1 00:00:00,920 --> 00:00:03,160 Speaker 1: Hi, Catherine, Hi Chelsea, how are you. 2 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 2: I'm great, you're here in person, I know, and. 3 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: I'm dehydrated because I just got off a plane. Oh 4 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:09,399 Speaker 1: I just found my visiline and my bra look at that. 5 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:12,080 Speaker 1: When I yeah, when I have my little Plaine meal, 6 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 1: which I have now started eating plain food because that's 7 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 1: how desperate I am. I have no food in whistler, 8 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 1: my refriger. I mean, I have food, but I just 9 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: can't cook anything, so I just don't really eat. All 10 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 1: I have are protein shakes and protein bars. And it's 11 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: really one of the most unhealthy times of my life. 12 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 1: And Margarita is I mean, yeah, I'm just like, oh, 13 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:34,599 Speaker 1: I need food, and then I'm like, here's a protein. 14 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 3: Sometimes you need just like lazy food. That's just like Okay, 15 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:38,280 Speaker 3: this is here. I can put it in my body 16 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:39,279 Speaker 3: and like keep going for the day. 17 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:42,159 Speaker 1: That's right. That's right. So between that, what else has 18 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 1: been happening? Yeah, So I came back to La. I'm 19 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: doing a guest star role in this show called Not 20 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: Dead Yet on ABC and Hulu. My friend is the 21 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:51,479 Speaker 1: producer on it and asked me to come do a 22 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:53,239 Speaker 1: guest star So I came back for two days to 23 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: do that and then a little photo shoot for my 24 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 1: Netflix is a Joke Festival, which is on May eleventh. Fantastic. 25 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 3: I am very excited about your Netflix's joke show. 26 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 1: Oh oh, it's going to be so fun. Yes, yes, 27 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 1: I'm going to sneak on in there. And I was 28 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 1: in Saskatoon and Winnipeg, Canada this week. Saskatoon sounds like 29 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:13,960 Speaker 1: it's a made up place. It sounds like Sascat's Asakatakaku. 30 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:16,959 Speaker 1: And they are two cities with sheets of ice. So 31 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 1: when you look out, you are in the plains of 32 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 1: Canada with just two ice sheets. So there's that. Yeah, 33 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:26,680 Speaker 1: just pretty flat and cold. I had to sleep under 34 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 1: the covers with a robe on and my hat, my 35 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 1: two as they say in Canada. And so those are 36 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:35,959 Speaker 1: the two probably coldest cities I will have been too. 37 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:36,960 Speaker 2: But you made it. 38 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:38,119 Speaker 1: I did. I made it. 39 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:41,120 Speaker 3: Now did you do super Bowl party anything like that? 40 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: I did go to a Super Bowl party. I skied yesterday. Well, 41 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 1: it took me a lot of time to get ski 42 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: because I have the twins on the weekends because I'm 43 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: a single parent. Actually no, I'm not a single parent. 44 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 1: My buddy's the mother and I'm the father, so I 45 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 1: have the girls on the weekend. So first I went skiing, 46 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 1: but that didn't really I didn't get very far skiing 47 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: because I got stuck at a bar at the Umbrella 48 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: Bar Unwhistir and then I so I didn't get on 49 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: the mountain till our skiing. Well yes, during I didn't 50 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: get on the mounta until twelve. Then I went to 51 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 1: the Umbrella Bar and then I was there till one 52 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 1: thirty and then we went skiing and there was just 53 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 1: everyone was skiing out, and so we decided to go 54 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 1: back to the Umbrella Bar and wait for everyone to 55 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:18,840 Speaker 1: ski out. And then I had to pick up my 56 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:21,799 Speaker 1: daughter at four, so I have to well she's actually 57 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 1: my son, but we call her my she's a girl, 58 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: but we call her my son. And so I had 59 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 1: to go pick her up and bring her to a 60 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:29,800 Speaker 1: super Bowl party because there was going to be a 61 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:32,080 Speaker 1: cutie piet to super Bowl party that she wanted to meet, 62 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:33,920 Speaker 1: so obviously that's a priority. 63 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, then you can like casually snuggle on the couch 64 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 3: a little bit, or you're not really snuggling, but you're like, oh. 65 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, they had a little casual snuggle. So that 66 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:43,079 Speaker 1: was cute and it was worth it. And then I came. 67 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:45,240 Speaker 1: I left before the game ended, but I saw that 68 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 1: the Chiefs won, and Taylor Swift rigged the whole thing. Apparently, 69 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 1: of course, all conservative news outlets the Super Bowl. Okay, well, 70 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 1: our guest today is an author. She's a spiritual leader 71 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 1: and the founder and your rabbi at e Car, which 72 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 1: is a non denominational Jewish congregation based in la And 73 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:07,360 Speaker 1: everyone I know has talked to me about this woman 74 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 1: and how amazing she is. So I thought, okay, let's 75 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 1: have her on. And she wrote this beautiful book that 76 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 1: I just read. You read it. It's gorgeous, right, like, 77 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: I love the way she wrote. I'm writing a lot 78 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: about that stuff in my book. So it was very resonated. 79 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 1: It's called the Amen Effect. It's ancient wisdom to mend 80 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 1: our broken hearts and world. So please welcome Rabbi Sharon Brouse. Hello, 81 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 1: good morning, Hi, Thank you so much for joining us today. 82 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 2: I'm so happy to be with you. 83 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: We have so many people in comment that go to 84 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: synagogue with you, and I have never been, and so 85 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 1: many of my Jewish friends are like, oh my god, 86 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 1: you would love her. You guys have so much in common. 87 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, you got to come. 88 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 1: I will. I know, I one day I will. I'm 89 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 1: never in la, that's the problem. So I just finished 90 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 1: your book, The Amen Effect, which was really moving. There 91 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 1: are many sentiments to it, but the big takeaway from me, 92 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 1: and there's something that really resonated with me, was the 93 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:06,119 Speaker 1: constant theme of connectivity and showing up. I mean, there's 94 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 1: a lot of ways to show up for people, but 95 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 1: just the act of showing up itself and what that 96 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 1: can do, how that can help a person who is dying, 97 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 1: or is grieving, or is just in any sort of 98 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 1: emotional trouble or trauma. So tell me, like, is this 99 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 1: something that you've obviously learned throughout your rabbinical training and 100 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:33,160 Speaker 1: practicing and being a rabbi, But is this something that 101 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:34,360 Speaker 1: comes naturally to you? 102 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:37,480 Speaker 2: What a great question. Yeah. I think I think on 103 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 2: some level I was this you know, kind of empathic 104 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 2: five year old. I mean, I do. I think that 105 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 2: I was a person growing up who when I saw pain, 106 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 2: it pained me. And I always felt, like, you know, 107 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 2: I wanted to do whatever I could to help people, 108 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 2: and even in sometimes unhelpful ways. I think so, But 109 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 2: I think the idea of moving toward pain instead of 110 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 2: running away from it is for many of us as counterinstinctual, 111 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 2: and even for people like me who feel pain deeply, 112 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:11,359 Speaker 2: we often pull away from folks who are struggling and 113 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:14,279 Speaker 2: suffering because for lots of good reasons. I mean, we're 114 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:16,599 Speaker 2: afraid that we're going to say the wrong thing, we 115 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 2: think that we'll be a burden, and they don't actually 116 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 2: want us or need us there, Chelsea, I think we 117 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:24,360 Speaker 2: think that people's pain is contagious, and if we get 118 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:28,280 Speaker 2: too close to someone suffering, it forces us to think 119 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 2: about how vulnerable we are, and that's really hard for 120 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 2: people to come to terms with. And so what ends 121 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 2: up happening is that we really retreat from each other, 122 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 2: precisely in the moment that we need each other the most, 123 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 2: both that the person who's suffering needs to be connected 124 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:47,679 Speaker 2: and also that the people who are doing okay really 125 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 2: need to be of service, but instead pull away from 126 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 2: those kind of really deep and meaningful encounters. And it 127 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:55,679 Speaker 2: hurts all of us. 128 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, because it is so it's a gift that you're 129 00:05:57,760 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: giving to the person and that you're giving to yourself, 130 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 1: and I think many people don't necessarily see it that 131 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 1: way because they haven't practiced it enough. And I remember 132 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 1: a friend of mine's partner dying a few months ago 133 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 1: and another friend of mine saying, should I don't think 134 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna wait to reach out And I said, no, 135 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: you have to reach out right away, Like it doesn't 136 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:18,719 Speaker 1: and he said no, she's consumed with texts and she's 137 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 1: consumed and everyone's reaching out to her. And it's like, 138 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:23,280 Speaker 1: you shouldn't even be thinking about any of that. That's 139 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: not your you know what I mean. That's it's so 140 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 1: important to like register that you're available for that person 141 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 1: who's going through something. In my opinion, I mean, that's 142 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:35,039 Speaker 1: the thing I'm best at, is showing up in times 143 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: of turmoil when other people want to look away. That 144 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: is the strength of mind. And I take a lot 145 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:41,360 Speaker 1: of pride in it because a lot of people think 146 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: it can be meddlesome. And it's like, well, it's not 147 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 1: meddlesome when you really care about somebody and you're just 148 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: they're giving yourself and so like I'm trying to squeeze 149 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: them for details and information, it's actually being available, being 150 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:56,720 Speaker 1: there and sitting next to somebody and the withness that 151 00:06:56,760 --> 00:07:00,159 Speaker 1: you talk about in your book is so important for 152 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:01,039 Speaker 1: the human spirit. 