WEBVTT - Immigrants Aren't the Problem 0:00:14.076 --> 0:00:30.836 Push it. I'm Khalide Jubon Mohammad. 0:00:31.396 --> 0:00:33.836 I'm Ben Austen. We are two best. 0:00:33.516 --> 0:00:36.436 Friends, one African American. 0:00:36.636 --> 0:00:37.836 One white Caucasian. 0:00:39.276 --> 0:00:42.396 I'm a historian and I'm a journalist. And this is 0:00:42.436 --> 0:00:44.356 some of my best friends are. 0:00:44.676 --> 0:00:46.556 You know, like I'm not a racist, some of my 0:00:46.636 --> 0:00:51.116 best friends are immigrants. In this show, we wrestle with 0:00:51.156 --> 0:00:52.316 the challenges. 0:00:52.156 --> 0:00:54.836 And the absurdities of a deeply. 0:00:54.476 --> 0:00:56.076 Divided and unequal country. 0:00:56.836 --> 0:01:00.076 And today we're going to talk about immigration. It is 0:01:00.196 --> 0:01:04.276 an ongoing humanitarian crisis. But we have someone on the 0:01:04.276 --> 0:01:07.396 show today who is going to help us understand what 0:01:07.556 --> 0:01:10.716 is happening at the border, in Chicago. 0:01:10.476 --> 0:01:12.236 And New York, all over the. 0:01:12.116 --> 0:01:14.596 Place, and help us figure out how to do something 0:01:14.636 --> 0:01:14.996 about it. 0:01:15.556 --> 0:01:19.876 Yeah. Yeah, we are talking to Carolina Rubio mcwright. She's 0:01:19.916 --> 0:01:24.356 an immigration lawyer, artist, and activist fighting for immigrant rights. 0:01:25.076 --> 0:01:28.476 Carolina immigrated to the US from Bogata, Columbia when she 0:01:28.596 --> 0:01:31.996 was nineteen, and really she's committed her whole life to 0:01:32.316 --> 0:01:35.436 improving the system. She's going to talk to us about 0:01:35.556 --> 0:01:40.156 current immigration policies and share some innovative ways that we 0:01:40.276 --> 0:01:43.516 can all lend a hand in this crisis. Khalil. That's right, 0:01:43.556 --> 0:01:44.796 So let's get to this interview. 0:01:44.876 --> 0:01:57.356 Let's do it. Carolina Rubio mcwright. What an amazing name 0:01:57.436 --> 0:02:00.716 and an amazing person. Welcome to some of my best friends. 0:02:00.876 --> 0:02:02.316 I'm so excited to have you on the show. 0:02:03.476 --> 0:02:05.436 Thank you so much. Killy, I'm so excited. 0:02:05.676 --> 0:02:08.156 I've always been a big fan and very excited to 0:02:08.196 --> 0:02:09.036 finally meet Ben. 0:02:10.316 --> 0:02:12.316 That's wonderful. I'm excited to meet you too. 0:02:12.556 --> 0:02:13.036 That's right. 0:02:13.076 --> 0:02:13.396 We love. 0:02:13.556 --> 0:02:15.836 We love when our guests are not only among our 0:02:15.836 --> 0:02:19.156 best friends, but also our listeners to the show. You 0:02:19.356 --> 0:02:24.196 and my wife are big running buddies, like close friends, 0:02:24.556 --> 0:02:26.996 and our family spend a lot of time together. But 0:02:27.076 --> 0:02:31.036 this is a new relationship. So so here's my confession. 0:02:31.636 --> 0:02:35.436 On one of the first runs that I joined with 0:02:35.556 --> 0:02:38.996 this group, I meet you and you know, you have 0:02:39.116 --> 0:02:41.756 all this running gear on, like this vest and this 0:02:41.916 --> 0:02:44.156 water pack, and even to this day, I don't on 0:02:44.156 --> 0:02:46.516 one of those fancy water packs. But here's the thing. 0:02:48.236 --> 0:02:51.116 We were doing like some speed work and I was like, 0:02:51.236 --> 0:02:54.356 she's snow as shit, Like in my head, that's what 0:02:54.476 --> 0:02:55.076 I was thinking. 0:02:58.796 --> 0:03:00.956 This is where I have to apologize for my friends. 0:03:03.116 --> 0:03:07.276 So here's the thing, though, here's the thing, Carolina, I 0:03:07.436 --> 0:03:11.116 had no idea at the time that you are a 0:03:11.156 --> 0:03:17.076 fucking badass ultra marathon or and that like literally you 0:03:17.116 --> 0:03:20.636 are right now training for a seventy mile race somewhere 0:03:20.636 --> 0:03:24.436 in the world, somewhere with elevations and one hundred degree temperatures, 0:03:24.876 --> 0:03:27.876 and so I'm like, holy smoke. So I learned this later, 0:03:27.916 --> 0:03:30.676 I was like, oh man, did I get that wrong? 