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Speaker 1: Body backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. I lived in the

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Speaker 1: mountains from the time as a college professor up into

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Speaker 1: North George Mountains, in the Blue Ridge Mountains specifically, there

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Speaker 1: was a place I'd like to go to every now

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Speaker 1: and then, hop on my truck, sometimes by myself, many

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Speaker 1: times with my son and to my wife, and I

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Speaker 1: would go up there on the weekends as well, and

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Speaker 1: it's one of those places that's untouched. It's a federal park.

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Speaker 1: It's called Windfield Scott and there's actually a lake Windfield

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Speaker 1: Scott up there, and when you see it, it's surrounded

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Speaker 1: by hemlock trees and these big beautiful indigenous pones, some hardwoods,

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Speaker 1: and the lake is stocked with trout. But you know,

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Speaker 1: the thing about that lake is that on the surface

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Speaker 1: it's absolutely gorgeous. The water seems almost untouched, and you

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Speaker 1: can take photos up there and it's like it's frozen

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Speaker 1: in toime a place of a beauty. You almost hate

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Speaker 1: to disturb the water. But the moment you pick up

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Speaker 1: a stone and you throw it as you're standing on

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Speaker 1: the bank into the middle of it, there's a ripple

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Speaker 1: that goes out and anything that's on the surface is affected.

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Speaker 1: Even the picture you have in your mind's eye of

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Speaker 1: it is disrupted, and for that moment in time, you've

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Speaker 1: changed the face of that otherwise pristine environment. I think,

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Speaker 1: at least in my way of thinking, that sixty years

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Speaker 1: ago in Dallas, Texas, that's kind of what happened. That's

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Speaker 1: what happened on November twenty second, when our president at

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Speaker 1: the time, John F. Kennedy was shot. Because there were

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Speaker 1: those times prior to President Kennedy having been assassinated murdered,

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Speaker 1: and those times afterwards, and we as a country, I

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Speaker 1: think at least my generation marks that time that way.

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Speaker 1: Today we're gonna chat about the failures of the medical

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Speaker 1: legal system in John F. Kennedy's assassination investigation. I'm Joseph

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Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is Bodybags. Hey, David, do you

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Speaker 1: know where I was when John Kennedy was murdered.

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Speaker 2: I'm thinking you probably weren't born yet.

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Speaker 1: I was in utero. I was in my mommy's tummy

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Speaker 1: as it were. Yeah, that's where I was. And still,

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Speaker 1: even though you know, I obviously don't have a real

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Speaker 1: time connection to that event, so many of my friends

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Speaker 1: do that are older, and you can talk to those

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Speaker 1: folks and say, do you remember where you were when

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Speaker 1: the president was murdered, and they will be able to

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Speaker 1: tell you just spot on, you know, what they were doing,

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Speaker 1: where they were. It's kind of, you know, it's kind

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Speaker 1: of like nine to eleven, you know, you ask people, now,

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Speaker 1: where were you, what were you doing? And I think

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Speaker 1: that it's maybe you could, I don't know, maybe you

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Speaker 1: could go back to Abraham Lincoln's time, you know where

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Speaker 1: if you could talk to those people that were living

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Speaker 1: during that time post Civil war, immediately post Civil War,

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Speaker 1: and you ask them where were you when you found

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Speaker 1: out that Lincoln died or was murdered, they could probably

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Speaker 1: tell you that that's kind of etched into their memory.

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Speaker 1: But even now, sixty years later, we've got generations that

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Speaker 1: have been born afterwards and people still know the story.

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Speaker 1: And I think that it's still haunting us as a nation.

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Speaker 1: I think that that's probably an understatement.

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Speaker 2: I think it's one of those stories that will never end.

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Speaker 2: And what you're going to talk about with regard to

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Speaker 2: the autopsy, this is the second part of the story

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Speaker 2: that people don't know. There are plenty of theories that

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Speaker 2: have been bandied about. Most people tell you that they

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Speaker 2: don't believe Lee Harvey Alifold actor alone and shot Kennedy

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Speaker 2: from behind from the sixth floor of Texas school Book

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Speaker 2: Depository building, while others will say many other things and

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Speaker 2: what they've heard. Let's just start from the moment that

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Speaker 2: limousine convertible in Dealey Plaza, the President's been shot. If

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Speaker 2: we start right there, what took place with the president

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Speaker 2: of the United States of America.

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Speaker 1: Obviously, the most glaring piece of evidence is going to

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Speaker 1: be the Suppruver film. And I'm talking about just from

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Speaker 1: a death investigation perspective, nothing else. We can look at

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Speaker 1: that and think we've just witnessed it, you know, the

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Speaker 1: murder of sitting American president. And to this day there

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Speaker 1: are all these questions that exist. And look, people can

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Speaker 1: go down the road with a variety of different types

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Speaker 1: of scenarios that may or may not happen. But you know,

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Speaker 1: one of the reasons I wanted to do body backs was,

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Speaker 1: at least in my own little way, I could perhaps

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Speaker 1: introduce some science into things so that people from a

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Speaker 1: forensic perspective, so that people could understand, you know, what

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Speaker 1: they're seeing, it seems, and that sort of thing and

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Speaker 1: try to interpret some of the data that comes in,

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Speaker 1: and there was so much. I mean there truly was, Dave,

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Speaker 1: you know, in this particular case that was essentially kind

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Speaker 1: of bulldozed over for any number of reasons that have

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Speaker 1: been put out over the years as rationalees as to

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Speaker 1: why we didn't do this, and why we didn't do that,

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Speaker 1: and why we did this. And you look back at

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Speaker 1: it and you think that if you had just merely

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Speaker 1: taken the time to stick with the standard procedure, you

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Speaker 1: wouldn't have all these questions that are left dangling out there,

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Speaker 1: these things that people scratch their heads over, people study

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Speaker 1: and write books over for years and years afterwards. If

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Speaker 1: you had just taken that moment Tom to hit pause

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Speaker 1: and to work the case, That's what it comes down to,

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Speaker 1: and that's what makes this such a monumental failure to you.

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Speaker 2: Okay, the standard procedure you're talking about is about the

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Speaker 2: autopsy itself, performing the autopsy within the jurisdiction, which was

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Speaker 2: not done. According to Texas state law. The standard is

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Speaker 2: that the autopsy should have been done in Dallas County

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Speaker 2: and again per state law, which states in all cases

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Speaker 2: of accident homicide, suicide and undetermined deaths. The medical examiner

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Speaker 2: is mandated by Texas law to determine the cause and

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Speaker 2: manner of death. Correct. Yeah, his jurisdiction was that Joe

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Speaker 2: as a death investigator who should have been in charge

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Speaker 2: of the investigation of the murder of a man in Dallas, Texas.

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Speaker 1: Well the prosecutor for Dallas County. It lays right at

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Speaker 1: that individual's feet. And what's really striking about this is

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Speaker 1: that they had Dallas County had actually a real gem

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Speaker 1: of a person in place for forensic autopsies, a man

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Speaker 1: that was for his day in time, was in the

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Speaker 1: forefront of well, certainly in the sense of Texas kind

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Speaker 1: of codifying the standard for death investigation. And let me

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Speaker 1: back up just a second, because a lot of people

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Speaker 1: don't understand what goes on in Texas relative death investigations.

