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Speaker 1: Brought to you by Bank of America. Meryll Lynch Seeing

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Speaker 1: what others have seen, but uncovering what others may not.

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Speaker 1: Global Research that helps you harness disruption voted top global

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Speaker 1: research from five years running. Merrill Lynch, Pierce, Fenner, and

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Speaker 1: Smith incorporated Trump's campaign platform basically talking about the Chinese

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Speaker 1: raping the United States, and you know, and and this

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Speaker 1: whole idea that China simply you know, ripping American is

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Speaker 1: off by by making cheap goods. It ties into this

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Speaker 1: American idea that we've had about China since the nineteenth century, when,

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Speaker 1: for example, the Workingman's Party in California was hugely influential,

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Speaker 1: and their argument was that Chinese migrants in America were

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Speaker 1: ripping off the white working man because they weren't willing

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Speaker 1: to be union members, and they worked harder, and they

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Speaker 1: out competed the white man. Well. For the Bloombug Benchmark,

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Speaker 1: a podcast about the global economy, I'm Daniel Bloomberg's executive

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Speaker 1: editor for Global Economics in New York, and I'm Scott Landman,

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Speaker 1: Economics editor with Bloomberg in Washington. Taiwan Tariff's currency manipulation.

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Speaker 1: President elect Trump has had plenty to say about America's

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Speaker 1: largest trading pot, little of it flattering. A cursory glance

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Speaker 1: at recent headlines, Sorry Mike that tweets might lead a

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Speaker 1: reasonable person to think we are headed into perilously unshotted territories.

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Speaker 1: But as our guest today has written, it's all part

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Speaker 1: of the ebb and flow, the surge and retreat in

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Speaker 1: relations between China and the U S that go back

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Speaker 1: more than two hundred years. John Pomfret is the author

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Speaker 1: of a new book called The Beautiful Country and the

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Speaker 1: Middle Kingdom. Those are the names of America and China

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Speaker 1: has translated from Chinese, and the book charts American ties

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Speaker 1: with China going all the way back to the time

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Speaker 1: of the American Revolution. John, thank you for joining us.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so mux for having me and John, you're more

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Speaker 1: than just an author for our listeners. You were a

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Speaker 1: long time Washington Post correspondent in Beijing and one of

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Speaker 1: the first American students into China once relations were normalized.

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Speaker 1: Is that correct? Yes, I first went to China and

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Speaker 1: when I was twenty one in nineteen eighty That dates

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Speaker 1: me a little. I lived in a ten by fifteen

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Speaker 1: foot room with seven Chinese classmates in bunk beds. I'm

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Speaker 1: six three and my bed actually was five tens, so

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Speaker 1: I had to do a little yoga move each night

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Speaker 1: as I went to sleep. And I spent two years

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Speaker 1: then and then I am all together from the nineteen

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Speaker 1: eighties until now, I've lived in China for about twenty years. Well,

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Speaker 1: for many Americans and many Westerners, the relationship with China

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Speaker 1: is really perceived to have begun with Nixon's visit in

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventy two. Your book takes a much broader historical perspective.

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Speaker 1: If we just focus on nineteen seventy two, what are

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Speaker 1: we missing, Well, we're missing about almost two hundred years

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Speaker 1: of American engagement with China. Americans first went to China

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Speaker 1: in seventeen eighty four. That's when the first American ship

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Speaker 1: landed in China to trade with the Chinese. And the

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Speaker 1: basis of the relationship from the beginning, basically, there were

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Speaker 1: two pillars. One was the missionary experience of trying to

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Speaker 1: Christianize the Chinese, but the more important one by far

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Speaker 1: was the commercial relationship. Because the United States in seventeen three,

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Speaker 1: after they beat the British, found itself isolated Basically, the

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Speaker 1: British had closed their ports to American ships, and going

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Speaker 1: to China was kind of a hail Mary passed by

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Speaker 1: American merchants in the Northeast to find new markets for

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Speaker 1: American products and and to buy Chinese tea. So the

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Speaker 1: search for new exports was on even then, on even

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Speaker 1: then exactly. And and because at the time the United