0:03:31.476 --> 0:03:31.956 I love it. 0:03:31.996 --> 0:03:36.436 I'm glad that you thought I was so slow. And 0:03:37.556 --> 0:03:39.596 one day, you know, maybe I'll gift you a vest 0:03:39.676 --> 0:03:42.076 so you can join me in these like longer excursions 0:03:42.116 --> 0:03:42.716 in the woods. 0:03:43.356 --> 0:03:43.796 That's right. 0:03:43.836 --> 0:03:47.716 Wow, that's right, Carolina. I'm excited to learn more from 0:03:47.756 --> 0:03:52.196 you about US immigration issues and what feels like a 0:03:52.236 --> 0:03:55.956 crisis and maybe it's a perpetual crisis. And maybe a 0:03:55.956 --> 0:03:59.356 way to start is could you just describe what your 0:03:59.396 --> 0:04:00.476 work is on immigration. 0:04:02.036 --> 0:04:05.036 Yeah, so it's it's been kind of a long journey, 0:04:05.116 --> 0:04:09.476 and it really starts from being an immigrant myself here 0:04:09.516 --> 0:04:12.596 when I was nineteen, and so a lot of where 0:04:12.596 --> 0:04:15.836 I am right now is dictated by that very long journey. 0:04:16.596 --> 0:04:19.796 I've created sort of a place where I call the Estuary, 0:04:20.356 --> 0:04:23.716 which is a mix of law and art, which is 0:04:23.916 --> 0:04:27.396 what I do. I do a lot of activism depending 0:04:27.396 --> 0:04:30.596 on who's in power. I went through policy, I did 0:04:30.796 --> 0:04:34.116 capital punishment cases. I've done a lot of different different 0:04:34.156 --> 0:04:38.556 pieces of work connected to immigration always, but my focus 0:04:38.676 --> 0:04:41.396 is really in producing resources and sort of staying in 0:04:41.436 --> 0:04:44.596 this place of the imagination where we can think of 0:04:44.756 --> 0:04:49.076 new options and routes and ways for immigration to occur 0:04:49.116 --> 0:04:53.276 in the world. And so currently I produce resources. I 0:04:53.316 --> 0:04:57.436 run a nonprofit called Touching Land. I don't represent people 0:04:58.036 --> 0:05:02.276 in courts anymore. I do only if I'm working inside 0:05:02.276 --> 0:05:05.116 a detention center, and I usually only do that when 0:05:05.356 --> 0:05:08.316 there's a crisis, which seems to happen like a lot 0:05:08.316 --> 0:05:10.716 in this country far as immigration, if we're not like 0:05:10.876 --> 0:05:15.676 using it as a pond for political gains and so so. Yeah, 0:05:15.716 --> 0:05:18.996 So I created this nonprofit where I create ways in 0:05:19.036 --> 0:05:23.716 which people can learn their rights in somatic ways, whether 0:05:23.796 --> 0:05:29.956 it's through sound, through singing, through clay, through all sorts 0:05:29.996 --> 0:05:34.636 of different ways, so that the information stays in their bodies, 0:05:34.756 --> 0:05:38.836 so that it's not just like completely inaccessible words that 0:05:38.876 --> 0:05:40.196 are passing through their heads. 0:05:40.676 --> 0:05:43.476 Two things quickly, I love the metaphor of an estuary 0:05:43.676 --> 0:05:47.396 I'm thinking of like this swirl of water and it 0:05:47.516 --> 0:05:51.676 just sort of sits there. That's beautiful. And then this 0:05:51.836 --> 0:05:55.836 notion of like art and things that stay in your 0:05:55.876 --> 0:05:58.836 body as opposed to words that just pass over and through. 0:05:58.876 --> 0:06:01.356 You really, really, really beautifully said. 0:06:02.436 --> 0:06:06.756 Yeah, I think we are so brainy, you know, and 0:06:06.796 --> 0:06:09.236 we're stuck in the brain and in our phones and 0:06:09.396 --> 0:06:12.396 sort of we're in bodies for a reason. Otherwise we'd 0:06:12.436 --> 0:06:15.916 be like flying brains, right And to me being in 0:06:15.956 --> 0:06:17.716 the body, I mean, that's why I run so much. 0:06:17.796 --> 0:06:19.956 It's the way that I feel freedom in my body 0:06:20.356 --> 0:06:23.436 when I live in structures of oppression that don't like 0:06:23.516 --> 0:06:25.316 the way I sound, the way I look, or the 0:06:25.316 --> 0:06:26.796 way I move the way I think. 