WEBVTT - Billy Bragg 0:00:03.920 --> 0:00:08.520 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome to The Bob Left Set's podcast. My 0:00:08.600 --> 0:00:15.000 guest today is singer political rock auteur Troubadoor Billy Brag 0:00:15.680 --> 0:00:19.319 Billy Glad to have you here. Okay, now, you're in 0:00:19.560 --> 0:00:23.800 here for a three nights stand at the Troubadoor, and 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:27.040 each night is different material. Can you explain that? Yeah, 0:00:27.120 --> 0:00:32.200 it's really something that I developed over the last eighteen months. 0:00:32.800 --> 0:00:35.440 Last time I came through town through Los Angeles, I 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:37.680 was on a fly plate too, which is basically every 0:00:37.760 --> 0:00:41.599 day you fly and play. That's hard than it used 0:00:41.640 --> 0:00:43.640 to be. I mean partly because I'm over sixty now, 0:00:43.680 --> 0:00:46.400 so it's harder than me. Let's just be clear, how 0:00:46.440 --> 0:00:51.920 old are you? Sixty one? But also the airlines don't 0:00:51.920 --> 0:00:53.720 operate the way they used to it. I think it's 0:00:53.760 --> 0:00:58.880 a mixture of um, the corporate attitude, but also the 0:00:59.000 --> 0:01:02.200 weather is much more inclement than it used to be, 0:01:02.280 --> 0:01:05.200 and it only takes a storm in the Midwest to 0:01:05.360 --> 0:01:07.360 knock their schedules out a little bit and you're in 0:01:07.480 --> 0:01:10.000 danger of losing a gig. I know agents who won't 0:01:10.080 --> 0:01:14.120 book bands who've played in Nashville a gig the very 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:17.320 next day in New York, because the possibility of them 0:01:17.360 --> 0:01:20.600 missing the gig because the flights are canceled is too high. 0:01:21.000 --> 0:01:24.440 So when you take all that into account, UM you 0:01:24.520 --> 0:01:28.399 need to try and think about new way of touring. 0:01:28.600 --> 0:01:33.280 And for me UM, I got invited to play at 0:01:33.319 --> 0:01:36.400 the Horseshoe Tavern in Toronto a couple of years ago 0:01:36.520 --> 0:01:40.040 three nights stand there for their seventy five I think 0:01:40.040 --> 0:01:42.720 seventy fifth anniversary. I used to play there a lot 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:45.240 in the eighties, and I came up with this idea 0:01:45.280 --> 0:01:48.760 that the first night I would play my current touring set, 0:01:48.800 --> 0:01:52.279 which is a you know songs right across my career, 0:01:52.600 --> 0:01:54.840 the tour, the show I did last night I was 0:01:54.880 --> 0:01:56.200 in town, the show I would do if I was 0:01:56.240 --> 0:01:59.120 just doing one night in a city. But on the 0:01:59.200 --> 0:02:02.320 second night, I would only play songs from my first 0:02:02.400 --> 0:02:06.160 three albums. Just for those who were uninitiated, how many 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:11.040 albums do you have? Double twelve? So just from the 0:02:11.040 --> 0:02:13.160 first three years US three, yes, So that would take 0:02:13.160 --> 0:02:15.639 me up to about night and eight six. And then 0:02:15.840 --> 0:02:18.280 on the third night, the final night, I would only 0:02:18.320 --> 0:02:21.280 play songs from my second three albums, so that would 0:02:21.880 --> 0:02:27.320 take me up to so classic early brag and then 0:02:27.360 --> 0:02:30.480 the sort of poppy middle period, and it's it's kind 0:02:30.480 --> 0:02:33.600 of interesting for me because, um, I think for a 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:36.200 lot of younger audiences, it was Murmaid Avenue project with 0:02:36.200 --> 0:02:39.400 Wilco that put me onto their radar. When you did 0:02:39.440 --> 0:02:42.280 Mermaid Avenue that was around the turn of the century. 