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Speaker 1: This is the meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

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Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You

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Speaker 1: can't predict anything.

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Speaker 2: The meat Eater Podcast is brought to you by first Light.

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Speaker 2: Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands, or scouting

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Speaker 2: for ELK. First Light has performance apparel to support every

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Speaker 2: hunter in every environment. Check it out at first light

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Speaker 2: dot com, f I R S T L I t

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Speaker 2: E dot com.

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Speaker 1: Before I even introduce today's guest, I'm just gonna get

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Speaker 1: something awkward out of the way because people might be

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Speaker 1: able to feel the awkwardness in the room between me

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Speaker 1: and Chili. Cut it with a knife. I just had to. Now,

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Speaker 1: I just had to do an investigation on Chili. I

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Speaker 1: had the subpoena his on X record. I had a subpoena.

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Speaker 3: No, you didn't nothing, I gave it to you.

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Speaker 4: He could have subpoenaed you.

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Speaker 1: A subpoenaed his on ex track M. I was talking

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Speaker 1: about a spot where I took Chile and she she's like, oh,

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Speaker 1: you know a little over west of there. I'm waiting, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and get to look and he's like he thought that,

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Speaker 1: he thought that. He thinks that if you take him

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Speaker 1: to a spot, what what becomes private is the route

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Speaker 1: to get there, not the spot.

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Speaker 3: That's not true what I said.

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Speaker 1: Meaning if there's a point on a map and you're like, well,

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Speaker 1: we came in from the east, Chili be like, okay,

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Speaker 1: so if I come back with my buddies, I'll just

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Speaker 1: make sure to go there from the west. But my

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Speaker 1: investigation found that he was sort of correct. He was

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Speaker 1: sort of in the okay and sort of not unless

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Speaker 1: he unless he said, at this point, I need to

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Speaker 1: turn my tracker off.

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Speaker 3: If I ever showed Steve.

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Speaker 1: Paused his tracker for a minute and then went about

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Speaker 1: his day and then clicked it back on. There's That's

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Speaker 1: all just want of people be quite. If they can

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Speaker 1: say they can feel at home, they might be able

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Speaker 1: to feel the Chili changed the body language.

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Speaker 5: Look in the camera, make eye contact because right now

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Speaker 5: you're you're giving off a very guilty air about you because.

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Speaker 3: Look, I gave you some intel you did.

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Speaker 1: I appreciate that intel, but you got it through crooked means.

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Speaker 3: That's not that's subjective. I So the intel is you

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Speaker 3: were telling Steve about the deer that's in He was.

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Speaker 1: Telling about some stuff from them. No, he was telling

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Speaker 1: me about some stuff that I'd never looked at. So

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Speaker 1: that's why I'm not mad, because now I'm glad.

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Speaker 4: That he told me that.

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Speaker 1: Okay, And what I might do is make you a

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Speaker 1: little line.

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Speaker 3: Like don't cross this line.

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Speaker 6: Don't You're gonna make me a line on public land.

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Speaker 3: Which I can I can't cross.

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Speaker 1: I'm not getting anything. I'm not getting any like righteous

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Speaker 1: in the nation. I'm getting nothing from Cal. I'm watching

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Speaker 1: Cal and see if he's got an opinion.

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Speaker 3: About as high as they go.

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Speaker 7: I haven't heard enough from Chile to understand what the

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Speaker 7: whole situation is. I mean, I'll tell you right now,

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Speaker 7: I'm thinking about going into a spot for Thanksgiving that

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Speaker 7: I know some people hunted in almost a decade ago,

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Speaker 7: and they haven't walked in there. And I was talking

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Speaker 7: about that with a buddy of mine and he's like, well,

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Speaker 7: let's just not bring that up.

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Speaker 1: I always thinking about explaining this. The other day took

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Speaker 1: my boy and now that's gonna be a little I

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Speaker 1: took my boy and his buddy from high school to

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Speaker 1: seth spot and we gave my boy's buddy a real

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Speaker 1: talking to about it. No good well he respects, you know. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we gave a real talking to and I almost went

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Speaker 1: into I was almost gonna tell him, like an add

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Speaker 1: of detail, saying, the situation you're in is this might

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Speaker 1: prevent you from discovering something in the future that you

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Speaker 1: just know about on your own. So when you do that,

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Speaker 1: you're you're sort of saying, well, I would have found

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Speaker 1: out about that anyway, but now I'm I can't.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I appreciated when we hunted with Cal's buddy a

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Speaker 5: couple of weeks ago. I met him maybe five minutes

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Speaker 5: prior to him just looking at me in the eyes

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Speaker 5: and saying, I better not catch you in any of

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Speaker 5: these places every again without you asking me first.

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Speaker 1: I just get out there. I was given some very

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Speaker 1: frank I was given some very very good intel eleven

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Speaker 1: years ago to the ten year point eleven years ago,

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Speaker 1: and I would not dare.

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Speaker 4: Do that unless I knew that those guys were.

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Speaker 8: Dead as soon as all of this on public land.

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Speaker 4: Mm hmm. Interesting, Thank you very.

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Speaker 1: But it's not like it's a whole thing. Okay, it's

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Speaker 1: a whole thing.

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Speaker 6: I do feel I do feel a little guilty, But

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Speaker 6: one we weren't hunting the same drantage.

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Speaker 3: And two.

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Speaker 1: You were looking over into my zone.

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Speaker 6: You get on any top, you can see for miles

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Speaker 6: on any rich.

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Speaker 1: So do the homes like.

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Speaker 6: And also, it's not like I brought more people in there.

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Speaker 6: It's not like I brought anyone in there.

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Speaker 4: No, you brought the guy that I in there. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: so it's like twice as.

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Speaker 1: Bad because you both are morally you both are morally bankrupt.

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Speaker 5: Or it could be half as bad because they're both

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Speaker 5: splitting the sin.

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Speaker 1: Split the sin is among like if two of us go,

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Speaker 1: it's like being a little bad.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, okay, So so that brings into question whether ONYX

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Speaker 9: should post where all of the extremely high density hunting

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Speaker 9: locations are to help people out, because there are locations

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Speaker 9: all around the National Park where you'd be shocked at

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Speaker 9: how many people show up to the same spot every day,

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Speaker 9: you know, and hunt sometimes fifty yards from.

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Speaker 8: Each other outside the park, outside the park that day,

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Speaker 8: and that were going on for over one hundred years

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Speaker 8: because as they expanded the park, they just move that

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Speaker 8: you know, that firing line to the new boundary.

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Speaker 7: So it's funny that bring that out because of a

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Speaker 7: friend of mine was like, hey, I can't go in there.

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Speaker 7: But he's like, I got a spot you should go

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Speaker 7: check out.

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Speaker 1: And if someone talks to you. You never heard of me.

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Speaker 3: Man exactly.

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Speaker 7: And I looked at it on the map and I

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Speaker 7: was like, that looks like a spot where you go

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Speaker 7: in and you're going to be within one hundred yards

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Speaker 7: of ten other dudes on the same ridge.

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Speaker 3: Because I'm like, I'm looking at it on.

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Speaker 1: The map, one of them secret spots.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, the only place to go is right here. And

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Speaker 7: he's like, that's where those guys killed those bulls.

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Speaker 8: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I was like, uh huh, weird.

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Speaker 1: A moment ago, you heard the voice of today's special guest,

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Speaker 1: Rick Wall and former former that's the kind of we like,

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Speaker 1: former Yelso National Park senior bison biologists who did the

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Speaker 1: role for seventeen years of monitoring.

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Speaker 4: Can we say.

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Speaker 1: Buffalo, yes, you cool that you know? Correct?

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Speaker 4: People in the.

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Speaker 1: Parking Absolutely not who performed that role for seventeen years.

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Speaker 1: And this is where I mean Oftentimes on this show,

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Speaker 1: we like.

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Speaker 4: To explore where.

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Speaker 1: We like to explore what I will call what I

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Speaker 1: tend to call wildlife politics very cool, meaning where where

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Speaker 1: wildlife issues take on almost political tonality. Where wildlifeishes become

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Speaker 1: a partisan issue or wildlife issues become something to fight about.

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Speaker 4: Where you get billboards about wildlife.

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Speaker 1: Issues, wildlife politics. There's like wildlife management and then wildlife

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Speaker 1: management's very close cousin.

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Speaker 4: Not even that's not the right analogy.

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Speaker 8: It's it's like wildlife management is really driven by politics

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Speaker 8: and it's been that way for decades. There you go,

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Speaker 8: and conservation, on the other hand, is a little less

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Speaker 8: partisan because you see people very supportive of conservation to wildlife.

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Speaker 8: They like the idea, they like the idea of it,

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Speaker 8: they may not like the methods to get there.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I brought up on that point. I brought up a

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Speaker 1: bunch about in observations over the years, is there's not

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Speaker 1: a politician in America who would not like to be

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Speaker 1: favorably compared to Theodore Roosevelt. Absolutely absolutely, And they were

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Speaker 1: probably not aware of how controversial the actions that he

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Speaker 1: took were, and that if someone took those actions today,

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Speaker 1: they would call them a communist and they would threaten

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Speaker 1: them and they would have to have security people outside

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Speaker 1: of their home.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, uh, Roosevelt did what he did then today

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Speaker 1: and then you know, during my time trying to stand

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Speaker 1: up for a wild bison and yellowstone and allowing them

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Speaker 1: to you know, move across public land.

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Speaker 8: We talked about that often whether after particular public meetings

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Speaker 8: could we be seen going to the bar for a

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Speaker 8: beer because we were a little nervous about, you know,

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Speaker 8: the heated discussions that go on in those those debates

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Speaker 8: about what you can and can't do to preserve wild

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Speaker 8: bison on public land.

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Speaker 1: Speaking of heated discussions, you're gonna have real problem with

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Speaker 1: Chili Cool. Not only is he in trouble for what

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Speaker 1: this now, but I'm just curious. I want to set

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Speaker 1: the tone. Okay, Chili. So when you hear the Chili

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Speaker 1: and seth thank you are are and have current and

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Speaker 1: former tag holders for the Gardener hunt. Oh do you

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Speaker 1: look at them and think you sons of bitches? Or

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Speaker 1: do you think like, oh, that's cool.

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Speaker 8: You know, hunting has been a tool for wildlife management

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Speaker 8: for one hundred years.

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Speaker 4: Uh huh.

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Speaker 8: And when we debated about you know, opening up you know,

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Speaker 8: bison hunting on the North boundary, we thought that hunting

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Speaker 8: was going to be a really good thing for you know,

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Speaker 8: allowing the animals to go a little bit farther and

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Speaker 8: wider than just the park boundary.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and that.

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Speaker 8: We'd get a great deal of support by the hunters

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Speaker 8: to come out and, you know, and argue with the landowners,

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Speaker 8: argue with the state Game Agency to come up with

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Speaker 8: creative ways to manage the hunt so that they could

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Speaker 8: expand the population boundaries or the distribution of the animals,

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Speaker 8: so that there could be hunting like what I heard

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Speaker 8: you guys talk about ten minutes ago, on a larger landscape,

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Speaker 8: and it seems like it's much more like competitive hunting

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Speaker 8: to see who can be the first one to shoot

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Speaker 8: the first one that steps across the park boundary. And

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Speaker 8: the hunting that I envisioned back in two thousand and

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Speaker 8: nine when we were very supportive of hunting wild bison

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Speaker 8: never exists, never came about, understood.

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Speaker 1: So we're gonna get into that. That's the story I

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Speaker 1: wanted to do, and I don't mean to cut you off.

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Speaker 1: We got hit on a couple of quick bits of

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Speaker 1: listener feedback. But that's the story I'd like to mainly

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Speaker 1: dive into with you. Is that that that's a brand

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Speaker 1: that Grand that Grand Bargain did not it never panned

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Speaker 1: out as yet.

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Speaker 4: There, it's not Chili's fault.

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Speaker 3: On Phil's part.

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Speaker 1: Like a murder podcast we had, we had the kids

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Speaker 1: on that. We had a bunch of kids on the

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Speaker 1: show recently and we did a podcast called Our Girls

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Speaker 1: Are Here to Kick Your Ass and uh uh my

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Speaker 1: my daughter, Yanni's daughters, pottery, Pat's daughter, who else we have?

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Speaker 1: That was it for daughters? And we were laughing about

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Speaker 1: my daughter. One time we're walking to the wood squirrel hunting.

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Speaker 1: I hear behind me because she's eating a piece of

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Speaker 1: deer ship thinking it was some kind of chocolate, and

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Speaker 1: the skybrooed in. He had a hell of a time

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Speaker 1: with his kid. He said he had a kid from

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Speaker 1: twelve months to three who wouldn't stop picking up ship

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Speaker 1: to eat like they became like a specialist.

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Speaker 4: I had a dog like that.

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Speaker 1: But he said that nothing bad ever happened to the kid,

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Speaker 1: specifically for Elk, nothing bad ever happened.

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Speaker 4: So there you have it.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I keep saying, he Anna Anderson.

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Speaker 4: I guess she wrote her name now, But the kid

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Speaker 4: was the kid was a he.

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Speaker 1: The person that wrote in was his mother and he

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Speaker 1: this kid liked liver, big baby, real healthy, no nutritional deficiencies.

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Speaker 1: Weaned on wild game like liver and had a taste

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Speaker 1: for elk.

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Speaker 4: Shit.

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Speaker 1: We should have not got a job, especially the problems

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Speaker 1: we had with Max earlier. Today down here wants Max

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Speaker 1: to the job.

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Speaker 3: Around here today.

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Speaker 1: This this is a here's a really surprise I had.

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Speaker 1: This is like I kind of don't understand how this.

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Speaker 1: Maybe maybe Calmel's more about sort of like the evolution

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Speaker 1: of this, but I know Cal's reported on it that

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Speaker 1: Australia is South Okay, South Australia is just flat out

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Speaker 1: banning archery hunting, private, public whatever, like banning archery hunting.

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Speaker 1: And someone's asking the question is not so much like

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Speaker 1: what do you do about something like this? And I

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Speaker 1: have like the how the wheels of law turn in Australia,

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Speaker 1: I have zero idea, but here saying I had made

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Speaker 1: a comment one time when we were talking about the

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Speaker 1: Proposition one twenty seven in Colorado, and we were talking

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Speaker 1: to some houndsmen who would have been affected Proposition one

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Speaker 1: twenty seven, to remind folks for the eight thousandth time,

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Speaker 1: was a push from a push to ban Bobcat and

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Speaker 1: lyon hunting in Colorado. It was that that proposition was

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Speaker 1: defeated after after it was defeated. We had interviewed a

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Speaker 1: houndsman and we had asked, like, what would you really

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Speaker 1: have done if it after your whole life spent with

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Speaker 1: this discipline, what would you have really done if it

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Speaker 1: became illegal? And he said how he commented, you know,

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Speaker 1: half joking that a law like that is a good

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Speaker 1: way to make an honest man dishonest. And this person's

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Speaker 1: bringing up like, if something like this happens, what is

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Speaker 1: your take on how like, how would you react to it?

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Speaker 1: Sort of meaning would you just bowhunt anyway? Uh? Currently,

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Speaker 1: prior to this band, here's how fine tuned it was,

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Speaker 1: bow hunting was allowed on private property for non native species,

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Speaker 1: of which they have a great quantity in Australia. Non

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Speaker 1: native species rabbits, hairs, fox's goats, deer, red deer. However,

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Speaker 1: this upcoming band bowhunting will be illegal. This seems so

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Speaker 1: uh you know, I remember a move. Remember we had

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Speaker 1: that guy who's that kind of h he's kind of

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Speaker 1: a controversial figure in the if you can be controversial

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Speaker 1: in the broadhead world. He is doctor ed, Oh, doctor

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Speaker 1: ed Ashby. Do you remember when there was a country

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Speaker 1: in Africa that did not allow bow hunting and he

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Speaker 1: was doing a bunch of efficacy.

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Speaker 10: The area I think he was in was Quazulu Natal,

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Speaker 10: if that makes sense, and.

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Speaker 1: They were doing these efficacy programs to bring in bow hunting.

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Speaker 1: Right now, this is the first example I've heard of.

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Speaker 1: I'm familiar with people bringing in archery seasons. This is

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Speaker 1: the first example I've heard of eliminating bow hunting. Because

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Speaker 1: especially funny because so many people would be like, well, that's.

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Speaker 5: Ethical eliminating bow hunting for non native species on private land,

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Speaker 5: Like it was already a very narrow opportunity.

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Speaker 7: And that's right, So like the context does matter. I mean,

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Speaker 7: my perspective on this is it's just clearly another step

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Speaker 7: in eliminating hunting altogether. But you know, it's like you're like, oh, really,

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Speaker 7: the animal welfare people who always advocate for the elimination

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Speaker 7: of hunting are all of a sudden concerned about ethical hunting,

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Speaker 7: That's right. It's like, that's not really what they're concerned about.

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Speaker 7: But their argument is like, well, is hunting a wildlife

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Speaker 7: management tool. If so, let's treat it as an effective,

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Speaker 7: efficient wildlife management tool. And you're in a country where

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Speaker 7: you can hire, you know, people who professionally eradicate game

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Speaker 7: at night using all sorts of manners and means, but

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Speaker 7: you know, rifles with suppressors and taking only headshots. And

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Speaker 7: it's like, well, if you want to eliminate the game

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Speaker 7: or manage the game, do it in the most efficient

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Speaker 7: way possible. Yeah, and or the most humane way possible,

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Speaker 7: which is you know, I think we've discussed that at

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Speaker 7: a gazillion times. Just an as nine word to use

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Speaker 7: on things like this, in my opinion.

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Speaker 1: So that's the argument, is there's a like the argument

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Speaker 1: would coming from the people that want to see it

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Speaker 1: gone and be like, we agree that there's some control

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Speaker 1: that needs to occur with non natives, but we'd like

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Speaker 1: to eliminate any's sort of like sporting flavor and do

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Speaker 1: it in a more systematic, procedural fashion with trained professionals.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, And so like in this guy's example, he's like,

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Speaker 7: I have small acreage property that I have permission to hunt,

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Speaker 7: but firing a high caliber rifle would be displeasing to

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Speaker 7: the neighbors, right, and that it'd be like, we'll use

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Speaker 7: a smaller caliber rifle with subsodic ammunition and shoot him

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Speaker 7: in in the ear.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 7: Problem solved why do you need bow hunting? And the

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Speaker 7: argument would go on and on. Right.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, so hunting is also a cultural activity that people

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Speaker 8: have an opportunity to engage in in a manner that

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Speaker 8: would be similar to our ancestors. And so it's it's

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Speaker 8: kind of both a management tool for game agencies to

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Speaker 8: manage abundance and distribution, but from society's perspective, it's a

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Speaker 8: way to engage in a cultural activity that maybe your

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Speaker 8: family were descendants of the long hunters or you know

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Speaker 8: someone like.

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Speaker 4: That, so that you know it's a pride kind of

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Speaker 4: a thing.

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Speaker 1: I think that that that perspective. I've never even been

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Speaker 1: to Australia, but we get a lot of emails from Australia,

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Speaker 1: and that perspective about hunting seems to be absent from

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Speaker 1: discussions in Australia. It's like you you see a lot

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Speaker 1: of things about in Australia is at It's like issues

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Speaker 1: of a lot of the conversations are like issues of control,

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Speaker 1: controlling non natives, controlling non natives, and even like contra

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Speaker 1: virtual things like if kangaroos are shot.

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Speaker 4: You see there's I hesitate use example because there's.

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Speaker 1: Examples like this in the US, but an example like

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Speaker 1: if you're shooting kangaroos for depredation, you can you you

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Speaker 1: can't utilize any resource from the kangaroo. But we have

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Speaker 1: versions of that, meaning if you kill a bear for

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Speaker 1: getting in your garage out of season, you don't that's

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Speaker 1: not your bear, like you don't send it off to

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Speaker 1: the tax ermis it becomes the property of the state's right.

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Speaker 1: So we have you know, we have versions of that,

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Speaker 1: but that that sentiment seems to be more widespread and

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Speaker 1: more kind of leading the discussion in Australia, then perhaps

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Speaker 1: here and there's like doesn't seem to be a lot

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Speaker 1: of the hunters we hear from express a lack of

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Speaker 1: any kind of acknowledgment of the culture of hunting and

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Speaker 1: with wildlife managers and feral managers in Australia.

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Speaker 7: But so that we should answer the question like what

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Speaker 7: because it's kind of an advocacy question, right, It's like,

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Speaker 7: how do you stick up for yourself if you want

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Speaker 7: to maintain bow hunting in the state or region that

365
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Speaker 7: they're in. One super interesting case is the waterfowl Like

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Speaker 7: maintaining a waterfowl season was recently under attack in Australia,

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Speaker 7: and there weren't just on paper, there were not enough

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Speaker 7: waterfowl hunters to really effectively advocate for themselves.

