1 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:07,159 Speaker 1: This is Masters in Business with Barry Ridholts on Bloomberg 2 00:00:07,280 --> 00:00:10,239 Speaker 1: Radio Today. On the show, I am thrilled to have 3 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: William Gruskin, a person I've known over the years as 4 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:20,119 Speaker 1: an editor and dean at the Columbia University School of Journalism. 5 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: I know Bill from his early days when he was 6 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 1: a managing editor at the Wall Street Journal, and eventually 7 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: he pretty much took over running Wall Street Journal Online, which, 8 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:35,200 Speaker 1: as he tells us, is the largest subscription news site 9 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 1: in the world. Bill Um has pretty much seen everything 10 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: there is to see in the world of the business, 11 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: world of journalism, and we're trying to do more of 12 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 1: these shows that aren't just fund managers or economists, but 13 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 1: actually bring people in who have run businesses and can 14 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 1: talk about it. Bill is uniquely situated. He's seen both 15 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 1: the decay in the traditional business of journalism, but he's 16 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 1: also been very active on the Wall Street Journal dot 17 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 1: com site, which is by all measures, been wildly successful. 18 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 1: They probably have of all the mainstream media tablet products, 19 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: they probably have the best iPad um app I've seen. 20 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:25,039 Speaker 1: It's just really a pleasure to use in order to 21 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 1: read a newspaper. They're they're fantastic. I know Bill for 22 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: a good couple of years. I first met him early 23 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 1: in the days of Wall Street Journal Digital when they 24 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:41,320 Speaker 1: were considering rolling out this thing called blogs, and Bill 25 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 1: and I had had a breakfast actually not too far 26 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: from here, over at Persian Square Cafe going over what 27 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: they can expect and how they should approach the idea 28 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: of blogs at the Wall Street Journal, and they took 29 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: some of my advice. A lot of my advice they didn't. 30 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 1: But I think some of the blog that we've seen 31 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 1: that the Wall Street Journal have put out, notably Money 32 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 1: Beat and Real Time Economics, have really garnered a pretty 33 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:13,119 Speaker 1: big following and are a nice addition to the paper itself. 34 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:18,239 Speaker 1: I've also spoken with Bill, and I've spoken to classes 35 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 1: at the Columbia School of Journalism about enumeracy and how 36 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 1: easy it is for reporters to get bamboozled by numbers, 37 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 1: especially with what we've seen from trade groups and associations 38 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:37,360 Speaker 1: or politicians trying to twist economic releases in their favor. 39 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 1: It's very, very easy if you're don't have a facility 40 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 1: with numbers, are you're not especially good with math um. 41 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:47,640 Speaker 1: If you're an English major and your specialty is writing, 42 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:52,919 Speaker 1: not you know, doing calculations, to not fully understand statistics, 43 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 1: not fully understand mathematics. It's it's a challenge that reporters 44 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 1: have always had, and today, where there's so little training 45 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 1: and so little apprenticeship periods, it's become even uh more 46 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 1: of a challenge. And and I recall speaking to him 47 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 1: in a class at Columbia way back when I've done 48 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 1: it once or twice, and it was really quite fascinating 49 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: discussing how not to misinterpret economic data. But Bill has 50 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 1: really a unique insight into the business of journalism, what 51 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: works and what doesn't work. And I think you'll find 52 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 1: this to be quite an interesting conversation. It's a little 53 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 1: inside baseball, but interesting nonetheless. And so with no further ado, 54 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 1: here's my interview with William Gruskin. This is Masters in 55 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 1: Business with Barry Ridholts on Bloomberg Radio. On today's show, 56 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: we're discussing the business of journalism, and I'm pleased to 57 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 1: having the studio Bill Gruskin. He's currently executive editor here 58 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 1: at Bloomberg. Wired to that he was dean at the 59 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 1: Columbia School of Journalism and he spent many years at 60 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 1: the Wall Street Journal. Most recently he was managing editor 61 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 1: for The Wall Street Journal Online, which I believe is 62 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 1: one of the largest subscription site in the world, actually 63 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 1: the largest subscription news site, because Consumer Reports has always 64 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 1: had and I presume still has more subscribers than than 65 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: wh dot com. But when it comes to news sites, yeah, 66 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:30,159 Speaker 1: so largest. And you were managing editor of the paper 67 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:34,359 Speaker 1: proper and I was deputy managing editor for UM in 68 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:36,720 Speaker 1: two thousand seven and two thousand and eight, overseeing all 69 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 1: the domestic news bureaus as well as all the editing functions. 70 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 1: And let's let's get and start with your background. Undergraduate 71 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:46,679 Speaker 1: degree in classics from Stanford. You then went to John 72 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: Hopkins and got a master's degree in US foreign policy 73 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 1: and international economics. There you go, right, pretty good set 74 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 1: of broad based background to look at the world's of 75 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 1: business and finance all the Oh, I didn't actually get 76 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 1: involved in business until I got to the Journal in 77 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:07,480 Speaker 1: I'd spent about fifteen years doing metro journalism. So that's 78 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: a really interesting entree. What was it, Uh? You know, 79 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 1: Rupert Murdoch and his predecessor, the Bancroft's not known for 80 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 1: being especially generous with journalists. What was the appeal to 81 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: bring you over to the Wall Street Journal. Well, what 82 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 1: they were generous with was providing time and space to 83 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 1: do really great journalism in the mid You might remember 84 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 1: what the old Wall Street journalis still look like, totally gray, 85 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:35,159 Speaker 1: two big long legs of type on on the left 86 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:36,920 Speaker 1: and right, and then the little story in the middle 87 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 1: that we called the a head. And and I was 88 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: recruited to work on what they called the page one desk. 89 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 1: And there still is a page one desk at the Journal. 