153 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, and we have to be present in ways they're 154 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 2: attentive to the needs of the person who's struggling and suffering. 155 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 2: And someone just told me the other day that when 156 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 2: she had suffered a lot, she had a friend who 157 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 2: came right into her house and got into bed with 158 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 2: her and snuggled her, and the whole time she was thinking, 159 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 2: can you get out of my house? I don't want 160 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 2: you to be here, like this isn't what I need, 161 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 2: this is what you need. And so I think our 162 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 2: responsibility is to try to be attuned to what the 163 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 2: other person needs, but to err on the side of presence, 164 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 2: to err on the side of presence. And I write 165 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 2: in the book about you know, one of the ways 166 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 2: that I learned this was because my beloved Rabbi Marcello, 167 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 2: who's so dear to so many people, his mother died 168 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 2: and I literally remember thinking the same thing that your 169 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 2: friend thought. I thought, he is just burdened right now 170 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 2: by all the love and all the lasagna and all 171 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 2: the lingering hugs, And so I just wrote him a 172 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 2: little note, but I did not fly in for the funeral. 173 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 2: I didn't call, and afterwards he said to me. A 174 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 2: few months later, when I saw him, he said, you 175 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 2: really failed me. He said I needed you and you 176 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 2: weren't here for me. And when I heard I felt 177 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 2: so defensive. And I had all these great reasons why 178 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 2: I think. I had little kids, I had a community, 179 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 2: I had work, you know, and I finally realized this 180 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 2: was a gift. He was saying to me, like, don't 181 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 2: assume that you know that I don't need you. Just 182 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 2: be there, and so we can be there in a 183 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 2: way that actually speaks to the needs of the person 184 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 2: who were going to a kind of like light touch 185 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 2: presence that lets people know that we love them and 186 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 2: that they're not navigating these moments of real hardship alone, 187 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 2: but that we will be here and will be here 188 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 2: with relentless love and presence in a way that actually 189 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 2: suits the needs of the person who's going through this 190 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 2: time of suffering. 191 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:41,559 Speaker 1: And also, what a gift Rabbi Barcelo gave you by 192 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 1: his giving you his honesty instead of just being like, oh, 193 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 1: that's not a friend of mine anymore, because that's another 194 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 1: thing people do when people don't show up for them 195 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: in their times of strife, they're like, oh, that person's 196 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 1: dead to me. He said to you, you failed me. 197 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 1: Next time you better be there. That's right, is what 198 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 1: he said. And that's a. 199 00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 2: Gift all It's such a gift because I think that 200 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 2: we also think that our relationships are supposed to be 201 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 2: supportive in the sense that you know, I need you, 202 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 2: I need you to support me and to help me 203 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 2: see why I did this right. And instead, what he's 204 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 2: teaching me is that real what he taught me is 205 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 2: that real friendship is sometimes saying to someone, you know, 206 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 2: here's a way that you failed me, and I know 207 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:20,360 Speaker 2: that you can do better. That that's actually a gift 208 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 2: of real love, which which connects to something that I 209 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 2: speak about in chapter two about the idea that I 210 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 2: mean the first person was created alone, and it's the 211 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 2: first thing in the Hebrew Bible and the terror that 212 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 2: God says is not good that you know every day 213 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 2: at the end of at the end of every day, 214 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 2: it's good, it's good, it's good, it's really good. And 215 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 2: then it says it's not good for a person to 216 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 2: be alone, which doesn't mean that a person should be 217 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 2: married or should be partner. It means that we shouldn't 218 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 2: be fundamentally alone in the world. That we should have 219 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:51,959 Speaker 2: someone who we can let in, who can see us, 220 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:53,679 Speaker 2: and who we can see. And that could be a 221 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 2: sister or a friend, or a therapist or an aunt, 222 00:09:57,160 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 2: a grandma. I mean, it could be just somebody who 223 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:02,200 Speaker 2: we allow to see. But the language that the text 224 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 2: us is to see us by being opposite us, which 225 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:08,679 Speaker 2: might mean to see our beauty, but also to see 226 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:12,720 Speaker 2: our brokenness, our bruises, our failures, our flaws, and not 227 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 2: to run away from us when they encounter those things, 228 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 2: but instead to say, you know, hey, I really needed 229 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:19,440 Speaker 2: more from you than you were able to give me. 230 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 2: That that could be an incredible gesture of love because 231 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 2: it helps us grow. Those kind of relationships are the 232 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 2: ones we grow from. 233 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I always think that when anyone ever says that 234 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 1: person's dead to me, it's like you're missing an opportunity 235 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 1: to explain that you'd be willing to give them another 236 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 1: chance if they actually saw the situation in a more 237 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:40,680 Speaker 1: holistic sense instead of from just their side. So it 238 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 1: is kind of always a missed opportunity. Actually, one of 239 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:46,079 Speaker 1: my friends who I know is listening and we're talking 240 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 1: about you, so I'll talk to you about this later. 241 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 1: She's gonna be like, were you talking about me? Yes? Yeah, 242 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 1: talk about the story about together, separateness aloneess, because in 243 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 1: your book you talk about Adam and Eve and what 244 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 1: it's in the Tora about that. Talk a little bit 245 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 1: about that. I had never read that before. 246 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 2: I mean, one of the most It's an incredible story 247 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 2: that comes from this is a midrash, an ancient rabbinic 248 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 2: commentary to the Torah that's maybe fifteen hundred and seventeen 249 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 2: hundred years old, and it tells this. It imagines what 250 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 2: happened at the end of the sixth day of creation. 251 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:20,439 Speaker 2: This is the first day that human beings were alive. 252 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 2: We were human beings were created on the sixth day, 253 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:25,680 Speaker 2: according to the narrative of the Torah. And so the 254 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 2: sun starts to set and they've never seen darkness before. 