0:06:27.876 --> 0:06:31.636 Carolyn, I want to talk about try to even understand 0:06:31.716 --> 0:06:33.596 what's happening in the country right now, even on a 0:06:33.636 --> 0:06:37.796 policy level, And a way maybe to frame our conversation 0:06:38.636 --> 0:06:41.156 is to describe what's going on in Chicago right now, 0:06:41.196 --> 0:06:42.796 which is where I live. I know you guys are 0:06:42.836 --> 0:06:47.196 in the suburbs in New Jersey, and to use to 0:06:47.316 --> 0:06:50.316 use Chicago as a way to try to understand the 0:06:50.316 --> 0:06:53.076 bigger issues nationally. And so you might already know this 0:06:53.236 --> 0:06:57.996 but last August, the Texas governor Greg Abbott, he sent 0:06:58.036 --> 0:07:01.436 a first bus load of migrants to Chicago as a 0:07:01.516 --> 0:07:04.596 kind of political stunt, using human beings as a political 0:07:04.636 --> 0:07:07.676 tool and you know, making more liberal parts of the 0:07:07.716 --> 0:07:10.796 country have to deal with what places on the border 0:07:11.236 --> 0:07:14.436 have been grappling with, and in a lot of ways, 0:07:14.476 --> 0:07:17.836 his stunt has worked. So since then, in the last year, 0:07:18.396 --> 0:07:22.516 Chicago has seen about ten thousand refugees come to the city, 0:07:23.156 --> 0:07:28.196 mostly from Central America and South America, you know, via 0:07:28.596 --> 0:07:33.556 Mexico and then Texas, and it's been kind of crazy 0:07:33.596 --> 0:07:36.716 in Chicago. So in the city, we've put up these 0:07:36.716 --> 0:07:40.756 emergency shelters. They've been set up there. There are hundreds 0:07:40.796 --> 0:07:44.356 of families who are sleeping in Chicago police stations on 0:07:44.396 --> 0:07:47.956 the floor and you know, as if the police are 0:07:47.996 --> 0:07:50.516 the ones who were prepared to take care of people. 0:07:51.796 --> 0:07:54.076 There was this debate in the city council last week 0:07:54.116 --> 0:07:57.716 about another fifty one million dollars going to care for 0:07:57.796 --> 0:08:01.876 these people, and there's been all kinds of backlash that 0:08:01.956 --> 0:08:07.756 this has created, especially in black communities and historically under 0:08:07.796 --> 0:08:11.356 resource communities who worried about these resources now going to 0:08:11.556 --> 0:08:14.876 new arrivals, which is sort of maybe exactly what the 0:08:14.916 --> 0:08:18.356 Texas governor hope would happen. So all of this is 0:08:18.396 --> 0:08:22.516 going on, it's incredibly visible and visceral here in Chicago. 0:08:22.956 --> 0:08:26.036 And then so here's my question, what is going on 0:08:26.236 --> 0:08:30.876 nationally that's creating the situation here, this crisis? What are 0:08:30.916 --> 0:08:32.556 the policies that are happening. 0:08:32.556 --> 0:08:36.196 The crisises Our communities are sort of going through the 0:08:37.236 --> 0:08:42.276 aftermath of COVID nineteen and so many businesses like not working, 0:08:42.636 --> 0:08:46.316 and then you dump all these immigrants with no process, 0:08:47.516 --> 0:08:51.996 no structure. And what's interesting is this is what I've 0:08:52.036 --> 0:08:55.036 been dealing with at the border for the last twenty years. 0:08:55.276 --> 0:08:57.476 This is what activists have been dealing with at the 0:08:57.476 --> 0:09:03.356 border from the beginning, except that with these buses, they 0:09:03.436 --> 0:09:06.636 actually lied to people and they just put them in 0:09:06.676 --> 0:09:08.596 buses like they did with Martha's Vineyard. 