90 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 1: But I remember when I first got there. This is 91 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 1: when the journal ran five days a week, right, so 92 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 1: we had three stories on the front page. You can 93 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 1: do the map three times, five fifteen stories. We had 94 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:56,720 Speaker 1: twelve editors editing fifteen stories a week. Now, when I 95 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:59,159 Speaker 1: worked to the Miami Herald, you would do fifteen stories 96 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:02,919 Speaker 1: a night. It really wasn't that unusual. So it was 97 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 1: like coming into the Garden of Eden and saying in depth, 98 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 1: a little quirky, esoteric exactly. I love those a head 99 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 1: stories that were great. The a heads were great, the 100 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 1: column six, the stories on the right side of the page. 101 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: Generally we're pretty heavy on the business and economic front, 102 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: often driven by news stories on the left side you 103 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:25,040 Speaker 1: might remember, tend to be more like features. We look 104 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 1: at things like race, we look at things like culture, 105 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 1: you know, um, pretty much anything under the sun. And 106 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 1: it was just an amazing I feel very fortunate to 107 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: have been part of that. And you left when Murdoch 108 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:39,720 Speaker 1: came in or what was the time, So I had 109 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: a coincidence. I did leave about six months after Murdoch 110 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 1: officially took the reins, and it was kind of a 111 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 1: coincidence of several things, but the main one was I 112 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 1: got a call from Nick Lemon, who at that time 113 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: was the dean of Columbide Journalism School, and he said, 114 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:55,920 Speaker 1: we're looking for somebody to really move the school into 115 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: the digital age, and it was a great opportunity. Let's 116 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: step back and look at them much bigger picture, the 117 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 1: changes in the industry. And I referenced a chart that 118 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 1: I think was Ryan Chitham of the Audit, which is right, 119 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 1: showed that revenues at newspapers are back to levels of 120 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 1: nine three right inflation adjusted. Yeah, astonishing, astonishing figure. I mean, 121 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 1: it's it's a it's a pretty clear trend line. So 122 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 1: so is it the business model that's having trouble or 123 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: is it the content that isn't itself at issue? Because 124 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 1: we've seen a lot of things change. So you might 125 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 1: remember the first time I met you, I think you 126 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 1: were You've been doing your blog for about a year 127 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 1: or two and four, yeah something, and dot com was 128 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 1: about to dip its big toe into blogs, and and 129 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: I wanted to take you out to breakfast. And that's right. 130 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 1: We went to the best whole wheat blueberry pancakes. And 131 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 1: I didn't get an endorsement for that, but but I 132 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 1: deserve on. So that's um, that's ten almost over ten years. 133 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 1: It's probably about ten years ago. It's in the decade. Man. 134 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 1: You and I are old. We are. The funny thing 135 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 1: is when when I began blogging, it was, oh, this 136 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: is kind of fun and interesting. I don't have to 137 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: send the letter to the eddler. I could do this 138 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 1: to say, right, right, and maybe someone will read it, 139 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: maybe someone won't, right. And I remember I still remember, 140 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 1: um dealing with top corporate people at Dow Jones when 141 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 1: we were gonna start blogging. I'll never forget there was 142 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 1: this one executive, a woman with a Southern accent. I'll 143 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 1: never forget. She said, why do people want to read blogs? 144 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 1: You know, if you want to read an opinion, you're 145 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 1: gonna want to read it from the Journal or the 146 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 1: Times or something. And of course that that was clearly 147 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 1: not true in two thousand four. Now ten years later, 148 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: you know, when you look at the number of sources 149 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 1: on on business news and some of it, some of 150 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: it's great, and some of it's horrible, and a lot 151 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 1: of it's kind of in the middle. And I think 152 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:55,440 Speaker 1: one of the big challenges for all of us UM 153 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 1: in the journalism world right now is how do you 154 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 1: help readers navigate through that at you know, you look 155 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 1: at Seeking Alpha, you look at Business Insider, you look 156 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 1: at Yahoo Finance. I mean, these are very different UM outlets, 157 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 1: but these have huge audiences and the millions of people. 158 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: So what does the content creation industry say about journalism, 159 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 1: financial media our world? So, you know, in the journalism world, 160 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:28,320 Speaker 1: there's really kind of two kinds of content creators. There's 161 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 1: the people who are out out there doing the original reporting. 162 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:36,559 Speaker 1: There they're going through you know, balance sheets and and 163 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 1: and SEC filings in order to dig up stories. They're 164 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:43,439 Speaker 1: they're listening to conference calls to try to ferret out 165 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:48,560 Speaker 1: what the speaking to original sources exactly, exactly doing original journalism. 166 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 1: Then there's a lot of people out there who are 167 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 1: aggregating or providing commentary, analysis and opinion around what they're doing, 168 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: and those are not two complete divisions between each other. 169 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:02,960 Speaker 1: Any good news website has some kind of aggregation function 170 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 1: to it, and a lot of people, including you, Berry, 171 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 1: will I go and find something new and you'll reveal 172 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 1: it to your readers which did not appear in the 173 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 1: Journal or The New York Times Bloomberg. I'm Barry Ridhults. 174 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 1: You're listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio today. 175 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 1: We're speaking with Bill Gruskin, currently executive editor at Bloomberg, 176 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:24,320 Speaker 1: but previously Dean of the Columbia School of Journalism and 177 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 1: former managing editor for The Wall Street Journal Online. So 178 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 1: this has always been the complain about bloggers in general, 179 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 1: is hey, we're doing original, certainly a complain about the 180 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:40,200 Speaker 1: people who only did aggregation. Like I. I spent the 181 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 1: latter half of my career. I began as a trader 182 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: and became a strategist, so I was cranking out original 183 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:49,679 Speaker 1: stuff every day, and I always in oh three, oh four, 184 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:52,720 Speaker 1: oh five. That's really what I was fleshing out the 185 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 1: blog with It was only later where I discovered, hey, 186 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 1: I have a ton of stuff I look and you 187 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 1: and I discussed this. I have a ton of stuff 188 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 1: I look at at the end of the day that 189 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 1: just dissipates from my head. If I make a list 190 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: of the ten most interesting things I've read, maybe that 191 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:11,319 Speaker 1: has a value to somebody. And I've been now doing 192 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 1: that for a decade, right, And so it's not that 193 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:21,199 Speaker 1: I'm now I'm completely understand the business side of journalistic 194 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 1: complaint that hey, we're doing this original research and one 195 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 1: of these sites, that was the Beefed HuffPo that they 196 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 1: would take all this original content and do an intro 197 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:36,199 Speaker 1: sentence and an outro sentence and data and how is 198 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 1: that not copyright violation? Well, as long as you're only 199 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:43,679 Speaker 1: taking a small excerpt, then it falls with it. And 200 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 1: I think they were also taking the punchline. You know, 201 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 1: if I don't here's a thousand word article, let me 202 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:54,440 Speaker 1: take the hundred and fifty most important words. Why do 203 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:58,959 Speaker 1: I have to go read readers is plenty right, I mean, 204 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 1: they don't necessarily to read a two thousand words Sorry 205 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 1: about why the CFO of the Facebook just stepped down yesterday. 