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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Just a heads up. This episode contains descriptions of violence.

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Speaker 1: Please take care while listening. I want to shake hands

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Speaker 1: with him, and I'm pushed away. You can't shake hands

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Speaker 1: because you're not a friend. You are an enemy, so

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Speaker 1: please go back. That's Betty Bigombei, a former Ugandan minister,

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Speaker 1: describing the moment in nineteen ninety three when she came

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Speaker 1: face to face with a notorious warlord. She met up

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Speaker 1: with him in an effort to broke her peace in

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Speaker 1: Northern Uganda, a part of the country that was plagued

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Speaker 1: by violence and war. Those moments when I felt really,

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Speaker 1: really scared, and I didn't want to show that I

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Speaker 1: was very scared, but I was deep down in my

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Speaker 1: heart my goodness, if only they knew. But on the surface,

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Speaker 1: I was very calm, very smooth. Begged my voice not

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Speaker 1: to tremble any moment. And what language do I deploy?

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Speaker 1: A motherly language because maybe and maybe that can touch

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Speaker 1: his heart and soul and look at me as a

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Speaker 1: protector as opposed to an enemy, that he begone. Based

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Speaker 1: story is as much about changing the world as it

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Speaker 1: is a personal story of change. On today's episode, one

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Speaker 1: woman's approach to unlocking peace in the enemy. I am

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Speaker 1: maya Shunker and this is a slight change of plans,

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Speaker 1: a show about who we are and who we become

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Speaker 1: in the face of a big change. Betty's story unfolds

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen eighties in Uganda. That's when the country's

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Speaker 1: president Yuwari msseveny asked Betty to take on a seemingly

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Speaker 1: impossible mission in northern Uganda, where war had broken out.

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Speaker 1: Betty was a government minister at the time, and Museveni

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Speaker 1: wanted her to try and persuade rebels to put down

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Speaker 1: their weapons and bring an end to the violence. Betty

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Speaker 1: was aware of the profound danger that might lie ahead

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Speaker 1: for her. She had no formal training in conflict resolution,

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Speaker 1: and Joseph Coney, the rebel leader responsible for so much

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Speaker 1: violence in the north, was a crazed warlord. He enslaved

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Speaker 1: women and girls and abducted tens of thousands of children

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Speaker 1: and turned them into child's soldiers to fight his war. So,

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Speaker 1: when Museveni asked Betty to go on this dangerous mission

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Speaker 1: and leave behind her young family in the safety at home,

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Speaker 1: she wanted to know why was he choosing her. He said, well,

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Speaker 1: I just need somebody that I can trust, that can

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Speaker 1: tell the people of northern Uganda to persuade their children

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Speaker 1: to put down their weapons. And Betty, why did you

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Speaker 1: agree to say yes to this? I mean it was

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Speaker 1: incredibly dangerous situation that you were entering into. Well, first

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Speaker 1: of all, you must know our mentality. I was at

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Speaker 1: the time already a government minister. How dare you say

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Speaker 1: no to your president when he instructs you to do something.

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Speaker 1: So I felt there for then that I had to

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Speaker 1: do it. I had a lot of fear deep down

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Speaker 1: in my heart. Plus I also I had small young children.

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Speaker 1: My daughter was just about two years old, and so

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Speaker 1: here I was as to go and in a war zone.

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Speaker 1: You know, I feel like you're not giving yourself enough

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Speaker 1: credit for the decision that you made. And the reason

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Speaker 1: I say that is you know, you had been asked,

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Speaker 1: you'd been appointed a minister by the president, and you

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Speaker 1: actually resigned from that particular job because you felt it

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Speaker 1: was an action oriented enough right, that you were basically

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Speaker 1: just pushing paper, and that you really wanted to get

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Speaker 1: in the trenches and make as big a difference as

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Speaker 1: you possibly could. Maybe my resignation at that time did

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Speaker 1: contribute to this in the sense that I went to

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Speaker 1: him and I said, look, I cannot do crossword puzzle

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Speaker 1: in the office, neither can I do Can I read

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Speaker 1: novels like I see other people do? I want work

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Speaker 1: and if you cannot give me real work, then I'm

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Speaker 1: out of here. And African ministers don't resign. So it

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Speaker 1: was kind of a shock to him to hear somebody

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Speaker 1: threatening to resign because I had all this energy and

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Speaker 1: desire to perform. You know, many of your friends called

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Speaker 1: this a suicidal mission and they urged you to reconsider

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Speaker 1: your choice. Well, there were people who said, look, he

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Speaker 1: wants you did why should he pick you, a woman

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Speaker 1: young at the time with a young family, to go

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Speaker 1: and do this. So there were lots of discouraging talks.

