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Speaker 1: So this all started back in February, and obviously everyone

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Speaker 1: remembers when Brian Flores came out and made public his

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Speaker 1: lawsuit against the league, and in the aftermath, Hugh Jackson

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Speaker 1: had tweeted some cryptic things. Hugh had implied that something

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Speaker 1: similar happened with the Browns. But when he made that claim,

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Speaker 1: that's when the NFL first opened their investigation. On the

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Speaker 1: special bonus episode of Sports Illustrated Weekly, former Brown's head

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Speaker 1: coach Hugh Jackson claimed the organization misled him during the

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Speaker 1: hiring process and set out to intentionally lose games. On Monday,

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Speaker 1: the NFL said its internal investigation of those allegations found

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Speaker 1: quote no evidence to substantiate the accusations. But while the

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Speaker 1: NFL publicly stated that an NFL team did nothing wrong,

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Speaker 1: according to the investigation, that doesn't necessarily mean the Browns

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Speaker 1: didn't do what Jackson said they did. As I staffers

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Speaker 1: Gary Grambling and Connor or from the Monday Morning Quarterback

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Speaker 1: reviewed more than one thousand pages of documents pertaining to

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Speaker 1: the allegations made by Jackson, they joined me to discuss

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Speaker 1: the information they uncovered, how the Browns allegedly tanked and

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Speaker 1: what it all means it's Tuesday, May three. I'm your

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Speaker 1: host John Gonzalez from Sports Illustrated and I Heart Radio.

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Speaker 1: This is Sports Illustrated Weekly. Hi, and we'll Selivan side

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Speaker 1: the NFL Network news room with breaking news out of Cleveland.

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Speaker 1: The Browns have fired head coach Hugh Jackson. This according

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Speaker 1: to NFL Network inside or Ian Rappaport, Hugh was putting

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Speaker 1: a pretty difficult position his first two years with the

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Speaker 1: talent we had, and we felt like he deserved a

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Speaker 1: chance of the third year, and unfortunately it didn't work

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Speaker 1: out the way we all hoped it would. Former Brown's

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Speaker 1: coach Hugh Jackson has added his voice to this conversation.

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Speaker 1: What did he have to say? Basically, they said that

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Speaker 1: something similar happened with the Browns, that that Hugh was

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Speaker 1: paid to lose games in ten those seasons resulted in

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Speaker 1: back to back number one overall picked. Jimmy Haslum, brown

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Speaker 1: Z owner, responding to Hugh Jackson's allegations he was paid

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Speaker 1: to lose games, has until the Knoxville News Sentinel, Hugh

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Speaker 1: Jackson has never ever accepted any responsibility for our record

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Speaker 1: during that time period. He's been masterful at pointing fingers,

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Speaker 1: but has never accepted any blame. Garry Grambling and Connor

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Speaker 1: or Welcome to Sports Illustrator Weekly. Good to be here.

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Speaker 1: You guys. Uh A lot is going on with the Browns.

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Speaker 1: You guys are in the mix of this. You reviewed

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Speaker 1: more than a thousand pages of documents related to Hugh

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Speaker 1: Jackson accusing the Browns of tanking. There's just so much

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Speaker 1: going on here. I want to go back to the beginning.

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Speaker 1: When do we first hear that the Browns were suspected

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Speaker 1: of intentionally losing games? So this all started back in February,

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Speaker 1: And obviously everyone remembers when Brian Flores came out and

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Speaker 1: made public his lawsuit against the league, and in the aftermath,

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Speaker 1: Huge Xon had tweeted some cryptic things, maybe one would

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Speaker 1: say piggybacking off of Brian Flores his claim that Stephen

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Speaker 1: Ross allegedly had offered him one hundred thousand dollars per

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Speaker 1: loss with the Dolphins, and Hugh had implied that something

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Speaker 1: similar happened with the Browns. He clarified a little bit

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Speaker 1: as that week went on, but when he made that claim,

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Speaker 1: that's when the NFL first opened their investigation. It's also

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Speaker 1: when we first opened our investigation into this and and

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Speaker 1: started to gather some information and figure out exactly what

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Speaker 1: was going on and what exactly Hugh was talking about,

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Speaker 1: and then we can get into it later. Because of

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Speaker 1: a release agreement he signed, he is not really free

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Speaker 1: to talk about this publicly. Connor, how much can you

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Speaker 1: tell us about these documents that you guys gathered in