206 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 1: You know, they just want to you know, the headline, 207 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:10,959 Speaker 1: a couple of paragraphs and boom that they're often story right. 208 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 1: So you know, I think this has been hard. You know, 209 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:16,960 Speaker 1: the traditional media companies have a lot of problems. The 210 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 1: main one is in a digital world, every single piece 211 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:23,439 Speaker 1: of content gets atomized, right, so you don't necessarily need 212 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:26,680 Speaker 1: it all to be delivered you in one package that 213 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:29,200 Speaker 1: hits your doorstep, or that's like a thirty minute broadcast 214 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: on TV. Every every article, every photo is available anywhere 215 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 1: in the world. You could create your own paper, a 216 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: little of the Times, a little f T, a little Bloomberg, 217 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 1: and that's your own very few and I wanted to 218 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:42,319 Speaker 1: we kind a laptop. We could go to WordPress and 219 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 1: we could create a website and literally two minutes and 220 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 1: anything we put on that website would be instantaneously available 221 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 1: to anybody in the world. Think about that. That's a 222 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,199 Speaker 1: that's a game changing That that is a game changer, 223 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 1: and that's scary and and it fundamentally and irrevocably changes 224 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 1: the economics of our business. You've done a lot digital media. 225 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:07,839 Speaker 1: You've looked at the changes in the business model of 226 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 1: media and financial reporting. Let me, I wrote a few 227 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:16,720 Speaker 1: company names down because I was knowing I was going 228 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 1: to speak to you. I was thinking about, let's think 229 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 1: about the companies who are making running a journalistic enterprise 230 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:26,959 Speaker 1: and challenge and not so much from the content side, 231 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 1: from the business side. So here's the shortlist that came 232 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:36,200 Speaker 1: up with. Craigslist essentially gutted the class if it's a 233 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:40,440 Speaker 1: huge source of revenue for eBay has done a lot 234 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 1: to take over the sale of used cars and new cars, 235 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 1: Zilo and Trulia on on residential real estate. UM, I 236 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 1: don't know what mobile has done to the business model, 237 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: but it's just another wild card, another random factor. And 238 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:00,559 Speaker 1: you know when we talked, we talked earlier about blogs 239 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 1: and Twitter. They're really more in terms of content. But 240 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 1: what about things like Facebook? What is Facebook advertising which 241 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:12,199 Speaker 1: seems to be doing well? How is that challenging? How 242 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 1: are all these companies challenging the business model of journalism? So, 243 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 1: you know, the interesting thing is a couple of years ago, 244 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: people used to really focus on things like Craigslist, which, 245 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 1: as you said, really did a job on newspapers classified 246 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: ads and newspapers class fied ads. I think they had 247 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 1: like an eight kind of margin that they were just 248 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 1: you know, any idiot could run a local newspaper, you know. 249 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 1: But what's interesting so with Facebook and obviously with with 250 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 1: Google as well, so you have a few issues. One 251 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 1: is they're just generating huge amounts of advertising inventory. It's 252 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 1: just at a scale that's that no news organization can 253 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 1: really hope to match. You know, even the Guardian or 254 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 1: New York Times dot com. You know, they don't come 255 00:14:57,280 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 1: close to holding a candle where did? I was reading 256 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 1: in one of Facebook learning stories today that two thirds 257 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 1: of their one point two billion users log on every day. 258 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 1: They have they have two interesting data points, daily average 259 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 1: users and monthly average users. But the one caveat I'll 260 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 1: warn you about is if you click a like button, 261 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 1: that account is having logged on, which really, what is 262 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 1: the net dollar game is zero increase the where their 263 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 1: profits seemed to becoming. Our people on the site looking 264 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 1: at the stream, looking at ads going by. But even 265 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 1: let's say it's a third of their advertise, it's still 266 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 1: an immense daily number of page views exactly. So you 267 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 1: know a few years ago back lines at w dot com, 268 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 1: we were looking at digital ad rates. Uh, they call 269 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: them the CPMs, which is the cost per thousand impressions, 270 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 1: be ten twenties. Some parts of the sites were I 271 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 1: don't know what comes AD rates are these days. I 272 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 1: seem they're still pretty high because it's a premium audience. 273 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 1: But a lot of publishers are looking at CPMs of 274 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 1: seventy five cents a dollar because that's what Facebook charges 275 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 1: right well, But keep in mind it's a mass audience, 276 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 1: and the financial audience. I could tell you on the 277 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 1: blog five years ago dollars was not uncommon. Now it's three, 278 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: four or five dollars. I mean it's a side it's 279 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 1: a side business. It's and there was never intended to 280 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 1: be my main business. But if that's your main business, 281 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 1: that's a drop in revenue, and and it's clearly going down, down, 282 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 1: down all the time. So a lot of news sites 283 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 1: are now in a situation where they're trying to generate 284 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 1: more and more traffic just to keep their head above water. 285 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 1: You know, if you can generate twice as many pages 286 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 1: and the CPN goes down, you're exactly where you were 287 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 1: last year. But it's very hard to drive twice as 288 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 1: many pages every year, and you're compromising your content slide 289 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 1: shows and extreme headlines and exactly well all of the 290 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: worst sort of clickbait stuff that you know, really takes 291 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 1: you from true journalism to write. And there's a reason 292 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 1: people look at web based stuff somewhat differently than they 293 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 1: do um a print outlet like the Times of the Journal, 294 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: because a lot of it is nonsense. Yeah, and also 295 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:21,960 Speaker 1: advertising on most news websites is terrible. I mean it 296 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 1: just does. I mean the ads themselves, theseves, the formats 297 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:28,200 Speaker 1: have not really improved. Why I first got to dot 298 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 1: com in two thousand one that they were showing me 299 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:33,960 Speaker 1: a rectangular ad that would go on the homepage of 300 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:36,160 Speaker 1: what they call three D by to fifty which stands 301 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 1: for stands for the number of pixels. That was two 302 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 1: thousand one, and I agreed to put her on the 303 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 1: home page. The add to part. When you go to 304 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 1: dot com now or pretty much the website, that's pretty 305 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 1: much what you see. It's been thirteen years. You have 306 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:52,200 Speaker 1: seven ten by nine. I mean sometimes you get the skyscraper. 