1 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome to The Bob Left Set's podcast. My 2 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: guest today is singer political rock auteur Troubadoor Billy Brag 3 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:19,319 Speaker 1: Billy Glad to have you here. Okay, now, you're in 4 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:23,800 Speaker 1: here for a three nights stand at the Troubadoor, and 5 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 1: each night is different material. Can you explain that? Yeah, 6 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:32,200 Speaker 1: it's really something that I developed over the last eighteen months. 7 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: Last time I came through town through Los Angeles, I 8 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: was on a fly plate too, which is basically every 9 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:41,599 Speaker 1: day you fly and play. That's hard than it used 10 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: to be. I mean partly because I'm over sixty now, 11 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: so it's harder than me. Let's just be clear, how 12 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:51,920 Speaker 1: old are you? Sixty one? But also the airlines don't 13 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 1: operate the way they used to it. I think it's 14 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: a mixture of um, the corporate attitude, but also the 15 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 1: weather is much more inclement than it used to be, 16 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: and it only takes a storm in the Midwest to 17 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: knock their schedules out a little bit and you're in 18 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 1: danger of losing a gig. I know agents who won't 19 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 1: book bands who've played in Nashville a gig the very 20 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,320 Speaker 1: next day in New York, because the possibility of them 21 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 1: missing the gig because the flights are canceled is too high. 22 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: So when you take all that into account, UM you 23 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:28,399 Speaker 1: need to try and think about new way of touring. 24 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 1: And for me UM, I got invited to play at 25 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:36,400 Speaker 1: the Horseshoe Tavern in Toronto a couple of years ago 26 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:40,040 Speaker 1: three nights stand there for their seventy five I think 27 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: seventy fifth anniversary. I used to play there a lot 28 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 1: in the eighties, and I came up with this idea 29 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: that the first night I would play my current touring set, 30 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:52,279 Speaker 1: which is a you know songs right across my career, 31 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 1: the tour, the show I did last night I was 32 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 1: in town, the show I would do if I was 33 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 1: just doing one night in a city. But on the 34 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: second night, I would only play songs from my first 35 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: three albums. Just for those who were uninitiated, how many 36 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 1: albums do you have? Double twelve? So just from the 37 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: first three years US three, yes, So that would take 38 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:15,639 Speaker 1: me up to about night and eight six. And then 39 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 1: on the third night, the final night, I would only 40 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 1: play songs from my second three albums, so that would 41 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 1: take me up to so classic early brag and then 42 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 1: the sort of poppy middle period, and it's it's kind 43 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 1: of interesting for me because, um, I think for a 44 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 1: lot of younger audiences, it was Murmaid Avenue project with 45 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 1: Wilco that put me onto their radar. When you did 46 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 1: Mermaid Avenue that was around the turn of the century. 47 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 1: But those earlier records play into the crowd that kind 48 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 1: of got into me through college radio and near the 49 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:50,359 Speaker 1: people who are coming along. And I can tell it 50 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 1: then because the middle night the first three albums always 51 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:56,960 Speaker 1: sells out first, that was my question exactly, and the 52 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: other two eventually sell out. But which do you which 53 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 1: do you enjoy playing the most? It depends what kind 54 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 1: of mood I'm in. I think the first three album 55 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 1: stuff Is is exciting. You gotta remember, Bob, my first 56 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:14,119 Speaker 1: album was only seventy minutes long. I can and have 57 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:16,959 Speaker 1: played it as an uncle the whole album. I don't 58 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: need to, um, you know, rent the Royal album Hole 59 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:22,640 Speaker 1: and get an orchestra. Can just bash it out if 60 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 1: I feel like it. But having said that, um, in 61 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 1: the context that we're currently in the political context, a 62 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 1: lot of those songs still resonate. But then the second 63 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 1: three records, when I was trying to be laughingly trying 64 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 1: to be a pop star. They're interesting to kind of 65 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 1: reconnect with as well. And then the last of those 66 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 1: three albums, William Bloke, is my kind of parenthood record, 67 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 1: and it's always nice to go back to that. That's 68 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 1: sort of rebirth. Now even you you're you're a third 69 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 1: generation or depending on how we want to kind of 70 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 1: You're not the Beatles, You're not a seventies act. But 71 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 1: in today's scattered landscape where it's hard for anybody to 72 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 1: get traction, there's that affect your motivation to rate songs 73 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 1: and record song It does. It's not so much the traction, 74 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 1: it's the cost as an independent artist behind making a 75 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:17,600 Speaker 1: full blown album that can actually engage in the mainstream 76 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 1: on Spotify. The last album made, which was recorded here 77 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 1: in Los Angeles at Joe Henry's place. Um, you know, 78 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 1: I I recorded the album in a week, and then 79 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 1: I had to spend a year earning a war chest 80 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 1: to take it on the road with the band, because 81 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 1: it felt to me that if I wanted to step 82 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 1: up a level, it would need a band. But yeah, 83 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 1: I spent a year to wait with the album and 84 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 1: spend a year getting together because I have no record 85 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:51,160 Speaker 1: company behind me. I do have a record company, um 86 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: Cooking Vinyl, but I have a kind of licensing deal 87 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: with him, so I pay for the records, I pay 88 00:04:57,040 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 1: for the promotion, and as a result, I owned my 89 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:04,479 Speaker 1: back cattle. So yeah, it's it's a point out. A 90 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:09,160 Speaker 1: full service album is a big, a big task in 91 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:12,039 Speaker 1: terms of blood and treasure. Okay, can't you can't do 92 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:14,040 Speaker 1: it every every couple of years. Now, if you did 93 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: it with Joe Henry, how much did it cost it 94 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 1: cost like a proper album. I shouldn't really say that 95 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: much it costs, but it did cost, you know, full 96 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:28,359 Speaker 1: blown six figures. Um yeah, not quite no, no, okay, 97 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 1: so we get we get the ball, not quite, but 98 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:31,719 Speaker 1: a lot of money for me, I have to say 99 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 1: for someone. Of course, of course you have to make 100 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:35,680 Speaker 1: the money, but you also but you should know that 101 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: I've always made a living doing gigs. I've seldom made 102 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 1: a huge living Sullen records. I had some gold records 103 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:44,159 Speaker 1: in the UK in the eighties, which is a hundred 104 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 1: thousand copies. But really, I'm a I'm a My bread 105 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:51,279 Speaker 1: and butter is doing gigs. Okay, but what about the 106 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 1: concept of recording with the band and economically going out solo, 107 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 1: or do you felt that the only way to do 108 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 1: justice to this material to have before being the only 109 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 1: the only reason to make a full service album is 110 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:05,559 Speaker 1: to try and push what you're doing up or notch, 111 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 1: to get too slightly larger theaters, to get too slightly 112 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 1: broader audience, to try and reach out. There's no point 113 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 1: in just going in and just doing whatever you want 114 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: to do. You gotta think what do I want to 115 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 1: achieve with this record? So getting the band together was 116 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:19,720 Speaker 1: part of that. You know. I did a third in 117 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:22,040 Speaker 1: week North American Bus too, which I've never done before, 118 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: and it's I think I needed to show willing. I 119 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:29,480 Speaker 1: was still willing to two at least I have a 120 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:33,599 Speaker 1: have a crack making. Now that that was said and done, 121 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 1: do you believe you achieved your goal of widening your audience. 122 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: I think I achieved my goal of broadening people's perception 123 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:44,039 Speaker 1: of who I am and what I do. Working with 124 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 1: Joe was was really howd you hook up with Joe? 125 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: I'm known for years, known for years. I've always been 126 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 1: a big fan of his and whatever I bumped into him, 127 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 1: he's always said, you know, you could come and make 128 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: an album in my basement for a week. And towards 129 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: the um end of eleven, my mom had passed away 130 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:07,720 Speaker 1: in the March of eleven and I really needed to 131 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: not not for any other reason than just I needed 132 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 1: to do something else, and you know, I sort of 133 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 1: cleared her house out, I'd sort it out the world 134 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: and everything in the state, and I needed to do 135 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 1: have a project to do. My partners suggested, he said, 136 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 1: why don't you go and see Joe make a record 137 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 1: with Joe, and that that seemed like a great, great 138 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 1: idea to do so. So, but working with Joe kind 139 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 1: of brought me a lot closer to the nascent Americana 140 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: scene because he's got good connections in that department. So, 141 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 1: you know, I was the Americana Music Association invite me 142 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 1: to Nashville to give an award. Obviously I had some 143 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 1: connection there with the Wild Coo Woody Gutic thing, but 144 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 1: they invited me to come along and and I'm you know, 145 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: I'm happy to be part of that. Obviously. It's like 146 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 1: my relationship with folk music in England. I'm not of 147 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: the folks scene, I'm not of Americana, but I am 148 00:07:56,960 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: in some ways part of it. Well today anyway, with 149 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 1: every with the evolution of these scenes. Yeah, I think 150 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: American is a good place for singer songwriters. Now I 151 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: know a lot of British maybe the only place it 152 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 1: possibly Yeah, a lot of British singer songwriters. They're looking 153 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 1: to shift to Nashville, go to Nashville to look for work. 154 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 1: So that's a positive thing I think. Okay, Now, when 155 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: you came in, you just said you got off the 156 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: Cyomo cruise talking of Americana. Okay, so tell us a 157 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 1: little bit about what that experience was like. Oh, I've 158 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 1: never been on a cruise ship before, so the idea 159 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 1: of going out on one sounds a bit strange. But 160 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 1: when okay, just so I know, I have been on 161 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 1: a few cruise ships. Did you have did Kayamo have 162 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:38,719 Speaker 1: the entire ship? The entire ship? And do you remember 163 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 1: what the name of the brand was, you know, Holland 164 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:45,439 Speaker 1: America Princes the Norwegian Pearl. We're in the Norwegian Okay, 165 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 1: I have actually been on a Norwegian ship and it 166 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 1: was gigantic, like yeah, like a city block sailing around 167 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 1: the Caribbean. And um, my partner Juliet was actually born 168 00:08:57,960 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: in the Caribbean. She was born in Trinidad and she 169 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 1: never have been back there, so she wanted to come. 170 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:04,560 Speaker 1: And she's also my manager, so that made a lot 171 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 1: of sense. And for some reason which I can't understand, 172 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 1: my son suddenly decided he wanted a roady for me, 173 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:11,320 Speaker 1: so he came as well, and we had the best time. 174 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 1: We had a really great time. There's like there must 175 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 1: have been about I would say maybe thirty to forty artists, 176 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 1: most of them solo artists. UM. The headline acts for 177 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:25,679 Speaker 1: Jason Isbell and he's a four hundred unit. His banned 178 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:32,559 Speaker 1: Emmy Lou Harris was keb mo Uh Indigo girls UM 179 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 1: and a lot of other great North American and some 180 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 1: European singer songwriters and about I think there was probably 181 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 1: about twelve hundred hunters on the boat with it. Okay, 182 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:47,560 Speaker 1: so how many days was the cruise and how many 183 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:52,560 Speaker 1: times did you perform? Performed three times solo. I organized 184 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 1: a Woody Guthrie event. I saw who else was on 185 00:09:55,679 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 1: the buildry go to the Cashy Chambers UM justin towns oh. 186 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 1: I kind of knew these guys will be into doing 187 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 1: something around Woody UM and also being a little bit political. 