0:02:42.880 --> 0:02:46.200 But those earlier records play into the crowd that kind 0:02:46.200 --> 0:02:48.760 of got into me through college radio and near the 0:02:48.760 --> 0:02:50.359 people who are coming along. And I can tell it 0:02:50.440 --> 0:02:53.160 then because the middle night the first three albums always 0:02:53.200 --> 0:02:56.960 sells out first, that was my question exactly, and the 0:02:57.000 --> 0:03:01.040 other two eventually sell out. But which do you which 0:03:01.080 --> 0:03:04.240 do you enjoy playing the most? It depends what kind 0:03:04.240 --> 0:03:07.960 of mood I'm in. I think the first three album 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:11.040 stuff Is is exciting. You gotta remember, Bob, my first 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:14.119 album was only seventy minutes long. I can and have 0:03:14.200 --> 0:03:16.959 played it as an uncle the whole album. I don't 0:03:17.000 --> 0:03:20.480 need to, um, you know, rent the Royal album Hole 0:03:20.720 --> 0:03:22.640 and get an orchestra. Can just bash it out if 0:03:22.680 --> 0:03:26.240 I feel like it. But having said that, um, in 0:03:26.280 --> 0:03:28.560 the context that we're currently in the political context, a 0:03:28.560 --> 0:03:31.400 lot of those songs still resonate. But then the second 0:03:31.440 --> 0:03:34.680 three records, when I was trying to be laughingly trying 0:03:34.720 --> 0:03:37.800 to be a pop star. They're interesting to kind of 0:03:37.840 --> 0:03:41.360 reconnect with as well. And then the last of those 0:03:41.360 --> 0:03:44.760 three albums, William Bloke, is my kind of parenthood record, 0:03:45.080 --> 0:03:47.640 and it's always nice to go back to that. That's 0:03:47.680 --> 0:03:50.840 sort of rebirth. Now even you you're you're a third 0:03:50.920 --> 0:03:53.400 generation or depending on how we want to kind of 0:03:53.760 --> 0:03:56.880 You're not the Beatles, You're not a seventies act. But 0:03:57.000 --> 0:04:00.440 in today's scattered landscape where it's hard for anybody to 0:04:00.520 --> 0:04:04.640 get traction, there's that affect your motivation to rate songs 0:04:04.680 --> 0:04:07.640 and record song It does. It's not so much the traction, 0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:12.840 it's the cost as an independent artist behind making a 0:04:12.880 --> 0:04:17.600 full blown album that can actually engage in the mainstream 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:21.560 on Spotify. The last album made, which was recorded here 0:04:21.600 --> 0:04:26.320 in Los Angeles at Joe Henry's place. Um, you know, 0:04:26.360 --> 0:04:29.120 I I recorded the album in a week, and then 0:04:29.120 --> 0:04:33.400 I had to spend a year earning a war chest 0:04:34.200 --> 0:04:36.360 to take it on the road with the band, because 0:04:36.600 --> 0:04:39.800 it felt to me that if I wanted to step 0:04:39.880 --> 0:04:42.120 up a level, it would need a band. But yeah, 0:04:42.240 --> 0:04:44.760 I spent a year to wait with the album and 0:04:44.920 --> 0:04:47.200 spend a year getting together because I have no record 0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:51.160 company behind me. I do have a record company, um 0:04:51.560 --> 0:04:54.560 Cooking Vinyl, but I have a kind of licensing deal 0:04:54.600 --> 0:04:56.960 with him, so I pay for the records, I pay 0:04:57.040 --> 0:04:59.440 for the promotion, and as a result, I owned my 0:04:59.480 --> 0:05:04.479 back cattle. So yeah, it's it's a point out. A 0:05:04.560 --> 0:05:09.160 full service album is a big, a big task in 0:05:09.279 --> 0:05:12.039 terms of blood and treasure. Okay, can't you can't do 0:05:12.080 --> 0:05:14.040 it every every couple of years. Now, if you did 0:05:14.040 --> 0:05:16.440 it with Joe Henry, how much did it cost it 0:05:16.520 --> 0:05:18.400 cost like a proper album. I shouldn't really say that 0:05:18.440 --> 0:05:20.760 much it costs, but it did cost, you know, full 0:05:20.800 --> 0:05:28.359 blown six figures. Um yeah, not quite no, no, okay, 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:30.400 so we get we get the ball, not quite, but 0:05:30.440 --> 0:05:31.719 a lot of money for me, I have to say 0:05:31.760 --> 0:05:33.440 for someone. Of course, of course you have to make 0:05:33.440 --> 0:05:35.680 the money, but you also but you should know that 0:05:35.720 --> 0:05:38.640 I've always made a living doing gigs. I've seldom made 0:05:38.680 --> 0:05:41.800 a huge living Sullen records. I had some gold records 0:05:41.800 --> 0:05:44.159 in the UK in the eighties, which is a hundred 0:05:44.240 --> 0:05:48.000 thousand copies. But really, I'm a I'm a My bread 0:05:48.040 --> 0:05:51.279 and butter is doing gigs. Okay, but what about the 0:05:51.360 --> 