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Speaker 1: States was not yet a continental power, we were very

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Speaker 1: much sort of hard up against the the Atlantic seaboard

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Speaker 1: thirteen colonies, and trading was very important to them. And

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Speaker 1: so going to China was a way to break out

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Speaker 1: of the British uh sort of embark ago, if you will,

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Speaker 1: and and to find new markets. And the first for

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Speaker 1: the first product they sent to China, of course was

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Speaker 1: American jen sing because because the type of Jensen grows

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Speaker 1: United States. Ultimately the Americans sent a lot of Mexican

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Speaker 1: silver to China, which the Chinese loved. And of course

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Speaker 1: we also engaged in the opium trade, just like the

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Speaker 1: British did. Now that's a good way of condensing several

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Speaker 1: hundred years just into a few sentences. Dan was talking

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Speaker 1: about how for many people the frame of references Nixon

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Speaker 1: and Mao in ninety two. But for many Americans today,

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Speaker 1: their frame of reference really starts and ends with Donald Trump. Uh,

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Speaker 1: He's and it's not even about exports. It's about imports.

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Speaker 1: It's about how factories are moving to China. You hear

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Speaker 1: Trump saying things during the campaign like China is raping

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Speaker 1: our citizens, He's threatening to impose tariffs, talk of a

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Speaker 1: trade war. How does this fit into the two hundred

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Speaker 1: year historical context of relations with China. Well, there's always

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Speaker 1: been ebb and flow in American views on China, and

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Speaker 1: from the Chinese side at ebb and flowing their views

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Speaker 1: of the United States. There's this rapturous enchantment that we've

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Speaker 1: had with China, and there's also crushing disappointment that we've

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Speaker 1: had in China. And I think Trump clearly comes from

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Speaker 1: the crushing disappointment side of the ledger, in which he

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Speaker 1: has argued that the Chinese have been playing the United States,

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Speaker 1: They've been getting a better deal for Americans have gone

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Speaker 1: out of the way to welcome China into the international community.

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Speaker 1: We brought it into w t O, we got it

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Speaker 1: onto UH, we got it to sign a lot of

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Speaker 1: international treaties. We helped it as it got to get

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Speaker 1: back it's un Security Council seat. But then the question is,

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Speaker 1: all right, well, what have we gotten from China? That's

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Speaker 1: Trump's question, and his argument was, we haven't gotten much,

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Speaker 1: and so it's time from his perspective, to get tough

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Speaker 1: on China, to punish China, if you will, for not

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Speaker 1: living up to our our beliefs about where where it

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Speaker 1: was going to go. Now you have him coming in

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Speaker 1: and saying these things. But isn't it true that a

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Speaker 1: lot of presidents have been coming into office and in

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Speaker 1: the last few decades all hot and bothered about China,

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Speaker 1: and they say these things, and then economic and political

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Speaker 1: ties actually get stronger during their term insteative weakening. That's

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Speaker 1: a good point. Bill Clinton talked about the butchers of Beijing.

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Speaker 1: Tim Dightner said China was manipulating its currency. I mean,

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Speaker 1: what gives here? Right? So basically every president since Nixon

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Speaker 1: has come into the office when when China was discussed

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Speaker 1: in the electoral campaigns, he's they've they've come into office

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Speaker 1: basically criticizing the policies of their predecessors, except for one.

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Speaker 1: Barack Obama did not really criticize George W. Bush's China policies,

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Speaker 1: but he was He's an outlier from that perspective. So

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Speaker 1: Clinton came into office basically saying he was going to

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Speaker 1: make human rights a major platform of our engagement with

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Speaker 1: the Chinese, and he ultimately shelved that. George W. Bush

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Speaker 1: came into office declaring China strategic competitor uh and with

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Speaker 1: all for all tents and purposes, the idea of improving

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Speaker 1: relations of Taiwan, but that was shelved as nine eleven

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Speaker 1: erupted and the Americans focused their attention on the Middle East.