0:09:08.596 --> 0:09:09.556 They're like, you're to go to. 0:09:09.476 --> 0:09:11.596 New York or we're going to have resources for you. 0:09:12.316 --> 0:09:18.756 And unlike your responsible shelters in borders, make sure that 0:09:18.836 --> 0:09:22.596 whoever people migrating and that have successfully crossed will make 0:09:22.636 --> 0:09:25.396 it to a family member, a cousin, someone they know 0:09:25.516 --> 0:09:28.476 that can help them in this situation. They just grab 0:09:28.516 --> 0:09:31.756 people and dump them in Colorado. They did that last 0:09:31.876 --> 0:09:35.836 last week in uh in Chicago and in these these 0:09:36.556 --> 0:09:41.156 very you know, or progressive cities in order to really 0:09:42.036 --> 0:09:44.956 pin us against each other, which is the whole that's 0:09:44.956 --> 0:09:49.396 the whole point. Unfortunately, the Immigration Naturalization Act, which was 0:09:49.436 --> 0:09:51.876 drafted in the sixties, has not changed. 0:09:52.276 --> 0:09:55.676 Our policies have not changed. And while policy. 0:09:55.196 --> 0:09:59.196 Remains obviously in like Congress, there's a lot of leeway 0:09:59.596 --> 0:10:01.876 for for the president. 0:10:02.156 --> 0:10:06.116 Yeah yeah, So like while Congress is fighting over new legislation, 0:10:06.836 --> 0:10:09.836 who's ever president can take their our own actions and 0:10:09.876 --> 0:10:12.876 set some policy. So the situation on the ground feels 0:10:12.916 --> 0:10:15.476 like it's always shifting and it's confusing. 0:10:15.756 --> 0:10:20.316 Correct, And so with each presidency you have like new rules, 0:10:20.396 --> 0:10:24.636 new regulations that completely shift the way that we welcome people. 0:10:25.036 --> 0:10:29.236 And in between these two you have international laws, like 0:10:29.316 --> 0:10:32.476 asylum laws that have been enacted. We are supposed to 0:10:32.556 --> 0:10:36.716 welcome immigrants that cross and are in American soil, whether 0:10:36.796 --> 0:10:40.156 through the river or through the bridge. And so there's 0:10:40.276 --> 0:10:44.716 nothing new here except that they're just pushing our cities 0:10:45.196 --> 0:10:48.396 and our resources and creating and causing chaos. 0:10:50.076 --> 0:10:52.636 Nothing you here, yeah, yeah, I want to jump in 0:10:52.676 --> 0:10:56.036 on this because a couple of quick points. One, I 0:10:56.116 --> 0:11:01.156 have a relative, a cousin, who works for the Boston 0:11:01.196 --> 0:11:04.996 Medical Center, and she was sending me texts about how 0:11:05.036 --> 0:11:09.756 many asylum seekers were staying in various parts of the hospital. 0:11:09.876 --> 0:11:13.396 I think Ben's question raises the question as to sharing 0:11:13.436 --> 0:11:17.796 the burden of our failed immigration policies from red states 0:11:17.796 --> 0:11:21.076 to blue states, from the border to blue cities. And 0:11:21.356 --> 0:11:24.836 the Boston City administration, which is liberal, you know, was 0:11:24.916 --> 0:11:27.876 like blaming the state for not having a plan, and 0:11:27.916 --> 0:11:30.356 the state was putting it on the hospital to deal 0:11:30.396 --> 0:11:33.676 with it, and so no one was taking ownership of 0:11:33.796 --> 0:11:37.516 like the crisis, the humanitarian crisis that exists. 0:11:37.956 --> 0:11:42.356 Absolutely, And I want to say, like, obviously this is 0:11:43.076 --> 0:11:46.716 creating a crisis, but this is the aftermath of Trump's 0:11:46.796 --> 0:11:50.836 policies and sort of bottlenecking everyone at the border. 0:11:50.436 --> 0:11:52.316 That now are you talking about two? 0:11:52.676 --> 0:11:53.636 Yeah, yeah, exactly. 0:11:53.676 --> 0:11:56.156 We'd love to hear a little bit more about that. Yeah. 0:11:56.476 --> 0:11:59.396 So Title forty two was enacted right in March of 0:11:59.396 --> 0:12:04.636 twenty twenty, and it was a bullshit policy, basically saying 0:12:04.636 --> 0:12:06.556 nobody can be allowed in because they're going to bring 0:12:06.596 --> 0:12:08.636 like a terrible disease. 