188 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 1: I wanted to kind of make a point of doing 189 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 1: something of that. Ilk Um and our guy would talk 190 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 1: about skiffle because I thought that audience who are into 191 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 1: their roots music would be interested too. Here I did, 192 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:23,439 Speaker 1: you wrote a book about skiffle. Now I understand this 193 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 1: was really a big thing in the UK and it 194 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 1: inspired a lot of rock artists. But Americans are clueless. 195 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:32,719 Speaker 1: Not that this not that I haven't heard from English listeners, 196 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 1: but relatively briefly, explain what skiffle is. Skiffle is English 197 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 1: schoolboys in the nineteen fifties picking up acoustic guitars to 198 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 1: play lead Belli's repertoire. Okay, I don't know this is 199 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 1: too deep because we always hear about Liverpool being a 200 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 1: seaport city and a lot of the acts from they're 201 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 1: getting American records from the seamen. How did these, if 202 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 1: you know, these skiffle players find out about belly? Well, 203 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:04,320 Speaker 1: in the years after the Second World War, the American 204 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 1: government had a department called the US Information Service, and 205 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 1: if you went to the US Embassy in Crown Square, 206 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 1: there was a department there where you could go and 207 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:19,840 Speaker 1: borrow books. American books are promoting American culture. In the basement, 208 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:22,959 Speaker 1: there was a record library which contained the whole of 209 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 1: the Library Congress recording so everything from you know American 210 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 1: classical music, you know Copeland and stuff like that, all 211 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 1: the way to um the Parchment Farm recordings that John 212 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 1: Alan Lomax did with Muddy Waters, and so people like 213 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 1: Londie Donegan, who had a hit with Rock, Ironline Librities 214 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 1: Rock Online, could access those records and that is how 215 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 1: they found them. That is how they found them. So 216 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: Lonnie Darnigan actually went to the record collection. Londie Donigan 217 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:56,960 Speaker 1: didn't only go to the record collection. He regularly stole 218 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:01,440 Speaker 1: the records because people would go there to borrow the 219 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:03,679 Speaker 1: records and they would say, I'm afraid this record has 220 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 1: been taken out by someone called Tony Donegan. Donegan realized 221 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: that if he um, if he stole the record, the 222 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 1: Americans could just get another copy. You couldn't buy a 223 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 1: lead Belly record in England, so so he often stole 224 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 1: the records. And when I went to the Library Congress 225 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: in to talk about Skiffle, they looked in their records 226 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 1: and found a memo which discussed the fact that books 227 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:31,079 Speaker 1: and records were being stolen, and the attitude in Washington, 228 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:33,320 Speaker 1: d C. Was well, we're trying to promote American culture. 229 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:34,960 Speaker 1: I guess this is part of the process. Let's not 230 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 1: worry about it. I guess it's working. There are more 231 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:40,320 Speaker 1: latent exactly. So here's the here's the thing. Donegan has 232 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 1: a hit with Rock hard Line fifty six. He goes 233 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 1: on the road in late fifty six playing vaudeville circuit. 234 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 1: So he's doing two shows a night, six nights a 235 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 1: week in major cities. When he plays in Liverpool, George 236 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 1: Harrison goes every night of the week. Paul McCartney goes. 237 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: John Lennon. We don't think he does go Here's the 238 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:06,840 Speaker 1: really significant thing about this. Harrison is thirteen, McCartney's fourteen, 239 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,080 Speaker 1: and Lennon is sixteen. These are the people that Donnegan 240 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:14,199 Speaker 1: has the effect on, not people who are buying African 241 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: American roots music from sailors in the ports. We're talking 242 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:20,959 Speaker 1: about kids. In some ways. Skiffle was like the fidget 243 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:23,200 Speaker 1: spinner craze that has been in playgrounds over here and 244 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 1: in my country in the last five years. It was 245 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 1: a school school boy phenomenon. What they did those kids 246 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:34,319 Speaker 1: was they picked up the acoustic guitar as a symbol 247 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 1: of their difference from their parents generation. Because these kids, 248 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 1: John Ian was born in nine and forty, he's in 249 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 1: the first tranch there there there there are first teenagers. 250 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 1: And until when Leonard's fourteen, there was food rationing in 251 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 1: my country, including sweets. So John Lennon couldn't go in 252 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 1: a sweet shop till he was fourteen and buy what 253 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:58,319 Speaker 1: you wanted. And a year later he left school and 254 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 1: you know, I was going to college, so it was 255 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 1: quite almost an adult before he could buy what he wanted. 256 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 1: And it's these kids, and they're uh young, their lives 257 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:13,199 Speaker 1: being deprived of those things that blong onto African American 258 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 1: culture so strongly as something that's there's it hasn't been 259 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 1: handed down to them by the state or rational to 260 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 1: them by the government and the BBC. So they learned 261 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 1: to play guitars. And so by the time American kids 262 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 1: are white American kids anywhere learning to play acoustic guitar 263 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: during the Folk Revival, which starts in fifty nine, our kids, 264 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 1: their contemporaries, they were the same age as them. They're 265 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: already in Hamburg. And the result of this is that 266 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 1: when the Beatles break the American charts in janu there's 267 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 1: a huge number of already road hard in British groups 268 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 1: ready to come in behind them. Skiffle is the nursery 269 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 1: for the British invasion of America. It's not what they 270 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 1: did in in the fifties. These kids, what they do 271 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 1: in the sixties that counts. So you were born in 272 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 1: fifties seven, I was born at peak skiffle. Were you 273 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 1: aware of any of this? You're too young. When I 274 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 1: was a kid, I was aware of Donegan, but only 275 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: in terms of his um novelty records like myle Man's 276 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 1: a Dustman and your Chewing Gun. So when did you 277 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 1: get turned onto? Amount of time of punk? Because what 278 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 1: happened with punk was all the old guitars that had 279 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 1: been there during skiffle, which were most the old arch 280 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 1: tops were back in the junk shops and the old 281 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 1: really early a hollow body electric guitars in the U 282 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 1: coach are made by the Hofner company. They were they 283 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 1: were all buying for ten quid and they became kind 284 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 1: of part of punk. They were so fabulously retro and 285 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 1: punk had a lot of similarities with UM. Skiffle in 286 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 1: that it was a do it yourself uh genre. You know, 287 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 1: you made your own music. You in many ways you 288 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 1: were self empowering. Because that's the thing that was most 289 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: revolutionary about Donegan. The message that he took around the 290 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: country when he when he went out in fifty six 291 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 1: was firstly, you don't have to be a trained musician 292 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 1: to make music, and secondly, you don't have to be 293 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 1: an old African American guy at seeing the blues. And 294 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 1: this is probably the two most revolutionary ideas ever imparted 295 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: to British youth. It was just, you know, because Van Morrison, 296 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: when our interviewed him for the book, told me the 297 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 1: problem with Elvis was you couldn't be Elvis if you 298 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 1: were British. It's just impossible. You could be Learning Donegan. 299 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 1: So Donegan kind of was the catalyst for for for 300 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: these kids too to learn the three chords necessary to 301 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 1: play all of Lead Bellies repertoire, which also, by concidence, 302 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 1: happened to be the three chords necessary to play all 303 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 1: the Chuck Berry's repertoire. Okay, and the punk scene, you know, 304 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 1: it starts in America with the Ramans and seventy five 305 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 1: they don't get any traction. When do you become aware 306 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 1: of the pug scene? And I go and see the 307 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 1: jam They were kind of retro band. Where were you? Okay, 308 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: so where were you living at the East London a 309 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 1: place called Barking in Northeast London industrial borough. I was 310 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: educated left school at sixteen, and I was educated to 311 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:11,119 Speaker 1: work in the car factory which has dominated our town. Okay, 312 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:14,880 Speaker 1: a little bit once again. If you leave at sixteen, 313 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:17,360 Speaker 1: what do your parents say about that? Are they're cool? 314 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:19,920 Speaker 1: My parents have both left school. I have a working 315 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 1: class upbringing my parents. And so do you go to work? 316 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 1: What is your gig? You go to work in the 317 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 1: car country. I'm determined not to work in the car 318 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:32,879 Speaker 1: factory because we get from school. We go to the 319 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:36,439 Speaker 1: car factory every year for careers advice. And when I 320 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 1: tell the the careers officer that I don't want to 321 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 1: work for Fords, he says, your free options son in 322 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:45,879 Speaker 1: the Army to Navy of the Air Force. That's it. 323 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:48,359 Speaker 1: So I manage what happens. It is just as I 324 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:53,679 Speaker 1: leave school, the Port of London is being containerized, and 325 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 1: so I get a job with one of the new 326 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:58,639 Speaker 1: container companies. As a kind of office boy, which is 327 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:02,160 Speaker 1: kind of well, that's what I wanted, you know, um, 328 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: because in many ways I kind of picked up the 329 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 1: guitar to avoid working in the car factory. But they 330 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 1: were the main ways to escape. Be good at football, 331 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:11,200 Speaker 1: good at boxing, or play music, and I wasn't good 332 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:13,400 Speaker 1: at the first two. Okay, let's go back a little bit. 333 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 1: So if you're turned out of the punk scene and 334 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:18,639 Speaker 1: you've got to see the with the GM in seventy seven, 335 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:22,200 Speaker 1: are you someone who's addicted to the radio before that? Yeah, 336 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:24,399 Speaker 1: from the age of about twelve, I had had a 337 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:28,199 Speaker 1: real to real tape machine usually, yeah, sort of a 338 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 1: domestic one. Domestic, real to real. My parents. I think 339 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:33,119 Speaker 1: my parents realized if they brought me a real to 340 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: real machine, this is before the days of cassettes, I'll 341 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: be able to tape stuff from the radio and they 342 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:40,360 Speaker 1: wouldn't have to keep spending money buy me records. It's 343 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:42,919 Speaker 1: quite clever, really, and did is that what happened? It 344 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:45,680 Speaker 1: was better than that. My friends down our street all 345 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 1: had elder sisters and their record collections, which is brilliant. 