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Speaker 1: But I must also add in here that there had

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Speaker 1: been wars in Uganda, had gone through wars and other

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Speaker 1: civil strife, but I had never been assigned the responsibility

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Speaker 1: to bring it to an end. So that kind of

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Speaker 1: in a way inspired me too. If I can go

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Speaker 1: and end this conflict and my people can go back home,

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Speaker 1: get away from squalid comes and leave indignity, even if

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Speaker 1: it's poverty. But like any other person. I set myself

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Speaker 1: a deadline that I must end this war in six

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Speaker 1: months low and behold, when I got there, it was

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Speaker 1: a completely different story. Betty moves to Kulu, one of

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Speaker 1: the largest cities in Northern Uganda, to meet the people

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Speaker 1: there and figure out how to end the violence. Since

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Speaker 1: Northern Uganda had been Betty's home, she thought she would

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Speaker 1: be well respected. But when she arrives at the camps

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Speaker 1: in Gulu as a government official, she's met with a

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Speaker 1: very different response. I was dismissed by many people at first.

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Speaker 1: Of all, there were those who said, well, she's never

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Speaker 1: faced the gun, so she will run away. It won't

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Speaker 1: be long before she runs away. There were those who

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Speaker 1: say it, well, I mean the same story. Why a woman,

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Speaker 1: this is a male domain. She cannot do anything. So

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Speaker 1: in African community, when a woman is given such responsibility,

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Speaker 1: she must be a girlfriend. You don't earn it, there

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Speaker 1: must be some kind of relationship between you. So there

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Speaker 1: were those who felt, well, nobody goes to that place anyway,

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Speaker 1: not even government our officials. So probably he just wanted

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Speaker 1: her way where he can have access to her any time.

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Speaker 1: I also had inferior to complex inferiority complex that nobody

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Speaker 1: knew me, nobody knew my family. My family was not

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Speaker 1: one of those prominent families that were known. So reaction

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Speaker 1: was wish she who is this ah? And I still

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Speaker 1: remember one elder saying that, well, if miss Severne wanted

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Speaker 1: to end the war, he could have appointed somebody from

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Speaker 1: a prominent family and not an nonentity whom nobody knew

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Speaker 1: where she came from. The only thing I had on

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Speaker 1: my side was that I had gone to the best

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Speaker 1: schools in the country. I had graduated from university. Just

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Speaker 1: the fact that I had to introduce myself who I

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Speaker 1: was was not an easy exercise. I'd like to hear

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Speaker 1: about what it was that you were confronted with in

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Speaker 1: those first few days in northern Uganda. Can you set

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Speaker 1: the scene for people who might not know what the

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Speaker 1: state of affairs was like? What I was confronted with

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Speaker 1: voice was really traumatizing was going into these quality camps

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Speaker 1: and finding people living in a situation that is difficult

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Speaker 1: to describe. But what even traumatized me more was to

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Speaker 1: find people who were immaginated children, little babies suckling breasts

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Speaker 1: from mothers who had no milk whatsoever, not even water.

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Speaker 1: You could see their heads, you could see the count

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Speaker 1: their ribs. Sometimes the number of children who were dying

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Speaker 1: was just I couldn't even count them. And I'd never

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Speaker 1: come face to face with people starving to death. So

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Speaker 1: that was spiritually wrenching. And probably I could say that

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Speaker 1: this really inspired me too, that it has to come

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Speaker 1: to an end. And when I walked into the camps,

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Speaker 1: it gives people some hope that they is somebody, an

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Speaker 1: official of the government, who probably will talk to government

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Speaker 1: so that we can get food, so that she could

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Speaker 1: talk to the international community, so that we could get

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Speaker 1: some means of livelihood. You know, you mentioned that you

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Speaker 1: were met with a lot of skepticism, right, yes, How

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Speaker 1: do you work to build credibility and trust in the

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Speaker 1: people that you were interacting with. I developed a culture

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Speaker 1: of not lecturing to people that people I had grievances

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Speaker 1: they needed to talk. I encourage to them. I said,

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Speaker 1: if you want to insult me, go ahead and do it.