255 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:33,679 Speaker 2: And as the sun is coming down, Adam, the first person, 256 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 2: just starts freaking out and he does what we do 257 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 2: when we encounter darkness for the first time. He starts catastrophizing, right, 258 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 2: and he thinks, oh my god, it's not just darkness, 259 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 2: it's the end of the world. And he does what 260 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:50,080 Speaker 2: we do when we see darkness, which is he blames 261 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:51,680 Speaker 2: himself for it, and he thinks, what did I do 262 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:54,559 Speaker 2: to deserve this? And maybe I did something wrong, and 263 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 2: maybe this is all my fault, and now everything's lost. 264 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 2: And the story says that Eve heard him weeping and 265 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,680 Speaker 2: wailing and crying as the night descended, and she just 266 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:08,200 Speaker 2: went and she sat right across from him, and she 267 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 2: just wept with him and held him all night and 268 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 2: until the dawn came. And I think that the story asks, 269 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 2: it challenges us to ask this question of ourselves, like 270 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 2: who will be with you through the dark night of 271 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 2: the soul? Because everybody has these dark nights? And will 272 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 2: we let somebody into the intimacy of that heartache in 273 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 2: order to just be with us, not to fix us, 274 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:34,679 Speaker 2: not to try to say, Adam, don't worry the sun's 275 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 2: going to come up in the morning, because she didn't 276 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 2: know that either, but just to sit with us and 277 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 2: weep with us through the dark night, because often there 278 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 2: is joy does come in the morning, right, I mean, 279 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 2: there often is a morning. There's not always a new 280 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 2: dawn that comes. As I also speak about later in 281 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:53,560 Speaker 2: the book that after some kinds of losses and some 282 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 2: kinds of struggles. There isn't some bright new day that 283 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:59,320 Speaker 2: now we can start again, and then our challenge is 284 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 2: to find the blessing even in the dark night. But 285 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:05,080 Speaker 2: very often there is a new dawn that emerges, but 286 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:06,959 Speaker 2: the fact of the new dawn doesn't make it any 287 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 2: easier to make it through the long night. The presence 288 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:13,959 Speaker 2: of another person who just loves you and cares about 289 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 2: you is what helps us. And by the way, to 290 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 2: contrast with the friend who climbs into bed and cuddles 291 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 2: when the last thing you want is to be cuddled 292 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:23,960 Speaker 2: by somebody. If you're a person who wants to experience 293 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 2: your grief differently than that, maybe you don't want a 294 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 2: foot massage. Maybe you just want to, you know, like 295 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 2: you just want to. 296 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 1: Always want a foot message. I don't know where the 297 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 1: fuck is happening. I need a foot massage, and I'll 298 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 1: take one from anyone. 299 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:38,960 Speaker 2: Ever, anyone. But maybe you're one of the rare people 300 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 2: who doesn't want a foot massage, but that's what your 301 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 2: friend wants to get. But I'm going to just like 302 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:45,080 Speaker 2: there's a there's a beautiful story that I that I 303 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 2: found out about years years years after it happened. But 304 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:50,960 Speaker 2: we had a tragic death in our community of someone, 305 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 2: a young person was really beloved to die by suicide 306 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:59,560 Speaker 2: and the family found his body on Friday, and it 307 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 2: was I mean, the reverberative trauma in the community, like 308 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 2: the It was just a terrible, terrible loss. I write 309 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 2: about him a little bit in the book. He was 310 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 2: a healer, and I think he took a lot of 311 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 2: the pain of his patients in the world into his 312 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 2: body and it just kind of metastasized inside his body. 313 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 2: But I found out years later that a couple in 314 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 2: my community knew about the loss. They weren't very close 315 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 2: with either the person who died or his family, but 316 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 2: they called the mother the following week on Friday because 317 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 2: they just assumed, like, this is going to be really hard. 318 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 2: Fridays are going to be really hard for her. And 319 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 2: then they called again the next Friday, and then the 320 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 2: next Friday, and they literally called her every single Friday 321 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 2: for three years, and now it's been almost six years. 322 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 2: And they called every single week, just sometimes for five minutes, 323 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 2: sometimes for half an hour. They connected because they wanted 324 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 2: her to know that they were not going to abandon her, 325 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 2: that they knew that this was a hard time. And 326 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 2: so that's the kind of sort of relentless love in 327 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 2: showing up that doesn't actually intrude on someone's privacy and 328 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 2: doesn't make it about your need as the caregiver rather 329 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 2: than the person's need as the recipient of the care. 330 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 2: But it's just a gesture of love to say, like, 331 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 2: I haven't forgotten that your son died, and I know 332 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 2: that you're thinking about it every day. I'm also thinking 333 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 2: about it. I'm right here with you with love, and 334 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 2: I think we can give each other those gifts of 335 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 2: love much more than we do, and much more than 336 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 2: we think we can. 337 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 1: It's kind of like the strength that people have when 338 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 1: they're like when you see the hostages, families like Hirsh's mother, 339 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 1: when you see people who are able to comport themselves 340 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 1: through what they're going through, it's almost like you're tapping 341 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 1: into a part of yourself that you didn't even know 342 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 1: was there, you know, Like it's kind of it's analogous 343 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 1: to what you're describing. I think, because all of us 344 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: have this like reservoir of strength, right and when we 345 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 1: lose something, or we're losing something, you know, we can 346 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 1: all handle it. In different ways. But we can also 347 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 1: always surprise ourselves and each other in the way in 348 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 1: which we do handle things, and that you can like 349 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 1: muster up the courage and the strength to charge forward 350 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 1: just when you think you don't have another step. 351 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 2: Left, right, right. And what Rachel has demonstrated Hersh's mother 352 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 2: through this time is I mean, I think she is 353 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 2: a prophet in our time because she has been able 354 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 2: to give words to the anguish of a mother who's 355 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 2: in profound grief and sort of suspend it between life 356 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 2: and death. I mean, she has no idea, and even 357 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 2: through that, she has been able to lift her gaze 358 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 2: and imagine a different kind of future. I mean, she's 359 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 2: writing poetry about sitting with her with a Palestinian woman, 360 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 2: both of them elderly, wrinkles on their face from laughing 361 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 2: so much together, and you know, their teeth brown from 362 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 2: all the tea that they drank together, watching their sons 363 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 2: and their grandchildren playing together. Like she she's calling us 364 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 2: to imagine a different in the future, even as she's 365 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 2: grappling with the most unimaginably painful reality. And that's pretty 366 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 2: extraordinary and one of the things that that makes me 367 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:12,199 Speaker 2: think of when is that one of the reasons that 368 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 2: people stay away from the pain is because they say 369 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:18,359 Speaker 2: they don't want to trigger the bereaved. They don't want 370 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:20,719 Speaker 2: to trigger the person who's experiencing laws because maybe you're 371 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:23,440 Speaker 2: having a good day and you're not thinking about your 372 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 2: child or your you know, or your loved one who's died, 373 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:29,439 Speaker 2: or you're not thinking about your your breast cancer or 374 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 2: your you know, whatever illness you're struggling with, or whatever 375 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:34,919 Speaker 2: worry you're holding. But the fact is, we know that 376 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:37,879 Speaker 2: when we're going through those periods of darkness, when we 377 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 2: are bereft and bereaved, we're thinking about it all the time, 378 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 2: and it just appears like the whole world is moving 379 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:49,200 Speaker 2: in the other direction without even any awareness that we are, 380 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 2: as Rachel Goldberg says, living on a different planet. And 381 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:55,679 Speaker 2: so what we're doing when we show up, as we're saying, 382 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 2: I see you on your planet, and I acknowledge that 383 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:01,440 Speaker 2: you're moving in a different direction than I am, and 384 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:04,200 Speaker 2: I don't want you to feel like you are alone 385 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 2: in this moment. Even as I continue with my life, 386 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 2: I still see you and the pain that you're holding 387 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 2: in yours. 388 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 1: Okay, on that note, we're going to take a break 389 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 1: and we'll be right back, and we're back. 390 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:24,719 Speaker 3: If you are the person who is bereaved or who's grieving, 391 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 3: or who's going through a hard time, we get a 392 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 3: lot of emails on the show from people who are 393 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 3: lost and grieving. What would you say to someone about 394 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 3: how to reach out to that eve who can come 395 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 3: sit and weep with them, or to someone when they 396 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:41,439 Speaker 3: know they need help but they feel like, well, I 397 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 3: should just kind of be doing it on my own. 398 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 3: I don't want to bother them that sort of thing. 