346 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 1: So very soon I had the entire Simon and Garth 347 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: Uncle catalog, and Motown Chartbusters Volumes three, four, five, six, 348 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 1: and seven on tape. And that provided me with the 349 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 1: basis of my knowledge of music and my skill as 350 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 1: a songwriter. And when do you start to play. I 351 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 1: start writing songs on about twelve. I can't play until 352 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 1: I leave school. Okay. But if you're writing songs, you're 353 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:15,359 Speaker 1: writing them on what paper? Really? You're just making the 354 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 1: melodies up in your in my head? Yeah? And are 355 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 1: those moon June songs or well? I wrote a poem 356 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 1: um at school the when I was twelve that the 357 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 1: English teacher was very impressed with and he wrote to 358 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 1: my parents and asked if I copied it from a 359 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:34,920 Speaker 1: book and I hadn't, so that that impressed him. And 360 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: then I got to read it out on a kid's 361 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 1: radio program, a local radio program. So I kind of okay, 362 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:43,159 Speaker 1: let's go a little bit slower. Here was this for 363 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:47,199 Speaker 1: an assign? Yeah? Okay, do you remember what the assignment was? 364 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 1: A poem? Okay? And was this relatively brief or you know, 365 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:54,440 Speaker 1: three or four verses here? Three or four verses? You 366 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 1: remember any of them today? Not? Really? It was it 367 00:19:57,160 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 1: was it was kind of apocalyptic in its nature. I 368 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 1: think that you know there's no hope for mankind or 369 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,360 Speaker 1: something like that. Okay, And was it something you dashed 370 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:08,439 Speaker 1: off or something you took seriously, this is my chance. 371 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:11,440 Speaker 1: It's something I did for homework book and just worked 372 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 1: out really well and that kind and then I got 373 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:17,400 Speaker 1: the I failed all my exams except English. You get 374 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 1: to read on the radio. That must be big, you know. 375 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:23,639 Speaker 1: It was a big inspiration. It inspired me. Inspired me 376 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,679 Speaker 1: because I always liked to sing a songwriter, you know. 377 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 1: I started with Paul Simon and graduated very quickly on 378 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,240 Speaker 1: the Bob Dylan. I had a job in a hardware 379 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 1: store on Saturdays, and the hardware store had a record 380 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:35,920 Speaker 1: shop in the basement, so I spent all my money 381 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 1: on discounting vinyl and earlier and I got Bob Dylan's 382 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:42,640 Speaker 1: Greatest It's the original version, which has all the early 383 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 1: stuff on it. And that really that really inspired me. Okay, 384 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:50,160 Speaker 1: So you're writing songs. Are you gathering together with friends 385 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 1: to play these songs? Well, this is the thing. The 386 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 1: kid next door. When I turned sixteen, I can hear 387 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 1: the kid next door playing his electric guitar through the war. 388 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 1: He's fourteen and he's working his way through the watch 389 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: Shoot Songbook. So I get my dad to buy me 390 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 1: a Nylon strong Spanish guitar, and I get the kidnext 391 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:12,919 Speaker 1: or to teach me how I played. I remember that's 392 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,919 Speaker 1: how I started the nightline. They're not easy to play, No, 393 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:19,159 Speaker 1: they're not. And it's you know, it's the just thing 394 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:20,880 Speaker 1: of get one end to do this and the other 395 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:23,920 Speaker 1: rand to do something completely different. It's not easy. But 396 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:26,359 Speaker 1: as I say, I was learning songs I really loved 397 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:28,399 Speaker 1: at the watch Shot song But because he covered they 398 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:31,439 Speaker 1: learn and he covered a lot of great songwriters, so 399 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: I was quite into these songs. And let's stop here 400 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:38,360 Speaker 1: for a second. A lot of punks had a negative 401 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 1: attitude towards what came before, and were you part of that? 402 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:44,880 Speaker 1: I was when it got to ninety seventy seven, year 403 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:47,879 Speaker 1: I was. I was a year zero kid, although it 404 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:51,680 Speaker 1: wasn't everything. I remember I gave all my Eagles albums 405 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 1: to the woman in the post office who I liked. 406 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:56,919 Speaker 1: She was a good friend. She was into the Eagles 407 00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 1: and I used to see her and I was like, 408 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:01,240 Speaker 1: I've got to get rid of these. I cut my hair, 409 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 1: I got some narrow legged trousers. It's got within my 410 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:08,879 Speaker 1: flares um. But by this time I was in a band. 411 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 1: I was playing you hear the Electric Guitar, through the Door, 412 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:16,680 Speaker 1: through the Wall, You buy the Nyeline guitar. Then what well? 413 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:18,720 Speaker 1: Me and the kid next door, Wiggy, were playing the 414 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 1: back room with friends around the corner, and we went 415 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:22,920 Speaker 1: to school. It was a year older than me, plays drums. 416 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,680 Speaker 1: We start, you know, hanging out, and we've become a 417 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 1: little gang in my back room. We're predominantly playing the 418 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 1: Faces the Stones, a lot of old rock and roll songs, 419 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:38,960 Speaker 1: and writing our own songs as well. That's yeah, this 420 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 1: is like an apprenticeship, you know. I worked out out 421 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:45,160 Speaker 1: how some of the Faces songs were basically guitar riffs 422 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:47,680 Speaker 1: that they just attached words to rather than verse chorus things, 423 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:49,879 Speaker 1: and explain this to Wiggy and he came up with 424 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: riffs and I just attached words to him. So that 425 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:55,439 Speaker 1: sounded like where is Where is Wiggy today? He's living 426 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:57,879 Speaker 1: still where we grew up, not very far away. His 427 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:00,679 Speaker 1: dad still lives in the house next door to the 428 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:02,719 Speaker 1: house I grew up in, although my since my mom 429 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 1: passed away, my nephew loose there now, so I see 430 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:08,439 Speaker 1: him quite regularly. Okay, so you're playing Are you playing 431 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 1: out or you just no, no, no, no, nothing like that. 432 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,200 Speaker 1: We're waiting to be discovered, but we're trying. But the 433 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 1: dream is intact. Yeah, okay, you think, Yeah, the dream 434 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,399 Speaker 1: is forming. The dream is forming, and it's punk. I 435 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:24,159 Speaker 1: saw you move your hands, and that's something to do 436 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:26,879 Speaker 1: with the money that the dreamer is that money, it's that, 437 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:30,440 Speaker 1: it's attraction. It's some kind of traction for a dream. 438 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 1: Dreams need traction. Um. It's punk that makes us realize 439 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 1: that the way to be in a band is to 440 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 1: be in a band, not to wait for someone to 441 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:40,800 Speaker 1: come and tell you of being a Bandnestly, the clash 442 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:42,639 Speaker 1: more than so than the jam. I don't know what 443 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 1: I think the clash think about the clash was they 444 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:47,200 Speaker 1: did all the things we like to the rolling stones, 445 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 1: but about the ronges size. But they were our age, 446 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 1: so we kind of some of us more than others. 447 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 1: I think I was more into it than the other. Well, 448 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,639 Speaker 1: that's my question. You're forming this band, and did you 449 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:00,399 Speaker 1: quickly realized wait a second, I have more desire than 450 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:01,920 Speaker 1: the other. Oh no, we were at the same desire. 451 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 1: We just didn't want have the same aircrat and I 452 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:05,879 Speaker 1: think that's always a problem in the band. But what 453 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 1: happened was in the summer of seventy seven we decided 454 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:12,879 Speaker 1: we were all wanted to go on holiday together somewhere 455 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 1: where we could stay up and make music all night, 456 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 1: because we couldn't do that our parents. So we found 457 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:21,679 Speaker 1: this um rehearsal studio demo studio in the country and 458 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 1: we went there for a week out of the country 459 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:28,400 Speaker 1: with We're in Northamptonshire, which is how far from East London. Oh, 460 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 1: I would say it's two hours. Were okay, you know, 461 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:32,960 Speaker 1: but we were all completely We're all, you know, not 462 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,359 Speaker 1: nothing for miles around it but fields and forests and 463 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 1: what is paying for this our work? We're all worked 464 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:42,919 Speaker 1: Pard I'm nineteen and seventy seven, WIGGI will be seventeen twenties, 465 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 1: so we're all at work. Um And we kind of 466 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:50,119 Speaker 1: went to the studio and never really came home after 467 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,720 Speaker 1: after going back and forth there a few times. The 468 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,399 Speaker 1: people who ran it were really great for us because 469 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 1: they they gave us a confidence. You know, that week, 470 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 1: I must have written a dozen songs while we were there. 471 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:04,360 Speaker 1: We did stay up all night. We did well why 472 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 1: why did the people give you confidence? Well, because our 473 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 1: parents were like, you know, we might as well be 474 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:13,919 Speaker 1: uh collecting stamps. As far as my parents concerned, it 475 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 1: was a hobby and I should get a proper job, 476 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,919 Speaker 1: you know. Okay, So at this point, yeah, the office job, 477 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 1: office boy down at the ducks. The office. It was 478 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 1: in the central London, in the City of London. It 479 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:26,399 Speaker 1: was cut down the docks. It was that. It was 480 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 1: the I think I maybe by then I was even 481 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 1: a bank messenger. I think I've moved up. It was 482 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:33,400 Speaker 1: a bank messenger and you're still living at home? Yeah, 483 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:36,199 Speaker 1: what the cusure thing that has happened? Since getting the 484 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,399 Speaker 1: first guitar and going to the studios and my father's 485 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 1: passed away in Nix when I was eighteen years That 486 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:44,399 Speaker 1: must have really fun Well, it kind of did, Bob. 487 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:46,639 Speaker 1: It was a long time coming. He had lung cancer. 488 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 1: But as he died and I had to sort of 489 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,120 Speaker 1: get to grips with not being a kid anymore, punk happened, 490 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: and punk became the sort of life raft that I 491 00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,680 Speaker 1: sailed away from my childhood and that terrible period where 492 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 1: where my dad was getting worse and worse and worse 493 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 1: and worse. It was almost like everything stopped in my life, 494 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,720 Speaker 1: just stopped while that was going on. And then it 495 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:11,720 Speaker 1: ended and there was punk was there, and I was 496 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,719 Speaker 1: able to step onto that and and sort of right 497 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 1: away to the next part of my life. So I 498 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:27,639 Speaker 1: was very fortunate in that. Okay, so you're working as 499 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:31,199 Speaker 1: a as a bank messenger and you're making music, and 500 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:35,440 Speaker 1: what's the next step. Next step is that we move. 501 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 1: All the guys in the band we decided to move 502 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,720 Speaker 1: to the farm, to the to the studio, except the 503 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 1: guy who has an apprenticeship at Fords. He decided to 504 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,239 Speaker 1: stay at Forwards, which is understandable. And we live up 505 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:50,199 Speaker 1: in easternalth, Camptainshire for eighteen months and you do what 506 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:55,119 Speaker 1: for a living, nothing, So you're living off what of 507 00:26:55,240 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 1: the government's unemployment benefit, which in those days was not 508 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:02,679 Speaker 1: not not a bad thing. A lot of people are 509 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:05,440 Speaker 1: on the dolls. So the taxpayers kind of pay for 510 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:07,399 Speaker 1: my apprenticeship. That's why I don't mind paying my taxes. 