307 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:55,119 Speaker 1: I think it's one sixty. I mean, everything else has 308 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 1: changed in the digital world, but this kind of concept 309 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:01,399 Speaker 1: of we're gonna give you or a rectangular ad We're 310 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 1: gonna stick next to a story and somehow there's gonna 311 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:06,199 Speaker 1: be a lot of value for the advertiser. It's just 312 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:09,440 Speaker 1: not true. I'm Barry rid Hults. You're listening to Masters 313 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:13,119 Speaker 1: in Business on Bloomberg Radio. Today we're speaking with Bill Gruskin, 314 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:17,359 Speaker 1: currently executive editor at Bloomberg, but previously Dean of the 315 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 1: Columbia School of Journalism and former managing editor for The 316 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:24,920 Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal Online since you left the Journal, or 317 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:27,359 Speaker 1: really a better way of saying this is, over the 318 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:33,439 Speaker 1: past decade, we've seen the sort of uh segregation of 319 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 1: outlets by political partisanship. And so I jotted a few down. 320 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 1: So you have Fox on the one side and MSNBC, 321 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 1: which is really smaller version of it. I tried to 322 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 1: figure out who was the other side of Drudge. I 323 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:55,200 Speaker 1: can't really put that really isn't on the left. The 324 00:18:55,280 --> 00:19:00,200 Speaker 1: left is completely right. The right seems to walk a 325 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 1: little more in lockstep. And then you know, so you 326 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:09,200 Speaker 1: have you have people like um, Matthew Iglesias and and 327 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 1: obviously Paul Krugman. But Krugman is a guy. Krugman is 328 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:15,880 Speaker 1: a guy with a very specific I have to remember 329 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 1: interviewed him last week after Kruger, Right, that's a good 330 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:28,320 Speaker 1: way to remember that. But what is this bifurcation by politics? 331 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 1: Because because the studies seem to show people on the 332 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 1: right go read their sides, people left go read and 333 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: you end up with this alternative to alternative universes, neither 334 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 1: of which necessary necessarily reflect reality. So the first thing 335 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:48,159 Speaker 1: to keep in mind is the actual size of these audiences. 336 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: I mean, here in New York City, we tend to 337 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 1: focus a lot on these outlets like MSNBC and Fox. 338 00:19:54,440 --> 00:20:01,400 Speaker 1: What does MSNBC's nightly audience two hun a thousand viewers 339 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 1: or something like that. Blog post can get that, Yeah, 340 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 1: and what's the size of how many people live in 341 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 1: this country? Fox News is much much better than MSNBC 342 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:15,040 Speaker 1: was having one and a half million viewers a night 343 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 1: something like that. So first of all, you know, we 344 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 1: all here in New York get very focused on this, 345 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 1: but when you actually get out of New York City, 346 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:25,199 Speaker 1: you find out that, you know, outside certain pockets, not 347 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:29,360 Speaker 1: really that many people actually watched these programs that work 348 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 1: care And I wouldn't be surprised if you know, half 349 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:35,120 Speaker 1: of Fox news audience comes from Jon Stewart and Steve Colbert, 350 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 1: because they need they need the material exactly exactly. So secondly, 351 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 1: you know, this is the way the world used to be. Um, 352 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:47,200 Speaker 1: I mean really, I mean go back a century. You're talking, 353 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:50,719 Speaker 1: I go back fourty or fifty years. I mean basically, 354 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 1: so what happened maybe a little bit more than fifty 355 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 1: years ago, but um, pre war, from pre war, you 356 00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 1: would take a city like New York City and it 357 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:01,159 Speaker 1: had a whole bunch of day newspapers. It didn't just 358 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 1: have you know, two or three. Uh and most most 359 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:08,959 Speaker 1: metro areas these days only have one newspapers. Yeah, if 360 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 1: you're lucky. So if you run the only newspaper in town, 361 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 1: you have to be very objective in the middle of 362 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: the road, right, because you can't piss off the Republicans 363 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 1: campus on the Democrats. But in the old days that 364 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:23,359 Speaker 1: there were newspapers that were very closely aligned with various 365 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:26,880 Speaker 1: political factions and political parties. And this is the way 366 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 1: that the world used to work. So this is nothing new, 367 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: this balkanization to anything. What was new was the relatively 368 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:36,199 Speaker 1: brief period of time where you had these you know, 369 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 1: where every city has one and only one very objective 370 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 1: news provider that like didn't cross the line between the two. 371 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:47,919 Speaker 1: And I have to tell our audience. You're waving to 372 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 1: every other person that goes by between between the Wall 373 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,359 Speaker 1: Street Journal and Columbia, you must know half this building. 374 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 1: I feel like even the guy who fills up the 375 00:21:57,119 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 1: coffee machine probably worked at the Journal at some point. Yeah, 376 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,119 Speaker 1: did you guys have good coffee machines? We did for 377 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 1: a few years. Yeah, yeah, no, no, And as I 378 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:07,439 Speaker 1: call you, you actually had to pay for it to 379 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:11,159 Speaker 1: Oh really? Yeah? Right right, Well, the secret is to 380 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:17,119 Speaker 1: have a data services business that subsidizes the We tried. 381 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 1: We just weren't quite as good at it as Mike Bloomberg. 382 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 1: Can I tell you something? Tell rate? And what was 383 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 1: the Reuters product? Oh? Icon or well that's the new one. 384 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:32,119 Speaker 1: I don't know what. There were three or four companies 385 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 1: that were in the running. I mean, I say this 386 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:37,400 Speaker 1: is an observer and not to kiss his behind, but 387 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,679 Speaker 1: pretty much that race is over now. It seems like 388 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 1: it's kind of fascinating to see a really competitive mark. 389 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,119 Speaker 1: It's like search. Hey, there were all these companies and 390 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 1: then Google just said, everybody, here's the new search algorithm. 391 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 1: You all lose and that's kind of what happened. It's 392 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 1: a relatively rare thing to see happen. Yeah, well, so 393 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:01,680 Speaker 1: they call the Network of Right basically at certain point 394 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 1: the customers go to that's that's what happened here. So 395 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: we were talking about that's a really interesting observation. In 396 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 1: other words, objective journalism and middle of the road. Hey, 397 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna share my opinion. I'm just gonna report 398 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 1: the facts. Post war aberration last and half a century, right, 399 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,160 Speaker 1: and now we've gone back to the pre war version. 