399 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:48,640 Speaker 2: So thank you for that question, Catherine. One of the 400 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 2: spiritual practices that I write in the back of the 401 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 2: book because I'm trying to not just put forward this 402 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 2: idea about how we need to think about each other 403 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:01,119 Speaker 2: and our encounters differently, but how can we actually operationalize this? 404 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 2: What are some simple things that we can do every day, 405 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 2: And one of them is tell the truth, don't grin 406 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 2: and bear it, don't pretend you're okay when you're not okay. 407 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 2: And the central paradigm of the book is this ancient 408 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:17,199 Speaker 2: ritual that used to happen when the Jews would go 409 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:20,199 Speaker 2: up to pilgrimage on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem in 410 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:22,920 Speaker 2: the old old days and so two thousand years ago, 411 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:25,879 Speaker 2: and the ritual was that people would ascend to Jerusalem, 412 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 2: which is a city on a hill, and then they 413 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 2: would ascend the steps of the Temple Mount, and they 414 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 2: would go through this grand entryway and they would turn 415 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:37,399 Speaker 2: to the right, and everybody on the pilgrimage, masses of 416 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 2: people all at once would circle around the outer the 417 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 2: perimeter of the courtyard, and then they would essentially exit 418 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 2: where they had left, except for someone with a broken 419 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 2: heart who would go up to Jerusalem, go up the 420 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 2: steps that they would enter and turn to the left. 421 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 2: So they are signaling that the whole world's moving in 422 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:58,360 Speaker 2: one direction and they're moving in another. They're actually showing 423 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 2: with their bodies. I'm not okay. And I think part 424 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:04,920 Speaker 2: of the problem of our time is that, first of all, 425 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:06,879 Speaker 2: when we're suffering, we just don't want to get out 426 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 2: of bed because we don't trust that we're going to 427 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:11,159 Speaker 2: be held with love and with care when we do. 428 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:13,639 Speaker 2: And then if we do, we feel like we have 429 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 2: to pretend that we're like everybody else. I have a 430 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 2: friend whose child died from a terrible cancer, and she 431 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 2: described going to a wedding a couple months after her 432 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 2: child died, and she's like, I felt like I had 433 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 2: to get all dressed up and put on makeup and 434 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 2: address and dance like everyone, and I didn't want to 435 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 2: be there at all. And I wonder what it would 436 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 2: mean to trust that we are going to get up 437 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 2: and we are going to show up when we're broken, 438 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:40,160 Speaker 2: but we're not going to pretend that we're okay. We're 439 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 2: going to be very clear that we need to be 440 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:45,639 Speaker 2: held with love and with care because we're going to 441 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 2: trust that we will be. And then this ritual, it's 442 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:52,200 Speaker 2: so powerful because the ancients understood something about the human 443 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 2: psyche that I think really reflects a very real truth 444 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 2: that we know about our spirits but that we try 445 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,639 Speaker 2: to deny. So what would happen is every person who's 446 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 2: coming in the counterclockwise direction would see the broken hearted 447 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 2: person stop, look into their eyes, and then ask a 448 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:13,200 Speaker 2: simple question, what happened to you? Tell me your story, 449 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 2: why does your heart ache? And then that broken hearted 450 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:19,439 Speaker 2: person would respond saying my father just died, or my 451 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:24,160 Speaker 2: kid is sick, or I'm just really lonely, and then 452 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 2: they would receive a blessing, not from the priest, not 453 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 2: from the rabbis, not from the great leader. They would 454 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 2: receive a blessing from the everyday people who are there 455 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 2: on the pilgrimage, who, by the way, their instinct is 456 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 2: to not notice the broken hearted person because they're in 457 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:42,960 Speaker 2: this beautiful, spiritual peak moment of their lives. But they 458 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:46,360 Speaker 2: are asked to stop, to see, to ask, and then 459 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 2: to bless. And so to answer your question, I think 460 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:55,160 Speaker 2: we need to be honest about the pain that we're experiencing. 461 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:57,679 Speaker 2: We need to be willing to say to someone I 462 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 2: need your help, I'm not okay right now. But the 463 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:03,359 Speaker 2: only way that we can do that honestly when our 464 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:06,679 Speaker 2: hearts are broken is because we trust that we are 465 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 2: in a community of care that will not mock us, 466 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 2: humiliate us, marginalize us to great us, but instead will 467 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 2: hold us with love. And our shared responsibility to each 468 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 2: other is to create those kinds of relationships, friendships, and communities, 469 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 2: because all of us at some point will be walking 470 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:27,919 Speaker 2: in the direction of the bereaved and the bereft and 471 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 2: the ill, and will need to be held by love 472 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 2: when we are and this is a kind of shared 473 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:35,719 Speaker 2: commitment that we can make to one another. 474 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: In the book, you talk about someone named Amanda as 475 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,159 Speaker 1: part of your congregation, somebody you have a kind of 476 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:45,160 Speaker 1: not an acrimonious relationship with, but just not a smooth relationship. 477 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:47,480 Speaker 1: And then you talk about kind of seeing her as 478 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:50,439 Speaker 1: a whole person, seeing that she's been through things that 479 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 1: have affected her in this way and impacted her behavior, 480 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 1: and so can you talk a little bit about that 481 00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: and like what the status of that relationship is, because 482 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 1: I found it so interesting to have someone coming to 483 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 1: your congregation who has those kinds of feelings but they're 484 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:05,679 Speaker 1: really not about you. 485 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,120 Speaker 2: Well, first of all, Amanda is not her real name, 486 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,360 Speaker 2: just in case. In case, now people are scrolling through 487 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 2: all their friends at the car wondering who Amanda is. 488 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 1: But no, well, when you read the book, you would 489 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: know that you can't use her real name. 490 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 2: So yeah, right, anything that's not that's really like a 491 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 2: little bit challenging about a person. I changed it to 492 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,880 Speaker 2: just protects people's privacy. And yeah, I mean this has 493 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,360 Speaker 2: happened not once. I love that you're a little surprised 494 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 2: by it. But unfortunately, people often bring their rage and 495 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:36,879 Speaker 2: their trauma into relationship with their rabbis and pastors, you know, 496 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 2: and priests because they can, because we're soft targets for that. 497 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,640 Speaker 2: And so in this particular case, this is a person 498 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 2: who came in many times over the course of many 499 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:50,399 Speaker 2: years and just vented, I mean, all of her rage, 500 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 2: but as if I'm the target. And it took me 501 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,119 Speaker 2: some time to realize that it wasn't actually about me, 502 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:58,199 Speaker 2: because I'm a human being. And as you know, this 503 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 2: person sits in my office and screen and curses and blames, 504 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,359 Speaker 2: you know, like I'm taking it into my body and 505 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 2: I can feel I'm getting hot, I'm getting wet. I'm 506 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 2: thinking like I do not deserve this. I do. I 507 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 2: just want to be home right now. I just want 508 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:16,679 Speaker 2: to be, you know, anywhere but here. And then I realized, 509 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:18,880 Speaker 2: I thought about this something that I learned from one 510 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:21,160 Speaker 2: of my very dear friends who's a pastor, like an 511 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 2: incredible pastor and Reverend Ed Bacon is his name. He 512 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 2: was here at All Saints Church in Pasadena, and then 513 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:30,120 Speaker 2: he moved back to the South where he lives now, 514 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 2: and he taught me that in every experience in our lives, 515 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 2: we can walk away from the experience and we can 516 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 2: see ourselves as the hero. Of the encounter, like, wow, 517 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 2: I handle that so well. You know, I'm such a 518 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,159 Speaker 2: hero that, you know, they lost my luggage and I 519 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:48,679 Speaker 2: kept my cool and I just moved right through it 520 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 2: and enjoyed the weekend anyway. Or we can see ourselves 521 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:55,119 Speaker 2: as the victim, which is like, they lost my luggage again. 