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Speaker 1: Would you say the biggest blunder in history or maybe

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Speaker 1: the president who did the most to make China relations

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Speaker 1: toteriory was Woodrow Wilson In part, yeah, Wilson was Wilson's

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Speaker 1: you know, the First World War, there was the Versailles Conference,

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Speaker 1: the peace conference after the war, and which Wilson basically

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Speaker 1: promised the Chinese that the Americans would help China during

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Speaker 1: that peace conference regain one of its provinces called Shandong,

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Speaker 1: which is sort of the cradle of Chinese civilization, that's

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Speaker 1: where Confucius was born, and regained it from the Japanese,

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Speaker 1: and the Japanese had taken Shandong from the Germans over

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Speaker 1: the course of World War One. The Japanese at the time,

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Speaker 1: we're fighting on the Allied side, on the side of

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Speaker 1: the Americans and the British. But during the conference, the

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Speaker 1: British and the French revealed that they had made secret

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Speaker 1: deals with the Japanese allowing them to keep Shandong, and

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Speaker 1: in effect Wilson was forced to raaks promised to the Chinese,

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Speaker 1: and that touched off a huge wave of demonstrations in

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Speaker 1: China against the United States, and it really triggered. It

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Speaker 1: was sort of the tipping point in which young Chinese

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Speaker 1: began to look not to America as a model for

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Speaker 1: their system, but to the young Soviet Union as a

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Speaker 1: model to their system. So that was a critical tip

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Speaker 1: and the Chinese really felt completely sold out by the

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Speaker 1: United States during that period. So did government canteens offer

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Speaker 1: Freedom fries instead of French fries. We'll get back to

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Speaker 1: the currency manipulation question in a minute, but you know,

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Speaker 1: through these ebbs and flows, John, the term you used,

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Speaker 1: one thing seems to have remained constant over the past

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Speaker 1: four decades, and that is the economic relationship has deepened

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Speaker 1: as China's economy has become bigger. It's now the world's

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Speaker 1: second largest. Now, how easy is it to hit reverse

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Speaker 1: on a two way economic relationship that's that important. Can

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Speaker 1: any one man, even if it's a hit of state

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Speaker 1: undo that has it come too far? I think it's

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Speaker 1: come too far. I think the relationship on the economic

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Speaker 1: side is clearly too big to fail. The Chinese are

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Speaker 1: deeply the Chinese factories are deeply incorporated into production chains

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Speaker 1: in the United States. If you're gonna basically force Apple

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Speaker 1: to leave China, it's gonna crash apples business. If you're

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Speaker 1: going to slap tariffs on Chinese goods, the Chinese will

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Speaker 1: stop buying Boeing jets. So the reality is that there

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Speaker 1: is so much interplay between the two sides, and so

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Speaker 1: much mutual reliance between the two sides, that if you

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Speaker 1: begin to punish the Chinese with tariffs on their goods,

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Speaker 1: you're going to cause significant problems in your own economy.

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Speaker 1: That said, the Chinese are more reliant on exports to

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Speaker 1: America than America is reliant on exports the China. So uh,

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Speaker 1: if you're going to punish them, they're probably gonna suffer

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Speaker 1: more than you. But the total effect on global economy

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Speaker 1: of that type of trade war is going to be basically,

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Speaker 1: the Chinese are gonna you know, you're gonna get a

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Speaker 1: serious wound. The Chinese are going to be are They're

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Speaker 1: gonna get a deeper wound. But at the end of

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Speaker 1: the day, both of you are going to be so wounded,

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Speaker 1: and the effect on the global economy is going to

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Speaker 1: be so major that that it's almost incomprehensible to think

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Speaker 1: that such a trade war could happen. In the twenties

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Speaker 1: and the thirties, there were there was a similar trade

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Speaker 1: war and net led in many ways to the depression.

