1 00:00:14,076 --> 00:00:30,836 Speaker 1: Push it. I'm Khalide Jubon Mohammad. 2 00:00:31,396 --> 00:00:33,836 Speaker 2: I'm Ben Austen. We are two best. 3 00:00:33,516 --> 00:00:36,436 Speaker 1: Friends, one African American. 4 00:00:36,636 --> 00:00:37,836 Speaker 2: One white Caucasian. 5 00:00:39,276 --> 00:00:42,396 Speaker 3: I'm a historian and I'm a journalist. And this is 6 00:00:42,436 --> 00:00:44,356 Speaker 3: some of my best friends are. 7 00:00:44,676 --> 00:00:46,556 Speaker 2: You know, like I'm not a racist, some of my 8 00:00:46,636 --> 00:00:51,116 Speaker 2: best friends are immigrants. In this show, we wrestle with 9 00:00:51,156 --> 00:00:52,316 Speaker 2: the challenges. 10 00:00:52,156 --> 00:00:54,836 Speaker 3: And the absurdities of a deeply. 11 00:00:54,476 --> 00:00:56,076 Speaker 2: Divided and unequal country. 12 00:00:56,836 --> 00:01:00,076 Speaker 3: And today we're going to talk about immigration. It is 13 00:01:00,196 --> 00:01:04,276 Speaker 3: an ongoing humanitarian crisis. But we have someone on the 14 00:01:04,276 --> 00:01:07,396 Speaker 3: show today who is going to help us understand what 15 00:01:07,556 --> 00:01:10,716 Speaker 3: is happening at the border, in Chicago. 16 00:01:10,476 --> 00:01:12,236 Speaker 1: And New York, all over the. 17 00:01:12,116 --> 00:01:14,596 Speaker 3: Place, and help us figure out how to do something 18 00:01:14,636 --> 00:01:14,996 Speaker 3: about it. 19 00:01:15,556 --> 00:01:19,876 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, we are talking to Carolina Rubio mcwright. She's 20 00:01:19,916 --> 00:01:24,356 Speaker 2: an immigration lawyer, artist, and activist fighting for immigrant rights. 21 00:01:25,076 --> 00:01:28,476 Speaker 2: Carolina immigrated to the US from Bogata, Columbia when she 22 00:01:28,596 --> 00:01:31,996 Speaker 2: was nineteen, and really she's committed her whole life to 23 00:01:32,316 --> 00:01:35,436 Speaker 2: improving the system. She's going to talk to us about 24 00:01:35,556 --> 00:01:40,156 Speaker 2: current immigration policies and share some innovative ways that we 25 00:01:40,276 --> 00:01:43,516 Speaker 2: can all lend a hand in this crisis. Khalil. That's right, 26 00:01:43,556 --> 00:01:44,796 Speaker 2: So let's get to this interview. 27 00:01:44,876 --> 00:01:57,356 Speaker 3: Let's do it. Carolina Rubio mcwright. What an amazing name 28 00:01:57,436 --> 00:02:00,716 Speaker 3: and an amazing person. Welcome to some of my best friends. 29 00:02:00,876 --> 00:02:02,316 Speaker 3: I'm so excited to have you on the show. 30 00:02:03,476 --> 00:02:05,436 Speaker 4: Thank you so much. Killy, I'm so excited. 31 00:02:05,676 --> 00:02:08,156 Speaker 5: I've always been a big fan and very excited to 32 00:02:08,196 --> 00:02:09,036 Speaker 5: finally meet Ben. 33 00:02:10,316 --> 00:02:12,316 Speaker 2: That's wonderful. I'm excited to meet you too. 34 00:02:12,556 --> 00:02:13,036 Speaker 3: That's right. 35 00:02:13,076 --> 00:02:13,396 Speaker 1: We love. 36 00:02:13,556 --> 00:02:15,836 Speaker 3: We love when our guests are not only among our 37 00:02:15,836 --> 00:02:19,156 Speaker 3: best friends, but also our listeners to the show. You 38 00:02:19,356 --> 00:02:24,196 Speaker 3: and my wife are big running buddies, like close friends, 39 00:02:24,556 --> 00:02:26,996 Speaker 3: and our family spend a lot of time together. But 40 00:02:27,076 --> 00:02:31,036 Speaker 3: this is a new relationship. So so here's my confession. 41 00:02:31,636 --> 00:02:35,436 Speaker 3: On one of the first runs that I joined with 42 00:02:35,556 --> 00:02:38,996 Speaker 3: this group, I meet you and you know, you have 43 00:02:39,116 --> 00:02:41,756 Speaker 3: all this running gear on, like this vest and this 44 00:02:41,916 --> 00:02:44,156 Speaker 3: water pack, and even to this day, I don't on 45 00:02:44,156 --> 00:02:46,516 Speaker 3: one of those fancy water packs. But here's the thing. 46 00:02:48,236 --> 00:02:51,116 Speaker 3: We were doing like some speed work and I was like, 47 00:02:51,236 --> 00:02:54,356 Speaker 3: she's snow as shit, Like in my head, that's what 48 00:02:54,476 --> 00:02:55,076 Speaker 3: I was thinking. 49 00:02:58,796 --> 00:03:00,956 Speaker 2: This is where I have to apologize for my friends. 50 00:03:03,116 --> 00:03:07,276 Speaker 3: So here's the thing, though, here's the thing, Carolina, I 51 00:03:07,436 --> 00:03:11,116 Speaker 3: had no idea at the time that you are a 52 00:03:11,156 --> 00:03:17,076 Speaker 3: fucking badass ultra marathon or and that like literally you 53 00:03:17,116 --> 00:03:20,636 Speaker 3: are right now training for a seventy mile race somewhere 54 00:03:20,636 --> 00:03:24,436 Speaker 3: in the world, somewhere with elevations and one hundred degree temperatures, 55 00:03:24,876 --> 00:03:27,876 Speaker 3: and so I'm like, holy smoke. So I learned this later, 56 00:03:27,916 --> 00:03:30,676 Speaker 3: I was like, oh man, did I get that wrong? 57 00:03:31,476 --> 00:03:31,956 Speaker 3: I love it. 58 00:03:31,996 --> 00:03:36,436 Speaker 5: I'm glad that you thought I was so slow. And 59 00:03:37,556 --> 00:03:39,596 Speaker 5: one day, you know, maybe I'll gift you a vest 60 00:03:39,676 --> 00:03:42,076 Speaker 5: so you can join me in these like longer excursions 61 00:03:42,116 --> 00:03:42,716 Speaker 5: in the woods. 62 00:03:43,356 --> 00:03:43,796 Speaker 3: That's right. 63 00:03:43,836 --> 00:03:47,716 Speaker 2: Wow, that's right, Carolina. I'm excited to learn more from 64 00:03:47,756 --> 00:03:52,196 Speaker 2: you about US immigration issues and what feels like a 65 00:03:52,236 --> 00:03:55,956 Speaker 2: crisis and maybe it's a perpetual crisis. And maybe a 66 00:03:55,956 --> 00:03:59,356 Speaker 2: way to start is could you just describe what your 67 00:03:59,396 --> 00:04:00,476 Speaker 2: work is on immigration. 68 00:04:02,036 --> 00:04:05,036 Speaker 5: Yeah, so it's it's been kind of a long journey, 69 00:04:05,116 --> 00:04:09,476 Speaker 5: and it really starts from being an immigrant myself here 70 00:04:09,516 --> 00:04:12,596 Speaker 5: when I was nineteen, and so a lot of where 71 00:04:12,596 --> 00:04:15,836 Speaker 5: I am right now is dictated by that very long journey. 72 00:04:16,596 --> 00:04:19,796 Speaker 5: I've created sort of a place where I call the Estuary, 73 00:04:20,356 --> 00:04:23,716 Speaker 5: which is a mix of law and art, which is 74 00:04:23,916 --> 00:04:27,396 Speaker 5: what I do. I do a lot of activism depending 75 00:04:27,396 --> 00:04:30,596 Speaker 5: on who's in power. I went through policy, I did 76 00:04:30,796 --> 00:04:34,116 Speaker 5: capital punishment cases. I've done a lot of different different 77 00:04:34,156 --> 00:04:38,556 Speaker 5: pieces of work connected to immigration always, but my focus 78 00:04:38,676 --> 00:04:41,396 Speaker 5: is really in producing resources and sort of staying in 79 00:04:41,436 --> 00:04:44,596 Speaker 5: this place of the imagination where we can think of 80 00:04:44,756 --> 00:04:49,076 Speaker 5: new options and routes and ways for immigration to occur 81 00:04:49,116 --> 00:04:53,276 Speaker 5: in the world. And so currently I produce resources. I 82 00:04:53,316 --> 00:04:57,436 Speaker 5: run a nonprofit called Touching Land. I don't represent people 83 00:04:58,036 --> 00:05:02,276 Speaker 5: in courts anymore. I do only if I'm working inside 84 00:05:02,276 --> 00:05:05,116 Speaker 5: a detention center, and I usually only do that when 85 00:05:05,356 --> 00:05:08,316 Speaker 5: there's a crisis, which seems to happen like a lot 86 00:05:08,316 --> 00:05:10,716 Speaker 5: in this country far as immigration, if we're not like 87 00:05:10,876 --> 00:05:15,676 Speaker 5: using it as a pond for political gains and so so. Yeah, 88 00:05:15,716 --> 00:05:18,996 Speaker 5: So I created this nonprofit where I create ways in 89 00:05:19,036 --> 00:05:23,716 Speaker 5: which people can learn their rights in somatic ways, whether 90 00:05:23,796 --> 00:05:29,956 Speaker 5: it's through sound, through singing, through clay, through all sorts 91 00:05:29,996 --> 00:05:34,636 Speaker 5: of different ways, so that the information stays in their bodies, 92 00:05:34,756 --> 00:05:38,836 Speaker 5: so that it's not just like completely inaccessible words that 93 00:05:38,876 --> 00:05:40,196 Speaker 5: are passing through their heads. 94 00:05:40,676 --> 00:05:43,476 Speaker 3: Two things quickly, I love the metaphor of an estuary 95 00:05:43,676 --> 00:05:47,396 Speaker 3: I'm thinking of like this swirl of water and it 96 00:05:47,516 --> 00:05:51,676 Speaker 3: just sort of sits there. That's beautiful. And then this 97 00:05:51,836 --> 00:05:55,836 Speaker 3: notion of like art and things that stay in your 98 00:05:55,876 --> 00:05:58,836 Speaker 3: body as opposed to words that just pass over and through. 