0:12:08.876 --> 0:12:11.676 So everyone has this was COVID. This is March twenty 0:12:11.716 --> 0:12:15.876 twenty a COVID policy. This was basically using the COVID 0:12:15.916 --> 0:12:20.836 pandemic as an excuse to build on Trump's family separation policy, 0:12:20.836 --> 0:12:23.596 which really was really about self deportation. Right, We're going 0:12:23.636 --> 0:12:25.796 to scare the hell out of immigrants. We're going to 0:12:25.996 --> 0:12:28.476 tear their families apart so they don't even think about 0:12:28.516 --> 0:12:31.156 coming to the United States. And then Title forty two 0:12:31.196 --> 0:12:34.996 is initiated during COVID to say and don't bring this disease. 0:12:34.636 --> 0:12:40.196 With you exactly exactly, you know, with Title forty two, 0:12:40.756 --> 0:12:44.396 then so much more happened in the sense that now 0:12:44.436 --> 0:12:46.916 people are stuck. Now we don't have farmers, now we 0:12:46.956 --> 0:12:50.196 don't have enough people working in like the kitchens, because 0:12:50.196 --> 0:12:53.116 this is the normal flow of people north and of 0:12:53.156 --> 0:12:58.116 reunifying with your families. So then Biden tried to shut 0:12:58.156 --> 0:13:01.516 down Title forty two and bring it down, which was 0:13:01.556 --> 0:13:06.556 one of his promises during his elections. Right, it is 0:13:06.596 --> 0:13:08.716 a humanitarian crisis, I mean it continues. 0:13:09.196 --> 0:13:09.916 This is sort of the. 0:13:09.916 --> 0:13:14.876 Aftermath where now Biden was trying to lift it, and 0:13:14.916 --> 0:13:19.316 then the attorney generals from certain states got together and said, actually, no, 0:13:19.516 --> 0:13:22.076 we think that Title forty two should remain, and it 0:13:22.196 --> 0:13:27.076 ended up in the Supreme Court. However, with Biden then 0:13:27.156 --> 0:13:31.436 declaring that COVID, you know, is no longer a crisis, 0:13:31.476 --> 0:13:34.276 a health crisis in our country, that made the issue 0:13:34.276 --> 0:13:37.356 moot for the Supreme Court to review. So right now 0:13:38.316 --> 0:13:40.636 Title forty two is no longer you know. It was 0:13:40.716 --> 0:13:42.636 lifted May eleventh, and so there. 0:13:42.556 --> 0:13:44.516 Was complete chaos at the border. 0:13:44.276 --> 0:13:46.876 Because now we're going to have Title eight, which is 0:13:46.916 --> 0:13:49.276 like sort of a new old policy but with a 0:13:49.316 --> 0:13:54.676 lot more with a lot more sort of issues. But 0:13:55.476 --> 0:13:59.556 asylum law allows people to claim asylum regardless of where 0:13:59.636 --> 0:14:03.756 they enter, and this new policy is preventing people from 0:14:03.796 --> 0:14:06.956 coming in through the river. They will be deported and 0:14:06.996 --> 0:14:09.396 they will be not allowed to come into the country 0:14:09.436 --> 0:14:10.716 for at least five years. 0:14:11.516 --> 0:14:12.556 So people are scared. 0:14:12.596 --> 0:14:16.716 I was at the border two weeks ago, and you know, 0:14:16.756 --> 0:14:19.036 it feels the same as it did in the last 0:14:19.036 --> 0:14:22.636 two years. I mean, same chaos, but I'm seeing more 0:14:22.716 --> 0:14:26.876 Chinese immigrants, more Russian immigrants. 0:14:26.716 --> 0:14:29.356 Coming through Mexico, the border with Mexico. 0:14:29.116 --> 0:14:31.756 Through the border of Mexico because now, you know, and 0:14:31.796 --> 0:14:33.756 I think all of this ties in with the fact 0:14:33.836 --> 0:14:36.756 that we are not connecting the climate crisis with immigration. 