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Speaker 1: You know that. I don't know if we discussed this before,

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Speaker 1: but it's kind of an interesting little aside. Traditionally Texas

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Speaker 1: not traditionally, Texas does not have corners, all right, they

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Speaker 1: actually have the Justice of the Peace is the de

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Speaker 1: facto corner in the state of Texas. And prior to

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Speaker 1: doctor Earl Rose, who was the forensic pathologist and the

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Speaker 1: chief medical examiner, if you will, for Dallas, Texas at

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Speaker 1: that time, and he had just taken that office not

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Speaker 1: too long before all of this went down. As matter

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Speaker 1: of fact, I think it was earlier in nineteen sixty three.

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Speaker 1: He just kind of appears doctor Earl Rose, board certified

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Speaker 1: forensic pathologist. So you're not talking about just some pathologist

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Speaker 1: that just walks in off the street that happens to

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Speaker 1: do hospital pathology. You're talking about a highly trained individual

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Speaker 1: that was a forensic pathologist that had done forensic autopsies,

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Speaker 1: that understood wound ballistics and could contextualize everything. And just imagine,

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Speaker 1: if you will, You're faced with seemingly probably the most

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Speaker 1: daunting murder investigation any jury diction could possibly be faced with,

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Speaker 1: and you have at your literally at your fingertips, access

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Speaker 1: to this fantastic forensic mind that is in the hallway

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Speaker 1: day of Parkland. Just let that sink in.

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Speaker 2: To be clear, As you said, Joe Earl Rose was

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Speaker 2: the medical examiner for Dallas County, Texas at the time. However,

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Speaker 2: at the trauma room door, Rose was met by the

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Speaker 2: Secret Service and the President's personal physician, who informed Rose

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Speaker 2: that there was no time for an autopsy, and that

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Speaker 2: the body would be transported to the airport. Rose objected,

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Speaker 2: tried to stand in the way, but was reportedly pushed

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Speaker 2: aside by the president's aides, and the body was transported

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Speaker 2: back to Washington.

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Speaker 1: That's what happened. I don't And here's the interesting thing.

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Speaker 1: Parkland Hospital where the pros it's motorcade went to. It's

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Speaker 1: fine hospital and had a reputation as being a fine

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Speaker 1: hospital still does. It's teaching hospital. So you had residents there,

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Speaker 1: you know, you had people that were working as neurosurgical residents.

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Speaker 1: A lot has been made of that because you had

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Speaker 1: all these neurosurgeon surgeons that were physically there in the

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Speaker 1: trauma room when the president rolled in. Because they called

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Speaker 1: a code. Everybody knew the president was in town. And

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Speaker 1: this in a hospital, it's like a little town. It

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Speaker 1: spread like wildfire. So everybody that was anybody sprinted towards

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Speaker 1: the trauma room when the call went up, and he

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Speaker 1: was there within just a few minutes. The first shots,

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Speaker 1: if I remember correctly, rang out at right at about

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Speaker 1: twelve thirty. It was all said and done in the

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Speaker 1: motorcade by twelve thirty. That third shot had rung out,

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Speaker 1: they had to Parkland, and they're on a direct route

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Speaker 1: for it. Anyway, that's in the general direction. But in

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Speaker 1: secret service types, they know where all the hospitals are.

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Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, before the Secret Service even

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Speaker 1: brings a president in the town, they know where all

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Speaker 1: the trauma centers are. They lay in a supply of

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Speaker 1: the president's blood. Did you know that at all of

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Speaker 1: these hospitals where there's a trauma center, they knew where

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Speaker 1: Parkland was, and they knew that they were on a

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Speaker 1: direct route for it. So when they go under the

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Speaker 1: viaduct over the trestle, you know, he's got his foot

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Speaker 1: on the floor. They're heading toward the er and within

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Speaker 1: twenty seven minutes, I think it's twenty seven roughly President's dead.

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Speaker 1: I mean, they've called it at that point.

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Speaker 2: So let me ask you Joe was the president based

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Speaker 2: on the condition of his body at that moment when

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Speaker 2: he was shot. Did he die in the limo or

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Speaker 2: did he actually make it? Was he alive when he

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Speaker 2: got to Parkland?

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Speaker 1: I think that if he had any kind of.

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Speaker 2: Pulse.

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Speaker 1: I've used this term before on body bags or agonal respirations,

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Speaker 1: which means that your chest is still rising and falling.

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Speaker 1: That's going to be at an autonomic level auto meaning

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Speaker 1: self where you're on cruise control. Even Abe Lincoln when

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Speaker 1: he was shot, Dave, you know, he shot and we

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Speaker 1: did a great episode of I think it's great personally,

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Speaker 1: but with Lincoln. You know, Lincoln lasted through the night

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Speaker 1: and he was shot in an area that transacted you know,

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Speaker 1: his brain. It went from I think right right to left.

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Speaker 1: The round wound up behind his left eye. I might

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Speaker 1: be way off the mark there. Either way, it criss

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Speaker 1: crossed across his brain.

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Speaker 2: So it's possible the JFK was alive when it technic.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I can't speak to the quality of life, but

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Speaker 1: he would have had at least maybe agonal respirations. But

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Speaker 1: he wasn't long for this world because he sustained at

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Speaker 1: minimum two gunshot wounds, and both of them in their

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Speaker 1: own right or horribly traumatic. The headshot alone is enough

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Speaker 1: to have taken him out just in and of itself,

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Speaker 1: because so much was lost, so much disruption took place.

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Speaker 1: That's an it's an unsurvivable wound, so you know, but

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Speaker 1: they knew that when he rolled in, the fact that

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Speaker 1: they were doing heroic efforts We've heard a lot about

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Speaker 1: the the trecheotomy that was performed, and I can address

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Speaker 1: that too, because that, you know, that plays into this

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Speaker 1: whole scenario about you know what, what are you seeing

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Speaker 1: there as a clinician when you're assessing when they would

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Speaker 1: have made those efforts. They were merely heroic efforts because

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Speaker 1: they knew that it was a president and so they're

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Speaker 1: trying to establish an airway that implies that they thought

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Speaker 1: that there might be a glimmer of hope. I mean, who,

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Speaker 1: you know, what physician would want to be the person

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Speaker 1: to have to answer to the question of this is

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Speaker 1: our president, why didn't you try? And so that they're

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Speaker 1: faced with that, and I'm sure and they had to

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Speaker 1: have an awareness of that. I don't know about you, Dave.

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Speaker 1: I don't know that I could. I could necessarily stand

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Speaker 1: there and separate my clinical brain from just a person,

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Speaker 1: a citizen. And you're standing there over the body of

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Speaker 1: the president, guy that you've seen in the news, a

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Speaker 1: guy that you've read about in the papers, Camelot.

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Speaker 2: His wife is out in the hallway.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, how do you you know, how

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Speaker 1: is it that you do that well? In medicine?

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Speaker 2: I would not walk out of that room without being

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Speaker 2: able to say I did everything I knew and then

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Speaker 2: made some other stuff up.

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Speaker 1: Hope. Yeah, you're going to leave it all on the field,

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Speaker 1: you know, to use a sports metaphor, I mean, you

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Speaker 1: don't want to leave anything to question.

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Speaker 2: Which is why this bothers me so much that we

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Speaker 2: have so many questions that we ought not have sixty

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Speaker 2: years after the fact. There shouldn't be one question about

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Speaker 2: what happened to John Fitzgerald Kennedy, President of the United

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Speaker 2: States of America, leader of the free world, on November

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Speaker 2: twenty second, nineteen sixty three. There should not be one

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Speaker 2: thing we don't know.