522 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 2: You know, I will never fly this airline again, and 523 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 2: or we can you know, why does this always happen 524 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 2: to me? Or we can see ourselves as learners, which is, 525 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 2: you know, this is the third time this has happened 526 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:07,479 Speaker 2: to me. I'm really going to try to just use 527 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:11,359 Speaker 2: carry on moving forward, and so we can assess the 528 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 2: experience and determine how we want to let that experience 529 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 2: land in our psychic memory. And I had this realization 530 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 2: as I'm sitting with her, and I thought, I don't 531 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 2: want to be a hero here. I made it through 532 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 2: this terrible another terrible day with Amanda, and I don't 533 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 2: want to be a victim. Like I have dedicated my 534 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 2: life to trying to build a just and loving world, 535 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,400 Speaker 2: and this maniac comes into my office and is screaming 536 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 2: at me, and what has she done to make the 537 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,640 Speaker 2: world a better place? You know? And here I want 538 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 2: to just be a learner, and so in this moment, 539 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,920 Speaker 2: I envision a screen that comes down from the ceiling 540 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 2: and goes right into the space in between Amanda and me. 541 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 2: And suddenly I see her not as you know, some 542 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 2: maniac who's screaming at her poor rabbi, but I see 543 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:02,479 Speaker 2: her as a character in a film about trauma and 544 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 2: how trauma manifests in our relationships. And I now see 545 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:10,439 Speaker 2: her that here's this woman who's aggrieved in the world, 546 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 2: and she's screaming at her rabbi. And obviously it's not 547 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,399 Speaker 2: about a rabbi. It's about her rage and her trauma. 548 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:18,920 Speaker 2: So I have enough psychic distance that I can start 549 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 2: to ask. I wonder what traumatized her. I wonder where 550 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 2: the pain really is coming from here, And that gives 551 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 2: me the space to ask different kinds of questions of Amanda. 552 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,200 Speaker 2: And when I do, because I'm no longer on the defensive, 553 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 2: I start to learn things about her that literally, I mean, 554 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,399 Speaker 2: I've been in relationship with her for many years and 555 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 2: I never knew. And it turns out she is a 556 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:46,159 Speaker 2: victim of trauma and unprocessed trauma, and so she's raging 557 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 2: not just at me, but she's raging at a lot 558 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,680 Speaker 2: of people, and then I can past her to her, 559 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:54,439 Speaker 2: I can actually help her. And more importantly, I feel 560 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 2: detached enough that I can be in a position of 561 00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:02,159 Speaker 2: service and not a position of like victimhood. And that 562 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 2: helps me understand why curiosity and wonder about another person 563 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,440 Speaker 2: are so critical and why they're so hard for us 564 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 2: to achieve when we feel like we're being targeted. 565 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, at the end of the book, you talk about 566 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 1: the kind of divide that we have throughout the world 567 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 1: right now and especially in America, So curiosity being the 568 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:27,920 Speaker 1: opposite of that, because you know, when you're curious about people, 569 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,440 Speaker 1: you grow, you learn, and you cite many examples of 570 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:37,159 Speaker 1: different conversations between people that are unexpected bedfellows, like the 571 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 1: kid who was the son of the guy from the 572 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,680 Speaker 1: KKK having dinner. Can you talk about that story a 573 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 1: little bit? 574 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:44,800 Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, for sure, for sure. And just like the 575 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:47,840 Speaker 2: principle here is that most of the book is talking 576 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 2: about loneliness, isolation, social alienation, and the instinct to retreat 577 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 2: from one another when we must turn to one another 578 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 2: with compassion in times of joy and in times of pain. 579 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:01,920 Speaker 2: And then in this last chapter, I talk about how 580 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 2: this social alienation, the atomization that is definitional to our society, 581 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 2: is not only depleting. 582 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 1: What does atomization mean. 583 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 2: Like separating out individuals one from the other, the myth 584 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 2: of radical individualism, the idea that we're going to go 585 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 2: it alone, that I don't need anybody, and so I 586 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 2: am totally separate and apart from everyone. We are all 587 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 2: bound up in the in the bond of life together, 588 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 2: and we need to recognize that. And so, but what 589 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 2: happens is with this myth of radical individualization, we think 590 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,240 Speaker 2: we don't actually need each other, and we can go 591 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 2: it alone entirely, and we distance ourselves from relationships. And 592 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 2: this not only harms our spirits and harms our communities, 593 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:48,080 Speaker 2: but it's actually endangering our democracy. Hannah Arendt, the great 594 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:53,600 Speaker 2: twentieth century philosopher, wrote that social alienation and loneliness are 595 00:28:53,640 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 2: preconditions of tyranny, that conspiracy theories and tyrannical regimes cannot 596 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 2: take root in a society if we know each other. 597 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 2: And we are living in a country and in a 598 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 2: time where thirty percent of Americans say that they do 599 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 2: not know the names of their next door neighbors, and 600 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 2: so we are really alienated from one another, and that's 601 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:18,960 Speaker 2: very dangerous, and I think that's part of the reason 602 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,040 Speaker 2: that we've seen over the last several years, just so 603 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 2: much division. The ground is rich and ready for the 604 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 2: kind of conspiracy theories that we're seeing taking root and 605 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 2: the kind of divisiveness. So the question is can we 606 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 2: turn to one another not only with compassion, but with curiosity. 607 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,080 Speaker 2: And the story of Derek Black is one in which 608 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 2: this is a guy who was the son of the 609 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 2: Grand Wizard of the KKK. He was David Duke's nephew. 610 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 2: I think he went off to a liberal arts college 611 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 2: in Florida. I don't know how his family ever let 612 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 2: him go, but at some point when he was there, 613 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 2: he was outed as a white nationalist. Some in fact, awkwardly, 614 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 2: somebody was sitting in the dining hall and looking at 615 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 2: some white nationalist website and making fun of it, and 616 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 2: then realized that the guy who wrote the article was 617 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 2: the name of the guy who was sitting across the 618 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 2: table laughing with them. And so this guy is totally alienated. 619 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 2: Now nobody wants to engage him on this campus, except 620 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 2: for one Jewish kid who invites him for Shavist dinner 621 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 2: and they sit together, and I imagine it's a very 622 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,239 Speaker 2: awkward dinner, like you're literally sitting across the table from 623 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 2: a neo Nazi in your dorm room. And then the 624 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 2: meal ends and he invites him back for the next jabst, 625 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 2: and a couple more friends join, and then again and 626 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 2: again and again, and by the end of the year, 627 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 2: this guy, Derek Black, has essentially renounced white nationalism and 628 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 2: writes a public letter for the Southern Poverty Law Center 629 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:42,720 Speaker 2: about how he was raised on a lie, on a 630 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 2: series of lies about white supremacy and about the dream 631 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 2: of a jew, free, black, free Latino free America, and 632 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 2: that that's not where we should be heading as human beings. 633 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:57,400 Speaker 2: And so what I wonder in the book, and there's 634 00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 2: been a lot of work on Derek Black and what 635 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 2: happened to him that he was able to make that 636 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:06,959 Speaker 2: trans transformation from being a white nationalist to being, you know, 637 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:11,200 Speaker 2: a menji guy. But I'm really interested not only in that, 638 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 2: but also in that kid who invited him for Shabas 639 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 2: dinner and then the others who joined, Because I don't 640 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 2: think I would invite a neo Nazi to my home 641 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 2: for Shabbat dinner. But I'm really glad that someone did. 642 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 2: And what does it mean to sit at the table 643 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 2: with someone, even someone who doesn't see you in your 644 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 2: full humanity, and not get up and just stay at 645 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:37,840 Speaker 2: the table. What seeds could be planted in those encounters, 646 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 2: especially when we engage them with an open heart. And 647 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 2: we can only do this if we feel safe, if 648 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 2: we're really legitimately safe. The work is not on everyone, 649 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 2: but the work is on some of us. If we 650 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:53,200 Speaker 2: can stay at the table, and if we can hold curiosity, 651 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 2: what might change? And in that chapter I describe a 652 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 2: couple of stories, some of failure where you know, as 653 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 2: been hours and hours at the table, and I have 654 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 2: a hundred of these stories because I do tend to 655 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 2: stay at the table when I can, but where you 656 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 2: think like nothing really happens, and then a few stories 657 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 2: where it actually changes someone's life. And so could we 658 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 2: sit there and just stay and hold curiosity, because if 659 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 2: we do, something might be born. You know, we have a. 660 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:26,800 Speaker 3: Ton of listeners who it's not the neo Nazi at college, 661 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 3: but it is Uncle John, or it's mom or dad. 662 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:32,960 Speaker 3: So can you talk a little bit about in the 663 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 3: context of your family, having someone who. 664 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:37,880 Speaker 2: Has these totally opposing views. 