0:05:55.960 concept of recording with the band and economically going out solo, 0:05:56.600 --> 0:05:58.520 or do you felt that the only way to do 0:05:58.640 --> 0:06:01.440 justice to this material to have before being the only 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:03.760 the only reason to make a full service album is 0:06:03.800 --> 0:06:05.559 to try and push what you're doing up or notch, 0:06:06.120 --> 0:06:08.640 to get too slightly larger theaters, to get too slightly 0:06:08.880 --> 0:06:11.400 broader audience, to try and reach out. There's no point 0:06:11.400 --> 0:06:13.880 in just going in and just doing whatever you want 0:06:13.880 --> 0:06:15.200 to do. You gotta think what do I want to 0:06:15.240 --> 0:06:18.360 achieve with this record? So getting the band together was 0:06:18.440 --> 0:06:19.720 part of that. You know. I did a third in 0:06:19.760 --> 0:06:22.040 week North American Bus too, which I've never done before, 0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:25.640 and it's I think I needed to show willing. I 0:06:25.720 --> 0:06:29.480 was still willing to two at least I have a 0:06:29.680 --> 0:06:33.599 have a crack making. Now that that was said and done, 0:06:34.160 --> 0:06:37.120 do you believe you achieved your goal of widening your audience. 0:06:37.160 --> 0:06:40.880 I think I achieved my goal of broadening people's perception 0:06:41.000 --> 0:06:44.039 of who I am and what I do. Working with 0:06:44.120 --> 0:06:46.560 Joe was was really howd you hook up with Joe? 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:49.320 I'm known for years, known for years. I've always been 0:06:49.360 --> 0:06:53.200 a big fan of his and whatever I bumped into him, 0:06:53.200 --> 0:06:54.680 he's always said, you know, you could come and make 0:06:54.720 --> 0:06:59.440 an album in my basement for a week. And towards 0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:04.400 the um end of eleven, my mom had passed away 0:07:04.440 --> 0:07:07.720 in the March of eleven and I really needed to 0:07:08.040 --> 0:07:10.800 not not for any other reason than just I needed 0:07:10.840 --> 0:07:13.040 to do something else, and you know, I sort of 0:07:13.040 --> 0:07:15.000 cleared her house out, I'd sort it out the world 0:07:15.080 --> 0:07:17.760 and everything in the state, and I needed to do 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:20.720 have a project to do. My partners suggested, he said, 0:07:20.720 --> 0:07:22.360 why don't you go and see Joe make a record 0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:25.560 with Joe, and that that seemed like a great, great 0:07:25.600 --> 0:07:28.480 idea to do so. So, but working with Joe kind 0:07:28.480 --> 0:07:32.760 of brought me a lot closer to the nascent Americana 0:07:32.880 --> 0:07:37.440 scene because he's got good connections in that department. So, 0:07:38.040 --> 0:07:41.040 you know, I was the Americana Music Association invite me 0:07:41.080 --> 0:07:43.120 to Nashville to give an award. Obviously I had some 0:07:43.160 --> 0:07:45.560 connection there with the Wild Coo Woody Gutic thing, but 0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:48.440 they invited me to come along and and I'm you know, 0:07:48.480 --> 0:07:51.040 I'm happy to be part of that. Obviously. It's like 0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:53.200 my relationship with folk music in England. I'm not of 0:07:53.840 --> 0:07:56.840 the folks scene, I'm not of Americana, but I am 0:07:56.960 --> 0:07:59.640 in some ways part of it. Well today anyway, with 0:07:59.680 --> 0:08:03.080 every with the evolution of these scenes. Yeah, I think 0:08:03.120 --> 0:08:05.640 American is a good place for singer songwriters. Now I 0:08:05.640 --> 0:08:07.520 know a lot of British maybe the only place it 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:10.480 possibly Yeah, a lot of British singer songwriters. They're looking 0:08:10.520 --> 0:08:13.200 to shift to Nashville, go to Nashville to look for work. 0:08:13.320 --> 0:08:16.840 So that's a positive thing I think. Okay, Now, when 0:08:16.920 --> 0:08:19.480 you came in, you just said you got off the 0:08:19.560 --> 0:08:23.240 Cyomo cruise talking of Americana. Okay, so tell us a 0:08:23.280 --> 0:08:25.640 little bit about what