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Speaker 1: Right you are, Dave, And I'll tell you who did

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Speaker 1: know something. It was doctor Earl Rose. He was that

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Speaker 1: one person. He was that He was that one individual,

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Speaker 1: you know, kind of crying in the dark there shouting

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Speaker 1: to whoever would listen, you need to stop. He was

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Speaker 1: their first warning along the way to all those in attendance.

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Speaker 1: If they had just listened to that man, instead of

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Speaker 1: pushing him against the wall, physically threatening him and then

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Speaker 1: out those doors with the President's body to get him

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Speaker 1: away from there and get him away from an actual

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Speaker 1: suitable autopsy. He was that first warning along the way,

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Speaker 1: and they failed to listen to him. Earl Rose knew

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Speaker 1: that the president had been shot. He responded after the

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Speaker 1: code had been called an order, in other words, pronouncement

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Speaker 1: had taken place, priests had come down to give last rites.

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Speaker 1: He knew. Do you know why he knew, Dave? And

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Speaker 1: this is the one thing that really stands out in

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Speaker 1: my mind. Earl Rose was officed in the trauma center

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Speaker 1: at Parkland. A lot of people don't know that he

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Speaker 1: was literally across the hall and he knew what he

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Speaker 1: was looking at. He knew that he was looking at

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Speaker 1: though it was the President of the United States, he

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Speaker 1: knew that he was looking at a murder investigation. In

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Speaker 1: the business of death investigation, it is profoundly important that medical,

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Speaker 1: legal death investigators and forensic pathologists remain that calm, quiet

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Speaker 1: voice in the center of the storm where you bring

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Speaker 1: scientific reasoning to an otherwise chaotic environment. And I can't

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Speaker 1: begin to express to you, Dave. I know that I've

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Speaker 1: mentioned his name several times of what a significant moment

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Speaker 1: in time it was where you had this man standing

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Speaker 1: there telling them that is doctor Rose telling the Secret

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Speaker 1: Service and the aids of the President, telling them specifically

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Speaker 1: that by law, by law, this is a murdering investigation.

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Speaker 1: It has taken place in Dallas County, we have jurisdiction

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Speaker 1: over the body. And Earl Rose years later had said

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Speaker 1: that he did not want to create any more of

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Speaker 1: a stir in this environment that you know, he saw

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Speaker 1: that this thing was escalating beyond his control. And look,

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Speaker 1: I can't imagine what it would be like to try

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Speaker 1: to go toe to toe with the US Secret Service

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Speaker 1: and the authorities that have rolled into town, associated with

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Speaker 1: the highest echelons of the federal government. Are you going

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Speaker 1: to be that person? I don't know that I could

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Speaker 1: have been. But he warned them. He warned him because

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Speaker 1: he knew the law. He knew the law in his

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Speaker 1: little area of expertise, which is medical legal death investing.

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Speaker 2: Right, so he warns them that what they're about to

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Speaker 2: do is wrong. They're going to do it anyway. But

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Speaker 2: for those of us who don't understand Joe, it seemed

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Speaker 2: to me when I was growing up that to take

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Speaker 2: the president's body because he is the president of the

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Speaker 2: United States of America, what has happened is a national

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Speaker 2: tragedy that his autopsy ought not be left to a

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Speaker 2: local jurisdiction. It ought to go back to Washington, d C.

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Speaker 2: And be dealt with either I'm thinking Walter Read or

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Speaker 2: Bethesda something. Probably Bethesta because he was a navy man.

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Speaker 2: But you know, that's what I was thinking along those

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Speaker 2: lines as the president and all that. But in reality,

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Speaker 2: there's a reason that's not the case. There's a time

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Speaker 2: period here there, you do, You doesn't the time of

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Speaker 2: when you're when you're examining the body of the of

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Speaker 2: this victim. Now we are dealing with a murder victim,

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Speaker 2: and it is a murder that has taken place. It's

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Speaker 2: got to be solved. A trial would take place in Dallas.

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Speaker 2: I mean, this is still regardless of who's killed, it

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Speaker 2: is still a local crime, correct.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah. Do you know that there was not a

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Speaker 1: statute on federal books until sixty five that made the

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Speaker 1: assassination of a president of federal offense, So there was

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Speaker 1: not actually a law in the books relative to this,

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Speaker 1: And that's isn't that odd? Because you know, prior to Kennedy,

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Speaker 1: we'd had we talked about President Lincoln. We had Garfield

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Speaker 1: who was shot, you know in the train station, and

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Speaker 1: then we had President McKinley, so we had a history,

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Speaker 1: you know, we had a history. And every all, all

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Speaker 1: four of these men died as a result of gunshot wounds,

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Speaker 1: and the people that were involved in their examinations had

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Speaker 1: always consistently been the military up all the way through McKinley.

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Speaker 1: McKinley's autopsy was very thorough. I mean it was for

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Speaker 1: their time. It was a well done autopsy. I'm thinking

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Speaker 1: back right now. Lincoln's was only a partial. They essentially

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Speaker 1: examined his head. James Garfield, who probably not to make light,

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Speaker 1: but President Garfield died more as a result of his

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Speaker 1: treatment that he received.

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Speaker 2: Treatment, because he lived for a while. He lived for

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Speaker 2: a while and wrote letters while after he was shot.

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Speaker 2: He wrote letters of how he was doing.

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Speaker 1: Just utter agony. And X rays played played a role

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Speaker 1: in his case, just like they play a role in

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Speaker 1: President Kennedy's death because I think it was Alexander Graham

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Speaker 1: Bell introduced the first use of an X ray machine

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Speaker 1: relative to Garfield to try to locate this projectile that was,

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Speaker 1: you know, still lodged in his body. And what's interesting

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Speaker 1: is they when President Garfield was autopsy, they actually took

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Speaker 1: out that segment of his spine, and they still have

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Speaker 1: that segment of his spine, which I've always found quite

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Speaker 1: fascinating as well. So, yeah, that we it's not like

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Speaker 1: it's not like we don't have a history.

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Speaker 2: There was president Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there was and still this this this had not

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Speaker 1: been cured. And let me just interject something here. Personally,

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Speaker 1: I don't have a lot of patience with people Dave

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Speaker 1: that that say things like, well, it was a different

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Speaker 1: time back then, and their ways were not necessarily the

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Speaker 1: ways of that we understand today. Well, let me break

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Speaker 1: this down to you. Doctor Earl Rose actually wound up

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Speaker 1: doing the autopsy on Lee Harvey Oswald, who was the

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Speaker 1: alleged assassin. Remember he never went to trial. And in

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Speaker 1: addition to that, doctor Rose also did the autopsy on

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Speaker 1: Officer Tibbets, who had allegedly died at the hand of

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Speaker 1: Lee Harvey Oswald. And on top of that, he did

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Speaker 1: the autopsy on Ruby, who died in custody there in

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Speaker 1: Dallas as well. So he's connected with all those But

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Speaker 1: but yet, when you have the catalyst that kicked this

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Speaker 1: whole thing off with the death of the president, he's

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Speaker 1: on the outside looking in and that's what's that is

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Speaker 1: what the real tragedy is here. The Secret Service are

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Speaker 1: not you know, granted, they've got a long history, and

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Speaker 1: their main purpose when they were established, I think in

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Speaker 1: the eighteen seventies or whatever it was was not personal

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Speaker 1: security for the president and the higher ups in government.