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Speaker 1: And that's what one warries about. Basically, if you go

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Speaker 1: down this road of tit for tat economic sanctions, you're

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Speaker 1: going to have it specifically in two economies like the

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Speaker 1: United States in China, which are so tied into the

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Speaker 1: whole global economy, you risk basically making forcing the whole

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Speaker 1: thing to ground grind to a halt. So we're still

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Speaker 1: a ways away from Starbucks having to shelvet's expansion plans

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Speaker 1: into every corner of China, yes, I think for and

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Speaker 1: in fact, Starbucks looks like they're going to be opening

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Speaker 1: up one of their high end rostaries in Shanghai. They're

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Speaker 1: just looking for a place to do it. So their

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Speaker 1: plans for expansion are very, very bullish on China. Starbucks

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Speaker 1: has a fascinating, fascinating case study in China because what

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Speaker 1: it really in addition to the coffee culture, which is

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Speaker 1: Western culture, it also supplies public space to the Chinese

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Speaker 1: because there's this so little public space and the fact

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Speaker 1: that you can go to a Starbucks place and hang

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Speaker 1: out is something that's considered extremely valuable to the Chinese,

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Speaker 1: and they're willing to pay, you know, five bucks for

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Speaker 1: an espresso to do it. And it's a very visible

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Speaker 1: part of the surge in services and consumption, which is

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Speaker 1: the other thing that seems to be missed in the

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Speaker 1: course of the dialogue through this year in the United States,

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Speaker 1: it's as much a services economy now as it is

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Speaker 1: this caricature of a sweatshop churning out T shirts. Right

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Speaker 1: that that transition is happening. It's not happening as fast

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Speaker 1: as some economists would like it. But the transition of

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Speaker 1: China from an economy basically relying on investment, and as

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Speaker 1: you said, these you know, the being the factory of

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Speaker 1: the world to an economy that's focus to consumers is

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Speaker 1: happening in Shanghai right now. It's what the economy, and

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Speaker 1: most of the big cities on the East Coast, it's

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Speaker 1: it's more than of the economy, the service economy, and

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Speaker 1: that trend is just going to continue as long as

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Speaker 1: Chinese salaries keeps on keep on going up. And they

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Speaker 1: seem to be still growing even though the economy is

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Speaker 1: not growing quite very well. But salaries are growing well,

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Speaker 1: and that that allows to consumer to have more power.

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Speaker 1: Why isn't that message getting through? We do seem to

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Speaker 1: be stuck in this debate that's framed around some low

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Speaker 1: cost you know, manufacturer, right, and many of those manufacturers

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Speaker 1: are now moving on from China. Why is the debate frozen?

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Speaker 1: That's a great question, But I think in part it's

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Speaker 1: because we have, as Americans, were stuck in the categories

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Speaker 1: that we have to to think about China. So Trump's

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Speaker 1: campaign platform basically talking about the Chinese raping the United States,

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Speaker 1: and you know, and and this whole idea that China

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Speaker 1: simply you know, ripping American is off by by making

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Speaker 1: cheap goods subsidized by the government. It ties into this

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Speaker 1: American idea that we've had about China since the nineteenth century, when,

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Speaker 1: for example, the Working Land's Party in California was hugely

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Speaker 1: and their argument was that Chinese migrants in America were

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Speaker 1: ripping off the white working man because they weren't willing

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Speaker 1: to be union members, and they worked harder, and they

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Speaker 1: out competed the white man, and they were build a

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Speaker 1: wall between the US and Mexico to keep up people,

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Speaker 1: believe it or not. So in eighty three, the US

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Speaker 1: passed the Anti Chinese Exclusion Act, with basically what's banned

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Speaker 1: Chinese laborers from coming to America because the white whites

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Speaker 1: were unhappy with that Chinese competition. And then Chinese began

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Speaker 1: to sneak in in great numbers across the Mexican border,

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Speaker 1: and there was this call at the time so to

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Speaker 1: build a wall, which you know again echoes today for

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Speaker 1: different reasons, but it just shows you lot of this

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Speaker 1: ebb and flow. And so back to the issue. So

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Speaker 1: we have a difficult time looking at China as a

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Speaker 1: country that could one could innovate, two could be much

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Speaker 1: more reliant on its consumer sector, because we think of

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Speaker 1: the Chinese as laborers and we always have and so

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Speaker 1: part of the positive part of our relationship was we

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Speaker 1: have lots of very warm feelings for the Chinese traditionally,

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Speaker 1: but also we also have these categories that we stick

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Speaker 1: the Chinese as just worker bees, where we cannot think

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Speaker 1: of them as as something else, and and that those