665 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,360 Speaker 3: And when to sit down and have curiosity, and when 666 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 3: it's maybe too toxic to do that. 667 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 2: Right, well, I do believe that we have to be safe. 668 00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:50,720 Speaker 2: And you know, when we are encountering someone whose worldview 669 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,280 Speaker 2: is dramatically different from ours, that could be something of 670 00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 2: kind of in the realm of intellectual curiosity, and that 671 00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:58,680 Speaker 2: could be in the realm of danger. And so I 672 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 2: think the first thing we have to do is assess, 673 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 2: you know, am I the person who can be in 674 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:08,520 Speaker 2: this relationship, and sometimes ending relationships is actually an act 675 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,560 Speaker 2: of self love, you know. I think that that's important 676 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:15,600 Speaker 2: for us to note that some relationships are so dangerous, abusive, 677 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 2: toxic that staying in them does harm to us. But 678 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:23,480 Speaker 2: I think that we in general are too quick to 679 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:27,200 Speaker 2: end relationships, and so aside from those relationships that actually 680 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:32,720 Speaker 2: contribute great harm to our lives, I think that most relationships, 681 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 2: most relationships, we can actually stay at the table. So 682 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 2: what I envision, Catherine, is this like ven diagram of 683 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:45,080 Speaker 2: the human experience with these overlapping circles, and generally when 684 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,280 Speaker 2: we are sitting at that table with our uncle or 685 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 2: with our you know, with the crazy person in the 686 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 2: family who sees the world in a totally different way. 687 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 2: We're hearing him at the margins of his views, and 688 00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,120 Speaker 2: we're responding from the margins of our views, and so 689 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:03,360 Speaker 2: we are completely oppositional to one another. But in fact, 690 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 2: aside from the margins, there's probably a good amount of 691 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,800 Speaker 2: overlap in what we do care about. So I share 692 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:14,920 Speaker 2: in this one story in that chapter about an encounter 693 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,880 Speaker 2: that I had with someone who really saw the world 694 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:21,200 Speaker 2: in dramatically different ways than I did. And I stayed 695 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:23,880 Speaker 2: at the table for almost three hours with him, and 696 00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:28,000 Speaker 2: I was desperate to find commonality with this guy, and 697 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:31,840 Speaker 2: we disagreed on everything. I mean, the whole way that 698 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 2: we look at the world we disagreed on, and it 699 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:38,440 Speaker 2: was very disturbing for me. And even still, what I 700 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:40,680 Speaker 2: knew from talking to him was that he cared about 701 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 2: his kids, and he cared about his community. I was 702 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,760 Speaker 2: disturbed by where he draws the line of his family 703 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:51,920 Speaker 2: and his community and his responsibility to those, but I 704 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:55,479 Speaker 2: could see that he was driven by care and that mattered. Okay, 705 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:58,200 Speaker 2: So that was enough that he's not a person who 706 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,359 Speaker 2: I have. There's zero that I can see in him, 707 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:05,120 Speaker 2: But I did walk away very disturbed. But I'm glad 708 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:09,360 Speaker 2: I stayed because many years later, it turned out that 709 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,680 Speaker 2: some of what I shared of my perspective in that 710 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:16,600 Speaker 2: conversation may have penetrated a little bit, because he ends 711 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:19,880 Speaker 2: up shifting his approach. And he's a public figure, and 712 00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:22,400 Speaker 2: so I only know about this from the newspaper, but 713 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,799 Speaker 2: his approach shifts, and some of his associates credit it 714 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 2: to that lunch that we had together years before, Because 715 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 2: when you sit with someone at the table for two 716 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:34,920 Speaker 2: or three hours, you can't make them into a caricature 717 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:37,719 Speaker 2: of themselves anymore. You see them as a person, and 718 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 2: you see them as a person with flaws, with value, 719 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:44,000 Speaker 2: you know, with beliefs, with ideas, And so when we're 720 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:46,440 Speaker 2: sitting at the table with our uncle, can we move 721 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,919 Speaker 2: away from the margins and actually start with, Oh, you're 722 00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:53,759 Speaker 2: afraid for the future, So am I? You know you 723 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:56,440 Speaker 2: feel like we could all be doing better? So do I? 724 00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:00,520 Speaker 2: You know you're really disturbed by how broken? So am I? 725 00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:03,440 Speaker 2: And at least have enough of a foundation that we 726 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:06,239 Speaker 2: can stay at the table, and then eventually, at some 727 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,440 Speaker 2: point we might realize that those overlapping spaces are a 728 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:12,520 Speaker 2: little bit deeper and richer than we imagined, and they 729 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:16,400 Speaker 2: might help some healing come about. We know, for example, 730 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:20,719 Speaker 2: in the struggle for justice for LGBTQ people, that the 731 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:24,080 Speaker 2: way that movements started to happen, especially in the struggle 732 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 2: for marriage equality, for example, was because people started recognizing 733 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:33,200 Speaker 2: that their loved ones were gay. And once you know 734 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,200 Speaker 2: that someone you love is gay, it's very hard to 735 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:41,120 Speaker 2: hold this really strong oppositional view. So I think part 736 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:45,000 Speaker 2: of the challenge is can we stay at the table 737 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 2: without being endangered or diminished, but in an act of 738 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,600 Speaker 2: curiosity and in a gesture of presence and love, in 739 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:56,520 Speaker 2: the hope that it might one day lead to a 740 00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:57,640 Speaker 2: shift in the conversation. 741 00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:01,600 Speaker 1: Do you have experiences where you feel like you didn't 742 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,800 Speaker 1: have or you failed, or you weren't able to provide 743 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:07,200 Speaker 1: what was expected from you as a rabbi? 744 00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,279 Speaker 2: Oh God, there's so many. There's so many of them. 745 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,000 Speaker 2: I mean, in the category of staying at the table 746 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:14,880 Speaker 2: in curiosity. I mean, one of the stories that I 747 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:16,600 Speaker 2: share there is when I went to sit with a 748 00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:21,040 Speaker 2: pretty prominent public figure who was writing views that I 749 00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:26,239 Speaker 2: found really dangerous, not just like cruel, but actually dangerous 750 00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:28,480 Speaker 2: to people I love. And I went to sit with 751 00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:31,640 Speaker 2: him because I had this kind of naive view that 752 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:34,319 Speaker 2: you know, like I think if he just hears me 753 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:38,479 Speaker 2: talk about this, that I can humanize the issue for him, 754 00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:41,319 Speaker 2: and then he might take a beat, he might think 755 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,359 Speaker 2: before writing, you know. Anyway, And in that experience, as 756 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:47,000 Speaker 2: I share in the book, I really did fail. I 757 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:50,000 Speaker 2: mean I felt like he was not listening, Catherine, like 758 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,120 Speaker 2: you're saying. I mean, some of your listeners might really 759 00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:53,520 Speaker 2: feel that this is the way that some of their 760 00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:56,799 Speaker 2: family members treat them, but like they can't hear. There 761 00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:00,279 Speaker 2: is an iron barrier around their hearts and they can't here. 762 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:02,719 Speaker 2: And so I failed. But I didn't feel like I 763 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:06,720 Speaker 2: wasted my time because I did grow through it. Pastorally, 764 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:11,120 Speaker 2: I've had many failures where you know, I myself retreated 765 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:14,480 Speaker 2: from people who were in pain because I didn't understand 766 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:19,360 Speaker 2: that how it was my job to actually step closer 767 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:21,799 Speaker 2: to the pain. I worried that I wasn't going to 768 00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:23,799 Speaker 2: have the right words. I had all the things that 769 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:26,640 Speaker 2: we've talked about. I mean, I worried that I would 770 00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:30,320 Speaker 2: fail a person, that I would screw up and instead 771 00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:33,799 Speaker 2: of seeing them in their pain and moving closer to 772 00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:36,480 Speaker 2: the pain. In a moment of isolation, I pulled away 773 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:38,319 Speaker 2: because I was scared that I wasn't going to be 774 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,319 Speaker 2: good enough and strong enough. I tried to look back 775 00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,839 Speaker 2: at those moments now as a learner, clearly not a hero, 776 00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:48,080 Speaker 2: but also not a victim. I mean, we only learn 777 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:51,000 Speaker 2: these things by failing in many ways and by seeing 778 00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:54,360 Speaker 2: that that actually it hurt somebody when we engage that way. 779 00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:58,720 Speaker 2: We have this powerful idea in the Jewish tradition called tea, 780 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:03,120 Speaker 2: which is translated as loving rebuke, and the idea is like, 781 00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:07,600 Speaker 2: don't cut people off, rebuke them with love. So we 782 00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:11,319 Speaker 2: approach people who've hurt us and we let them know 783 00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:14,480 Speaker 2: you really let me down. Like you were saying earlier, Chelsea, 784 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,359 Speaker 2: I mean like, don't bring it to the grave, bring 785 00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:20,200 Speaker 2: it to the person, because there might be a possibility 786 