that experience was like. Oh, I've 0:08:25.640 --> 0:08:28.160 never been on a cruise ship before, so the idea 0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:30.480 of going out on one sounds a bit strange. But 0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:32.280 when okay, just so I know, I have been on 0:08:32.320 --> 0:08:35.440 a few cruise ships. Did you have did Kayamo have 0:08:35.520 --> 0:08:38.719 the entire ship? The entire ship? And do you remember 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:41.800 what the name of the brand was, you know, Holland 0:08:41.800 --> 0:08:45.439 America Princes the Norwegian Pearl. We're in the Norwegian Okay, 0:08:45.640 --> 0:08:47.960 I have actually been on a Norwegian ship and it 0:08:48.040 --> 0:08:52.200 was gigantic, like yeah, like a city block sailing around 0:08:52.200 --> 0:08:57.960 the Caribbean. And um, my partner Juliet was actually born 0:08:57.960 --> 0:08:59.720 in the Caribbean. She was born in Trinidad and she 0:08:59.840 --> 0:09:01.600 never have been back there, so she wanted to come. 0:09:02.240 --> 0:09:04.560 And she's also my manager, so that made a lot 0:09:04.559 --> 0:09:06.720 of sense. And for some reason which I can't understand, 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:09.000 my son suddenly decided he wanted a roady for me, 0:09:09.480 --> 0:09:11.320 so he came as well, and we had the best time. 0:09:11.360 --> 0:09:14.000 We had a really great time. There's like there must 0:09:14.000 --> 0:09:17.280 have been about I would say maybe thirty to forty artists, 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:20.880 most of them solo artists. UM. The headline acts for 0:09:21.000 --> 0:09:25.679 Jason Isbell and he's a four hundred unit. His banned 0:09:26.120 --> 0:09:32.559 Emmy Lou Harris was keb mo Uh Indigo girls UM 0:09:32.640 --> 0:09:36.040 and a lot of other great North American and some 0:09:36.160 --> 0:09:40.520 European singer songwriters and about I think there was probably 0:09:40.520 --> 0:09:44.120 about twelve hundred hunters on the boat with it. Okay, 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:47.560 so how many days was the cruise and how many 0:09:47.559 --> 0:09:52.560 times did you perform? Performed three times solo. I organized 0:09:52.640 --> 0:09:55.640 a Woody Guthrie event. I saw who else was on 0:09:55.679 --> 0:10:02.480 the buildry go to the Cashy Chambers UM justin towns oh. 0:10:02.559 --> 0:10:04.320 I kind of knew these guys will be into doing 0:10:04.360 --> 0:10:07.800 something around Woody UM and also being a little bit political. 0:10:07.840 --> 0:10:09.520 I wanted to kind of make a point of doing 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:14.000 something of that. Ilk Um and our guy would talk 0:10:14.000 --> 0:10:16.440 about skiffle because I thought that audience who are into 0:10:16.480 --> 0:10:20.040 their roots music would be interested too. Here I did, 0:10:20.240 --> 0:10:23.439 you wrote a book about skiffle. Now I understand this 0:10:23.559 --> 0:10:25.840 was really a big thing in the UK and it 0:10:25.960 --> 0:10:29.640 inspired a lot of rock artists. But Americans are clueless. 0:10:29.720 --> 0:10:32.719 Not that this not that I haven't heard from English listeners, 0:10:32.760 --> 0:10:39.000 but relatively briefly, explain what skiffle is. Skiffle is English 0:10:39.040 --> 0:10:42.880 schoolboys in the nineteen fifties picking up acoustic guitars to 0:10:42.920 --> 0:10:46.240 play lead Belli's repertoire. Okay, I don't know this is 0:10:46.240 --> 0:10:50.480 too deep because we always hear about Liverpool being a 0:10:50.559 --> 0:10:53.600 seaport city and a lot of the acts from they're 0:10:53.640 --> 0:10:58.120 getting American records from the seamen. How did these, if 0:10:58.160 --> 0:11:01.840 you know, these skiffle players find out about belly? Well, 0:11:02.280 --> 0:11:04.320 in the years after the Second World War, the American 0:11:04.360 --> 0:11:09.000 government had a department called the US Information Service, and 0:11:09.080 --> 0:11:12.520 if you went to the US Embassy in Crown Square, 0:11:12.559 --> 0:11:15.160 there was a department there where you could go and 0:11:15.240 --> 0:11:19.840 borrow books. American books are promoting American culture. In the basement, 