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Speaker 1: that process when you go through the process of fighting

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Speaker 1: against the NFL via this secretive arbitration process. These are

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Speaker 1: the documents that you tried to present, right and tried

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Speaker 1: to back up your case the st that you would

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Speaker 1: want people to know in terms of what is your

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Speaker 1: reasoning for believing that you were missled misrepresented by the

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Speaker 1: terms of your deal, and what kind of evidence do

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Speaker 1: you have that, hey, this wasn't all on the up

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Speaker 1: and up. Yeah, so you've reviewed all these documents, You've

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Speaker 1: spoken to a bunch of people, including Hugh Jackson's lawyer

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Speaker 1: Joe Stafford. What evidence is there, what exactly is being alleged? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and we should make clear the Browns are denying that

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Speaker 1: they intentionally lost or incentivized their coach to intentionally lose,

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Speaker 1: and there's nothing along the lines of he got paid

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Speaker 1: X amount of dollars for losing games. I had one

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Speaker 1: player who is on those teams as we discussed this

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Speaker 1: sort of be like, boy, you really have to read

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Speaker 1: between the lines here, and that's kind of what it is.

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Speaker 1: And that's why it's also going to be interesting to

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Speaker 1: see how the NFL handles this, because there's nothing that says,

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Speaker 1: go one in fifteen and we'll pay you X amount

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Speaker 1: of dollars. What it does say is if we have

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Speaker 1: a certain amount of draft capital, you, the head coach,

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Speaker 1: gets a bonus for that. That's that's out of your

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Speaker 1: control as a head coach, unless you lose a lot

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Speaker 1: of games. The number is for the twenties sixteen draft

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Speaker 1: ten draft picks in they want eleven draft picks. You

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Speaker 1: get draft picks by having high picks. You have high

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Speaker 1: picks by losing a lot of games, and then you

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Speaker 1: flip those high picks into into more picks. There's also

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Speaker 1: there's a bonus for Hugh Jackson that salary cap carry over,

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Speaker 1: and the way the salary cap works, if you don't

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Speaker 1: spend a certain amount of money, or I should say,

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Speaker 1: if you are a certain amount under the cap for

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Speaker 1: one season, you can carry that over to the next season.

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Speaker 1: Hugh Jackson gets a bonus for that. Now, that's sort

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Speaker 1: of a personnel bonus that you would typically give not

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Speaker 1: to the head coach, because that is basically going to me,

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Speaker 1: and your team will not be maximizing the kind of

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Speaker 1: roster it can build at that point. I should clarify,

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Speaker 1: probably the most unusual thing out of all of this,

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Speaker 1: outside of the fact that perhaps Hugh Jackson was being

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Speaker 1: indirectly incentivized to lose games, is this actually doesn't appear

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Speaker 1: in his contract. Every coaching player contract has to go

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Speaker 1: to the NFL for them to approve. There was a

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Speaker 1: reference to this incentive package in the contract, but the

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Speaker 1: actual details of the incentive package only appear in this

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Speaker 1: booklet called the four Year Plan, which is an internal

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Speaker 1: document that the Browns put out. It's very unusual that

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Speaker 1: this never sort of made its way to the NFL

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Speaker 1: for some sort of approval. Yeah, as you mentioned, Gary,

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Speaker 1: it sounds like there's a lot of reading between the

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Speaker 1: lines that they have to do here, because clearly the

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Speaker 1: Browns weren't so explicit about this that they outlined at

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Speaker 1: all that everybody would know immediately what was happening. There's

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Speaker 1: a lot of euphemistic and gray language being used. But Connor,

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Speaker 1: you guys wrote that the Browns have a trump card here, right,

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Speaker 1: because they're not only denying all of these allegations, but

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Speaker 1: they say that they've got proof that they didn't do this. Right. So,

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Speaker 1: this is an interesting feature of most coaching contracts, and

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Speaker 1: that is basically, if you get fired before the end

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Speaker 1: of your contract and you would like to collect the

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Speaker 1: remainder of your money, you sign a release. So basically,

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Speaker 1: if you have any complaints, you have to go to

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Speaker 1: the NFL's court and you have to play by the

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Speaker 1: NFL's rules. And it's not like the NFL is a

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Speaker 1: place that's like, oh, yes, here, hand us all this

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Speaker 1: dammaging information about the league and our teams, and we

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Speaker 1: would like to put this through the standard legal system

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Speaker 1: where it can get out and have everybody be able

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Speaker 1: to read it. No, everything kind of gets shut down

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Speaker 1: and cut off. And that's kind of really at the

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Speaker 1: heart of this story is I think that there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of coaches who view this as an unnecessary and

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Speaker 1: kind of overarching measure. They're really big companies out there

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Speaker 1: who are ending these release agreements in contracts. So I

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Speaker 1: want to board down a little bit on how they

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Speaker 1: might have actually tanked. If hypothetically they did that. How

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Speaker 1: could they do it because we have Hugh Jackson here

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Speaker 1: saying that the Browns misled him, they intentionally lost games.