99 00:05:58,876 --> 00:06:01,356 Speaker 3: You really, really, really beautifully said. 100 00:06:02,436 --> 00:06:06,756 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think we are so brainy, you know, and 101 00:06:06,796 --> 00:06:09,236 Speaker 5: we're stuck in the brain and in our phones and 102 00:06:09,396 --> 00:06:12,396 Speaker 5: sort of we're in bodies for a reason. Otherwise we'd 103 00:06:12,436 --> 00:06:15,916 Speaker 5: be like flying brains, right And to me being in 104 00:06:15,956 --> 00:06:17,716 Speaker 5: the body, I mean, that's why I run so much. 105 00:06:17,796 --> 00:06:19,956 Speaker 5: It's the way that I feel freedom in my body 106 00:06:20,356 --> 00:06:23,436 Speaker 5: when I live in structures of oppression that don't like 107 00:06:23,516 --> 00:06:25,316 Speaker 5: the way I sound, the way I look, or the 108 00:06:25,316 --> 00:06:26,796 Speaker 5: way I move the way I think. 109 00:06:27,876 --> 00:06:31,636 Speaker 2: Carolyn, I want to talk about try to even understand 110 00:06:31,716 --> 00:06:33,596 Speaker 2: what's happening in the country right now, even on a 111 00:06:33,636 --> 00:06:37,796 Speaker 2: policy level, And a way maybe to frame our conversation 112 00:06:38,636 --> 00:06:41,156 Speaker 2: is to describe what's going on in Chicago right now, 113 00:06:41,196 --> 00:06:42,796 Speaker 2: which is where I live. I know you guys are 114 00:06:42,836 --> 00:06:47,196 Speaker 2: in the suburbs in New Jersey, and to use to 115 00:06:47,316 --> 00:06:50,316 Speaker 2: use Chicago as a way to try to understand the 116 00:06:50,316 --> 00:06:53,076 Speaker 2: bigger issues nationally. And so you might already know this 117 00:06:53,236 --> 00:06:57,996 Speaker 2: but last August, the Texas governor Greg Abbott, he sent 118 00:06:58,036 --> 00:07:01,436 Speaker 2: a first bus load of migrants to Chicago as a 119 00:07:01,516 --> 00:07:04,596 Speaker 2: kind of political stunt, using human beings as a political 120 00:07:04,636 --> 00:07:07,676 Speaker 2: tool and you know, making more liberal parts of the 121 00:07:07,716 --> 00:07:10,796 Speaker 2: country have to deal with what places on the border 122 00:07:11,236 --> 00:07:14,436 Speaker 2: have been grappling with, and in a lot of ways, 123 00:07:14,476 --> 00:07:17,836 Speaker 2: his stunt has worked. So since then, in the last year, 124 00:07:18,396 --> 00:07:22,516 Speaker 2: Chicago has seen about ten thousand refugees come to the city, 125 00:07:23,156 --> 00:07:28,196 Speaker 2: mostly from Central America and South America, you know, via 126 00:07:28,596 --> 00:07:33,556 Speaker 2: Mexico and then Texas, and it's been kind of crazy 127 00:07:33,596 --> 00:07:36,716 Speaker 2: in Chicago. So in the city, we've put up these 128 00:07:36,716 --> 00:07:40,756 Speaker 2: emergency shelters. They've been set up there. There are hundreds 129 00:07:40,796 --> 00:07:44,356 Speaker 2: of families who are sleeping in Chicago police stations on 130 00:07:44,396 --> 00:07:47,956 Speaker 2: the floor and you know, as if the police are 131 00:07:47,996 --> 00:07:50,516 Speaker 2: the ones who were prepared to take care of people. 132 00:07:51,796 --> 00:07:54,076 Speaker 2: There was this debate in the city council last week 133 00:07:54,116 --> 00:07:57,716 Speaker 2: about another fifty one million dollars going to care for 134 00:07:57,796 --> 00:08:01,876 Speaker 2: these people, and there's been all kinds of backlash that 135 00:08:01,956 --> 00:08:07,756 Speaker 2: this has created, especially in black communities and historically under 136 00:08:07,796 --> 00:08:11,356 Speaker 2: resource communities who worried about these resources now going to 137 00:08:11,556 --> 00:08:14,876 Speaker 2: new arrivals, which is sort of maybe exactly what the 138 00:08:14,916 --> 00:08:18,356 Speaker 2: Texas governor hope would happen. So all of this is 139 00:08:18,396 --> 00:08:22,516 Speaker 2: going on, it's incredibly visible and visceral here in Chicago. 140 00:08:22,956 --> 00:08:26,036 Speaker 2: And then so here's my question, what is going on 141 00:08:26,236 --> 00:08:30,876 Speaker 2: nationally that's creating the situation here, this crisis? What are 142 00:08:30,916 --> 00:08:32,556 Speaker 2: the policies that are happening. 143 00:08:32,556 --> 00:08:36,196 Speaker 5: The crisises Our communities are sort of going through the 144 00:08:37,236 --> 00:08:42,276 Speaker 5: aftermath of COVID nineteen and so many businesses like not working, 145 00:08:42,636 --> 00:08:46,316 Speaker 5: and then you dump all these immigrants with no process, 146 00:08:47,516 --> 00:08:51,996 Speaker 5: no structure. And what's interesting is this is what I've 147 00:08:52,036 --> 00:08:55,036 Speaker 5: been dealing with at the border for the last twenty years. 148 00:08:55,276 --> 00:08:57,476 Speaker 5: This is what activists have been dealing with at the 149 00:08:57,476 --> 00:09:03,356 Speaker 5: border from the beginning, except that with these buses, they 150 00:09:03,436 --> 00:09:06,636 Speaker 5: actually lied to people and they just put them in 151 00:09:06,676 --> 00:09:08,596 Speaker 5: buses like they did with Martha's Vineyard. 152 00:09:08,596 --> 00:09:09,556 Speaker 4: They're like, you're to go to. 153 00:09:09,476 --> 00:09:11,596 Speaker 5: New York or we're going to have resources for you. 154 00:09:12,316 --> 00:09:18,756 Speaker 5: And unlike your responsible shelters in borders, make sure that 155 00:09:18,836 --> 00:09:22,596 Speaker 5: whoever people migrating and that have successfully crossed will make 156 00:09:22,636 --> 00:09:25,396 Speaker 5: it to a family member, a cousin, someone they know 157 00:09:25,516 --> 00:09:28,476 Speaker 5: that can help them in this situation. They just grab 158 00:09:28,516 --> 00:09:31,756 Speaker 5: people and dump them in Colorado. They did that last 159 00:09:31,876 --> 00:09:35,836 Speaker 5: last week in uh in Chicago and in these these 160 00:09:36,556 --> 00:09:41,156 Speaker 5: very you know, or progressive cities in order to really 161 00:09:42,036 --> 00:09:44,956 Speaker 5: pin us against each other, which is the whole that's 162 00:09:44,956 --> 00:09:49,396 Speaker 5: the whole point. Unfortunately, the Immigration Naturalization Act, which was 163 00:09:49,436 --> 00:09:51,876 Speaker 5: drafted in the sixties, has not changed. 164 00:09:52,276 --> 00:09:55,676 Speaker 4: Our policies have not changed. And while policy. 165 00:09:55,196 --> 00:09:59,196 Speaker 5: Remains obviously in like Congress, there's a lot of leeway 166 00:09:59,596 --> 00:10:01,876 Speaker 5: for for the president. 167 00:10:02,156 --> 00:10:06,116 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, So like while Congress is fighting over new legislation, 168 00:10:06,836 --> 00:10:09,836 Speaker 2: who's ever president can take their our own actions and 169 00:10:09,876 --> 00:10:12,876 Speaker 2: set some policy. So the situation on the ground feels 170 00:10:12,916 --> 00:10:15,476 Speaker 2: like it's always shifting and it's confusing. 171 00:10:15,756 --> 00:10:20,316 Speaker 5: Correct, And so with each presidency you have like new rules, 172 00:10:20,396 --> 00:10:24,636 Speaker 5: new regulations that completely shift the way that we welcome people. 173 00:10:25,036 --> 00:10:29,236 Speaker 5: And in between these two you have international laws, like 174 00:10:29,316 --> 00:10:32,476 Speaker 5: asylum laws that have been enacted. We are supposed to 175 00:10:32,556 --> 00:10:36,716 Speaker 5: welcome immigrants that cross and are in American soil, whether 176 00:10:36,796 --> 00:10:40,156 Speaker 5: through the river or through the bridge. And so there's 177 00:10:40,276 --> 00:10:44,716 Speaker 5: nothing new here except that they're just pushing our cities 178 00:10:45,196 --> 00:10:48,396 Speaker 5: and our resources and creating and causing chaos. 179 00:10:50,076 --> 00:10:52,636 Speaker 3: Nothing you here, yeah, yeah, I want to jump in 180 00:10:52,676 --> 00:10:56,036 Speaker 3: on this because a couple of quick points. One, I 181 00:10:56,116 --> 00:11:01,156 Speaker 3: have a relative, a cousin, who works for the Boston 182 00:11:01,196 --> 00:11:04,996 Speaker 3: Medical Center, and she was sending me texts about how 183 00:11:05,036 --> 00:11:09,756 Speaker 3: many asylum seekers were staying in various parts of the hospital. 184 00:11:09,876 --> 00:11:13,396 Speaker 3: I think Ben's question raises the question as to sharing 185 00:11:13,436 --> 00:11:17,796 Speaker 3: the burden of our failed immigration policies from red states 186 00:11:17,796 --> 00:11:21,076 Speaker 3: to blue states, from the border to blue cities. And 187 00:11:21,356 --> 00:11:24,836 Speaker 3: the Boston City administration, which is liberal, you know, was 188 00:11:24,916 --> 00:11:27,876 Speaker 3: like blaming the state for not having a plan, and 189 00:11:27,916 --> 00:11:30,356 Speaker 3: the state was putting it on the hospital to deal 190 00:11:30,396 --> 00:11:33,676 Speaker 3: with it, and so no one was taking ownership of 191 00:11:33,796 --> 00:11:37,516 Speaker 3: like the crisis, the humanitarian crisis that exists. 192 00:11:37,956 --> 00:11:42,356 Speaker 5: Absolutely, And I want to say, like, obviously this is 193 00:11:43,076 --> 00:11:46,716 Speaker 5: creating a crisis, but this is the aftermath of Trump's 194 00:11:46,796 --> 00:11:50,836 Speaker 5: policies and sort of bottlenecking everyone at the border. 195 00:11:50,436 --> 00:11:52,316 Speaker 3: That now are you talking about two? 196 00:11:52,676 --> 00:11:53,636 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, exactly. 