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Speaker 1: It was to fight counterfeiting. And in that area they're

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Speaker 1: fantastic investigators. But back then they're not homicide investigators. That's

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Speaker 1: not what they do. It's a specific skill set.

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Speaker 2: But Joe, let me just the people that actually did

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Speaker 2: the autopsy. Once they broke all the laws in Dallas, Texas,

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Speaker 2: once they ruined the investigation and they loaded the body

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Speaker 2: on the airplane to take it out of love Field

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Speaker 2: where he had landed. We've got the picture of Johnson

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Speaker 2: being sworn in by a judge he appointed, and we've

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Speaker 2: got Jackie standing there in her bloody outfit basically passing

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Speaker 2: the torch giving her approval. So there wouldn't be any

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Speaker 2: question they did that on the plane in Dallas before

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Speaker 2: they left and got in the air they fly the

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Speaker 2: body back to Washington, d C. I'm going to assume

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Speaker 2: that whoever is waiting on this in Washington, DC is

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Speaker 2: going to be a better, better trained, better doc, better

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Speaker 2: path thought, better everything than what was existing in Dallas,

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Speaker 2: Texas at the time. That's my assumption. That's why they're

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Speaker 2: doing it. Is that the case.

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Speaker 1: You know what they say about assumptions, and that that's

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Speaker 1: what we're faced with, Dave, and I think that a

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Speaker 1: lot of the general public thinks, oh my gosh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: let's get him, let's get him back to DC. Well,

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Speaker 1: first off, here's the problem. According to what was what

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Speaker 1: has been put forth over all the years. And I

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Speaker 1: find this very interesting. You're talking about the homicide of

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Speaker 1: a president, the murder of a president, and he was

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Speaker 1: not just Jackie Kennedy's husband, he was our president. So

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Speaker 1: it has been stated that it was the wishes of

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Speaker 1: the widow for President Kennedy's body to go to Bethesda

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Speaker 1: because it was a naval hospital. Okay, And so what

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Speaker 1: difference does that make Because at Bethesda you don't have

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Speaker 1: any forensic pathologists, but within a stone's throw of Bethesda

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Speaker 1: you have Walter Reid. Well, guess what's housed at Walter

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Speaker 1: Reed the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology. Guess what's contained

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Speaker 1: within there? The Armed Forces version their division of Forensic Pathology.

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Speaker 1: They they actually had established the af I P I

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Speaker 1: think in uh just in the in the years just

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Speaker 1: after World War Two. And as a matter of fact,

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Speaker 1: doctor Ed Johnson, who was a colonel in the Army,

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Speaker 1: he was head DAVE of forensic Pathology. He was right

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Speaker 1: down the road from his place. But yet they chose

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Speaker 1: to have to completely unqualified naval physicians at Bethesda do

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Speaker 1: the autopsy. They had never either one of them, when

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Speaker 1: we get their name straight, it was Humes and Boswell.

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Speaker 1: They were both naval physicians. They were pathologists working at

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Speaker 1: Bethesda doing what naval pathologists at a hospital. Do you

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Speaker 1: know what that is? Looking at tumors and making diagnoses

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Speaker 1: on surgical specimens that are coming in and oh yet

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Speaker 1: managing the lab. Notice nothing in that description I just

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Speaker 1: gave you qualifies them to do forensic pathology. And as

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Speaker 1: it turns out, neither one of them had ever even

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Speaker 1: done a forensic autopsy period. And so you're going to trust,

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Speaker 1: arguably what turns out to be the most complicated, complex

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Speaker 1: homicide investigation that is now being performed on a body

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Speaker 1: that has been removed from the jurisdiction where it occurred

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Speaker 1: in a location that is, I don't know, just over

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Speaker 1: one thousand miles away. You had to take the body

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Speaker 1: there to have it done by two unqualified people. And

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Speaker 1: just to give you like a little aside about this,

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Speaker 1: many times what happens with a medical examiner's office is

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Speaker 1: that when you're working there and you have a trauma

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Speaker 1: case that rolls into like a major emergency room, it

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Speaker 1: doesn't have to be a major, it can be any

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Speaker 1: emergency room the corner or the medical examiner. First off,

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Speaker 1: you'll go to the hospital to examine the body and

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Speaker 1: interview the physicians that did the treatment. It wasn't until

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Speaker 1: the next morning that these two people that did the

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Speaker 1: autopsy on the president's body at Bethesda actually spoke with

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Speaker 1: the doctors at Parkland who had rendered treatment to the president.

432
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 1: At that moment time, they didn't have a frame of

433
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 1: reference about the now infamous tracheostomy site. And people say, well,

434
00:27:55,520 --> 00:28:00,200
Speaker 1: why would why would they create a tracheostomy where you've

435
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 1: got a gunshot wound. Well, here's why you do it

436
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 1: that way. If it's in a position and this happens

437
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:08,399
Speaker 1: with some great frequency, and I can tell you why

438
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 1: this happens many times, So that they don't have to

439
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 1: traumatize the body further. All right, So you've got a hole,

440
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 1: if you will, a bullet hole that's just off center.

441
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 1: If people will find their larynings and kind of find

442
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 1: where the Adams apple would be and just go slightly

443
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,240
Speaker 1: below that area right there, and it's just off center

444
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:36,440
Speaker 1: where this defect was, they created a tracheostom site where

445
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 1: they could get an airway established. Now, this happens a lot.

446
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 1: People don't realize this. You have gunshot wounds to the chest.

447
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 1: For instance, people will uh the physicians in the trauma

448
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 1: room will actually use a gunshot wound that's existing in

449
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 1: the chest to create they'll open it up further to

450
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 1: put a chest tube in to get the blood out

451
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 1: of the chest. They'll do this a lot. It's not

452
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 1: that this is an uncommon occurrence, but with Humes and Boswel,

453
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 1: they had no history whatsoever of assessing trauma, ballistic trauma,

454
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 1: particularly at that point in time. So when they're looking

455
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:16,720
Speaker 1: at this defect in the mid line of the neck

456
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 1: that they know is in fact, they believe at least

457
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 1: is a gunshot wound, they they can't factor that into

458
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 1: their thinking when they're doing their initial exam and of

459
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 1: course that's the most important thing, and because you lose

460
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 1: all frame of reference and the other thing that was

461
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 1: really odd about this case from just a practitioner standpoint,

462
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 1: when Boswel and Hume saw the body of the president,

463
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 1: when they initially opened up this casket that had like

464
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 1: a broken handle on it and all this stuff, body

465
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 1: was not in a body bag body. They described the

466
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 1: body as being swaddled, which means it was wrapped in sheets,

467
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 1: and the president had a big bandage over his head,

468
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 1: which is not uncommon. I mean, they'll do that with

469
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 1: these gaping gunshot wounds. They'll wrap gauze around the head,

470
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 1: that sort of thing to keep anything from kind of

471
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 1: falling falling out. Ideally, you would want the body they

472
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 1: called them, they didn't call them body bags back then,

473
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 1: they called them disaster pouches. You would want to be

474
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 1: able to do that. But they didn't apparently choose to

475
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 1: do that. They merely put him in the casket. They

476
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 1: when the president's body arrived at Bethesda, when they unswaddled

477
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 1: the body, he was nude. There was no clothing with

478
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 1: the body. And one of the big things that came

479
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 1: up over the years, is that I beg everyone that's

480
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 1: listening to this, when you take a look at the

481
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 1: president's suit he's wearing the president, you know, you get

482
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 1: pictures of him when he's in you know, Martha's vineyard

483
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 1: with the family, and he's wearing an open collar. This

484
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 1: man never went anywhere without a tie on, particularly in

485
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 1: a formal setting. He's riding in a motorcade. This is

486
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 1: a campaign. The fact that he had a tie on

487
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 1: and he sustained this gunshot wound to the back of

488
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 1: the neck that impacted literally the trajectory of this round

489
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 1: because that's what's referred to as a shored s h

490
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 1: u r ed wound. There's a lot of tension placed

491
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 1: over this area, so they could not appreciate what defects

492
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 1: there were in the clothing at that moment time. And

493
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 1: it's my understanding that they never actually saw the clothing

494
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 1: until I might have my date trong. It seems like

495
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty six is the first time that they ever

496
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 1: saw the president's clothing. And it's international archives, so.