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Speaker 1: But I'm wondering how they could pull that off without

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Speaker 1: Hugh Jackson being at least implicit or even explicitly signing

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Speaker 1: off on it. So the reason we kind of know

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Speaker 1: what Hugh jackson sentiment in all of this is is

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Speaker 1: one of the documents we have. It's a motion to

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Speaker 1: vacate the NFL's arbitration. Now, he didn't go forward with

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Speaker 1: this in Cuyahoga County in Ohio. I did ask his

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Speaker 1: lawyer about that. His lawyer said, essentially he didn't like

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Speaker 1: his chances of winning his case in Ohio based on

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Speaker 1: the fact that he did sign or LEAs agreement. But

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Speaker 1: the way this played out according to this filing, And

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Speaker 1: again I do want to reiterate this is Hugh Jackson's

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Speaker 1: lawyer prepared this. We all know lawyers are advocates for

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Speaker 1: their clients. I don't want to present this as the

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Speaker 1: absolute truth on this matter, But Hugh Jackson says that

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Speaker 1: when he went through the interview process with the Browns,

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Speaker 1: they essentially told him we got a buch of cap space,

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Speaker 1: we have some draft capital, we're gonna start building this

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Speaker 1: thing up. We're gonna we're gonna win some games. We're

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Speaker 1: gonna give you what you need. The incentive package in

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Speaker 1: the four year plan, which is about the heart of

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Speaker 1: Jackson's accutations here, it was not in his contract. He

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Speaker 1: did not see it at all. They didn't even tell

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Speaker 1: him that this four year plan was being assembled until

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Speaker 1: February according to this motion, and on top of that,

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Speaker 1: it was not finalized until May twenty three. In the meantime,

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Speaker 1: the Yatt whole offseason go through. The Browns were not

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Speaker 1: active in the free agent market. As a lot of

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Speaker 1: Browns fans know about the off season, they let Mitchell

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Speaker 1: Schwartz go. They decided they did not want to meet

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Speaker 1: his asking price. They'd rather have the compensed story pick.

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Speaker 1: But you can fast forward to seventeen and the fact

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Speaker 1: that they let Joe Hayden go, They let de Mario

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Speaker 1: Davis go. Jackson had advocated for Colin Kaepernick in the

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Speaker 1: off season of seen. They did not make that move,

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Speaker 1: and to be clear, that was before Colin Kaepernick had

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Speaker 1: begun his sort of public social justice campaign. So Jackson

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Speaker 1: is kind of arguing, they told me one thing. I

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Speaker 1: got in there and they just completely pulled the rug

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Speaker 1: out from under me, and I had no players to

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Speaker 1: work with. And obviously that's that's prevalent in the win

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Speaker 1: loss record. There were also people in that building who realize,

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Speaker 1: we just we have a team that can't win. We

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Speaker 1: don't have an NFL caliber roster. Right now, Gary mentioned

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Speaker 1: the bonus system in the four year plan, just so

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Speaker 1: everybody understands what that is. Connor lay that out for us.

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Speaker 1: I believe basically what this says here is that, for example,

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Speaker 1: on the table for the coach to earn his bonus,

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Speaker 1: for Hugh Jackson to earn his bonus, in in two

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Speaker 1: thousands sixteen, the Browns head to make at least eleven

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Speaker 1: picks in the NFL's draft, with five of those picks

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Speaker 1: being in the first three rounds. You do that, you

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Speaker 1: get your bonus. If the organization carried over at least

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Speaker 1: fifteen percent of their salary cap, you get your bonus.