0:11:19.920 --> 0:11:22.959 there was a record library which contained the whole of 0:11:24.040 --> 0:11:30.160 the Library Congress recording so everything from you know American 0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:33.480 classical music, you know Copeland and stuff like that, all 0:11:33.520 --> 0:11:38.400 the way to um the Parchment Farm recordings that John 0:11:38.760 --> 0:11:42.400 Alan Lomax did with Muddy Waters, and so people like 0:11:42.480 --> 0:11:45.000 Londie Donegan, who had a hit with Rock, Ironline Librities 0:11:45.080 --> 0:11:48.400 Rock Online, could access those records and that is how 0:11:48.440 --> 0:11:50.480 they found them. That is how they found them. So 0:11:50.679 --> 0:11:54.400 Lonnie Darnigan actually went to the record collection. Londie Donigan 0:11:54.440 --> 0:11:56.960 didn't only go to the record collection. He regularly stole 0:11:57.000 --> 0:12:01.440 the records because people would go there to borrow the 0:12:01.480 --> 0:12:03.679 records and they would say, I'm afraid this record has 0:12:03.679 --> 0:12:07.760 been taken out by someone called Tony Donegan. Donegan realized 0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:12.160 that if he um, if he stole the record, the 0:12:12.160 --> 0:12:14.520 Americans could just get another copy. You couldn't buy a 0:12:14.600 --> 0:12:18.640 lead Belly record in England, so so he often stole 0:12:18.720 --> 0:12:21.520 the records. And when I went to the Library Congress 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:24.400 in to talk about Skiffle, they looked in their records 0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:27.520 and found a memo which discussed the fact that books 0:12:27.520 --> 0:12:31.079 and records were being stolen, and the attitude in Washington, 0:12:31.120 --> 0:12:33.320 d C. Was well, we're trying to promote American culture. 0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:34.960 I guess this is part of the process. Let's not 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:36.640 worry about it. I guess it's working. There are more 0:12:36.800 --> 0:12:40.320 latent exactly. So here's the here's the thing. Donegan has 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:43.920 a hit with Rock hard Line fifty six. He goes 0:12:43.960 --> 0:12:47.000 on the road in late fifty six playing vaudeville circuit. 0:12:47.600 --> 0:12:50.760 So he's doing two shows a night, six nights a 0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:54.880 week in major cities. When he plays in Liverpool, George 0:12:54.880 --> 0:12:58.640 Harrison goes every night of the week. Paul McCartney goes. 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:01.280 John Lennon. We don't think he does go Here's the 0:13:01.320 --> 0:13:06.840 really significant thing about this. Harrison is thirteen, McCartney's fourteen, 0:13:07.640 --> 0:13:11.080 and Lennon is sixteen. These are the people that Donnegan 0:13:11.160 --> 0:13:14.199 has the effect on, not people who are buying African 0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:17.120 American roots music from sailors in the ports. We're talking 0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:20.959 about kids. In some ways. Skiffle was like the fidget 0:13:20.960 --> 0:13:23.200 spinner craze that has been in playgrounds over here and 0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:25.600 in my country in the last five years. It was 0:13:25.600 --> 0:13:29.200 a school school boy phenomenon. What they did those kids 0:13:30.200 --> 0:13:34.319 was they picked up the acoustic guitar as a symbol 0:13:34.320 --> 0:13:38.240 of their difference from their parents generation. Because these kids, 0:13:38.440 --> 0:13:40.800 John Ian was born in nine and forty, he's in 0:13:40.840 --> 0:13:43.800 the first tranch there there there there are first teenagers. 0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:50.280 And until when Leonard's fourteen, there was food rationing in 0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:53.800 my country, including sweets. So John Lennon couldn't go in 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:55.600 a sweet shop till he was fourteen and buy what 0:13:55.640 --> 0:13:58.319 you wanted. And a year later he left school and 0:13:58.559 --> 0:14:00.360 you know, I was going to college, so it was 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:03.000 quite almost an adult before he could buy what he wanted. 