511 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 1: I think it's only fair to pay some back. Um. 512 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 1: And yeah, we had a great time up there. We 513 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 1: were legendary in that town when you obviously played live 514 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 1: there all the time. Yeah, We had a residency at 515 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 1: a pub Sunday afternoon residency where local punk bands would 516 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 1: come and play. And in that town, in that community, 517 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:29,200 Speaker 1: we were the punks, but we meant absolutely nothing outside 518 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:32,680 Speaker 1: that community. But there were great people and we really 519 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 1: had it. It's very formative. My mole manager Peter Jenner, 520 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,919 Speaker 1: used to say that I didn't go to university. I 521 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 1: went to riff Raft. That was the name of the band, 522 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 1: and that isn't deed true. Okay, a couple of things. 523 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:46,719 Speaker 1: Didn't you go on the military at one? That's why 524 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 1: happens next? The band breaks up? Why does the BM 525 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:54,879 Speaker 1: break up? Well, we had to move back to London 526 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 1: and the drummer winner to stay there and me and 527 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 1: we wanted to go back, and so we got a 528 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 1: couple of other guys in. But it weren't the same. 529 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:05,639 Speaker 1: This wasn't the same, and the venues we played in 530 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 1: were disappearing, and a new breed of pop stars was 531 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 1: coming along who put style over content, and we've always 532 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 1: been content of his style for punk rock. And in 533 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:21,920 Speaker 1: order to get gigs, you have to have a sympathizer 534 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:26,600 Speaker 1: and a funny haircut, and I've never had either. Our 535 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:30,240 Speaker 1: time had come and gone, and did you literally literally 536 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:32,439 Speaker 1: give up the dream? Say, you know, time passed me by. 537 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 1: I didn't make it, kind of joined the army to 538 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 1: press the eject button on my previous existence. That was 539 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 1: the aim of it. Now, if you join the army, 540 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 1: theoretically you get your ass shut off. Well, yes and no, 541 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 1: it depends what you do. I mean, basically, at the time, 542 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 1: the only place you get yours shot off was in 543 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 1: Northern Ireland. But I told him I didn't want to 544 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 1: go there, so they put me in an Irish regiment. 545 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 1: Because the Irish regiments didn't go there. Because you don't 546 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 1: want to take some guy off the streets of Dairy 547 00:28:58,040 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 1: and teach them how to shoot and then send him 548 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 1: back to harass his neighbors. It's not a good idea, 549 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 1: so I kind of mitigated against that. But a terrible 550 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 1: thing is bob. But once you've driven one tank, you've 551 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 1: driven them all, to be honest with you, So well, 552 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 1: let's start for the beginning. Did you drive a tank 553 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 1: here for a while? Really, And you're saying, I just 554 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 1: want to understand, because you know, I grew up in 555 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 1: the air of the sixties when we were all anti 556 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 1: military it's hard to see it flip in front of 557 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 1: my eyes now. But are you saying there was no 558 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 1: room for growth personal growth or you're saying what what 559 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 1: in the army? No, there was. There was a realization 560 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:36,240 Speaker 1: quite early on that this wasn't going to cure me 561 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 1: if wanted to be a singer songwriter. In fact, it 562 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 1: maybe wanted to write more songs. So because we have 563 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 1: a volunteer army, you can buy yourself out at any time. Well, 564 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 1: it gets harder and more trained you are. But I 565 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 1: brought myself out more or less at the end of 566 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,800 Speaker 1: basic training, so I'd barely driven a tank. And how 567 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 1: long was basic training? All? It was about four months? Okay, 568 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 1: I gotta ask, though you're in the army, can you 569 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 1: relate to any of these people? What a lot of 570 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 1: working class lads like me it were nowhere to go. 571 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 1: You know in those days if if you you couldn't 572 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 1: read and couldn't write, but we're physically fit, there was 573 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:17,120 Speaker 1: a job there for you. Now you can't do that anymore, okay, 574 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:19,719 Speaker 1: So you buy yourself out of the army. The dream 575 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,800 Speaker 1: is rekindled and you do what. I spend a year 576 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 1: working out out how to start doing gigs again, solo 577 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 1: with an electric guitar, start writing songs and that in 578 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 1: that style, and playing anywhere anyone would have me for nothing, 579 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,960 Speaker 1: just carrying a little a little practice amp. And then 580 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 1: did you have a da job? At that time? I 581 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 1: was very fortunate and I bumped into an old mate 582 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 1: of mine from the basement record store in the Harbord shop. 583 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 1: He was running a record shop, and he gave me 584 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 1: some work, okay, and he got to listen to the music. 585 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 1: Did yeah, okay? It was interest you because it was 586 00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 1: an entire chain of records record stores that sold only cutouts. Really, yeah, 587 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 1: there was a guy had a big church and these 588 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 1: most people who don't know back in the days of 589 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,719 Speaker 1: physical when something was deleted from the catalog, when they 590 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 1: weren't going to manufacture it anymore or they had overstocked, 591 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 1: they literally put a cut in the cover and they 592 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 1: would sell it at a discount and there were no 593 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 1: royalties to the acts to boots, that's right. And so 594 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:24,640 Speaker 1: he had and he hired me the boss because I 595 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 1: was the only one who knew anything about punk, and 596 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 1: he would take me to bankrupt record stores and asked 597 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:31,920 Speaker 1: me to value of the punk stuff. Look at the 598 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 1: punk stuff, so you knew the other stuff you didn't 599 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 1: know show about punk. I would have to go in 600 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:36,960 Speaker 1: and one day I found one of our records of 601 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 1: raft records. Made me laugh. But I get a lot 602 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:41,720 Speaker 1: of a lot of stuff you have was white labels, 603 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:44,840 Speaker 1: get boxes of white labels. And I would spend a 604 00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:46,480 Speaker 1: lot of time during the day in the shop while 605 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 1: there were customers in the shop, planning the white labels, 606 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 1: trying to work out what they are and writing on 607 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 1: them what they aren't, setting them for a quid or something. 608 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 1: So it was it was good. The dangerous thing was 609 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:57,960 Speaker 1: going to the warehouse. You know, if you went to 610 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,960 Speaker 1: the warehouse where the records were kept. Another thing from 611 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 1: the days of physical your listeners might not know how 612 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,960 Speaker 1: heavy records were. There was always a danger that there 613 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 1: could be an avalanche of copies of all this and 614 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:12,960 Speaker 1: World War two the soundtrack you could get buried under them. 615 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 1: There were a lot of those in the warehouse. Do 616 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:19,600 Speaker 1: you remember that record, yes, exactly, so, yeah, those are 617 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 1: the days. Those are my days in the bowels of 618 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 1: the record industry and all this entire chain run on. 619 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,720 Speaker 1: You know, what was the name Low Price Records run 620 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 1: on nothing more than the detritus. You run a whole. 621 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 1: I think had six shops run just on the detritus 622 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 1: of the record industry. I gotta ask, because that's the 623 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 1: second word you used, which if you're an American, that 624 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:44,080 Speaker 1: would be evidence of higher education. You said, as you 625 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 1: pronounced an inclement, we might say inclement here, and you 626 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 1: said the traders. Would these be words come up casually 627 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,440 Speaker 1: in the UK? Or are you separate from the average 628 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 1: working Oh no, almost. I'm a wordsmith. I do have 629 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,440 Speaker 1: a you know, previous collection of archaic words because I 630 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:04,720 Speaker 1: need him to rhyme with things. But I was trying 631 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 1: to I was trying to um by saying to try this. 632 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:13,959 Speaker 1: I was trying to suggest that these songs, these records 633 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 1: one rubbish. I've got some I've got some great white libelar. No, no, no, 634 00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:18,920 Speaker 1: I know exactly what you're talking about. You know, you said, 635 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,200 Speaker 1: just not the issue. It's just you don't get the 636 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 1: average musician using those particular terms. Anyway, you're playing and 637 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 1: you're slinging the cutouts, and what happens after that. I 638 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:35,320 Speaker 1: start too, of the guy I work with who's also musician. 639 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 1: He's a bass play of jazz funk band Steve Goldstein. 640 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:43,600 Speaker 1: He buys a Reporter studio, which is like a little 641 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 1: recording deck that you can Most people don't know there 642 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:50,040 Speaker 1: are four tracks on a cassette, usually two in each direction, 643 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 1: and I don't know if Tiak was the first one 644 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 1: that was you know, yeah, and they used all four 645 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,960 Speaker 1: tracks in one direction. So it's kind of like recording 646 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 1: the garage ban today but on a primitive, very primitive. 647 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 1: But he bought this. He was so excited about it 648 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:06,520 Speaker 1: and he wanted to test it out. So he invited 649 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:09,320 Speaker 1: me to come and make some demos his mum's flat 650 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 1: where he lived. And I totally up for this because 651 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,080 Speaker 1: I was writing the loads of his solo songs. So 652 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:17,319 Speaker 1: I went along and demo my songs and I sent 653 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,799 Speaker 1: them to The Melody Maker, which was a weekly newspaper, 654 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,359 Speaker 1: one of four we had music papers in the UK. 655 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:30,240 Speaker 1: It was Melody Maker, Enemy, Sounds in Mirror, and the 656 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:33,760 Speaker 1: They had a page called Playback where they reviewed demo 657 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 1: tapes and a guy named Adam Sweeting gave mine a 658 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:40,319 Speaker 1: fabulous review. Absolutely, did you think it was as good 659 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:43,239 Speaker 1: as his review? I had no idea, mate, but I 660 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:47,040 Speaker 1: can tell you that when my then girlfriend who worked 661 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 1: in the in the West Ends, so I've got the 662 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 1: newspapers a day early and we got him in the 663 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:56,240 Speaker 1: suburb the music papers read it to me over the phone. 