197 00:11:53,676 --> 00:11:56,156 Speaker 3: We'd love to hear a little bit more about that. Yeah. 198 00:11:56,476 --> 00:11:59,396 Speaker 5: So Title forty two was enacted right in March of 199 00:11:59,396 --> 00:12:04,636 Speaker 5: twenty twenty, and it was a bullshit policy, basically saying 200 00:12:04,636 --> 00:12:06,556 Speaker 5: nobody can be allowed in because they're going to bring 201 00:12:06,596 --> 00:12:08,636 Speaker 5: like a terrible disease. 202 00:12:08,876 --> 00:12:11,676 Speaker 3: So everyone has this was COVID. This is March twenty 203 00:12:11,716 --> 00:12:15,876 Speaker 3: twenty a COVID policy. This was basically using the COVID 204 00:12:15,916 --> 00:12:20,836 Speaker 3: pandemic as an excuse to build on Trump's family separation policy, 205 00:12:20,836 --> 00:12:23,596 Speaker 3: which really was really about self deportation. Right, We're going 206 00:12:23,636 --> 00:12:25,796 Speaker 3: to scare the hell out of immigrants. We're going to 207 00:12:25,996 --> 00:12:28,476 Speaker 3: tear their families apart so they don't even think about 208 00:12:28,516 --> 00:12:31,156 Speaker 3: coming to the United States. And then Title forty two 209 00:12:31,196 --> 00:12:34,996 Speaker 3: is initiated during COVID to say and don't bring this disease. 210 00:12:34,636 --> 00:12:40,196 Speaker 5: With you exactly exactly, you know, with Title forty two, 211 00:12:40,756 --> 00:12:44,396 Speaker 5: then so much more happened in the sense that now 212 00:12:44,436 --> 00:12:46,916 Speaker 5: people are stuck. Now we don't have farmers, now we 213 00:12:46,956 --> 00:12:50,196 Speaker 5: don't have enough people working in like the kitchens, because 214 00:12:50,196 --> 00:12:53,116 Speaker 5: this is the normal flow of people north and of 215 00:12:53,156 --> 00:12:58,116 Speaker 5: reunifying with your families. So then Biden tried to shut 216 00:12:58,156 --> 00:13:01,516 Speaker 5: down Title forty two and bring it down, which was 217 00:13:01,556 --> 00:13:06,556 Speaker 5: one of his promises during his elections. Right, it is 218 00:13:06,596 --> 00:13:08,716 Speaker 5: a humanitarian crisis, I mean it continues. 219 00:13:09,196 --> 00:13:09,916 Speaker 4: This is sort of the. 220 00:13:09,916 --> 00:13:14,876 Speaker 5: Aftermath where now Biden was trying to lift it, and 221 00:13:14,916 --> 00:13:19,316 Speaker 5: then the attorney generals from certain states got together and said, actually, no, 222 00:13:19,516 --> 00:13:22,076 Speaker 5: we think that Title forty two should remain, and it 223 00:13:22,196 --> 00:13:27,076 Speaker 5: ended up in the Supreme Court. However, with Biden then 224 00:13:27,156 --> 00:13:31,436 Speaker 5: declaring that COVID, you know, is no longer a crisis, 225 00:13:31,476 --> 00:13:34,276 Speaker 5: a health crisis in our country, that made the issue 226 00:13:34,276 --> 00:13:37,356 Speaker 5: moot for the Supreme Court to review. So right now 227 00:13:38,316 --> 00:13:40,636 Speaker 5: Title forty two is no longer you know. It was 228 00:13:40,716 --> 00:13:42,636 Speaker 5: lifted May eleventh, and so there. 229 00:13:42,556 --> 00:13:44,516 Speaker 4: Was complete chaos at the border. 230 00:13:44,276 --> 00:13:46,876 Speaker 5: Because now we're going to have Title eight, which is 231 00:13:46,916 --> 00:13:49,276 Speaker 5: like sort of a new old policy but with a 232 00:13:49,316 --> 00:13:54,676 Speaker 5: lot more with a lot more sort of issues. But 233 00:13:55,476 --> 00:13:59,556 Speaker 5: asylum law allows people to claim asylum regardless of where 234 00:13:59,636 --> 00:14:03,756 Speaker 5: they enter, and this new policy is preventing people from 235 00:14:03,796 --> 00:14:06,956 Speaker 5: coming in through the river. They will be deported and 236 00:14:06,996 --> 00:14:09,396 Speaker 5: they will be not allowed to come into the country 237 00:14:09,436 --> 00:14:10,716 Speaker 5: for at least five years. 238 00:14:11,516 --> 00:14:12,556 Speaker 4: So people are scared. 239 00:14:12,596 --> 00:14:16,716 Speaker 5: I was at the border two weeks ago, and you know, 240 00:14:16,756 --> 00:14:19,036 Speaker 5: it feels the same as it did in the last 241 00:14:19,036 --> 00:14:22,636 Speaker 5: two years. I mean, same chaos, but I'm seeing more 242 00:14:22,716 --> 00:14:26,876 Speaker 5: Chinese immigrants, more Russian immigrants. 243 00:14:26,716 --> 00:14:29,356 Speaker 2: Coming through Mexico, the border with Mexico. 244 00:14:29,116 --> 00:14:31,756 Speaker 5: Through the border of Mexico because now, you know, and 245 00:14:31,796 --> 00:14:33,756 Speaker 5: I think all of this ties in with the fact 246 00:14:33,836 --> 00:14:36,756 Speaker 5: that we are not connecting the climate crisis with immigration. 247 00:14:37,476 --> 00:14:41,516 Speaker 5: And I have been seeing, you know, last in December, 248 00:14:42,436 --> 00:14:44,916 Speaker 5: I took we spent Christmas as a family at the 249 00:14:44,956 --> 00:14:49,116 Speaker 5: border and we met a lot of Ecuadorian indigenous people, 250 00:14:49,636 --> 00:14:52,476 Speaker 5: and like when indigenous people migrate, you know, I'm like, 251 00:14:52,756 --> 00:14:55,396 Speaker 5: why are you coming here? You have so much ancestral knowledge, 252 00:14:55,436 --> 00:14:58,916 Speaker 5: and unless it's like political persecution, like why are you here? 253 00:14:59,276 --> 00:15:01,476 Speaker 5: You're working at Walmart is just not going to do 254 00:15:01,596 --> 00:15:07,436 Speaker 5: it for you. And they had a flood last year 255 00:15:07,996 --> 00:15:12,756 Speaker 5: that destroyed huge indigenous region and now there's no agriculture 256 00:15:12,916 --> 00:15:16,556 Speaker 5: and there's no tourism and there's nothing. So they're migrating 257 00:15:16,596 --> 00:15:20,636 Speaker 5: north to whoever family member lives up in the north 258 00:15:20,716 --> 00:15:22,836 Speaker 5: so that they can find a way to live. 259 00:15:23,836 --> 00:15:26,116 Speaker 2: I love that you had that simple question of why 260 00:15:26,236 --> 00:15:28,196 Speaker 2: why you know, why come? If you know it's so 261 00:15:28,236 --> 00:15:32,676 Speaker 2: difficult to hear people's stories, just to clarify, to try 262 00:15:32,716 --> 00:15:35,956 Speaker 2: to understand. So Biden's policy, which is called Title eight, 263 00:15:36,036 --> 00:15:39,636 Speaker 2: which is not a new policy. The difference I think 264 00:15:39,636 --> 00:15:42,876 Speaker 2: I'm understanding is that it's more punitive. Is that supposed 265 00:15:42,876 --> 00:15:44,396 Speaker 2: to be a deterrent to others stories? 266 00:15:44,396 --> 00:15:46,276 Speaker 5: It's supposed to be a deterrent, and that's only for 267 00:15:46,356 --> 00:15:49,596 Speaker 5: people crossing in the river. And the other big point 268 00:15:49,756 --> 00:15:54,636 Speaker 5: is that anybody that is seeking asylum has and if 269 00:15:54,676 --> 00:15:57,276 Speaker 5: they didn't come from Mexico, are going to have to 270 00:15:57,316 --> 00:16:00,836 Speaker 5: prove that they seek the asylum somewhere along. 271 00:16:00,516 --> 00:16:03,196 Speaker 4: The journey prior to entering the US. 272 00:16:03,236 --> 00:16:05,876 Speaker 5: So like if you come from Columbia, like you better 273 00:16:05,956 --> 00:16:09,556 Speaker 5: look for asylum in Panama, Atemala, you know all of 274 00:16:09,596 --> 00:16:12,236 Speaker 5: these other countries that you're going to cross through before 275 00:16:12,276 --> 00:16:14,636 Speaker 5: you come to the US. And that's not what asylum 276 00:16:14,716 --> 00:16:17,316 Speaker 5: lies about. That's going to be challenged. 277 00:16:17,956 --> 00:16:21,316 Speaker 3: That's really clarifying. And I also think it's important to 278 00:16:21,396 --> 00:16:24,516 Speaker 3: note because the title a policy was already in place 279 00:16:24,596 --> 00:16:29,676 Speaker 3: in the Obama administration at a time when Obama was 280 00:16:29,716 --> 00:16:34,036 Speaker 3: sort of the first post George Bush president to toughen 281 00:16:34,156 --> 00:16:39,076 Speaker 3: up border patrol and make a kind of political stand 282 00:16:39,276 --> 00:16:42,676 Speaker 3: on excluding people who had been here a long time 283 00:16:42,956 --> 00:16:45,836 Speaker 3: but for those who were young people in college, the 284 00:16:45,876 --> 00:16:48,996 Speaker 3: so called dreamers, and so Obama ended up with the 285 00:16:49,076 --> 00:16:52,836 Speaker 3: nickname to Porter in Chief precisely because his own border 286 00:16:52,836 --> 00:17:00,996 Speaker 3: policies were considered to some degree unfair, inhumane, and ratcheting 287 00:17:01,076 --> 00:17:05,596 Speaker 3: up this notion that these people are unwelcome Carolina. Obviously, 288 00:17:05,676 --> 00:17:11,276 Speaker 3: this is a mess. Policy wise, it's complicated. It's easy 289 00:17:11,316 --> 00:17:13,716 Speaker 3: to point fingers at the Trump administration for most people 290 00:17:13,716 --> 00:17:16,236 Speaker 3: who are listening to this show. But as I just 291 00:17:16,276 --> 00:17:18,996 Speaker 3: pointed out, this is a problem. As you've continually said, 292 00:17:18,996 --> 00:17:21,836 Speaker 3: that is an old problem, and we haven't done much 293 00:17:21,876 --> 00:17:23,916 Speaker 3: to fix it. So when we come back from the break, 294 00:17:23,956 --> 00:17:26,396 Speaker 3: we're going to talk about what laws and policies need 295 00:17:26,476 --> 00:17:42,116 Speaker 3: to change in order to fix this mess. So listen. 