497
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 2: This is after the Warring Commission has come out with

498
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 2: its document on what they say happened, but they still

499
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 2: have not even touched the clothing at it up with

500
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 2: the wounds they saw. Now you mentioned that that tracheotomy,

501
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 2: that the bullet wound. If you had the shirt and

502
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 2: the you know where it's button, with the tie and

503
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 2: all that, what would you be able to tell from that?

504
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 1: It would be significant because you can track, you can listen.

505
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 1: Clothing moves independent. I don't care how tight your clothing is.

506
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 1: The clothing moves independent of the exterior of your body,

507
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 1: all right. That goes without saying. It doesn't matter how

508
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 1: tight your vestments are that you have on. And one

509
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 1: of the things that is brought up by Humes and

510
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 1: Boswel is that when the president is sitting in the car,

511
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 1: and we've seen him been there's images of him even

512
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 1: in the early part of the Suppruder film, his hand

513
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 1: is raised and he's waving. That's what politicians do in

514
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 1: the back of cars. They're trying to make a connection

515
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 1: with the crowd. Well, think about raising your arm and

516
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 1: you're wearing a shirt or maybe you're wearing a jacket

517
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 1: right now as you're listening to this, your your clothing

518
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 1: will act adjust according to the movement of your arms.

519
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 1: So you're guys that wear sports coats I know, I

520
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 1: have to wear them on air a lot. They bunch

521
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 1: up in the back, you'll create like a crease back there.

522
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 1: And so if you don't have a full appreciation of

523
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 1: the position of the individual in the vehicle and to

524
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 1: try to understand where they were relative to all the

525
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 1: other individuals in the car, and also the relationship of

526
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 1: the antier side of the body the neck where you

527
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 1: have this collared shirt, you lose all perspective. And remember this,

528
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 1: this bullet now that we're talking about is also known.

529
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:39,719
Speaker 2: As the magic bullet.

530
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 1: And this is going to go on to create I

531
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 1: don't know, I think it's seven other wounds or something

532
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 1: like this. And the governor's uh, the governor's body.

533
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 2: It goes into JFK's upper back correct, Yeah, comes out

534
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 2: his throat, makes a right hand turn into his right arm,

535
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 2: It goes into.

536
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 1: It goes into connolly and and goes through his rib

537
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 1: and he's seated in a jump seat. That is actually

538
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 1: the pictures are are deceptive that you see it.

539
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 2: They are those jumpsies are not sitting directly in front

540
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:10,839
Speaker 2: of one another, and they're not Watch his hand, watch

541
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,400
Speaker 2: his hand on the hat. That gives you an idea

542
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:14,720
Speaker 2: of what's going on and when Yeah.

543
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 1: And the trajectory when that bullet exits the President's throat,

544
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,800
Speaker 1: it does strike Conley, and so it's going to take out,

545
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:25,400
Speaker 1: you know, I think one of his ribs. It's gonna

546
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 1: go down and shatter, you know, his wrist, and eventually

547
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 1: it's going to come to rest in his left inner thigh.

548
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 1: So you've got this scene creating like seven different defects

549
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 1: and making crazy turns and all that sort of stuff

550
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 1: that many people have opined about over the years. But

551
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 1: just the clothing alone, and not having access to that

552
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 1: clothing to examine it contextually relative to the injuries that

553
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 1: you're seeing on the body, It's quite an amazing thing.

554
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 1: And you know, back in Dallas, you've still got an

555
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 1: active crime scene back there. And David, I got to

556
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:05,320
Speaker 1: tell you one thing here that one image has always

557
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 1: has always struck me going back to Parkland thinking about this,

558
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 1: and I listen, don't believe anything I'm saying. Go look

559
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:15,760
Speaker 1: it up yourself, is what I'm saying to my audience

560
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 1: right now. There's an image of a what appears to

561
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 1: be a Secret Service agent in the ambulance bay adjacent

562
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 1: to the Presidential limo. They have taken the trunk is

563
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:31,600
Speaker 1: open on the car. They have taken this the bubbletop out.

564
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:35,279
Speaker 1: Apparently it would fit back there. They've got the bubbletop

565
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 1: now in place on top of the car. They're standing

566
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 1: there day with a stainless steel bucket and they're washing

567
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:48,839
Speaker 1: out the interior of that car at Parkland. And if

568
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 1: you don't believe me, everybody go look at it. It's

569
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 1: out there. There's an image of this taking place. And

570
00:35:54,000 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 1: so that car, that car is a crime scene. That

571
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 1: car is a crime scene. As a matter of fact,

572
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:07,279
Speaker 1: the whole damn Dealey Plaza was a crime scene, but

573
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 1: it was not locked down. There were still two bone

574
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 1: fragments that were found later on that had to be

575
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:21,759
Speaker 1: brought to Bethesda to be examined that were not discovered

576
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 1: at that period of time. And those are key because

577
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 1: what you're talking about is when you begin to think

578
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,760
Speaker 1: about wom ballistics, particularly as they apply to the head

579
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,759
Speaker 1: to piece together this fragment it skull, and trust me,

580
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:37,840
Speaker 1: it was fragmented. You're talking about a six point five

581
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 1: millimeter military round that delivers an incredible punch. Here. If

582
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 1: you're just talking about the krcano round alone or any

583
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:53,400
Speaker 1: kind of high end, high velocity round, the skull is

584
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 1: going to fragment, and it's in multiple pieces. Even Humes

585
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 1: and Bobs will talk about when they they didn't even

586
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 1: have to use the saw on the President's skull to

587
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 1: open it up, that when they reflected the scalp, the

588
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:07,960
Speaker 1: skull was particulate, came a part in their hands. So

589
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:09,840
Speaker 1: when you're trying to assess the skull, one of the

590
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 1: things that you look for is internal and external beveling,

591
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:16,480
Speaker 1: and that gives you an indication of where a bullet

592
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:20,319
Speaker 1: entered entered the skull. It's just like throwing a rock

593
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:22,400
Speaker 1: through a piece of glass. One side's going to be

594
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:24,719
Speaker 1: smooth and then the other side is not going to

595
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 1: be smooth. And that's one of the things we look for.