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Speaker 11: Right.

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Speaker 7: It's like what we talk about here in America is

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Speaker 7: like what we need to maintain healthy hunter populations if

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Speaker 7: we're going to maintain hunting, because if we dip below

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Speaker 7: a certain set of percentage points, like it's just not

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Speaker 7: going to be valuable enough to listen to hunters in

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Speaker 7: a political sense. And in Australia they were in a

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Speaker 7: very real sense going to lose their their ability to

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Speaker 7: waterfowl hunt, and they were able to. And again, hunters

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Speaker 7: firearm owners were not a large enough political group on

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Speaker 7: their own to effectively advocate for themselves, but they were

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Speaker 7: able to get support from the labor unions and trade

381
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Speaker 7: unions because a large percentage of the labor and trade

382
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Speaker 7: folks were younger, disposable income, liked to go out and

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Speaker 7: do stuff outside.

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Speaker 4: Oh, so they found representation from.

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Speaker 7: From a broad, big enough political group where people were like, oh, wait,

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Speaker 7: all the electricians and plumbers and those guys.

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Speaker 1: There aren't many, but a lot of them are here.

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Speaker 1: There aren't many, but I'm friends with a lot of them. Yeah,

389
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Speaker 1: I remember that was one of the first times I

390
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Speaker 1: had really seen it artier or not. That in the

391
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Speaker 1: state of Washington was one of the first times I've

392
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Speaker 1: seen the lack of participation get weaponized. And it was

393
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Speaker 1: around some trapping bands and they were just making a

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Speaker 1: lot of noise about well, look, how few people do it,

395
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Speaker 1: you know? And I'd never seen someone like actually use

396
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Speaker 1: that as the argument to not be able to do it,

397
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Speaker 1: meaning no one's really doing it, so.

398
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Speaker 4: Why should you be allowed to do it?

399
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Speaker 1: It feels that important people would be doing it, and

400
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:37,479
Speaker 1: be like, so you'd be more comfortable with it if

401
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:43,760
Speaker 1: there's a lot of few. H Here's a story out

402
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 1: of Mississippi. This one's This one's interesting because you see

403
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:49,119
Speaker 1: this so many times in different ways. I remember they

404
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,680
Speaker 1: did has to do with mislabeling fish and restaurants, and

405
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:54,760
Speaker 1: I remember some years ago, quite a few years ago,

406
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:56,679
Speaker 1: this piece came out that they went and they went

407
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Speaker 1: and sampled red snapper, some organizations sampled red snapper and

408
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,280
Speaker 1: it was I'm not exaggerating, I think it was seventy

409
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 1: eight percent of red snapper was at red Snapper because

410
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:08,720
Speaker 1: it's mangrove snapper, it's I don't know, name a bunch

411
00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:09,240
Speaker 1: of snappers.

412
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 3: Uh Couberra, that's a cool one.

413
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:12,800
Speaker 4: I'm sure like.

414
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:17,160
Speaker 1: A bunch of snappers non red snappers, you can't tell

415
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:19,200
Speaker 1: them apart. I mean, like, like I'm saying, if I

416
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:21,920
Speaker 1: made you like a fried up some snapper and I

417
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:29,639
Speaker 1: had a blue line, a mangrove, a mutton right on

418
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:33,680
Speaker 1: down the line, and a red snapper, and I said, like, okay,

419
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:38,680
Speaker 1: sort them all out by taste. That's a tough task

420
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Speaker 1: to do. So I think that all these different snappers

421
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,320
Speaker 1: in the marketplace, at some point someone was just being like, yeah,

422
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 1: it's red, red snapper. It's all red snapper. Here's an

423
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 1: egregious example of mislabeling. And this ain't even close. Mary

424
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Speaker 1: Mahoney's old French House in Biloxi, Mississippi, been in businesses

425
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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty two, in a building that dates to seventeen

426
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Speaker 1: thirty seven, was passing off to Lapia as a grouper.

427
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Speaker 12: Come on, that's dear shit. As dear me, I've eaten

428
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Speaker 12: a lot of to Lapia.

429
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Speaker 1: Not a lot. I've eaten enough to know a group

430
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Speaker 1: of uh five years of probation in order to pay

431
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Speaker 1: one point five million dollars in fines.

432
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Speaker 10: They got locked, so that's deserving geez.

433
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:41,600
Speaker 1: So what they came after they okay, they had a

434
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,399
Speaker 1: criminal fine of what makes sense, So you go like, well,

435
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,680
Speaker 1: how do you arrive at that number? A criminal fine

436
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:49,639
Speaker 1: of only one hundred not only a criminal fine of

437
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:53,960
Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty thousand bucks. But uh, what they

438
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 1: came after him about is, like I guess, like a

439
00:25:55,880 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 1: cost discrepancy thing, a four fish of forfeiture.

440
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 4: That's a hard word to say, for dynamic.

441
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 1: For forfeiture of one point three million dollars for fraudulent sale,

442
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,680
Speaker 1: so not even fine, but basically saying you have been

443
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 1: bilking people out of yeah, you know, buying this for

444
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:18,960
Speaker 1: like seventy cents a pound, or the hell tilep he

445
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:20,920
Speaker 1: goes for when buying groupers.

446
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,400
Speaker 4: Probably, I'm guessing. Yeah.

447
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:25,080
Speaker 7: So I wonder if on the menu, you know, it

448
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 7: said like market price, you know how those restaurants do that.

449
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 5: I'm really curious how this got started, if it was

450
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:36,959
Speaker 5: a disgruntled employee or a patron with a really refined palate.

451
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 1: It's just like, I don't want to get anybody in

452
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 1: trouble one time. We're in a very remote Alaska town

453
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 1: that is not on the road system, and we're stuck

454
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:50,639
Speaker 1: at an airstrip and there's like a little place you

455
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 1: could stay and eat there and like a lot of knights,

456
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:56,160
Speaker 1: they don't have any customers. And I remember he had

457
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 1: a chicken el fredo. He's like, I have chicken el fredo,

458
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 1: and we all sat down here to eat that ain't chicken.

459
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 1: Like I've eaten enough spruce grouse. Spruce grouse one, but

460
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 1: I appreciated that.

461
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 7: We just right before flying out of Wichita, Kansas. UH

462
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:21,479
Speaker 7: two days ago, well, Peter Koon and I were at

463
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 7: a restaurant and Mexican restaurant and they had skirt steak

464
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 7: on the menu. I was like, skirt steak awesome. And

465
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 7: the guy's like, how do you want that cooked? And

466
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 7: I was like, well, there's only one way to cook

467
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 7: a diaphragm. And he's like, medium rare is how most

468
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:43,879
Speaker 7: people get it. And I was like, well that's I'm like,

469
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 7: what cut is it? And he's like, well it comes

470
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 7: back here off the end of the I'm like, oh,

471
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 7: that's a flank steak. I'm like, okay, sounds good.

472
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 1: So a little more cold around this six they did

473
00:27:56,080 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 1: it for six years. They sold fifty eight thousand and

474
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 1: seven and fifty pounds of tilapia imported from Africa, India

475
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 1: and South America at what they're calling premium at premium prices. Jeez,

476
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:20,359
Speaker 1: there's another article I was going to get into, but

477
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 1: I'm not going to get into it. But long and

478
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 1: short of it is, it's out of India, northern India,

479
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 1: so from the from from far away, not Indiana. For

480
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 1: you people that just heard Indiana India wildlife, this is

481
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:36,720
Speaker 1: a thorny one and you could picture this pissing people

482
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 1: off in America. Wildlife researchers in India who are looking

483
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 1: at relations with like Asian elephants, asiatic tigers, Is there

484
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 1: any other kind of tiger? Tigers have trail cams out

485
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 1: and part of the purpose of the trail cams is

486
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 1: to see how their women do a lot of gathering

487
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 1: in this community. In India, women spend a lot of

488
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,959
Speaker 1: time gathering natural resources in the wild. So the camera

489
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 1: program is meant to monitor not just predator prey relations,

490
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 1: but to monitor how area women use resources. And the

491
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 1: women are very intimidated and don't like it and have

492
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 1: changed changed a lot of their habits, Like they traditionally

493
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 1: sing while they're gathering resources because there's a risk of

494
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 1: predation from tigers. They traditionally sing, But women reporting that

495
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 1: they don't feel comfortable doing that now because they have

496
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:40,720
Speaker 1: to be out doing their resource extraction on camera. And

497
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 1: it's changed their it's changed their desire to be out,

498
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 1: it's changed. It's impacted how long they liked to be

499
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 1: in the woods, what they do in the woods. And

500
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 1: they're reporting that, like the surveillance, and they're like, well,

501
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 1: it's important for us to understand how people utilize the resources.

502
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 1: Picture in the US, if they said, we're gonna we

503
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 1: want it. We're curious how hundreds what hunters are doing.

504
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 1: So we're gonna go and put out tons of trail

505
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 1: cameras to watch how hunters are going about their business.

506
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 7: Well, I mean that's already changed a lot of I'm

507
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 7: always looking for cameras. There's so many stinking cameras around

508
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 7: these days.

509
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 1: Yeah. I sneak around. I always catch them and I

510
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 1: like go round back.

511
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 10: You know, I probably pete in front of trail.

512
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 3: Yeah I did that a couple of weeks ago. Article

513
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 3: pointed right at me.

514
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's part of this article and they put it

515
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 1: up online. They caught a woman. They caught one of

516
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 1: these women pee in the woods, and it wound up

517
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 1: on What's happening? Oh no, yeah, and humiliated. Yeah.

518
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 7: When we were hunting Phelps and I and Rick Smith

519
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 7: and and Max. When we're filming in Washington last year,

520
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 7: we all stopped and you know how, one guy starts

521
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 7: PM and everyone I've good time to pee. Two and

522
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 7: look around and yeah, trail camera right there got all

523
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 7: of us. I don't think that's why I'm next calendar.

524
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 3: We're on a meet or shoot one time, I think

525
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 3: it was Florida, and I get a message on Instagram.

526
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 3: I see you guys are hunting you know area?

527
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, he he because he had a cellular camera and

528
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 1: I recognized this. He just yeah message.

529
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 3: I don't. I don't think you put it online. Well

530
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 3: maybe he did.

531
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 7: But if I could just add, like a blanket regulation

532
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 7: there was any sort of remote roadless wilderness designation, all

533
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 7: of that come hunting season would just get up like

534
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 7: a blanket dropped over the top of it was zero

535
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 7: cell phone reception for hunting season.

536
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I saw it there. Trying to take a bunch

537
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 1: of federal money recently.

538
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 4: You'll appreciate this.

539
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 1: Are our guests here to increase cell phone service to

540
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:55,959
Speaker 1: national parks whatever?

541
00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 3: I believe on that right, That.

542
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 8: Means you're getting a different kind of visitor to national parks,

543
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 8: and the kind of wants to build exactly. They kind

544
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 8: of doesn't really want to go there for the resources.

545
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 8: They want to be able to take pictures and send

546
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 8: them to someone to say, look where I'm at. I'm

547
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 8: at this location and I found this animal. Things of

548
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 8: that nature. God, I mean they've been doing foolish things

549
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 8: like that for a decade or more, trying to get

550
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 8: as close as they could to the elk with the

551
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 8: large antler and do the selfie and then they get

552
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 8: budded in the rear from the antler.

553
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 4: Kind of a thing. So what drew you to working

554
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:32,640
Speaker 4: at the park?

555
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 11: Like?

556
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 1: What was your professional path to land to land at

557
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 1: Yelso National Park.

558
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 4: Oh, you know, that's a very good question.

559
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 8: I should have thought about that and knew you might

560
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:45,760
Speaker 8: ask that, But I think it was more just fate

561
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,960
Speaker 8: than anything else. I grew up in Colorado and moved

562
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 8: to Jackson Hole in the early nineteen eighties to be

563
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 8: a trail hand on the trail crew because I'd love

564
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 8: to be out in the wilderness. And I started to

565
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 8: see that my undergraduate degree in biology wasn't quite enough

566
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 8: and I needed to find a way to go to

567
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 8: graduate school. And I picked U of M and Montana

568
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 8: State to look for graduate school projects. And I landed

569
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 8: here at MSU studying harlequin ducks.

570
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 1: Oh really, I did.

571
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 4: I did.

572
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 8: It was a beautiful project. My professor wanted me to

573
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 8: study rabbits at the National Engineering Lab in Idaho, and

574
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 8: he said, no, I'm going to do my own project.

575
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 8: I'm going to make this as hard as possible, and

576
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 8: I'm going.

577
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 4: To do something cool in the wilderness. And he helped

578
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 4: me raise money.

579
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 8: And I just fell in love with the National Parks

580
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 8: by you know, as a trail hand, and then decided

581
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 8: that ecology was sort of my calling because I loved nature,

582
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 8: and I went to graduate school and fishing wilife management here.

583
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 8: My first job was back at Grant Teeton as a

584
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 8: biologist at Grant Teeton, and I did a big circle

585
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 8: around the National Parks and ended up back in Yellowstone

586
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 8: and it was I think it was fate as well.

587
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 8: I came to do a backpack trip from the south

588
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,800
Speaker 8: end of Yellowstone Lake to the Buffalo Valley and Togi Pass,

589
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:14,320
Speaker 8: Big Wilderness, the most remote places in the country. And

590
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:16,840
Speaker 8: I stumbled into a friend of mine that told me

591
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 8: pretty soon we're going to be hiring a biologist to

592
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 8: do bison work around here. You should apply, And so

593
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 8: I kept in touch and applied, and by golly, I

594
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 8: got the job. So I knew what I was getting

595
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:33,000
Speaker 8: into because bison hot. I knew it would be hot

596
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:35,880
Speaker 8: because as a graduate student here in the mid eighties,

597
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 8: there was animals starting to leave the park. They were

598
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 8: being harvested by fish Wiliff and Parks, auctioned off at

599
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 8: the Fish wilf And Park's regional office.

600
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 4: Around here.

601
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 8: It was big business, big news all over the place,

602
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 8: and so I've been I followed it in newspapers most

603
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 8: of my career, and I thought, oh, you know, I

604
00:34:58,160 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 8: want to be somewhere.

605
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 4: Where biology is interesting.

606
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 8: And the boy, did I fall into an interesting spot

607
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 8: at Yellowstone trying to conserve wild bison.

608
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 1: Yeah. So can you give a real high can you

609
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 1: give a real high level snapshot being as fair as

610
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 1: possible to all interested parties of sort of the the

611
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 1: landscape around the wild bison conversations that are happening in

612
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:31,840
Speaker 1: the West and how the part fits into that.

613
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 8: So I've heard stories from everybody, and I think even

614
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 8: on this podcast in the past, once upon a time,

615
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 8: wild bison, you know, across you know, America, and there

616
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:51,719
Speaker 8: was a military strategy to conquer the West, and the

617
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 8: military strategy was to eliminate bison and that would be

618
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 8: our way to battle that all of the various native

619
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 8: cultures that lived all over the West. And it was successful,

620
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:07,360
Speaker 8: and the thirty million wild bison that was three hundred

621
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 8: years ago became a couple dozen animals at Yellowstone and

622
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:14,279
Speaker 8: maybe one hundred or two hundred up in the far

623
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 8: north of Canada. Before you know, someone decided to try

624
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 8: and turn it all around. And at Yellowstone it was

625
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 8: the Army, because the Army ran Yellowstone at the turn

626
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 8: of the last century. So the army hired a bison

627
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 8: tender and he just happened to be one of the

628
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 8: five ranchers around the West that went out and gathered.

629
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:41,279
Speaker 1: A few calves, and was that Buffalo Jones.

630
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 8: Buffalo Jones yep. So Buffalo Jones came to Yellowstone and

631
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:51,720
Speaker 8: started restoring the population, and they got a small group

632
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 8: of animals from Texas. I think it was three bulls

633
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 8: from Colonel Goodnight, and then he had some connections up

634
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 8: on the Flathead got eighteen females from the Flathead Valley

635
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 8: and they're from the population that's now the National Bison

636
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 8: Range in that area of the state. And there was

637
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:14,959
Speaker 8: twenty one animals brought to Mammoth sort of a display herd.

638
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:16,120
Speaker 4: They reproduced.

639
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:19,360
Speaker 8: Well, there was the couple a dozen animals in the

640
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:24,320
Speaker 8: interior of Yellowstone, and this whole restoration project, you know,

641
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 8: got on the board by Congress saying, you know, we

642
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 8: got to save wild bison. We can't just let them,

643
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:36,759
Speaker 8: you know, go extinct. And conservation of bison was part

644
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:41,239
Speaker 8: of the enabling legislation of Yellowstone conservation of most of

645
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 8: the wildlife as well, because it was all being hunted

646
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:49,839
Speaker 8: out and I don't think anyone ever dreamed that they

647
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 8: would recover to the level that they have. And in

648
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 8: the nineteen forties, Yellowstone had an abundance of ison, well

649
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:00,080
Speaker 8: at that point in time, an abundance of ice, and

650
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 8: was a thousand of them. So they were seeing that

651
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 8: in order to make this conservation of this animal on

652
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 8: a broader scale. They started giving away bison to farmers

653
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:16,759
Speaker 8: and ranchers and preserves all over the place, and the

654
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:20,880
Speaker 8: conservation of wild bison kind of went down a different

655
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,360
Speaker 8: path than elk and deer and sheep, because as we

656
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 8: took animals from Yellowstone, like we took deer and sheep

657
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:30,880
Speaker 8: and program from Yellowstone, spread them all over the country,

658
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:32,840
Speaker 8: but we didn't put them in fences.

659
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:35,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, they all got moved as wild ass.

660
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:38,600
Speaker 8: Wild animals, free roaming for as far and let the

661
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 8: animals make the decision on you know, where they want

662
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:45,280
Speaker 8: to migrate to who lives because they make good decisions,

663
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 8: all of that kind of stuff. But for some reason,

664
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 8: the country decided that in order to save wild bison,

665
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 8: they all had to be within fences. So I think

666
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 8: the bottom line is humans forgot how to live with

667
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 8: wild bison and forgot how to respect the nature of

668
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:08,239
Speaker 8: wild bison on the landscape, and it was easy to

669
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:11,200
Speaker 8: just put them in fences. So for a hundred years

670
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:15,600
Speaker 8: now we've been saving wild bison from the Great Plains,

671
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:17,880
Speaker 8: even as far east as.

672
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:18,400
Speaker 4: The East Coast.

673
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 8: There's preserves in Pennsylvania and Virginia in places like that, But.

674
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,280
Speaker 1: Let let's narrow in on that okay question for a second,

675
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:28,080
Speaker 1: because this is something I don't know the answer to this.

676
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 1: This is something that baffles me, and it would be

677
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 1: I think it'd be a great project for a really

678
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 1: like a great project for a serious historian, like like

679
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 1: I get it in a broad sense, but I'll lay

680
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 1: out the question be like, we recovered grizzly bears as

681
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 1: a wild animal. Yep, we recovered bighorn sheep as a

682
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:52,400
Speaker 1: wild animal. We recovered elk as a wild animal. I'll

683
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 1: point out there were no elk in New Mexico. That's right, right,

684
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 1: there was a time when there was zero elk in

685
00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:59,919
Speaker 1: New Mexico. Yep, right, we recover elk as a wild

686
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:04,759
Speaker 1: old animal. Wolves get recovered as a wild animal. I

687
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:10,719
Speaker 1: would love like to really know the discussions and decisions

688
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 1: were made. How did they arrive at? Like everything this

689
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:20,720
Speaker 1: like great Noah's arc of creatures will all be politically wild,

690
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:22,719
Speaker 1: except you.

691
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 4: I don't have an answer for that either.

692
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:29,000
Speaker 1: I mean, I think, like the.

693
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 5: I don't I couldn't find this in a document. But

694
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 5: I think the answer that most people would arrive at

695
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:44,720
Speaker 5: is that the ecological niche of the Buffalo was filled

696
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:47,879
Speaker 5: in by cattle, right, I mean, at the same time

697
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 5: that the planes are being emptied of buffalo, cattle are

698
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 5: coming in. And I can't really think like obviously domestic

699
00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:03,640
Speaker 5: sheep and wild sheep share share a same niche I guess.

700
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 5: I wonder if it's a question of the power of

701
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:07,920
Speaker 5: the lobby, but like that would be my guess is

702
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:16,840
Speaker 5: the ranching industry would have not particularly appreciated releasing giant

703
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:19,400
Speaker 5: bovine great editors.

704
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it even but you're I

705
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:27,439
Speaker 1: guess it's a gut Yeah, I think that that's that's

706
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:29,279
Speaker 1: a huge part of it. But even if you look

707
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:36,160
Speaker 1: at like isolated inner mountain valleys that aren't even great

708
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:39,880
Speaker 1: cattle country, and at the time, probably my guess is

709
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 1: there was not a big cattle presence, for instance, in

710
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 1: the Upper Yellowstone Valley. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong,

711
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:46,359
Speaker 1: early nineteen hundreds, was there a big cattle presence.