0:14:37.476 --> 0:14:41.516 And I have been seeing, you know, last in December, 0:14:42.436 --> 0:14:44.916 I took we spent Christmas as a family at the 0:14:44.956 --> 0:14:49.116 border and we met a lot of Ecuadorian indigenous people, 0:14:49.636 --> 0:14:52.476 and like when indigenous people migrate, you know, I'm like, 0:14:52.756 --> 0:14:55.396 why are you coming here? You have so much ancestral knowledge, 0:14:55.436 --> 0:14:58.916 and unless it's like political persecution, like why are you here? 0:14:59.276 --> 0:15:01.476 You're working at Walmart is just not going to do 0:15:01.596 --> 0:15:07.436 it for you. And they had a flood last year 0:15:07.996 --> 0:15:12.756 that destroyed huge indigenous region and now there's no agriculture 0:15:12.916 --> 0:15:16.556 and there's no tourism and there's nothing. So they're migrating 0:15:16.596 --> 0:15:20.636 north to whoever family member lives up in the north 0:15:20.716 --> 0:15:22.836 so that they can find a way to live. 0:15:23.836 --> 0:15:26.116 I love that you had that simple question of why 0:15:26.236 --> 0:15:28.196 why you know, why come? If you know it's so 0:15:28.236 --> 0:15:32.676 difficult to hear people's stories, just to clarify, to try 0:15:32.716 --> 0:15:35.956 to understand. So Biden's policy, which is called Title eight, 0:15:36.036 --> 0:15:39.636 which is not a new policy. The difference I think 0:15:39.636 --> 0:15:42.876 I'm understanding is that it's more punitive. Is that supposed 0:15:42.876 --> 0:15:44.396 to be a deterrent to others stories? 0:15:44.396 --> 0:15:46.276 It's supposed to be a deterrent, and that's only for 0:15:46.356 --> 0:15:49.596 people crossing in the river. And the other big point 0:15:49.756 --> 0:15:54.636 is that anybody that is seeking asylum has and if 0:15:54.676 --> 0:15:57.276 they didn't come from Mexico, are going to have to 0:15:57.316 --> 0:16:00.836 prove that they seek the asylum somewhere along. 0:16:00.516 --> 0:16:03.196 The journey prior to entering the US. 0:16:03.236 --> 0:16:05.876 So like if you come from Columbia, like you better 0:16:05.956 --> 0:16:09.556 look for asylum in Panama, Atemala, you know all of 0:16:09.596 --> 0:16:12.236 these other countries that you're going to cross through before 0:16:12.276 --> 0:16:14.636 you come to the US. And that's not what asylum 0:16:14.716 --> 0:16:17.316 lies about. That's going to be challenged. 0:16:17.956 --> 0:16:21.316 That's really clarifying. And I also think it's important to 0:16:21.396 --> 0:16:24.516 note because the title a policy was already in place 0:16:24.596 --> 0:16:29.676 in the Obama administration at a time when Obama was 0:16:29.716 --> 0:16:34.036 sort of the first post George Bush president to toughen 0:16:34.156 --> 0:16:39.076 up border patrol and make a kind of political stand 0:16:39.276 --> 0:16:42.676 on excluding people who had been here a long time 0:16:42.956 --> 0:16:45.836 but for those who were young people in college, the 0:16:45.876 --> 0:16:48.996 so called dreamers, and so Obama ended up with the 0:16:49.076 --> 0:16:52.836 nickname to Porter in Chief precisely because his own border 0:16:52.836 --> 0:17:00.996 policies were considered to some degree unfair, inhumane, and ratcheting 0:17:01.076 --> 0:17:05.596 up this notion that these people are unwelcome Carolina. Obviously, 0:17:05.676 --> 0:17:11.276 this is a mess. Policy wise, it's complicated. It's easy 0:17:11.316 --> 0:17:13.716 to point fingers at the Trump administration for most people 0:17:13.716 --> 0:17:16.236 who are listening to this show. But as I just 0:17:16.276 --> 0:17:18.996 pointed out, this is a problem. As you've continually said, 0:17:18.996 --> 0:17:21.836 that is an old problem, and we haven't done much 0:17:21.876 --> 0:17:23.916 to fix it. So when we come back from the break, 0:17:23.956 --> 0:17:26.396 we're going to talk about what laws and policies need 0:17:26.476 --> 0:17:42.116 to change in order to fix this mess. So listen. 