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Speaker 1: If you want to insult the president, do it anything.

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Speaker 1: But what I want is to bring peace. So I

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Speaker 1: would sit and listen and listen for hours, and the

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Speaker 1: most important thing to build that trust for people to

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Speaker 1: realize that you're serious. You're there for them, to mourn

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Speaker 1: with them, to grieve with them, and not just stay

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Speaker 1: in town, but go and stay in the camps with them,

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Speaker 1: so that when they're hungry, you're so hungry you're not

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Speaker 1: going to take something special for yourself. And this was

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Speaker 1: very instrumental in confidence building and trust building by the people,

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Speaker 1: because then I demonstrated some kind of seriousness. Then people think, okay,

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Speaker 1: if she can stay with us in the camp and

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Speaker 1: it what we're eating, then she must be committed. I

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Speaker 1: was very determined to prove my metal. That's decision to

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Speaker 1: stay at the various camps carries unbelievable risk. The camps

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Speaker 1: were scattered all over the region and rebels were routinely

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Speaker 1: raiding them and murdering civilians. I went through land mines

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Speaker 1: planted for me. A pickup truck that was carrying civilians

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Speaker 1: was blown up, and I still remember vividly picking up

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Speaker 1: a three year old baby where the mother was killed

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Speaker 1: by the landmine and picking up this baby and other

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Speaker 1: wounded people. And of course, the other thing which was

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Speaker 1: very traumatizing was that each time the rebels attacked a

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Speaker 1: camp to abduct and kill people. I had to be

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Speaker 1: the first person on the scene. The most painful thing

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Speaker 1: where was mothers, parents running to me and say, please

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Speaker 1: save our children have been abducted, Our loved ones have

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Speaker 1: been killed. Could you help to bury them? And the

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Speaker 1: painful thing was I knew I could not save them,

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Speaker 1: but I had to give them hope. You want them

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Speaker 1: to continue to be resilient. That he spends close to

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Speaker 1: a year living among the people at the camps, working

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Speaker 1: to build trust with civilians and key players in the region.

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Speaker 1: But there's one person that he has yet to meet

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Speaker 1: face to face, the rebel leader Joseph Coney. Coney was

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Speaker 1: the leader of the Lord's Resistance Army or l R,

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Speaker 1: and he believed that he received messages directly from God.

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Speaker 1: With Coney in charge, the LRA committed countless atrocities against

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Speaker 1: the people of Northern Uganda, including murder, beatings, abductions, mutilations,

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Speaker 1: and wraith. Betty, what had you heard about Joseph Coney

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Speaker 1: at that time? Horrible things. I'd seen people whose lips

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Speaker 1: had been cut, noses have been cut, ears have been

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Speaker 1: chopped off, private parts cut off. This monster, I'd heard

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Speaker 1: a lot about him. There were a few people who

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Speaker 1: managed to escape and would tell me what kind of

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Speaker 1: person he was. They all believed that he had supernatural power,

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Speaker 1: that he was talking to go directly, and whatever he

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Speaker 1: predicted did car did happen later. I'd also heard from

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Speaker 1: some of the wives the girls who had been captured,

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Speaker 1: and he would have shall be crude and say sex

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Speaker 1: with at least six in one night. So I'd heard

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Speaker 1: all these horrible stories about him. So in my mind,

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Speaker 1: was this monster that you even think sometimes he had Houns. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: at one point you received a death threat from Connie's army. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and the letter said that the rebels were going to

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Speaker 1: kill you, right, I still have that letter. The letter

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Speaker 1: came barely two months after I had been in and

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Speaker 1: was that get out of here as soon as possible.

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Speaker 1: If you don't, we're going to kill you. This is

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Speaker 1: a male domain, So if you don't get out of here,

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Speaker 1: we have a way of getting you. We know where

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Speaker 1: you stay and we can follow you anywhere. And when

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Speaker 1: you saw the content of the letter, what led you

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Speaker 1: to stay? Ah One in institution like that, you don't

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Speaker 1: want to show that you're a coward. That's one. Two.

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Speaker 1: Having seen what I had seen, How could I desert

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Speaker 1: and live children dropping dead like flies? How could I

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Speaker 1: desert people who were dying of treatable diseases. It would

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Speaker 1: be highly immoral. In fact, I still remember one meets

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Speaker 1: the one a public rally I went for in one

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Speaker 1: of the camps, and as I was talking, the bodyguards

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Speaker 1: I went with came to me and said, the rebels approaching.