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Speaker 1: And so you could look at it from two ways,

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Speaker 1: right that is, either in agreement to say Hey, okay,

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Speaker 1: everybody's benefiting from this, so no one can say they

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Speaker 1: didn't do it or at the time, mean, you have

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Speaker 1: to understand that the NFL is really shifting towards more

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Speaker 1: of a collaborative focus, like all the gms and coaches

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Speaker 1: were coming in together and hired together and signed through

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Speaker 1: contracts together. So you could look at it that way,

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Speaker 1: or you could look at it as maybe this is

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Speaker 1: just a really weird and off ball way for a

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Speaker 1: franchise to say, hey, we're all on the same team

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Speaker 1: here and so we all have the same goals sor Right,

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Speaker 1: So there are all these allegations that the Browns were

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Speaker 1: incentivizing losing, and among the many documents you guys reviewed

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Speaker 1: were emails between Roger Goodell and Hugh Jackson. Right, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so Hugh has been banging the drum on this for

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Speaker 1: quite a while. According to his motion, he had first

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Speaker 1: brought this up with the league in twenty sixteen, this

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Speaker 1: approach of the Browns were taking, which he you know,

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Speaker 1: it did not feel was in line with the competitive

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Speaker 1: integrity of the NFL. He went through the arbitration process

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Speaker 1: and afterwards he had a series of emails and letters

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Speaker 1: that he sent to Roger Goodell that, as we say,

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Speaker 1: they're kind of rife with all caps and bold fonts,

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Speaker 1: and he is very upset. And even after he had

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Speaker 1: lost his arbitration, which would have awarded him some sort

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Speaker 1: of monetary reward, he wanted an investigation into the Browns

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Speaker 1: for for allegedly tanking during these two seasons. And I

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Speaker 1: think part of it for him became kind of a

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Speaker 1: quest to, let's say, restore his reputation as a football

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Speaker 1: coach after two and a half nightmare seasons in which

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Speaker 1: he leaves with a three thirty six and one record,

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Speaker 1: and he apparently feels that the organization is just as

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Speaker 1: much as at fault for that as he is. So

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Speaker 1: you mentioned the organization being at fault there. Sashi Brown

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Speaker 1: was in charge of the Browns back then. He's now

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Speaker 1: the team president for the Ravens. Connor, what does he

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Speaker 1: have to say of anything about all this? Yeah, we

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Speaker 1: got a no comment out of Baltimore. And yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think Saucy is kind of an interesting figure there.

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Speaker 1: From my understanding of how this all, he was basically

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Speaker 1: supposed to be the arbiter between football and analytics, right.

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Speaker 1: He was supposed to be the bridge that brought these

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Speaker 1: two together in this experiment that Jimmy Haslum was running,

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Speaker 1: and ultimately was really the first person to pay for this.

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Speaker 1: He got fired and then I believe had a twenty

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Speaker 1: month hiatus out of sports until he came back with

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Speaker 1: the Washington Wizards and is now obviously the team president

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Speaker 1: of the Ravens. But sort of a unique figure in

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Speaker 1: this because even back to if you remember, there was

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't say suspicion, but just everybody around the league's

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Speaker 1: antenna was raised up and and some good curiosity in

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Speaker 1: a way too. I think people wanted to know what

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Speaker 1: he was doing and Paul Deepodesta, what they were doing

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Speaker 1: with the Browns. They didn't have extensive background work in football,

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Speaker 1: and how this was going to work. I think he's

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Speaker 1: sort of one of that those interesting figureheads there, but

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Speaker 1: one that had no interest in I don't think, at

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Speaker 1: least Via Ravens spokesperson weighing in on this story, I

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Speaker 1: want to play devil's advoc get here really quickly. Some

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Speaker 1: people would say, why would the Browns need to intentionally

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Speaker 1: tank when they've been unintentionally awful for decades? I mean,

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Speaker 1: weren't haven't they already just been functionally tanking. You could

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Speaker 1: certainly make that argument. The specific argument that Jackson would

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Speaker 1: make was was obviously he's brought in there and they're saying, well,

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Speaker 1: we have cap space, we have draft capital, We're ready

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Speaker 1: to start building a winner. Here. One thing I do

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Speaker 1: want to mention, and it is, look, it's difficult to

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Speaker 1: get people to sort of be scandalized by tanking, right,

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Speaker 1: and everyone loves when their team is, if not winning

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Speaker 1: the Super Bowl. I think the next best thing for

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Speaker 1: a lot of fans is, well, let's have like a

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Speaker 1: really high draft pick and let's get a new quarterback

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Speaker 1: or whatever it might be for the players on that team.

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Speaker 1: And I spoke to one player who said he has

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Speaker 1: been in touch with a lot of former teammates who

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Speaker 1: feel this kind of ruined their careers being on this team.