296 00:17:42,836 --> 00:17:46,876 Speaker 3: America has often beat its chest as the most exceptional 297 00:17:46,916 --> 00:17:50,116 Speaker 3: place on Earth, and you'll often hear talking points from 298 00:17:50,116 --> 00:17:53,276 Speaker 3: conservatives and Republicans that if it's so bad in America, 299 00:17:53,276 --> 00:17:57,236 Speaker 3: according to racial justice and social justice advocates, why do 300 00:17:57,356 --> 00:18:03,316 Speaker 3: immigrants keep coming? And I'm taken with the contradictions, to 301 00:18:03,396 --> 00:18:07,756 Speaker 3: be sure, but the truth is America has always exploited 302 00:18:07,796 --> 00:18:11,396 Speaker 3: immigrants for economic game. The trade off here is that 303 00:18:11,556 --> 00:18:13,756 Speaker 3: you can come to this country if you're willing to 304 00:18:13,836 --> 00:18:17,836 Speaker 3: do the lowest, most dangerous, and least paid kind of 305 00:18:17,876 --> 00:18:20,516 Speaker 3: work in this country. And so the narrative of a 306 00:18:20,636 --> 00:18:23,956 Speaker 3: nation of immigrants is the narrative of poor people coming 307 00:18:23,996 --> 00:18:26,916 Speaker 3: here in search of opportunity in search of their pot 308 00:18:26,916 --> 00:18:29,516 Speaker 3: of gold, only to find that they're doing the scut 309 00:18:29,516 --> 00:18:32,356 Speaker 3: work in this country. And it's also a country that's 310 00:18:32,356 --> 00:18:36,556 Speaker 3: had incredible xenophobia, a country that has had nativist political 311 00:18:36,556 --> 00:18:39,636 Speaker 3: movements that go back to the eighteen hundreds, you know, 312 00:18:39,716 --> 00:18:43,516 Speaker 3: shortly after the country was founded. So let's talk about 313 00:18:43,596 --> 00:18:47,436 Speaker 3: Congress and its failure to not pass new immigration laws. 314 00:18:47,436 --> 00:18:50,676 Speaker 3: I mean, what is the conversation among immigrant advocates about 315 00:18:50,676 --> 00:18:51,876 Speaker 3: solving that problem. 316 00:18:53,596 --> 00:18:56,436 Speaker 5: I mean, I think you can't sort of dive into 317 00:18:56,516 --> 00:19:01,516 Speaker 5: the solution without understanding that immigration policy was enacted in 318 00:19:01,556 --> 00:19:05,796 Speaker 5: the sixties, right, you know, after the Second World War. 319 00:19:07,036 --> 00:19:09,276 Speaker 5: All our men were gone, so we were like, oh it, 320 00:19:09,516 --> 00:19:12,316 Speaker 5: no one's garden, no one's doing the agricultural stuff. We 321 00:19:12,796 --> 00:19:14,996 Speaker 5: need our stuff, So okay, I guess let's do the kids. 322 00:19:15,036 --> 00:19:17,996 Speaker 5: And also, oh wait, there's the Mexican people can come 323 00:19:18,036 --> 00:19:20,836 Speaker 5: and like harvest for us. And guess what they're asking 324 00:19:20,876 --> 00:19:24,316 Speaker 5: for way less money than what other people are asking for. 325 00:19:24,716 --> 00:19:28,036 Speaker 5: And so we sort of create this reliance and dependency 326 00:19:28,116 --> 00:19:29,636 Speaker 5: on seasonal workers. 327 00:19:29,956 --> 00:19:31,116 Speaker 4: You know, they don't want to be here. 328 00:19:31,316 --> 00:19:33,236 Speaker 5: I think that's sort of one thing that I try 329 00:19:33,276 --> 00:19:35,876 Speaker 5: to tell people, and it's like I wanted to be 330 00:19:35,916 --> 00:19:38,996 Speaker 5: in my country, and I wanted to be with my people, 331 00:19:39,036 --> 00:19:40,516 Speaker 5: with my flavor, with my things. 332 00:19:40,636 --> 00:19:41,356 Speaker 3: I didn't have to. 333 00:19:41,476 --> 00:19:43,836 Speaker 5: I didn't want to go through this entire transformation of 334 00:19:43,836 --> 00:19:46,556 Speaker 5: fitting in and the chameleon and sort of code switching 335 00:19:46,596 --> 00:19:47,756 Speaker 5: and language barriers. 336 00:19:48,356 --> 00:19:49,716 Speaker 4: But it's forced. 337 00:19:49,396 --> 00:19:52,236 Speaker 5: Migration, right, like you're forced because that's your only option. 338 00:19:52,356 --> 00:19:55,756 Speaker 5: And so in this situation we create this dependency. But 339 00:19:55,876 --> 00:19:58,316 Speaker 5: the border is sort of fluid, right. People can come in, 340 00:19:58,396 --> 00:20:03,916 Speaker 5: they work, they leave. And then in the eighties we said, 341 00:20:03,956 --> 00:20:06,836 Speaker 5: you know enough we need We're not doing this. We're 342 00:20:06,876 --> 00:20:10,396 Speaker 5: going to create a three and ten nearbars And so 343 00:20:10,676 --> 00:20:13,316 Speaker 5: if you stay in this country with no documentation for 344 00:20:13,356 --> 00:20:16,596 Speaker 5: more than half a year, you are going to the 345 00:20:16,596 --> 00:20:18,756 Speaker 5: moment that you step out of the country, you're not 346 00:20:18,836 --> 00:20:21,076 Speaker 5: going to be allowed back in for three years. If 347 00:20:21,116 --> 00:20:23,636 Speaker 5: you stay for longer than one year, you can come 348 00:20:23,676 --> 00:20:27,276 Speaker 5: back for ten years. And so that caused a huge 349 00:20:27,316 --> 00:20:29,756 Speaker 5: problem for people because they were you know, they were 350 00:20:29,796 --> 00:20:32,836 Speaker 5: investing in their communities, making the money and building a 351 00:20:32,916 --> 00:20:35,636 Speaker 5: house at Ranchito, you know, and their count in their 352 00:20:35,676 --> 00:20:37,316 Speaker 5: country and in their place. 353 00:20:37,556 --> 00:20:38,916 Speaker 4: And they had to choose. 354 00:20:39,196 --> 00:20:41,796 Speaker 5: So a lot of separation happened there where you know, 355 00:20:42,076 --> 00:20:44,756 Speaker 5: moms and dads or dads came and they started working, 356 00:20:44,876 --> 00:20:49,796 Speaker 5: sending money back home. And so when that that created 357 00:20:49,796 --> 00:20:52,796 Speaker 5: a that changed the dynamic because there was no longer 358 00:20:52,836 --> 00:20:53,956 Speaker 5: this movement. 359 00:20:53,996 --> 00:20:57,836 Speaker 2: Across right, Carolina, just I want to understand this clearly 360 00:20:58,196 --> 00:21:00,916 Speaker 2: when you're describing the policy in the nineteen eighties, that 361 00:21:00,996 --> 00:21:04,756 Speaker 2: changed what came before it, and was what came before 362 00:21:04,796 --> 00:21:07,636 Speaker 2: is sustainable. If things had not changed in the nineteen eighties, 363 00:21:07,676 --> 00:21:09,876 Speaker 2: we had something that was more viable, more humane. 364 00:21:10,996 --> 00:21:13,836 Speaker 5: I don't know if it was necessarily viable, but I 365 00:21:13,876 --> 00:21:18,116 Speaker 5: do think that it was more human because the issue 366 00:21:18,116 --> 00:21:21,716 Speaker 5: you have now is amongst those twelve million undocumented people 367 00:21:21,836 --> 00:21:25,396 Speaker 5: in the US are people who entered through the river 368 00:21:25,876 --> 00:21:28,316 Speaker 5: we call them ewis entering without inspection. 369 00:21:28,916 --> 00:21:30,756 Speaker 4: So they entered, they maybe never had. 370 00:21:30,636 --> 00:21:34,476 Speaker 5: A passport, they stayed here, and then now they married 371 00:21:34,516 --> 00:21:37,636 Speaker 5: a US citizen. But because they entered without being inspected 372 00:21:37,636 --> 00:21:41,196 Speaker 5: in a passport, in a stamp, they can't adjust unless 373 00:21:41,236 --> 00:21:44,116 Speaker 5: they go back to their country and seek a waiver 374 00:21:44,516 --> 00:21:47,156 Speaker 5: of like a pardon. If they say you're not allowed in, 375 00:21:47,196 --> 00:21:49,596 Speaker 5: you're not allowed in. And so you have all of 376 00:21:49,636 --> 00:21:53,596 Speaker 5: these people that are married to US citizens with US 377 00:21:53,636 --> 00:21:57,516 Speaker 5: citizen children that are in limbo that can't you know, 378 00:21:57,556 --> 00:22:00,236 Speaker 5: are paying their taxes because like immigrants pay billions of 379 00:22:00,276 --> 00:22:03,676 Speaker 5: dollars in taxes, there's literally no way for them to 380 00:22:03,716 --> 00:22:06,796 Speaker 5: make a line and become legal, Like there's no line, 381 00:22:06,836 --> 00:22:10,836 Speaker 5: there's no viable visas, no viable route for them to 382 00:22:10,916 --> 00:22:11,876 Speaker 5: come into the country. 383 00:22:12,196 --> 00:22:14,996 Speaker 4: So it's a failure. It's a huge failure. 384 00:22:15,036 --> 00:22:20,996 Speaker 5: And unfortunately it's what is a political pawn for every election. 385 00:22:21,436 --> 00:22:22,996 Speaker 4: You know, they start talking. 