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:24,719 Speaker 2: of healing here. And I have found that through that 787 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:28,120 Speaker 2: kind of loving rebuke, I've been able to grow as 788 00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:30,520 Speaker 2: a human being, and so I'm so grateful for it. 789 00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:33,440 Speaker 2: It's actually a mitzvah. It's an obligation to turn to 790 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:35,600 Speaker 2: someone with loving rebuke when they've hurt you or let 791 00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:39,759 Speaker 2: you down. And those moments become transformational moments for us. 792 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:42,680 Speaker 1: I agree. I wanted to talk about the subject of 793 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:46,399 Speaker 1: Israel and what's happening to the Palestinians and to the 794 00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:49,360 Speaker 1: Israelis right now. I know you've gotten a lot of 795 00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:55,479 Speaker 1: blowback from certain Jewish communities and Israelis about being pro 796 00:39:55,520 --> 00:40:00,120 Speaker 1: Palestinian and pro Israel. Those two things can coexist. I 797 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:04,680 Speaker 1: don't know a single woman who is happy to see 798 00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:07,360 Speaker 1: any sort of violence in the world, Like I don't 799 00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:11,480 Speaker 1: know that that's possible for females to not be consumed 800 00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:14,800 Speaker 1: by what is happening to innocent children, to innocent people 801 00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:18,279 Speaker 1: on both sides. And it feels like, I mean, you've 802 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:20,200 Speaker 1: been pretty vocal about it, So I want to let 803 00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:22,720 Speaker 1: you talk about your views and how you feel. 804 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:27,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, really, at the heart of my theology 805 00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:31,440 Speaker 2: and my understanding of the world is that every single 806 00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:34,680 Speaker 2: human being is created in God's own image and therefore 807 00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:39,880 Speaker 2: deserves to live in dignity and in peace and injustice. 808 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:43,399 Speaker 2: And so I mean, I've spent many years as an 809 00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:46,160 Speaker 2: activist working to build a more just and loving world 810 00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:50,279 Speaker 2: and speaking very frankly and openly about the need for 811 00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:54,400 Speaker 2: Palestinians to achieve justice and to achieve self determination, which 812 00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:58,359 Speaker 2: I believe is also the only way that Israel will 813 00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:01,840 Speaker 2: have a safe and just future. And so I don't 814 00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:06,719 Speaker 2: see the humanity honoring the humanity of Israeli Jews as 815 00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:09,560 Speaker 2: in any way contradicting the need to honor the humanity 816 00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:13,640 Speaker 2: of Palestinians or vice versa. I actually feel that people 817 00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:18,760 Speaker 2: choosing sides in this is really there's something really perverse 818 00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:20,840 Speaker 2: about what's happening, as if this is like, you know, 819 00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:23,400 Speaker 2: we're like it's like the super Bowl and people are 820 00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,840 Speaker 2: choosing which team they like better. But I am very 821 00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:30,719 Speaker 2: moved by and inspired by the Israelis and Palestinians on 822 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:34,000 Speaker 2: the ground who acknowledge that there are millions of people 823 00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:36,640 Speaker 2: living in a tiny sliver of land. None of them 824 00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:39,920 Speaker 2: are going anywhere. We have to learn how to live together, 825 00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:44,000 Speaker 2: and I believe that as a diaspora community, the best 826 00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:47,080 Speaker 2: way that we can help advance a just future for 827 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:50,360 Speaker 2: all people is not by choosing sides and entrenching in 828 00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:52,880 Speaker 2: false binaries and trying to prove why my team is 829 00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:58,720 Speaker 2: more right than your team, but actually lifting up, amplifying, platforming, resourcing. 830 00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:03,440 Speaker 2: The Israelisians on the ground who are from the depths 831 00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:07,560 Speaker 2: of their anguish actually dreaming of a different kind of future, 832 00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:11,880 Speaker 2: not a future of eternal war, but a future in 833 00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:15,560 Speaker 2: which the people are able to achieve both individual and 834 00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:20,879 Speaker 2: collective rights. And two people who've been essentially persecuted by 835 00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:25,720 Speaker 2: the world and marginalized by the entire world, Jews and Palestinians, 836 00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:29,759 Speaker 2: who actually are very well suited to understand and empathize 837 00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:33,960 Speaker 2: with one another's pain and one another's need for home 838 00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:37,439 Speaker 2: and one another's quest for self determination, should be able 839 00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:40,680 Speaker 2: to work together toward a different kind of future. And 840 00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:44,560 Speaker 2: you framed this as something that a lot of women 841 00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:47,359 Speaker 2: seem to be unders have a kind of a heart 842 00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:49,840 Speaker 2: that's big enough to understand that, or capacious enough to 843 00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:52,799 Speaker 2: understand that, maybe more so than men. And I just 844 00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:55,520 Speaker 2: want to say, I mean, I know many men who 845 00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:59,520 Speaker 2: are also part of this movement for building a just 846 00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:03,160 Speaker 2: future for both peoples. But I am struck that it 847 00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:06,080 Speaker 2: is the men who are leading this war effort on 848 00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:09,279 Speaker 2: both sides, and that it is women who are the 849 00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:12,319 Speaker 2: voices that are really calling out for peace, who are 850 00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:16,040 Speaker 2: leading the movements for peace. And I am so struck 851 00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:20,360 Speaker 2: by voices like Vivian silvers. Vivian was murdered on October 852 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:24,120 Speaker 2: seventh in her key boots. Vivian had dedicated her entire 853 00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:27,880 Speaker 2: life to building women wage peace, to building movements for 854 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:33,160 Speaker 2: peace with Israeli, Jews, Palestinians, Bedouin women. And many people 855 00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:36,000 Speaker 2: said when because we thought at first that Vivian had 856 00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:39,000 Speaker 2: been taken captive, and then found out about a month 857 00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:42,160 Speaker 2: later that actually she had been killed on October seventh, 858 00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:45,080 Speaker 2: And so her funeral was held about a month later, 859 00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:48,319 Speaker 2: and many of the people who I love, you know, 860 00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:50,800 Speaker 2: who live there, said that her funeral was the first 861 00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:55,560 Speaker 2: hopeful moment that they had experienced, because it was actually 862 00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:59,880 Speaker 2: a funeral that was attended by Jews and Palestinians, and 863 00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:03,160 Speaker 2: they were all there saying, we have to take up 864 00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:05,400 Speaker 2: the baton and carry on, we have to carry on 865 00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:08,759 Speaker 2: Vivian's legacy. And so I really feel that this is 866 00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:10,839 Speaker 2: a moment in which we have to move away from 867 00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:14,040 Speaker 2: these kind of stake in the ground, false binary positions 868 00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:20,759 Speaker 2: and instead affirm the common humanity that intersecting part of 869 00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:24,560 Speaker 2: the ven diagram between people who see the world very differently. 870 00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:27,880 Speaker 2: And the book comes into the world in this really 871 00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:30,719 Speaker 2: interesting moment when it's really hard for people to see 872 00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:33,360 Speaker 2: each other and hear each other because we're in so 873 00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:36,399 Speaker 2: much anguish and trauma and fear, and when you are 874 00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,439 Speaker 2: in that kind of mindset, it's really hard to see 875 00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:43,759 Speaker 2: each other. But in fact, everybody is in anguish and 876 00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:46,000 Speaker 2: trauma and fear right now, and so that should be 877 00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:48,799 Speaker 2: a point of connection to help us meet each other, 878 00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:53,640 Speaker 2: sorrow meeting sorrow, and vulnerability meeting vulnerability and actually begin 879 00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:56,960 Speaker 2: to think together about what kind of just society we 880 00:44:57,000 --> 00:44:59,719 Speaker 2: can build on the other side of all of this heartache. 881 00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:02,320 Speaker 1: I would just be so much easier and so much 882 00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:05,920 Speaker 1: more humane if women were in charge of Like when 883 00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:07,879 Speaker 1: you talk the way you're talking and I'm thinking about 884 00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:10,759 Speaker 1: net and Yahoo, it's like, yeah, he's in pain and 885 00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:12,680 Speaker 1: he's not going to get out of it in our lifetime. 886 00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:15,279 Speaker 1: Like I don't want that person running the show. I 887 00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:18,279 Speaker 1: want women. I want like four women going in there 888 00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:21,560 Speaker 1: and coming out with a solution and you know, like Condeliza, 889 00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:25,240 Speaker 1: Rice and Angela Merkel and Oprah let Oprah go figure 890 00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:28,480 Speaker 1: it out, you know, just women. Though it's the violence 891 00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:32,879 Speaker 1: is from men. Women would never reduce ourselves like this 892 00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:35,879 Speaker 1: and want to hurt so badly, you know what I mean. 893 00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:41,280 Speaker 1: It's just like the lowest form of rage is this violence. 894 00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:43,800 Speaker 1: It's almost like there's a smarter way to be rageful. 895 00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:46,600 Speaker 1: Why do you have to reduce yourself to the dumbest way. 896 00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:49,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, And people don't like in this conflict the language 897 00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:52,040 Speaker 2: of cycle of violence because it feels like it's giving 898 00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:54,640 Speaker 2: a moral equivalency to the different kinds of violence. I mean, 899 00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:59,320 Speaker 2: nobody likes that language. And yet we literally hear people saying, 900 00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:03,359 Speaker 2: we are engaging in this violence because of what they 901 00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:06,600 Speaker 2: did to us, right, I mean that is the driving force. 