400 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 1: Some look at there's still many news outlets that that 401 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:31,520 Speaker 1: still you know, play it down in the middle, and 402 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:34,920 Speaker 1: certainly any of the really big national news organizations. I mean, 403 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 1: obviously there are people are going to disagree, but I 404 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,440 Speaker 1: would say, you know, there's a lot of news out 405 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 1: there that that that is that I think we all 406 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:47,400 Speaker 1: consider is more often than not very objective and and 407 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 1: which you really want to strive for. It. I told 408 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 1: journalism students this all the time. Isn't so much objective 409 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 1: as being a fair and open minded journalists. I'm Barry Ridhults. 410 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,879 Speaker 1: You're listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio today, 411 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 1: speaking with Bill Grupskin, currently executive editor at Bloomberg, but 412 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:07,639 Speaker 1: previously Dean of the Columbia School of Journalism and former 413 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:12,360 Speaker 1: managing editor for The Wall Street Journal online commentary and opinion. 414 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 1: Isn't that something that journalists would Hey, that's the gravy 415 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:19,360 Speaker 1: taint train. You put in your years, you get tapped 416 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,960 Speaker 1: and now I'm a commentator. I published less and and 417 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 1: get paid more. That that was really a certain And 418 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,120 Speaker 1: you can see this with a ton of people. Uh 419 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 1: and then eventually you get a talk show and and 420 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 1: you know, there you are talking into a radio microphone. 421 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 1: But the real fascinating thing for me is, as someone 422 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:44,480 Speaker 1: who's an investor, as somebody who consumes an awful lot 423 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 1: of journalistic content, what is the future of this industry 424 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 1: gonna look like? Not just in terms of politics and 425 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 1: left right, but in terms of look I have my 426 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 1: stable of people that I think are I mentioned Jason's 427 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,879 Speaker 1: why Girl, Dan Gross, who's with the Dale Beast in 428 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,520 Speaker 1: Gretchen Morganson at the New York Times, and I could 429 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,399 Speaker 1: probably put together a list of twenty people. It doesn't 430 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:12,159 Speaker 1: matter what masthead they're publishing under. Um, I want to 431 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,679 Speaker 1: read what they have what I have to see, So 432 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 1: So here's what's really interesting about that. You can create 433 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 1: a Twitter feed or an RSS page where you scoop 434 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:25,119 Speaker 1: up Jason's column, Gretchen stuff, Jesse's stuff, you know, and 435 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,160 Speaker 1: you can basically create your own homepage, right, I mean, 436 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 1: whether it's Twitter or using RSS or or Google Plus 437 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,680 Speaker 1: or something along those lines. And so the idea that 438 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 1: you have to buy the Wall Street Journal in order 439 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 1: to read Jason, or the idea that that you that 440 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 1: you that you that you have to buy the New 441 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 1: York Times and already Rea Gretchen, you know, that's sort 442 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:49,120 Speaker 1: of dissipating these days. And so what's gonna fund them? 443 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:51,119 Speaker 1: How they're not going to do that work if no 444 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:54,640 Speaker 1: one's paying their salaries. I mean, we're seeing increasingly increasing 445 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:59,680 Speaker 1: adoption of pay walls, and scrip was inevitable, wasn't it. Uh, 446 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,239 Speaker 1: you know, it seems inevitable now. I remember when I 447 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,360 Speaker 1: was at Comments had a paywall going back to to 448 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 1: you know, people thought we were crazy in the early 449 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 1: two thousand's, and I would sit there on panel after 450 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:16,719 Speaker 1: panel being be rated by the future Internet people saying, 451 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:18,440 Speaker 1: you know, you guys have to take down your paywall. 452 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:20,560 Speaker 1: You aren't part of the conversation and we can't link 453 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:24,639 Speaker 1: to you. The The advice I gave you with that 454 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 1: breakfast a decade ago was to put your blogs outside 455 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 1: of the paywall, but only let paid subscribers comments. Everybody 456 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:35,720 Speaker 1: else could just read it. And I also, I don't 457 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 1: know if you recall this, I also said take all 458 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 1: of your content that's more than thirty or ninety days 459 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:44,480 Speaker 1: old and put it outside the paywall because the subscription 460 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:48,400 Speaker 1: would be supported by the news stuff that's old. Hey 461 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 1: monetize it with average. So I think we took part 462 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 1: of your advice. All the blogs were outside the paywall. 463 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 1: I think on a technical aspect that we weren't able 464 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:57,440 Speaker 1: to put the comments behind the paywall and not beyond 465 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 1: the paywall, just allow subscribe. And then on the archive thing, 466 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,160 Speaker 1: we ran into a buzz saw because David Jones had 467 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,680 Speaker 1: a Factiva news service, which is very profitable thing, and 468 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,400 Speaker 1: you can't put those stories outside the paywall. You see 469 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:12,920 Speaker 1: this is this is one of the issues with any 470 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:15,360 Speaker 1: kind of a legacy media short right, you have these 471 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 1: kind of entrenched uh um areas of interest, sometimes for 472 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 1: very good reasons. Some of them were pulling in millions 473 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 1: of dollars of revenue. Sometimes it at very high margins 474 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 1: and once you start threatening their business. I'll tell you 475 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 1: about a really interesting website. It's called KSL dot com. 476 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:36,679 Speaker 1: So KSL is the NBC affiliate in Salt Lake City, Utah. Okay, 477 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:38,920 Speaker 1: it's just your ordinary NBC affiliate. Has to be run 478 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 1: by coming called desiret News, which is m operated by 479 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 1: the Mormon Church. So they decided about ten or eleven 480 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:47,840 Speaker 1: years ago, or maybe a little bit longer, they can 481 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 1: see that Craigslist was about to come to Salt Lake 482 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:52,480 Speaker 1: and because there are Mormons that they weren't too happy 483 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 1: about Craigslist and the kind of standards. Since they did, 484 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:59,360 Speaker 1: they have since dropped the issues that were the problem, well, 485 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:01,639 Speaker 1: sex ads in the back and the prostitute. So what 486 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,159 Speaker 1: I'm about to tell you is noel. Craigslist has no 487 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 1: Craigslist has just gotten smarter about it, like they've they've 488 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 1: from what I understand, so it's still there, it's just 489 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:14,400 Speaker 1: a little more yeah yeah. Um. But so KSL, which 490 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 1: is a local TV news affiliate, said we're gonna start 491 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 1: our own classified ad service, but we're gonna make it 492 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,399 Speaker 1: really good. You know, how much how much traffic that 493 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,000 Speaker 1: thing gets gets around two hundred fifty to three hundred 494 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 1: million page views a month. Wow. Um. And they have 495 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:30,639 Speaker 1: premium ads which they charge money for. They have this 496 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 1: huge audience which they can monetize. How come nobody else 497 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 1: has challenged Craigslist. That's a really good question because Craigslist 498 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 1: is a really crappy experience. Well it's it's hasn't changed 499 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 1: and has It feels like twenty years old, and it 500 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 1: just feels kind of at least to me, it feels 501 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 1: kind of icky. You know. Now, my daughter is just 502 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 1: moving to Albuquerque. She's she's she's in her mid twenties. 