386 00:22:22,716 --> 00:22:26,036 Speaker 5: About caravans, they start talking about their invading our country, 387 00:22:26,476 --> 00:22:29,476 Speaker 5: and so it's and in reality they are keeping our 388 00:22:29,476 --> 00:22:32,916 Speaker 5: economy going because the avocado that you and I get 389 00:22:32,996 --> 00:22:36,876 Speaker 5: in the supermarket that we paid two bucks for actually 390 00:22:36,916 --> 00:22:40,116 Speaker 5: costs eight dollars. If you're going to humanize and pay 391 00:22:40,196 --> 00:22:43,596 Speaker 5: labor workers what they deserve, yeah, nobody wants that. 392 00:22:44,076 --> 00:22:47,196 Speaker 3: Well, you know, you know it is so both rich 393 00:22:47,556 --> 00:22:54,076 Speaker 3: and complicated about this conversation is how much the problem 394 00:22:54,156 --> 00:22:56,876 Speaker 3: that you describe been talking about this change in the 395 00:22:56,956 --> 00:23:01,076 Speaker 3: nineteen eighties. You know, what happened before that was really 396 00:23:01,676 --> 00:23:05,156 Speaker 3: trusting the agency of people whose own self interest was 397 00:23:05,196 --> 00:23:08,036 Speaker 3: still back home, which is to say they came to 398 00:23:08,156 --> 00:23:11,276 Speaker 3: work to to remit payments back to their families to 399 00:23:11,316 --> 00:23:15,276 Speaker 3: build what they needed back home, and of course occasionally 400 00:23:15,316 --> 00:23:18,876 Speaker 3: those people made lives for themselves here. Of course, some 401 00:23:18,916 --> 00:23:20,996 Speaker 3: of those people married and had children, which is of 402 00:23:21,036 --> 00:23:24,756 Speaker 3: course why for over twenty years Republicans have talked about 403 00:23:24,836 --> 00:23:28,756 Speaker 3: repealing birthright citizenship in the fourteenth Amendment, which is just fascinating, right. 404 00:23:28,876 --> 00:23:32,476 Speaker 3: I mean, it's literally undercut one of the core pillars 405 00:23:32,516 --> 00:23:35,476 Speaker 3: of our constitution, which grows out of the end of slavery, 406 00:23:35,516 --> 00:23:38,476 Speaker 3: but represents kind of this commitment to people who are 407 00:23:38,476 --> 00:23:40,996 Speaker 3: born in this country. But here's the thing. This is 408 00:23:41,036 --> 00:23:43,276 Speaker 3: the thing, Carolina that I always teach my students on 409 00:23:43,276 --> 00:23:46,396 Speaker 3: this subject, and that is that if immigrants came here 410 00:23:46,956 --> 00:23:49,676 Speaker 3: and shut up and did their jobs and went home 411 00:23:49,716 --> 00:23:52,876 Speaker 3: when they were told, if they were subjected to all 412 00:23:52,916 --> 00:23:56,316 Speaker 3: of the workplace violations that happened and meet meat packing plants, 413 00:23:56,516 --> 00:24:01,676 Speaker 3: if they were subjected to abuse picking oranges in Florida 414 00:24:01,836 --> 00:24:06,036 Speaker 3: or harvesting sugarcane in Louisiana and Texas and they never 415 00:24:06,076 --> 00:24:09,556 Speaker 3: complained about it, then everybody who is in control of 416 00:24:09,556 --> 00:24:12,996 Speaker 3: these policies would be fucking happy. But guess what, when 417 00:24:13,076 --> 00:24:16,596 Speaker 3: people demand to be seen, when they demand their dignity 418 00:24:16,796 --> 00:24:20,236 Speaker 3: when they demand respect. That's the problem. That's where those 419 00:24:20,316 --> 00:24:22,796 Speaker 3: laws came from in the nineteen eighties because immigrant people 420 00:24:22,796 --> 00:24:24,316 Speaker 3: had it to marry it and say, you don't have 421 00:24:24,356 --> 00:24:26,436 Speaker 3: a right to treat me this way, and they started 422 00:24:26,476 --> 00:24:29,476 Speaker 3: to organize, and so these laws have become more punitive 423 00:24:29,596 --> 00:24:33,396 Speaker 3: because people who were giving backbreaking labor to this country 424 00:24:33,436 --> 00:24:35,436 Speaker 3: demanded to be treated like human beings. 425 00:24:37,156 --> 00:24:42,156 Speaker 2: Yes, so Carolina, you're you know what Khalilsid is really 426 00:24:42,196 --> 00:24:44,236 Speaker 2: powerful and you maybe are starting to answer this a 427 00:24:44,276 --> 00:24:47,996 Speaker 2: little bit yourself and what you said, But what what 428 00:24:48,036 --> 00:24:52,716 Speaker 2: would a more humane and even sensible immigration policy look like? Like? 429 00:24:52,756 --> 00:24:54,116 Speaker 2: What do we want? 430 00:24:55,916 --> 00:24:59,756 Speaker 5: I mean, I think we want to allow people that 431 00:24:59,756 --> 00:25:02,676 Speaker 5: have been here, you know, those twelve million documented people 432 00:25:02,676 --> 00:25:05,196 Speaker 5: that have been living here for years, to actually live 433 00:25:05,236 --> 00:25:07,996 Speaker 5: without having to worry about every siren that they hear 434 00:25:08,636 --> 00:25:12,316 Speaker 5: and and living sort of in constant anxiety and fear. 435 00:25:13,356 --> 00:25:17,276 Speaker 5: I think that, you know, we could create new systems 436 00:25:17,436 --> 00:25:21,436 Speaker 5: and new visas and new alternatives to living where you know, 437 00:25:21,556 --> 00:25:24,876 Speaker 5: people want to live in their country of origin. 438 00:25:25,196 --> 00:25:27,796 Speaker 4: The problem is American politics also. 439 00:25:27,516 --> 00:25:32,356 Speaker 5: Have completely intervened in government elections and brought weapons down 440 00:25:32,436 --> 00:25:37,316 Speaker 5: south and done so much sort of intervening that people 441 00:25:37,356 --> 00:25:39,276 Speaker 5: don't want to go back to their countries because they 442 00:25:39,316 --> 00:25:42,396 Speaker 5: might not be safe. But for me, it's like we 443 00:25:42,436 --> 00:25:45,396 Speaker 5: can invite people and welcome people with dignity. 444 00:25:45,876 --> 00:25:48,716 Speaker 4: I think, you know, when you have violent. 445 00:25:48,556 --> 00:25:51,956 Speaker 5: Crimes against women specifically, I feel like for asylum law, 446 00:25:52,036 --> 00:25:55,276 Speaker 5: women should be given the ability to seek asylum just 447 00:25:55,316 --> 00:25:59,276 Speaker 5: because they're women. You know, the macho, the machismo and 448 00:25:59,516 --> 00:26:04,956 Speaker 5: femicide is so prevalent that I would you know, I'd 449 00:26:04,956 --> 00:26:08,996 Speaker 5: love for that to be included in an asylum to reckon. 450 00:26:09,716 --> 00:26:12,076 Speaker 5: But I think we could create welcoming centers and a 451 00:26:12,116 --> 00:26:17,996 Speaker 5: lot more visas that are specific. You know, I was 452 00:26:18,036 --> 00:26:20,916 Speaker 5: working in Brooklyn and we were talking about a potential 453 00:26:20,956 --> 00:26:24,476 Speaker 5: program in the border in order to develop and invest 454 00:26:24,556 --> 00:26:26,916 Speaker 5: in border cities. And the idea was people that didn't 455 00:26:26,956 --> 00:26:30,156 Speaker 5: quite qualify for DHAKA would be given two or three 456 00:26:30,236 --> 00:26:31,476 Speaker 5: year contracts where. 457 00:26:31,276 --> 00:26:34,356 Speaker 4: They could work in border towns and. 458 00:26:34,436 --> 00:26:37,076 Speaker 5: Teach sort of whatever it is that their gift was, 459 00:26:37,516 --> 00:26:39,956 Speaker 5: and they would have a salary, they would have dental, 460 00:26:39,996 --> 00:26:44,076 Speaker 5: they would have everything sort of promise to them so 461 00:26:44,116 --> 00:26:47,236 Speaker 5: that the anxiety of being in limbo could be sort 462 00:26:47,276 --> 00:26:50,316 Speaker 5: of forgotten and they could go back to breathing, you know, 463 00:26:50,356 --> 00:26:52,836 Speaker 5: they could just breathe lightly for a minute, and that 464 00:26:52,916 --> 00:26:57,676 Speaker 5: all got destroyed with the Trump administration. Women's Refugee Commission 465 00:26:57,796 --> 00:27:00,956 Speaker 5: did a project and they actually found out that if 466 00:27:00,996 --> 00:27:04,396 Speaker 5: we had a caseworker at the border working with people 467 00:27:04,476 --> 00:27:07,676 Speaker 5: in their cases and seeing how viable migration and success 468 00:27:07,716 --> 00:27:11,076 Speaker 5: would be in this country, they had ninety nine percent 469 00:27:11,156 --> 00:27:13,556 Speaker 5: of success as far as people showing up to court. 470 00:27:14,356 --> 00:27:17,276 Speaker 5: And so there's been some studies and other alternatives to 471 00:27:17,916 --> 00:27:20,916 Speaker 5: asylum and migration that have been proposed that are successful. 472 00:27:20,996 --> 00:27:25,476 Speaker 5: Perhaps it's like temporary visas. Maybe we prioritize families and 473 00:27:25,516 --> 00:27:28,516 Speaker 5: people that have connections to this, you know, the ground, 474 00:27:28,676 --> 00:27:29,396 Speaker 5: the soil here. 475 00:27:30,276 --> 00:27:32,436 Speaker 2: There is a proposal in Congress now, I don't know 476 00:27:32,476 --> 00:27:34,796 Speaker 2: how much traction it has. It's called the Dignity Act. 477 00:27:34,836 --> 00:27:37,356 Speaker 2: I don't know if you followed this. And it's bipartisan 478 00:27:37,396 --> 00:27:40,236 Speaker 2: in the sense that it has both Republican and Democratic 479 00:27:40,276 --> 00:27:44,916 Speaker 2: sponsors from border states, and it has a little bit 480 00:27:44,916 --> 00:27:46,996 Speaker 2: of everything. You could see a kind of compromise bill 481 00:27:47,076 --> 00:27:49,476 Speaker 2: like that. There is a lot of money for building 482 00:27:49,516 --> 00:27:52,756 Speaker 2: the wall, you know, like more border security. There's also 483 00:27:52,916 --> 00:27:57,516 Speaker 2: a pathway for Dreamers to get full citizenship, and sort 484 00:27:57,516 --> 00:27:59,796 Speaker 2: of maybe the heart of it is that there are 485 00:27:59,796 --> 00:28:06,516 Speaker 2: these programs for you know, all eligible undocumented immigrants to 486 00:28:07,276 --> 00:28:10,956 Speaker 2: stay here permanently, you know, if they follow a bunch 487 00:28:10,996 --> 00:28:14,436 Speaker 2: of rules and over a bunch of years, have you 488 00:28:14,516 --> 00:28:18,556 Speaker 2: followed that? And does that seem like a possible solution 489 00:28:18,916 --> 00:28:21,036 Speaker 2: or does it seem like the kind of proposals that 490 00:28:21,156 --> 00:28:23,556 Speaker 2: always get put up by by just one or two 491 00:28:23,676 --> 00:28:25,076 Speaker 2: or a handful of lawmakers. 