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Speaker 1: categories tend to be in terms of looking at what

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Speaker 1: a future China is going to develop into, can can

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Speaker 1: be very constricting. I also think in some ways the

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Speaker 1: media has had a difficulty telling that new Chinese story

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Speaker 1: because the media itself has a tendency to kind of

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Speaker 1: get extra hard on China. One because you look at

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Speaker 1: the coverage of China versus the coverage of India in

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Speaker 1: the Western press, and we expect more from China, so

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Speaker 1: we cover it much more, much more harshly in many

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Speaker 1: ways than we expect from India. India often gets a

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Speaker 1: kind of a free ride, and it's coverage in the

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Speaker 1: Western press, whereas the China or it's ignored, whereas the Chinese.

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Speaker 1: We focus on generally relatively negative things on China because

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Speaker 1: we expect to do better. We're going to take a

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Speaker 1: quick break and we'll be right back hauled that thought, John,

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Speaker 1: brought to you by Bank of America, Meryll Lynch. Seeing

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Speaker 1: what others have seen, but I'm covering what others may not.

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Speaker 1: Global Research that helps you harness disruption voted top global

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Speaker 1: research from five years running. Mary Lynch, Pierce, Venner and

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Speaker 1: Smith Incorporated. And we're back John. We're talking about media

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Speaker 1: stereotypes of China and what drives that right so now,

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Speaker 1: and it's not just media stereotypes, it's also like US

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Speaker 1: government stereotypes. An example would be um an extraordinarily influential

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Speaker 1: thing that the United States government, in fact, probably one

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Speaker 1: of the most influential things the United States government has

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Speaker 1: done in China in the last twenty years, which was

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Speaker 1: to install an e p A air monitor system on

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Speaker 1: the roof of the U. S. Embassy in Beijing and

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Speaker 1: then to begin to tweet out the air quality index

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Speaker 1: data on an hourly basis to folks that wanted to

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Speaker 1: follow the Twitter feed, and that went viral, so millions

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Speaker 1: of Chinese people signed up for this Twitter feed, even

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Speaker 1: though Twitter is blocked in China, but there's ways to

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Speaker 1: get around it. That was repurposed by other Chinese websites

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Speaker 1: that used it as a way to sell sell products

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Speaker 1: like air filters, And this small act, which was not

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Speaker 1: done by any sort of National security council or state department,

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Speaker 1: actually done just by a small bureau in the embassy,

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Speaker 1: basically was singularly critical in raising people's consciousness about the

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Speaker 1: air pollution problem in China, which really has led to

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Speaker 1: forcing the government to embrace this issue as as an

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Speaker 1: important issue, not just because it's nice and groovy, but

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Speaker 1: because it's an issue of social stability. But the question

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Speaker 1: to ask is, well, why did the Americans put h

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Speaker 1: e P A sensor on the embassy in Beijing? Why

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Speaker 1: not in New Delhi where the air is equally as horrid. Again,

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Speaker 1: I think it gets back to this idea that the

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Speaker 1: Americans expect the Chinese to do better. We've always had

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Speaker 1: incredibly high standards for what they have to achieve, which

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Speaker 1: which I guess feeds back into Trump's sort of bashing

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Speaker 1: of the Chinese, because he really thinks they should be

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Speaker 1: able to do better. They should be able to do

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Speaker 1: more to deal with our North Korea problem. They should

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Speaker 1: be able to do more to help us with counter terrorism.

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Speaker 1: They should be able to do to do more UH

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Speaker 1: in dealing with their currency. But you don't see similar

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Speaker 1: pressure being put on other nations like this who are

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Speaker 1: also like China and instill in the developing nation mode.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk a little bit more about Trump. You had

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Speaker 1: a recent piece in the Washington Post talking about five

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Speaker 1: myths about the US policy towards Taiwan. If I can

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Speaker 1: sum it up that way, Trump has been obviously showing

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Speaker 1: some friendliness towards Taiwan. He took a phone call from

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Speaker 1: the President of Taiwan and uh, you know, he's kind

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Speaker 1: of openly talking about uh changing a policy that's been

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Speaker 1: in place for some forty years or so. What's going