712
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:49,319
Speaker 4: In the Upper Yellowstone? I think? OK, yeah, I mean

713
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:50,760
Speaker 4: in the Paradise Valley.

714
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:55,880
Speaker 5: Definitely, Nelson's story brought cattle in there, like in the eighteen.

715
00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 4: Eighteen seventy.

716
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:01,040
Speaker 1: Yeah. I was going to point out and you already

717
00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:03,600
Speaker 1: shot down my you know, shot down part. I was

718
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:08,720
Speaker 1: gonna point out that like that that even in areas

719
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 1: where that that conflict wouldn't have been is acute. But

720
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:15,880
Speaker 1: you're right if people were, if people were running cattle

721
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 1: by that by at the time when we had them

722
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 1: all bottled up. You know, I've even I've even mentioned

723
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:24,399
Speaker 1: before that like there was a moment when we knew

724
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,400
Speaker 1: where they all were, right, that's right, somewhere between like

725
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:31,280
Speaker 1: eighteen eighty two, between eighteen eighty two and nineteen whatever,

726
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:34,360
Speaker 1: there was a moment when someone could say, like, I

727
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 1: know where they're all at. Yep, I know where everyone is.

728
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 1: And in that instant, we became really comfortable with them

729
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:44,439
Speaker 1: as something that we know where they're all at.

730
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 4: That's exactly right.

731
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:47,839
Speaker 1: And since then we don't have any that we don't

732
00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:48,520
Speaker 1: know where they're at.

733
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:51,480
Speaker 4: And I think, I mean, I.

734
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:57,080
Speaker 7: Look at Arkansas, Missouri, Tennessee, all of them have elk hunts,

735
00:42:57,200 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 7: right O. REMEF has put elk out there, and all

736
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 7: all of those states have a geographical area where if

737
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:07,640
Speaker 7: those elks step out of that geographical area, it's an

738
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 7: over the counter thing for landowners. Oh I didn't know that, Yeah,

739
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:14,880
Speaker 7: because there was an agreement made based on agriculture, this

740
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:16,359
Speaker 7: is where the elk are going to be, and we're

741
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 7: all okay with that?

742
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:18,319
Speaker 8: Is that true? Oh?

743
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 4: I don't know. I mean I do.

744
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:23,399
Speaker 5: I do agree with you that I have not seen

745
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:28,400
Speaker 5: like a history of the debates, like the actual Like

746
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 5: I would love to read letters and debates within agencies

747
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:38,239
Speaker 5: about how it was that bison became.

748
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:42,840
Speaker 1: Not wild or unwilded, recovered, but not.

749
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:46,880
Speaker 8: I know, there's some congressional record that would be valuable

750
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:49,400
Speaker 8: to get a hold of in the late eighteen hundreds,

751
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 8: because that was part of George Catlin's perspective that we

752
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:56,399
Speaker 8: needed to save, you know, some great national park where

753
00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 8: we could save, you know, all these wildlife species that

754
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:02,160
Speaker 8: were be hunted for assistance at that point in time.

755
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 1: Go ahead and continue your story. I just wanted to

756
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:08,360
Speaker 1: ask a little about that, because that's the thing, like

757
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:12,040
Speaker 1: of all the interesting parts of what you're telling us,

758
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 1: like that decision that we as a culture, as a

759
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 1: society made.

760
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:19,360
Speaker 4: Yes, it's never been adequately explained to me, and I

761
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 4: don't think it ever could be.

762
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:23,399
Speaker 8: And I think competition for grass is probably a key

763
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 8: component of it, and that there's been a probably an

764
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:33,279
Speaker 8: unrealistic perspective that you could restore thirty million again and

765
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 8: still have the same level of you know, human occupancy

766
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:39,280
Speaker 8: on the landscape. But there's no reason that you couldn't

767
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:42,879
Speaker 8: at least restore a couple of populations. Like cal pointed out,

768
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:45,000
Speaker 8: you know, we've done it with elk in a few

769
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 8: places where they disappeared many years ago. And in fact,

770
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:53,400
Speaker 8: there was a hunting club in Utah and early nineteen

771
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:56,839
Speaker 8: forties that got a group bison from Yellowstone and took

772
00:44:56,920 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 8: them to the Henry Mountains of Utah, turned them loose,

773
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 8: and they wanted to have a wild population. And I'm

774
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 8: sure they felt like, well, you know, this is a

775
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:08,600
Speaker 8: remote location, they'll probably just stay here. And I think

776
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:11,120
Speaker 8: the first thing they did is, you know, move fifty

777
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:15,320
Speaker 8: or sixty miles, all right, so they have a new location.

778
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 8: But Utah's figured out how to do it, you know,

779
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:22,520
Speaker 8: and it's not been easy, you know, there's been a

780
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:26,600
Speaker 8: lot of conflict with the local ranchers, but they've learned

781
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:28,840
Speaker 8: how to do it. And they have a very sporting

782
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:33,760
Speaker 8: bison l hunt for managing abundance and distribution, and bison

783
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:37,040
Speaker 8: really are sort of an indicator of where the most

784
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 8: productive habitats are in that area.

785
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:41,480
Speaker 4: With that they occupy, I.

786
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:42,200
Speaker 1: Mean they'll find it.

787
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:46,920
Speaker 8: They'll find it. Yeah, they'll definitely find it. So I

788
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:49,960
Speaker 8: think that you could do that in a few other places,

789
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:54,239
Speaker 8: but you'll never be able to have because of the

790
00:45:55,000 --> 00:46:01,160
Speaker 8: ecology of wild bison. They do compete with habitat, with cattle,

791
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:05,879
Speaker 8: with humans, with agriculture. And in order to do our

792
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:09,759
Speaker 8: national mammal right, you know, it would be valuable to

793
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:13,680
Speaker 8: do just like what you described, designate an area that's

794
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:18,440
Speaker 8: legitimate for wild bison to distribute around the greater Yellowstone

795
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 8: Area and allow the culture of you know, tribal hunting

796
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:27,400
Speaker 8: and you know, subsistence hunting by the rest of us.

797
00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 8: You know that like to go out and do something

798
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 8: that our ancestors did. But I really think that the

799
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:41,120
Speaker 8: states of Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming felt like they had

800
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:44,279
Speaker 8: their eye on the Yellowstone Restoration and wild bison from

801
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:49,479
Speaker 8: the very beginning and have always assumed that they would

802
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:52,680
Speaker 8: just be kept within the national park, just like we've

803
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:55,960
Speaker 8: done at all other national parks where wild bison are.

804
00:46:56,360 --> 00:47:00,640
Speaker 8: But all those other national parks have fences, so wind

805
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:04,560
Speaker 8: Cave bad Lands, all those places have fences for keeping

806
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:07,440
Speaker 8: their buce Teddy. Roosevelt has fences around it.

807
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:11,719
Speaker 1: So at Yellowstone, those parks have taken the responsibility of

808
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:17,520
Speaker 1: fencing those creatures in well, that depends on whose responsibility is.

809
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 8: I don't know whether those are fence out or fence

810
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:24,480
Speaker 8: in states. You know, in Montana it's a fence out,

811
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:27,239
Speaker 8: and if you don't want the wildlife or you don't

812
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:30,480
Speaker 8: want your neighbor's cattle on your property, you're supposed to

813
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:33,520
Speaker 8: fence your own property to keep that kind of stuff

814
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:38,120
Speaker 8: off of it. So Yellowstones one of the few National

815
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:40,920
Speaker 8: parks that's large enough in the lower forty eight states

816
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:44,960
Speaker 8: that can allow ecology to play its.

817
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:45,960
Speaker 4: Role on the landscape.

818
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:52,640
Speaker 8: And we don't prohibit bighorn sheep from staying in the

819
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:56,040
Speaker 8: national park, and we don't prohibit elk or deer or

820
00:47:56,520 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 8: pronghorn or any of the other you know, native species

821
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:05,160
Speaker 8: from leaving the national park. But we do have you know,

822
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:08,080
Speaker 8: laws in Montana that say as soon as they leave

823
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:11,239
Speaker 8: the national park. It's an agriculture department that manages wild

824
00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:19,320
Speaker 8: bison on Montana lands. So that was done primarily because

825
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:23,120
Speaker 8: of a cattle disease that was brought to the area

826
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:29,040
Speaker 8: a bacteria that you know, affects the reproductive track of mammal,

827
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 8: large mammals, brucellosis, And.

828
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:33,880
Speaker 4: That's kind of been the.

829
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:40,359
Speaker 8: Arguing point as to why bison can't be restored as

830
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 8: wildlife like the other animals.

831
00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:44,840
Speaker 4: And I think that it was.

832
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 8: I mean, it was somewhat legitimate because initially the farmers

833
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:55,200
Speaker 8: and ranchers, you know, they want to make a profit,

834
00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:58,200
Speaker 8: and so if you're in business for yourself and you

835
00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:01,080
Speaker 8: want to make a profit, you don't want things to

836
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:04,880
Speaker 8: come to your ranch that would cause mortality, you know,

837
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:07,040
Speaker 8: to your your profit making machine.

838
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:11,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, if I'm not mistaken, it causes hafers to abort pregnant.

839
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:14,759
Speaker 1: They'll aboard their first uh, they'll abort their first calf.

840
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:17,920
Speaker 8: Right. It's yeah, by and large, that's what it is.

841
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:20,840
Speaker 8: It's a little more complicated than that, but you know,

842
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:22,160
Speaker 8: it's not every one of them.

843
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:23,200
Speaker 4: But then there's a.

844
00:49:23,239 --> 00:49:27,040
Speaker 8: Few that just never recover from the disease. But by

845
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:33,640
Speaker 8: and large, animal gets infected, gets pregnant, aborts pregnancy, gets.

846
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:34,560
Speaker 4: Immune to the disease.

847
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:39,399
Speaker 8: Any other future pregnancy, they're gonna have their calf.

848
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:40,760
Speaker 4: It's gonna be fine.

849
00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 8: But a farmer is gonna you know, that's a that's

850
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:45,800
Speaker 8: money in the bank for him if he loses.

851
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:48,360
Speaker 7: A couple of years ago, I did right along with

852
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:52,040
Speaker 7: Montana Fish and Parks. And it was during the most

853
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:56,839
Speaker 7: successful buy some harvest hunting season two years ago.

854
00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 3: And there is nothing right. Yeah, So.

855
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:05,520
Speaker 7: If you go by the numbers, it was like an

856
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:07,440
Speaker 7: unbelievable amount of iis and taken out.

857
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:08,920
Speaker 1: Buffalo killed.

858
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:15,080
Speaker 7: Comparatively, but it was still an over you know, Buffalo

859
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 7: remained over an objective for like that carrying capacity number

860
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:19,279
Speaker 7: that was agreed to.

861
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:27,040
Speaker 8: Yeah, the social carrying capacity was a court negotiated number

862
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:30,960
Speaker 8: in a court case between nineteen ninety five and two thousand.

863
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:35,719
Speaker 7: And there's like a starting line and a finish line

864
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:39,080
Speaker 7: on that gardener zone and at the finish line, so

865
00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:41,560
Speaker 7: the starting line would be the park boundary.

866
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:44,480
Speaker 1: Yep, you're paying attention to chili, oh yeah.

867
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:50,560
Speaker 7: And the finish line is the end of the negotiated

868
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:54,640
Speaker 7: outside of the park bison range.

869
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:57,200
Speaker 8: Right right, and state calls it a tolerance zone, the

870
00:50:57,280 --> 00:50:59,439
Speaker 8: taller people call it a conservation area.

871
00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:04,600
Speaker 7: And at the finish line was and this is something

872
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:07,719
Speaker 7: I had never heard or seen before, but at the

873
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:12,759
Speaker 7: finish line. Was the state brand inspector what? Yeah, and

874
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:15,920
Speaker 7: his job is to be the guy on the finish

875
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:21,080
Speaker 7: line and make sure no no bison crossed the tolerance zone.

876
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:25,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, which I was just like I was he having

877
00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:25,719
Speaker 1: any action?

878
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:27,480
Speaker 3: I think he was.

879
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:30,080
Speaker 7: He's a pretty hands on participant down there as far

880
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:33,759
Speaker 7: as like, you know, he's he's rounding up people and

881
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:37,440
Speaker 7: making sure that they know where the buffalo are.

882
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:41,520
Speaker 1: But was he getting that year? Was he getting stuff

883
00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:42,759
Speaker 1: that was making it through the zone?

884
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:43,200
Speaker 12: You know?

885
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:44,879
Speaker 7: I didn't get a talk with him.

886
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:50,160
Speaker 8: I believe a few animals went beyond that line in

887
00:51:50,239 --> 00:51:52,800
Speaker 8: the sand, if you will, but not many. There's so

888
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:56,400
Speaker 8: many hunters now, and I would say that the state

889
00:51:56,560 --> 00:52:00,279
Speaker 8: offers like forty four permits or something like that. I

890
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:06,560
Speaker 8: haven't checked lately, but forty okay, somewhere in that neighborhood.

891
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:09,840
Speaker 8: But the trib is much much larger. Yeah, the tribal

892
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:12,680
Speaker 8: numbers are much much larger. There's no limit really. Each

893
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:15,480
Speaker 8: tribe issues a tag to anyone that wants won, and

894
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:19,160
Speaker 8: some tribes issue four or five tags to various families

895
00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:20,920
Speaker 8: if they want to gather multiple bisons.

896
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:25,600
Speaker 7: Yeah, because they can still provide meat for uh, for everybody.

897
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:27,680
Speaker 4: Absolutely, yeah, for the whole family.

898
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:32,359
Speaker 1: Let's hit on this brucelloss thing for a little bit

899
00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:36,600
Speaker 1: because there's a lot of questions about this that that

900
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:40,400
Speaker 1: I have. I've heard other's voice, guys like me who

901
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:45,160
Speaker 1: are buffalo advocates and who would like to see a

902
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:53,359
Speaker 1: much bigger tolerance zone. Okay, uh, a bigger tolerance zone

903
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:54,080
Speaker 1: and more of them.

904
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:56,600
Speaker 4: Okay, A lot of people would like to see that.

905
00:52:57,160 --> 00:53:00,360
Speaker 1: Now, I will say to people, don't get me the

906
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:05,520
Speaker 1: whole brucellosis thing, because elkev brucellosis. You nailed it, So, okay,

907
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:08,879
Speaker 1: did I nail it? Is there something I'm not seeing?

908
00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:10,480
Speaker 4: Can you speak to this for a minute? I can't

909
00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:12,600
Speaker 4: speak to that. That's a really good question for So.

910
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:17,120
Speaker 8: In nineteen ninety five, when governor of Montana sued the

911
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:21,280
Speaker 8: federal agencies to not let any bison leave the National

912
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:26,439
Speaker 8: Park because some were infected with brucellosis, the assumptions were

913
00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:29,640
Speaker 8: because we didn't have good science on it. All, the

914
00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:35,239
Speaker 8: assumptions were that bison were the primary vector for infecting

915
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:39,640
Speaker 8: the system, and that elk were infected because buffalo were

916
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:44,359
Speaker 8: infecting the elk, and if we could eliminate brucellosis from

917
00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:50,960
Speaker 8: the buffalo population that lived in Yellowstone. Brucellosis would just disappear.

918
00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:51,000
Speaker 4: In the elk.

919
00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:54,320
Speaker 8: They were the super spreaders, exactly, the super spreaders exactly,

920
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:55,320
Speaker 8: that's a good term for it.

921
00:53:55,680 --> 00:53:59,759
Speaker 4: They were the Gavin Newsom's of sure.

922
00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:03,919
Speaker 8: Sure anyway, you know, that was the assumption of the time,

923
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:08,400
Speaker 8: and it was a bad assumption, you know, to begin with.

924
00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:11,560
Speaker 8: And the Park Service argued with the US Department of

925
00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:14,160
Speaker 8: Agriculture about that assumption.

926
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:17,560
Speaker 4: Because in Jackson, holl.

927
00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:19,560
Speaker 1: Can you give the background on that assumption, like how

928
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:19,800
Speaker 1: is that?

929
00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:23,480
Speaker 4: Like how has that arrived at? I don't know.

930
00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:27,640
Speaker 8: I can only suspect, and I suspect that it had

931
00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:31,560
Speaker 8: to do with, you know, like a capitalistic perspective that

932
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:34,960
Speaker 8: you know, buffalo compete with our cattle, and we got

933
00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:36,959
Speaker 8: to get rid of buffalo. So we got to find

934
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:40,640
Speaker 8: some sort of legal way to show that, you know,

935
00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:43,600
Speaker 8: we have backing to get rid of it. And an

936
00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:48,400
Speaker 8: analogy is that the people that really argue to preserve

937
00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:51,800
Speaker 8: wilderness use the Wilderness Act, you know, things like that

938
00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:54,759
Speaker 8: they and they use the Endangered Species Act, you know,

939
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:58,080
Speaker 8: as a sort of a political tool to try and

940
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:00,719
Speaker 8: win you know, in court kind of a thing. And

941
00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:06,360
Speaker 8: you know, brucellosis came to North America when we brought

942
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:10,279
Speaker 8: cattle from Europe and Africa and places like that. So

943
00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:15,400
Speaker 8: it's ironic that we colonized the Gray Plains with cattle

944
00:55:16,239 --> 00:55:20,240
Speaker 8: and we brought this disease with many some of those cattle,

945
00:55:20,719 --> 00:55:25,320
Speaker 8: and that disease is something that is a problem for profit.

946
00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:30,880
Speaker 8: And the USDA started in the nineteen thirties to eliminate

947
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:34,520
Speaker 8: brucellosis because back then there were a lot of people

948
00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:38,000
Speaker 8: that milk their cows and they had brucellosis and they

949
00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:42,239
Speaker 8: would create infection in humans. So because it was a

950
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:47,160
Speaker 8: factor to humans an ungula fever and so it creates

951
00:55:47,680 --> 00:55:50,440
Speaker 8: sort of you know, by late in the day you

952
00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:52,440
Speaker 8: feel lethargic and you have a fever.

953
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:58,320
Speaker 4: It creates some i think other infection.

954
00:55:58,120 --> 00:56:02,280
Speaker 8: Within the lymph system of the human being to basically

955
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:05,960
Speaker 8: drain energy from you. So you recover at nighttime, you

956
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:07,600
Speaker 8: get up in the morning and feel good, but by

957
00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:10,279
Speaker 8: you know, sometime during the day you're starting to feel

958
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:10,839
Speaker 8: tired again.

959
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:18,920
Speaker 1: I was I got that problem.

960
00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:22,120
Speaker 8: There was a lot of humans across the country and

961
00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:27,440
Speaker 8: that the infection actually caused problems to the military all

962
00:56:27,520 --> 00:56:31,480
Speaker 8: the way back when there was Mediterranean Wars, and it

963
00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:35,400
Speaker 8: was called Malta fever originally when it was first discovered

964
00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:38,520
Speaker 8: because an army over in the little tiny, you know,

965
00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:39,520
Speaker 8: island of Malta.

966
00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:41,319
Speaker 4: You know, all the soldiers were.

967
00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:44,399
Speaker 8: Getting you know, infected because they'd been drinking milk from

968
00:56:44,719 --> 00:56:47,040
Speaker 8: you know, the cows and stuff around the afternoon.

969
00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:53,120
Speaker 1: You can't fight, that's right, that's right.

970
00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:59,200
Speaker 8: So, so brucellosis is a worldwide issue, especially in developed countries.

971
00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:02,760
Speaker 8: But pastation made it a bit of a non issue.

972
00:57:03,440 --> 00:57:06,920
Speaker 8: And as we pasteurized milk over time, you know, we

973
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:12,719
Speaker 8: eliminated the bacteria from milk products. And the USDA was

974
00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:17,720
Speaker 8: very strategic and going around the country from nineteen thirty

975
00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:21,440
Speaker 8: to they started getting states bruce losis free in the

976
00:57:21,520 --> 00:57:24,160
Speaker 8: nineteen sixties and seventies. But what what they would do

977
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:27,600
Speaker 8: is go to the farm, test the farm animals. If

978
00:57:27,600 --> 00:57:30,520
Speaker 8: an animal had bruce losis. They'd make the farmer get

979
00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:32,760
Speaker 8: rid of all their cows and they'd pay them, you know.

980
00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:34,040
Speaker 4: Some price.

981
00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:35,200
Speaker 1: And that's how they tackled it.

982
00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:36,240
Speaker 4: That's how they tackled it.

983
00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:39,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so can you talk about transmission from one

984
00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:40,040
Speaker 1: animal to the next.