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Speaker 1: And I could see people around me slowly disappearing, and

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Speaker 1: I could see also the soldier government troops were terribly scared.

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Speaker 1: But I told them if we run away, what message

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Speaker 1: is it going to send to the rebels. Of course,

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Speaker 1: my heart was beating like crazy, about to pop out

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Speaker 1: of my chest, but I had to exhibit courage at

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Speaker 1: that point in time. So I told them We're going

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Speaker 1: to go, but we're going to move very very slowly,

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Speaker 1: so that it does not send a message of panic

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Speaker 1: to the population, because tomorrow it will be all o

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Speaker 1: our places that Betty run away from the rebels. How

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Speaker 1: would it be perceived then the next time? How can

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Speaker 1: I face people again if I did that. Betty's work

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Speaker 1: to establish herself as a leader and to build trust

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Speaker 1: in the community proves effective. She's tipped off to the

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Speaker 1: fact Coney might be located somewhere nearby, But rather than flee,

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Speaker 1: Betty decides she wants to engage with Coney directly. She

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Speaker 1: sends him a letter and addresses him in a rather

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Speaker 1: unique way. You know, it says so much to me

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Speaker 1: about the nature of your peacemaking that when you reached

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Speaker 1: out to Coney, you referred to him as your son,

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Speaker 1: and you appealed to your united belief in the same God.

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Speaker 1: And look, Betty, it was extremely effective because that led

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Speaker 1: him to initiate a direct meeting with you. Is that right? Right?

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Speaker 1: At that time, what I wanted to find out would

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Speaker 1: be stalk be possible, and so my approach was then

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Speaker 1: meeting and trying to understand he's mindset. Betty's approach works.

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Speaker 1: Coney agrees to meet her face to face, more than

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Speaker 1: sixteen miles deep in the jungle. She's told she can

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Speaker 1: bring six people with her as long as none of

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Speaker 1: them are armed. So I thought of who the six

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Speaker 1: people I could take with me, knowing how dangerous it was,

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Speaker 1: I even contemplated taking poison with me, because just in

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Speaker 1: case it became very dangerous, I didn't want to be

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Speaker 1: tortured I'd rather get myself killed instantly. So I went

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Speaker 1: to religious leaders. Since he has this fanatic religious belief.

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Speaker 1: So I went to the Castolic bishop. Was it fantastic,

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Speaker 1: will come with you. I went to the Anglican bishop.

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Speaker 1: We said we need peace, will come with you. I

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Speaker 1: went to the Muslim and I said, I want two

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Speaker 1: two two of each. That was two weeks before, and

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Speaker 1: please please, nobody must tell anybody about this mission. And

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Speaker 1: they all promised nothing would happen. But in the day

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Speaker 1: finally arrives all of them cancel. The Catholic bishop sent

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Speaker 1: me a letter and say it we pray for you.

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Speaker 1: It's time to bring peace, but we cannot come with you.

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Speaker 1: Good be with you. The Anglican escaped to compele A city.

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Speaker 1: The Muslim said, I have darya, I have malaria. I

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Speaker 1: can't come with you. So that moment in time, I

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Speaker 1: was very scared. So I debated within myself do I

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Speaker 1: abort this mission or do I go. Eventually I wrote

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Speaker 1: to my family, this is going to happen. I may

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Speaker 1: not make it back, wrote to President of seventy said mays,

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Speaker 1: children must get educated. And then I set off, knowing

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Speaker 1: how dangerous it was Betty makes her way through the jungle,

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Speaker 1: and she knows she's being watched. Tony's soldiers are hidden

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Speaker 1: throughout sum up in trees, monitoring her movements. You had

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Speaker 1: all these child soldiers. Obviously AK forty seven was too

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Speaker 1: heavy for them and too tall, too tall for them,

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Speaker 1: And yet one was behind me, one in front, one

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Speaker 1: on left and right side of me. Ah. Suddenly I'm walking,

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Speaker 1: and one elderly man popped out with sheer butter oil

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Speaker 1: oliver and splash it all over me, reciting something. If

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Speaker 1: you have bad intentions, can this wash this away so

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Speaker 1: that you don't hurt us. So at that point in time,

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Speaker 1: I stopped and I said what is this you're doing?