664 00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,839 Speaker 1: Almost wept. I'll tell you why, because it was the 665 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,120 Speaker 1: US intimation I got that I might actually be able 666 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:05,320 Speaker 1: to do this job and it might work. It really 667 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:10,480 Speaker 1: was like a validation the like of which no reviewers 668 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,200 Speaker 1: ever had. The same fact just I'm cheering up a 669 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:15,360 Speaker 1: little bit now just thinking about it. That moment it 670 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:17,799 Speaker 1: was I just closed the shops. That must have been 671 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,879 Speaker 1: around six some was setting so the shop was full 672 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,239 Speaker 1: of beautiful light. It was almost like, you know what, 673 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:28,640 Speaker 1: this might actually happen. It might actually happen. So it was. 674 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:33,480 Speaker 1: It had my phone number on the bottom of the review, 675 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:35,840 Speaker 1: and I was phoned by a guy who worked for 676 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:39,840 Speaker 1: Chapel Music Publishers named Jeff Chegman. He invited me to 677 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:43,719 Speaker 1: come and make some demos. Nobody else there was particularly interested, 678 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,200 Speaker 1: but he gave me a day in their demo studio 679 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:51,600 Speaker 1: with their engineer. We record a dozen songs and um. 680 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:54,239 Speaker 1: Around the same time, I had a residency and a 681 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:58,120 Speaker 1: rather sort of rough spit and sawed US joint called 682 00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:05,719 Speaker 1: The Tunnel in Southeast London, a pub, and I was 683 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 1: I was doing pretty well there, but I started sending 684 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,560 Speaker 1: this the original demo type that I had made on 685 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:14,719 Speaker 1: the Port studio. I sent out to record companies but 686 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:18,360 Speaker 1: not got any anywhere. And I started going to record 687 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:20,239 Speaker 1: companies and going in reception, and I'd get a few 688 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:22,160 Speaker 1: names and try and ask her see someone. I didn't 689 00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:26,879 Speaker 1: know anybody, and I went on. One day, I went 690 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:31,520 Speaker 1: to Charisma Records. I was looking for a guy named 691 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:34,400 Speaker 1: Peter Jenna. Okay, I mean I know Peter Jenna, original 692 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:37,840 Speaker 1: manager of Pig Floyd. Certainly you're a manager. Did you 693 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:40,160 Speaker 1: know who he was? At that point I met I 694 00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:42,440 Speaker 1: got his name from a guy who painted backdrops from 695 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 1: the clash who I know. And when I said I 696 00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:46,960 Speaker 1: was looking for a manager was political and like a 697 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:49,400 Speaker 1: father figure, he said, I know blow like that Jenna, 698 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:52,120 Speaker 1: That's who he is. Yeah, exactly, And it was in 699 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 1: my career um, but at the time he was a 700 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:57,719 Speaker 1: and R and for Charisma. So I went there with 701 00:36:57,760 --> 00:36:59,759 Speaker 1: my demo and I asked for him a reception. I 702 00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:02,440 Speaker 1: was it in there and I was not really getting 703 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 1: any looked like I wasn't going to get in same 704 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:07,319 Speaker 1: as everywhere else. When someone put their head around the 705 00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:09,799 Speaker 1: corner and said to me, are you the guy who's 706 00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:13,760 Speaker 1: come to tune in the video? Now? At the time, 707 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:17,160 Speaker 1: I was working with Wiggy sort of part time. Wiggy 708 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,960 Speaker 1: was doing audio visual presentations for companies, and not many 709 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:29,200 Speaker 1: coupanies was two. Not many companies had video machines, so 710 00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:31,759 Speaker 1: we would take a video recorder with us, and while 711 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:33,640 Speaker 1: Wiggy was doing the warm up, I'd crawl under the 712 00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:36,880 Speaker 1: telly and tune in their TV to this video machine. 713 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:40,560 Speaker 1: So although I wasn't the person who had come to 714 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,560 Speaker 1: tune in the video, I was capable of tuning in 715 00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:47,080 Speaker 1: the video. So without a moment's thought, I said, yeah, 716 00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:49,120 Speaker 1: I am so. She said great, come this way, took 717 00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:53,239 Speaker 1: me into the recording to a record company, crawled under 718 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:54,719 Speaker 1: their telly, tuned in their video. I think they were 719 00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:56,960 Speaker 1: watching Peter Gabriel, who was on the first edition. So 720 00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,200 Speaker 1: you actually did do the show for sure. It wasn't 721 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:02,799 Speaker 1: a complete blag. I've done it, so I don't feel 722 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:04,960 Speaker 1: I don't feel guilty about lying because I did do it, 723 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:08,360 Speaker 1: all right, let's get that straight, um. And then I 724 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,120 Speaker 1: said I said to um, we're all standing around watching. 725 00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:13,839 Speaker 1: I said to this woman, he's Peter Jenner about there. 726 00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:17,360 Speaker 1: So I went over and laid my tape on him 727 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:20,760 Speaker 1: and bless him. He came to see me at the tunnel. Okay, 728 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:22,920 Speaker 1: did he play it while you were there? But he 729 00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:28,319 Speaker 1: came to see me at the tunnel and he he 730 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:32,759 Speaker 1: later said that when he came to the town there 731 00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:34,520 Speaker 1: was an electric atmosphere in the room. While I was 732 00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:36,480 Speaker 1: on stage, he spoke to a woman at the bar 733 00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:41,919 Speaker 1: and she said, I was. I was brilliant. And when 734 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:44,279 Speaker 1: I finished, because he was late, he'd gone there's two 735 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 1: tunnels under the river gone he'd gone through the wrong one, 736 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:48,960 Speaker 1: So he was typical Pete Starle. He was late, so 737 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:50,480 Speaker 1: he didn't see the gig. He just saw the end 738 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,920 Speaker 1: of it. But he's he He said to me, we 739 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,040 Speaker 1: must do something, however trivial. That was his line to 740 00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:57,799 Speaker 1: me as he left, because he left straight away. What 741 00:38:57,840 --> 00:38:59,719 Speaker 1: he didn't know was just before he'd arrived there'd been 742 00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:02,200 Speaker 1: a and the reasons for the electric app here was 743 00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:04,080 Speaker 1: I was trying to hold the room, if you know 744 00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:06,399 Speaker 1: what I mean, stop it breaking out again. The woman 745 00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:09,160 Speaker 1: he spoke to the bars and my then girlfriend so 746 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:13,640 Speaker 1: and amongst all this, we kind of we kind of 747 00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:16,279 Speaker 1: and only got sacked. He got sacked by Charisma after 748 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:20,160 Speaker 1: we put the record out. Uh, he put the record 749 00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:21,680 Speaker 1: out and he just gave me twenty five and says, 750 00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:24,680 Speaker 1: if youn't get any radio plays on that, I'm not. 751 00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:26,239 Speaker 1: I thought that you were supposed to do this. He said, 752 00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:28,759 Speaker 1: get out, go to the BBC. So I went to 753 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:30,920 Speaker 1: the BBC and I left some copies. I left a 754 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:35,440 Speaker 1: copy for John Peele, famous most famous DJ and the 755 00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:38,560 Speaker 1: nighttime g J who had the ability to break bands 756 00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:42,360 Speaker 1: and give your sessions. I left it there and that 757 00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:44,440 Speaker 1: night I was in Hyde Park, which is the other 758 00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:47,920 Speaker 1: end of oxfor Street from Broadcasting US, playing football with 759 00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:50,319 Speaker 1: some mates and afterwards we were having a few beers 760 00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:53,960 Speaker 1: and we were listening to the BBC the program before Peel, 761 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:58,359 Speaker 1: which is Kit Jensen, and Peel came in to talk 762 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:00,800 Speaker 1: about what's on his show, and he's it Ki Jensen. 763 00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:04,040 Speaker 1: I would do anything for a mushroom bery. Ay, it 764 00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:07,040 Speaker 1: is the form of a curry So a light went 765 00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:09,080 Speaker 1: on in my head, so I went down. I walked 766 00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:11,400 Speaker 1: down the back of Ox Street, bought the curry berry. 767 00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:15,000 Speaker 1: Only went to broadcastings and said to the concierge curry 768 00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:18,920 Speaker 1: for Mr Peel. They rang him. He come down. He 769 00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:21,880 Speaker 1: physically come down to take the curry off me. So 770 00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:23,760 Speaker 1: I was able to say to my man's Billy Bragg, 771 00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:26,359 Speaker 1: I left a record for you today life The Right 772 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:29,160 Speaker 1: spy Us is by great if you could ever listen 773 00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:32,080 Speaker 1: to it, it's like fine took the bury ony I 774 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:34,800 Speaker 1: tuned in that night. Not only did he play the record, 775 00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:37,880 Speaker 1: he said thanks very much for the buryany Billy I 776 00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:40,080 Speaker 1: would have played it anyway. And it was the beginning 777 00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:42,680 Speaker 1: of I'd like to think of a real friendship between 778 00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:46,840 Speaker 1: myself and and the great Man. Okay, so now you 779 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:51,560 Speaker 1: have your start. Is it a relatively you know, it's 780 00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:53,840 Speaker 1: hard to do on the radio talk about graphs and engles. 781 00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:56,360 Speaker 1: Is it steady going up or is it ups and downs? 782 00:40:56,440 --> 00:41:00,400 Speaker 1: That's about ups and downs to start with, because particularly 783 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:04,239 Speaker 1: because Charisma the record label, so it's taken over just 784 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:07,480 Speaker 1: after my record comes out on on the Utility label. 785 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:11,480 Speaker 1: The record labels taken over by Virgin, So everything goes sideways, 786 00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:16,719 Speaker 1: including my record. But a guy named Andy McDonald um 787 00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:20,680 Speaker 1: ran a label Leslie Simmons and together they rescued my 788 00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:24,360 Speaker 1: record and rereleased it later that year, and by the 789 00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:26,400 Speaker 1: time we get to the new year, it's number one 790 00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:28,279 Speaker 1: in the independent charts, which was a big deal in 791 00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:30,799 Speaker 1: those days. How do you think it got there? Well, 792 00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:34,360 Speaker 1: partly because of I was really really working hard doing gigs. 793 00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,200 Speaker 1: Peel was playing it put he put New England in 794 00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:40,200 Speaker 1: his Festive fifty in the top five. I think it's 795 00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:48,520 Speaker 1: Festive fifty, um Andy and um go this we're doing 796 00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:50,239 Speaker 1: a good job with it. Was he was a good 797 00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:52,200 Speaker 1: promotion man him unless he did a really great job 798 00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:55,280 Speaker 1: on it. And Pete Janna, you know, was old hand. 799 00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:58,680 Speaker 1: So it's like a collaboration. Everybody put their reference. Yeah, 800 00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:00,759 Speaker 1: my willingness to do as many because they threw at 801 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:02,920 Speaker 1: me and to go and literally, I mean it literally 802 00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:07,359 Speaker 1: was um out on the road with a amping one 803 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:09,120 Speaker 1: hand guitar, only having a pack on my back on 804 00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:12,600 Speaker 1: trains so I didn't drive in and my agent would 805 00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:16,640 Speaker 1: just put set me up with um support acts for 806 00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:18,920 Speaker 1: bigger bands, and I was just try and steal the audience. 807 00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:20,400 Speaker 1: So by the time we got to Christmas, I was 808 00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:26,000 Speaker 1: doing my own headliners. Okay, that record is successful, what's 809 00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:30,160 Speaker 1: the next step? America, America. I get a shout in 810 00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:32,960 Speaker 1: this in this August night, four do I want to 811 00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,319 Speaker 1: come to the unit sets of America and open for 812 00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:39,440 Speaker 1: that kind of moneyment on their first American tour? So 813 00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:42,040 Speaker 1: I do so I get I'll call Wiggy say, Wiggy, 814 00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:44,880 Speaker 1: this is it, mate, I'm going to tour America for 815 00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:48,360 Speaker 1: a month. I may never do this again. You've got 816 00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:50,680 Speaker 1: to come with me. You've got to come with me. 817 00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:52,480 Speaker 1: This is what we dreamed about doing. Come on, let's 818 00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:55,279 Speaker 1: do this. I'll pay for it. I'll pay for that, 819 00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:56,759 Speaker 1: you know, I'll pay you to do it. Come and 820 00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,080 Speaker 1: roady for me. Play a couple of songs, get on 821 00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:00,799 Speaker 1: the back of the bus with Bunnyment, and that's what 822 00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:03,200 Speaker 1: we did. We went coast to coast, north to south. 823 00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:07,920 Speaker 1: It was just amazing, and to do it with Wiggy 824 00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:10,480 Speaker 1: really was for me. It was the the sort of 825 00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:16,200 Speaker 1: combination of ever we went. We got to. We got 826 00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:18,400 Speaker 1: to Los Angeles at the end of the tour the 827 00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:19,960 Speaker 1: Bunnyment and we were there for a couple of days. 828 00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:22,960 Speaker 1: We went to the car, drove to the end of 829 00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:26,640 Speaker 1: Sunset Boulevard, end of Root and walked down to Paddle 830 00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:30,720 Speaker 1: in the Pacific ocean and had a moment like our 831 00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:33,920 Speaker 1: sort of sixteen year old selves kind of saw us 832 00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:36,080 Speaker 1: there or we saw them, and we we came off 833 00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:38,839 Speaker 1: the We've all got very emotional in weeks. Someone's going down. 834 00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:42,759 Speaker 1: We saw as we came off the beach an English pub, 835 00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:45,000 Speaker 1: which is too good. So we went to go and 836 00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:48,360 Speaker 1: have a point to celebrate. And it wouldn't let us 837 00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:51,880 Speaker 1: think because we didn't have I d totally killed it. 838 00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:54,120 Speaker 1: We're like, you don't have to have idea in English pub? 839 00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:57,000 Speaker 1: No idea? No, Okay. At what point do you make 840 00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:00,000 Speaker 1: a deal with the Electra? Oh? That comes shortly there 841 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,919 Speaker 1: after Pete, because I go back to America about three 842 00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:05,719 Speaker 1: times in the following year, and Pete gets me to 843 00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:12,400 Speaker 1: deal with Electra on tax mouth. I think it's a taxi. Okay, 844 00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:16,600 Speaker 1: So in this period we will call your heyday. Do 845 00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:20,799 Speaker 1: you achieve your goals? Yeah? I do. I mean lots 846 00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:25,040 Speaker 1: of very interesting women, have very interesting conversations with them 847 00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:26,960 Speaker 1: with no clothes on. That was one of my goals 848 00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:29,360 Speaker 1: I'm not ashamed of. So wait, wait, wait, wait, so 849 00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:31,719 Speaker 1: you're not a closer. You said no, no, no, without 850 00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:33,880 Speaker 1: any clothes on, Bob, I'm trying to put it in 851 00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:35,879 Speaker 1: a nice way, One of the reasons why I wanted 852 00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:39,200 Speaker 1: to be in a band was was to impress girls. 