492 00:28:25,596 --> 00:28:30,276 Speaker 5: So I'll answer it this way. So, right before Trump 493 00:28:30,356 --> 00:28:33,236 Speaker 5: took office, I worked for Mom's Rising. They work for 494 00:28:33,276 --> 00:28:37,356 Speaker 5: economic equality for families around the US, and I did policy. 495 00:28:37,796 --> 00:28:43,196 Speaker 5: I was basically did policy for immigration matters for this nonprofit, 496 00:28:43,796 --> 00:28:48,636 Speaker 5: and I realized that nothing was going to change if 497 00:28:48,996 --> 00:28:51,396 Speaker 5: the Dream Act did not pass in twenty ten, if 498 00:28:51,396 --> 00:28:54,316 Speaker 5: the Dream Act did not pass during Obama. 499 00:28:53,756 --> 00:28:55,316 Speaker 4: Like, the Dream Act is not going to pass. 500 00:28:55,956 --> 00:28:58,636 Speaker 5: I think we have some advocates in Congress that are 501 00:28:59,516 --> 00:29:02,156 Speaker 5: that are strong and that are advocating for many years in. 502 00:29:02,156 --> 00:29:03,756 Speaker 4: Order to change legislation. 503 00:29:04,556 --> 00:29:09,036 Speaker 5: But I don't really follow too many of those legislations 504 00:29:09,116 --> 00:29:13,076 Speaker 5: because I'm actually busy trying to find ways to not 505 00:29:13,156 --> 00:29:17,236 Speaker 5: gain the system, but to make sure that people have 506 00:29:17,316 --> 00:29:19,636 Speaker 5: an opportunity the people that are coming here, the people 507 00:29:19,636 --> 00:29:22,476 Speaker 5: that are already here, so that they have an opportunity 508 00:29:22,516 --> 00:29:26,556 Speaker 5: to actually establish themselves legally here and to fight back 509 00:29:26,876 --> 00:29:31,116 Speaker 5: and demand higher salaries, demand you know, call the cops 510 00:29:31,156 --> 00:29:34,636 Speaker 5: if they're being abused, Demand that their kids have the 511 00:29:34,716 --> 00:29:38,916 Speaker 5: proper access to education or to resources, you know, health 512 00:29:39,036 --> 00:29:43,756 Speaker 5: and services resources. So I don't I mean, I keep 513 00:29:43,916 --> 00:29:46,436 Speaker 5: tabs on some of it, but it's just a game, 514 00:29:46,636 --> 00:29:48,836 Speaker 5: and the border is the same as it was twenty 515 00:29:48,916 --> 00:29:52,676 Speaker 5: years ago. So I prefer to give tools to my 516 00:29:52,796 --> 00:29:55,276 Speaker 5: people because I do believe making sure that these new 517 00:29:55,316 --> 00:29:58,556 Speaker 5: immigrant citizens feel like they belong here, feel like they 518 00:29:58,556 --> 00:30:00,836 Speaker 5: can really be who they are. They're the ones that 519 00:30:00,836 --> 00:30:02,556 Speaker 5: are going to end up in Congress one day, and 520 00:30:02,556 --> 00:30:04,436 Speaker 5: they're the ones that are really going to change the law. 521 00:30:05,436 --> 00:30:08,676 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, Carolina, we're going to take a short break 522 00:30:08,676 --> 00:30:11,036 Speaker 2: and we come. We want to hear more about the 523 00:30:11,076 --> 00:30:13,476 Speaker 2: work you actually are doing and that you're excited about 524 00:30:13,476 --> 00:30:15,676 Speaker 2: these creative responses that you're describing. 525 00:30:30,596 --> 00:30:32,756 Speaker 3: Welcome back to some of my best friends are Carolina. 526 00:30:32,796 --> 00:30:37,756 Speaker 3: You've done a really masterful job helping to explain really 527 00:30:37,916 --> 00:30:41,156 Speaker 3: really complicated public policy. I mean the kind of stuff 528 00:30:41,196 --> 00:30:44,716 Speaker 3: that most people simply don't really understand. 529 00:30:45,396 --> 00:30:46,276 Speaker 1: There's one like me. 530 00:30:47,716 --> 00:30:52,236 Speaker 3: There's one big There's one big takeaway that you just 531 00:30:52,636 --> 00:30:56,796 Speaker 3: left us on before the break, which is that Congress 532 00:30:56,836 --> 00:31:00,476 Speaker 3: isn't going to fix this anytime soon. Meaningful legislation in 533 00:31:00,516 --> 00:31:04,556 Speaker 3: Congress is a tall order these days. But that being said, 534 00:31:05,156 --> 00:31:08,436 Speaker 3: I really want to lean into the bread and butter, 535 00:31:08,556 --> 00:31:11,436 Speaker 3: the heart and soul of what you do. I've heard 536 00:31:11,516 --> 00:31:15,636 Speaker 3: you talk about, I've seen your work. You know, as 537 00:31:15,676 --> 00:31:20,396 Speaker 3: an artist first before you became an advocate, you turned 538 00:31:20,436 --> 00:31:25,276 Speaker 3: to the imagination. You turn to the ability to help 539 00:31:25,356 --> 00:31:28,956 Speaker 3: people to tell stories, to see themselves. And I'm going 540 00:31:28,996 --> 00:31:30,876 Speaker 3: to quote you here in this Ted talk you gave. 541 00:31:30,956 --> 00:31:34,676 Speaker 3: You said, art is the embodiment of that better future 542 00:31:34,756 --> 00:31:38,716 Speaker 3: you can imagine for yourself. So let's talk about you 543 00:31:38,916 --> 00:31:42,916 Speaker 3: as the visual artist turned advocate and blending all of 544 00:31:42,916 --> 00:31:48,476 Speaker 3: those skills and to legal representation, human rights, creative interventions. 545 00:31:48,516 --> 00:31:51,476 Speaker 3: You are an award winning artist. You've been telling your 546 00:31:51,516 --> 00:31:55,916 Speaker 3: story of being from Bogata, Colombia, where civil war ravaged 547 00:31:55,956 --> 00:31:58,956 Speaker 3: the country. What is this art practice that you engage 548 00:31:58,996 --> 00:32:01,236 Speaker 3: in as you do your immigrant advocacy work. 549 00:32:02,556 --> 00:32:06,916 Speaker 5: So, like I said, it's it's very somatic at the beginning. 550 00:32:06,956 --> 00:32:12,516 Speaker 5: It's very somatic andocus in teaching immigrants their rights and 551 00:32:12,716 --> 00:32:17,516 Speaker 5: also creating spaces where people from different communities can come together, 552 00:32:17,636 --> 00:32:20,956 Speaker 5: so citizens non citizens can come together and sort of 553 00:32:20,996 --> 00:32:24,876 Speaker 5: really see each other as humans. I have all sorts 554 00:32:24,956 --> 00:32:28,516 Speaker 5: of different workshops, but let me tell you about the 555 00:32:28,516 --> 00:32:32,716 Speaker 5: salsa making Fourth Amendment workshop for delivery. 556 00:32:32,996 --> 00:32:35,556 Speaker 3: That sounds yummy already. I'm like, you know, I want sauce, 557 00:32:35,796 --> 00:32:36,876 Speaker 3: I want to know my rights. 558 00:32:36,956 --> 00:32:42,756 Speaker 5: Yes, I mean so, I do these workshops mostly at companies, 559 00:32:42,836 --> 00:32:47,396 Speaker 5: say Spotify or other bigger corporations, And I bring fifteen 560 00:32:47,436 --> 00:32:51,916 Speaker 5: delivery workers and fifteen workers from Spotify. I sit them 561 00:32:51,956 --> 00:32:55,996 Speaker 5: down and then we cut tomatoes. We talk about the tomatoes, 562 00:32:55,996 --> 00:32:56,956 Speaker 5: about the onions. 563 00:32:57,596 --> 00:32:59,956 Speaker 2: Is the sauce and chips just a social way to 564 00:33:00,036 --> 00:33:02,476 Speaker 2: spend time together and break bread, so to speak? Or 565 00:33:02,996 --> 00:33:05,036 Speaker 2: is it actually a teaching tool? Do you talk about 566 00:33:05,356 --> 00:33:07,956 Speaker 2: you know, the experience of the delivery workers or where 567 00:33:07,996 --> 00:33:08,916 Speaker 2: the food is sourced? 568 00:33:09,556 --> 00:33:12,276 Speaker 5: Absolutely, I mean a lot of the food we will grow, 569 00:33:12,316 --> 00:33:17,236 Speaker 5: like in Bruckner Garden in the Bronx, where where it 570 00:33:17,396 --> 00:33:19,356 Speaker 5: gives us an end to talk about how one in 571 00:33:19,436 --> 00:33:21,836 Speaker 5: three kids have asthma in the bronx and one in 572 00:33:21,876 --> 00:33:24,276 Speaker 5: four kids once they reach the age of eighteen will 573 00:33:24,356 --> 00:33:27,036 Speaker 5: end up in the car sool system. At some point 574 00:33:27,516 --> 00:33:30,836 Speaker 5: we talk about Fourth Amendment, stop and frisk, We start 575 00:33:30,876 --> 00:33:34,916 Speaker 5: talking about just all the rights that you have and 576 00:33:34,996 --> 00:33:36,716 Speaker 5: for allies to understand that. 577 00:33:36,836 --> 00:33:37,996 Speaker 4: YO, if you're in. 578 00:33:37,996 --> 00:33:41,876 Speaker 5: The subway and you see someone being stopped and it's 579 00:33:41,876 --> 00:33:44,756 Speaker 5: a person of color, like stop, make eye contact, turn 580 00:33:44,836 --> 00:33:47,836 Speaker 5: on the app that I have them download so that 581 00:33:47,876 --> 00:33:51,316 Speaker 5: they can videotape everything and make sure that you in 582 00:33:51,396 --> 00:33:53,996 Speaker 5: that moment, can become part of a community and you 583 00:33:54,076 --> 00:33:56,436 Speaker 5: can make sure that this person will be safe. 584 00:33:56,996 --> 00:33:58,756 Speaker 4: We give cards that say, hello. 