985
00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:46,400
Speaker 8: Yeah, the bacteria manifests itself in pretty concentrated forms in

986
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:47,760
Speaker 8: the amniotic.

987
00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:48,680
Speaker 4: Fluid of the reproductive track.

988
00:57:49,280 --> 00:57:52,720
Speaker 8: So whenever there's a still birth or even a natural birth,

989
00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:56,520
Speaker 8: you know, an animal infected has a full term calf,

990
00:57:56,640 --> 00:58:00,200
Speaker 8: the calf is born, the amniotic sack is spilled out,

991
00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:04,560
Speaker 8: all that fluid becomes a transmission factor, and they.

992
00:58:04,520 --> 00:58:05,520
Speaker 1: Got a desire to lick it.

993
00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:08,800
Speaker 8: For absolutely, yeah, absolutely, almost all of the you know,

994
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:11,600
Speaker 8: the mammals of that nature that are hurting, you know,

995
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:13,000
Speaker 8: grouping type animals.

996
00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:14,360
Speaker 4: You know, they're in groups.

997
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:16,760
Speaker 8: So when they see that first calf born, they all

998
00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:18,880
Speaker 8: want to go see it and you know, see.

999
00:58:18,760 --> 00:58:19,360
Speaker 4: What's going on.

1000
00:58:19,520 --> 00:58:22,040
Speaker 8: And as the first ten or fifteen percent of them

1001
00:58:22,080 --> 00:58:25,200
Speaker 8: are born, they're super curious, and then you know, the

1002
00:58:25,520 --> 00:58:28,200
Speaker 8: fascination wanes and by your time you're halfway through the

1003
00:58:28,480 --> 00:58:33,360
Speaker 8: breeding or calving season, they're not as interested in that

1004
00:58:33,480 --> 00:58:35,040
Speaker 8: because it's not new anymore.

1005
00:58:35,840 --> 00:58:38,840
Speaker 7: So they do they eat that they after birth, yep,

1006
00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:40,400
Speaker 7: And that's all.

1007
00:58:40,680 --> 00:58:45,200
Speaker 8: Yeah, absolutely, that's a survival mechanism for deer and elk

1008
00:58:45,240 --> 00:58:48,640
Speaker 8: and pronghorn because it cleans up the site, you know,

1009
00:58:48,720 --> 00:58:53,440
Speaker 8: and predators don't smell the offspring, the newborn fawns and calves.

1010
00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:55,800
Speaker 8: They don't have any odor for a short while, so

1011
00:58:56,440 --> 00:58:59,680
Speaker 8: you know, mom cleans up the burs, site stashes the calf.

1012
00:59:00,200 --> 00:59:02,600
Speaker 8: There's no smell in the predators you know, have to

1013
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:07,440
Speaker 8: more visually identify their prey than to do it through smell.

1014
00:59:08,280 --> 00:59:13,680
Speaker 4: So so and there's no reason just to like, you know,

1015
00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:16,160
Speaker 4: go back into this this point again.

1016
00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:23,040
Speaker 1: There's no reason that there's no thing about transmission to

1017
00:59:23,160 --> 00:59:28,800
Speaker 1: a cow like cattle cow. There's no reason that it

1018
00:59:29,040 --> 00:59:35,000
Speaker 1: getting the amniotic fluid or getting the bacteria from a

1019
00:59:35,120 --> 00:59:40,560
Speaker 1: bison's after birth. It's sort of like more concentrated or

1020
00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:43,200
Speaker 1: more likely to transmit to a cow than if a

1021
00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:45,840
Speaker 1: cow were to interact with the elks after birth.

1022
00:59:46,640 --> 00:59:48,640
Speaker 8: It's all at all the biology is all the same,

1023
00:59:49,080 --> 00:59:50,520
Speaker 8: all the same, and so.

1024
00:59:50,760 --> 00:59:53,880
Speaker 1: So if elk was infected in a cow lick that

1025
00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:57,360
Speaker 1: after birth, it's just as likely to transmit. It's just

1026
00:59:57,400 --> 00:59:59,360
Speaker 1: as likely to pick up that bacteria as if it

1027
00:59:59,440 --> 01:00:02,480
Speaker 1: came off of Oh yeah, absolutely sign a super bacteria

1028
01:00:02,560 --> 01:00:03,080
Speaker 1: in a bison.

1029
01:00:03,200 --> 01:00:06,160
Speaker 8: And there's some small concentrated areas of the Paradise Valley

1030
01:00:06,200 --> 01:00:10,120
Speaker 8: where the elk down there test positive at like almost

1031
01:00:10,160 --> 01:00:14,880
Speaker 8: fifty percent, and then other places in the system it's

1032
01:00:14,960 --> 01:00:19,880
Speaker 8: lower than that. And then the argument in the nineteen nineties,

1033
01:00:20,160 --> 01:00:24,040
Speaker 8: after you know, the state of Montana became brucellosis free,

1034
01:00:24,320 --> 01:00:27,560
Speaker 8: was that we can't afford to let our cattle ranchers

1035
01:00:27,680 --> 01:00:31,560
Speaker 8: have you know, any new brucellosis infection because of that.

1036
01:00:32,080 --> 01:00:34,480
Speaker 8: You know that policy I told you about if they

1037
01:00:34,600 --> 01:00:37,960
Speaker 8: get caught and one of their cows has brucellosis, the

1038
01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:41,200
Speaker 8: policy was, well, the USDA comes in, makes you get

1039
01:00:41,320 --> 01:00:43,800
Speaker 8: rid of all your cows, and I don't think they

1040
01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:48,520
Speaker 8: give them the fair market value, at least not considering

1041
01:00:48,600 --> 01:00:51,040
Speaker 8: what the future value would have been in those animals

1042
01:00:51,080 --> 01:00:56,280
Speaker 8: as well. So it's not as profitable for ranchers to

1043
01:00:56,480 --> 01:00:59,080
Speaker 8: just you know, live on the landscape and learn how

1044
01:00:59,160 --> 01:01:01,920
Speaker 8: to live with with brucellosis in the system.

1045
01:01:02,080 --> 01:01:05,920
Speaker 1: My understanding too on the brucellosis issue from a rancher's

1046
01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:10,200
Speaker 1: perspective is that when you have free status, you're there's

1047
01:01:10,240 --> 01:01:15,040
Speaker 1: some testing alleviation. But when you're in a when you

1048
01:01:15,240 --> 01:01:19,600
Speaker 1: when you're not operating in brucellosis free status, you're there's

1049
01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:20,880
Speaker 1: there's a testing requirement.

1050
01:01:21,800 --> 01:01:26,000
Speaker 7: Your region is designated as a brucellosis zone or brucellosis

1051
01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:28,680
Speaker 7: free zone, depending on where you are. That's that's what

1052
01:01:28,720 --> 01:01:29,360
Speaker 7: you're saying.

1053
01:01:29,200 --> 01:01:32,280
Speaker 8: Right, Yeah, yeah, So the the debate in Montana was that,

1054
01:01:33,320 --> 01:01:36,440
Speaker 8: you know, a rancher in Galaton County and Park County,

1055
01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:39,600
Speaker 8: you know, probably had a much higher probably, oh definitely

1056
01:01:39,680 --> 01:01:42,760
Speaker 8: has much higher probability of that as a threat to

1057
01:01:42,840 --> 01:01:47,640
Speaker 8: his livestock then a rancher from Calspell, because there isn't

1058
01:01:47,680 --> 01:01:52,280
Speaker 8: any brucellosis affected herds anywhere near Calispell. Got so when

1059
01:01:52,440 --> 01:01:57,040
Speaker 8: USDA would come in and, you know, find brucellosis in

1060
01:01:57,080 --> 01:02:02,760
Speaker 8: a cattle herd, they would shut down sales by the state,

1061
01:02:03,280 --> 01:02:08,600
Speaker 8: you know, statewide. And so that's why it was a problem,

1062
01:02:09,240 --> 01:02:13,320
Speaker 8: you know, economically for the state of Montana.

1063
01:02:13,400 --> 01:02:13,600
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1064
01:02:13,640 --> 01:02:17,160
Speaker 1: Some guy on weavo Montana like what, yeah, exactly, and

1065
01:02:17,360 --> 01:02:20,400
Speaker 1: so he would not be in the elk buffalo in years.

1066
01:02:20,360 --> 01:02:22,160
Speaker 4: Exactly the century maybe right now.

1067
01:02:23,480 --> 01:02:30,160
Speaker 8: So the USDA realized that that was an undue burden

1068
01:02:30,520 --> 01:02:33,840
Speaker 8: on that livestock industry, and in twenty ten they kind

1069
01:02:33,840 --> 01:02:35,200
Speaker 8: of changed all of the rules.

1070
01:02:35,680 --> 01:02:36,640
Speaker 4: Most of the rest of.

1071
01:02:36,680 --> 01:02:42,760
Speaker 8: The country had become brucellosis free industry was humming along brilliantly,

1072
01:02:43,520 --> 01:02:47,640
Speaker 8: and in twenty ten, USDA drew a line around basically

1073
01:02:47,760 --> 01:02:53,120
Speaker 8: the greater Yellowstone System. In fact, the line coincided exactly

1074
01:02:53,280 --> 01:02:58,080
Speaker 8: with where they thought brucellosis infected ELK occurred throughout the

1075
01:02:58,200 --> 01:03:00,720
Speaker 8: Yellowstone system, and said, all right, here's where.

1076
01:03:00,560 --> 01:03:01,200
Speaker 4: The thread is.

1077
01:03:01,920 --> 01:03:05,600
Speaker 8: Let's just apply this policy only in this area where

1078
01:03:06,120 --> 01:03:10,120
Speaker 8: ranchers are likely to encounter that issue. And so it

1079
01:03:10,320 --> 01:03:14,600
Speaker 8: greatly relieved, you know, ranchers from away from Yellowstone in

1080
01:03:14,680 --> 01:03:19,080
Speaker 8: the three states surrounding this region. So it changed the

1081
01:03:19,160 --> 01:03:24,240
Speaker 8: game completely in twenty ten. And so the court case

1082
01:03:24,360 --> 01:03:27,760
Speaker 8: between the governor of Montana and the federal agencies in

1083
01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:29,600
Speaker 8: nineteen ninety five was.

1084
01:03:29,680 --> 01:03:31,040
Speaker 1: That was that Governor Roscoe.

1085
01:03:31,160 --> 01:03:32,520
Speaker 4: It was Governor Roscoe, Yes.

1086
01:03:32,680 --> 01:03:37,080
Speaker 8: And so the complaint against the Feds was that, you know,

1087
01:03:37,600 --> 01:03:40,440
Speaker 8: if the state were to lose their brucellosis free status,

1088
01:03:40,640 --> 01:03:43,880
Speaker 8: it's going to affect a huge number of businessmen throughout

1089
01:03:43,920 --> 01:03:47,360
Speaker 8: the whole state. And so we can't let any bison

1090
01:03:47,480 --> 01:03:52,440
Speaker 8: leave the national park. Well, now that zone you know

1091
01:03:52,800 --> 01:03:57,200
Speaker 8: of acceptance anyway for brucellosis. And then new conservation measures

1092
01:03:57,240 --> 01:04:01,200
Speaker 8: put in place, you know, to protect the industry of

1093
01:04:01,320 --> 01:04:05,520
Speaker 8: farmers and ranchers within that zone, you know, change the

1094
01:04:05,680 --> 01:04:09,200
Speaker 8: name of change that game to the point where you know,

1095
01:04:09,760 --> 01:04:13,400
Speaker 8: ELK is still a threat to them and they won't

1096
01:04:13,600 --> 01:04:17,440
Speaker 8: lose their brucellosis status. But that farmer and rancher has

1097
01:04:17,520 --> 01:04:20,160
Speaker 8: to do that more intensive testing like you were talking about,

1098
01:04:20,840 --> 01:04:22,920
Speaker 8: And so they have to go in and test about

1099
01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:25,600
Speaker 8: every five or six months, and they have to have

1100
01:04:25,880 --> 01:04:28,720
Speaker 8: three tests in a row where none of the animals

1101
01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:31,880
Speaker 8: in their herd test positive. God, and then they clear

1102
01:04:32,520 --> 01:04:36,680
Speaker 8: that brucellosis effected herd. So it's very it's very burdens

1103
01:04:36,880 --> 01:04:39,280
Speaker 8: for a rancher to have to go do that, I believe,

1104
01:04:39,960 --> 01:04:42,120
Speaker 8: at least at one point, and I think it's still

1105
01:04:42,200 --> 01:04:45,760
Speaker 8: the case that USDA covers the cost of all that testing.

1106
01:04:46,760 --> 01:04:50,920
Speaker 8: And I'm pretty sure that ranchers round their cows up

1107
01:04:50,920 --> 01:04:53,920
Speaker 8: at least once a year to go through vaccinations and

1108
01:04:54,440 --> 01:04:58,400
Speaker 8: you know, weaning and what else, branding, all kinds of things.

1109
01:04:59,040 --> 01:05:04,680
Speaker 8: So at least one of those three roundups could be

1110
01:05:04,760 --> 01:05:07,080
Speaker 8: done at sort of the routine time of year, you know,

1111
01:05:07,200 --> 01:05:09,600
Speaker 8: when they do that kind of stuff, but having to

1112
01:05:09,720 --> 01:05:12,000
Speaker 8: do it three times in a row, and if they

1113
01:05:12,080 --> 01:05:14,600
Speaker 8: miss a time, you know, then it becomes four or

1114
01:05:14,720 --> 01:05:16,959
Speaker 8: five or six until they get to that three times

1115
01:05:17,000 --> 01:05:19,280
Speaker 8: in a row. So you can see that there is

1116
01:05:19,400 --> 01:05:24,480
Speaker 8: some economic impact to the cattle industry within this zone.

1117
01:05:25,320 --> 01:05:31,800
Speaker 8: So in twenty seventeen, the National Academy of Sciences came

1118
01:05:31,920 --> 01:05:35,240
Speaker 8: to the region and brought scientists that have been studying

1119
01:05:35,280 --> 01:05:39,200
Speaker 8: brucellosis all around the you know, the area and in

1120
01:05:39,320 --> 01:05:44,080
Speaker 8: their careers, and they looked at the issue and the

1121
01:05:45,680 --> 01:05:49,080
Speaker 8: questions that they were facing was, you know, is elk

1122
01:05:49,200 --> 01:05:50,840
Speaker 8: really a significant impact?

1123
01:05:51,400 --> 01:05:51,560
Speaker 1: You know?

1124
01:05:51,800 --> 01:05:54,840
Speaker 8: And that assumption that I talked about earlier that that

1125
01:05:54,920 --> 01:05:56,800
Speaker 8: would just go away if we got rid.

1126
01:05:56,680 --> 01:05:59,720
Speaker 4: Of brucellosis and bison. They disproved that.

1127
01:06:00,600 --> 01:06:03,040
Speaker 8: And the way they disproved that was to show that,

1128
01:06:03,880 --> 01:06:08,360
Speaker 8: you know, the elk in areas like Idaho where there's

1129
01:06:08,440 --> 01:06:12,120
Speaker 8: no bison interaction and the Green River Valley of Wyoming

1130
01:06:12,200 --> 01:06:16,280
Speaker 8: there's no buffalo interaction, there's a few places around where

1131
01:06:16,600 --> 01:06:20,320
Speaker 8: elk are infected with brucellosis, and they were infecting cattle

1132
01:06:20,560 --> 01:06:24,480
Speaker 8: of the area, and there was enough information on how

1133
01:06:24,880 --> 01:06:28,720
Speaker 8: elk move about the system. I heard you guys talking

1134
01:06:28,800 --> 01:06:32,760
Speaker 8: to Matt Kaufman not long ago, and Matt did a

1135
01:06:32,920 --> 01:06:36,120
Speaker 8: lot of studies with his students at the University of Wyoming,

1136
01:06:36,520 --> 01:06:39,840
Speaker 8: you know, with putting radio callers on and showing animal movements,

1137
01:06:40,520 --> 01:06:44,960
Speaker 8: and there are radio callers studies that show elk moving

1138
01:06:45,040 --> 01:06:49,400
Speaker 8: out of places like Jackson holl into Idaho into Montana,

1139
01:06:49,560 --> 01:06:54,800
Speaker 8: never even migrating through Yolstale National Park or anywhere where

1140
01:06:54,840 --> 01:06:59,520
Speaker 8: there's buffalo involved and cattle are getting infected with brucellosis.

1141
01:07:00,120 --> 01:07:03,840
Speaker 8: So it pretty much resolved the debate that elk are

1142
01:07:04,080 --> 01:07:08,120
Speaker 8: a maintenance reservoir of the disease, and you can't you

1143
01:07:08,240 --> 01:07:12,000
Speaker 8: can't just assume that solving the problem with buffalo will

1144
01:07:12,160 --> 01:07:16,520
Speaker 8: solve it with elk. And there's no way we're going

1145
01:07:16,600 --> 01:07:18,880
Speaker 8: to go around and round up every elk in the

1146
01:07:18,960 --> 01:07:22,080
Speaker 8: greater Yellowstone System suicide.

1147
01:07:22,160 --> 01:07:24,000
Speaker 4: That would be absolutely.

1148
01:07:25,160 --> 01:07:28,440
Speaker 1: And no one would proposed the hall.

1149
01:07:28,520 --> 01:07:30,720
Speaker 8: The elk need to go away, and that's the only

1150
01:07:30,840 --> 01:07:33,800
Speaker 8: way that you could do that, like they did it

1151
01:07:33,920 --> 01:07:36,720
Speaker 8: in the livestock industry, and they wouldn't have to do

1152
01:07:36,800 --> 01:07:42,760
Speaker 8: it once, they'd have to do it multiple times. I

1153
01:07:42,960 --> 01:07:46,240
Speaker 8: think that the industry is starting to realize that, well,

1154
01:07:46,960 --> 01:07:49,880
Speaker 8: until there's some sort of technology for learning how to

1155
01:07:50,440 --> 01:07:55,200
Speaker 8: you know, inoculate livestock, that is one hundred percent, you know,

1156
01:07:55,680 --> 01:07:59,240
Speaker 8: fool proof that their animals won't become infected. If they're

1157
01:07:59,600 --> 01:08:04,280
Speaker 8: you know, in counter of brucellosis affected birth site, then

1158
01:08:04,840 --> 01:08:07,000
Speaker 8: we're going to be living with brucellosis in the Greater

1159
01:08:07,080 --> 01:08:11,360
Speaker 8: Gilstone area. And so there's a great deal of debate

1160
01:08:11,520 --> 01:08:16,439
Speaker 8: among the staunch conservationists that, well, now, if elk are

1161
01:08:16,479 --> 01:08:19,400
Speaker 8: allowed to move along that around the system like that,

1162
01:08:20,160 --> 01:08:22,640
Speaker 8: why can't bison? You know, why do we have to

1163
01:08:22,760 --> 01:08:27,479
Speaker 8: have the conservation zone, you know, the Gardener Basin and

1164
01:08:27,760 --> 01:08:30,680
Speaker 8: the West Yellowstone Valley, and why can't it be that

1165
01:08:30,880 --> 01:08:36,280
Speaker 8: same zone that brucellosis infected elk have opportunity to roam around?

1166
01:08:37,000 --> 01:08:41,560
Speaker 8: And it'll take citizen debate, you know, to try and

1167
01:08:41,760 --> 01:08:45,479
Speaker 8: change the state of Montana's respect is to do something

1168
01:08:45,640 --> 01:08:49,840
Speaker 8: like that, because it won't just happen because Montana thinks

1169
01:08:49,920 --> 01:08:51,400
Speaker 8: that that that's the right thing to do.

1170
01:08:53,160 --> 01:08:55,320
Speaker 7: Even though elk destroy a lot of fences they do,

1171
01:08:55,840 --> 01:08:59,599
Speaker 7: they can still go over them absolutely, whereas the bison, well,

1172
01:09:00,720 --> 01:09:02,639
Speaker 7: you know, I'll argue with you on that one, Calvi

1173
01:09:02,720 --> 01:09:05,600
Speaker 7: because because I lived in the Gardener Basin for a

1174
01:09:05,680 --> 01:09:09,559
Speaker 7: long time, and I lived, you know, thirteen miles from

1175
01:09:09,640 --> 01:09:14,120
Speaker 7: the park boundary, and we periodically had twenty five thirty

1176
01:09:14,200 --> 01:09:17,080
Speaker 7: animals roll through our property of you know, four or.

1177
01:09:17,080 --> 01:09:22,360
Speaker 8: Five acres, and if you don't chase them, they'll figure

1178
01:09:22,360 --> 01:09:25,599
Speaker 8: out where the gate is and they'll walk to the gate.

1179
01:09:25,720 --> 01:09:27,639
Speaker 8: And if you go out and tell them you don't

1180
01:09:27,680 --> 01:09:31,840
Speaker 8: want them tearing up your new landscaping, they'll walk back.