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Speaker 1: Not only from a reputational standpoint, but when you are

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Speaker 1: out there surrounded by kind of non NFL talent, you

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Speaker 1: look bad on tape. This derails your career to an extent.

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Speaker 1: And there is a group of players that they haven't

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Speaker 1: gone too far forward yet, but they're at least discussing

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Speaker 1: LEO action. I think what was so upsetting for a

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Speaker 1: lot of guys who were there at the time. And uh,

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Speaker 1: one of the guys who spoke on the record for

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Speaker 1: this story is is a coach named Ken Delgado. He

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Speaker 1: is actually currently with Hugh Jackson down in Grambling University,

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Speaker 1: but he had been a long time assistant coach in

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Speaker 1: college football. This was kind of his chance to break

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Speaker 1: through in seen with his brown staff. That was his

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Speaker 1: first NFL job. As he says, you know that this

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Speaker 1: is everyone's dream job getting to the highest level of football.

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Speaker 1: Here he did a, you know, on paper, a decent

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Speaker 1: job with their defensive line. He was an assistant defensive

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Speaker 1: line coach on Jackson's staff in Cleveland. He was out

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Speaker 1: after the season and he just said straight up like, look,

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Speaker 1: I'm realistic about this. I'm not going to get back

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Speaker 1: into the league. That was my chance. I'm now branded

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Speaker 1: as part of this one in thirty one run that

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Speaker 1: the Browns had. No one's really going to pick up

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Speaker 1: the phone and want to bring me back in. For

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Speaker 1: the eyes who were there, they've sort of been branded

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Speaker 1: with this really problematic two year run and it ended

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Speaker 1: a lot of careers. And I think just to add

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Speaker 1: to that, I mean when when we saw with the

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Speaker 1: Miami Dolphins were initially doing under Brian Flores when they

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Speaker 1: first got there. Our former colleague Jenny Rerentis went down

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Speaker 1: to Miami and did a really excellent story on kind

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Speaker 1: of the ethics of this kind of rebuild. And I

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Speaker 1: do think that there are very real, as Gary mentioned,

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Speaker 1: safety concerns. And it's kind of interesting when you talk

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Speaker 1: to players across the spectrum where you know, certainly there

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Speaker 1: are some players who have been in the NFL and

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Speaker 1: have developed that sort of calloused cynicism. I think about

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Speaker 1: what goes on in the league and it's like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is just what happens, this is life. But I

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Speaker 1: think there are some other people that like, hey, you know,

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Speaker 1: if I'm playing next to somebody who doesn't know what

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Speaker 1: they're doing, that's gonna get me hurt. You know. I

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Speaker 1: think that's a similar refrain that you hear from, you know,

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Speaker 1: whether it's firefighters or police officers or whatever, and it's like,

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Speaker 1: you know, the test has to be hard because anyone

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Speaker 1: who passes it is saving my behind. And so I

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Speaker 1: think that there's an element of that, certainly with the NFL,

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Speaker 1: where it's like, yeah, this thing you know, you have

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Speaker 1: to be competitive because if everyone isn't good, then I

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Speaker 1: get hurt. So there are repercussions in this that go

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Speaker 1: beyond just Hugh Jackson or Jimmy Haslum or Paul D.

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Speaker 1: Podesto or Sashi Brown. Not too much. Competitive integrity is

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Speaker 1: such sort of a vague thing, but one of the

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Speaker 1: big appeals of the NFL is the fact that any

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Speaker 1: given Sunday, and that's not just any game, but any season.

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Speaker 1: The last three years we have had a Super Bowl

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Speaker 1: participant who had a losing record the previous season. Giving

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Speaker 1: those fans hope year to year is one of the

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Speaker 1: things that really is appealing about the NFL. We're not

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Speaker 1: even getting uh into the gambling aspect of this and

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Speaker 1: n d O. If you believe that a team's head

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Speaker 1: coach has been incentivized to lose game teams, especially towards

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Speaker 1: the end of the season, that has a lot of

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Speaker 1: repercussions as far as the gambling community goes. And obviously,

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Speaker 1: as we all know, we have a lot of lee

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Speaker 1: wise gambling in this country now and nobody draws more

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Speaker 1: bets than the NFL does. The competitive integrity component is

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Speaker 1: interesting to me because now we have the Browns and

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Speaker 1: have we have allegations against them and tanking, and also