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Speaker 1: And one of their another commander, popped out and said, oh,

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Speaker 1: please forget this. They don't know what is going on.

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Speaker 1: We want these pistocks to succeed. Please persevere. So I continued,

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Speaker 1: and then out of nowhere another one pops out and

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Speaker 1: holds me by my neck, and again I said, I

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Speaker 1: am not going anywhere. If you want to kill me,

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Speaker 1: you can now kill me. Here Again, another commander comes

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Speaker 1: and persuades me. Now we are not very far from

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Speaker 1: the venue. Please let's continue the big man that would

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Speaker 1: call him will be coming soon. And it was just

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Speaker 1: I was totally overwhelmed. There was jumping, there was shouting,

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Speaker 1: there was screaming that the demon is coming out. There

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Speaker 1: was laughter from some distance. Then finally he comes in.

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Speaker 1: So I go like, I want to shake hands with him,

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Speaker 1: and I'm pushed away. You can't shake hands because you're

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Speaker 1: not a friend, you are an enemy, so please go back.

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Speaker 1: Then he introduced his senior commanders. We said whatever they

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Speaker 1: wanted to say. Then eventually it was him. We started

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Speaker 1: talking and he talked for about four hours that first meeting,

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Speaker 1: and then I responded very briefly, basically praising God, speaking

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Speaker 1: the same language as him. Then what happened was because

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Speaker 1: bestead late, it was dark. All we could see where fireflies.

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Speaker 1: Then he decided said we haven't concluded anything. We haven't

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Speaker 1: even started talking, so you're not going anywhere. You're going

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Speaker 1: to spend the night here so that tomorrow we can

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Speaker 1: resume the talks early in the morning. Again, my heart

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Speaker 1: was about to burst to come out of my chest,

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Speaker 1: but I kept very calm and I said, again, this

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Speaker 1: is God's which God is great. However, I want you

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Speaker 1: to know that I am your mother, but I'm also

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Speaker 1: a government official. Now, if government soldiers wait for me

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Speaker 1: on the other side and I don't show up, they

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Speaker 1: will think this problem. They will storm this place and

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Speaker 1: fighting will break out and we'll probably will all die,

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Speaker 1: and then there will be no more pistocks. So he said,

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Speaker 1: you're right, we have consulted. You're right. That could happen again.

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Speaker 1: I said, praise God, your fantast good is fantastic. Allelujah. Amen,

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Speaker 1: this is now. You have to be to act like

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Speaker 1: your obsess too. Amen, this is fantastic. And in my heart,

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Speaker 1: what is coming next? Eventually he said, you're right, you

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Speaker 1: can go. We'll be back in a moment. With a

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Speaker 1: slight change of plans, Betty Begombey manages to make it

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Speaker 1: out at that first meeting with Joseph Coney alive, and

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Speaker 1: she goes on to meet with him five more times

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Speaker 1: over the next year and a half, and even though

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Speaker 1: he's responsible for countless atrocities, Betty chooses not to treat

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Speaker 1: him like the enemy. You've mentioned that you focused on

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Speaker 1: using the language of a mother rather than of a

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Speaker 1: militant when you engage with him. Do you mind sharing

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Speaker 1: more about that choice? I mean I must have taken

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Speaker 1: I guess my question is motivated by the idea that

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Speaker 1: you're sitting in front of this monstrous human and you're

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Speaker 1: trying to maintain your composure, but you seem to have

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Speaker 1: also had the cognitive wherewithal to be strategic in the

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Speaker 1: way that you were interacting with him. And so I'm

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Speaker 1: just trying to dig into that a bit more. If

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Speaker 1: I could you, my son, then that means I'm going

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Speaker 1: to protect you. A mother cannot be a danger to

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Speaker 1: her child or children. A mother will provide protection. So

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Speaker 1: the whole thing was here, I am your mother. Well,

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Speaker 1: all I want is for you to be safe, and

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Speaker 1: people to be safe, and people to live in dignity.