1181
01:09:31,720 --> 01:09:32,680
Speaker 4: Over the gate and leave.

1182
01:09:33,520 --> 01:09:37,000
Speaker 8: And so I think it's a matter of humans learning

1183
01:09:37,040 --> 01:09:40,920
Speaker 8: how to live with wild bison, and it's inconvenient. It's

1184
01:09:41,200 --> 01:09:44,200
Speaker 8: more inconvenient to live with wild bison than it is

1185
01:09:44,320 --> 01:09:47,960
Speaker 8: to live with wild pronghorn, wild deer and things of

1186
01:09:48,040 --> 01:09:53,480
Speaker 8: that nature. And I think that bison as fence destroyers

1187
01:09:53,600 --> 01:09:57,160
Speaker 8: gets a bad name. You're right, you get to run

1188
01:09:57,280 --> 01:09:59,840
Speaker 8: in them and all they see the fence there, they

1189
01:10:00,040 --> 01:10:02,160
Speaker 8: don't even bother, They just blow right through it.

1190
01:10:03,080 --> 01:10:07,280
Speaker 7: I was I was like very shocked that day that

1191
01:10:07,360 --> 01:10:11,120
Speaker 7: I went to you know, admittedly one day, but there's

1192
01:10:11,160 --> 01:10:14,920
Speaker 7: this line of cows walking back towards the park, and

1193
01:10:15,240 --> 01:10:17,160
Speaker 7: you know, they'd lost a few members along the way,

1194
01:10:17,600 --> 01:10:22,640
Speaker 7: but they were still just just walking. And eventually the

1195
01:10:23,040 --> 01:10:25,559
Speaker 7: people who must have harassed them closer to the finish

1196
01:10:25,640 --> 01:10:29,080
Speaker 7: line than the start line came back a whole side

1197
01:10:29,080 --> 01:10:33,280
Speaker 7: of them, and that lead cow started trotting and just

1198
01:10:33,400 --> 01:10:37,880
Speaker 7: picked up steam and and she crossed the road, blew

1199
01:10:37,960 --> 01:10:42,080
Speaker 7: through a fence, went right through the ranch yard there,

1200
01:10:42,760 --> 01:10:45,200
Speaker 7: blew through the next fance, and I mean, and did

1201
01:10:45,280 --> 01:10:48,760
Speaker 7: so in a way that you're like, nothing would have

1202
01:10:48,960 --> 01:10:50,800
Speaker 7: diverted those changed her mind.

1203
01:10:51,040 --> 01:10:52,720
Speaker 4: That's right, nothing was exactly right.

1204
01:10:53,960 --> 01:10:56,840
Speaker 8: That was due to them learning the landscape and they

1205
01:10:57,040 --> 01:11:00,680
Speaker 8: recognized the hunters. You know, there's levels of stress goes

1206
01:11:00,800 --> 01:11:03,880
Speaker 8: up because they lost twenty five percent of their group,

1207
01:11:04,240 --> 01:11:07,160
Speaker 8: you know, ten miles behind them, and they knew where

1208
01:11:07,160 --> 01:11:10,519
Speaker 8: they were going. And if the hunters hadn't caught up

1209
01:11:10,560 --> 01:11:13,040
Speaker 8: with them and created that vision that they had just

1210
01:11:13,200 --> 01:11:16,599
Speaker 8: faced two hours ago, you know, they'd probably just kept

1211
01:11:16,640 --> 01:11:19,760
Speaker 8: walking and just walked, and they'd have gone to the gate.

1212
01:11:20,080 --> 01:11:22,400
Speaker 8: I'm positive they would have gone to the gate.

1213
01:11:22,600 --> 01:11:24,599
Speaker 7: I was pretty blown away though, because I was like, oh,

1214
01:11:24,680 --> 01:11:26,560
Speaker 7: that's a different wafer.

1215
01:11:28,040 --> 01:11:29,439
Speaker 1: For animals to act different.

1216
01:11:30,479 --> 01:11:32,760
Speaker 8: So, I mean, that brings up a good question that

1217
01:11:33,280 --> 01:11:35,759
Speaker 8: you guys discussed earlier about sort.

1218
01:11:35,560 --> 01:11:37,040
Speaker 4: Of the ethics of hunting.

1219
01:11:37,479 --> 01:11:38,800
Speaker 1: Well, I want to ask a different questions.

1220
01:11:38,840 --> 01:11:39,680
Speaker 4: Okay, okay, go.

1221
01:11:42,200 --> 01:11:45,800
Speaker 1: Can you walk me through that time period. I think

1222
01:11:45,840 --> 01:11:49,320
Speaker 1: of the the mid nineties, but maybe it was earlier

1223
01:11:49,560 --> 01:11:54,160
Speaker 1: that time period when the park hit a certain population

1224
01:11:54,520 --> 01:11:59,120
Speaker 1: of the animals, okay, where they needed to expand range.

1225
01:12:00,720 --> 01:12:01,360
Speaker 1: Do I understand?

1226
01:12:01,439 --> 01:12:03,720
Speaker 8: No, you got that right if you look back on

1227
01:12:04,120 --> 01:12:08,200
Speaker 8: over time, we brought all those animals I talked about. Oh,

1228
01:12:08,800 --> 01:12:11,240
Speaker 8: in the nineteen oh two was the first year they

1229
01:12:11,320 --> 01:12:14,560
Speaker 8: came to Mammoth. Nineteen oh seven they took you know,

1230
01:12:14,640 --> 01:12:17,120
Speaker 8: they filled up their capacity or of the pen around

1231
01:12:17,160 --> 01:12:19,240
Speaker 8: Mammoth and they moved them out to the Lamar Valley

1232
01:12:19,439 --> 01:12:20,760
Speaker 8: and they didn't put any fences up.

1233
01:12:20,880 --> 01:12:22,920
Speaker 4: They just let them roam. Well.

1234
01:12:23,840 --> 01:12:26,240
Speaker 8: They kind of stayed around there for a while, and

1235
01:12:26,479 --> 01:12:31,479
Speaker 8: the early park rangers and the old buffalo tenders used

1236
01:12:31,479 --> 01:12:34,000
Speaker 8: to get out on horseback and they'd chase them up

1237
01:12:34,040 --> 01:12:38,840
Speaker 8: into the hills, hoping that they could introduce the introduced

1238
01:12:38,880 --> 01:12:43,280
Speaker 8: herd to the native herd, because the native herd summered

1239
01:12:43,360 --> 01:12:46,040
Speaker 8: on the high plateau south of Lamar Valley up along

1240
01:12:46,080 --> 01:12:48,920
Speaker 8: the east boundary, and the native herd would migrate to

1241
01:12:48,960 --> 01:12:51,920
Speaker 8: Pelican Valley down by Yellowstone Lake in the winter, and

1242
01:12:52,080 --> 01:12:58,920
Speaker 8: so at the early teens into maybe nineteen twenty was

1243
01:12:59,160 --> 01:13:02,080
Speaker 8: sort of this you know, meeting of the two herds,

1244
01:13:02,880 --> 01:13:07,479
Speaker 8: and from there the Park Service thought that they really

1245
01:13:07,640 --> 01:13:13,679
Speaker 8: needed to, you know, ranch bison. It's the prevailing thought

1246
01:13:13,760 --> 01:13:18,280
Speaker 8: of how you restore wildlife populations. So they took plows

1247
01:13:18,360 --> 01:13:20,280
Speaker 8: to the Lamar Valley. If you go out, you can

1248
01:13:20,360 --> 01:13:24,560
Speaker 8: find old irrigation ditch lines. The Lamar Valley truly was

1249
01:13:24,640 --> 01:13:27,320
Speaker 8: a big ranch back in the nineteen twenties.

1250
01:13:27,439 --> 01:13:29,479
Speaker 1: If they were raisin grass, they were raisin grass.

1251
01:13:29,760 --> 01:13:32,640
Speaker 8: They were pushing it up with the beaver slides and

1252
01:13:32,840 --> 01:13:35,680
Speaker 8: stacking it all up, and then they would bring it

1253
01:13:35,760 --> 01:13:39,080
Speaker 8: into you know, the area that the bison could get

1254
01:13:39,120 --> 01:13:41,840
Speaker 8: to it, and they were helping the bison. You know,

1255
01:13:42,360 --> 01:13:44,920
Speaker 8: they might have even still been killing wolves and stuff,

1256
01:13:45,280 --> 01:13:48,240
Speaker 8: you know, in the early part of that century. Well,

1257
01:13:48,479 --> 01:13:52,840
Speaker 8: that was great for long term survival, and then the

1258
01:13:52,920 --> 01:13:55,360
Speaker 8: brucellosis issue came along. There was a bunch of up

1259
01:13:55,400 --> 01:13:59,880
Speaker 8: and down of population abundance because we tried to eliminate brucellosis.

1260
01:14:00,840 --> 01:14:04,240
Speaker 4: But in nineteen sixties nineteen sixty.

1261
01:14:03,960 --> 01:14:06,120
Speaker 8: Six, the park said, We're not going to do any

1262
01:14:06,160 --> 01:14:10,160
Speaker 8: of this ranching business anymore. We're going to follow this

1263
01:14:10,360 --> 01:14:15,360
Speaker 8: sort of let ecological processes play out. You know, people

1264
01:14:15,400 --> 01:14:18,160
Speaker 8: call it natural regulation, people call it all kinds of things.

1265
01:14:18,760 --> 01:14:24,240
Speaker 8: But ecology became sort of the leading edge of policy

1266
01:14:24,439 --> 01:14:26,479
Speaker 8: for the National Park Service, and.

1267
01:14:26,600 --> 01:14:27,640
Speaker 4: The bison knew what to do.

1268
01:14:28,439 --> 01:14:31,200
Speaker 8: You know that it was all about survival of the fittest.

1269
01:14:31,320 --> 01:14:33,799
Speaker 8: They knew where to go to find those old hay fields.

1270
01:14:34,560 --> 01:14:38,160
Speaker 8: And there are records that in the nineteen forties there

1271
01:14:38,240 --> 01:14:40,679
Speaker 8: was some big winters, like maybe a couple of years ago,

1272
01:14:41,400 --> 01:14:45,360
Speaker 8: and some pretty good size groups went to Gardner Basin.

1273
01:14:46,160 --> 01:14:49,720
Speaker 8: A group of forty some animals in nineteen forty three

1274
01:14:49,960 --> 01:14:52,120
Speaker 8: migrated almost to immigrant.

1275
01:14:52,520 --> 01:14:54,320
Speaker 1: No kidd, no kidding, They let them.

1276
01:14:55,160 --> 01:14:59,880
Speaker 8: Well, I think there was some sympathy because of how

1277
01:15:00,000 --> 01:15:01,360
Speaker 8: how difficult.

1278
01:15:00,920 --> 01:15:01,720
Speaker 4: The winter was.

1279
01:15:02,640 --> 01:15:04,559
Speaker 1: I had no idea they were leaving the park at

1280
01:15:04,600 --> 01:15:06,280
Speaker 1: that back that longer yep.

1281
01:15:06,400 --> 01:15:11,360
Speaker 8: And so about that time is when you started seeing

1282
01:15:11,439 --> 01:15:16,320
Speaker 8: in the historic record observations at least the sort of

1283
01:15:16,720 --> 01:15:20,080
Speaker 8: older males leaving the the winter range up in the

1284
01:15:20,160 --> 01:15:23,720
Speaker 8: Lamar Valley and around Gardener you could find a few

1285
01:15:25,000 --> 01:15:25,840
Speaker 8: nearly every year.

1286
01:15:26,800 --> 01:15:30,439
Speaker 1: At that point, what's the farthest you know of of

1287
01:15:30,560 --> 01:15:32,000
Speaker 1: a park? Uh?

1288
01:15:32,680 --> 01:15:34,760
Speaker 4: Buffalo ever making it out of the park.

1289
01:15:35,479 --> 01:15:39,840
Speaker 8: Let's see I'm guessing that's about it. The winter of

1290
01:15:39,960 --> 01:15:43,000
Speaker 8: ninety six ninety seven was another really big winter if

1291
01:15:43,040 --> 01:15:44,360
Speaker 8: anyone was around here, though.

1292
01:15:44,200 --> 01:15:46,320
Speaker 1: Oh that was that's when this killer. That's when the

1293
01:15:46,400 --> 01:15:48,880
Speaker 1: issue just blew up, totally blew because it was a

1294
01:15:48,880 --> 01:15:52,679
Speaker 1: department of livestock guys on snow machines, just dumping hundreds

1295
01:15:52,680 --> 01:15:52,920
Speaker 1: of them.

1296
01:15:53,320 --> 01:15:55,400
Speaker 5: That's from the Buffalo Field campaign, that's right.

1297
01:15:55,520 --> 01:15:59,120
Speaker 8: They started up about that time, and animals were on

1298
01:15:59,800 --> 01:16:05,960
Speaker 8: in little nooks and crannies again as far south or east? No, north, No,

1299
01:16:06,120 --> 01:16:08,519
Speaker 8: it's north, isn't it? As an immigrant and some of

1300
01:16:08,600 --> 01:16:09,600
Speaker 8: the farms around.

1301
01:16:11,400 --> 01:16:13,840
Speaker 10: How far how many miles north I live?

1302
01:16:13,920 --> 01:16:18,080
Speaker 8: So I should immigrant to the Lamar Valley? Is the

1303
01:16:18,160 --> 01:16:20,080
Speaker 8: audience can get us eighty miles?

1304
01:16:20,280 --> 01:16:20,719
Speaker 4: Probably?

1305
01:16:21,520 --> 01:16:21,560
Speaker 11: So?

1306
01:16:22,479 --> 01:16:25,320
Speaker 8: And bison migrate differently.

1307
01:16:25,479 --> 01:16:26,040
Speaker 4: It's sort of a.

1308
01:16:27,720 --> 01:16:32,360
Speaker 8: Combination of nomadism and migration because when you see them

1309
01:16:32,439 --> 01:16:36,200
Speaker 8: in the fall, they're a little bit more nomadic early

1310
01:16:36,320 --> 01:16:39,680
Speaker 8: in the fall, because they kind of they reach out

1311
01:16:39,760 --> 01:16:42,040
Speaker 8: and walk to where they think they might go three

1312
01:16:42,120 --> 01:16:43,960
Speaker 8: or four months from now, and then.

1313
01:16:43,880 --> 01:16:46,040
Speaker 4: They walk back like a mission exactly.

1314
01:16:46,720 --> 01:16:50,240
Speaker 8: So bison will leave like the Hayden Valley and they'll

1315
01:16:50,280 --> 01:16:52,679
Speaker 8: go over the top of the Merry Mountain and down

1316
01:16:52,760 --> 01:16:57,280
Speaker 8: into the Old Faithful area, and they might mill around

1317
01:16:57,320 --> 01:17:00,360
Speaker 8: Old Faithful for three or four months, and then the

1318
01:17:00,520 --> 01:17:02,760
Speaker 8: next time they want to move, they'll move down to

1319
01:17:02,880 --> 01:17:06,639
Speaker 8: Madison Junction. And there they have two avenues. They either

1320
01:17:06,720 --> 01:17:09,040
Speaker 8: go west or go north, you know, from that and

1321
01:17:09,479 --> 01:17:11,880
Speaker 8: and some of those migrations are a little over one

1322
01:17:11,960 --> 01:17:15,680
Speaker 8: hundred miles. So animals that you could find near the

1323
01:17:16,360 --> 01:17:20,920
Speaker 8: mud mud pots of Hayden Valley could end up in

1324
01:17:21,080 --> 01:17:24,800
Speaker 8: the gardener Hunt just outside the park. And that's a

1325
01:17:24,920 --> 01:17:27,759
Speaker 8: little over one hundred miles if you if you follow

1326
01:17:27,840 --> 01:17:32,120
Speaker 8: the route that they take, and we've seen animals move

1327
01:17:32,760 --> 01:17:35,360
Speaker 8: from the Hayden Valley out west, they end up out

1328
01:17:35,400 --> 01:17:39,320
Speaker 8: at West Yellowstone. They would get harassed, you know, and

1329
01:17:39,439 --> 01:17:42,639
Speaker 8: pushed back to the park. And they knew they needed

1330
01:17:42,680 --> 01:17:45,200
Speaker 8: to go somewhere because they're looking for that green up

1331
01:17:45,479 --> 01:17:47,920
Speaker 8: and the low elevator that Matt talked about, you know

1332
01:17:48,080 --> 01:17:50,519
Speaker 8: several podcasts.

1333
01:17:51,880 --> 01:17:52,840
Speaker 4: And the green wave.

1334
01:17:53,080 --> 01:17:57,200
Speaker 8: Yeah, they're going down to surf and when they can't

1335
01:17:57,320 --> 01:18:00,920
Speaker 8: get to it going west at West Yellowstone. All of

1336
01:18:00,960 --> 01:18:03,200
Speaker 8: that pressure to push them back into the park I

1337
01:18:03,360 --> 01:18:08,280
Speaker 8: think generated more exploratory behavior and they push north and

1338
01:18:09,360 --> 01:18:13,160
Speaker 8: gardener basins like the first place to green up unless

1339
01:18:13,240 --> 01:18:15,960
Speaker 8: you're at one of the hot springs all around.

1340
01:18:16,080 --> 01:18:17,679
Speaker 4: But it's that low elevation area.

1341
01:18:18,240 --> 01:18:22,000
Speaker 8: You know, it has the least amount of snow pack,

1342
01:18:22,120 --> 01:18:26,320
Speaker 8: it's got the earliest amount of our earliest temperature of

1343
01:18:26,439 --> 01:18:29,280
Speaker 8: thirty two degrees and warmer, you know, you get the

1344
01:18:29,400 --> 01:18:32,479
Speaker 8: green up. And once they find the green up, they'll

1345
01:18:32,560 --> 01:18:35,120
Speaker 8: just camp on it and follow the green up back

1346
01:18:35,280 --> 01:18:38,960
Speaker 8: through the elevational gradient until they get to some of

1347
01:18:39,000 --> 01:18:43,000
Speaker 8: the bigger grasslands in the park, and then they'll kind

1348
01:18:43,040 --> 01:18:45,719
Speaker 8: of let the greenup go on higher and they'll camp

1349
01:18:46,000 --> 01:18:47,519
Speaker 8: and make lawns.

1350
01:18:48,280 --> 01:18:50,280
Speaker 3: Is this snowpack that pushes those bison.

1351
01:18:50,720 --> 01:18:54,440
Speaker 8: Yes, it's a combination of abundance and snowpack.

1352
01:18:54,920 --> 01:18:55,640
Speaker 3: And in the.

1353
01:18:57,280 --> 01:19:00,960
Speaker 8: In the nineteen nineties, in the early two thousands, there

1354
01:19:01,120 --> 01:19:06,599
Speaker 8: was a thought that it was abundance of about two

1355
01:19:06,720 --> 01:19:10,439
Speaker 8: thousand animals that would really, you know, create that social

1356
01:19:11,960 --> 01:19:16,320
Speaker 8: social competition for bites of grass underneath the snow, and

1357
01:19:16,479 --> 01:19:19,960
Speaker 8: that some would leave and some would keep working the snowpack.

1358
01:19:20,680 --> 01:19:24,200
Speaker 8: And I think because of all of the pressure in

1359
01:19:24,320 --> 01:19:26,720
Speaker 8: the last twenty or thirty years of pushing them back

1360
01:19:26,840 --> 01:19:30,439
Speaker 8: into the park. What we've really done is we've made

1361
01:19:30,520 --> 01:19:34,439
Speaker 8: them search farther and wider, and now there's more that

1362
01:19:34,640 --> 01:19:38,759
Speaker 8: are the you know diggers that dig the big pits

1363
01:19:38,880 --> 01:19:43,440
Speaker 8: to find that the grass under the snow, and there's

1364
01:19:43,479 --> 01:19:48,320
Speaker 8: an ecology behind that, and that the larger animals move

1365
01:19:48,400 --> 01:19:51,519
Speaker 8: those big heads and make little craters for feeding in,

1366
01:19:52,240 --> 01:19:55,200
Speaker 8: and the younger animals with the smaller heads wait till

1367
01:19:55,200 --> 01:19:56,840
Speaker 8: they abandon the craters and they.

1368
01:19:56,840 --> 01:19:58,479
Speaker 4: Go over and they eat the residual.

1369
01:20:00,360 --> 01:20:03,240
Speaker 8: Groups of animals have learned how to you know, carry

1370
01:20:03,439 --> 01:20:07,240
Speaker 8: young animals through the winter by digging all those feeding

1371
01:20:07,320 --> 01:20:11,400
Speaker 8: craters and tramping down all those ski trails or you

1372
01:20:11,479 --> 01:20:14,599
Speaker 8: know trails for walking around. Like we make ski trails,

1373
01:20:14,640 --> 01:20:17,080
Speaker 8: they make buffalo trails. You pack it down and you

1374
01:20:17,160 --> 01:20:19,320
Speaker 8: can take your skis off and jump in those trails

1375
01:20:19,360 --> 01:20:23,920
Speaker 8: and walk just like they do. And so there's two

1376
01:20:24,040 --> 01:20:27,040
Speaker 8: or three different strategies now for wild bison to survive.