0:14:03.000 --> 0:14:08.840 And it's these kids, and they're uh young, their lives 0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:13.199 being deprived of those things that blong onto African American 0:14:13.200 --> 0:14:16.480 culture so strongly as something that's there's it hasn't been 0:14:16.480 --> 0:14:19.040 handed down to them by the state or rational to 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:22.480 them by the government and the BBC. So they learned 0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:27.840 to play guitars. And so by the time American kids 0:14:28.640 --> 0:14:31.400 are white American kids anywhere learning to play acoustic guitar 0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:35.400 during the Folk Revival, which starts in fifty nine, our kids, 0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:37.800 their contemporaries, they were the same age as them. They're 0:14:37.800 --> 0:14:40.720 already in Hamburg. And the result of this is that 0:14:40.760 --> 0:14:45.320 when the Beatles break the American charts in janu there's 0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:51.240 a huge number of already road hard in British groups 0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:55.440 ready to come in behind them. Skiffle is the nursery 0:14:55.480 --> 0:14:58.040 for the British invasion of America. It's not what they 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:00.440 did in in the fifties. These kids, what they do 0:15:00.480 --> 0:15:02.560 in the sixties that counts. So you were born in 0:15:02.640 --> 0:15:07.400 fifties seven, I was born at peak skiffle. Were you 0:15:07.520 --> 0:15:10.160 aware of any of this? You're too young. When I 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:12.080 was a kid, I was aware of Donegan, but only 0:15:12.120 --> 0:15:15.880 in terms of his um novelty records like myle Man's 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:18.960 a Dustman and your Chewing Gun. So when did you 0:15:19.000 --> 0:15:21.800 get turned onto? Amount of time of punk? Because what 0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:25.680 happened with punk was all the old guitars that had 0:15:25.720 --> 0:15:27.880 been there during skiffle, which were most the old arch 0:15:27.960 --> 0:15:30.800 tops were back in the junk shops and the old 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:36.120 really early a hollow body electric guitars in the U 0:15:36.200 --> 0:15:38.640 coach are made by the Hofner company. They were they 0:15:38.640 --> 0:15:42.400 were all buying for ten quid and they became kind 0:15:42.400 --> 0:15:45.320 of part of punk. They were so fabulously retro and 0:15:45.360 --> 0:15:49.000 punk had a lot of similarities with UM. Skiffle in 0:15:49.080 --> 0:15:52.800 that it was a do it yourself uh genre. You know, 0:15:52.840 --> 0:15:56.400 you made your own music. You in many ways you 0:15:56.440 --> 0:15:59.200 were self empowering. Because that's the thing that was most 0:15:59.240 --> 0:16:03.640 revolutionary about Donegan. The message that he took around the 0:16:03.680 --> 0:16:05.880 country when he when he went out in fifty six 0:16:06.000 --> 0:16:08.720 was firstly, you don't have to be a trained musician 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:11.200 to make music, and secondly, you don't have to be 0:16:11.240 --> 0:16:13.240 an old African American guy at seeing the blues. And 0:16:13.280 --> 0:16:16.880 this is probably the two most revolutionary ideas ever imparted 0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:20.680 to British youth. It was just, you know, because Van Morrison, 0:16:21.560 --> 0:16:23.240 when our interviewed him for the book, told me the 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:25.240 problem with Elvis was you couldn't be Elvis if you 0:16:25.280 --> 0:16:28.320 were British. It's just impossible. You could be Learning Donegan. 