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Speaker 1: So those moments when I felt really, really scared, and

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Speaker 1: I didn't want to show that I was very scared,

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Speaker 1: but I was deep down in my heart, my goodness,

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Speaker 1: if only they knew. But on the surface, I was

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00:25:50,076 --> 00:25:55,236
Speaker 1: very calm, very smooth, begged my voice not to tremble

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Speaker 1: any moment. And what language do I deploy? A motherly

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Speaker 1: language because maybe and maybe that can touch his heart

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Speaker 1: and soul and look at me as a protector as

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Speaker 1: opposed to an enemy. Betty continues to connect with Coney

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Speaker 1: on a personal level, and in doing so, she makes

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Speaker 1: great progress towards peace. She's so successful that Coney ends

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Speaker 1: up calling her mummy Bigombe, and remarkably, one year after

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Speaker 1: that first meeting deep in the jungle, Coney agrees to

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Speaker 1: enter into peace talks. A date and venue to sign

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00:26:37,716 --> 00:26:40,956
Speaker 1: a peace agreement are agreed upon, and Betty rushes to

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Speaker 1: President Museveni to tell him the news. But Museveni has

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Speaker 1: changed his mind and cancels the continuation of the peace process,

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Speaker 1: opting for a military solution instead. Coney and his rebel

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Speaker 1: army respond by attacking a small village and killing hundreds

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Speaker 1: of people. I was so totally traumatized by the killing,

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00:27:01,916 --> 00:27:06,276
Speaker 1: the massacre that took place of innocent people. I was

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00:27:06,396 --> 00:27:11,796
Speaker 1: so heartbroken. That was niceeen ninety four, Betty ends up

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00:27:11,836 --> 00:27:14,716
Speaker 1: stepping away for some time. She says she needs some

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00:27:14,836 --> 00:27:18,236
Speaker 1: breathing space, some distance from the tragedy that's just occurred.

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00:27:19,116 --> 00:27:21,996
Speaker 1: Betty ends up joining the World Bank, but just as

368
00:27:22,036 --> 00:27:23,996
Speaker 1: she's getting ready to leave on a work trip in

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00:27:24,076 --> 00:27:26,716
Speaker 1: two thousand and four, she catches a glimpse of a

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00:27:26,836 --> 00:27:30,476
Speaker 1: CNN segment that shows scenes of the continued violence taking

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Speaker 1: place in Northern Uganda. Here was CNN breaking news. The

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Speaker 1: Lord's Resistance army went into a camp in Northern Uganda,

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Speaker 1: killed over three hundred people, somewhere hacked to death, somewhere

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Speaker 1: shot dead as they were running away. Here I am

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Speaker 1: getting ready to travel this breaking news. The only person

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00:27:55,276 --> 00:28:00,756
Speaker 1: who almost ended the war was Betty Bobe. She met

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Speaker 1: the rebel leader. She did as I did that on CNN.

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Speaker 1: I couldn't believe it. So I thought this was a calling.

379
00:28:09,356 --> 00:28:13,316
Speaker 1: I'm going back. I'm quitting my job. So I did,

380
00:28:14,356 --> 00:28:18,836
Speaker 1: returned in two thousand and four and initiated another round

381
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Speaker 1: of peastocks. And I went and told President mis Sevine,

382
00:28:23,956 --> 00:28:29,876
Speaker 1: but please, this is true, said crazy group without any

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00:28:29,996 --> 00:28:34,076
Speaker 1: clear political ideology. But we have to talk to them.

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Speaker 1: Astonished to your image because it is believed that you

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00:28:39,116 --> 00:28:42,476
Speaker 1: don't want to want them in the war. Put yourself

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00:28:42,516 --> 00:28:47,076
Speaker 1: in the shoes of the parents in Northern Uganda whose

387
00:28:47,276 --> 00:28:51,836
Speaker 1: children get abducted and they helplessly cry and look, and

388
00:28:51,996 --> 00:28:55,236
Speaker 1: some of them lose their children. Forever. You love your children,

389
00:28:55,436 --> 00:28:59,716
Speaker 1: they also love their children. The grandparents in Northern Uganda

390
00:28:59,796 --> 00:29:05,396
Speaker 1: are in scholid calms. The elders have lost their dignity.

391
00:29:06,676 --> 00:29:09,436
Speaker 1: They're not like your father is living in dignity. Put

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00:29:09,516 --> 00:29:13,436
Speaker 1: yourself into that shoes. Lets have no problem. Please, if

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00:29:13,476 --> 00:29:17,356
Speaker 1: you can reach out to them, do And so with

394
00:29:17,476 --> 00:29:21,156
Speaker 1: mis seventies Blessing, Betty attempts to restart the peace process

395
00:29:21,356 --> 00:29:26,276
Speaker 1: with the LRA. Those negotiations ultimately break down, but Betty's

396
00:29:26,316 --> 00:29:29,196
Speaker 1: work helps the government set the stage for more successful

397
00:29:29,236 --> 00:29:32,396
Speaker 1: peace talks. A year later, and although the agreement is

398
00:29:32,436 --> 00:29:35,636
Speaker 1: never signed, the LRA agrees to give up nearly all

399
00:29:35,716 --> 00:29:39,196
Speaker 1: their weapons in land and considerably shrinks down in size.