1377
01:20:27,600 --> 01:20:31,040
Speaker 8: You know, there's the stay in the park and avoid

1378
01:20:31,080 --> 01:20:34,400
Speaker 8: the hunt, and there's the migrate to lower elevation hunt

1379
01:20:34,560 --> 01:20:38,040
Speaker 8: looking for the early spring green up and you know,

1380
01:20:38,320 --> 01:20:41,840
Speaker 8: not wanting to plow through the snow, but then you

1381
01:20:42,000 --> 01:20:44,640
Speaker 8: run the risk of the harvest. You know, once you

1382
01:20:44,760 --> 01:20:45,919
Speaker 8: leave the national park.

1383
01:20:45,880 --> 01:20:50,240
Speaker 1: If you had to take a wild ass guess on

1384
01:20:50,360 --> 01:20:55,320
Speaker 1: a bad winter, if no one messed with them, do

1385
01:20:55,360 --> 01:20:59,120
Speaker 1: you think animals would leave the park and then not

1386
01:20:59,240 --> 01:20:59,840
Speaker 1: even come back.

1387
01:21:00,120 --> 01:21:02,559
Speaker 4: No, you think they'd go back. I think they'd go back.

1388
01:21:03,080 --> 01:21:08,200
Speaker 8: I think you'd see I mean, there's always the exception, right, sure,

1389
01:21:08,600 --> 01:21:11,559
Speaker 8: so you might see a few. But the way animals

1390
01:21:11,680 --> 01:21:14,799
Speaker 8: expand their range, and I didn't finish that story earlier,

1391
01:21:15,400 --> 01:21:20,799
Speaker 8: is that the bulls are the pioneers, and the bulls

1392
01:21:21,160 --> 01:21:25,519
Speaker 8: wander farther because you know, they're bigger animals. You know,

1393
01:21:25,680 --> 01:21:29,600
Speaker 8: they can't compete with the big crowds of bison that

1394
01:21:29,680 --> 01:21:31,920
Speaker 8: hang out in the big groups. So bulls are going

1395
01:21:32,000 --> 01:21:34,519
Speaker 8: to go out and look for small, little pockets of

1396
01:21:34,600 --> 01:21:38,439
Speaker 8: high productivity and just camp on that pocket. You know,

1397
01:21:38,560 --> 01:21:41,760
Speaker 8: they might live in a one acre patch in the

1398
01:21:42,040 --> 01:21:46,000
Speaker 8: forest of trees, but if it's a you know of marsh,

1399
01:21:46,560 --> 01:21:50,200
Speaker 8: you know, and super productive, you know, they'll do fine

1400
01:21:50,320 --> 01:21:52,759
Speaker 8: feeding themselves for a long period of time if they don't.

1401
01:21:52,600 --> 01:21:53,960
Speaker 4: Have to compete with anybody else.

1402
01:21:55,000 --> 01:22:00,880
Speaker 8: And so bulls are the much more expected pieeers. On

1403
01:22:01,040 --> 01:22:05,760
Speaker 8: how bison would expand their range and the females are

1404
01:22:05,920 --> 01:22:10,479
Speaker 8: the trackers, you know, they follow, follow footprints, they follow

1405
01:22:11,760 --> 01:22:15,160
Speaker 8: you know, buffalo patties. The whole works follow the trails

1406
01:22:15,200 --> 01:22:19,519
Speaker 8: that are left behind. And in the nineteen eighties, when

1407
01:22:19,640 --> 01:22:25,080
Speaker 8: the population in the Hayden Valley area grew to I

1408
01:22:25,200 --> 01:22:27,840
Speaker 8: think it was a little over two thousand at that point,

1409
01:22:28,040 --> 01:22:30,760
Speaker 8: just in that part of the park, you know, the

1410
01:22:30,840 --> 01:22:33,599
Speaker 8: firehole geyser basin wasn't big enough for him in the wintertime,

1411
01:22:34,080 --> 01:22:38,040
Speaker 8: and so they started pioneering down to the west boundary

1412
01:22:38,680 --> 01:22:44,040
Speaker 8: and we started seeing these rare bull occurrences in West

1413
01:22:44,120 --> 01:22:48,120
Speaker 8: Yellowstone and Horse Butte in places like that, And then

1414
01:22:48,240 --> 01:22:50,360
Speaker 8: there was some there was a couple of big snow

1415
01:22:50,439 --> 01:22:52,960
Speaker 8: years in that decade too, and so it was those

1416
01:22:53,000 --> 01:22:57,240
Speaker 8: big snow years that create you know, deeper snow pack.

1417
01:22:57,880 --> 01:23:01,440
Speaker 8: And in later years, during those years of deep snowpack,

1418
01:23:02,080 --> 01:23:04,599
Speaker 8: as you start to get longer days, a little bit

1419
01:23:04,680 --> 01:23:07,559
Speaker 8: more warmth, you get a little melting of that snow.

1420
01:23:08,240 --> 01:23:12,120
Speaker 8: Nighttime it gets who cold, Bison can't do their thing,

1421
01:23:12,760 --> 01:23:16,240
Speaker 8: you know, their heads don't dig ice, they only move

1422
01:23:16,520 --> 01:23:19,479
Speaker 8: like fluffy snow out of the way. And in fact

1423
01:23:19,720 --> 01:23:22,720
Speaker 8: you can see, you know, herds of buffalo walking on

1424
01:23:22,920 --> 01:23:26,519
Speaker 8: top of the snow and Maybruary in March sometimes with

1425
01:23:26,920 --> 01:23:31,439
Speaker 8: you know, significant melt and refreezing, and that's when they

1426
01:23:31,600 --> 01:23:37,479
Speaker 8: simply bail and they walk long distances and they follow

1427
01:23:37,520 --> 01:23:40,519
Speaker 8: those trails that the bulls laid down, and they go, Okay,

1428
01:23:40,560 --> 01:23:42,360
Speaker 8: the bulls know where they're going. Let's go find those

1429
01:23:42,439 --> 01:23:45,880
Speaker 8: guys and maybe there's something better at lower elevations.

1430
01:23:46,520 --> 01:23:48,920
Speaker 4: So in the mid nineteen.

1431
01:23:48,640 --> 01:23:52,760
Speaker 8: Eighties, Montana instituted buffalo hunts, you know, and a few

1432
01:23:53,040 --> 01:23:57,560
Speaker 8: animals were harvested by hunters and it was, you know,

1433
01:23:57,760 --> 01:23:59,559
Speaker 8: it was a good thing for hunters, you know, there

1434
01:23:59,680 --> 01:24:02,120
Speaker 8: was something knew to go out and try and harvest.

1435
01:24:02,800 --> 01:24:06,759
Speaker 8: But in the winter following the big fires of nineteen

1436
01:24:06,800 --> 01:24:10,840
Speaker 8: eighty eight, you know, two things happened. The fires burned

1437
01:24:10,920 --> 01:24:15,760
Speaker 8: up a lot of that summer forage production, so the

1438
01:24:15,960 --> 01:24:18,799
Speaker 8: animals would dig down through the snow and find black

1439
01:24:19,400 --> 01:24:22,439
Speaker 8: and it wasn't it wasn't what they expected. And so

1440
01:24:22,800 --> 01:24:26,320
Speaker 8: there was pretty good sized migrations both to West Yellowstone

1441
01:24:26,400 --> 01:24:30,760
Speaker 8: and to Gardner, and the hunters couldn't keep up with

1442
01:24:30,960 --> 01:24:33,600
Speaker 8: the harvest. So the game wardens were down there. The

1443
01:24:33,840 --> 01:24:37,360
Speaker 8: Department of Livestock guys were down there enforcing, you know,

1444
01:24:37,479 --> 01:24:40,360
Speaker 8: we don't want any bison out of the park. And

1445
01:24:40,920 --> 01:24:45,400
Speaker 8: I think that I think that year it was like

1446
01:24:46,080 --> 01:24:51,960
Speaker 8: eight hundred animals were killed by hunters, game wardens, dol

1447
01:24:52,040 --> 01:24:55,360
Speaker 8: agents and the park Service rangers even pitched in and

1448
01:24:55,479 --> 01:24:55,960
Speaker 8: helped out.

1449
01:24:56,439 --> 01:24:58,840
Speaker 1: How many what was the total population if they killed

1450
01:24:58,880 --> 01:25:01,120
Speaker 1: eight hundred, how many were the That's a good question.

1451
01:25:01,080 --> 01:25:01,800
Speaker 4: I have to think.

1452
01:25:01,840 --> 01:25:07,800
Speaker 8: In nineteen eighty eight, I think it was twenty five

1453
01:25:07,920 --> 01:25:11,400
Speaker 8: hundred or something. It wasn't huge because now it'll get

1454
01:25:11,400 --> 01:25:13,680
Speaker 8: to three or four, right, right, And that's where I

1455
01:25:13,840 --> 01:25:16,680
Speaker 8: was telling you that we thought that two thousand was

1456
01:25:16,800 --> 01:25:20,040
Speaker 8: the sort of number that they'd get to that would

1457
01:25:20,080 --> 01:25:24,120
Speaker 8: sort of drive social capacity of the system to you know,

1458
01:25:24,240 --> 01:25:28,280
Speaker 8: dig the feeding craves and migrate to the boundary. Well, now,

1459
01:25:28,600 --> 01:25:33,160
Speaker 8: because of forty years of this aggressive management on the boundary,

1460
01:25:34,400 --> 01:25:37,720
Speaker 8: I think that number is now more like, you know,

1461
01:25:38,160 --> 01:25:42,360
Speaker 8: three thousand or so on sort of average to slightly

1462
01:25:42,400 --> 01:25:46,559
Speaker 8: above average years. Two years ago was not even close

1463
01:25:46,640 --> 01:25:46,840
Speaker 8: to that.

1464
01:25:47,400 --> 01:25:50,120
Speaker 4: It was like the storm of the last.

1465
01:25:49,960 --> 01:25:53,679
Speaker 8: Three or four decades, I think, And so I would

1466
01:25:53,720 --> 01:25:56,200
Speaker 8: bet that eighty percent of the population.

1467
01:25:55,880 --> 01:25:59,679
Speaker 4: Leaves when you have one of those storms.

1468
01:25:59,720 --> 01:26:03,880
Speaker 8: Of you know, of the half century or greater. So

1469
01:26:04,920 --> 01:26:08,439
Speaker 8: that's where society has to decide, well, what is the

1470
01:26:08,600 --> 01:26:12,040
Speaker 8: right number to try and manage for because you know,

1471
01:26:12,240 --> 01:26:15,559
Speaker 8: it's easy to think that you could do it when

1472
01:26:15,600 --> 01:26:20,040
Speaker 8: you have below average average, maybe even slightly above average

1473
01:26:20,120 --> 01:26:22,360
Speaker 8: years where a bunch of animals are leaving, you use

1474
01:26:22,439 --> 01:26:26,599
Speaker 8: hunters to manage distribution. You know, if things got really bad,

1475
01:26:26,760 --> 01:26:29,639
Speaker 8: you'd put some traps in place and catch some animals,

1476
01:26:29,960 --> 01:26:33,040
Speaker 8: much like the park does it at Stevens Creek there

1477
01:26:33,080 --> 01:26:35,920
Speaker 8: in the gardener basin. The state has a trap they

1478
01:26:35,960 --> 01:26:38,840
Speaker 8: can set up over by West Yellowstone and they used to,

1479
01:26:39,160 --> 01:26:40,880
Speaker 8: you know, use it a lot when there was more

1480
01:26:40,960 --> 01:26:45,880
Speaker 8: migration that way. So for the last twenty years or

1481
01:26:45,960 --> 01:26:50,000
Speaker 8: thirty years, I think we've tried so many different things

1482
01:26:50,120 --> 01:26:53,240
Speaker 8: that I think we've learned to live with wild bison.

1483
01:26:53,920 --> 01:26:58,800
Speaker 8: And I think that we have the technology, we have

1484
01:26:58,960 --> 01:27:01,839
Speaker 8: the communications skill to get hunters in the right places

1485
01:27:01,920 --> 01:27:07,000
Speaker 8: to harvest animals. And it seems like there's interest by

1486
01:27:07,160 --> 01:27:10,599
Speaker 8: more and more tribes to want to go and harvest

1487
01:27:10,680 --> 01:27:15,080
Speaker 8: bison from the Yellowstone population because they're the remnants of

1488
01:27:15,240 --> 01:27:19,280
Speaker 8: the last wild herds that never were gone from this

1489
01:27:19,479 --> 01:27:24,759
Speaker 8: particular latinscape, and so their cultural significance is way above

1490
01:27:25,400 --> 01:27:29,679
Speaker 8: the cultural significance of other herds of bison all across

1491
01:27:29,720 --> 01:27:33,560
Speaker 8: the country. So if a tribal member of the you know,

1492
01:27:33,880 --> 01:27:36,160
Speaker 8: you name it different tribe that buffalo are a part

1493
01:27:36,200 --> 01:27:39,759
Speaker 8: of their culture, you know, were to go harvest an animal,

1494
01:27:41,280 --> 01:27:43,760
Speaker 8: going to Yellowstone and doing it is at the top

1495
01:27:43,800 --> 01:27:46,560
Speaker 8: of their list. Going to Fort Peck to do it

1496
01:27:46,760 --> 01:27:49,840
Speaker 8: like you did once upon a time becaun't as high

1497
01:27:49,960 --> 01:27:53,200
Speaker 8: on their list as going to Yellowstone, you know, to

1498
01:27:53,320 --> 01:27:57,120
Speaker 8: harvest and animals. Sure, so there's a great deal of

1499
01:27:57,680 --> 01:28:03,160
Speaker 8: national significance to preserve you know, this population because of

1500
01:28:03,280 --> 01:28:07,720
Speaker 8: its you know, sol remaining wild herd that never evaporated

1501
01:28:07,800 --> 01:28:12,320
Speaker 8: from the system in the in the history is history.

1502
01:28:12,800 --> 01:28:16,519
Speaker 1: Is it plausible that there's like a does the tolerance

1503
01:28:16,600 --> 01:28:19,719
Speaker 1: zone have to include major valleys?

1504
01:28:22,560 --> 01:28:25,320
Speaker 13: You know you're asking you're asking me, well, no, I

1505
01:28:25,400 --> 01:28:28,679
Speaker 13: think the animal I'm saying from the animals perspectives, because

1506
01:28:28,680 --> 01:28:32,360
Speaker 13: they're saying pointless if it doesn't include the Upper Madison,

1507
01:28:32,560 --> 01:28:35,720
Speaker 13: if it doesn't include the Upper Yellowstone, is it pointless?

1508
01:28:35,840 --> 01:28:37,040
Speaker 4: I think you're right, you.

1509
01:28:37,080 --> 01:28:40,160
Speaker 1: Know, so to say, like, okay, anything that's designated wilderness

1510
01:28:40,200 --> 01:28:41,479
Speaker 1: area is now a tolerant zone.

1511
01:28:41,479 --> 01:28:42,960
Speaker 4: They're not going to go there anyway. In the summer

1512
01:28:43,000 --> 01:28:45,640
Speaker 4: they might, they won't stay there. They'll need to go

1513
01:28:45,880 --> 01:28:46,479
Speaker 4: somewhere else.

1514
01:28:46,560 --> 01:28:49,960
Speaker 8: And I mean, yeah, a few of them, the hardy bulls,

1515
01:28:50,040 --> 01:28:53,280
Speaker 8: the tough guys of the population, they'll figure out how

1516
01:28:53,320 --> 01:28:54,479
Speaker 8: to find a wind blown ridge.

1517
01:28:54,640 --> 01:28:57,760
Speaker 1: But to open up more of the to open up

1518
01:28:57,840 --> 01:29:00,840
Speaker 1: more of the landscape, you have to open up the

1519
01:29:00,920 --> 01:29:05,040
Speaker 1: big You're gonna have to open up like tom Minor Basin,

1520
01:29:05,400 --> 01:29:07,439
Speaker 1: you know, in the upper part of Paris Valley, or

1521
01:29:08,200 --> 01:29:12,320
Speaker 1: even you know, even down to Immigrant or something like that.

1522
01:29:12,479 --> 01:29:16,680
Speaker 8: You need some grassland kind of areas that have lower elevation.

1523
01:29:16,880 --> 01:29:20,840
Speaker 1: Have something, because exactly they're giving them a ground that

1524
01:29:20,840 --> 01:29:21,640
Speaker 1: doesn't matter to them.

1525
01:29:21,800 --> 01:29:24,479
Speaker 8: Yeah, they're gonna go somewhere where there's six inches of snow.

1526
01:29:24,479 --> 01:29:26,439
Speaker 8: They're not going to migrate to somewhere where there's three

1527
01:29:26,479 --> 01:29:28,840
Speaker 8: feet of snow. I'm kind of like, let's go to

1528
01:29:28,880 --> 01:29:31,640
Speaker 8: the high country. Yeah, unless you've got hot springs. And

1529
01:29:31,720 --> 01:29:35,960
Speaker 8: that's why the central interior part of Yellowstone saved so

1530
01:29:36,200 --> 01:29:39,679
Speaker 8: many animals is the Firehole Geyser Basin has a bunch

1531
01:29:39,720 --> 01:29:42,519
Speaker 8: of hot springs. Even Hayden Valley has a couple of

1532
01:29:42,600 --> 01:29:48,680
Speaker 8: really cool geyser basins that create a melting phenomena that

1533
01:29:48,960 --> 01:29:54,000
Speaker 8: can they can find sedges. They're green, they're green year round,

1534
01:29:54,080 --> 01:29:54,799
Speaker 8: and that's good.

1535
01:29:54,720 --> 01:29:55,360
Speaker 4: Stuff for them.

1536
01:29:56,560 --> 01:30:02,000
Speaker 8: And so you'd need places like and Wyoming you'd want

1537
01:30:02,120 --> 01:30:06,559
Speaker 8: to preserve or identify trying to think of the name

1538
01:30:06,600 --> 01:30:06,760
Speaker 8: of it.

1539
01:30:06,920 --> 01:30:11,040
Speaker 4: It's called Sun Sun something.

1540
01:30:12,200 --> 01:30:15,400
Speaker 8: Just outside the northeast corner of the of the park,

1541
01:30:15,479 --> 01:30:18,800
Speaker 8: there's a couple of high elevation grasslands that might work,

1542
01:30:19,360 --> 01:30:24,720
Speaker 8: you know, And I'll bet historically, prehistorically bison out of

1543
01:30:24,800 --> 01:30:27,400
Speaker 8: Wyoming would venture all the way up to the high

1544
01:30:27,439 --> 01:30:31,360
Speaker 8: Country from that east side and would utilize some of

1545
01:30:31,439 --> 01:30:32,280
Speaker 8: that area as well.

1546
01:30:34,600 --> 01:30:36,840
Speaker 1: Do you know what the skull I found? No, I

1547
01:30:36,920 --> 01:30:39,480
Speaker 1: found a skull over nine thousand feet in the Madison's

1548
01:30:39,800 --> 01:30:40,360
Speaker 1: see that.

1549
01:30:40,439 --> 01:30:44,000
Speaker 8: I bet that's a probably was a bull, huh, had

1550
01:30:44,040 --> 01:30:46,760
Speaker 8: a radio carbon dated oh cool, And it probably was

1551
01:30:46,840 --> 01:30:50,400
Speaker 8: going up there in the summertime because followed the green

1552
01:30:50,479 --> 01:30:54,120
Speaker 8: wave the whole way to where the green waves are

1553
01:30:54,240 --> 01:30:57,720
Speaker 8: way up there, and there's some lush, productive, you know,

1554
01:30:57,840 --> 01:31:00,720
Speaker 8: places to graze in that high country area, and there's

1555
01:31:00,760 --> 01:31:03,280
Speaker 8: some places like that in the park where there's some

1556
01:31:03,560 --> 01:31:07,800
Speaker 8: archaeological sites of single animal kills, you know, up around

1557
01:31:07,880 --> 01:31:11,879
Speaker 8: Yellowstone Lake, and I think there's one on the Buffalo

1558
01:31:11,960 --> 01:31:15,599
Speaker 8: Plateau too. I don't remember the archaeological record very well.

1559
01:31:15,960 --> 01:31:18,360
Speaker 8: I used to rely on my colleagues at the park

1560
01:31:19,000 --> 01:31:22,240
Speaker 8: tell me all those stories of all those cool places that, yeah,

1561
01:31:22,280 --> 01:31:26,840
Speaker 8: there's evidence that bison have been in the system for

1562
01:31:27,040 --> 01:31:31,880
Speaker 8: basically the time they migrated to around here from the Siberia.