585 00:33:58,556 --> 00:34:01,676 Speaker 5: Officer, I'm exercising my right to remain in silence. I 586 00:34:01,716 --> 00:34:04,596 Speaker 5: will not say a word until I speak with my lawyer. 587 00:34:04,636 --> 00:34:06,476 Speaker 5: I know I have a right to a call. And 588 00:34:06,516 --> 00:34:08,476 Speaker 5: then keep it with you so that if you are 589 00:34:08,516 --> 00:34:11,676 Speaker 5: stopped any time, you know that you can cover yourself 590 00:34:11,716 --> 00:34:13,236 Speaker 5: and protect yourself with this card. 591 00:34:13,836 --> 00:34:19,036 Speaker 2: This is simultaneously you're both educating the immigrant communities and 592 00:34:19,156 --> 00:34:21,476 Speaker 2: other people about immigrant communities and how to be part 593 00:34:21,516 --> 00:34:23,356 Speaker 2: of that's that's going on simultaneously. 594 00:34:23,476 --> 00:34:27,236 Speaker 5: That's happening on simultaneously because it's humanizing the other. 595 00:34:27,516 --> 00:34:27,676 Speaker 3: Right. 596 00:34:27,716 --> 00:34:30,596 Speaker 5: Delivery workers are the most invisible people in the world. 597 00:34:30,676 --> 00:34:31,956 Speaker 4: I mean, like they give you your food. 598 00:34:31,996 --> 00:34:33,756 Speaker 5: You don't even know if they have black hair, if 599 00:34:33,756 --> 00:34:36,316 Speaker 5: they talk to you short, tall. You just got your food. 600 00:34:36,356 --> 00:34:38,996 Speaker 5: That's all you care about, and you don't realize the 601 00:34:39,036 --> 00:34:41,436 Speaker 5: hard work that it takes navigating the city, you know, 602 00:34:41,516 --> 00:34:43,876 Speaker 5: in the snow and the rain and the heat, and 603 00:34:43,956 --> 00:34:48,236 Speaker 5: so in sharing a chip, so it's in you know, 604 00:34:48,316 --> 00:34:51,556 Speaker 5: seeing that the person is you know, likes mountain dew 605 00:34:51,796 --> 00:34:54,116 Speaker 5: cherry or whatever it is that you're like, oh, somebody 606 00:34:54,116 --> 00:34:59,676 Speaker 5: else likes the And it's those interactions that when this 607 00:34:59,756 --> 00:35:01,996 Speaker 5: person thinks about an immigrant, he's going to think about 608 00:35:02,076 --> 00:35:04,876 Speaker 5: Josse that took that class with you, and he's not 609 00:35:04,916 --> 00:35:06,876 Speaker 5: going to think about the dude he read about or 610 00:35:06,876 --> 00:35:10,236 Speaker 5: the numbers he read about on the news. So everything 611 00:35:10,316 --> 00:35:15,716 Speaker 5: is very I approached my artwork in a very lawyer way, 612 00:35:15,876 --> 00:35:19,516 Speaker 5: and I approached my law work in a very artistic way. 613 00:35:20,196 --> 00:35:23,116 Speaker 5: So yeah, it's you know, a really cool project that 614 00:35:23,156 --> 00:35:25,836 Speaker 5: we did two years ago during the pandemic was we 615 00:35:25,876 --> 00:35:28,436 Speaker 5: did the ice Cream Truck of Rights, where we created 616 00:35:28,476 --> 00:35:33,596 Speaker 5: twenty four flavors of rights, like edgymanshipcation justice, and we 617 00:35:33,676 --> 00:35:38,996 Speaker 5: created cards with QR codes that led directly to the resources. 618 00:35:39,036 --> 00:35:43,036 Speaker 5: And the eleven languages in New York City has sanctioned 619 00:35:43,236 --> 00:35:47,116 Speaker 5: as languages to the city. It's really fun because it's 620 00:35:47,156 --> 00:35:49,436 Speaker 5: you know, we go into communities. We visited the hardest 621 00:35:49,476 --> 00:35:52,916 Speaker 5: COVID hit neighborhoods, the Five Boroughs, and we made sure 622 00:35:52,956 --> 00:35:56,636 Speaker 5: that community had you know, we focused on housing rights, 623 00:35:56,756 --> 00:35:58,796 Speaker 5: environmental rights, and immigration rights. 624 00:35:59,076 --> 00:36:01,116 Speaker 4: Those were the three that we focused and we had house. 625 00:36:01,636 --> 00:36:04,716 Speaker 3: One of your flavors I have here is stop rum 626 00:36:04,836 --> 00:36:05,836 Speaker 3: raising the rent. 627 00:36:06,716 --> 00:36:09,596 Speaker 5: Yeah, stop raising the rent. So it's all of these 628 00:36:09,596 --> 00:36:13,436 Speaker 5: different flavors so that people could remember, could have like 629 00:36:13,476 --> 00:36:17,036 Speaker 5: a point of reference in order to remember in their 630 00:36:17,036 --> 00:36:20,036 Speaker 5: bodies what that right felt like and how they could 631 00:36:20,396 --> 00:36:22,916 Speaker 5: speak up for themselves and tap into their power. 632 00:36:23,716 --> 00:36:27,236 Speaker 2: Carolina, as you're as you're describing this work, you will 633 00:36:27,356 --> 00:36:30,196 Speaker 2: sound and you are so hopeful, and before as you're 634 00:36:30,236 --> 00:36:34,516 Speaker 2: talking about national policy, you sound a little hopeless. And 635 00:36:34,836 --> 00:36:37,436 Speaker 2: maybe maybe it's just about controlling the things you can 636 00:36:37,476 --> 00:36:40,676 Speaker 2: control and the spaces where you can can do something. 637 00:36:40,756 --> 00:36:43,756 Speaker 2: You can do something, And I wonder, you know, what 638 00:36:43,796 --> 00:36:46,356 Speaker 2: does that mean in terms of advice? You might have 639 00:36:46,476 --> 00:36:48,836 Speaker 2: for our listeners, people who are listening to this, like 640 00:36:48,836 --> 00:36:52,076 Speaker 2: in their local communities, you know, how can they pursue 641 00:36:53,036 --> 00:36:56,956 Speaker 2: justice and equity and tap into these issues in a 642 00:36:56,956 --> 00:36:58,076 Speaker 2: creative and meaningful way. 643 00:36:59,236 --> 00:37:01,236 Speaker 5: Absolutely, Ben, And you're right. I mean I am so 644 00:37:01,316 --> 00:37:03,596 Speaker 5: much more animated by this type of work because it's 645 00:37:03,596 --> 00:37:06,076 Speaker 5: the estuary, right, it's sort of the mix of both worlds, 646 00:37:06,076 --> 00:37:09,156 Speaker 5: and it's not like the policy in the hill. And 647 00:37:09,636 --> 00:37:12,276 Speaker 5: I think that you know, as humans, we think there's 648 00:37:12,356 --> 00:37:14,436 Speaker 5: like an aha moment in our lives, or we think 649 00:37:14,436 --> 00:37:16,556 Speaker 5: that climate change is going to be a ball blowing 650 00:37:16,636 --> 00:37:18,756 Speaker 5: up and killing all of us, and the cockroaches are 651 00:37:18,756 --> 00:37:22,596 Speaker 5: going to invade, and it's actually like very small, gradual 652 00:37:23,196 --> 00:37:25,196 Speaker 5: habit changes that need to occur. 653 00:37:25,356 --> 00:37:27,276 Speaker 4: And for me, it's our community. 654 00:37:27,876 --> 00:37:31,836 Speaker 2: And so you say our community whatever your local community 655 00:37:31,916 --> 00:37:32,916 Speaker 2: is exactly. 656 00:37:32,596 --> 00:37:36,116 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's working with your local community. It is in 657 00:37:36,156 --> 00:37:39,876 Speaker 5: those smaller steps. It is in realizing I can donate 658 00:37:39,916 --> 00:37:42,836 Speaker 5: these shoes to a family in the border and a 659 00:37:42,916 --> 00:37:46,076 Speaker 5: person that has crossed for three months barefoot or in 660 00:37:46,156 --> 00:37:48,876 Speaker 5: sandals is going to be comfortable, and that makes a 661 00:37:48,956 --> 00:37:52,276 Speaker 5: huge difference to that one person. I think we want 662 00:37:52,316 --> 00:37:55,876 Speaker 5: to create this like huge change, and like as kids, 663 00:37:55,916 --> 00:37:58,276 Speaker 5: you know, and as hopeful youth where like We're going 664 00:37:58,316 --> 00:37:59,636 Speaker 5: to change policy and I'm going to be in the 665 00:37:59,636 --> 00:38:03,516 Speaker 5: Supreme Court. And in reality, it's those connections that you 666 00:38:03,596 --> 00:38:07,276 Speaker 5: make in the every day, right, It's tapping into your community. 667 00:38:07,276 --> 00:38:09,316 Speaker 5: What can I do in this community in order or 668 00:38:09,316 --> 00:38:12,276 Speaker 5: to shift narratives the very same way that we do 669 00:38:12,356 --> 00:38:15,196 Speaker 5: with the workshops. You know, the clay workshops happen in Brooklyn, 670 00:38:15,516 --> 00:38:19,596 Speaker 5: and we bring different communities like stay at home moms 671 00:38:19,596 --> 00:38:22,356 Speaker 5: that are you know, doing pottery, and we bring the 672 00:38:22,356 --> 00:38:26,916 Speaker 5: immigrant communities, and then in the humanity in working next 673 00:38:26,956 --> 00:38:30,956 Speaker 5: to each other, they realize, man, I'm not paying them 674 00:38:31,316 --> 00:38:34,636 Speaker 5: necessarily for holidays. I should really pay for that. And 675 00:38:34,676 --> 00:38:38,636 Speaker 5: so it's in those smaller actions that true change happens. 