596
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 1: But unfortunately, I think a lot of evidence was left behind,

597
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 1: and now unfortunately we're so far down the tracks, Dave,

598
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 1: that I don't know that we'll ever be able to

599
00:37:38,120 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 1: answer some of these questions. Assessment without an assessment, in

600
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 1: any kind of homicide case, when you cannot gather the

601
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 1: facts appropriately from the beginning, you can lose so much

602
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:25,920
Speaker 1: and the fact that you take arguably one of the

603
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:33,760
Speaker 1: most complex homicide cases that has been on our radar

604
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 1: now for sixty years, in the past sixty years, and

605
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 1: you throw it into the sea of chaos, this political

606
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,840
Speaker 1: world that's all churned up. It's a recipe for a disaster.

607
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:51,319
Speaker 1: And when the president's body arrived in Bethesda that night

608
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:54,720
Speaker 1: on Air Force one, with a newly sworn in president

609
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 1: and a grieving widow, it seems as though that whoever

610
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 1: in charge didn't know what they were doing. I think

611
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:10,760
Speaker 1: that that's as kind as I can be with that statement,

612
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:15,839
Speaker 1: because it was at that moment time you needed to

613
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 1: have someone that was fully in charge of their faculties

614
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:25,120
Speaker 1: trying to understand how to direct people, what people should do.

615
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,399
Speaker 1: And one of the measures of that, when you think

616
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 1: about forensics is you have to know your limitations, and

617
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:39,799
Speaker 1: if you don't know what to do, you defer to

618
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 1: those individuals that do have specific knowledge about forensic science,

619
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 1: and you defer to them and let them handle it.

620
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:49,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, the President of the United States of America, they're

621
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 2: trying to rush an autopsy out of state and get

622
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 2: it done as quickly as they can, trying to find

623
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:54,920
Speaker 2: a bullet. That's what it amounts to do.

624
00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:56,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, isn't that something?

625
00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:58,719
Speaker 2: How do you know? How can you tell where the

626
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:01,279
Speaker 2: bullet entered when it's already in that I mean, they

627
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 2: don't look at it the right way, You don't Where

628
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 2: do you start with that? If it was done the

629
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 2: right way, where would you start? Joe?

630
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:11,239
Speaker 1: Well, the most important thing in a case like this,

631
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:16,240
Speaker 1: and just not just not just from trying to track things,

632
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 1: but also a documentary perspective, are X rays. And they

633
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 1: did do X rays, and there's been a lot of

634
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:24,319
Speaker 1: questions about the quality of the X rays that they had.

635
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 1: And again, the technology then is not necessarily what it

636
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:32,759
Speaker 1: is today. That's not an excuse. It's just that things

637
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 1: have been fine tuned since then. We have an expectation

638
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 1: now with the way we do X rays, they're much

639
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 1: more fine tuned. If you've got this radio opaque bodies

640
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:46,479
Speaker 1: that are along the wound track, you can really pick

641
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 1: up a lot of the little nuanced areas. Back then,

642
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:52,920
Speaker 1: you necessarily you could not necessarily pick them up the

643
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:54,920
Speaker 1: way you can now. You could see it, but it

644
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 1: wasn't in as fine and detail. So X rays are

645
00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:00,759
Speaker 1: where you start before you ever do anything. And I

646
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:05,880
Speaker 1: question even how those X rays were performed, you know,

647
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:08,319
Speaker 1: on the President's body. You know, I talked a little

648
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:10,839
Speaker 1: while ago about the body being swaddled in that sort

649
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:14,279
Speaker 1: of thing. I really wonder if those X rays were

650
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 1: done prior to his head being unwound with the bandages

651
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:25,360
Speaker 1: they had on there. And let me back up just

652
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 1: for a second here, when you begin to think about

653
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 1: what was going on at this historic moment in time,

654
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 1: when you've got the body of the commander in chief

655
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:41,960
Speaker 1: laying there in this autopsy suite in Bethesda. They've got

656
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 1: a this is a teaching area. They've actually got grand

657
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 1: stands in here, so there are seats for people to observe.

658
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:56,239
Speaker 1: There have been some estimates that they're at any one

659
00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 1: time there could have been up to thirty two people

660
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:01,400
Speaker 1: in this room. So you're you, as a physician and

661
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:05,560
Speaker 1: an experienced physician in the area of forensic pathology, you're

662
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:08,720
Speaker 1: trying to perform a task that you've never performed before

663
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 1: in front of a live audience on the body of

664
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:16,479
Speaker 1: the leader of the free world. Just let that sink

665
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:20,479
Speaker 1: in just for a second. You know, I've been around

666
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:24,279
Speaker 1: a lot of friends of pathologists in my lifetime. I've

667
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:26,960
Speaker 1: been very fortunate and blessed to have said it at

668
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 1: the feet of some pretty learned, learned folks. And one

669
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:36,600
Speaker 1: thing you always knew was that there was a master

670
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:39,880
Speaker 1: and commander in that room, that they were in charge,

671
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:41,960
Speaker 1: and by God, no one else was to be in

672
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 1: their period, end of story. And that was not the

673
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 1: case in that environment. And Humes and Bosle both have

674
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:53,799
Speaker 1: stated that there was nobody else giving them direction in

675
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 1: that room. Maybe that's maybe that's so, But Dave, I

676
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:00,799
Speaker 1: know that you've had an experience, I'm sure in your

677
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:03,799
Speaker 1: life where you don't have to have anything said to you.

678
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 1: Merely a look, and you're talking about a military organization here,

679
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 1: Merely a look can convey volumes to you within this environment.

680
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 1: And so they're having to contend with this highly highly

681
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:23,319
Speaker 1: technical undertaking and they're doing it under a microscope here,

682
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:31,840
Speaker 1: and it's they even they realized, I think they be

683
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:35,960
Speaker 1: in Basle and Humes realized that they were out of

684
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 1: their depths. And here's why I know this. They reached

685
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:43,920
Speaker 1: out knowing that there was an autopsy that would be

686
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:51,359
Speaker 1: performed to AFIP Armforces Institute of Pathology, and they sent

687
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:56,160
Speaker 1: over doctor Pierre Fink. Now, people might not be familiar

688
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:59,400
Speaker 1: with doctor Fink, but doctor Fink was a forendsic.

689
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:01,320
Speaker 2: Pathologist, ballistic expert.

690
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:06,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was actually present in the room and his

691
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:09,279
Speaker 1: his area of expertise is actually wound ballistics. So you've

692
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:12,800
Speaker 1: heard about all of the studies that have been hinted

693
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 1: at over the years where the army, the military would

694
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:23,720
Speaker 1: conduct ballistic test on cadavers, that sort of thing. He's

695
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:29,120
Speaker 1: the guy that would would look and assess the bodies

696
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 1: that had been shot, whether they you know, primarily animals,

697
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:37,000
Speaker 1: to try to determine the effectiveness of weaponry at that

698
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:40,360
Speaker 1: point in time. And so he he did come to

699
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 1: Bethesda that night. Here's the interesting little aside. Now, this

700
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:49,840
Speaker 1: guy who is I guess he is the gold standard

701
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 1: when it comes to ballistic assessment. Prior to him arriving,

702
00:44:56,040 --> 00:45:00,680
Speaker 1: Humes in Boswell had already removed the President's brain. It

703
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:04,160
Speaker 1: had already been taken out of the cranial vault at

704
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 1: that moment time. And you know, according to their reports,

705
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:11,840
Speaker 1: they took the brain and placed it in formulae to