1563
01:31:34,600 --> 01:31:38,120
Speaker 8: So I think there's room for wild bison on public

1564
01:31:38,200 --> 01:31:41,760
Speaker 8: lands outside the National Park. I think society is gonna

1565
01:31:41,800 --> 01:31:44,639
Speaker 8: have to make a few concessions learn how to live

1566
01:31:44,720 --> 01:31:49,920
Speaker 8: with wild bison. I think that it's gonna be harder

1567
01:31:50,600 --> 01:31:54,200
Speaker 8: for fish wilder parks to manage wild bison than it

1568
01:31:54,360 --> 01:31:57,519
Speaker 8: is for them to manage pronghorn and deer. So they're

1569
01:31:57,520 --> 01:32:01,719
Speaker 8: gonna have to have a source of funding to maybe

1570
01:32:01,840 --> 01:32:06,000
Speaker 8: hire you know, a couple of problem solver types fence creuse,

1571
01:32:06,080 --> 01:32:09,960
Speaker 8: the fence cruse or you know. My thought is you

1572
01:32:10,120 --> 01:32:12,879
Speaker 8: made a great point earlier when you said we restored

1573
01:32:12,960 --> 01:32:16,920
Speaker 8: grizzly bears, and we've restored wolves on the landscape, but

1574
01:32:17,080 --> 01:32:20,479
Speaker 8: we haven't restored wild bison. And the way Fish, Wilife

1575
01:32:20,520 --> 01:32:24,000
Speaker 8: and Parks manages grizzly bears and wolves is they have

1576
01:32:24,160 --> 01:32:27,720
Speaker 8: conflict resolution teams. Yeah, you know, and there's you know,

1577
01:32:27,960 --> 01:32:31,639
Speaker 8: folks out of Livingston and Bozeman that work in this area,

1578
01:32:32,160 --> 01:32:34,519
Speaker 8: all in Region one and two. They have a couple

1579
01:32:34,560 --> 01:32:38,240
Speaker 8: of different teams over there. A model like that for

1580
01:32:38,479 --> 01:32:44,560
Speaker 8: bison could help Fishwilife and Parks deal with conflict resolutions

1581
01:32:44,640 --> 01:32:48,720
Speaker 8: where conflicts occur and not just trying to draw what

1582
01:32:48,840 --> 01:32:53,080
Speaker 8: they call a tolerance zone, develop like a true conservation

1583
01:32:53,320 --> 01:33:00,240
Speaker 8: area that they manage bison within. And the staunch conservations

1584
01:33:01,160 --> 01:33:04,640
Speaker 8: that want thirty million are going to have to recognize

1585
01:33:04,720 --> 01:33:06,400
Speaker 8: that that's an impossible dream.

1586
01:33:07,400 --> 01:33:09,720
Speaker 4: That is that's way, that's a waste time.

1587
01:33:09,760 --> 01:33:13,439
Speaker 8: I'm talking about that a few hundred would be something

1588
01:33:13,520 --> 01:33:16,639
Speaker 8: that the state of Montana could pride themselves in and say, yeah,

1589
01:33:17,200 --> 01:33:20,439
Speaker 8: there's not very many places in the world where wild

1590
01:33:20,520 --> 01:33:24,120
Speaker 8: bison can roam on public lands and be managed by

1591
01:33:24,160 --> 01:33:28,440
Speaker 8: a state game agency, where you know, hunters could experience,

1592
01:33:29,240 --> 01:33:33,200
Speaker 8: you know, the same experience that their forefathers four or

1593
01:33:33,240 --> 01:33:36,720
Speaker 8: five generations ago got to experience by going out and

1594
01:33:37,400 --> 01:33:38,559
Speaker 8: harvesting wild bison.

1595
01:33:39,200 --> 01:33:42,599
Speaker 4: And I think that if you've.

1596
01:33:42,520 --> 01:33:45,920
Speaker 8: Driven around Montana very much, you'll see these signs that

1597
01:33:46,160 --> 01:33:53,240
Speaker 8: say save the cowboy, eliminate the American.

1598
01:33:52,800 --> 01:33:56,960
Speaker 1: Style, saying the cowboys stop America Prayer, which even the

1599
01:33:57,080 --> 01:33:59,680
Speaker 1: guy that runs the American Prayer Reserve has acknowledged that

1600
01:33:59,720 --> 01:34:01,200
Speaker 1: it's the genius campaign.

1601
01:34:01,760 --> 01:34:06,680
Speaker 8: It's well, it's actually he's like, it's somewhat foolish by

1602
01:34:06,800 --> 01:34:12,400
Speaker 8: my perspective, because the skills that defined the cowboy, that

1603
01:34:12,640 --> 01:34:16,559
Speaker 8: the romantic cowboy of the historic past is being able

1604
01:34:16,640 --> 01:34:20,840
Speaker 8: to ride and heard and rope and you know, deal

1605
01:34:20,960 --> 01:34:25,360
Speaker 8: with wild cattle. You know, they could preserve those skills

1606
01:34:25,439 --> 01:34:29,800
Speaker 8: by preserving wild bison, so that in reality there should

1607
01:34:29,840 --> 01:34:33,320
Speaker 8: be sort of a counter campaign to say, well, you

1608
01:34:33,439 --> 01:34:37,000
Speaker 8: can preserve the cowboy by preserving wild bison, and then

1609
01:34:37,120 --> 01:34:41,240
Speaker 8: you have preserved the skills that you know, are the

1610
01:34:41,439 --> 01:34:46,240
Speaker 8: more high end cowboys than the cowboys that ride for

1611
01:34:46,320 --> 01:34:48,479
Speaker 8: wheelers to manage their cattle.

1612
01:34:48,720 --> 01:34:52,000
Speaker 1: Curtsey, you find what episode number we had the we

1613
01:34:52,120 --> 01:34:55,759
Speaker 1: had a guest Sean Garrity who runs the American Prairie Reserve.

1614
01:34:55,880 --> 01:34:57,200
Speaker 4: Oh yes, the CEO.

1615
01:34:57,720 --> 01:35:00,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was on the podcast. So if you can

1616
01:35:00,479 --> 01:35:02,880
Speaker 1: find that Matt Kaufman stuff about migrations.

1617
01:35:03,280 --> 01:35:07,960
Speaker 11: I was on a flight yesterday coming in episode titled

1618
01:35:08,000 --> 01:35:12,200
Speaker 11: The American Prairie Reserve. That's one with Sean Garrity number

1619
01:35:12,280 --> 01:35:13,439
Speaker 11: one and what was the.

1620
01:35:13,439 --> 01:35:18,400
Speaker 1: Other one, Matt Gaufman. We had Kaufman and Kevin Monteeth.

1621
01:35:19,560 --> 01:35:20,240
Speaker 4: We recorded it.

1622
01:35:20,240 --> 01:35:21,160
Speaker 1: Down Lander.

1623
01:35:22,439 --> 01:35:24,960
Speaker 10: Landscape of Fear Landscape, so.

1624
01:35:25,080 --> 01:35:27,599
Speaker 1: American Prairie Reserve and Landscape of Fear gets into a lot.

1625
01:35:27,479 --> 01:35:28,200
Speaker 4: Of these same issues.

1626
01:35:28,240 --> 01:35:31,720
Speaker 7: But I'm sorry, Oh, it's just my flight yesterday was

1627
01:35:31,760 --> 01:35:37,400
Speaker 7: full of cowboys, full of calbo. Yeah, little kids with hats,

1628
01:35:37,479 --> 01:35:41,680
Speaker 7: people in track suits with hats, all converging on the

1629
01:35:41,720 --> 01:35:43,519
Speaker 7: cowboy capital of the world, Big sky.

1630
01:35:45,439 --> 01:35:45,919
Speaker 1: Cowboys.

1631
01:35:45,960 --> 01:35:50,120
Speaker 4: And that's right, that's right.

1632
01:35:51,960 --> 01:35:54,080
Speaker 1: I had some thought about the Oh what I was

1633
01:35:54,160 --> 01:35:57,320
Speaker 1: gonna say about the and the America Prairie Reserve is

1634
01:35:57,400 --> 01:36:05,080
Speaker 1: not without its own controvert as. I recommend that people

1635
01:36:05,120 --> 01:36:09,160
Speaker 1: listen to the episode. There's so much going on there.

1636
01:36:09,200 --> 01:36:11,479
Speaker 1: It's a whole other conversation. But at one hand, it's

1637
01:36:11,800 --> 01:36:14,120
Speaker 1: you know, it's an organization that buys land on the

1638
01:36:14,200 --> 01:36:16,560
Speaker 1: open market, yep. And what they choose to do with

1639
01:36:16,600 --> 01:36:18,240
Speaker 1: the land they buy on the open market is try

1640
01:36:18,280 --> 01:36:23,240
Speaker 1: to restore the great planes and try to restore bison. Okay,

1641
01:36:23,320 --> 01:36:26,479
Speaker 1: so there's like there's that end of it. There's another

1642
01:36:26,640 --> 01:36:30,320
Speaker 1: end of it of people looking at a real threat

1643
01:36:30,400 --> 01:36:34,560
Speaker 1: of reduced area to hunt on because a fear that

1644
01:36:34,680 --> 01:36:38,000
Speaker 1: the APR's ultimate objective is to create a national park,

1645
01:36:38,600 --> 01:36:41,719
Speaker 1: which would you know, eliminate a lot of hunting opportunity.

1646
01:36:41,720 --> 01:36:44,479
Speaker 1: It's a really rich subject. But Garretty had an interesting

1647
01:36:44,560 --> 01:36:47,040
Speaker 1: point is, you know, they're talking about having like three

1648
01:36:47,120 --> 01:36:51,479
Speaker 1: or four thousand buffalo and and he was talking about

1649
01:36:51,520 --> 01:36:56,720
Speaker 1: the friction between the APR and the cattle industry in Montana, right,

1650
01:36:56,880 --> 01:36:59,479
Speaker 1: and he was putting it in numbers. He says, there

1651
01:36:59,520 --> 01:37:05,759
Speaker 1: are two million cows in Montana. Wow, I'm talking about

1652
01:37:05,800 --> 01:37:09,880
Speaker 1: three thousand buffalo. You know, there's a couple of there's

1653
01:37:09,880 --> 01:37:15,280
Speaker 1: a couple of just this has gotten yeah, reallysize absolutely absolutely.

1654
01:37:15,360 --> 01:37:17,479
Speaker 8: There's a couple of things that I really like about

1655
01:37:17,560 --> 01:37:22,360
Speaker 8: APR that have some applicability to the greater Yellowstone Area.

1656
01:37:22,439 --> 01:37:25,160
Speaker 4: And one of them is that they've.

1657
01:37:25,840 --> 01:37:30,960
Speaker 8: They've developed a sort of a subsidiary connection to a

1658
01:37:31,080 --> 01:37:38,000
Speaker 8: cattle raising paradigm where they're they're generating money to pay

1659
01:37:38,120 --> 01:37:41,000
Speaker 8: ranchers to be more tolerant of wildlife on their lands

1660
01:37:42,040 --> 01:37:46,639
Speaker 8: and potentially pay them more for the cost of each

1661
01:37:46,800 --> 01:37:50,760
Speaker 8: pound of beef that they raise, so that, you know,

1662
01:37:51,200 --> 01:37:55,400
Speaker 8: the conscious American citizen that really wants to preserve wildlife

1663
01:37:56,120 --> 01:38:00,320
Speaker 8: and doesn't buy guns and doesn't buy ammunition and doesn't

1664
01:38:00,360 --> 01:38:05,280
Speaker 8: contribute to conservation dollars anywhere else, could contribute to conservation

1665
01:38:05,479 --> 01:38:09,720
Speaker 8: dollars by buying beef from those farmers and ranchers that

1666
01:38:09,840 --> 01:38:13,400
Speaker 8: are wildlife friendly. And if there was someone willing to

1667
01:38:13,520 --> 01:38:20,000
Speaker 8: develop a franchise around here, I bet there's enough you know,

1668
01:38:20,840 --> 01:38:24,960
Speaker 8: committed conservationists that would do the same thing and buy

1669
01:38:25,080 --> 01:38:28,600
Speaker 8: products from a company that's paying farmers and ranchers to

1670
01:38:28,680 --> 01:38:34,000
Speaker 8: live in the Greater Yellowstone ecosystem and learn to build

1671
01:38:34,040 --> 01:38:37,760
Speaker 8: bigger fences, you know, build a way that during the

1672
01:38:38,320 --> 01:38:41,479
Speaker 8: infection period of bruce losis to move all their cattle

1673
01:38:41,560 --> 01:38:45,320
Speaker 8: to the high fence area and then preserve you know,

1674
01:38:45,720 --> 01:38:48,479
Speaker 8: a place for wild animals to move across, you know,

1675
01:38:48,960 --> 01:38:51,640
Speaker 8: twenty five or thirty percent of their property that the

1676
01:38:51,680 --> 01:38:54,559
Speaker 8: cattle don't go to during that sort of critical time

1677
01:38:54,640 --> 01:38:58,839
Speaker 8: period for infection spread. And the other thing about American

1678
01:38:58,920 --> 01:39:02,639
Speaker 8: prairie is by turning it into some sort of national

1679
01:39:02,760 --> 01:39:09,400
Speaker 8: park they could generate the kind of rules and regulations. See,

1680
01:39:09,840 --> 01:39:13,040
Speaker 8: national parks are enabled by Congress, and each are unique

1681
01:39:13,640 --> 01:39:17,040
Speaker 8: in their you know, commitment to what they do for

1682
01:39:17,160 --> 01:39:20,639
Speaker 8: the landscape where they're at, and like granted down National

1683
01:39:20,720 --> 01:39:23,960
Speaker 8: Park when they established that National Park, and there's a

1684
01:39:24,080 --> 01:39:27,680
Speaker 8: handful of them around the system. They preserve hunting in

1685
01:39:27,800 --> 01:39:30,639
Speaker 8: a proportion a proportion of the national park. An American

1686
01:39:30,680 --> 01:39:31,880
Speaker 8: prairie could do the same thing.

1687
01:39:31,960 --> 01:39:35,120
Speaker 4: I don't think they will. You don't think they will, No, interesting, No,

1688
01:39:35,360 --> 01:39:37,320
Speaker 4: I think I think that they have.

1689
01:39:39,600 --> 01:39:41,680
Speaker 1: Somewhat of a begrudging relationship with it.

1690
01:39:42,000 --> 01:39:43,640
Speaker 4: That's a personal pang okay. I think they have a

1691
01:39:43,720 --> 01:39:44,679
Speaker 4: begrudging relationship.

1692
01:39:45,040 --> 01:39:45,600
Speaker 8: I I.

1693
01:39:48,240 --> 01:39:49,720
Speaker 7: We kind of touched a little bit on like the

1694
01:39:49,800 --> 01:39:55,720
Speaker 7: societal tolerance of the hunting and being up there and

1695
01:39:55,840 --> 01:39:58,120
Speaker 7: kind of watching the gardener scene when it was really

1696
01:39:58,200 --> 01:40:01,840
Speaker 7: going off right right, there's buffalo crap all over the

1697
01:40:02,080 --> 01:40:03,280
Speaker 7: high school football field.

1698
01:40:03,479 --> 01:40:06,040
Speaker 3: Man, you know, I.

1699
01:40:07,560 --> 01:40:14,200
Speaker 7: Was just like, well, why not allow a certain amount

1700
01:40:14,439 --> 01:40:20,880
Speaker 7: of tribal hunting within the park boundary? Expand the hunt

1701
01:40:21,280 --> 01:40:25,400
Speaker 7: that way to you know, a very specific group of

1702
01:40:25,439 --> 01:40:30,479
Speaker 7: people that have the longest relationship with they're already you know,

1703
01:40:30,640 --> 01:40:34,559
Speaker 7: highly regulated there. Each tribe, each hunting group has their

1704
01:40:34,600 --> 01:40:35,880
Speaker 7: own game worden with them.

1705
01:40:36,120 --> 01:40:36,320
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1706
01:40:37,320 --> 01:40:38,680
Speaker 1: I was talking about this with my kid the other

1707
01:40:38,800 --> 01:40:40,760
Speaker 1: day and I was saying to him and I'm not

1708
01:40:40,840 --> 01:40:43,400
Speaker 1: sure on the I'm not sure on all the treaty

1709
01:40:43,439 --> 01:40:46,000
Speaker 1: of regulations, but I don't know that a lot of

1710
01:40:46,040 --> 01:40:49,519
Speaker 1: the people that signed under the Stevens Treaty, that those

1711
01:40:49,600 --> 01:40:51,240
Speaker 1: tribes wouldn't even be able to make the claim that

1712
01:40:51,280 --> 01:40:51,960
Speaker 1: they could hunt.

1713
01:40:51,840 --> 01:40:52,680
Speaker 4: The park if they wanted to.

1714
01:40:53,600 --> 01:40:56,120
Speaker 7: It came too late for the treaty or just him.

1715
01:40:56,040 --> 01:40:58,400
Speaker 1: I'm saying that people that were under that treaty, there's

1716
01:40:58,479 --> 01:41:00,759
Speaker 1: language in that treaty that I think there's an argument

1717
01:41:00,800 --> 01:41:02,800
Speaker 1: that the tribes could make in the argument that that

1718
01:41:03,000 --> 01:41:04,280
Speaker 1: I have every right to hunt the park.

1719
01:41:05,000 --> 01:41:07,320
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, And but and then there's a

1720
01:41:07,400 --> 01:41:11,680
Speaker 7: handful that would not under the same language, right right,

1721
01:41:11,720 --> 01:41:15,040
Speaker 7: because they weren't historically in that specific area.

1722
01:41:15,760 --> 01:41:16,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that the.

1723
01:41:18,760 --> 01:41:21,400
Speaker 8: The thing that prohibits them from going into the National

1724
01:41:21,520 --> 01:41:25,000
Speaker 8: Park is that their treaties have a language. And I

1725
01:41:25,040 --> 01:41:27,680
Speaker 8: don't remember it specifically, but it has something to do

1726
01:41:27,880 --> 01:41:33,080
Speaker 8: with claimed versus open and I'm claimed, Yeah, which is which?

1727
01:41:33,240 --> 01:41:36,599
Speaker 1: If you which part there's nothing now that's open and unclaims.

1728
01:41:36,640 --> 01:41:38,760
Speaker 1: So there's a there's like what does that exactly mean?

1729
01:41:39,640 --> 01:41:44,360
Speaker 7: And we've determined that it's it's I federally managed land,

1730
01:41:44,720 --> 01:41:48,519
Speaker 7: not state land, not Montana state land specifically, and somehow

1731
01:41:48,600 --> 01:41:51,200
Speaker 7: not the park and somehow not, but it's the National Forest.

1732
01:41:51,680 --> 01:41:55,080
Speaker 8: I think they've determined that the National Force fits that category.

1733
01:41:55,240 --> 01:41:58,040
Speaker 4: I know, and I would argue, based on no evidence,

1734
01:41:58,080 --> 01:41:58,800
Speaker 4: is so does the park.

1735
01:42:01,000 --> 01:42:04,640
Speaker 8: Well, it's it's claimed by Congress as a pleasure and

1736
01:42:04,720 --> 01:42:07,680
Speaker 8: ground for humans. You know, if you look at the

1737
01:42:07,880 --> 01:42:10,480
Speaker 8: enabling legislation of National Parks.

1738
01:42:10,400 --> 01:42:12,679
Speaker 4: And it was designated what you're seventy seven or something

1739
01:42:12,720 --> 01:42:17,000
Speaker 4: like that, No, eighteen seventy two? Was it seventy two? Yeah?

1740
01:42:18,000 --> 01:42:21,559
Speaker 4: So yeah, you know, I think you know you don't

1741
01:42:21,600 --> 01:42:23,000
Speaker 4: like that idea. I don't like that idea.

1742
01:42:23,080 --> 01:42:26,200
Speaker 8: I can tell I don't like that idea because the

1743
01:42:26,680 --> 01:42:31,080
Speaker 8: issue really is if we did it in the Boundary

1744
01:42:31,160 --> 01:42:35,040
Speaker 8: Lands area, there are some concessions that I think you

1745
01:42:35,080 --> 01:42:38,280
Speaker 8: could figure out how to do it. But what my

1746
01:42:38,600 --> 01:42:41,240
Speaker 8: argument is, if you do it in the National Park

1747
01:42:41,360 --> 01:42:47,400
Speaker 8: without and qualifying it, then what's to say it's not justified?