853 00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:43,319 Speaker 1: So you know that kind of well that worked once 854 00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:46,200 Speaker 1: you're on stage. We know that's an established formula, but 855 00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:49,200 Speaker 1: one has to ask. I mean, you're a very verbal guy. 856 00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:52,120 Speaker 1: Was your act working before you had some level of 857 00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:55,200 Speaker 1: fame on the stage? Yeah, it was, it was, it 858 00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:59,640 Speaker 1: was working, but the the guitar and the English accent 859 00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:03,360 Speaker 1: really kind of helped. Okay, any of these women you 860 00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:05,799 Speaker 1: have contact with today, Yeah, I do quite a few 861 00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:07,720 Speaker 1: of them. Actually, I'd like to think I've remained friends 862 00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:10,160 Speaker 1: with with with quite a few of them. You know, 863 00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:12,600 Speaker 1: it's what you do when you're in your twenties. You know. 864 00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:17,840 Speaker 1: That was my my kind of period of heightened sexual activity. 865 00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:20,640 Speaker 1: What happened to be on the road, So it had 866 00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:24,120 Speaker 1: a had a double edge sort because I was learning 867 00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:25,440 Speaker 1: a lot as I was traveling as well. You know, 868 00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:28,279 Speaker 1: it wasn't just me in one particular area. It was 869 00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:32,799 Speaker 1: it was a great time to be out in the road. 870 00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:38,319 Speaker 1: And at this point, are you're touring solo mostly? Yeah? Completely, yeah, okay, 871 00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:42,600 Speaker 1: and then you ultimately have a backpack and amplifier. No, no, no, 872 00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:44,839 Speaker 1: I don't ultimately have that pe Jena dream set up 873 00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:50,080 Speaker 1: as a way of getting people's attention. It's a complete 874 00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:52,840 Speaker 1: pain in the ass because it weighs a ton, it 875 00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:56,080 Speaker 1: feeds back, and it's the most of the weights across 876 00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:58,600 Speaker 1: your diaphragm. It's like a backpack, so you can't really 877 00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:01,840 Speaker 1: get along full of I complained about it mercilessly. It 878 00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:06,160 Speaker 1: got me a bad back. But Jenna damn him said 879 00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:08,759 Speaker 1: at the time that but people will remember this bill, 880 00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:13,280 Speaker 1: and you're comment there that annoyingly proves him right. Okay, 881 00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:17,319 Speaker 1: so the down term in term, you know, everyone's got 882 00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:22,880 Speaker 1: a relatively brief window where they are the center of attention. Now, 883 00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:26,919 Speaker 1: would you say the moment passes or you would say 884 00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:30,480 Speaker 1: the internet comes and decimates. No, no, the moment the 885 00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:35,200 Speaker 1: moment passes. Basically my my, my, heighter that would be 886 00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:40,439 Speaker 1: working with in the UK with a Labor Party around 887 00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:43,440 Speaker 1: red Wedge and the minor strike. That that very particularly 888 00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:50,600 Speaker 1: that very political um opposition to Margaret Thatcher and policies 889 00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:54,080 Speaker 1: and in the in the US to Ronald Reagan um, 890 00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:56,319 Speaker 1: and that was kind of that's that's what defines me 891 00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:58,120 Speaker 1: for a lot of people still, and I'm cool with that. 892 00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:01,120 Speaker 1: I don't mind being called a political songwriter. I write 893 00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:03,760 Speaker 1: more love songs than I write political songs. My problem 894 00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:06,880 Speaker 1: is being dismissed as a political songwriter, people thinking they 895 00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:11,840 Speaker 1: did you weak? Did you grow up in a political house? No? 896 00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:15,480 Speaker 1: I don't really know. So how did you become, you know, 897 00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:18,239 Speaker 1: inspired to speak out on your political It's all down 898 00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:20,400 Speaker 1: to the inspiration of one person I knever forget her name. 899 00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:24,319 Speaker 1: It was Margaret Thatcher of my time. If you look, 900 00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:26,360 Speaker 1: if you look at my first couple of albums, the 901 00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:29,320 Speaker 1: politics is personal. Just because you're better than me doesn't 902 00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:32,759 Speaker 1: mean I'm lazy. Tax Man, I'm writing songs that's a 903 00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:35,840 Speaker 1: message we need more today than ever. Yeah, exactly. But 904 00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:38,399 Speaker 1: by tax man, I'm writing there is parent union. I'm 905 00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:42,080 Speaker 1: writing songs called ideology. What's happened is the minor strikers happened. 906 00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:45,600 Speaker 1: And for my generation, the minor strike, what do you 907 00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:51,120 Speaker 1: experienced upon that? For those in the Conservative government provoked 908 00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:54,720 Speaker 1: the National Union mine workers into a year long strike 909 00:47:55,239 --> 00:48:00,000 Speaker 1: that ultimately uh led to the not just a defeat 910 00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:02,800 Speaker 1: of miners, but the defeat of organized labor in my country. 911 00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:09,480 Speaker 1: And it was a destructive uh um, destructive of unions, 912 00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:13,240 Speaker 1: but also destructive of communities and spirit broke the working 913 00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:18,680 Speaker 1: class spirit in my country. And so uh you know, 914 00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:21,400 Speaker 1: having grown up listening to all those political singer songwriters 915 00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:23,640 Speaker 1: in the nine in sixties, when the strike happened, I thought, okay, 916 00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:24,920 Speaker 1: well this is where I get to find out if 917 00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:26,880 Speaker 1: music and change the world. So I did everything I 918 00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:32,200 Speaker 1: could two use the tarant that I had the platform. 919 00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:35,080 Speaker 1: Not I had to make the case for not just 920 00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:37,840 Speaker 1: an organized labor, but for a compassionate society, which is 921 00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:43,560 Speaker 1: what you run up against internal pressure not to do that. Yeah, 922 00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:49,600 Speaker 1: of course the um. One of Thatcher's ministers used to 923 00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:51,480 Speaker 1: complain to the BBC if they put me on air. 924 00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:55,759 Speaker 1: You know, he's a guy named Norman Tebbitt. Was complained 925 00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:58,000 Speaker 1: and how much Once again, you're in a different market 926 00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:04,560 Speaker 1: place than America and we're a very ethnocentric and self obsessed. 927 00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:07,960 Speaker 1: How much exposure do you get in that era of 928 00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:11,200 Speaker 1: the minor strike? Quite a bit? Quite a bit really, 929 00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:16,400 Speaker 1: because um we got remember we've got four weekly music papers. Um, 930 00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:22,719 Speaker 1: and during the strike everybody was talking about it. It 931 00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:28,120 Speaker 1: was not something you could avoid. So um, young people 932 00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:31,640 Speaker 1: were galvanized by opposition to Thatcher in the way they've 933 00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:34,200 Speaker 1: been galvanized by a position to Trump and opposition to Brexit. 934 00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:38,160 Speaker 1: So to be a young person and to be making 935 00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:42,600 Speaker 1: culture for young people, you know, I wasn't alone in 936 00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:45,000 Speaker 1: the way arms. Were you political before this or just 937 00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:47,680 Speaker 1: this issue struck you in such a way? I was. 938 00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:50,800 Speaker 1: I was personally political, Bob. You know, my my politics 939 00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:54,120 Speaker 1: were broadly you know, anti racist. Um, I'll be honest. 940 00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:58,160 Speaker 1: Before the minor strike, I didn't have much grasp of sexism. 941 00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:01,960 Speaker 1: It was that experience to introduced me to to those issues. 942 00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:05,919 Speaker 1: But I've been politicized by Rock against racism, so that's 943 00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:10,719 Speaker 1: where my politics kind of came from. Um. But the 944 00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:13,840 Speaker 1: ideological politics so I started. The minor strike caused me 945 00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:16,880 Speaker 1: to defined myself as a socialist rather than just someone 946 00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:19,279 Speaker 1: who was in favor of good things. I started trying to, 947 00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:21,680 Speaker 1: you know, bring that in. For a lot of us, 948 00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:25,080 Speaker 1: it was it was definitive. Okay, We're in a you know, 949 00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:28,520 Speaker 1: very tumultuous globe at this point in time. There's been 950 00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:31,440 Speaker 1: a lot of rightward movement, although recently a little bit 951 00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:34,120 Speaker 1: of a pushback to left. Do you have hope for 952 00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:37,480 Speaker 1: society at large. Yeah, of course, as I say, I 953 00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:40,040 Speaker 1: describe myself as a socialist, And unless you can see 954 00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:42,239 Speaker 1: that the glass is half full, you can't really be 955 00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:44,360 Speaker 1: a socialist because you have to believe that if the 956 00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:47,120 Speaker 1: majority of people have to say that the things will 957 00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:49,000 Speaker 1: work for the better, you've gotta be able to wake 958 00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:53,440 Speaker 1: up in the morning and think that broadly speaking, humanity 959 00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:59,360 Speaker 1: leans towards a much more compassionate society. Um. And I 960 00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:01,200 Speaker 1: think we live in time with even a time when 961 00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:04,920 Speaker 1: there's like a war on empathy coming down from on high. 962 00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:09,040 Speaker 1: You know, anyone who expresses any sort of you know, 963 00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:14,360 Speaker 1: respect for people outside their own racial or cultural or 964 00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:17,000 Speaker 1: ethnic group is sort of dismissed as virtue signaling or 965 00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:19,960 Speaker 1: political correctness. These people who use those terms of trying 966 00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:25,960 Speaker 1: to police the the limits of social change by their 967 00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:28,120 Speaker 1: dismissive language, and we have to, you know, we have 968 00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:29,759 Speaker 1: to take them on as best we can. Well, war 969 00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:32,920 Speaker 1: on empathy, that's a good, uh way to put it. So, 970 00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:36,120 Speaker 1: what is really going on with Brexits prior to this 971 00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:39,960 Speaker 1: being published? I am sure there'll be other movement, but 972 00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:44,640 Speaker 1: give us the insight into how this happened. Braxit is 973 00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:51,120 Speaker 1: a manifestation of the inability of the neoliberal economic model 974 00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:56,359 Speaker 1: to deal with change. And it's not isolated. I think 975 00:51:56,400 --> 00:52:02,640 Speaker 1: the election here in the United States America in UH 976 00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:06,200 Speaker 1: was also the election of Donald Trump was also a 977 00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:12,000 Speaker 1: result of the other candidate, Hillary Clinton, being unable to 978 00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:15,880 Speaker 1: offer any real change, economic change that will help ordinary 979 00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:18,680 Speaker 1: working people. She couldn't do that. She was just offering 980 00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:24,440 Speaker 1: more the same people. If you've um not benefit from 981 00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:28,840 Speaker 1: the economic model, then then the the impulse to protect 982 00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:32,320 Speaker 1: that econonomic model by voting to remain in the European Union, 983 00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:35,760 Speaker 1: forget it. You know, you've made my life a chaos. 984 00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:37,319 Speaker 1: I'm gonna make your life chaos now. And I think 985 00:52:37,360 --> 00:52:40,120 Speaker 1: that's the lesson from Trump and Brexit is that unless 986 00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:45,319 Speaker 1: ordinary people are offered meaningful change, they are willing to 987 00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:48,239 Speaker 1: vote for the kind of you know, damn the lot 988 00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:51,080 Speaker 1: of u chaos that we see with Brexit and with Trump. Okay, 989 00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:53,600 Speaker 1: so a noo that the election of the Brexit electors 990 00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:57,880 Speaker 1: essentially three years old. Um, there's been a lot of 991 00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:01,120 Speaker 1: talk about people who just in a lot of working 992 00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:04,160 Speaker 1: class people who literally voted against their interests because there 993 00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:09,920 Speaker 1: were plants in their societies that were funded by European Union. Um, 994 00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:13,960 Speaker 1: they talk about a nationalism. The people missed a national 995 00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:18,120 Speaker 1: identity leading in the UK. So what degree is that 996 00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:21,799 Speaker 1: a well, nationally you know, I'm a socialist and as 997 00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:24,360 Speaker 1: a result that, Bob, I know, there are many different 998 00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:26,840 Speaker 1: types of socialism. It's not just one type. You know, 999 00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:29,200 Speaker 1: you have democratic socialisty in the United States of America, 1000 00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:32,520 Speaker 1: the social democracy. It's the same with nationalism. You know, 1001 00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:34,759 Speaker 1: in my country we have the British National Party you 1002 00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:36,799 Speaker 1: are led by a man who denies the veracity of 1003 00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:39,680 Speaker 1: the Holocaust, and the Scottish National Party, who are more 1004 00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:41,799 Speaker 1: left wing than the Democrats and the Labor Party. So 1005 00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:46,120 Speaker 1: you know, nationalism is not always a negative form civic nationalism, 1006 00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:48,160 Speaker 1: loving your country and wanting it to be better. It's 1007 00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:51,959 Speaker 1: not always negative. But what's going on I think, both 1008 00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:56,480 Speaker 1: with Trump and with Brexit is an attempt to return 1009 00:53:56,600 --> 00:54:01,120 Speaker 1: to the way things were before women, people of color 1010 00:54:01,239 --> 00:54:04,920 Speaker 1: and the lgbt q I community made it in road. 1011 00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:07,239 Speaker 1: How much of it is that and how much of 1012 00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:10,919 Speaker 1: it is what you steated earlier, the lack of economic opportunity. 