503 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 1: She's Craigslist to find a couple of housemates. They seem 504 00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 1: like really nice kids. I mean, obviously most of the 505 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 1: transactions have on Craigslist are fine, but the overall environment 506 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 1: doesn't really isn't really that conducive. I would think to 507 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 1: a lot of what people want to do in the 508 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: classified ads work world. So I think a lot of 509 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 1: what media companies have assumed, Oh you can't have a 510 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 1: good classified experience, you can't have a paywall. These are 511 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:20,120 Speaker 1: things that became part of the mantra that nobody really 512 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,240 Speaker 1: challenged them, and so it's it's times start challenging some 513 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:28,320 Speaker 1: of those. So clearly Washington Post paywall, New York Times paywall, 514 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 1: bosting Globe paywall, New York Newsday out on Long Island paywall. 515 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:35,960 Speaker 1: So whoever said there's not going to be a paywall 516 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 1: at a certain point when it's free and people would 517 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 1: canceling subscriptions and droves that had to go away, I 518 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 1: think that was inevitable. I'm surprised so many people pushed back. 519 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 1: It doesn't take You don't have to be a math. 520 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 1: Gen used to say, all right, so we're gonna spend 521 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 1: all this money creating content, and we're gonna give it 522 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 1: away and we'll monetize it with band rads. That's not 523 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:00,240 Speaker 1: gonna happen. And even those days they were maybe ten 524 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 1: dollar per thousand banner heads, you know, still not gonna pay. 525 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: There was no projection you would ever generate enough traffic. 526 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 1: It was just you know, this blind faith that don't worry, 527 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 1: it'll get better, or if we don't do this, we're 528 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 1: gonna be outside the conversation. That just simply wasn't true. 529 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 1: So now we have four pay journalism moving behind pay walls. 530 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:22,840 Speaker 1: But then we have the five thirty eight in the 531 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 1: courts in the boxes. Is it they have they're all free? 532 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 1: Do they have just a different cost structure or are 533 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 1: they going to run into the same problem in a 534 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: few years when when the VC funding drives up, are 535 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 1: they gonna have the same issue? So I think the 536 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 1: cost structure is a really big piece of this issue. 537 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 1: I mean, any newspaper these days has they saw printing presses. 538 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 1: They still have trucks, a lot of them have unionized workforces, 539 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 1: you know, and they still have to support the legacy 540 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:52,640 Speaker 1: part of the business because that still brings in seven 541 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 1: or eight percent of the total at revenue coming back 542 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,320 Speaker 1: from from Laguardi. You see the New York Times printing area, 543 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 1: it van Wick, it's this, it's a football field, an 544 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 1: aircraft hangar facility. It looks brand new. It's got a 545 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 1: cost of millions, right, and then they got trucks going 546 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 1: out every day, you know, with unionized drivers and stuff. 547 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:16,719 Speaker 1: Whereas you know, there's this website here in New York 548 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,960 Speaker 1: City called d n A Info, which is kind of 549 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,160 Speaker 1: a weird name for a website. It's actually getting a 550 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 1: lot of traffic. They've had a lot of really good 551 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 1: metro reporters from the New York Daily News. They've been 552 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 1: breaking a lot of stories. They do a lot of 553 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 1: good neighborhood stuff, and they don't have any these legacy costs. 554 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,440 Speaker 1: So it's the structure. The model is that much cheaper. 555 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 1: So so the guys who have run the projections on 556 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 1: the eight and the boxes, Yeah, that's that's they should 557 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:44,040 Speaker 1: be able to make a run of it. Well, keep 558 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,120 Speaker 1: in mind five eight who owns five three eight? Right now? 559 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:52,560 Speaker 1: Barry oh? ESPN? So you know ABC, esp the effective 560 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 1: right if if if it loses a few million dollars 561 00:31:57,320 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 1: here and there, it's a couple of quarters in the 562 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 1: couch cushion, it's all those Uh it's Disney World is subsidizing. 563 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, or ESPN. I mean ESPN is a huge cast. 564 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 1: So you know, um, and Jeff Bezos has bought the 565 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:12,880 Speaker 1: Washington Post. He bought it for two fifty million, which 566 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:16,040 Speaker 1: I think one percent of his net worth. Right, you 567 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,960 Speaker 1: touch on something that's really interesting. Our big media outlets 568 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:23,480 Speaker 1: eventually going to become trophy acquisition. And what was the 569 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:27,800 Speaker 1: Chicago paper, the Chicago Tribune who picked that up? Well, 570 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 1: there was that whole unfortunate period with Sam's l who 571 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,959 Speaker 1: who you know, drove that truck right into the mountain, 572 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:39,360 Speaker 1: And now they're doing a spinoff where they're trying to 573 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:41,560 Speaker 1: extort a big dividend out of the new company. I 574 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:46,400 Speaker 1: actually actually wrote a piece for Representative Henry Waxman about it, right, 575 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:48,720 Speaker 1: said that the La Times was supposedly up for and 576 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:50,960 Speaker 1: the only Time part. But but for example, take the 577 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 1: Boston Globe, okay, so, which was formally owned by the 578 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 1: New York TI exactly. So in the late eighties or 579 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 1: early nineties, the Times paid one point one billion dollars 580 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 1: for Oh my god, I think I think they sold 581 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:05,520 Speaker 1: it for fifty or seventy million plus. And actually I 582 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 1: think that Times had to keep some of the pension obligations. Yeah, so, yeah, right, 583 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 1: how do you lose a billion dollar? You know, it's 584 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,160 Speaker 1: like the old joke by Buffett, how do you become 585 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 1: a millionaire? Started with a billion dollars, then you buy 586 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,360 Speaker 1: an airplane. But so he sold it to John Henry, 587 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 1: who owns the Red Sox and who's committed to local 588 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 1: civic life in Boston, and he has a strong vested 589 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:30,800 Speaker 1: interest in in having a healthy newspaper. At least I 590 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:34,960 Speaker 1: hope he does. So the state of journalism is dependent 591 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 1: on the altruism of billionaires, he says, sitting in Bloomberg's 592 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:44,040 Speaker 1: headquote World Right or some of the philanthropic efforts we've seen. 593 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 1: So