1748
01:42:47,439 --> 01:42:52,080
Speaker 8: In Lamar Valley or in Hayden Valley, and I think

1749
01:42:52,200 --> 01:42:56,360
Speaker 8: that hunting disrupts sort of this natural ecology of the

1750
01:42:56,439 --> 01:43:01,439
Speaker 8: system that it could it could create chaos, you know,

1751
01:43:01,640 --> 01:43:04,080
Speaker 8: and if you went there to hunt, then they might

1752
01:43:04,200 --> 01:43:05,559
Speaker 8: just scatter to the wind.

1753
01:43:06,160 --> 01:43:08,840
Speaker 1: I'm only looking. I'm only bringing that subject up, and

1754
01:43:08,920 --> 01:43:11,760
Speaker 1: it's like, to me, it's like it's a legal question, right,

1755
01:43:12,200 --> 01:43:15,240
Speaker 1: And I'm not advocating one way or the other. I'm

1756
01:43:15,280 --> 01:43:17,720
Speaker 1: just saying it's an interesting legal question that at some

1757
01:43:17,880 --> 01:43:21,200
Speaker 1: point in time in the future a tribe wouldn't say,

1758
01:43:22,960 --> 01:43:25,479
Speaker 1: we're going to go exercise what we understand to be

1759
01:43:25,560 --> 01:43:28,280
Speaker 1: our treaty rights. We're going to go exercise them, and

1760
01:43:28,320 --> 01:43:30,040
Speaker 1: if you'd like to arrest us, this is where we'll

1761
01:43:30,040 --> 01:43:30,599
Speaker 1: be on Monday.

1762
01:43:30,800 --> 01:43:33,679
Speaker 8: Yeah, the Crow Nation probably has the you know, most

1763
01:43:34,960 --> 01:43:36,479
Speaker 8: opportunity to be and.

1764
01:43:36,479 --> 01:43:38,560
Speaker 1: Then then they would be in this situation of like,

1765
01:43:38,640 --> 01:43:41,200
Speaker 1: are we really going to go arrest a bunch of

1766
01:43:41,280 --> 01:43:43,040
Speaker 1: crow right for hunting?

1767
01:43:43,240 --> 01:43:43,360
Speaker 4: Right?

1768
01:43:43,479 --> 01:43:46,639
Speaker 8: Well, they've been known to push other, you know, tribal

1769
01:43:46,680 --> 01:43:48,960
Speaker 8: treaty rights kinds of issues, So it.

1770
01:43:49,040 --> 01:43:51,839
Speaker 7: Could be a heck of an educational program within the park.

1771
01:43:52,520 --> 01:43:53,040
Speaker 3: Just to watch.

1772
01:43:54,040 --> 01:43:55,920
Speaker 1: When people used to go to watch the Civil War

1773
01:43:56,000 --> 01:43:58,280
Speaker 1: battles like you watch on the sidelines. I'd go down

1774
01:43:58,320 --> 01:43:59,040
Speaker 1: here to watch.

1775
01:43:59,320 --> 01:44:00,320
Speaker 4: Well the gardener win.

1776
01:44:00,760 --> 01:44:03,599
Speaker 8: The Gardener Basin was an extension, so it's not actually

1777
01:44:03,720 --> 01:44:06,840
Speaker 8: part of the original National Park. And I want to

1778
01:44:06,920 --> 01:44:12,519
Speaker 8: say the original National Park boundary was Josh really close

1779
01:44:12,600 --> 01:44:16,600
Speaker 8: to the where the Arches Gardener got. And at some

1780
01:44:16,800 --> 01:44:22,519
Speaker 8: point in time there was this program to pay farmers

1781
01:44:23,040 --> 01:44:26,480
Speaker 8: market value for their land because they weren't very productive.

1782
01:44:27,160 --> 01:44:28,240
Speaker 4: And I don't remember if.

1783
01:44:28,280 --> 01:44:30,240
Speaker 8: I think it was in the nineteen twenties or nineteen

1784
01:44:30,280 --> 01:44:31,240
Speaker 8: thirties or something like that.

1785
01:44:31,960 --> 01:44:35,120
Speaker 1: Again, I'm not advocating for that. What I am advocating

1786
01:44:35,200 --> 01:44:42,280
Speaker 1: is for this because we're running out of time. I

1787
01:44:42,520 --> 01:44:44,760
Speaker 1: don't know how to do it. I think we need

1788
01:44:44,840 --> 01:44:48,240
Speaker 1: to find I don't know how to do it. I

1789
01:44:48,320 --> 01:44:53,000
Speaker 1: think we need to find a way to have Buffalo

1790
01:44:53,120 --> 01:44:56,280
Speaker 1: on our federally managed public lands, public lands. I don't

1791
01:44:56,280 --> 01:44:57,760
Speaker 1: think it should cost the ranchers money.

1792
01:44:57,920 --> 01:44:58,360
Speaker 4: I agree.

1793
01:44:58,800 --> 01:45:00,960
Speaker 1: I agree, like I don't it should cost them money.

1794
01:45:01,000 --> 01:45:03,680
Speaker 1: I don't think it should cost them business. I think

1795
01:45:03,720 --> 01:45:04,840
Speaker 1: that we should find a way to do it.

1796
01:45:05,360 --> 01:45:08,439
Speaker 4: I agree. And it's like I just cannot accept that

1797
01:45:08,439 --> 01:45:09,680
Speaker 4: there's not a way to sort this out.

1798
01:45:10,640 --> 01:45:13,639
Speaker 1: I think there is, but in the money will follow,

1799
01:45:13,760 --> 01:45:16,200
Speaker 1: and I think that sportsman, like I think that sportsmen

1800
01:45:16,280 --> 01:45:19,800
Speaker 1: need to the same way sportsmen demanded bringing back big

1801
01:45:19,840 --> 01:45:23,639
Speaker 1: orange sheet, the same way sportsmen demanded and funded bringing

1802
01:45:23,720 --> 01:45:26,439
Speaker 1: back out in some cases black bears. I mean all

1803
01:45:26,439 --> 01:45:30,040
Speaker 1: around the country. Absolutely, sportsmen demanded it, paid for it,

1804
01:45:30,439 --> 01:45:33,280
Speaker 1: worked for it. I just don't see why hunters are

1805
01:45:33,360 --> 01:45:35,960
Speaker 1: not saying, let's take a look at this and let's

1806
01:45:36,000 --> 01:45:38,040
Speaker 1: make it be that it doesn't It doesn't need to

1807
01:45:38,080 --> 01:45:40,479
Speaker 1: cripple the livestock industry there. I mean, there has to

1808
01:45:40,560 --> 01:45:42,400
Speaker 1: be a way, but I don't know what it is.

1809
01:45:43,240 --> 01:45:46,960
Speaker 8: I think we need some creative minds from all industries

1810
01:45:47,400 --> 01:45:51,679
Speaker 8: and perspectives to get together and give them a directive

1811
01:45:51,760 --> 01:45:54,559
Speaker 8: that you have to find a solution. You can't argue,

1812
01:45:55,120 --> 01:46:02,400
Speaker 8: you know, your your heartfelt perspective. I agree completely, and

1813
01:46:03,160 --> 01:46:05,280
Speaker 8: I don't think it needs to go all the way

1814
01:46:05,360 --> 01:46:10,280
Speaker 8: to Interstate ninety, even if that designated Brush Los zone does,

1815
01:46:11,800 --> 01:46:16,120
Speaker 8: because then the level of difficulty is dramatically greater.

1816
01:46:16,439 --> 01:46:20,840
Speaker 1: And maybe maybe the park, maybe the Yellow Sunaria, is

1817
01:46:20,920 --> 01:46:23,960
Speaker 1: not the place to do it, that's a possibility. Maybe

1818
01:46:24,000 --> 01:46:27,920
Speaker 1: the place to do it is the uh, somewhere in

1819
01:46:27,960 --> 01:46:28,240
Speaker 1: the break.

1820
01:46:28,280 --> 01:46:28,560
Speaker 3: I don't know.

1821
01:46:28,600 --> 01:46:32,240
Speaker 4: I don't know, I don't know. I think American word

1822
01:46:32,560 --> 01:46:33,920
Speaker 4: maybe it's somewhere to do it in the breaks. I

1823
01:46:34,120 --> 01:46:36,519
Speaker 4: like it. But the America Prey Reserve thing doesn't scratch

1824
01:46:36,600 --> 01:46:37,040
Speaker 4: my itch.

1825
01:46:37,240 --> 01:46:40,680
Speaker 8: That's a probable. It's a private enterprise. It is a

1826
01:46:40,720 --> 01:46:44,040
Speaker 8: private enterprise right now. But yeah, as far as the

1827
01:46:44,200 --> 01:46:45,000
Speaker 8: term vision.

1828
01:46:44,840 --> 01:46:48,360
Speaker 7: For landscapes, right, it's like, if we're talking about federally

1829
01:46:48,439 --> 01:46:52,560
Speaker 7: managed lands, then we're talking about either voluntary or some

1830
01:46:52,760 --> 01:46:56,240
Speaker 7: sort of large incentive program to buy out grazing leases

1831
01:46:56,400 --> 01:47:00,840
Speaker 7: right that are active. And and then the other thing

1832
01:47:01,160 --> 01:47:06,800
Speaker 7: is like landscape fragmentation. Like there's just so many obstacles

1833
01:47:07,439 --> 01:47:10,120
Speaker 7: around the federally managed lands that we have here in

1834
01:47:10,520 --> 01:47:14,400
Speaker 7: western Montana, which with guarantee, if you talk to all

1835
01:47:14,439 --> 01:47:17,400
Speaker 7: the people that were coming off the plane yesterday, is

1836
01:47:17,479 --> 01:47:20,720
Speaker 7: like the wild West, Like there's it's wide open out here, right,

1837
01:47:21,760 --> 01:47:24,280
Speaker 7: and it's just not right. So if we're going to

1838
01:47:24,360 --> 01:47:25,519
Speaker 7: do it, we gotta do it fast.

1839
01:47:25,920 --> 01:47:32,240
Speaker 1: Alaska now has five Alaska now has I think five herds.

1840
01:47:32,600 --> 01:47:33,120
Speaker 4: Oh uh huh.

1841
01:47:33,680 --> 01:47:36,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, they got the copper herd, yep, the Farewell Burn herd,

1842
01:47:37,840 --> 01:47:41,200
Speaker 1: the Delta Junction herd the Yukon Flats heard.

1843
01:47:42,920 --> 01:47:45,559
Speaker 8: And at least one or two of mary annual northern

1844
01:47:45,560 --> 01:47:47,600
Speaker 8: buffalo one one okay.

1845
01:47:47,760 --> 01:47:48,479
Speaker 10: Is hunting a lot.

1846
01:47:49,600 --> 01:47:52,200
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you can't hunt the you can't hunt the

1847
01:47:52,240 --> 01:47:54,160
Speaker 1: wood buffalo one that they just got going. But the

1848
01:47:54,240 --> 01:47:57,000
Speaker 1: intention is to the intention is that you will be

1849
01:47:57,080 --> 01:47:59,800
Speaker 1: able to. And that's how they got local buy in

1850
01:48:00,720 --> 01:48:05,200
Speaker 1: with Native Alaskans. But all their herds, their source herd

1851
01:48:05,439 --> 01:48:08,960
Speaker 1: was their source herd was National bis Arrange in Montana,

1852
01:48:10,320 --> 01:48:12,439
Speaker 1: and they turned them. They brought a bunch to Delta

1853
01:48:12,479 --> 01:48:14,320
Speaker 1: Junction and let them trickle out here and there. And

1854
01:48:14,400 --> 01:48:17,000
Speaker 1: now they have these four I think it's four, they

1855
01:48:17,040 --> 01:48:19,599
Speaker 1: have four managed hunts, and then they have a wood

1856
01:48:19,640 --> 01:48:20,559
Speaker 1: buffalo population.

1857
01:48:20,720 --> 01:48:21,759
Speaker 4: And whether or not wood.

1858
01:48:21,600 --> 01:48:24,840
Speaker 1: Buffalo are actually different as this whole conversation for geneticists

1859
01:48:24,840 --> 01:48:27,760
Speaker 1: to argue about. But they have this other herd they're

1860
01:48:27,840 --> 01:48:30,559
Speaker 1: establishing there that has the potential to be that has

1861
01:48:30,640 --> 01:48:35,559
Speaker 1: the potential to be three four thousand animals, And again,

1862
01:48:35,880 --> 01:48:39,080
Speaker 1: why is that possible? It's possible, Like you know, there's

1863
01:48:39,200 --> 01:48:41,759
Speaker 1: a I don't want to insult anyone that has livestock

1864
01:48:41,760 --> 01:48:45,800
Speaker 1: in Alaska. There's effectively not a livestock industry and much

1865
01:48:45,840 --> 01:48:49,559
Speaker 1: of Alaska they run them as managed hunts. People are

1866
01:48:49,640 --> 01:48:53,519
Speaker 1: very enthusiastic. Like you know, at draw time, everybody fills

1867
01:48:53,560 --> 01:48:56,639
Speaker 1: out their thing to win a chance to hunt. I've

1868
01:48:56,720 --> 01:48:59,920
Speaker 1: done it. My brother Danny just threw his social circle

1869
01:49:00,000 --> 01:49:03,559
Speaker 1: has gone like six or seven times on bison hunts,

1870
01:49:03,600 --> 01:49:04,720
Speaker 1: not just him holding the tag, with.

1871
01:49:04,760 --> 01:49:05,840
Speaker 4: Bodies of his hold the tag.

1872
01:49:05,920 --> 01:49:08,320
Speaker 1: It's just a part of Yes, it was brought in.

1873
01:49:08,439 --> 01:49:11,920
Speaker 1: It's like they're here, they're not necessarily from here. They

1874
01:49:11,960 --> 01:49:14,720
Speaker 1: don't have they don't have an adversary. They don't have

1875
01:49:14,800 --> 01:49:17,479
Speaker 1: a human adversary. That's right, And they have a lot

1876
01:49:17,520 --> 01:49:19,200
Speaker 1: of public buy in because the hunts are cool.

1877
01:49:19,680 --> 01:49:22,639
Speaker 10: Has anyone at this table got harvested a bison other

1878
01:49:22,760 --> 01:49:25,160
Speaker 10: than you? Because I know Randall's wife Sydney has a

1879
01:49:26,320 --> 01:49:27,760
Speaker 10: we're gonna we're gonna go to the.

1880
01:49:27,840 --> 01:49:30,320
Speaker 5: PR We're gonna go up to the APR in January

1881
01:49:30,400 --> 01:49:31,439
Speaker 5: and very cool.

1882
01:49:31,600 --> 01:49:34,240
Speaker 4: My wife's got a management tag for that hurt.

1883
01:49:34,320 --> 01:49:38,599
Speaker 3: And then you've had it, I Drew Gardner and West Yellowstone.

1884
01:49:38,280 --> 01:49:41,280
Speaker 10: But you haven't harvested what it takes. And then Chili

1885
01:49:41,320 --> 01:49:41,879
Speaker 10: has got.

1886
01:49:41,760 --> 01:49:43,360
Speaker 3: This, have the snow, we'll.

1887
01:49:44,880 --> 01:49:45,599
Speaker 10: Do you have gardener?

1888
01:49:46,360 --> 01:49:49,639
Speaker 4: I have gardener. Yeah, you've got gardner right now? This winter,

1889
01:49:50,000 --> 01:49:51,320
Speaker 4: this winter? All right, let's talk.

1890
01:49:51,560 --> 01:49:57,519
Speaker 1: All right, yeah, pretty quiet. I've already met one guy.

1891
01:49:57,720 --> 01:50:02,160
Speaker 1: Don't show don't show them your st Wait, we should

1892
01:50:02,200 --> 01:50:04,479
Speaker 1: all go get in here from the other direction.

1893
01:50:05,479 --> 01:50:08,800
Speaker 6: I've I've been really quiet because I'm like, there's so

1894
01:50:08,880 --> 01:50:11,720
Speaker 6: much I want to know, just like, because you're very

1895
01:50:11,760 --> 01:50:14,920
Speaker 6: familiar with the area, I'm not. But I also met

1896
01:50:14,960 --> 01:50:17,479
Speaker 6: a guy in Bozeman that's like, yeah, I got the

1897
01:50:17,520 --> 01:50:18,120
Speaker 6: same tag, and.

1898
01:50:18,120 --> 01:50:19,519
Speaker 1: I don't want to put it on podcasts.

1899
01:50:19,560 --> 01:50:22,080
Speaker 4: So yeah, Chili a veteran, so give.

1900
01:50:24,080 --> 01:50:24,400
Speaker 1: Veterance.

1901
01:50:24,640 --> 01:50:28,320
Speaker 8: So we're going to get along famously perfect branch Us Army.

1902
01:50:28,400 --> 01:50:29,479
Speaker 4: I'm an artillery ment.

1903
01:50:30,760 --> 01:50:35,439
Speaker 14: You guys gonna have that little army connections, Marine Corps,

1904
01:50:37,080 --> 01:50:39,880
Speaker 14: raised the Marines, and I talk about Cowardice a lot

1905
01:50:40,600 --> 01:50:42,280
Speaker 14: our shared connection.

1906
01:50:44,840 --> 01:50:49,519
Speaker 1: You know, you didn't to defend your country either, becase

1907
01:50:49,600 --> 01:50:51,720
Speaker 1: you guys war dodgers, and.

1908
01:50:53,160 --> 01:50:56,160
Speaker 8: Well, harvesting a wild bison, they're harvesting any kind of

1909
01:50:56,240 --> 01:50:59,439
Speaker 8: bison gives you the opportunity to teach the next generation

1910
01:50:59,640 --> 01:51:02,920
Speaker 8: a lot of lessons, Yeah, a lot of lessons. So

1911
01:51:03,160 --> 01:51:04,960
Speaker 8: I mean, I took my son out to the Green

1912
01:51:05,040 --> 01:51:08,599
Speaker 8: Ranch out on the Madison to Harvest to Buffalo twenty

1913
01:51:08,720 --> 01:51:09,120
Speaker 8: years ago.

1914
01:51:09,640 --> 01:51:11,400
Speaker 4: We had a grand time. Took us a bit a

1915
01:51:11,479 --> 01:51:11,920
Speaker 4: long time.

1916
01:51:12,439 --> 01:51:14,639
Speaker 6: Yeah, That's why I'm super excited about this shign because,

1917
01:51:14,680 --> 01:51:17,120
Speaker 6: like I grew up in South Dakota and a lot

1918
01:51:17,160 --> 01:51:20,640
Speaker 6: of buffalo history there too. Yeah, and my dad never

1919
01:51:20,720 --> 01:51:23,160
Speaker 6: did it, but he always talked about like buffalo hunts

1920
01:51:23,160 --> 01:51:25,680
Speaker 6: and old timers that he knew going on them, And

1921
01:51:25,800 --> 01:51:28,439
Speaker 6: so I think this is probably the closest thing I'd

1922
01:51:28,479 --> 01:51:30,560
Speaker 6: ever get to doing something like that, you know.

1923
01:51:30,680 --> 01:51:32,600
Speaker 4: And so that's why I'm kind of.

1924
01:51:33,320 --> 01:51:40,479
Speaker 8: And I don't discredit places like the Custer State Park

1925
01:51:40,600 --> 01:51:46,120
Speaker 8: because you know, it's it's sort of canned, but again,

1926
01:51:46,439 --> 01:51:49,280
Speaker 8: it provides the it's a large enough landscape that it

1927
01:51:49,360 --> 01:51:56,680
Speaker 8: provides the opportunity to experience what our ancestors could have experienced.

1928
01:51:57,760 --> 01:52:02,320
Speaker 5: When Sydney drew her tag, I texted Dan Flores and

1929
01:52:02,400 --> 01:52:03,800
Speaker 5: I just told him, you know, we're going to be

1930
01:52:04,280 --> 01:52:09,040
Speaker 5: buffalo hunting in January. And his response was like, that's fantastic, Randal.

1931
01:52:09,360 --> 01:52:12,439
Speaker 5: I can't think of a more a single, more historical

1932
01:52:12,600 --> 01:52:15,040
Speaker 5: act that you could do on the Great Planes.

1933
01:52:16,920 --> 01:52:17,320
Speaker 3: That's right.

1934
01:52:18,200 --> 01:52:20,280
Speaker 4: So that was like a really funny way of putting.

1935
01:52:20,760 --> 01:52:23,519
Speaker 4: I mean, it's hard to argue with it. Yep. Yeah.

1936
01:52:23,800 --> 01:52:26,519
Speaker 1: Uh Rick Wallen, thanks for joining, man.

1937
01:52:26,520 --> 01:52:28,000
Speaker 4: I appreciate all your insights.

1938
01:52:28,200 --> 01:52:30,400
Speaker 8: I admire all you guys. Keep up the good way.

1939
01:52:31,960 --> 01:52:32,800
Speaker 4: Thank you, thank you,