1013 00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:14,759 Speaker 1: Well that the one is a reaction to the other. 1014 00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:17,600 Speaker 1: You know, the two big slogans from Trump and Brexit 1015 00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:22,239 Speaker 1: were make America great again and take back control. It's 1016 00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:24,920 Speaker 1: not like a moving forward idea where we're all going 1017 00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:26,719 Speaker 1: to move together. We're going to go back to our 1018 00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:30,839 Speaker 1: things were before all these upty people got their their 1019 00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:35,640 Speaker 1: place in society. It's a it's a you know, almost 1020 00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:40,919 Speaker 1: a nostalgia trip. And in my country it's underscored with 1021 00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:49,879 Speaker 1: imperial nostalgia, and I fear in your country it's it's um, 1022 00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:52,799 Speaker 1: it's run through with the nostalgia for Jim Crow. I'm 1023 00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:56,640 Speaker 1: sorry to say. Um. Now you can you can put 1024 00:54:56,719 --> 00:54:58,800 Speaker 1: that down to nationalism if you like. There's a nationalist 1025 00:54:58,840 --> 00:55:04,000 Speaker 1: element in there. But nationalism isn't always negative. But what 1026 00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:09,040 Speaker 1: is clearly is negative is people who don't feel that 1027 00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:12,640 Speaker 1: they have a place in society anymore. You know, some 1028 00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:16,680 Speaker 1: of the Brexit people say that they don't feel that 1029 00:55:16,719 --> 00:55:18,960 Speaker 1: Britain is their country anymore. Now I have some empathy 1030 00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:21,080 Speaker 1: for that because I felt that way during Attache years. 1031 00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:25,279 Speaker 1: So I'm not willing to dismiss them all as being racists. 1032 00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:28,600 Speaker 1: You know, not not everyone who voted for Breakfast is 1033 00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:31,840 Speaker 1: a racist, but every race is definitely voted Breakfast. But 1034 00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:34,200 Speaker 1: the point being. You know, these are people who are 1035 00:55:35,239 --> 00:55:38,000 Speaker 1: don't feel their voices heard anymore, and Brexit was their 1036 00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:40,760 Speaker 1: opportunity to be heard. And I think there's an element 1037 00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:42,680 Speaker 1: of that within the within the Trump vote as well. 1038 00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:45,440 Speaker 1: And the question then becomes, how do we accommodate those people? Okay, 1039 00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:47,640 Speaker 1: so how do we? Well? I think we have to 1040 00:55:47,680 --> 00:55:49,799 Speaker 1: give them the thing that seems to be lacking to 1041 00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:52,920 Speaker 1: me in their lives and listen to what they say 1042 00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:57,400 Speaker 1: is a sense of some agency over their their environment. 1043 00:55:58,120 --> 00:55:59,960 Speaker 1: And one of the reasons for that, I think if 1044 00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:02,759 Speaker 1: the prime reason for that, I think is that the 1045 00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:06,680 Speaker 1: lack of accountability in a voting system in your country 1046 00:56:06,680 --> 00:56:11,760 Speaker 1: and my country that doesn't um make everyone's vote count. 1047 00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:15,320 Speaker 1: If we lived in countries that add proportional voting systems 1048 00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:19,279 Speaker 1: where every vote results and representation, we might be able 1049 00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:21,399 Speaker 1: to get to grips with some of these issues. I mean, 1050 00:56:21,600 --> 00:56:24,640 Speaker 1: what's been happening just recently in my country with members 1051 00:56:24,640 --> 00:56:28,520 Speaker 1: of parliament splitting from the two main parties is the 1052 00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:31,840 Speaker 1: stress being put on a system that is unable to 1053 00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:36,480 Speaker 1: accommodate meaningful change. Let's go back just for a second. 1054 00:56:37,239 --> 00:56:42,040 Speaker 1: You go a little deeper. Proportional voting meaning proportional voting, 1055 00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:49,000 Speaker 1: meaning that that the members of Congress will proportionally reflect 1056 00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:54,920 Speaker 1: the number of votes counted there in their election or 1057 00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:58,880 Speaker 1: in their viewpoints expressed in their in their election, in 1058 00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:01,799 Speaker 1: the number of votes Canada. In my country, we have 1059 00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:04,359 Speaker 1: a system called first pass the post. So if there's 1060 00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:06,640 Speaker 1: there's three of us, Let's say there's three of us 1061 00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:09,919 Speaker 1: in the election, and I get the most votes, I win, 1062 00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:13,160 Speaker 1: even if I don't get the majority. You know, if 1063 00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:16,840 Speaker 1: I get um Let's say I get and the two 1064 00:57:16,880 --> 00:57:21,240 Speaker 1: other candidates get each I win, and what apps to 1065 00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:23,280 Speaker 1: the six of the votes that are against me? They 1066 00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:26,160 Speaker 1: go in the trash. That's you know, you keep doing 1067 00:57:26,160 --> 00:57:28,520 Speaker 1: that for twenty thirty years. Those people who going in 1068 00:57:28,520 --> 00:57:30,400 Speaker 1: the trash of your time, they're going to get angry. 1069 00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:33,240 Speaker 1: Where I live in a rural constituency, we call them 1070 00:57:33,240 --> 00:57:37,360 Speaker 1: out parliamentary constituencies. I live in a rural community where 1071 00:57:37,400 --> 00:57:44,160 Speaker 1: the Conservative Party have been the MP since six and 1072 00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:46,320 Speaker 1: where I live in East London, where I grew up. Rather, 1073 00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:49,800 Speaker 1: Labor has been the member of Parliament there since the 1074 00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:52,520 Speaker 1: borough was created when my father was a child in nine. 1075 00:57:53,560 --> 00:57:56,480 Speaker 1: So I mean I'm a Labor supporter but I reckon 1076 00:57:56,880 --> 00:57:59,600 Speaker 1: just talking about the constituency you live in now. Is 1077 00:57:59,640 --> 00:58:02,760 Speaker 1: there any opportunity for labor or a third party that 1078 00:58:02,840 --> 00:58:06,480 Speaker 1: that second party? Even previous elections, I've had to campaign 1079 00:58:06,520 --> 00:58:08,720 Speaker 1: for the only party that the party that comes second, 1080 00:58:08,880 --> 00:58:11,880 Speaker 1: even though I don't support them, I've had to encourage 1081 00:58:11,880 --> 00:58:13,760 Speaker 1: people to vote for them in order to defeat the 1082 00:58:13,800 --> 00:58:15,800 Speaker 1: Tories and to stop the Tories winning at westminth said 1083 00:58:15,840 --> 00:58:18,840 Speaker 1: didn't work. UM, But in a fair voting is a 1084 00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:23,680 Speaker 1: system system. Our votes will be reflected. You know, there 1085 00:58:23,680 --> 00:58:25,880 Speaker 1: will be a threshold. Parties that got more than five 1086 00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:28,560 Speaker 1: percent would get some kind of representation. They do have it. 1087 00:58:28,600 --> 00:58:32,840 Speaker 1: I mean most European societies have it. It's not a 1088 00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:36,520 Speaker 1: UM solve all your problems, but it does ensure that 1089 00:58:36,560 --> 00:58:40,200 Speaker 1: everyone's votes get Okay, that's that's talking about government. What 1090 00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:43,200 Speaker 1: about economics in the fact with you know a lot 1091 00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:47,120 Speaker 1: of the economy, certainly in america's driven by technology, and 1092 00:58:47,160 --> 00:58:51,040 Speaker 1: there aren't enough jobs, never mind well paying jobs for people. 1093 00:58:52,120 --> 00:58:56,919 Speaker 1: How do we address that? Really easy but great new deal? 1094 00:58:57,960 --> 00:59:00,440 Speaker 1: You know, the New Deal that Frank Loos got used 1095 00:59:00,440 --> 00:59:04,320 Speaker 1: in the nineties thirties to re re engage American workers 1096 00:59:05,280 --> 00:59:08,680 Speaker 1: greening the American economy would have the same job because 1097 00:59:08,680 --> 00:59:12,320 Speaker 1: although yes, technology will be important, you will physically have 1098 00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:16,720 Speaker 1: to change the way that you know, every house is insulated. 1099 00:59:17,120 --> 00:59:19,640 Speaker 1: You will physically have to change the way that that 1100 00:59:20,320 --> 00:59:23,120 Speaker 1: automobiles work. You will physically have to change the way 1101 00:59:23,160 --> 00:59:25,520 Speaker 1: power is generated. These are all labor intensies, right, But 1102 00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:29,480 Speaker 1: those would cause employment for a period of time, just 1103 00:59:29,600 --> 00:59:34,000 Speaker 1: like the Alaskan oil rush of the seventies. But it 1104 00:59:34,080 --> 00:59:38,200 Speaker 1: does not speak to the billionaires who ultimately control these 1105 00:59:38,280 --> 00:59:41,760 Speaker 1: large corporations and wield their power to the detriment of 1106 00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:43,840 Speaker 1: the working class. In middle class. Well, we're back to 1107 00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:47,800 Speaker 1: the A word again, but accountability. And I think this actually, 1108 00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:52,360 Speaker 1: I've just been proof reading a polemical pamphlet. I've written 1109 00:59:52,760 --> 00:59:57,640 Speaker 1: fifteen word pamphlet about accountability. Because I believe very very 1110 00:59:57,640 --> 00:59:59,760 Speaker 1: strongly that it's going to be published later this year. 1111 00:59:59,800 --> 01:00:03,600 Speaker 1: I'll be leave very very strongly that um our obsession 1112 01:00:03,680 --> 01:00:08,120 Speaker 1: with free speech as the definition of freedom is to 1113 01:00:08,200 --> 01:00:12,200 Speaker 1: the detriment of other dimensions of freedom that are equally important. 1114 01:00:12,200 --> 01:00:14,760 Speaker 1: And they are equality the right of everybody to express 1115 01:00:14,760 --> 01:00:19,320 Speaker 1: their opinion. More importantly, though, accountability, because it's accountability that 1116 01:00:19,480 --> 01:00:23,800 Speaker 1: gives the individual agency over those corporations that you're talking about. 1117 01:00:24,320 --> 01:00:26,920 Speaker 1: So I'm in my in my book, I'm arguing that 1118 01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:31,040 Speaker 1: equality and accountability to give given equal prominence and equal 1119 01:00:31,080 --> 01:00:33,040 Speaker 1: respect that we give to First, let's say, you know, 1120 01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:36,840 Speaker 1: there are there are certainly bad actors in corporate world, 1121 01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:40,680 Speaker 1: but there is a spectrum. So for those people who 1122 01:00:40,760 --> 01:00:43,760 Speaker 1: are paying those corporations that are paying their taxes but 1123 01:00:43,960 --> 01:00:48,400 Speaker 1: still eliminating jobs, what's the accountability there. Well, the accountability 1124 01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:50,800 Speaker 1: there is that the corporations have to be responsible so 1125 01:00:50,800 --> 01:00:53,800 Speaker 1: that the profits, some of the profits that they have 1126 01:00:53,800 --> 01:00:56,000 Speaker 1: have to go into the communities where they work to 1127 01:00:56,080 --> 01:01:01,120 Speaker 1: create space and create a um a sustainable model of 1128 01:01:01,160 --> 01:01:04,200 Speaker 1: growth that helps those communities in some way. If everyone, 1129 01:01:04,240 --> 01:01:06,040 Speaker 1: you know, maybe we go into a four day working 1130 01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:09,120 Speaker 1: week or something like that. Because the real big problem 1131 01:01:09,320 --> 01:01:12,560 Speaker 1: is that the globalization of the economy has made it 1132 01:01:12,600 --> 01:01:16,720 Speaker 1: possible for for um an extractive model of capitalism that 1133 01:01:16,760 --> 01:01:19,320 Speaker 1: allows a corporation to make its money in one country 1134 01:01:19,560 --> 01:01:22,360 Speaker 1: and then pay taxes somewhere else that if they pay them, 1135 01:01:22,560 --> 01:01:25,000 Speaker 1: if they pay them at all, And unfortunately, the only 1136 01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:26,600 Speaker 1: way to deal with that is to have some kind 1137 01:01:26,640 --> 01:01:31,400 Speaker 1: of global deal and again, Unfortunately, voters tend to be 1138 01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:34,720 Speaker 1: shying away from that kind of international collective action that 1139 01:01:35,120 --> 01:01:38,560 Speaker 1: the you know, globalization is here to stay. It's just 1140 01:01:38,600 --> 01:01:40,720 Speaker 1: like an America. No one wants to be four thousand 1141 01:01:40,800 --> 01:01:43,720 Speaker 1: dollars for a flat screen if it was manufacturing America. 1142 01:01:44,520 --> 01:01:48,480 Speaker 1: But there hasn't been a good trickled down or understanding 1143 01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:51,280 Speaker 1: for those people left behind. The trickle down don't really matter, 1144 01:01:51,320 --> 01:01:55,800 Speaker 1: don't really work. But the economy works not by entrepreneurs 1145 01:01:55,840 --> 01:01:58,560 Speaker 1: making loads of money and trickling it down. The economy 1146 01:01:58,600 --> 01:02:01,720 Speaker 1: works by you and I am every other average Joe 1147 01:02:01,720 --> 01:02:04,000 Speaker 1: and you will going out every day and buying stuff. 1148 01:02:04,360 --> 01:02:06,720 Speaker 1: That's how the of course, that's what the New Deal 1149 01:02:06,760 --> 01:02:09,120 Speaker 1: was about. The New Deal was about putting money into 1150 01:02:09,120 --> 01:02:11,400 Speaker 1: the pockets of ordinary American workers that they could buy 1151 01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:14,280 Speaker 1: automobiles in America, so they could buy fridges, so they 1152 01:02:14,280 --> 01:02:16,360 Speaker 1: could buy houses. As you don't if you don't have 1153 01:02:16,440 --> 01:02:19,800 Speaker 1: these people at the bottom spending their money, that's when 1154 01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:21,960 Speaker 1: the economy. That's one of the things that bothers me. 1155 01:02:22,040 --> 01:02:24,480 Speaker 1: You have all these corporate titans, it's all based on 1156 01:02:24,560 --> 01:02:27,280 Speaker 1: consumer spending that they don't make the money in the 1157 01:02:27,360 --> 01:02:29,520 Speaker 1: vat you know, so The question is, then, how do 1158 01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:32,160 Speaker 1: you get that model to be sustainable? How do you 1159 01:02:32,160 --> 01:02:35,560 Speaker 1: get it to be more accountable? And I believe you 1160 01:02:35,640 --> 01:02:39,440 Speaker 1: do that by giving the consumer, the individual, greater agency 1161 01:02:39,800 --> 01:02:44,400 Speaker 1: over the process. So that involves a form of regulatory democracy, 1162 01:02:44,800 --> 01:02:48,520 Speaker 1: more regulations, not less regular in America, and I agree 1163 01:02:48,560 --> 01:02:53,120 Speaker 1: with you wholly. Uh. The right wing has done a 1164 01:02:53,480 --> 01:02:57,960 Speaker 1: excellent job of demonizing the word regulation. Well, of course, 1165 01:02:58,040 --> 01:03:00,240 Speaker 1: no one wants to live in a building the collapse is, 1166 01:03:00,800 --> 01:03:03,200 Speaker 1: it's setera. But you know, maybe there's a change now, 1167 01:03:03,280 --> 01:03:05,920 Speaker 1: just like when the anti Pelosi they demonized her and 1168 01:03:05,960 --> 01:03:18,320 Speaker 1: they you know, turned one e. Brexit, the hard Brexit 1169 01:03:18,440 --> 01:03:23,320 Speaker 1: is what march. I mean, that's driven by the regulations. 