706
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:16,960
Speaker 1: fix it. Because you don't with brains, brains are they're

707
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:21,239
Speaker 1: an interest. They have an interesting consistency there. It's not

708
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 1: as soft as like a jello. Okay, it's a bit

709
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 1: firmer than that. But in order to dissect a brain,

710
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:30,319
Speaker 1: it needs to be firm. So what we normally do

711
00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:34,280
Speaker 1: at autopsy many times is you will take the brain

712
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:38,200
Speaker 1: and we have a way of anchoring it with strings

713
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:40,840
Speaker 1: through there's a little nerve bundle at the base of

714
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 1: the brain where the optic nerves come out and all

715
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:46,240
Speaker 1: this sort of thing, and we can suspend the brain

716
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:49,320
Speaker 1: in a bucket of formulaine, which is a type of formaldehyde,

717
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:51,640
Speaker 1: and it's being anchored in there with strings, so it's

718
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:54,400
Speaker 1: kind of floating in this big bucket and you let

719
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:56,520
Speaker 1: it set. Some people will let it set up to

720
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:58,840
Speaker 1: two weeks. And so when you take finally take the

721
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:02,760
Speaker 1: brain out of this bucket, it has a very firm,

722
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:06,839
Speaker 1: hard consistency. And so the dissection has done what it's

723
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 1: referred to as bread loafing. So you go from the

724
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:14,040
Speaker 1: frontal lobe lobes bilatterly of the brain and you slice

725
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:17,399
Speaker 1: like you're slicing a loaf of bread, and you can

726
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:21,360
Speaker 1: actually flip through it like book leaflets almost or slices

727
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 1: of bread, and you can appreciate each bit of trauma

728
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 1: along the way, well, that was the intent with this,

729
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:29,439
Speaker 1: but the brain had already been removed from the head

730
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:36,839
Speaker 1: prior to Fink arriving. What's so tragic about that is

731
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:42,000
Speaker 1: that doctor Fink, with his expertise, at least at minimum,

732
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:47,000
Speaker 1: he could have been standing there to see in context

733
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:50,239
Speaker 1: what the skull looked like, what the brain looked like

734
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:54,320
Speaker 1: within the skull, and to have been able to assess

735
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:56,720
Speaker 1: it before it was ever removed. As a matter of fact,

736
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:01,680
Speaker 1: if it were my autopsy, I would have automatically have

737
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:05,960
Speaker 1: deferred to doctor Fink and have said, man, you got

738
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:08,319
Speaker 1: your scrubs on, you got your gloves on, come on

739
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:10,520
Speaker 1: over here, man, we're gonna let you handle this part

740
00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:14,200
Speaker 1: of the dissection. Because you know, people look at the

741
00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:19,400
Speaker 1: President's autopsy and here's another thing that they don't really understand.

742
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 1: You know, his autopsy was not a complete autopsy. They

743
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:27,279
Speaker 1: examined the heart and the lungs, but nothing else was

744
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:29,719
Speaker 1: examined on the president's body. As a matter of fact,

745
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:34,000
Speaker 1: probably the most critical thing that still to this day,

746
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 1: it just absolutely just absolutely blows my mind. The president's

747
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:46,120
Speaker 1: neck was never dissected. So at autopsy, what we do

748
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:53,320
Speaker 1: is when we actually reflect, reflect the chest essentially is

749
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:55,839
Speaker 1: what we do. And we literally goes over the face

750
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 1: when we make the famous y incision that autopsies are

751
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:03,480
Speaker 1: known for. Go in then and dissect out the trachea

752
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:05,839
Speaker 1: out of the neck, I mean everything. We go all

753
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:08,920
Speaker 1: the way up to the tongue, remove everything down, and

754
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:11,239
Speaker 1: that way we can see all of the organs of

755
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 1: the neck. And there are multiple vessels that run through here.

756
00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 1: You have the trachia that runs through here, the larynx,

757
00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:20,400
Speaker 1: the tongue, all of the stuff that runs through here.

758
00:48:20,719 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 1: You want to be able to see behind those organs

759
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:25,520
Speaker 1: of the neck. You want to be able to see

760
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:29,399
Speaker 1: the structure of the final column at that point in time.

761
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know. To me, that's kind of critical.

762
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:35,440
Speaker 1: That was never done. And Humes was even quoted as

763
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:38,919
Speaker 1: saying that, let me see, let me get the phraseology

764
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:41,279
Speaker 1: right here. I don't want to misquote. He said. He

765
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:44,480
Speaker 1: said it would have been it would have been a crime.

766
00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:48,399
Speaker 1: It's a term he used to have dissected the president's neck.

767
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:51,719
Speaker 1: And I'm thinking, have you lost your mind? It would

768
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:53,920
Speaker 1: have been a crime to have dissected his neck. You're

769
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:57,239
Speaker 1: talking about an individual that had that You guys are saying,

770
00:48:57,239 --> 00:49:00,200
Speaker 1: it's got a bullet hole that is running through through

771
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 1: the neck and exits out of the front, and you

772
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:04,000
Speaker 1: think that it would be a crime to remove the

773
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 1: organs of the neck. Give me a break, Have you

774
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:09,799
Speaker 1: lost your mind? Yeah? And as it turns out, I

775
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:12,959
Speaker 1: think that that goes to the bigger picture here, where

776
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:15,760
Speaker 1: you're looking at this and you're thinking, you know, how

777
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:20,719
Speaker 1: could you you know, how could you have just kind

778
00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:25,000
Speaker 1: of taken this so lightly and not done your job?

779
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:30,239
Speaker 1: And again they defer back to the family's wishes. This

780
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:33,520
Speaker 1: is something I keep hearing all the way through, and

781
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:36,400
Speaker 1: it's kind of a weasel thing to say when you're

782
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:41,719
Speaker 1: in authority over an autopsy and certainly a homicide investigation

783
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:44,480
Speaker 1: of this magnitude, and you're saying, well, we're going to

784
00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:48,680
Speaker 1: stick with the family's wishes. But he was also everybody's president.

785
00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:55,400
Speaker 1: And now, sixty years later, because such a poor job

786
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:59,600
Speaker 1: was done, I don't know that, you know, looking back

787
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:01,920
Speaker 1: recor respectively, I think a lot of people would have

788
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:07,440
Speaker 1: wanted to have had a more thorough autopsy. You jump

789
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:10,399
Speaker 1: you jump forward, Dave, We'll see that was in sixty three.

790
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:14,920
Speaker 1: You jump forward to sixty eight, the President's the President's

791
00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:20,920
Speaker 1: brother Bobby was at the Ambassador. He had just given

792
00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:26,440
Speaker 1: this fantastic speech. He's going through the kitchen at the

793
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:31,360
Speaker 1: Ambassador Hotel and he is assassinated by Sir and Suren.

794
00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:35,840
Speaker 1: And to give you an idea how how much things

795
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:39,160
Speaker 1: had changed between sixty three and sixty eight. As you

796
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:42,440
Speaker 1: well know, that took place in Los Angeles County. Well,

797
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:45,680
Speaker 1: who was the chief medical examiner slash corner. It was

798
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:48,680
Speaker 1: doctor Tom to get He's one of my heroes, as

799
00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:53,640
Speaker 1: you know. And the family had told the folks with

800
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:56,959
Speaker 1: LA County at that point in time, look up, Yeah,

801
00:50:57,200 --> 00:51:00,799
Speaker 1: we don't really need need the autopsy. We know what

802
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:03,719
Speaker 1: killed him. Doctor Nogucci said, you know what, I think.