0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:33.560 So Donegan kind of was the catalyst for for for 0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:37.160 these kids too to learn the three chords necessary to 0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:41.320 play all of Lead Bellies repertoire, which also, by concidence, 0:16:41.360 --> 0:16:43.440 happened to be the three chords necessary to play all 0:16:43.440 --> 0:16:48.280 the Chuck Berry's repertoire. Okay, and the punk scene, you know, 0:16:48.320 --> 0:16:51.480 it starts in America with the Ramans and seventy five 0:16:51.480 --> 0:16:54.480 they don't get any traction. When do you become aware 0:16:54.520 --> 0:16:57.000 of the pug scene? And I go and see the 0:16:57.120 --> 0:17:00.680 jam They were kind of retro band. Where were you? Okay, 0:17:00.720 --> 0:17:02.320 so where were you living at the East London a 0:17:02.360 --> 0:17:05.720 place called Barking in Northeast London industrial borough. I was 0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:08.080 educated left school at sixteen, and I was educated to 0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:11.119 work in the car factory which has dominated our town. Okay, 0:17:11.119 --> 0:17:14.880 a little bit once again. If you leave at sixteen, 0:17:14.920 --> 0:17:17.360 what do your parents say about that? Are they're cool? 0:17:17.960 --> 0:17:19.920 My parents have both left school. I have a working 0:17:19.960 --> 0:17:23.000 class upbringing my parents. And so do you go to work? 0:17:23.040 --> 0:17:24.520 What is your gig? You go to work in the 0:17:24.520 --> 0:17:28.600 car country. I'm determined not to work in the car 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:32.879 factory because we get from school. We go to the 0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:36.439 car factory every year for careers advice. And when I 0:17:36.560 --> 0:17:39.879 tell the the careers officer that I don't want to 0:17:39.880 --> 0:17:43.240 work for Fords, he says, your free options son in 0:17:43.280 --> 0:17:45.879 the Army to Navy of the Air Force. That's it. 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:48.359 So I manage what happens. It is just as I 0:17:48.440 --> 0:17:53.679 leave school, the Port of London is being containerized, and 0:17:53.800 --> 0:17:55.320 so I get a job with one of the new 0:17:55.359 --> 0:17:58.639 container companies. As a kind of office boy, which is 0:17:58.720 --> 0:18:02.160 kind of well, that's what I wanted, you know, um, 0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:04.000 because in many ways I kind of picked up the 0:18:04.040 --> 0:18:06.560 guitar to avoid working in the car factory. But they 0:18:06.560 --> 0:18:08.520 were the main ways to escape. Be good at football, 0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:11.200 good at boxing, or play music, and I wasn't good 0:18:11.200 --> 0:18:13.400 at the first two. Okay, let's go back a little bit. 0:18:13.960 --> 0:18:16.240 So if you're turned out of the punk scene and 0:18:16.240 --> 0:18:18.639 you've got to see the with the GM in seventy seven, 0:18:19.520 --> 0:18:22.200 are you someone who's addicted to the radio before that? Yeah, 0:18:22.240 --> 0:18:24.399 from the age of about twelve, I had had a 0:18:24.440 --> 0:18:28.199 real to real tape machine usually, yeah, sort of a 0:18:28.240 --> 0:18:31.080 domestic one. Domestic, real to real. My parents. I think 0:18:31.080 --> 0:18:33.119 my parents realized if they brought me a real to 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:36.600 real machine, this is before the days of cassettes, I'll 0:18:36.600 --> 0:18:38.320 be able to tape stuff from the radio and they 0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:40.360 wouldn't have to keep spending money buy me records. It's 0:18:40.400 --> 0:18:42.919 quite clever, really, and did is that what happened? It 0:18:43.040 --> 0:18:45.680 was better than that. My friends down our street all 0:18:45.760 --> 0:18:48.760 had elder sisters and their record collections, which is brilliant. 