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Speaker 1: the Dolphins have been accused of tanking. Connor are we

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Speaker 1: to believe that they're the only two teams who might

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Speaker 1: have done this, or do we suspect that other organizations

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Speaker 1: might be exposed as well. I don't think that this

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Speaker 1: is necessarily wholly unique. I think what's unique about the

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Speaker 1: brown circumstance was that they decided to put it on paper,

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Speaker 1: and I think that it also went too far. I

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Speaker 1: think that anybody that's associated with that organization during that

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Speaker 1: time would say it went too far. And I think

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Speaker 1: that other teams have probably done softer versions of this,

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Speaker 1: you know, many resets or or whatever, the kinder, gentler

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Speaker 1: version of this that you want to say is, but

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Speaker 1: nowhere near to I think the scale and the aggressiveness

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Speaker 1: with which the Browns did did their's alright. So, despite

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Speaker 1: all these documents and all these allegations, on Monday, the

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Speaker 1: NFL said that the league's independent investigation found quote no

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Speaker 1: evidence to substantiate the accusations of tanking. This feels like

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Speaker 1: nothing to see here. The NFL is moving on situation.

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Speaker 1: The Browns also issued a statement saying that they were

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Speaker 1: pleased with the findings or the lack of findings, which

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Speaker 1: that's hardly surprising. I'm wondering what the two of you

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Speaker 1: make on where the NFL ultimately landed on this. I

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Speaker 1: wouldn't say I was surprised. Um. Certainly there are elements

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Speaker 1: of what seemed to be a legitimate building process by

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Speaker 1: the Browns throughout Hugh Jackson's time. They're right, in two

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Speaker 1: thousand seventeen they signed Kevin Zeitler, who was one of

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Speaker 1: the uh who was one of the most prominent free

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Speaker 1: agents on the market. Um, And there did at times

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Speaker 1: certainly seemed to be some efforts to win games. And

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Speaker 1: they also, you know, we got our hands on a

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Speaker 1: letter from the Commissioner to Jimmy Haslum that said, Hey,

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Speaker 1: one of the things we saw in here was that

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Speaker 1: in this performance table that we had talked about before,

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Speaker 1: Hugh Jackson did make edits to it, and so that

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Speaker 1: would seem to to make him on board with what

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Speaker 1: was going on here. So again, I think this entire

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Speaker 1: process is depending on how you look at it. You know,

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Speaker 1: do you think that incentivizing someone to have more draft

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Speaker 1: picks in the first few rounds of the draft is

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Speaker 1: legitimate or do you feel like that's just a way

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Speaker 1: around incentivizing a tank, right, And so it's it's interesting.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I think the NFL landed where

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Speaker 1: they were comfortable landing. I don't think that they want

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Speaker 1: to open Pandora's box, especially with the Dolphins investigation going on,

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Speaker 1: especially with everything happening regarding their gambling relationships and how

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Speaker 1: everything's kind of not an uneven footing. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: all systems go, but you never want to portray this

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Speaker 1: air of well, hey, there might not be things completely

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Speaker 1: above board going on here. So what I would make

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Speaker 1: of it is I think the NFL, if you had

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Speaker 1: to ask me before the investigations started, where they would land,

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Speaker 1: I was guessing probably somewhere around here. Yeah. So, despite

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Speaker 1: the NFL trying to sweep all this onto the car,

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Speaker 1: but you guys did some really excellent reporting on the subject.

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Speaker 1: I highly recommend everybody go read their story about this

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Speaker 1: on si dot com, which we will link to in

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Speaker 1: our show notes, and listen to them on the mm

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Speaker 1: QB podcast. Gary Grambling Connor Or thanks for us well,

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Speaker 1: Thanks John, Thanks John. Sports Illustrated Weekly is a production

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Speaker 1: of Sports Illustrated and I Heart Radio. For more podcasts

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Speaker 1: from my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app,

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows. And

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Speaker 1: for more of Sports Illustrated It's best stories and podcasts,

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Speaker 1: visit SI dot com. The special bonus episode of Sports

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Speaker 1: Illustrated Weekly was produced by Cooper mckimp Isaac Lee is

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Speaker 1: our sound engineer. Our senior producer is Dan Blue. Our

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Speaker 1: executive producers are Scott Brody and me John Gonzalez. Thanks

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Speaker 1: for listening. Our regularly scheduled episode will appear in your

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Speaker 1: feed tomorrow Wednesday, May four,