400
00:29:40,516 --> 00:29:42,716
Speaker 1: I think what's so important about your story, Betty, is

401
00:29:42,756 --> 00:29:49,716
Speaker 1: that it speaks to incremental progress. You're absolutely right. It's

402
00:29:49,756 --> 00:29:56,076
Speaker 1: about having that determination that it can happen. It must happen,

403
00:29:56,516 --> 00:29:59,956
Speaker 1: but it takes a lot. There will be challenges. You run,

404
00:30:00,116 --> 00:30:03,236
Speaker 1: you fall down, you get up and start again, and

405
00:30:03,356 --> 00:30:07,196
Speaker 1: you fall down. And that is very typical of all

406
00:30:08,516 --> 00:30:15,956
Speaker 1: conflict resolution exercises. When people have when blood has been shared,

407
00:30:17,076 --> 00:30:26,676
Speaker 1: when this deep seated distrust, when so much negative things

408
00:30:26,756 --> 00:30:30,236
Speaker 1: have gone under the waters, it's not something that you'll

409
00:30:30,276 --> 00:30:33,876
Speaker 1: say shake hands now your brother and sister, you can

410
00:30:33,956 --> 00:30:42,436
Speaker 1: now go home and live together, happy, happy ever after. Pert. Yeah,

411
00:30:42,516 --> 00:30:46,516
Speaker 1: one final question for you. Um. We've we've talked today

412
00:30:46,676 --> 00:30:49,396
Speaker 1: about how it is that you change the world, and

413
00:30:50,316 --> 00:30:52,236
Speaker 1: I want to know how the set of experience has

414
00:30:52,396 --> 00:31:01,676
Speaker 1: changed you. Oh it really has. Um. I want to

415
00:31:01,716 --> 00:31:05,276
Speaker 1: be where there is a war. When I see on

416
00:31:05,436 --> 00:31:12,756
Speaker 1: television screen children in yem in Syria, the women, I

417
00:31:12,916 --> 00:31:17,036
Speaker 1: want to be there. Maybe I cannot end the conflict,

418
00:31:17,076 --> 00:31:20,596
Speaker 1: but give them hope. Maybe they're ways of saving lives

419
00:31:22,156 --> 00:31:27,076
Speaker 1: of people, and maybe reaching out the factions and trying

420
00:31:27,116 --> 00:31:30,636
Speaker 1: to talk to them some kind of sense. Maybe I

421
00:31:30,716 --> 00:31:56,156
Speaker 1: can give some people ideas. Hey, thanks for listening. Join

422
00:31:56,236 --> 00:31:58,876
Speaker 1: me next week. When I talked to Chaparral Wells, a

423
00:31:58,996 --> 00:32:03,596
Speaker 1: mother from Chicago whose son Courtney Copeland was murdered, Chaparral

424
00:32:03,716 --> 00:32:07,156
Speaker 1: launched her own investigation to find out what actually happened

425
00:32:07,236 --> 00:32:11,116
Speaker 1: in his final moments. It wasn't by choice. I had

426
00:32:11,196 --> 00:32:13,916
Speaker 1: no other option. I needed to know why and I

427
00:32:14,036 --> 00:32:17,396
Speaker 1: needed to know how, how did these things occur? What happened?

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Speaker 1: And I had to try to uncover whatever I could.

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Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans is created written an executive

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Speaker 1: produce by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change family includes

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Speaker 1: Tyler Greene, our senior producer, Jen Guerra, our senior editor,

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Speaker 1: Ben Taliday, our sound engineer, Emily Rostek our associate producer,

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Speaker 1: and Neil Lavelle, our executive producer. Louis Skara wrote our

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Speaker 1: theme song and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A

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Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries,

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Speaker 1: So big thanks to everyone there, including Malcolm Gladwell, Jacob Weisberg,

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Speaker 1: Lee Tall Mulatt and Heather Fame and of course a

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Speaker 1: very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow us

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Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker.

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Speaker 1: See you next week