cold and withdrawn, well you're 557 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 1: clearly a psychopath. Like it just seems that when it 558 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:13,160 Speaker 1: comes to women, if your drab and ugly, well that's 559 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:16,440 Speaker 1: more motive for you have to have committed some crime. 560 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:21,960 Speaker 1: If you're beautiful and charismatic, Ah, well, that's more ability 561 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,279 Speaker 1: for you to have used your feminine wiles in order 562 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:28,719 Speaker 1: to commit this crime. There's just no winning when you're 563 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:34,160 Speaker 1: a woman. Everything about you, anything that you do, or 564 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 1: say or appear to be, can be used to find 565 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:43,399 Speaker 1: fault in you. And when it comes to Lucy, let 566 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:48,319 Speaker 1: be I mean this is true of all women who 567 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:52,719 Speaker 1: are accused of violent crimes, violent crimes that statistically are 568 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,600 Speaker 1: committed by men, and so we do not expect them 569 00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 1: to be committed by women. And so we think that 570 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,719 Speaker 1: a woman has to be a true, the egregious example 571 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,880 Speaker 1: of a monster in order to rise to the level 572 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,640 Speaker 1: of violence that men are capable of. And then, above all, 573 00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:11,280 Speaker 1: for that to be someone who is in the position 574 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:16,479 Speaker 1: of being a caretaker for a vulnerable population like that 575 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,839 Speaker 1: is the greatest betrayal of our sex that you could 576 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 1: possibly be. And so it doesn't come to a surprise 577 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:29,520 Speaker 1: to me that Lucy, having been found guilty of these crimes, 578 00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 1: having been found guilty of this betrayal of our gender, 579 00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:37,440 Speaker 1: was handed such a harsh sentence to be made an 580 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,279 Speaker 1: example of. And in the one hand, I sort of 581 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 1: understand it because society does rely upon women being safe 582 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:50,800 Speaker 1: and stable, and so we are especially driven to punish 583 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:59,400 Speaker 1: and condemn examples of when that doesn't pan out. That's 584 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:03,160 Speaker 1: exact exactly what Lucy let Be was about to face. 585 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 1: She's now sitting in prison, about to be sentenced to 586 00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:15,560 Speaker 1: one of the harshest sentences in British history, coming up 587 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:17,880 Speaker 1: on doubt the case of Lucy let Be. 588 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:22,600 Speaker 15: As soon as she was found guilty, it was I mean, 589 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:26,360 Speaker 15: there was just no voice scene of any skepticism or 590 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:29,240 Speaker 15: doubt about the verdict. It was just the first time 591 00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:33,040 Speaker 15: that things were questioned really openly. It just didn't It 592 00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:34,400 Speaker 15: just didn't sit right to me. 593 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:35,440 Speaker 3: It wasn't believable. 594 00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:38,320 Speaker 2: There's huge holes in the story that they were telling 595 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:39,239 Speaker 2: and what they had to. 596 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:39,959 Speaker 3: Back it up with. 597 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,200 Speaker 1: Doubt. The Case of Lucy let Bee is brought to 598 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:50,839 Speaker 1: you by Vespucci, iHeart Podcasts and Knox Robinson Productions. I've 599 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:54,960 Speaker 1: been your host Amanda Knox. This episode was written by 600 00:36:55,040 --> 00:37:00,759 Speaker 1: Kathleen Goldharm. Senior producer is Natalia Rodriguez. The producer was 601 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:05,399 Speaker 1: Lucy Ditchmont. The assistant producer was Amy Gill. The sound 602 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:09,399 Speaker 1: designer is Tom Biddle. The theme music was written by 603 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:14,960 Speaker 1: Tom Biddle, story editing by Kathleen Goldhar. Legal advice was 604 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:19,640 Speaker 1: provided by Jack Browning. Voice acting by Kenny Blythe, Serena 605 00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:25,399 Speaker 1: Montigui and Paul Leaming. The producers at iHeart Podcasts are 606 00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:31,319 Speaker 1: Chandler Mays and Katrina Norville. The executive producers were Joe Meek, 607 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:37,200 Speaker 1: Amanda Knox, Christopher Robinson, Daniel Turkin, and Johnny Galvin. Thank 608 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:37,920 Speaker 1: you for listening.