676 00:38:38,796 --> 00:38:41,636 Speaker 5: So for the listeners, it's like, don't be hopeful and 677 00:38:41,756 --> 00:38:44,916 Speaker 5: actually reach out to whatever you're passionate about. If immigration 678 00:38:45,036 --> 00:38:47,516 Speaker 5: is not your passion then like, don't don't do that 679 00:38:47,556 --> 00:38:49,796 Speaker 5: because you're going to need a lot of momentum. If 680 00:38:49,836 --> 00:38:53,036 Speaker 5: it is racial equality, if it is you know, at 681 00:38:53,076 --> 00:38:57,916 Speaker 5: the environment, like tap into those communities and really get to. 682 00:38:57,196 --> 00:38:59,996 Speaker 4: Connect with human beings and others. 683 00:38:59,916 --> 00:39:02,596 Speaker 2: And Carolyne I just want to say, not just thank you, 684 00:39:02,636 --> 00:39:05,516 Speaker 2: but you know you're you're inspiring. Thank you for that. 685 00:39:05,836 --> 00:39:07,676 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I just want to add you know, I've 686 00:39:07,676 --> 00:39:09,956 Speaker 3: spent a lot of time with you, but I learned 687 00:39:09,956 --> 00:39:13,916 Speaker 3: more about what you actually do today, and in particular, 688 00:39:14,076 --> 00:39:17,516 Speaker 3: I always thought that you were so focused on immigrant 689 00:39:17,756 --> 00:39:21,876 Speaker 3: rights and advocacy, but what you're really talking about is 690 00:39:21,996 --> 00:39:26,396 Speaker 3: changing this country and the world for the better no 691 00:39:26,436 --> 00:39:28,756 Speaker 3: matter who you are. When you're talking about know your rights, 692 00:39:28,796 --> 00:39:31,956 Speaker 3: it's not just immigration policy. It's about your right to 693 00:39:32,396 --> 00:39:36,916 Speaker 3: a living wage, to a decent home, to dignity, and man, 694 00:39:37,036 --> 00:39:40,796 Speaker 3: that is really inspiring. So I'm going to leave our 695 00:39:40,836 --> 00:39:42,596 Speaker 3: listeners with a quote from you, because I think this 696 00:39:42,636 --> 00:39:46,076 Speaker 3: is the perfect like wrap up to what you've described 697 00:39:46,116 --> 00:39:49,796 Speaker 3: about your work. You've said for me, if you don't 698 00:39:49,796 --> 00:39:52,556 Speaker 3: feel like you have a place at the table, you 699 00:39:52,596 --> 00:39:55,596 Speaker 3: don't just build a new table, you build a new house. 700 00:39:56,196 --> 00:39:59,236 Speaker 3: All right, Carolina, you are one badass woman. So you 701 00:39:59,356 --> 00:40:01,956 Speaker 3: keep on doing what you've been doing. And we're really 702 00:40:02,116 --> 00:40:03,436 Speaker 3: grateful to have you on the show. 703 00:40:04,396 --> 00:40:05,836 Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me. 704 00:40:05,876 --> 00:40:07,996 Speaker 5: What a pleasure to be able to talk about what 705 00:40:08,076 --> 00:40:08,996 Speaker 5: I love with you. 706 00:40:09,716 --> 00:40:21,716 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. Thank you right, all right, Khalil. 707 00:40:22,036 --> 00:40:25,276 Speaker 2: It was amazing talking to Carolina, and she made me 708 00:40:25,316 --> 00:40:26,916 Speaker 2: think about what I said at the start of the 709 00:40:26,956 --> 00:40:31,116 Speaker 2: show about Chicago and all that's going on here with refugees, 710 00:40:31,396 --> 00:40:35,356 Speaker 2: and I talked about a backlash, but I have to 711 00:40:35,396 --> 00:40:40,876 Speaker 2: reevaluate that and accentuate the positive, because man, we have 712 00:40:41,036 --> 00:40:48,636 Speaker 2: also been a welcoming city. People have stepped up, black churches, neighbors, 713 00:40:48,716 --> 00:40:52,356 Speaker 2: community groups. You know, my father rode his bike over 714 00:40:52,436 --> 00:40:55,556 Speaker 2: to a soccer game the other day where the refugees 715 00:40:55,556 --> 00:40:58,116 Speaker 2: where they're living, They like do this every weekend. Okay, 716 00:40:58,796 --> 00:41:00,796 Speaker 2: there was a funeral that was held for somebody who 717 00:41:00,836 --> 00:41:03,556 Speaker 2: was in one of the shelters. And yeah, and I think, 718 00:41:04,196 --> 00:41:06,516 Speaker 2: you know, one of the things that this political stunt 719 00:41:06,556 --> 00:41:10,316 Speaker 2: from Texas has proven is that, you know, we can 720 00:41:10,396 --> 00:41:13,156 Speaker 2: do better. And I'm also I'm also proud of the 721 00:41:13,196 --> 00:41:17,236 Speaker 2: city because because this is important to welcome people. 722 00:41:17,716 --> 00:41:19,396 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think you're right. 723 00:41:19,716 --> 00:41:23,596 Speaker 3: And I think that hearing from Carolina and having her 724 00:41:23,756 --> 00:41:27,156 Speaker 3: peel back the layers of all the ways that people 725 00:41:27,276 --> 00:41:30,436 Speaker 3: like herself who advocate on behalf of immigrants, who are 726 00:41:30,436 --> 00:41:34,596 Speaker 3: inspiring other people in communities small and large near the 727 00:41:34,636 --> 00:41:39,836 Speaker 3: border away from the border is exactly the antidote to 728 00:41:40,836 --> 00:41:42,556 Speaker 3: the politics of. 729 00:41:43,276 --> 00:41:44,796 Speaker 1: Fear and. 730 00:41:46,556 --> 00:41:50,916 Speaker 3: Danger and scarcity, like the notion that we don't have enough, 731 00:41:51,676 --> 00:41:54,636 Speaker 3: particularly since we are a country as wealthy as we are, 732 00:41:54,676 --> 00:41:57,996 Speaker 3: and part of our wealth comes from foreign policies that 733 00:41:58,076 --> 00:42:00,796 Speaker 3: take from other countries like Latin America, take their people, 734 00:42:00,836 --> 00:42:06,196 Speaker 3: take their resources. We actually have an obligation to not 735 00:42:06,236 --> 00:42:08,116 Speaker 3: only figure this out for the long term, but we 736 00:42:08,156 --> 00:42:11,156 Speaker 3: have an obligation the sh your term to do something 737 00:42:11,516 --> 00:42:15,756 Speaker 3: to help people. And I'm really proud of Carolina, and 738 00:42:15,796 --> 00:42:19,836 Speaker 3: I'm proud of your pops for helping out too. 739 00:42:20,356 --> 00:42:22,956 Speaker 2: One small thing I'm gonna do when this episode comes out, 740 00:42:23,276 --> 00:42:26,836 Speaker 2: I'm donating to the Chicago Refugee Coalition and I'm going 741 00:42:26,876 --> 00:42:30,556 Speaker 2: to do a fundraiser so all the listeners look out 742 00:42:30,596 --> 00:42:32,236 Speaker 2: for it and and give generously. 743 00:42:33,276 --> 00:42:36,956 Speaker 3: All Right, You're going to spam them with a Kickstarter 744 00:42:37,076 --> 00:42:39,876 Speaker 3: and go fund me solicitations. 745 00:42:40,516 --> 00:42:42,356 Speaker 1: It's going to work out, all right, man. I'm proud 746 00:42:42,356 --> 00:42:43,676 Speaker 1: of you. You are stepping up. 747 00:42:44,276 --> 00:42:49,636 Speaker 2: I love you, man, I love you too. 748 00:42:50,716 --> 00:42:53,076 Speaker 3: Some of My Best Friends Are is a production of 749 00:42:53,156 --> 00:42:56,516 Speaker 3: Pushkin Industries. The show is written and hosted by me 750 00:42:56,716 --> 00:42:59,716 Speaker 3: Khalil Jbron Muhammad and my best friend Ben Austin. 751 00:42:59,916 --> 00:43:03,836 Speaker 2: It's produced by Lucy Sullivan. Our associate producer is Rachel Yang. 752 00:43:04,356 --> 00:43:07,596 Speaker 2: It's edited by Sarah Nix with help from Keyshel Williams. 753 00:43:07,956 --> 00:43:11,756 Speaker 2: Our engineer is a Man Wang and our managing producer 754 00:43:11,956 --> 00:43:14,076 Speaker 2: is Constanza Guyardo. 755 00:43:14,236 --> 00:43:18,596 Speaker 3: At Pushkin thanks to Leital Mollad, Julia Barton, Heather Fain, 756 00:43:19,036 --> 00:43:24,076 Speaker 3: Carly Migliori, John Schnarz, Retta Cone, and Jacob Weisberg. 757 00:43:24,316 --> 00:43:28,076 Speaker 2: Our theme song, Little Lily, is by fellow chicagoan the 758 00:43:28,116 --> 00:43:32,076 Speaker 2: brilliant Avery R. Young, from his album Tubman. You definitely 759 00:43:32,076 --> 00:43:35,076 Speaker 2: want to check out his music at his website Averyaryong 760 00:43:35,196 --> 00:43:35,836 Speaker 2: dot com. 761 00:43:35,916 --> 00:43:39,076 Speaker 3: You can find Pushkin on all social platforms at Pushkin 762 00:43:39,116 --> 00:43:41,996 Speaker 3: pods and you can sign up for our newsletter at 763 00:43:41,996 --> 00:43:46,196 Speaker 3: pushkin dot fm. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on 764 00:43:46,236 --> 00:43:50,396 Speaker 3: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you like to listen. 765 00:43:50,556 --> 00:43:52,956 Speaker 2: And if you like our show, please give us a 766 00:43:52,996 --> 00:43:55,596 Speaker 2: five star rating and a review and listen even if 767 00:43:55,596 --> 00:43:57,236 Speaker 2: you don't like it, give it a five star rating 768 00:43:57,276 --> 00:44:00,156 Speaker 2: and a review, and please tell all of your best 769 00:44:00,156 --> 00:44:10,476 Speaker 2: friends about it. Thank you. 770 00:44:10,956 --> 00:44:11,236 Speaker 5: All. 771 00:44:11,716 --> 00:44:14,476 Speaker 2: Concerts maser s