0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:52.520 So very soon I had the entire Simon and Garth 0:18:52.640 --> 0:18:56.520 Uncle catalog, and Motown Chartbusters Volumes three, four, five, six, 0:18:56.560 --> 0:18:59.240 and seven on tape. And that provided me with the 0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:02.000 basis of my knowledge of music and my skill as 0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:05.080 a songwriter. And when do you start to play. I 0:19:05.119 --> 0:19:08.760 start writing songs on about twelve. I can't play until 0:19:08.800 --> 0:19:11.480 I leave school. Okay. But if you're writing songs, you're 0:19:11.480 --> 0:19:15.359 writing them on what paper? Really? You're just making the 0:19:15.440 --> 0:19:17.480 melodies up in your in my head? Yeah? And are 0:19:17.480 --> 0:19:21.600 those moon June songs or well? I wrote a poem 0:19:21.880 --> 0:19:28.040 um at school the when I was twelve that the 0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:29.960 English teacher was very impressed with and he wrote to 0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:31.520 my parents and asked if I copied it from a 0:19:31.560 --> 0:19:34.920 book and I hadn't, so that that impressed him. And 0:19:34.960 --> 0:19:37.040 then I got to read it out on a kid's 0:19:37.160 --> 0:19:40.240 radio program, a local radio program. So I kind of okay, 0:19:40.320 --> 0:19:43.159 let's go a little bit slower. Here was this for 0:19:43.480 --> 0:19:47.199 an assign? Yeah? Okay, do you remember what the assignment was? 0:19:47.680 --> 0:19:52.280 A poem? Okay? And was this relatively brief or you know, 0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:54.440 three or four verses here? Three or four verses? You 0:19:54.440 --> 0:19:57.080 remember any of them today? Not? Really? It was it 0:19:57.160 --> 0:19:59.560 was it was kind of apocalyptic in its nature. I 0:19:59.560 --> 0:20:02.560 think that you know there's no hope for mankind or 0:20:02.560 --> 0:20:05.360 something like that. Okay, And was it something you dashed 0:20:05.400 --> 0:20:08.439 off or something you took seriously, this is my chance. 0:20:09.080 --> 0:20:11.440 It's something I did for homework book and just worked 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:13.720 out really well and that kind and then I got 0:20:13.800 --> 0:20:17.400 the I failed all my exams except English. You get 0:20:17.440 --> 0:20:19.600 to read on the radio. That must be big, you know. 0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:23.639 It was a big inspiration. It inspired me. Inspired me 0:20:23.680 --> 0:20:26.679 because I always liked to sing a songwriter, you know. 0:20:26.680 --> 0:20:28.960 I started with Paul Simon and graduated very quickly on 0:20:29.000 --> 0:20:31.240 the Bob Dylan. I had a job in a hardware 0:20:31.240 --> 0:20:34.000 store on Saturdays, and the hardware store had a record 0:20:34.000 --> 0:20:35.920 shop in the basement, so I spent all my money 0:20:36.440 --> 0:20:39.800 on discounting vinyl and earlier and I got Bob Dylan's 0:20:39.800 --> 0:20:42.640 Greatest It's the original version, which has all the early 0:20:42.640 --> 0:20:46.600 stuff on it. And that really that really inspired me. Okay, 0:20:46.760 --> 0:20:50.160 So you're writing songs. Are you gathering together with friends 0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:51.960 to play these songs? Well, this is the thing. The 0:20:52.000 --> 0:20:54.200 kid next door. When I turned sixteen, I can hear 0:20:54.240 --> 0:20:57.600 the kid next door playing his electric guitar through the war. 0:20:57.720 --> 0:21:01.040 He's fourteen and he's working his way through the watch 0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:04.800 Shoot Songbook. So I get my dad to buy me 0:21:04.880 --> 0:21:10.560 a Nylon strong Spanish guitar, and I get the kidnext 0:21:10.720 --> 0:21:12.919 or to teach me how I played. I remember that's 0:21:12.920 --> 0:21:15.919 how I started the nightline. They're not easy to play, No, 0:21:16.160 --> 0:21:19.159 they're not. And it's you know, it's the just thing 0:21:19.280 --> 0:21:20.880 of get one end to do this and the other 0:21:20.920 --> 0:21:23.920 rand to do something completely different. It's not easy. But 0:21:24.119 --> 0:21:26.359 as I say, I was learning songs I really loved 0:21:26.400 --> 0:21:28.399 at the watch Shot song But because he covered they 0:21:28.520 --> 0:21:31.439 learn and he covered a lot of great songwriters, so 0:21:31.480 --> 0:21:34.320 I was quite into these songs. And let's stop here 0:21:34.320 --> 0:21:38.360 for a second. A lot of punks had a negative 0:21:38.400 --> 0:21:42.040