0:17:42.836 --> 0:17:46.876 America has often beat its chest as the most exceptional 0:17:46.916 --> 0:17:50.116 place on Earth, and you'll often hear talking points from 0:17:50.116 --> 0:17:53.276 conservatives and Republicans that if it's so bad in America, 0:17:53.276 --> 0:17:57.236 according to racial justice and social justice advocates, why do 0:17:57.356 --> 0:18:03.316 immigrants keep coming? And I'm taken with the contradictions, to 0:18:03.396 --> 0:18:07.756 be sure, but the truth is America has always exploited 0:18:07.796 --> 0:18:11.396 immigrants for economic game. The trade off here is that 0:18:11.556 --> 0:18:13.756 you can come to this country if you're willing to 0:18:13.836 --> 0:18:17.836 do the lowest, most dangerous, and least paid kind of 0:18:17.876 --> 0:18:20.516 work in this country. And so the narrative of a 0:18:20.636 --> 0:18:23.956 nation of immigrants is the narrative of poor people coming 0:18:23.996 --> 0:18:26.916 here in search of opportunity in search of their pot 0:18:26.916 --> 0:18:29.516 of gold, only to find that they're doing the scut 0:18:29.516 --> 0:18:32.356 work in this country. And it's also a country that's 0:18:32.356 --> 0:18:36.556 had incredible xenophobia, a country that has had nativist political 0:18:36.556 --> 0:18:39.636 movements that go back to the eighteen hundreds, you know, 0:18:39.716 --> 0:18:43.516 shortly after the country was founded. So let's talk about 0:18:43.596 --> 0:18:47.436 Congress and its failure to not pass new immigration laws. 0:18:47.436 --> 0:18:50.676 I mean, what is the conversation among immigrant advocates about 0:18:50.676 --> 0:18:51.876 solving that problem. 0:18:53.596 --> 0:18:56.436 I mean, I think you can't sort of dive into 0:18:56.516 --> 0:19:01.516 the solution without understanding that immigration policy was enacted in 0:19:01.556 --> 0:19:05.796 the sixties, right, you know, after the Second World War. 0:19:07.036 --> 0:19:09.276 All our men were gone, so we were like, oh it, 0:19:09.516 --> 0:19:12.316 no one's garden, no one's doing the agricultural stuff. We 0:19:12.796 --> 0:19:14.996 need our stuff, So okay, I guess let's do the kids. 0:19:15.036 --> 0:19:17.996 And also, oh wait, there's the Mexican people can come 0:19:18.036 --> 0:19:20.836 and like harvest for us. And guess what they're asking 0:19:20.876 --> 0:19:24.316 for way less money than what other people are asking for. 0:19:24.716 --> 0:19:28.036 And so we sort of create this reliance and dependency 0:19:28.116 --> 0:19:29.636 on seasonal workers. 0:19:29.956 --> 0:19:31.116 You know, they don't want to be here. 0:19:31.316 --> 0:19:33.236 I think that's sort of one thing that I try 0:19:33.276 --> 0:19:35.876 to tell people, and it's like I wanted to be 0:19:35.916 --> 0:19:38.996 in my country, and I wanted to be with my people, 0:19:39.036 --> 0:19:40.516 with my flavor, with my things. 0:19:40.636 --> 0:19:41.356 I didn't have to. 0:19:41.476 --> 0:19:43.836 I didn't want to go through this entire transformation of 0:19:43.836 --> 0:19:46.556 fitting in and the chameleon and sort of code switching 0:19:46.596 --> 0:19:47.756 and language barriers. 0:19:48.356 --> 0:19:49.716 But it's forced. 0:19:49.396 --> 0:19:52.236 Migration, right, like you're forced because that's your only option. 0:19:52.356 --> 0:19:55.756 And so in this situation we create this dependency. But 0:19:55.876 --> 0:19:58.316 the border is sort of fluid, right. People can come in, 0:19:58.396 --> 0:20:03.916 they work, they leave. And then in the eighties we said, 0:20:03.956 --> 0:20:06.836 you know enough we need We're not doing this. We're 0:20:06.876 --> 0:20:10.396 going to create a three and ten nearbars And so 0:20:10.676 --> 0:20:13.316 if you stay in this country with no documentation for 0:20:13.356 --> 0:20:16.596 more than half a year, you are going to the 0:20:16.596 --> 0:20:18.756 moment that you step out of the country, you're not 0:20:18.836 --> 0:20:21.076 going to be allowed back in for three years. If 0:20:21.116 --> 0:20:23.636 you stay for longer than one year, you can come 0:20:23.676 --> 0:20:27.276 back for ten years. And so that caused a huge 0:20:27.316 --> 0:20:29.756 problem for people because they were you know, they were 0:20:29.796 --> 0:20:32.836 investing in their communities, making the money and building a 0:20:32.916 --> 0:20:35.636 house at Ranchito, you know, and their count in their 0:20:35.676 --> 0:20:37.316 country and in their place. 