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Speaker 1: through the minds of Chinese leadership as they as they

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Speaker 1: as Trump keeps making pronouncements on this issue, and could

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Speaker 1: it really become a serious cudgel in the U S

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Speaker 1: China economic relationship. So Trump seems to be calling into

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Speaker 1: question the basis of something that is that that, for

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Speaker 1: better or worse, has kept the peace between China mainland China,

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Speaker 1: and Taiwan for the last forty smit years. By saying

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Speaker 1: that the US One China policy, which is a policy

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Speaker 1: that basically says that there's one China, but it doesn't

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Speaker 1: say that actually Taiwan is part of that China. It

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Speaker 1: basically lets the status of Taiwan be undetermined. And because

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Speaker 1: of this policy, which is extremely ambiguous, it allows the

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Speaker 1: United States to conduct effective state to state relations with Chinwan, Taiwan,

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Speaker 1: sell Taiwan weapons, support Taiwan in the international system without

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Speaker 1: having formal relations with the government of Taiwan. And this

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Speaker 1: kind of ambiguous fiction that the Americans and the Chinese

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Speaker 1: have kind of agreed to disagree on has kept the

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Speaker 1: peace gener Really Now there's lots of people in the

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Speaker 1: United States who support Taiwan, who want to see more

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Speaker 1: direct support and direct recognition of Taiwan, because Taiwan indeed

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Speaker 1: has changed significantly since the since the time that Nixon

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Speaker 1: went to China. It's become a democracy, it's has the

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Speaker 1: freest press in Asia. It's an LGBT friendly society, it's

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Speaker 1: a it has a very vibrant religious and civil society

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Speaker 1: in in in and in comparison to China, it is

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Speaker 1: a free it is a free entity or a free country.

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Speaker 1: And so there's this push from people who like Taiwan

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Speaker 1: and who who are unhappy with the direction that China

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Speaker 1: is going to to basically recalibrate our relations with Taiwan.

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Speaker 1: The problem is, if you do that, you potentially incur

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Speaker 1: the wrath of the People's Republic of China. And they

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Speaker 1: have hundreds of missiles facing Taiwan and they can do

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Speaker 1: and and of Taiwan's economy is reliant on that of

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Speaker 1: the PRC through investment in a lot of trade. And

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Speaker 1: so if you begin to unravel this fiction, if you will,

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Speaker 1: that's kept the peace in in in Asia, you embolden

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Speaker 1: those in China who want to punish Taiwan, potentially even

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Speaker 1: embolden those in China who want to come into conflict

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Speaker 1: with the United States. But the first potential casualty of

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Speaker 1: all this will beat Taiwan on the island of the

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Speaker 1: three million people. And Trump, in doing this, seems to

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Speaker 1: be interested in using Taiwan as a bargaining chip to

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Speaker 1: get Chinese cooperation on other issues that the Americans are

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Speaker 1: interested in, for example trade or North Korea. And if

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Speaker 1: you do that, what happens If the Chinese say, okay,

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Speaker 1: we'll play ball, we'll be we'll squeeze the North Koreans more.

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Speaker 1: But then you've got a force Taiwan to negotiate its

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Speaker 1: political its effective political defeat and and unification with China.

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Speaker 1: Or you know, so if Taiwan becomes a chip, if

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Speaker 1: the Chinese then say, yeah, let's talk, will do X

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Speaker 1: you have to do? Why? Will Will Trump actually be

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Speaker 1: willing to further sell Taiwan down the river? So he

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Speaker 1: puts his let's make a deal philosophy on. This is

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Speaker 1: dangerous if the Chinese want to play ball. And it's

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Speaker 1: also dangerous is the Chinese say, Okay, we're just gonna

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Speaker 1: get really aggressive with Taiwan. Then what happens? So I

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Speaker 1: worry that that this is an initial gambit, it's sort

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Speaker 1: of a feel good gambit to try to show the

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Speaker 1: pro Taiwan people in the United States and people in

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Speaker 1: Taiwan and hey, we've got your back. But my next

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Speaker 1: question is what happens next? And that that that that

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Speaker 1: that's what what what worry? What worries me? At the

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Speaker 1: Asia Society last month, I heard you talk about some

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Speaker 1: of the economic dislocation in the Chinese heartland. Two things

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Speaker 1: struck me. One, you talked about unemployed men who can't

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Speaker 1: find wives and the growth of evangelical Christianity that would shock.