902 00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:10,480 Speaker 2: Because they hurt us, we are going to hurt them. 903 00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:13,799 Speaker 2: And then you hear Rachel Goldberg, who speaks a different language. Right, 904 00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:15,759 Speaker 2: I'm adding her to your list of women who we 905 00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:18,439 Speaker 2: wish we're running. You know, we're running the world right now. 906 00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:22,359 Speaker 2: But you hear bereaved mothers speaking a different language. Many 907 00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:25,120 Speaker 2: of them are saying, I don't want any more parents 908 00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:28,600 Speaker 2: to bury their children. I know that pain, you know, Chelsea. 909 00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:31,879 Speaker 2: One of my dear friends is a beautiful preacher here, 910 00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:35,759 Speaker 2: a black minister here in La and her son was 911 00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:39,279 Speaker 2: shot and killed in a terrible act of violence a 912 00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:42,440 Speaker 2: few years ago, and she I went with her to 913 00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:48,040 Speaker 2: the sentencing trial of her son's murderer, and she was weeping, 914 00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:50,000 Speaker 2: and she said, the last thing in the world I 915 00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:53,120 Speaker 2: want is another mother to now have to grieve for 916 00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:55,080 Speaker 2: her black son who's going to get locked up in 917 00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:57,560 Speaker 2: prison forever because he took the life of my black son. 918 00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:00,480 Speaker 2: She's like, that's not what I want in this world. 919 00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:03,719 Speaker 2: And I think she's calling us, and many of these 920 00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:07,040 Speaker 2: women are calling us to imagine a different kind of 921 00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:10,920 Speaker 2: reality in which we don't answer violence with violence, but 922 00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:14,719 Speaker 2: we dream together of what could be possible. I turned 923 00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:16,640 Speaker 2: to the voices of the people who are in the 924 00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:19,719 Speaker 2: Brief Family's Forum, for example, the Parents Circle and Brief 925 00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:23,800 Speaker 2: Family's Forum. These are Palestinians and Israelis who have lost 926 00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:26,880 Speaker 2: immediate family members to this conflict over the course of 927 00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:29,759 Speaker 2: the last many years, and they turn to each other 928 00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:32,200 Speaker 2: from the depths of their grief and say, we don't 929 00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:37,440 Speaker 2: want any more people to die. Can we collectively imagine 930 00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:40,479 Speaker 2: a different kind of future? And that is holy work 931 00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:43,399 Speaker 2: and very hard work. And I wish that those were 932 00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:45,960 Speaker 2: the voices that were being amplified on social media and 933 00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:49,160 Speaker 2: from our pulpits and from our you know, and and 934 00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:51,279 Speaker 2: in news media, because those are the voices that are 935 00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:55,000 Speaker 2: actually ultimately going to bring about a different kind of future. 936 00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:58,120 Speaker 2: And we know, you know, and I know that we'll 937 00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:00,800 Speaker 2: get there eventually. The question is how many more people 938 00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:01,920 Speaker 2: have to die before we do? 939 00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:04,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, we're going to take a break and we'll 940 00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:11,440 Speaker 1: be right back. And we're right back with bye bye, 941 00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:14,560 Speaker 1: Sharon Rauss. This was very eliminating. Thank you so much 942 00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:16,520 Speaker 1: for being on the podcast today. I just want to 943 00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:18,480 Speaker 1: before you go to talk a little bit about Eycar. 944 00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:22,120 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh yeah. So we built this community in 945 00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:24,359 Speaker 2: two thousand and four. Remember two thousand and four, when 946 00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:26,760 Speaker 2: we thought that things were so bad and they couldn't 947 00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:30,040 Speaker 2: possibly get worse. It was like it was the war 948 00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:32,359 Speaker 2: in Iraq. It was the you know, the Bush era 949 00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:35,200 Speaker 2: Post nine to eleven. And I moved out to la 950 00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:39,239 Speaker 2: from New York, and really I really felt that we 951 00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:44,359 Speaker 2: were called to excavate our beautiful, rich, thousands year old 952 00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:46,919 Speaker 2: Jewish tradition in order to figure out how to live 953 00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:51,680 Speaker 2: lives of meaning and purpose and how to understand how 954 00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:54,160 Speaker 2: we were called to live in a time of great 955 00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:57,000 Speaker 2: moral crisis. So kind of at the intersection of those 956 00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:00,160 Speaker 2: two questions. I wanted to build a community of joy, 957 00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:02,760 Speaker 2: a community where we could laugh together, where we could 958 00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:05,160 Speaker 2: dream together, and where we could work for a just 959 00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:08,960 Speaker 2: future together, and where we could reclaim some of our 960 00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:12,359 Speaker 2: ancient tradition and live into the best of what our 961 00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:16,359 Speaker 2: tradition demands of us. And then I realized about ten 962 00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:19,440 Speaker 2: years after building this amazing community, which you know, like 963 00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:22,200 Speaker 2: all the best people started coming to us. I mean, 964 00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:24,560 Speaker 2: as you said, you have many friends who are there, 965 00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:27,960 Speaker 2: and it's a community for like really good people who 966 00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:31,560 Speaker 2: care deeply about the world and also want to be 967 00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:35,319 Speaker 2: able to lift their spirits, you know, and dream of 968 00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:38,319 Speaker 2: a different kind of reality. So about ten years in 969 00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:41,640 Speaker 2: I gave this sermon called the Amen Effect, and it 970 00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:45,480 Speaker 2: was about how we who dream of building the Beloved Community, 971 00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:48,040 Speaker 2: and we who are working every single day to build 972 00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:51,640 Speaker 2: a more just society and to fight for racial justice 973 00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:55,000 Speaker 2: and climate justice and LGBTQ equality and all the things, 974 00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:57,640 Speaker 2: how we had to start by building the beloved community 975 00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:00,640 Speaker 2: inside that we actually had to turn to one another 976 00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:03,680 Speaker 2: in love and in care. We needed to not only 977 00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:07,160 Speaker 2: protest together, but we actually had to dance together and 978 00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:09,840 Speaker 2: cry together, and show up at the bedside and show up, 979 00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:12,799 Speaker 2: you know, at the grave side together, and that was 980 00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:15,520 Speaker 2: the kind of missing link, I think, and that's when 981 00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:19,680 Speaker 2: the community really fully began to live into itself. And 982 00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:24,200 Speaker 2: so it is a community of love and justice. It's 983 00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:28,800 Speaker 2: fun and funny and serious and loving, and the music's 984 00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:32,040 Speaker 2: great and the people are, you know, incredible, and we're 985 00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:36,760 Speaker 2: really pushing ourselves to try to envision faith community in 986 00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:39,799 Speaker 2: a really different way, one that suits the needs of 987 00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:43,080 Speaker 2: our time and translating ancient ideas into a language that 988 00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:46,680 Speaker 2: can actually help us live more deeply and more responsibly today. 989 00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:48,680 Speaker 2: So beautiful, thank you. 990 00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:51,360 Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much. It was a pleasure to 991 00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:53,200 Speaker 1: meet you. I'm going to see you again in person, 992 00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:54,560 Speaker 1: hopefully sooner than later. 993 00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:55,120 Speaker 2: Yeah. 994 00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:57,520 Speaker 1: And the book is called The Amen Effect, and it 995 00:50:57,560 --> 00:50:59,960 Speaker 1: was really beautiful and it was the very I was 996 00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:03,680 Speaker 1: really what the doctor ordered. So I hope you pick 997 00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:05,920 Speaker 1: up a copy. And yes, thank you so much for 998 00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:06,279 Speaker 1: being here. 999 00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:09,400 Speaker 2: Take care, thank you, be well. 1000 00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:12,640 Speaker 1: Okay, So, Chelsea Handler is my name, and comedy is 1001 00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:16,080 Speaker 1: my game. Comedy and therapy are my games. I'm sorry, 1002 00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:19,279 Speaker 1: I misspoke. I have added more shows. I added a 1003 00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:22,440 Speaker 1: second show in Vancouver, so I have two shows in Vancouver. 1004 00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:28,000 Speaker 1: March twenty ninth March thirtieth, I am coming to Calgary Victoria, Colowna. 1005 00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:32,160 Speaker 1: Then I've added another show in Sydney, Australia on July thirteenth, 1006 00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:35,560 Speaker 1: So i have two shows in Sydney July twelfth and thirteenth. 1007 00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:37,560 Speaker 1: For other shows in Australia and New Zealand, go to 1008 00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:42,080 Speaker 1: Chelseahandler dot com. And I've added two shows in Oklahoma, Norman, 1009 00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:47,560 Speaker 1: Oklahoma on May third, and one in Thackerville, Oklahoma, which 1010 00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:50,040 Speaker 1: is May fourth, and then I'll be at the YouTube 1011 00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:53,680 Speaker 1: Theater May eleventh in Los Angeles with Matteo Laine and 1012 00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:58,000 Speaker 1: Vanessa Gonzalez and Fortune Femster and Sam Jay. Those are 1013 00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:00,880 Speaker 1: my updates and more shows are coming, so pay attention 1014 00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:02,120 Speaker 1: to If you'd. 1015 00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:04,359 Speaker 3: Like advice from Chelsea, shoot us an email at Dear 1016 00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:07,120 Speaker 3: Chelsea podcast at gmail dot com and be sure to 1017 00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:10,640 Speaker 3: include your phone number. Dear Chelsea is edited and engineered 1018 00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:13,920 Speaker 3: by Brad Dickert executive producer Catherine Law and be sure 1019 00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:18,880 Speaker 3: to check out our merch at Chelseahandler dot com