Stoker's Pro pub because it was initially funded by 594 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:53,040 Speaker 1: Herban Marion Sandler, you know, from from the countrywide right 595 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,880 Speaker 1: or no, not country. Another mortgage company was the mortgage 596 00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:00,440 Speaker 1: company I know who you're talking about, right, and they 597 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,400 Speaker 1: they just want a couple of Pulitzers. They I mean, 598 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,480 Speaker 1: they're doing amazing work. But Joe Eisinger's piece publishes both 599 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:08,719 Speaker 1: at Pro Publica and The New York Times, right, and 600 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 1: they did the piece on the New Orleans hospital which 601 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:16,280 Speaker 1: ran in the time. I remember that. So the Sandlers 602 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:18,720 Speaker 1: put up ten million dollars a year for a few years, 603 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:21,600 Speaker 1: and now it's a lot of money. I mean, it 604 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,360 Speaker 1: wasn't that much for them, but but I mean generally speaking, 605 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:27,880 Speaker 1: and now they're off raising money elsewhere or Pro public 606 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:31,960 Speaker 1: so so so the Sandlers, actually hurb Sandler's contribution has 607 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:34,800 Speaker 1: been diminished because they've been able to find other sources 608 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:39,279 Speaker 1: of money. So effectively, one aspect of journalism is either 609 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:42,680 Speaker 1: find the sugar daddy or be fortunate enough to have 610 00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 1: someone set up a foundation. And isn't that going on 611 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,600 Speaker 1: with The Guardian in the UK? So, I mean, they're 612 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,720 Speaker 1: a wealthy they're a big foundation. They've done really well, well, 613 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:55,400 Speaker 1: they've just done really well. So they're run by the 614 00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,280 Speaker 1: Scott Trusts, that's called and the Guardian has been losing 615 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:02,080 Speaker 1: money on a pretty a pretty regular basis. And the 616 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 1: Guardian has an amazing digital strategy. We actually were fortunate 617 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:11,280 Speaker 1: at the Journalism school to hire Emily bell Away because 618 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,000 Speaker 1: she was and I think at the time we hired her, 619 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,759 Speaker 1: the Guardian newspaper sold around three hundred thousand copies in 620 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:21,960 Speaker 1: their web audience was thirty million. That's amazing number. And 621 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:23,880 Speaker 1: and that was five years ago. And from what I 622 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:25,960 Speaker 1: understand now, I was just on a panel Earli this 623 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 1: morning with Heidi Moore, who writes for The Guardian, and 624 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:33,719 Speaker 1: she said their web Allian sounds forty is angry at 625 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,600 Speaker 1: me these days? I'm sure, I'm sure you'll make it up. 626 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:39,239 Speaker 1: But anyway, So, so the Scott Trust owned a lot 627 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:43,400 Speaker 1: of Auto Trader, which is this fantastically lucrative thing and 628 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,239 Speaker 1: he sold it for about a billion dollars recently, so 629 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:50,000 Speaker 1: that can be their endowment if you figure five investment 630 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:54,279 Speaker 1: returned the fifty million dollars. And you know, at some 631 00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,200 Speaker 1: point they'll get rid of the presses and they'll go 632 00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:59,840 Speaker 1: to a pure digital operation. May not be you know, 633 00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 1: a time the next few years, at some point they 634 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,080 Speaker 1: will and you can run a pretty nice newsroom for 635 00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:07,279 Speaker 1: fifty million dollars to say the least. So so the 636 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:11,799 Speaker 1: future of of media isn't completely hopeless, no, as long 637 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:14,200 Speaker 1: as there's wealthy people around to fundent. And we are 638 00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:18,520 Speaker 1: seeing some business models emerging where media companies like The 639 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,759 Speaker 1: Atlantic has a really lucrative kind of conference business. Uh. 640 00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:24,320 Speaker 1: You see a lot of woll Street Journal does a 641 00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:27,960 Speaker 1: lot of conferences business inside er is just into that 642 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:30,799 Speaker 1: area exactly. The f t oh, you know, we really 643 00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:35,560 Speaker 1: haven't talked about great story. I love ft alphaville is. 644 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:39,640 Speaker 1: I love that that blog which is outside the fire 645 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:43,640 Speaker 1: the pay wall, but you know, from from our perspective, 646 00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:46,839 Speaker 1: it's a relatively inexpensive pay but like the Wall Street Journal, 647 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 1: it's really and expensive, so we sign up for that 648 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:53,720 Speaker 1: as well. It's a really well regarded, well written paper, 649 00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:58,560 Speaker 1: very credible, very thoughtful. Uh, and they break a lot 650 00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,279 Speaker 1: of stories. But they were they were a little late 651 00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:04,239 Speaker 1: to the game on the digital subscription strategy. But they 652 00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:07,279 Speaker 1: really have when when you look at their digital subscriptions, 653 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:10,200 Speaker 1: they've really done well. Um they've got They're very smart 654 00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:12,960 Speaker 1: about how to market it and and how to target 655 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:16,040 Speaker 1: the marketing campaigns to people who were reading story X 656 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,960 Speaker 1: versus story Why. I have said it's got to be 657 00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,520 Speaker 1: since Murdoch bought the journal, I have said the f 658 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:25,520 Speaker 1: t is really should be the business section of the Times, 659 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:30,319 Speaker 1: and if the Times was in a healthier situation, they 660 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:34,000 Speaker 1: should actually reach out. But they can't. My plan B 661 00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:37,560 Speaker 1: is this guy buys The Times and then buys the 662 00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:41,319 Speaker 1: Ft to fold into it, and then you have a 663 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:47,960 Speaker 1: really dominant global paper, both US and and continental. Well 664 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:49,799 Speaker 1: that would be huge. I don't know if it's gonna 665 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:51,160 Speaker 1: happen to anything. By the way, I give a lot 666 00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:54,960 Speaker 1: of free advice to billionaires. I don't know, because you know, 667 00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:58,800 Speaker 1: buying a newspaper seems like such a smart strategy thousand fourteen. 668 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:02,320 Speaker 1: I don't know what they're thinking. It's not a business investment. 669 00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:05,000 Speaker 1: It's a trophy exactly. The New York Times is a 670 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:07,640 Speaker 1: trophy The Wall Street Journal is a trophy. F T 671 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:10,680 Speaker 1: is a trophy, and obviously the Washington Post, where I 672 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:13,520 Speaker 1: have a column twice a month. Uh. And that's really 673 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,040 Speaker 1: why bizos. You know, you could have called me directly, 674 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:18,640 Speaker 1: could have saved them a lot of money. But um, 675 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:25,400 Speaker 1: it's really the changing dynamics, so I know you have 676 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:27,200 Speaker 1: to go somewhere else. I want to wrap this up 677 00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:31,160 Speaker 1: on a positive note. The future of journalism, the future 678 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:36,320 Speaker 1: of financial reportage and media. Is it going to survive 679 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:39,160 Speaker 1: in some healthy format or is it going to become 680 00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:42,399 Speaker 1: this little thing that's off in the corner. I'm more 681 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,120 Speaker 1: confident about business journalism than really any other part of 682 00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,520 Speaker 1: the journalism world because and we see this when I 683 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:52,640 Speaker 1: was at W dot com. You know we uh, when 684 00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:54,839 Speaker 1: I took over at W dot com have been around 685 