0:20:37.556 --> 0:20:38.916 And they had to choose. 0:20:39.196 --> 0:20:41.796 So a lot of separation happened there where you know, 0:20:42.076 --> 0:20:44.756 moms and dads or dads came and they started working, 0:20:44.876 --> 0:20:49.796 sending money back home. And so when that that created 0:20:49.796 --> 0:20:52.796 a that changed the dynamic because there was no longer 0:20:52.836 --> 0:20:53.956 this movement. 0:20:53.996 --> 0:20:57.836 Across right, Carolina, just I want to understand this clearly 0:20:58.196 --> 0:21:00.916 when you're describing the policy in the nineteen eighties, that 0:21:00.996 --> 0:21:04.756 changed what came before it, and was what came before 0:21:04.796 --> 0:21:07.636 is sustainable. If things had not changed in the nineteen eighties, 0:21:07.676 --> 0:21:09.876 we had something that was more viable, more humane. 0:21:10.996 --> 0:21:13.836 I don't know if it was necessarily viable, but I 0:21:13.876 --> 0:21:18.116 do think that it was more human because the issue 0:21:18.116 --> 0:21:21.716 you have now is amongst those twelve million undocumented people 0:21:21.836 --> 0:21:25.396 in the US are people who entered through the river 0:21:25.876 --> 0:21:28.316 we call them ewis entering without inspection. 0:21:28.916 --> 0:21:30.756 So they entered, they maybe never had. 0:21:30.636 --> 0:21:34.476 A passport, they stayed here, and then now they married 0:21:34.516 --> 0:21:37.636 a US citizen. But because they entered without being inspected 0:21:37.636 --> 0:21:41.196 in a passport, in a stamp, they can't adjust unless 0:21:41.236 --> 0:21:44.116 they go back to their country and seek a waiver 0:21:44.516 --> 0:21:47.156 of like a pardon. If they say you're not allowed in, 0:21:47.196 --> 0:21:49.596 you're not allowed in. And so you have all of 0:21:49.636 --> 0:21:53.596 these people that are married to US citizens with US 0:21:53.636 --> 0:21:57.516 citizen children that are in limbo that can't you know, 0:21:57.556 --> 0:22:00.236 are paying their taxes because like immigrants pay billions of 0:22:00.276 --> 0:22:03.676 dollars in taxes, there's literally no way for them to 0:22:03.716 --> 0:22:06.796 make a line and become legal, Like there's no line, 0:22:06.836 --> 0:22:10.836 there's no viable visas, no viable route for them to 0:22:10.916 --> 0:22:11.876 come into the country. 0:22:12.196 --> 0:22:14.996 So it's a failure. It's a huge failure. 0:22:15.036 --> 0:22:20.996 And unfortunately it's what is a political pawn for every election. 0:22:21.436 --> 0:22:22.996 You know, they start talking. 0:22:22.716 --> 0:22:26.036 About caravans, they start talking about their invading our country, 0:22:26.476 --> 0:22:29.476 and so it's and in reality they are keeping our 0:22:29.476 --> 0:22:32.916 economy going because the avocado that you and I get 0:22:32.996 --> 0:22:36.876 in the supermarket that we paid two bucks for actually 0:22:36.916 --> 0:22:40.116 costs eight dollars. If you're going to humanize and pay 0:22:40.196 --> 0:22:43.596 labor workers what they deserve, yeah, nobody wants that. 0:22:44.076 --> 0:22:47.196 Well, you know, you know it is so both rich 0:22:47.556 --> 0:22:54.076 and complicated about this conversation is how much the problem 0:22:54.156 --> 0:22:56.876 that you describe been talking about this change in the 0:22:56.956 --> 0:23:01.076 nineteen eighties. You know, what happened before that was really 0:23:01.676 --> 0:23:05.156 trusting the agency of people whose own self interest was 0:23:05.196 --> 0:23:08.036 still back home, which is to say they came to 0:23:08.156 --> 0:23:11.276 work to to remit payments back to their families to 0:23:11.316 --> 0:23:15.276 build what they needed back home, and of course occasionally 0:23:15.316 --> 0:23:18.876 those people made lives for themselves here. Of course, some 0:23:18.916 --> 0:23:20.996