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Speaker 1: Many people, particularly the Evangelical Christianity, took a bit more

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Speaker 1: about that. So the missionary experience, I mean Americans of

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Speaker 1: course have been have been going to China's missionaries since

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Speaker 1: the eighteen thirties, and in ninety nine, when the Communist

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Speaker 1: Revolution happened in a country of more than four million people,

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Speaker 1: there were probably two million or some odd Christians Protestants,

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Speaker 1: and maybe two millions some odd Catholics. These days, the

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Speaker 1: Evangelical Protestant population in China is anywhere between sixty eight million,

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Speaker 1: and in the last fifteen to twenty years it has boomed, uh,

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Speaker 1: starting in some of the richer areas, but also in

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Speaker 1: the countryside. Jijiang Province, which is just south of Shanghai

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Speaker 1: is a boom area for that, so it's Fujian Uh.

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Speaker 1: There are hundreds and hundreds of American missionaries in China

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Speaker 1: masquerading as English teachers, but actually they really are bringing

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Speaker 1: the good word to the Chinese and it's been enormously,

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Speaker 1: enormously successful. And one of the reasons is that, like

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Speaker 1: a lot of post communist societies, the Chinese have confronted

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Speaker 1: with the collapse of their ideal ideology and their belief system.

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Speaker 1: They've confronted this moral vacuum, and lots of religions, Christianity

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Speaker 1: being one, following Going being another, Buddhism, Taoism being others,

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Speaker 1: have have moved in to fill this void in in

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Speaker 1: in the souls of many Chinese and it's been extraordinarily successful.

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Speaker 1: And and and the evangelical message of a direct relationship

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Speaker 1: with God has also been very attractive to Chinese entrepreneurs

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Speaker 1: who you know, if you think of your you know,

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Speaker 1: Protestant theology. Uh, you know, the Protestantism grew up as

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Speaker 1: the bourgeoisie grew up in Europe. It's a very similar idea.

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Speaker 1: And a lot of business owners in China, specifically out

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Speaker 1: of the Wenjoe region, which is a very successful sort

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Speaker 1: of beehive of entrepreneurial activity, have embraced Christianity specifically because

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Speaker 1: it talks about agency in your life, you know, your

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Speaker 1: direct relationship with God. You don't need a church. And

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Speaker 1: this disappeals a lot to entrepreneurs and to capitalists. Unlike here,

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Speaker 1: it has not taken on a political vine yet right,

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Speaker 1: not yet um, and it might not. I mean, the

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Speaker 1: Communist Party is extremely worried about any organization outside of

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Speaker 1: its control, and so the party continues to suppress religious

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Speaker 1: specifically Christian religious growth, and the Party learned a very

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Speaker 1: hard lesson in the in the nineties when they attempted

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Speaker 1: to encourage the growth of nativist local Chinese religions as

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Speaker 1: a way as a counter to pro Western ideas in China,

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Speaker 1: and they effectively created the following gold religious movement, which

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Speaker 1: they then turned around and cracked down on and in

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Speaker 1: the early two thousand's John, thank you for joining us.

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Speaker 1: It's been a fascinating discussion, and as the new administration

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Speaker 1: finds its fate, we'd love to have you back. Daniel Scott,

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Speaker 1: thanks a lot for having me. Benchmark will be back

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg's other excellent podcasts. Can also find us on iTunes,

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Speaker 1: you can reach us on Twitter at moss dash Echo.

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Speaker 1: Our guest is it at J. E. Pomfort and Scott U.

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Speaker 1: Scott Landman Benchmark is produced by Sarah Patterson. Bloomberg's head.

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Speaker 1: A podcast is Alec McCabe See You Next Week, brought

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Speaker 1: others have seen, but uncovering what others may not. Global

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Speaker 1: Research that helps you Harness disruption voted top global research

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Speaker 1: It