00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:56,799 Speaker 1: for about five or six years, they already had about 686 00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:58,960 Speaker 1: half million subscribers. And why I left six years later, 687 00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:01,680 Speaker 1: we had over a million. And you know, I'd like 688 00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:03,400 Speaker 1: to say it is because of our great staff and 689 00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:05,120 Speaker 1: how smart I was and all that, but the truth 690 00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:09,239 Speaker 1: is people can see a direct relationship between paying for 691 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:12,600 Speaker 1: quality news, paying for quality business news and and getting 692 00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:14,680 Speaker 1: something out of it. Right, now, is it just business 693 00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:16,400 Speaker 1: news that people who willing to pay for? Are they 694 00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:19,160 Speaker 1: going to be willing to pay for? I think nonsins 695 00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:23,479 Speaker 1: I think increasingly, as as people want to understand the world, 696 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:26,440 Speaker 1: as we have a more globally connected world, and as 697 00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:32,239 Speaker 1: people realize that there's some relationship between the quality of 698 00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:34,719 Speaker 1: journalists doing the work and the quality of journalism that 699 00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:36,759 Speaker 1: you get out of them, that that there will be 700 00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:40,080 Speaker 1: increasing demand for it. Whether the demand will ramp up 701 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:43,200 Speaker 1: fast enough I don't know, but as you see, if 702 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,080 Speaker 1: you look at kind of any big business when it 703 00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:49,120 Speaker 1: goes through some huge, gut wrenching transformation, there's a lot 704 00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:53,560 Speaker 1: of the messiness along the way, and then eventually something emerges. 705 00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:55,479 Speaker 1: And I think we're seeing some of that emerged now. 706 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,640 Speaker 1: And how long is it going to be before the 707 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:03,640 Speaker 1: unit a verse of of financial news in general media 708 00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:09,360 Speaker 1: um is has find comfortable footing. How long do you 709 00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,879 Speaker 1: think this transitional period is going to be? Are we 710 00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:15,400 Speaker 1: through the worst of it or is there still a 711 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:18,839 Speaker 1: lot more wrenching things to come. I think that we're 712 00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:23,400 Speaker 1: in for a long period of of of this, because 713 00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,879 Speaker 1: you know, there's a Columbia business professor wrote her book 714 00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:30,320 Speaker 1: called the end of competitive advantage as about how barriers 715 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,719 Speaker 1: to entry fall as quickly as as you erect them. 716 00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:35,719 Speaker 1: I mean, in the old days, you would erect a 717 00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:38,000 Speaker 1: barrier to entrying in in your business, and in the 718 00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:41,520 Speaker 1: last five, ten, twenty years now, thanks to technology, as 719 00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:43,719 Speaker 1: soon as you build it, somebody's out there trying to 720 00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,840 Speaker 1: figure out a way around it. So I think what 721 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:50,040 Speaker 1: you need are journalism institutions that are much more nimble, 722 00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:55,400 Speaker 1: much more technologically adept um. We've started at the j School, 723 00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:58,440 Speaker 1: at the Journalism School, training students in computer science and 724 00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:01,680 Speaker 1: coding and data and algor of them because we want 725 00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:04,120 Speaker 1: the next generation of journalists to be much more adept 726 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:07,320 Speaker 1: at this stuff, and to be much more pliable and flexible, 727 00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:09,680 Speaker 1: and to have the kind of dexterity to deal with 728 00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:13,400 Speaker 1: unending technological change. You know what, I would be remiss 729 00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:14,600 Speaker 1: and I know you have to run. I would be 730 00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:20,880 Speaker 1: remiss if I didn't mention recode Mosburg right, the two 731 00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:25,319 Speaker 1: technical Walt Mossburg is a legend at in technology at 732 00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:29,560 Speaker 1: the Journal. That's just another example of no legacy costs. 733 00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:33,600 Speaker 1: Launch a new model and immediately immediately hit the ground 734 00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:37,040 Speaker 1: and and with traction and gained an audience. And it 735 00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:40,960 Speaker 1: also shows the power of individual brands. So if you're 736 00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:43,520 Speaker 1: I don't know how many Twitter followers karro Switcher had 737 00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:46,080 Speaker 1: at the time that she left out Jones and started 738 00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:47,480 Speaker 1: her own business, but I'm sure it was in the 739 00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:51,360 Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands. So when she went from the journal 740 00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:54,759 Speaker 1: to her new business, she took those followers with her. 741 00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:56,520 Speaker 1: In the old days, if we went from the Wall 742 00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:59,319 Speaker 1: Street Journal to the New York Times, your readers state 743 00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:02,520 Speaker 1: at the Wall Street starting over. Isn't that interesting? And 744 00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:05,239 Speaker 1: think about the kind of incentives that creates for journalists 745 00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:08,279 Speaker 1: these days. If you can create your own audience, you 746 00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:11,040 Speaker 1: can basically take that with you anywhere you go, and 747 00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:13,719 Speaker 1: so that increases, you know, the incentives to do it, 748 00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:15,960 Speaker 1: and it means that you have a lot more individual 749 00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:20,000 Speaker 1: control over your career. And so the future isn't bleak 750 00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:23,640 Speaker 1: for journalists at all. And the future of the media 751 00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:26,719 Speaker 1: is going to be different than it is today. But 752 00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:29,560 Speaker 1: there's reasons for optimism. And you know, there's a lot 753 00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:31,919 Speaker 1: of great stuff to read online. And when you think 754 00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:35,120 Speaker 1: about you're sitting there with an uh your iPhone at 755 00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:38,520 Speaker 1: the doctor's office and in waiting half an hour you're 756 00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:42,120 Speaker 1: not reading you know, US News and World Report from 757 00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:44,680 Speaker 1: four weeks ago, where readers digest from last month. You 758 00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:48,839 Speaker 1: have access to literally thousands or millions of sources the world, 759 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:51,160 Speaker 1: the entire world. I mean, isn't that a good thing? 760 00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:54,880 Speaker 1: It isn't there something good about that? And you know, 761 00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:57,239 Speaker 1: over time we will figure out how the businesses. We're 762 00:42:57,239 --> 00:43:00,680 Speaker 1: always seeing some business models emerging. And opportunity to be 763 00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:03,800 Speaker 1: able to sit at yourdentist's office and read the Johannesburg 764 00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:06,920 Speaker 1: newspaper or listen to a radio station from Prague, or 765 00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:10,759 Speaker 1: read your kid's blog all on the same device. There's 766 00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:14,080 Speaker 1: something good about that. I think there's something fantastic about it. Well, 767 00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:17,000 Speaker 1: that's an optimistic note we should end on. We should 768 00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:19,560 Speaker 1: always end on an optimistic That's right. I've been speaking 769 00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:22,600 Speaker 1: with Bill Gruskin, formerly of the Wall Street Journal, now 770 00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:25,320 Speaker 1: with the Colombia School of Journalism. Bill, thank you so 771 00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:26,880 Speaker 1: much for coming. Thank you, bry. This was a lot 772 00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:29,319 Speaker 1: of fun. Yeah, this has been great and we'll see 773 00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:33,160 Speaker 1: you again next week. You're listening to Masters in Business 774 00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:35,800 Speaker 1: with Berry rid Holts on Bloomberg Radio.