1170 01:03:23,320 --> 01:03:26,160 Speaker 1: We'll just add driven by the people behind that were 1171 01:03:26,160 --> 01:03:29,960 Speaker 1: pushing hardest for exactly those kind of people, extractive capitalists 1172 01:03:30,080 --> 01:03:31,840 Speaker 1: who are trying to get out the European UNI. Because 1173 01:03:31,840 --> 01:03:33,920 Speaker 1: the European Union is now starting to pass laws which 1174 01:03:33,960 --> 01:03:37,640 Speaker 1: you'll know about copyright and such issues that have international 1175 01:03:38,080 --> 01:03:42,800 Speaker 1: implications for corporations, not just manufacturing corporations, but people on 1176 01:03:42,840 --> 01:03:47,640 Speaker 1: Facebook and Google. Okay, so how do you predict this 1177 01:03:47,680 --> 01:03:55,040 Speaker 1: will play out? Well, Brexit, Bob, mate, it's like trying 1178 01:03:55,040 --> 01:03:56,680 Speaker 1: to say who's going to win the World Series in 1179 01:03:56,720 --> 01:04:00,320 Speaker 1: ten years time. It's everything you say you think we'll happen, 1180 01:04:00,600 --> 01:04:04,440 Speaker 1: doesn't happen, or something weirder happens. It's really what Brexit 1181 01:04:04,480 --> 01:04:08,080 Speaker 1: has done is totally fractured the idea of left right 1182 01:04:08,120 --> 01:04:13,160 Speaker 1: politics completely, so you can't predict anymore the way people 1183 01:04:13,160 --> 01:04:16,360 Speaker 1: are going to respond to two issues in the way 1184 01:04:16,400 --> 01:04:21,080 Speaker 1: that you could before. Brexit is like a faultline that 1185 01:04:21,240 --> 01:04:26,480 Speaker 1: runs through our politics, and it's in some ways it's 1186 01:04:26,480 --> 01:04:28,520 Speaker 1: a bit it's a it's a bit like Trumpism in 1187 01:04:28,560 --> 01:04:30,920 Speaker 1: that way. You know, it's split families and it's split 1188 01:04:32,040 --> 01:04:33,480 Speaker 1: I mean, I know people who don't talk to their 1189 01:04:33,520 --> 01:04:38,760 Speaker 1: parents anymore because their parents voted Brexit. As it's impossible 1190 01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:41,680 Speaker 1: to protect likely what is likely to happen. I think 1191 01:04:41,720 --> 01:04:44,840 Speaker 1: it's likely that we the British government, will have to 1192 01:04:44,880 --> 01:04:47,800 Speaker 1: ask the European Union to postpone kick the bottle down 1193 01:04:47,840 --> 01:04:51,120 Speaker 1: the the field. Yeah, there's a there's a I think 1194 01:04:51,160 --> 01:04:54,240 Speaker 1: called Article fifty, which is the process that we're in 1195 01:04:54,320 --> 01:04:58,640 Speaker 1: at the moment that could be extended. What I would 1196 01:04:58,760 --> 01:05:04,800 Speaker 1: like to see is um an independent review of it. 1197 01:05:05,040 --> 01:05:06,440 Speaker 1: A lot of people at home want there to be 1198 01:05:06,440 --> 01:05:10,600 Speaker 1: a referendum, another referendum. The referendum was the most divisive 1199 01:05:10,680 --> 01:05:14,760 Speaker 1: day in British post war history, the most divisive day. 1200 01:05:14,760 --> 01:05:16,920 Speaker 1: And you want to do it again, come on, you 1201 01:05:16,960 --> 01:05:20,000 Speaker 1: know it would just be it makes winners and losers. 1202 01:05:20,040 --> 01:05:24,040 Speaker 1: What we need is a consensus. So um, the Irish 1203 01:05:24,240 --> 01:05:31,120 Speaker 1: recently convened a a people's Forum to decide the issue 1204 01:05:31,120 --> 01:05:37,000 Speaker 1: of abortion. They put people, um, ordinary citizens elected like 1205 01:05:37,040 --> 01:05:39,640 Speaker 1: a jury. I think there was a hundred of them, 1206 01:05:39,680 --> 01:05:43,280 Speaker 1: and they took evidence from experts. No politicians were allowed 1207 01:05:43,280 --> 01:05:47,040 Speaker 1: talked and I took evidence from experts and submissions from 1208 01:05:47,080 --> 01:05:53,120 Speaker 1: the general public. They deliberated for months in a hotel 1209 01:05:53,160 --> 01:05:57,160 Speaker 1: every weekend. It was all broadcasts online so people could 1210 01:05:57,160 --> 01:06:01,000 Speaker 1: see the deliberations and they came up with recommendations which 1211 01:06:01,080 --> 01:06:04,480 Speaker 1: the Irish government then ratified and put to a vote. 1212 01:06:04,720 --> 01:06:06,439 Speaker 1: And the vote of the Irish people was the same 1213 01:06:06,480 --> 01:06:09,720 Speaker 1: as the vote of the public form, which is more 1214 01:06:09,800 --> 01:06:15,400 Speaker 1: or less sixty five in favor of abortion and against. 1215 01:06:15,440 --> 01:06:19,240 Speaker 1: Now what that did was it involved everybody in the 1216 01:06:19,240 --> 01:06:21,840 Speaker 1: country in a debate. It went on for a period 1217 01:06:21,920 --> 01:06:26,120 Speaker 1: of time and the conclusion was consensual. Everybody could say 1218 01:06:26,160 --> 01:06:29,600 Speaker 1: that everybody's voice had been heard. Whereas the referendum on 1219 01:06:29,600 --> 01:06:34,280 Speaker 1: one day, on on one vote and one outcome has 1220 01:06:35,000 --> 01:06:39,680 Speaker 1: not resolved an issue that has divided British politics, the 1221 01:06:39,760 --> 01:06:44,200 Speaker 1: issue of all the misinformation, the original Brexit vote. How 1222 01:06:44,200 --> 01:06:47,600 Speaker 1: do we would this process eliminate that? Yes, because because 1223 01:06:47,720 --> 01:06:51,840 Speaker 1: we would then have to put those questions to the test. 1224 01:06:52,120 --> 01:06:55,360 Speaker 1: Before Brexit was an abstract. Now this close we can 1225 01:06:55,400 --> 01:06:57,600 Speaker 1: starting to see the lie of the land. So yeah, 1226 01:06:57,920 --> 01:07:00,960 Speaker 1: I mean, the fake news thing is also part of 1227 01:07:01,000 --> 01:07:04,520 Speaker 1: the accountability agenda, you know, the loss of accountability anymore. 1228 01:07:04,560 --> 01:07:11,720 Speaker 1: I mean, um, And it's not just the that the 1229 01:07:11,760 --> 01:07:16,480 Speaker 1: neoliberals don't want to accept facts. They don't want to 1230 01:07:16,520 --> 01:07:19,760 Speaker 1: accept being challenged. One of my real problems with the 1231 01:07:20,640 --> 01:07:24,880 Speaker 1: so called intellectual dark Web, these freedom of speech warriors, 1232 01:07:26,120 --> 01:07:29,200 Speaker 1: is that they simply will not countenance a challenge. It's 1233 01:07:29,240 --> 01:07:31,720 Speaker 1: not free speech they want, it's free reign. They want 1234 01:07:31,760 --> 01:07:33,960 Speaker 1: to be able to say whatever they want and have 1235 01:07:34,160 --> 01:07:36,720 Speaker 1: no comeback. And that's the difference, and this is the 1236 01:07:36,800 --> 01:07:42,600 Speaker 1: key difference between liberty and freedom. Liberty the idea that 1237 01:07:42,640 --> 01:07:44,920 Speaker 1: you can say whatever you want to whoever you want, 1238 01:07:45,000 --> 01:07:49,040 Speaker 1: whenever you want, and and you know, not be held 1239 01:07:49,040 --> 01:07:52,920 Speaker 1: accountable for it. If that was the definition of freedom alone, 1240 01:07:53,640 --> 01:07:57,680 Speaker 1: then your president will be the paragon of freedom because 1241 01:07:57,680 --> 01:07:59,960 Speaker 1: that's exactly what he does. But it's not that they're 1242 01:08:00,000 --> 01:08:02,360 Speaker 1: finition of freedom. It's actually what he's doing is an 1243 01:08:02,400 --> 01:08:07,360 Speaker 1: abuse of his freedom. He's he's um, you know, using 1244 01:08:07,400 --> 01:08:11,080 Speaker 1: his privilege in order to make those points. And you 1245 01:08:11,120 --> 01:08:15,479 Speaker 1: need equality, everybody's right to express their point of view. 1246 01:08:16,000 --> 01:08:18,280 Speaker 1: And then on top of that, you need accountability, the 1247 01:08:18,360 --> 01:08:21,240 Speaker 1: ability you know that your ability as an individual to 1248 01:08:21,360 --> 01:08:24,960 Speaker 1: hold people to account, but also your willingness to be 1249 01:08:25,000 --> 01:08:29,160 Speaker 1: accountable yourself. It's reciprocal as well as empowering, and these 1250 01:08:29,200 --> 01:08:30,800 Speaker 1: things are lacking. This is the case I'm trying to 1251 01:08:30,840 --> 01:08:33,439 Speaker 1: make in this uh this pamphlet, the Three Dimensions of Freedom. 1252 01:08:33,600 --> 01:08:37,040 Speaker 1: Just to be clear. So you're against this political correctness, 1253 01:08:37,800 --> 01:08:40,160 Speaker 1: I don't think. I don't believe political quickness exists, Bob. 1254 01:08:40,920 --> 01:08:45,000 Speaker 1: It doesn't exist. You know, it's it's a projection of 1255 01:08:45,040 --> 01:08:48,640 Speaker 1: the powerless or powerlessness of people. You know, if you 1256 01:08:48,640 --> 01:08:51,759 Speaker 1: look at the people who are are most angry about 1257 01:08:53,320 --> 01:08:56,280 Speaker 1: political correctness, they tend to be academics. And what they're 1258 01:08:58,000 --> 01:09:02,920 Speaker 1: pushing back against is people bringing in different metrics with 1259 01:09:02,960 --> 01:09:06,960 Speaker 1: which to deal with subjects. I think what's the academics 1260 01:09:06,960 --> 01:09:10,920 Speaker 1: are afraid of is that the um the standards that 1261 01:09:11,000 --> 01:09:14,960 Speaker 1: they were raised with that have allowed them access to 1262 01:09:15,479 --> 01:09:18,960 Speaker 1: uh places of privilege. If the metrics are changed, they 1263 01:09:19,000 --> 01:09:21,240 Speaker 1: will no longer be able to just walk through those 1264 01:09:21,280 --> 01:09:22,840 Speaker 1: doors that the rest of us are kept out of. 1265 01:09:22,920 --> 01:09:26,240 Speaker 1: They are defending their own privilege. You know, there is 1266 01:09:26,240 --> 01:09:28,959 Speaker 1: no such thing as political correctness, and yet your president 1267 01:09:29,040 --> 01:09:33,600 Speaker 1: was elected after saying that he thought political correctness was 1268 01:09:33,680 --> 01:09:37,920 Speaker 1: the thing that was the biggest thing that threatened America today. Okay, 1269 01:09:38,000 --> 01:09:39,760 Speaker 1: let's switch in gears a little bit. Where does this 1270 01:09:39,840 --> 01:09:43,400 Speaker 1: leave you, Billy Bragg? At least me with on a 1271 01:09:43,560 --> 01:09:45,840 Speaker 1: with a platform. That's what this job has always given me, 1272 01:09:45,880 --> 01:09:47,880 Speaker 1: a platform in a bottom line. But I think I'm 1273 01:09:47,920 --> 01:09:51,799 Speaker 1: a communicator. So you're sixty one in a change universe, 1274 01:09:51,880 --> 01:09:55,640 Speaker 1: and when you started primarily because technology means of communication, 1275 01:09:56,200 --> 01:09:59,439 Speaker 1: what are you envision going forward the twenty or thirty years? 1276 01:09:59,439 --> 01:10:04,040 Speaker 1: Hopefully you're left owner's playing it. Let's hope. UM, Well, 1277 01:10:04,080 --> 01:10:07,559 Speaker 1: I'm I'm hoping that. Um. This is personally for your career, 1278 01:10:07,680 --> 01:10:11,160 Speaker 1: personally for my career. If I carried on doing what 1279 01:10:11,200 --> 01:10:12,840 Speaker 1: I'm doing now, which is more or less what I 1280 01:10:12,880 --> 01:10:15,519 Speaker 1: was doing in the twentieth century, I'll be happy. I mean, 1281 01:10:15,520 --> 01:10:17,879 Speaker 1: I'm feel immensely privileged, Bob. I've been coming to America 1282 01:10:18,000 --> 01:10:21,920 Speaker 1: for thirty five years, and people are still interested in 1283 01:10:21,960 --> 01:10:23,800 Speaker 1: what I'm doing to the extent I've sold free units 1284 01:10:23,840 --> 01:10:26,160 Speaker 1: out at the Troubador, and I've got other shows like 1285 01:10:26,240 --> 01:10:28,920 Speaker 1: this lined up, you know. And that's down to a 1286 01:10:29,040 --> 01:10:32,000 Speaker 1: number of things. You know. My management gave me good 1287 01:10:32,000 --> 01:10:36,519 Speaker 1: advice and I took it. My agent, Steve Martin has 1288 01:10:36,560 --> 01:10:38,559 Speaker 1: been with me all the time, and you know, he's 1289 01:10:38,600 --> 01:10:40,920 Speaker 1: been He has a great vision for what I try 1290 01:10:40,960 --> 01:10:46,800 Speaker 1: and do, and and my sort of urge to try 1291 01:10:46,840 --> 01:10:48,680 Speaker 1: and communicate, try and make sense of the way the 1292 01:10:48,720 --> 01:10:53,280 Speaker 1: world is um as still motivates me. You know. It's 1293 01:10:53,640 --> 01:10:57,800 Speaker 1: it's just I think, what what what's different now is 1294 01:10:57,840 --> 01:11:00,479 Speaker 1: that there are other ways, that are other platforms. So 1295 01:11:00,600 --> 01:11:03,320 Speaker 1: to sit down and write a book, it kind of 1296 01:11:03,360 --> 01:11:07,680 Speaker 1: gets you know, sort of after thirty five years, you 1297 01:11:07,760 --> 01:11:10,080 Speaker 1: need a break from to and around in a van. 1298 01:11:10,280 --> 01:11:12,360 Speaker 1: That's why I went on the Kayama Cruise. As much 1299 01:11:12,360 --> 01:11:15,679 Speaker 1: as anything, you know, if five years driving around America 1300 01:11:15,720 --> 01:11:19,800 Speaker 1: and a people carry on, I'm ready for okay, but 1301 01:11:19,960 --> 01:11:23,080 Speaker 1: also getting your message out in a tower of babel 1302 01:11:23,240 --> 01:11:26,599 Speaker 1: society where it's harder for any voice to be heard. 1303 01:11:27,240 --> 01:11:30,520 Speaker 1: Does that uh? Is that a weed on your shoulders? 1304 01:11:30,560 --> 01:11:33,679 Speaker 1: Not mine? No, because unfortunately I got an audience together 1305 01:11:33,760 --> 01:11:36,880 Speaker 1: in the in the days of college radio, when the 1306 01:11:37,000 --> 01:11:40,559 Speaker 1: music industry was stratified, there were people at the top 1307 01:11:40,600 --> 01:11:43,400 Speaker 1: who were making huge amounts of money playing stadiums. There 1308 01:11:43,400 --> 01:11:45,599 Speaker 1: are people at the bottom who were going to open mics. 1309 01:11:45,840 --> 01:11:47,240 Speaker 1: A lot of us were kind of in the middle, 1310 01:11:47,880 --> 01:11:50,080 Speaker 1: you know, making a living, never gonna trouble the top 1311 01:11:50,120 --> 01:11:51,840 Speaker 1: of the child and never going to play the stadiums, 1312 01:11:51,880 --> 01:11:54,880 Speaker 1: but could go out there and play the circuit and follow. 1313 01:11:54,920 --> 01:11:57,720 Speaker 1: You know, it's a very twentieth century thing. I have 1314 01:11:57,720 --> 01:12:00,000 Speaker 1: a son who's in a band now it's twenty five 1315 01:12:00,080 --> 01:12:03,320 Speaker 1: years old. There is no middle ground anymore. You're either 1316 01:12:04,040 --> 01:12:07,960 Speaker 1: busted through and gone gangbusters, or you're playing for a 1317 01:12:08,040 --> 01:12:13,160 Speaker 1: pittance somewhere. That sustainable middle middle of the road where 1318 01:12:13,280 --> 01:12:15,760 Speaker 1: record label lets you make free albums of seatley work out. 1319 01:12:16,280 --> 01:12:19,400 Speaker 1: That model is absolutely shot. And I'm sorry about that 1320 01:12:19,479 --> 01:12:23,960 Speaker 1: because although I don't necessary want there to be another 1321 01:12:24,240 --> 01:12:27,080 Speaker 1: clash or another punk rock. I just wish every night 1322 01:12:27,160 --> 01:12:28,960 Speaker 1: in your could feel like I felt when I saw 1323 01:12:29,040 --> 01:12:31,000 Speaker 1: the Clash and then go out and be able to 1324 01:12:31,040 --> 01:12:34,559 Speaker 1: make a living on their own creativity. That's what's missing. 1325 01:12:35,000 --> 01:12:37,559 Speaker 1: You know. All of the new pop stars that are 1326 01:12:37,560 --> 01:12:41,160 Speaker 1: coming through in the UK tend to have been privately educated, 1327 01:12:41,200 --> 01:12:43,439 Speaker 1: which means in my country, means they're not working class 1328 01:12:43,520 --> 01:12:46,519 Speaker 1: kids like me and almost everybody else in British rock 1329 01:12:46,640 --> 01:12:48,840 Speaker 1: was in the in the twentieth century. And that's my 1330 01:12:48,960 --> 01:12:53,800 Speaker 1: real concern. If, um, you know, the ability to have 1331 01:12:53,800 --> 01:12:56,559 Speaker 1: a career in music or any creative industry just becomes 1332 01:12:56,560 --> 01:13:00,080 Speaker 1: the preserve of the the upper middle class, then you 1333 01:13:00,120 --> 01:13:04,200 Speaker 1: will really lose lose something important in the in the 1334 01:13:04,240 --> 01:13:08,479 Speaker 1: experience of life for for our young people. You've been 1335 01:13:08,520 --> 01:13:11,840 Speaker 1: listening to Billy Bragg on the Bob Left Sets podcast. 1336 01:13:12,320 --> 01:13:15,040 Speaker 1: We could literally go on for hours, both through his 1337 01:13:15,160 --> 01:13:18,840 Speaker 1: catalog and through politics, but we don't want to wear 1338 01:13:19,200 --> 01:13:22,320 Speaker 1: either the audience or Billy himself out. Billy's been wonderful 1339 01:13:22,360 --> 01:13:23,840 Speaker 1: to have you here. Thank you very much for having me. 1340 01:13:23,880 --> 01:13:26,600 Speaker 1: But I've been very very interesting. Okay, A lot of 1341 01:13:26,640 --> 01:13:28,320 Speaker 1: stuff that we touched, a lot of stuff that we 1342 01:13:28,360 --> 01:13:31,719 Speaker 1: have in touch. But you've certainly been very stimulating question. 1343 01:13:31,920 --> 01:13:35,160 Speaker 1: I'm a big believer that one person can impact society. 1344 01:13:35,680 --> 01:13:39,439 Speaker 1: You know, we're seeing that with AOC in America changing 1345 01:13:39,479 --> 01:13:43,040 Speaker 1: the debate, and musicians used to be the people who 1346 01:13:43,040 --> 01:13:46,760 Speaker 1: impacted society most not right now that we can hope 1347 01:13:46,760 --> 01:13:49,880 Speaker 1: it happens again, Well, the thing is happening, just finish off. 1348 01:13:50,240 --> 01:13:53,240 Speaker 1: Is the fan about IOC is she is organized. The 1349 01:13:53,360 --> 01:13:55,080 Speaker 1: key is if you want to change the world, you 1350 01:13:55,120 --> 01:13:58,120 Speaker 1: can't just sing about it. You gotta get organized. That's 1351 01:13:58,120 --> 01:14:02,200 Speaker 1: the key thing about IOC And for all the work 1352 01:14:02,360 --> 01:14:06,479 Speaker 1: I do in the end, in my experience, only the audience, 1353 01:14:06,760 --> 01:14:09,240 Speaker 1: only the audience really can change the world by going 1354 01:14:09,240 --> 01:14:11,559 Speaker 1: out there collectively and working together. And AOC is a 1355 01:14:11,600 --> 01:14:16,040 Speaker 1: really good example of someone who's an expression of the 1356 01:14:16,080 --> 01:14:19,240 Speaker 1: collective will of her people and hopefully of the American people. 1357 01:14:19,400 --> 01:14:21,360 Speaker 1: Let's just go back the book that you're writing. What 1358 01:14:21,400 --> 01:14:23,519 Speaker 1: are your plans for that that will be coming out 1359 01:14:23,600 --> 01:14:26,479 Speaker 1: in May maybe I think in August and the United 1360 01:14:26,479 --> 01:14:28,880 Speaker 1: States America. It's only it's like a pamphlet, it's fifteen 1361 01:14:28,880 --> 01:14:31,880 Speaker 1: th words, it's an essay. Really, that's just making the 1362 01:14:31,920 --> 01:14:36,240 Speaker 1: point that accountability ultimately is what's missing in this will 1363 01:14:36,280 --> 01:14:42,000 Speaker 1: be sold. It's by Favor and Favor. I'm British publishers. 1364 01:14:42,000 --> 01:14:44,599 Speaker 1: They published my skiffle book. They're doing a series of them. 1365 01:14:44,600 --> 01:14:47,120 Speaker 1: It's their nine Anniverse when they're doing a series of them, 1366 01:14:47,160 --> 01:14:48,760 Speaker 1: and they've asked me to write the first one. Do 1367 01:14:48,760 --> 01:14:51,759 Speaker 1: you remember who the other people are? The mostly musicians, 1368 01:14:52,280 --> 01:14:54,519 Speaker 1: mostly people working in the grave and will you be 1369 01:14:54,560 --> 01:14:59,320 Speaker 1: promoting it? Would indeed? Okay, till next time And listening 1370 01:14:59,400 --> 01:15:09,960 Speaker 1: a Billy Brow Go Bob Left Sets podcast m HM