803
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 1: We're going to go ahead and do an autopsy, and

804
00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:09,680
Speaker 1: not only going to do it, but when I do it,

805
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:12,600
Speaker 1: I'm going to have like five forensic pathologists in the

806
00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:15,320
Speaker 1: room with me. He actually to show you how thorough,

807
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:21,560
Speaker 1: doctor Noguchu. And just so the people understand, Bobby Kennedy's

808
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:24,880
Speaker 1: autopsy has been named in it has been cited a

809
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:28,920
Speaker 1: couple of times as the most thorough forensic autopsy that's

810
00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:32,080
Speaker 1: ever been conducted. Just let that sink in compared to

811
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:37,279
Speaker 1: what happened to the President's body. Forensic pathology, medical, legal

812
00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:40,520
Speaker 1: death of us such a small community, even though we

813
00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:44,479
Speaker 1: didn't know in sixty eight what we know now. People talk,

814
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:48,560
Speaker 1: all right, and Nogucci would have been fully aware of

815
00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:52,440
Speaker 1: the rumor mial. He would have heard about what had

816
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:56,280
Speaker 1: gone on in Bethesda that night. He not only reached

817
00:51:56,280 --> 00:52:00,840
Speaker 1: out to a FIP and had them send people. Doctor

818
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:06,920
Speaker 1: Fink was present for Bobby's autopsy in LA. That's quite

819
00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:12,439
Speaker 1: fascinating when you look at that, you know, in its totality,

820
00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:17,160
Speaker 1: you think about how much the how much things had

821
00:52:17,239 --> 00:52:23,640
Speaker 1: changed just in that period of time. And I never

822
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:26,319
Speaker 1: want to hear anybody say that, you know that they

823
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:30,840
Speaker 1: didn't know any better at the time of the President's assassination,

824
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:34,319
Speaker 1: that it was you know, well, one pathologist is just

825
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:37,799
Speaker 1: as good as any other pathologists. No, that's not the case,

826
00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:42,880
Speaker 1: because Earl Rose had been doing homicide autopsies in Dallas. Uh,

827
00:52:43,239 --> 00:52:47,640
Speaker 1: there were as a matter of fact, let's just say

828
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:51,160
Speaker 1: for the sake of argument that, okay, going back to

829
00:52:51,239 --> 00:52:55,040
Speaker 1: d C with the President's remains was a good idea

830
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:57,960
Speaker 1: which you could never convince me that it is or

831
00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:06,600
Speaker 1: was within an hour, within an hour's plane flight, you

832
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:09,600
Speaker 1: could have had, arguably at that point time in sixty three,

833
00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:13,920
Speaker 1: you could have had the top forensic pathologist in the

834
00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:18,840
Speaker 1: country standing in DC there to do that autopsy. But

835
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:24,000
Speaker 1: yet you choose to go down this path utilizing two

836
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:29,799
Speaker 1: naval physicians who I'm sure were fine hospital pathologists, but

837
00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:35,200
Speaker 1: not for this particular case. You could have had Milton Helpern.

838
00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:39,319
Speaker 1: You could have had doctor Fisher who was in Baltimore.

839
00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:42,680
Speaker 1: You could have had Werner Spitz who was in Detroit.

840
00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:47,520
Speaker 1: You could have had literally a pantheon. There's a pantheon

841
00:53:47,640 --> 00:53:51,399
Speaker 1: of these forensic pathologists that are out there that were

842
00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:54,759
Speaker 1: practicing at the time that now we look back and

843
00:53:54,840 --> 00:53:58,200
Speaker 1: if in forensic pathology, if we had a mount rushmore,

844
00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:02,440
Speaker 1: these guys' faces would be on it. But yet you

845
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:05,120
Speaker 1: chose not to do that. You chose to go down

846
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:08,080
Speaker 1: this path. And this is, you know, my my little

847
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:10,440
Speaker 1: slice of the pie here from a medical legal standpoint,

848
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:14,560
Speaker 1: it's just a small portion of the overall case, you know,

849
00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:17,439
Speaker 1: relative to how the president's murder was handled. I hate

850
00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:21,120
Speaker 1: calling an assassination. Yeah it was an assassination, but that's

851
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:23,520
Speaker 1: such a political term. At the end of the day,

852
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:26,960
Speaker 1: you're talking about a murder, a murder that occurred in

853
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:28,360
Speaker 1: Dallas County, Texas.

854
00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:31,240
Speaker 2: A husband and father was taken away from his family

855
00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:35,320
Speaker 2: and they didn't get answers. They had to have been haunted.

856
00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:37,480
Speaker 2: But Joe, this is one of the things that goes

857
00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:40,320
Speaker 2: that feeds the conspiracy. I want to ask you about

858
00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:43,719
Speaker 2: the wounds. Were any of the other wounds he's sustained.

859
00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:47,120
Speaker 2: Were they life threatening other than the headshot? Was the

860
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:49,280
Speaker 2: back the shot to the back? Was it deadly?

861
00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:53,600
Speaker 1: I don't, well, Gee, Dave, I don't know because the

862
00:54:53,719 --> 00:54:59,680
Speaker 1: neck wasn't dissected, you know. And again, I know, you

863
00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:03,960
Speaker 1: know I'm being flipped by saying that, But you know,

864
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:06,759
Speaker 1: when you know, I would love to be able to

865
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:10,320
Speaker 1: answer that question, and I think that many people would

866
00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:14,200
Speaker 1: would like an answer to that question definitively. But if

867
00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:18,160
Speaker 1: you're looking at this from the perspective of, you know,

868
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:21,200
Speaker 1: gee whiz, I wish we had time to go back

869
00:55:21,200 --> 00:55:23,520
Speaker 1: and get a do over. There are no mulligans in

870
00:55:23,560 --> 00:55:26,640
Speaker 1: forensic pathology. You don't get a do over. You get

871
00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:31,040
Speaker 1: to do it the first time. When people are quick

872
00:55:31,080 --> 00:55:34,239
Speaker 1: to say again, I have to emphasize this point. Well,

873
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:38,600
Speaker 1: they didn't do things back then like they do them now.

874
00:55:38,680 --> 00:55:42,600
Speaker 1: It's unfair to judge that they were talking about we're

875
00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:46,160
Speaker 1: talking about the same generation that within five years would

876
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:48,520
Speaker 1: put a man on the moon. Are you kidding me?

877
00:55:49,320 --> 00:55:54,799
Speaker 1: You're not intellectually sophisticated enough, medically sophisticated enough at this

878
00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:57,040
Speaker 1: point in time to understand the gravity of what you're

879
00:55:57,040 --> 00:55:59,920
Speaker 1: in the middle of that you're going to allow people

880
00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:03,560
Speaker 1: to make decisions driven by emotion at that moment, Tom

881
00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:06,640
Speaker 1: is beyond the pale. I don't think that there's any

882
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:09,640
Speaker 1: There was no excuses then, there's still no excuses today

883
00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:14,560
Speaker 1: for it, because now you've left this generation and generations

884
00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:18,399
Speaker 1: to come without any solid answers. And Dave, I don't

885
00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:22,560
Speaker 1: know that we'll ever have any conclusive answers as time

886
00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:28,319
Speaker 1: goes on. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks